Round Table 3- Laborers' Podcast

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00:09

Cling to the cross then put both arms around it Hold to the crucified and never let him go

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I'm a fresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever

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Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross

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Kyle I'll start talking Guys, welcome to the labors podcast as you can see

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This is a roundtable discussion and obviously from the past. This is part three. We had two others

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Usually I like to have roundtable discussions. Just talking whatever And people, you know, it's very chill discussion as you see.

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We don't really have a Format this time usually labors has a format. So Yeah, so Robert do you want to say anything before we kick off the intro to the labors conference

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No, I'm looking forward stick with us Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

01:25

Network Join us as together. We strive to grow up together in all things into Christ subscribe and follow the truth in love

01:34

Network on Facebook YouTube rumble Spotify and iTunes now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast

01:48

All right So be weird cuz whenever I say labor stuff, I think

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Rob's gonna host but uh, all right guys, welcome. Welcome So labor is part roundtable.

02:00

How's everyone doing tonight? Bob no waving We making it

02:06

Yeah, so basically the topic of tonight

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For people watching today. I put in the chat look like multiple times Basically is how different denominations

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Approach scripture, you know their agreements their differences, you know presuppositions are added

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And also, how do they approach church history slash? Tradition and you know, is there an authority there?

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And so, you know, I wanted to kind of talk about that I Want to really say

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I told Rob before we you guys joined I wanted to start off basically with our agreements and then we can kind of flow from there and kind of get into our the juicy part of the video where we talk about disagreements and how you know, we go through that but But yeah, basically

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One thing I can think of is that we we as Christians right we as believers There's different denominations represented here tonight

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But we as believers we approach scripture as this we all can agree

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This is the Word of God. This is the infallible Word of God. This is the inerrant Word of God and we believe that it is for You know people today and forever right

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God's Word is forever, right Jesus Christ has said Heaven or shall pass away, but my word is forever, right?

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And so we believe when we're reading the Bible, we believe that this is truly the

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Word of God and it is powerful, right? The Holy Spirit works through the word. And so I think that's one thing for me

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That's one thing I see as our agreement is where we can kind of flow from there and start from there

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Do they want to add to that? They basically Where our agreements lie first, do they want to add to that?

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Well, would it be helpful to kind of state where we're all coming from around the room? Yeah. Yeah, so I'll start off me

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Me Elias of reformed Catholic I just changed my name to from the reformed Korean to now reformed

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Catholic because obviously, you know me Anglican Obviously, I have to have you know being very proud of Catholic but The reason why

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I changed it because you know now me being into becoming Anglican We all should be

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Bereans, you know We also be striving to be Bereans right searching through the scriptures, right? And testing everything with the word and in doing so we are being good

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Catholics as that right? We are the true Catholics, right Rome We believe they're not right.

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We believe they're there this gets Maddox. We believe we're the true Catholics us as Protestants And so yeah, I'm coming from an

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Anglican background a warm Anglican tradition not background I haven't grown up in Anglicanism, but yeah

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Probably have the the Presby position pretty well cornered. I'm kind of Presby I lean that way

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But I'm still kind of non -denom and I'm congregationalist and we want to use the Puritan terminology

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But I'm I'm kind of a unicorn I'm almost half and half and I'm Presby in a lot of ways

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But I still have a little bit of that non -denominational streak All right,

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I guess I'll go next. I'm Troy and I am Baptist. I am just a

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Baptist I am a reformed Baptist nonetheless, so I do see importance of certain things in church history mainly being rooted in like the

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Protestant Reformation But my emphasis would be heavily on Scripture Yeah, and the regulative.

05:44

Yeah regulative principle Okay, I would consider myself a reformed

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Baptist in a SBC church I Would probably consider myself.

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I was raised Southern Baptist Still affiliated with Southern Baptist.

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They're probably more Non -denominational gospel centered

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Bible centered Can Dan hear us

06:16

Can y 'all hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah, you gotta put all your qualifiers you gotta put all your qualifiers on the damn because you're like Presby plus, right?

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I Didn't been on the channel before So I think pretty much my audience knows who he is

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Obviously, I think you're seeing from your channel as well, right Rob truth and love. Yeah Yeah, okay.

06:49

Are you telling me you're you're still in my co -host man? No, no I'm just saying he's been on my channel for just you know, such as you and you know majority.

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Well Tyler has yeah So yeah, I'm the one that started the whole debate over the

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Lord's Supper when you had me on We've been working on this for like two years now because I was on your podcast

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Yep Yeah, so, you know, basically we have all these different denominations being represented here and obviously like I said

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Kind of want to start off with with our agreements and where we can flow from there and then then like I said

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What people came here for, you know, basically what we are our differences and how do we approach that? So, yeah, basically like I said, we're

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Is there anything anyone wants to add from what I said where you know? We believe that the Word of God the

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Bible is is inerrant right and fallible and it is It is powerful and Holy Spirit works through that General anyone want to add to it kind of what

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I said before or it's all it's also perspicuous Which means it is clear on the things that we need to know in order to be saved

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Amen, it's it's sufficiently clear that we can know God and know how to have the forgiveness of our sins in Jesus Christ Amen I Think it summed it up and then use the important word there though the sufficiency of Scripture I think

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I think we agree on the sufficiency and the relevance of Scripture, but it but the sufficiency of Scripture is important and insufficiency in In all manners of truth, you know, which is echoing the same thing just a little bit different I'd throw in Just due to what we're talking about tonight

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That I'd say that every one of us believes that church history is important to know to know something about Yeah, right because we all agree

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Scripture is Sufficient right and especially force out like Dan said for salvation, right?

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And that's one thing where I think that kind of brings us together as one just as Protestants in general, right?

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We believe right Rome Disagrees with us and saying Scripture isn't sufficient for salvation, right?

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You need the you need the church you need this you need some a lot of other traditions and whereas we as that's kind of one of the

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Calling cards for Protestants where we believe Scripture is sufficient for salvation, right? You for what you need to be saved you can find it in the

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Word of God, right? And that's that's one thing we can all agree on We do we all agree on solo script or the term solo script or?

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hmm, I Mean by phrase by Scripture alone by the Bible Doctrine that states that the

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Bible is the only source of authority for Christian faith and practice. Yes Well, it's definitely our only infallible authority

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Definitely only infallible authority. Like I said, like where it's sufficient for salvation and it's definitely infallible, right?

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It's an errand, right? There's there's other authorities like, you know, you have church authority, right?

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You have your people Reason why you can put people on the church discipline because it's church authority, right?

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But that's not infallible, right? We believe so suit or is it only infallible authority? All the other authorities submit

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Church authority though is from Scripture, right? Right and it submits to that it submits to Scripture, right?

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Yeah That's what I'm saying. So that's where you come back on the script or that everything Everything is checks and balance of everything is back to the foundation of Scripture as far as authoritative

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Whatever we say or we believe Should even in disagreement because there can be disagreement in interpretation grappling of Application, but it's still no matter where we land

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Should still come back that we believe what we believe because this is what we see in the scriptures

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Yeah, is that a fair statement for everybody? And I think that way we're not Anybody that watches this would understand that Even in our disagreements.

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It's not necessarily Rooted in just opinion, you know what? I mean? Like like it would say my view of Scripture on this is and your view of Scripture on this is

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I think that might come to a place where we do have a little rub later not to get into that but where Some some may hold church tradition as more as not equal authoritative with Scripture The church tradition does have value as far as authority or Scripture might be silent on things church tradition you know then carries authority in there, but So anyways,

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I'm not throwing it out there I'm just saying that right me some slight differences in there, but I think solo script tour is a is an important Phrase ology that we can all kind of rally around to a degree as Scripture being the final ultimate authority

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Yeah, and you guys probably all agree with this where it's in the 30 at 30 and articles, right? Basically people who don't know to kind of sum it up.

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It's our it's Anglicans confession It's an Anglican confession of faith. Whereas one thing we

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It's in there is where it says, um drawn a blank Anything that is repugnant to the

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Word of God, right anything that's so clear contradicting to the Word of God We must we must reject it. I think

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I think we can all agree on that just on that statement, right? anything Clearly just contradicting what's in the word

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Should be rejected Yeah, yeah, I Wasn't I was gonna bring up the solos as well since you're

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Basically, your question is where where do we find agreement? I would also include

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I Mean this could take the whole program Just just discussing the the primary doctrines

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Where there's no negotiation, but the throw in though the other solos You know solo scriptura, solo fidei, solo gratia, grace alone, faith alone

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For the glory of God alone in Christ alone And we talked about solo scriptura, yeah

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Even to get out of the The the Reformation era we could look at like the Apostles Creed and more or less be on the same page there we all believe in God the

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Father Almighty a maker of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord who is conceived of Who's conceived of the

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Holy Ghost born of the Virgin Mary Suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified dead and buried and on the third day rose from the dead da da da da da

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We're all on board there. We're on board with the Jesus is one with the Father that there's not

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There's not a hierarchy with the Trinity, but they are co -equal in substance co -equal and majesty so on and so forth we're

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United on those early creeds of the church as well. Yeah Yeah, could that also differentiates differentiates us or separates us kind of tongue -tied here from other movements that Kind of came after like the

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Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses and right that they have a different view of who God is

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And the Trinity, right? So like we are definitely Apostles Creed and I seen

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Creed Athanasian Creed affirming Believers here, right and you can link like Tyler just said we can all agree on these core doctrines that these creeds layout for the

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Christian faith and one thing to note with some of those offshoots is The philosophy they have when it comes to church history

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I was talking with a guy from the Church of Christ a couple years ago and His view on church history was almost entirely negative

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That church history has largely been this this bad thing that it's like this this demonic monolith or something

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And it was his view that the church went apostate at Nicaea so what 312 ad the church was inventing a new gospel

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When they said that Jesus was God Well as we would prop more or less and there's a little bit of nuance with where we would

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Put that line with church history, but we would say that The progression of the church has been marginally good that Jesus is building his church

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He's he is guiding his people into all truth and righteousness and while there have been

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Stumbling blocks along the way and there have been challenges and there have been Obstacles and there have been we might even see setback.

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We've had to relearn some things over the years the general trajectory has been more or less upwards as the church has grown as it has

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Worked through errors that has worked through problems in an endeavor to better follow

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Christ Yeah One thing

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I want to bring up and one thing kind of also inspired me to bring up this roundtable was the

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Podcast series you Rob and Dan did well you do but then the latest episode you guys did

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I think it was right meditation of scripture or spiritual meditation was it or the meditation of scripture and I think

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I Think majority or at least half of that was me, you know

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Scriptural authority and how does that play out within the life of the believer? Right, you know, you have a person I think even

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Dan use the example right like it's not just me Me my Bible under a tree or you have you have these authorities above you right the pastor, right?

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because if if you're believing something that's You think it's in scripture, but it's obviously clearly not in scripture and your pastor tries to you know

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Guide you and hey, let me kind of correct you on that. But yet like oh, no, it's it's it's it's but I think it's a

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Scripture. It's me. And so it's not now you're kind of going what's What's adjourned her interpretation over his over the pastors where you know,

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God has placed elders over us, right? It's in his word. He has placed over us for a reason, right?

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So that way we cannot be tossed from every doctrine every wind of doctrine that comes along that kind of got me inspired to Start this because you know did how that plays out in different denominations kind of looks a little different in certain ways

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Y 'all agree on that Like there's like Tyler was using the word congregational, you know, and then there's there's

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And then in modern times there's there's like elder led which is sort of a mixture between Elder authority, but also congregationalism and then then there is elder ruled

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Which would be very few things voted on, you know by the congregation Unless it's in a very important thing and just like we say in Acts a few things like when they call together to Nominate deacons for the first time, you know, they called everybody together, you know

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So there was there was times that the whole congregation was called together So I think eldership is a is of important factor, but I was raised in churches that Never even discussed the term elder

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Just pastors and deacons is all that we ever had and the deacons carried the role of elder and deacon

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Which means one of the other would suffer, you know as far as the strictest definition most of the time the deaconing or serving, you know of the local body is what suffered because then the deacons were were

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Were bridled with elder responsibility, you know, and and those kind of things and so I'm thankful for a movement across all of our denominations and especially

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Baptist denomination now that there is a very clear movement to Re -establishing a better biblical model of plurality of elders no matter if it's some kind of mix of that You know because a lot of those churches were were were very much

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Congregationally led churches even though there were deacons in place Like I was raised in churches that you had to vote on every everything that was ever done

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You know, and so I'm thankful for a healthier move in the body of Christ that I see today especially in Baptist circles, you know and a lot of more of our liturgical churches have remained and I think we're very accurate in continuing to keep elders and our reformed churches and things of that nature, but but among The circles that I'm in at least

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I'm seeing a move in that direction of establishing a plurality of elders Still having deacons still having a pastor

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And still congregation being involved. So I think it's good. I think I see a great agreement in that as a whole though Yeah, let's see the churches

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I came up in I'm not even sure we had deacons we had the staff Yeah, sure

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Sure. Yeah, I came up in Pentecostal domination Church a guy where they were called like yeah, like staff or officials, right and then you had

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You had some form of elder Definitely a lead pastor because we just called him pastor And then the bishop right the overseer of overlooking a region of churches

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But yeah, it was definitely just officials and they were they were voted in to the congregation So it was kind of makes a little congregationalism there.

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So definitely grew up in that context so Do y 'all it seems like Kind of cover the ground or an agreement.

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So y 'all want to start getting into more of our disagreements To get the really ball rolling So it really in disagreements in turn, obviously

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We I think we all established where these disagreements are definitely Not primary doctrines in terms of the gospel, right?

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We believe we're all brothers in Christ here, right these disagreements that we have when it comes to scripture and then you know, what how does you know church tradition and Authorities come into play when approaching scripture

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But we believe you know, we already said with where these are these are not salvific Issues or our kitchen say disagreements that we're discussing here tonight

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So yeah, but basically Let me say one more thing on unity. Um, I think we're where we have

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Where we have made it to as a group is One and one of the things that we hold on to as a group is that In disagreement we we hold to civility and we want to model

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Christ Attitude love for one another and I appreciate

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I like what Jace Jace Buck has said he just had an episode with with Andrew Rappaport and they were talking about Primary secondary and tertiary issues and and how to discuss those with with other people and I like what was said there that When you're when you're having a discussion with a brother or sister in Christ and you and you disagree

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And I think I think we landed on a good position earlier where we say the scripture is our ultimate authority, right

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Is our ultimate infallible authority? That's what we all look to but then when we're discussing our

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Interpretation we can say to one another I see your consistency But I disagree and that discussion happens with civility and I think that's a

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Lot of a good description of where we've landed as a group is that our ultimate authority is scripture

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God's were to us and as we discuss these issues We we see the points that our brothers are trying to make try to understand them from other perspectives

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Even though we disagree, but we do it civilly Yeah And Basically to go from there is basically, you know, like like, you know,

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I think I think it'd be best to kind of Like I mentioned before we're we are all representing our each nomination here in tradition within Christianity One thing

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I can say obviously for Anglicans right Anglicanism. We definitely look to as Right, we all like I just said we believe that scripture is the only infallible and Aaron right authority but we look to We definitely look to the church and the ancient church for the church fathers, especially pre great schism

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Church from for helping us with this with with interpretive with interpretation and so That's one thing

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I can say I can kind of we can kind of if if people want clarification on that What you know, how does that what is that?

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What does that look like? you know like and I can kind of give an example whereas In fact,

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I think I've talked about briefly one time where my Anglican Church I go to now the former

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Rector, which is who don't know lead lead elder, right? he said that he went to another church, but The former elder used to be a

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Roman Catholic In fact, he was going to seminary to be a Roman Catholic priest, but in his seminary he was bringing up Things like hey, you know, why do we you say this is a you know, like the

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Marian dog was like the mayor But things you got to believe about Mary. Oh, it's not you're not saved He's it but yet we don't see this within the early church, right one.

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He doesn't see it in scripture But yeah, he does also see you in the early church, right? He doesn't see that early church making this dogmatic to believe for salvation, right?

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You know, he's bringing up these objections to his professors and all that and it's one by one He's bringing up these objections and they told him

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I think one professor told him I say Based on the objections you're giving he's you're either gonna be an

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Anglican or you can go into Eastern Orthodoxy Well, obviously generally naturally he knew

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Eastern Orthodoxy They have their own dogmas and what they believe in what you have to believe to be saved So obviously he saw

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Anglicanism, right? And he saw the consistency with the word and what you know, what what what he believes what the

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Drought church history has so he came in Anglican. He ended being an Anglican priest For many years even till today

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So that's what's one way we as Anglicans right we look to the ancient church to kind of guide us right we and one

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Analogy I heard where We we yes, we all submit to the scriptures, but we bring the

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Saints with us when we're reading the scriptures, right? We're reading what we might go to this church for you know

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Just church father or this we might go to this What does this council say about this right if you have a if you're reading through scripture, right?

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Like like for instance, right if you have someone going going through scripture be at there They're saying

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I don't think Jesus is God. They're just giving a wild example Obviously it's in the scriptures, but yet throughout church history that's already been dealt with right we have we have we have we have a whole council right then

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I seen Council of Nicaea dealing with Aryanism, right? They were they were denying the deity of Christ And so in fact majority of of church authority in that during that time period wasn't

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Aryan, right? They were denying the deity of Christ you have Aryan bishops and priests, but yet, you know, you have a

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I think it's Athanasius Correct. He was kind of one of the few right? and so in during that to stand up and to kind of preach truth right to teach orthodoxy right the

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Trinity and What we see in the word and so that that's an authority that that's that that's a real authority

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Yes, but it's that authority is kind of still pointing to scripture because what what is what is Athanasius points?

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He pointed to the word to any any but he also had help like like because obviously the word

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Trinity isn't in the Bible But you get a you get you get a Someone from church history like I think it was

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Hertulian He didn't come up with the he came up with the word that like that he coined the phrase Trinitas, which is

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Trinity, but he didn't come up with the doctrine the doctrine comes in the word, right? But he used he you know, he's so he's

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Throughout church history you start you see people. Yes use the word as they're only infallible

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But yet you see you see them also go to other authorities to say hey these other authorities agree with what

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I'm saying from what? I'm seeing in the word Right, and that's how famous there's that famous phrase from Tertullian.

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What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem? Yeah In that age where you still had the

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Greek philosophers where you could see somebody quote Seneca or Aristotle as their form farming their theology, which is something that Augustine was accused of doing a time or two

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On Tertullian took the stance that well we start with the Bible To the point that what does

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Aristotle have to do with the Bible? What does Aristotle have to do with the temple? And that is very much where we all land is what does

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Pagan philosophy have to do with how we understand the Bible because the Bible itself is truly sufficient

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To make God's ways known So So one thing

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I want to throw out there is is a word that Tyler just used is is the term philosophy

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Because what we have in a lot of ancient scholars they they were as much philosophers

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Probably more philosophy than they were exegeters of Scripture Because of the limitation of Scripture throughout culture in general

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And so that's one of the reasons that I do Obviously look to early church fathers.

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We all do as a role of authority Anybody would be foolish not to but what

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I would also say is that you will find massive Inconsistencies in all church fathers writings and so it's easy to pick and choose like what fits from church fathers but what we see even if you read holistic writings of Augustine or Tertullian or even you know

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John Calvin even you know, I mean all those guys Martin Luther where they began is not where they ended and there was a consistency growth in all of the writings and and Progression even in their own faith and understandings of doctrine and development.

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And so just because something's old doesn't mean it's better With the tools that we have today to study in exegete

30:20

Scripture We have far more resource at our fingertips in just moments than then a

30:27

Charles Spurgeon would or anybody anybody that we'd want to quote that that would be even

30:33

Early early church fathers all the way up to Reformation guys all the way up to a Charles Spurgeon Which I wouldn't consider him church father, but a great preacher, you know

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I mean obviously a great leader in Christianity through that time. And so so that's why

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I struggle with Authority and tradition based on what it was rooted on was their understanding at that time

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And so so now even we I think even our translations and our commentaries and the things that we have now are even more accurate because of the discovery of things like Dead Sea Scrolls and And so many of the things that have come in and now having a better holistic

31:12

Picture of even ancient text even more than they did and so so that's again

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I'm just telling you guys why at times I struggle I did a lot of my senior thesis and seminary and those kind of things on on the

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Reformers and read, you know thousands of pages, you know on the early early

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Reformers and just watching their progression and then like I like Jonathan Edwards who

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Was a part of the credited with leading the Great Awakening Obviously could exegete scripture, but if you read his writings

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It was much more philosophy writing than it was just exegeting of scripture and so so that's something

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I think we have to take into consideration when we're looking at church history and Looking at that early church fathers is is the influence of philosophy and what they were dealing with at that time

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Are not exactly the same issues that we're dealing with today Like for example, like we're not having to write or preach against specifically

32:12

Gnosticism or great Gnostic movements it is out there, but it's not necessarily an issue in our local churches and those kind of things and so So again, that's that's that is a part of my struggle with with modern -day

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Christianity and a lot of young men that are coming through Seminaries and coming through trainings and that kind of stuff

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I hear a lot of young men quoting a lot of dead scholars, but not quoting as much scripture

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And and I think that that in our culture could be could be a dangerous thing because then you have these camps

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And aren't necessarily rooted in scripture. You have camps that are rooted in well I'm a

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Calvinist because of what John Calvin said Well today if I tell you I'm a Calvinist is because of what the

32:55

Book of Romans says But what's the Book of Romans, but John Calvin did have a good explanation of the

33:00

Book of Romans You know what I'm saying? But there's things that John Calvin believed that I don't believe you know that I don't hold to all of his teachings

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And so so I just think it's important that we put that in in context At least that's where I'm at guys, you know of some of the struggle that I've had

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In my research of even early church fathers and early church traditions So just wanted to voice that.

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I don't know if that's a major difference as much as it is just Where I'm at I don't I don't hold as heavy authority to tradition or early church fathers

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I think it's important. I would never say it's not important. I would not say it's not a valid resource but the word authority

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I think would be less in the circles that I'm in it would not be necessarily authoritative But definitely respected and loved and cherished and important I Let me let me throw a question to the day in an alliance.

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I heard a great. I don't want to say great I heard an interesting phrase.

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I think it was today. I heard the phrase speaking of Presbyterian and Baptist This is what they said they said that President Presbyterians would consider themselves reformata and Baptists consider themselves simple reformata

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Where and what I think he meant by that was The Presbyterians have the

34:28

Westminster Confession and they don't need You know, it doesn't need to improve upon there

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They're they've reformed themselves from you know The Roman Catholic Church and they got to where they want to be but then the

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Baptists are still simple reformata I'm reformed yet reforming continuing to reform and see the need for that.

34:55

So Would you guys say that and I don't know if you guys agree with that or not? But would you say that the

35:02

Westminster Confession or the 39 articles? Could they be improved upon is there were forming that could happen?

35:10

there in those confessions of faith You can go first in yeah, of course you can

35:17

In fact this happened a few times You came over to America and a couple of the articles a couple of the chapters in the

35:25

Westminster Confession. They did change They didn't like me more. So got rid of them

35:32

Anytime the Anytime you come across Study where where you find out?

35:40

Hey, we've missed the boat on this point you go back and you change the confession if You figure out that you missed the boat because of what scripture says

35:52

It's kind of your confessions are your guideposts like like they were like bumper guards because your scriptures infallible

36:00

We're not so as we go go to To interpret things, you know, we're gonna bounce around inside of of our confessions and scripture

36:12

But where's too far and that's why we have these things set up so we don't go outside of those bounds So if we find out that maybe we put our boundary a little bit too far out on this one side

36:23

Tighten it up and we've done that before a couple times. Some people disagree with it.

36:28

We will don't but That's the thing about a subordinate standard. It's it's subordinate to the

36:35

Word of God It's really just saying here is what we as as the

36:40

Presbyterian Church believe that the scriptures say That's why when you get a copy, I don't think I have one close by.

36:46

I got a copy of the Westminster Confession and it has I Don't know it's pages and pages, but it's got this little bit of the

36:55

Westminster Confession in the bottom part of the page Like that it's just scripture references and the scripture where they pulled that from So, yeah the top portion you change that As much as it needs to the bottom portion stays the same because that's what

37:11

God gave us Nobody that's part of the and that's part of the story behind the

37:16

Savoy declaration. Is that attempt to? Areas that they felt could be improved upon in that congregationalist vein where it was a little more

37:25

Congregational a minded as opposed to the the Presbytery But they actually added a chapter to they felt better emphasize the grace of God and they they reworded some phrases throughout pertaining to you like Christian Liberty and some of these things and The Savoy is very much in that same vein as the

37:47

Westminster doesn't deviate Incredibly far, but there are some clear differences where they felt things were a little more precise.

37:55

I think Mm -hmm. I'll say this for the 1689 That's the confession

38:02

I used 1689 London Baptist Confession and Essentially what it was is we're gonna keep the same language as the

38:11

Westminster as the Savoy and Please quit killing us. We're not the

38:17

Anabaptists that took over months Um, and so really that was more or less it's you know of like look this is

38:27

Good doctrine to be held. Here's our chapter of God of the Trinity of justification of saving faith of you know

38:34

And you run through the list And and so you start to say, okay. Well, they they are like us right?

38:41

It is the same God is the same gospel But they don't want to dip their babies and so You know, what do you do with that?

38:52

You know, it's like I well, you know, we'll we'll let them live now I guess maybe a little bit So to kind of touch on more

39:02

Lutheran articles yeah, so basically the third article is that's really more of a

39:11

Different definitely different from the Westminster. It's not as precise as Westminster And I add that that was definitely more for That was on purpose right there are articles.

39:22

Um, I think I've said this multiple times on my channel where and The third articles you definitely had

39:31

Nuances within the Church of England right Anglicans and you had you had a lot of Lutheran leaning

39:38

Anglicans you had Reform leaning Anglicans right and you had more of the the angle Catholic that were really so clinging on things to Rome and then so with the three articles

39:50

It was really mainly in my opinion. This is where you get the term via media and I think the original context of the term via media right the middle way is speaking of between Geneva and Where Luther's at Germany basically

40:10

Lutheran and reformed that's basically I think the original context of the term via media because then you have the

40:15

Queen of England at the time after Bloody Mary right Bloody Mary which she brought back the Church of England under Rome But after that her half -sister

40:22

King in rule and she was definitely a Lutheran leaning Anglican right and she was brought she considered herself the church

40:29

Protestant and she she she broke off from Rome And so that there you have in you have that term via media where you had a lot of reform

40:38

Meaning England anyway, the point is is that you have a lot of broader Interpretations of the third articles right and not only that you have the book of homilies, right?

40:49

You had the formularies and stuff like that. And so whereas You have Anglicans over time

40:56

Might have a different interpretation of what this means in the third articles or the homilies, right?

41:02

And in one example, in fact, I think we brought it up in my channel the Anglican roundtable

41:09

Within the ACNA, I think the 2019 Because in the the orders to baptize to baptize people right and especially the infants

41:17

I think it's in the book of homilies if I'm correct whereas It says, you know seeing now that this back this child is regenerate right this baby is regenerate, right?

41:29

That's in the that's it's in a 1662, but I think in the 2019 they took it out. It's not there

41:35

You can't find it and where you I think it was Jeremiah Who's a part of our network? It's I think he said

41:41

I think you've said a good quote wherever you see something Missing or lacking that was there before in a document that means it's evidence that what it was debated on, right?

41:50

It was debated on and where it may have been taken out and where you you get some, you know a group of people where they think

41:56

I think hey We should take that out and maybe they had that mindset of reform or the simple monitor and always are forming

42:03

Oh, maybe because they thought maybe that was too much of a certain way Obviously the

42:08

Lutheran leaning Anglicans disagreed with that because I would see what their view on baptism But um, but yeah

42:15

So you have that and but even within the third articles even to into modern times of that happening

42:21

Do you have that your copy of the 39 articles in front of you right now? Yes, I have the 2019

42:29

So I got a question. I'm looking at my copy In Article 6 on the sufficiency of the

42:37

Holy Scriptures for salvation. Does yours list the apocrypha as canonical? What article is that again?

42:45

I'm sorry article 6 Holy Scripture contain all things necessary to salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be provided Thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an article of the faith or be thought requested or necessary to salvation

43:04

In the name of the Holy Scriptures. We do Understand those canonical books of the Old and New Testament of whose authority was never any doubt in the church

43:13

And it goes into the canonical books And the other books the church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners

43:22

But yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine Are these following in it was third book of Ezra's fourth book?

43:32

Thomas Judith The rest of the book of Esther book of wisdom. So the apocrypha

43:38

So it's helpful and useful for the church, but it's not for the establishment of doctrine right the rule of life, right?

43:45

So my copy does that but it puts first and second estrus under canonical

43:51

But it was third and fourth under the apocrypha which which book company what year mine is the 1979 edition

43:59

I believe that me. Yeah, cuz again like where you have again like I mentioned you have throughout and throughout history, like I said, it even goes up to modern times where with the edition is 2019 the 1979 everything you said and so you have people taking certain

44:17

Changing certain things right and do you have that they that group of Anglicans probably thought it would be

44:23

Canonical, right? And I think I think you there's some Anglicans that believe the apocrypha is canon

44:29

Whereas I agree with the 2019 would Dandis said where it's it's helpful, but to establish doctrine especially for to establish to say oh you this is actually for salvation

44:39

Well, where'd you get that? Well, I got this from this book. Well, that's that's a non canonical book You can't require someone for salvation if you're getting it from there.

44:47

So that's an Episcopal Church thing. Not an a CNA Thing right? Yeah a

44:52

CNA is definitely Yes, 2019 is the approved edition for the a

44:58

CNA it's the I'm learning To kind of bring it back to church tradition

45:10

Just as for I'll state my my my view of things

45:18

Yeah, I think Throughout a lot of church history. We see we see Rome, right?

45:23

And we see people that are that are in Rome, but not necessarily of Rome if that makes any sense

45:29

Throughout like people that we can say, okay. Yeah, that dude was Born again, you know, he didn't drink the

45:35

Kool -Aid But All of this before the printing press Luther kind of kicks off the

45:43

Protestant Reformation not that there was other people, you know Not discounting like Wycliffe and and like the

45:48

Waldensians and and the others that are there But yet Luther kind of kicks off the the

45:57

Protestant Reformation and it's and it's unstoppable due to the Inventing invention of the

46:03

Gutenberg printing press, right? It's just it spreads like wildfire. It's not something that can be contained and you see him separating from pointing out the error of the

46:16

Roman Catholic Church and then you see Geneva also pointing out different era error of the

46:23

Roman Catholic Church you see Zwingli you see, you know, you see all these different sects pointing out the error in so much of it right to where even some of the

46:33

Protestant Reformation is is Augustine's debate against Augustine right like this is mm -hmm and so What that instantly kind of takes me to is

46:47

I mentioned the regulative principle earlier? to where if If it's not listed plainly in Scripture What is?

46:59

Obviously, these are these are traditions based on Scripture But how can we can we trust it?

47:06

Right? Because yes, I use the 1689 London Baptist Confession But that is because I've become to you know, these views from Scripture Versus you know if I thought the

47:19

Bible taught infant baptism You know, then I would I would go with the Westminster or the

47:25

Savoy more than likely I'd probably be with the Savoy, but nonetheless it is

47:32

My interpretation of Scripture that is then grabbing my confession and not necessarily the other way around And There's a reason we put the confessions in the back

47:45

Exactly. Exactly. And so what role does does church tradition play in?

47:51

in all of these because mine is gonna be not not much right like as I believe brother

47:57

Jonathan said, you know, like Athanasius has some weird stuff Augustine had some weird stuff Luther had some really weird stuff and we can't

48:08

You know go on that way. And so at what point do we go? Okay. Well, I can't necessarily find this

48:15

But we're gonna hold to it because they did I Mean Augustine more or less thought that Christians ought to be celibate and if you walked it out, we'd go extinct

48:27

Yeah, let me just throw this in here to you guys I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there are in modern -day

48:34

America. Okay, modern -day America of a large number

48:39

I don't know if I would go as far as to say a majority but I would Because I don't have statistics to back it up But just in my mind even a majority of mainstream

48:47

Christians would have no idea anything about confessions It's not even something used in mainstream church now confessions are obsolete in in mainstream church like Southern Baptist the largest denomination in the country

49:04

Never mentions any of the confessions in 1689 or or Westminster or any of them not simply the message

49:11

I mean if they have their Baptist faith and message, but even in that it's not credal You know, they would not consider it a creed.

49:18

It's more of a Organizational document on how to deal with Things but it was still wouldn't be considered a creed because he catches everybody.

49:28

It's so broad. It's designed that way you really couldn't even consider it a creed because it's not a You know

49:35

It's not written in even in credal and they keep fighting over how to interpret it now that it basically has no use

49:42

Because they keep having to form committees in the SBC and what this word means or what that word means

49:47

It's it's the same thing in the Presbyterian Church, though Yeah, you have people still trying to figure out what what the

49:54

Westminster is talking about our our Senate has a committee out right now discussing the validity of Female deacons, which is one of our sticking points.

50:05

Yeah There we did it was the last the last Senate we had

50:11

They got together and talked about, you know, it should a pastor be able to Visiting another church be allowed to sing a song.

50:19

That's not a song There's things that we still don't know and understand and that that's it's because of those things aren't

50:28

Primarily authoritative. They're secondary. They're they're supportive. They're Yeah, well in going on what you're saying

50:40

Dan is like all of us are dealing now with With inconsistencies within our own denominations, so even we're talking disagreements among ourselves but just like the

50:51

Southern Baptists have have had at least one official split in the last 10 to 15 years with the

50:57

CBF and Southern Baptists and then now we're we're we're not

51:02

Officially, but we're in arguments of women pastors are not women pastors, which majority of Conservative SBC are no no women pastors, but we see the debate of ordaining homosexuals, you know in the

51:17

Presbyterian and the Methodist and in Episcopal's and like all all the so everybody's in Divide as well a lot.

51:26

So I think even we're talking about disagreements It's not just among ourselves because we don't necessarily represent a holistic picture of our entire denomination either

51:35

And I think I think that's kind of why it's important to look at what the Holy Spirit's been revealing to the church

51:41

Across the board throughout history, right? And then when you find something that's been agreed upon throughout history, even if you don't really know why

51:51

You don't necessarily change it here's why Say it say there's a

51:59

Sign and sign says don't go past here and you don't know why it's there So you go past it and you do whatever it is that you're gonna do you come back and said you just go over there

52:10

I'm sure well, the reason that sign is there is because it's radioactivity now, you've got cancer and you're going to die You didn't know about it, but that's been the tradition of us for as long as we know that we don't go past this point

52:23

So that's why I think the role of tradition is in the church that even though We don't necessarily know why the church has set up a certain boundary at a certain point

52:35

We don't go past it unless we take some very serious Looks at what it is, and we actually understand why was this actually set up in the first place?

52:49

Come on If I may kind of add to that because I was gonna get into that whereas, you know

52:59

And again speaking for what the tradition of what I'm what I'm representing here today Anglican We definitely value a consensus throughout church history

53:09

Well, what did the church come together in and agree on like like Dan just said there's certain things you you see there and he made he make you just mean an example with what they signed of something whereas Let me let me get to a real example here

53:24

You but it's it's based on the evidence It's it's it's clear that throughout church in early church history and up until I would say his in hundreds

53:34

It's space. It's clear that the church agreed on infant baptism, right? They were baptizing babies, right?

53:40

It's it's it's clear that based on the evidence, right? It's it's very hard to see Every any evidence of where you see majority

53:48

Agreeing on not into baptism, right? You do see like some people like you see two trillion where he was disagreeing with infant baptism

53:55

But he believed in baptism regeneration. That's that's the reason why he said oh and also he didn't believe in baptism generation like Lutheran instead because he believed that if you sent after your baptism

54:05

That's something very bad and it has to be taken care of it It's your baptism doesn't cover something after and that's why he believed

54:12

Babies wait till even older I think even also he had something where like even if you have to get married first, too

54:18

I think it's something with that anyway But you do see a consensus where infant baptism is

54:25

Is there obviously you do you do see certain different expressions on what that is? What is going on in that right throughout throughout church history after that?

54:34

But you do see a consensus there and whereas Dan was saying where we if that is something

54:40

To be looked looked upon whereas Anglicans we look upon it as something serious, right? Because what does the

54:45

Bible say you the Holy Spirit will guide the church in truth, right? And whereas you see a consensus on that, you know, okay, we should listen to that We should listen to that to the church and what it's what it's been saying here on baptism

54:57

But also I mean one button right there on that. Yep So when you when you do when you say that though, that's a consensus of known church

55:07

That it's not a consensus worldwide And I think that's something that we have to consider

55:13

That's what I'm trying to say. Is that the writings that we have are in a very small region of the world versus what's going on in Africa and Asia and Europe and like other places and And so the writings of the ancient church are not a worldwide

55:36

Representation it is a representation of a group of people that actually had the availability of scholarship of study and organization

55:45

They are the things that have been preserved for us, right? Right, but it doesn't necessarily it's not but my point is this it's not something that's necessarily authoritative because when you look worldwide history

55:56

There's just the same thing that would other places in history that would say we never baptized babies in our culture and so so that's

56:06

That's something that's important to to consider and it was not until Roman Catholicism That it became mandate of infant baptism.

56:15

And so that's it's so that's what I'm trying to say. Is there's It's important.

56:21

Yes, that is a very important part of our church history and Plato and Credo you know, I mean are important things to talk about and understand why we believe and what we believe and how we parse that out and Regenerational baptism and all that kind of stuff that we we have talked about among ourselves for hours and hours and hours, but But like I said,

56:40

I think our worldview becomes really really narrow And if we're not careful of what and when you talk about what the

56:46

Holy Spirit is doing The Holy Spirit was not only working in that in that line that there are

56:54

There's huge things that are happening throughout the entire world that were not the known world of that time

57:01

I think I think Just to kind of piggyback off where where Jonathan was just as as he also mentioned earlier

57:09

You know just because something is is very early doesn't make it right, you know actually what we have, you know contained in the in the words of Scripture from the

57:19

Apostle Paul or from John or from Peter in Epistles like think about the the letter to the

57:26

Corinthians right both of them, you know here is a Church that the

57:32

Apostle Paul himself has planted You know, it's some of them Paul some of them with Apollos.

57:38

Yeah, but he goes Plants this church teaches them they have elders put in that more than likely the

57:46

Apostle Paul or Timothy or other very early Disciples with and they are quickly being rebuked within the first century within the canon of our

57:59

Scripture and so even with the guiding of the Apostles in the flesh and Of course the

58:08

Holy Spirit right because no one's gonna say that that church at that time didn't have the Holy Spirit right being Holy Spirit led

58:14

Christians we see grave errors right from fornication to The love of money we see all of it all throughout and so we see where they're actually being corrected in our

58:31

Scripture That very early witness and and so I just see that as something

58:38

To you know, okay. Well, here's the correction during the lifetime of the actual

58:43

Apostles And then of course the Apostles die out right no more

58:48

No more divine special revelation given

58:56

But yet You know, we're going to hold after them another 200 years as our standard for interpretation

59:05

Just seems a little little scary Mm -hmm We're saying is that that the

59:13

Holy same Holy Spirit that worked in the lifetime of the Apostles to make corrections on error continued to make corrections to error through those who weren't necessarily

59:21

Apostles throughout the rest of church history and That those corrections were then retained for us in history

59:29

We can go back and look and see and hold it up against Scripture and make sure that you know

59:34

Way off in left field somewhere so that that witness of the Holy Spirit through the church continues all throughout church history

59:44

Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, this is why we Even my name reform

59:49

Catholic, right? There's if there's there's gonna be need to for reform, right? We are fallen men, right?

59:57

We're sinners and you get Even in the in the Apostle time the errors kept in the church, but yet there's need for reform

01:00:04

There's need for correction, right? There's there's need that in which the Holy Spirit we believe is guiding right again, like for example where I mentioned him from a baptism because And this is where everybody me and me and Pastor Jonathan would disagree were

01:00:20

I believe and probably Dan would agree whereas it was worldwide right because If it was never contested right it was never disagreed on whenever you see something that's very

01:00:34

Where we is believed as error it always brought up as Something the church must talk about and for instance like it's some, you know, independent fundamental

01:00:43

Baptist say Oh Constantine That's where the infant Baptist started and constant. I see and all that but yet you actually there's evidence of a council in Africa I don't know if it's in Egypt or somewhere.

01:00:55

It's a local council It's not ecumenical, but they were talking about infant baptism and it was they will everyone agreeing was agreed

01:01:02

Yes baptize babies, but they were came together to okay When should we baptize is it right away after the rebirth eight days a month, you know?

01:01:10

How when do we baptize a baby? That that's that's clear evidence And as you go through church history, you get the western part of the church in the eastern part of the church, right?

01:01:20

throughout the world Not Rejecting that and for example where you do get an error like cuz like Aryan right

01:01:31

Aryan Arius was a priest, right? he was a person that was in some country some city some part of the world where he was a teacher and he was teaching

01:01:41

Aryanism and whereas it spread eventually just spread and There it became account had to be accounts we brought up because people were saying hey, you know

01:01:50

This is clearly against the scripture and if where you got Even like I said you consensus doesn't automatically mean right because like I said majority rule

01:01:59

During that time by the time counts and I see a majority of what was going on people a lot of majority was the

01:02:04

Aryans Majority of the church were like I said church church people presbyterians and bishops.

01:02:10

They were Aryan You And just to just affirm your lies, that's the point that I'm trying to make right

01:02:16

It's that just because there's something that's a consensus in church history doesn't make it right That we still have to go back in and to to scripture because again

01:02:26

Ancient guys were up and down moving around they were influenced by different philosophies and different things the

01:02:32

Aryan Philosophy Gnosticism so many so many different things snuck in crept in you know

01:02:38

And even Paul and Peter were writing about that, you know in the very beginning And and so I'm gonna affirm what you're saying, you know what

01:02:46

I mean? I get it and I'm not rejecting the right the necessity of Having those boundaries and those guardrails like how

01:02:53

Dan said that I'm not I'm not rejecting that at all But just to make sure there's a point of unity in the midst of discussion to make it clear that that is it really?

01:03:03

And I would throw in there like if we want to go back to ancient texts as close to the Apostles like 2nd century stuff

01:03:09

Like I've been reading the dedicate a lot more now to just just researching through that that was pre

01:03:14

You know, it's it's supposedly, you know where there is like that first formation

01:03:21

Here's formative things as you're doing church Here's how the early Apostles saw that that came through that, you know, and I think it's it's neat to read some of that But the infant baptism isn't isn't prescribed in in that it baptism is told how to do in that But it but infant baptism isn't anything there's not even a description or reference to it in in the in the earliest writings of the dedicate and some of those kind of things that are just 2nd century writings, so So anyways that but at the same time,

01:03:53

I'm not saying that that's that's the full measure of all of it but it's important that we

01:04:00

We just recognize coming back to our point of unity is we still have to come back and reference in the scripture because I don't think

01:04:09

Baptism of infants or not baptism of infants. I don't know that that's a salvific issue when we've got greater greater right sinful

01:04:19

Herit heretical things happening in among our denominations You know that are very important, you know, yeah

01:04:27

Yeah, yeah, go ahead drop I was just to say a few things I commend You know the the confessions that like the

01:04:35

Westminster that Dan hopes to For the for the reason that he gave tonight, you know

01:04:41

He talked about the here you have your your article within the confession Then he Dan described how it has the plethora of scripture references where they come to that conclusion

01:04:51

So For that reason that's where I would I would disagree a little bit with with that picture that you drew

01:04:58

That we just we just have a sign and it's been our tradition, you know

01:05:05

We don't have any other information Well, the Westminster confession gives their references and and they and they say this is where we come to our conclusions

01:05:14

So they show us how they drew that conclusion by those references So I commend them for that and and all the other confessions that we hope to do that I believe and I think

01:05:25

I think that tells us that the the authors of the Westminster They said this they we are not the

01:05:33

Apostles. They're the Apostles the word is our authority and and that's why we can get along and agree because we all ultimately point to Scripture as our authority because they reference it this this is why we believe this is both these scriptures

01:05:49

And so I think that's commendable and and a good reason why we can get along Yeah, I wanted to say why

01:05:57

I'm holding up this magnet Wonder what that is it's gonna it's gonna be my point, but my point is also gonna come back in and bite me at the end, but So Jonathan pastor

01:06:11

Jonathan and and choice point Not everything being worldwide you have you have a church that can trace its lineage back to one of the seven churches of Revelation and they were they were not conformist and were

01:06:28

Pushed to the heels of the Swiss Alps and then they made their way fleeing persecution all the way to I -40 exit 113

01:06:38

Valdez, North Carolina the the Waldensians and however, the part that's gonna bite me is

01:06:45

I wouldn't go join that church because now they're PC USA So somewhere along the way they decided to baptize their infants

01:06:53

But but you did have a group that you know, that was not a part of those

01:06:59

Confessions and councils they they were non -conformist and they were persecuted

01:07:04

It's and you know, like Troy had said, you know badness were part of that group At some point that now there are some state some stances that the

01:07:15

Contributors of the Westminster held to that did not work their way into the confession

01:07:21

Troy and I talked a little bit about this last year because I read a book by one of the

01:07:28

Westminster divines on spiritual warfare and there was a

01:07:34

Pretty lengthy discourse in there on what I can only describe as the federal headship of Eve.

01:07:41

It was weird hmm and this idea that Only the only believers are to be considered descendants of Eve that that is something that was forfeited when you were conceived in sin

01:07:56

It's weird and it that's definitely not in the Westminster confession of faith but it's one thing that one of the people that worked on the confession did hold to and I commend the

01:08:09

Guys that worked on this for not putting that there but also because not everything they personally subscribed to It wasn't just the copy and paste of their beliefs.

01:08:19

There was a lot of labor that went into this And I think that's something that we can definitely learn from that's something we can definitely try to embody

01:08:30

That not everything that we agree with is gonna work its way into the official doctrine of the truth and love

01:08:36

Network Yeah, I think that's a that's a good point you bring up because not only with the

01:08:43

Westminster but also with the way that the 1689 is written, you know, Nehemiah Cox was one of the one of the framers

01:08:52

But yet we don't have his covenant theology being a part of it. It's left broad and It's something that gives that gives some some leeway in it in as much as You know, here's what we believe that the scriptures teach.

01:09:11

Here are the main here's some major key points This is what we believe about faith baptism

01:09:18

This is you know, God to Trinity the Holy Scriptures chapter 1 is the Holy Scriptures all the way down to you know, here's a

01:09:28

Here's a church Church ecclesiology mostly of its to do on Tyrants essentially defense against tyrants

01:09:40

But yet all the way through but still left broad enough to where it's not meant to every last little detail pinpoint

01:09:48

I Just think there's wisdom and Okay, sorry,

01:09:58

I'm typing. Um Yeah, I know and one thing to touch on that is because To Tyler just to touch on it real quick.

01:10:06

I don't want to go down a rabbit trail Rabbit trail it because even

01:10:11

Protestants held to whereas Mary is the new Eve, right? Cuz she gave birth to Christ and right in Christ is right

01:10:19

He is those who are in Christ are born again, right? And so there there is therefore she's the new Eve, right?

01:10:24

she's a new mother of the living right and so Whereas I don't know if that's what

01:10:30

Some of the Westminster Ian Presbyterians were going for where she's a second Eve or the new

01:10:36

Eve not quite but the idea that this guy presented was that the status of Being mother of all living is almost imputed to believers so that Eve becomes the mother of all spiritually living

01:10:51

Right, it's funky. Like yeah, it didn't pass the smell test with me I took some some time to dig into this one, and it just didn't click.

01:11:01

Okay, I don't see it. I'm sorry I'll remember seeing that Ain't been in Romans.

01:11:07

I put it that way You do kind of see it in a little bit because in in the

01:11:29

Bite the fruit handed to her husband he eats and then you know when all that death is entering in the world

01:11:35

He calls her the mother of all living No, right after they hear that that there's gonna be a curse coming upon Mankind, but the the fruit or the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent and so the one who

01:11:50

She's going to then have the seed of the woman's going to be the mother of all living

01:11:56

I mean you have to You can't take it a one -for -one, you know, the

01:12:01

Eve that lived in the garden is now but there's there's It's a little bit more understandable, right then

01:12:10

Yeah, not understandable, I guess whether you agree or not you can at least They made a connection there.

01:12:16

I mean it'd be cool if it was if it was Yeah, like I read this like that sounds cool, but I don't see it

01:12:26

Yeah, right. Hey brothers. I think sometimes that people will see something like oh, there's a cool connection

01:12:32

And then they'll take it and develop a whole doctrine off of it It's like I mean you saw a connection

01:12:37

But maybe well what before you go and develop that into a whole thing that everybody ought to believe for all time

01:12:42

And that's why it's good It didn't make it into into a confession for people to believe as a part of being in the church

01:12:50

Hey brothers, I got to jump off here. Thank you for having me on Now there's like a tornado warnings in this area and so Vibrating and so yeah, pray for me

01:13:05

Claude Josh Anyone else in the greater Knoxville area explains what we got wind warnings coming up for tomorrow

01:13:14

Over here. We're getting snowstorms back -to -back. We got one a couple days ago. We got one today

01:13:20

We got coming up one Sunday or Saturday into Sunday And then we got one coming up Tuesday or next

01:13:26

Thursday into Friday. It's weird get in the basement, Troy All right Crawl space work.

01:13:32

See you guys Yeah to kind of wrap it up basically so there's obviously

01:13:44

Definitely different point of views different different convictions laid out here tonight Right, like obviously different point of views on you know throughout you know in church history

01:13:54

How to view certain things there? How do we approach our obviously we have seen that tonight and how we approach church history?

01:14:02

And but we all we all agree. Yes, it is. It's an authority to it and obviously some have a Stress press it's an authority to a certain extent right?

01:14:10

Obviously script We all agree scripture is the the authority that all authorities must submit to But what one other thing

01:14:19

I'm trying to think of another thing where I kind of want to touch on whereas And maybe this can maybe this will circle back to our our agreement,

01:14:28

I'm not sure whereas, um Now, how does this look like and I think we kind of touched on this a little bit bits and pieces throughout tonight

01:14:38

Practically right because if you do have like and I think you mentioned we're like someone that does not want to submit to to a

01:14:45

Pastor right to in there, whichever church you're part of an Anglican Church Baptist Presbyterian non -denom. Whereas you have someone that Um Thinks a hey, this is what

01:14:55

I see in the Bible How are you to tell me what to if it's if it's in the word in there?

01:15:02

They're really not submitting to The pastor. How does that work out practically? And so did in so with the authority that a pastor is given right an elder is given

01:15:13

Right. It's obviously submitting to the word Do you I think we would all agree?

01:15:19

Um With a case like that we ought to submit ourselves to the past especially if he's right, right

01:15:25

If in like but obviously like I said, sometimes you get a person where he think he thinks he's right So, how does that work out in certain cases?

01:15:33

Right, and I don't know if you guys want to Go into how do you get maybe church discipline in here? I don't know.

01:15:39

This might go down a rabbit trail. I don't know I said pastor Jonathan was bringing up earlier how important it was the resurgence of the biblical case for elders and churches was a good thing that's around and I think another one of those things that has come back up and has resurged back in our churches is biblical church membership and And learning about that implementing that and to me from what

01:16:09

I feel like I hear you saying Touches that issue the biblical biblical church membership.

01:16:18

So And it's really important in like today's era because of the

01:16:26

Internet because we're everything going on on the social media and and we just have an overload of information happening and we're

01:16:37

Introduced to Calvinism were introduced to this eschatology and so You'll grab a hold of this this new thing and You know, the phrases have been coined, you know

01:16:49

Age stages and so people just want to rattle this and this is how understand they want to rattle your age to get you to to see

01:16:59

Calvinism to see this eschatology and They're they're just so excited about their zealous about it to the point that They're overzealous about it.

01:17:09

So They'll begin to search for churches that are more like -minded so they'll they'll find your church and they'll come to your church and You that's why this biblical church membership thing is so important.

01:17:23

I believe you you kind of see those people coming and You you have conversations with them you you

01:17:32

Take your time with them Get to know them have meetings with them

01:17:42

Just just so that you know who is coming in your church because those kind of folks that that mentality can really

01:17:50

Do damage like a bull in a china shop do damage in a church where folks that are in cage they just come in and just you know, rattle everybody or or even give you the pastor a hard time because You're not

01:18:04

Calvinistic enough. You're not Calvinistic enough or you know, we see I don't Calvinism But you're you're not

01:18:10

Amir or you're not post mill. So, you know, they start to You know rattle cages about that.

01:18:17

Yeah And see I read this really good book when I was first coming into the doctrines of grace he's called letters to a young Calvinist and I think the guy's gonna apostate now, but Essentially what the book was was they were letters

01:18:35

To a younger version of himself that he was basically writing to Himself when he was first becoming what we would call it

01:18:42

Calvinist and a lot of it's about humility It is but at one point he he's addressing what we call the young wrestlers reform movement when all these young guys

01:18:50

Became Calvinist that they they got Reform and they had like the five soulless tattooed on their arm or whatever and and They stopped going to church because they weren't

01:19:00

Calvinistic Calvinistic enough and this guy basically made the statement if you're to reform for the church

01:19:06

Then you're not reformed enough because you think you're more reformed than Calvin. Mm -hmm because for Calvin what we call the doctrines of grace

01:19:16

Produced a deep love for the body And so if we don't have that We've got work to do so if our

01:19:25

Theology takes us away from the gathered body. I Think that is a point for consideration because the theology was given to the church

01:19:37

Mm -hmm Deuteronomy 2929 I think it is says the secret things belong to the

01:19:43

Lord our God But that which has been revealed belongs to us and to our children It's not just me the

01:19:49

Bible's for me. It's the Bible is for all of us These things were given to the church To the

01:19:56

Jews were given the oracles of God to to the people of God were given the words of God Yeah, and so when we talk about theology when we talk about doctrines, we talk about all these differences

01:20:06

Ultimately, these things are for the building up of the body And so when we get to a point where we're leaving the church because they're not sound enough

01:20:16

We run the risk of pulling out that foundation and that leads to all kinds of other problems I think that's probably part of some of the schisms we've had

01:20:25

And there's a context in this case by case basis. Like for instance, like we're like especially if it's a non if it's a secondary issue where obviously you can disagree because obviously a

01:20:37

Member can have disagreements for the pastor. It depends. What what type of disagreements right? Are there secondary like like for like I mentioned

01:20:44

Anglicanism? I can be a Calvinist and Anglican church that maybe the director of the head the head of priest is not a

01:20:53

Calvinist, right? I or invite you can meet you can even I seen Anglican churches where the two priests are in charge of a church

01:21:00

Right that you can have co -priests Once a Calvinist ones in Armenian, right you can you have that so obviously you have those just the secondary issue of disagreements what more

01:21:12

I was probably trying to get at with the question is obviously more of a For primary like I meant like I mentioned before whereas okay

01:21:19

What if someone does come up to someone or our pastor to their pastor? Hey, I'm not seeing this whole

01:21:25

Trinity thing or I'm not seeing this whole, you know Jesus is

01:21:30

God and or Even throughout churches you had people denying you the Holy Spirit God Yeah, you have people affirming the

01:21:37

Father and the Son was God, but not the Holy Spirit I think it was a I forgot the name of it and that is my son crying. My wife is changing him.

01:21:43

So forgive me Let me speak to it a little bit from yeah, go ahead pastor if that's okay.

01:21:50

Yep. First of all speaking to pastors This is a common thing if you've pastored any length of time

01:21:59

This is a common thing that people are going to ask questions of core doctrinal things and especially and I actually personally love it when they do because that means they're searching and So so pastors should never be so arrogant as to shut down question

01:22:16

That they should be approachable. They should be You said the priest a father, you know a father figure

01:22:24

Someone that people can confide in and it has to be relational It's a being a good shepherd a shepherd should smell like sheep

01:22:32

Unfortunately, we have a lot of pastors though that have approached my way or the highway kind of mentality in certain denominations

01:22:40

And so therefore they're not available for genuine loving Long suffering

01:22:46

Conversations because discipleship is a journey as well. It's a long it's a long process So I would speak to pastors first to say hey, hey guys, we we have a responsibility to walk with the sheep

01:22:58

We have a responsibility to be humble There's been lots of things that I've said in 27 years of preaching then lots of things that I've said that's been misunderstood

01:23:07

And I'm thankful that there was enough relationship there that I didn't speak it Well, and so therefore it left a lot of room for misinterpretation and they come and say hey,

01:23:17

I heard you say this Is this what you meant? And I'm and and I'm like, no I did not mean that at all and I go right to the pulpit the next

01:23:26

Sunday and say hey This was brought to my attention guys Let me clear this up and speak to the whole congregation because if one is willing to ask a question

01:23:32

There might be more, you know, so as pastors we have to carry humility But with that being said there is non negotiable convictions that we have

01:23:41

We are going to walk with people through why we believe what we believe now with that being said there is an expectation in the reverse and scripture very specifically tells

01:23:52

Church people how to speak to elders Like you speak to them kindly and gently as a father or or like first Timothy first Timothy three, you know

01:24:01

We get our we get our elder qualifications But then first Timothy five it goes on and explains that that the church that the elders who rule

01:24:10

Will be considered worthy of double honor Especially those who labor in preaching and teaching like a double honor that there's this

01:24:19

So this person of honor so if if the heart of the person that's coming to the pastor

01:24:25

Really honors that man Even in disagreement, then there's not there's not a strife full like attacking conversation

01:24:34

It is legitimate. Hey, I've got a question I'm struggling with this and and I honor you in your position and And I thank you for the time to come talk to me.

01:24:43

Can we talk about this? I'm struggling with why you believe this and then there can be a place of impasse

01:24:49

There are places and and that that you know what we we don't agree on this and so therefore

01:24:56

If we disagree on this Then each of them have to decide can we continue to exist in this local church?

01:25:03

We're not assuming that they're not a part of the of the whole church, but there was a family that was

01:25:09

That I'm still good friends with That we set beside each other at a ballgame the other night that they come and attended our church for a long time

01:25:17

But they really really had a hard time With reformed theology in soteriology and the light of salvation

01:25:25

They really have struggled with that because of their raising in background and they simply could not get there

01:25:31

And so so it came a point that they met with me in an honorable way they were honest

01:25:38

I explained our position they explained their position their position was still within orthodoxy

01:25:44

But just did not line up with our local church And so then I actually helped them and shepherded them to find To find another pastor that I know is a man of God is a good pastor and and and find a home church

01:25:55

That was more aligned, but just not necessarily right where we were at You know, and so there's an honorable way

01:26:02

Walk that out within the body of Christ And I think it's even what we try to represent here in our conversations and things of that nature

01:26:08

That we do it we do it in a very honoring way There's pastors that I'm very good friends with that.

01:26:14

We have strong disagreements I mean like like even disagree on some core values

01:26:23

But at the end of the day in God's sovereignty, I don't believe he's a false teacher if that makes sense

01:26:30

There is a difference even though he and I would disagree on something like like the definitions of eternal security or things like that Which are big big pretty high shelf issues, you know

01:26:41

But at the same time I think he's within orthodoxy, you know But I still honor him in God's sovereignty in the kingdom of God that he's still

01:26:51

God's man for that place He's still got that calling on his life. And so even in disagreement among pastors

01:26:57

We should still treat each other with honor in the body of Christ And so so I think

01:27:02

I hope that helps a lot with your question because I but but every pastor Should be humble enough to be questioned

01:27:12

Every pastor should be questioned by the elders and be questioned by the congregation

01:27:19

Even to be called into question But in a biblical manner and in a biblical manner

01:27:25

Be able to give a biblical defense of where he's at. So that's a doctrinal thing on the second side of that though every pastor

01:27:34

Should be humble enough to be called into question when it comes to sin Or when it comes to any of those kind of things that that would be considered disqualifying

01:27:44

Or bring this to a place that we're no longer above reproach with consistent sin The elders other elders or other leaders and if there's not elders or other leaders then then they're accountable to the congregation itself have a right as as a

01:27:58

Royal priesthood that we're all of the priesthood as a royal stood We have a right to to ask questions or hold accountable for sinful things

01:28:10

But then there's a biblical way to do it in the Bible tells you how to do that honorably

01:28:16

Speaking kindly speaking to them as a younger speaking to the older as first Peter says that you younger speak kindly

01:28:24

To them gently to them, but it doesn't mean not asking hard questions So I think it's the heart and the spirit behind it

01:28:33

And I've been on the opposite side where there was not a heart or spirit of honor or love but it was it was a going after your job or a

01:28:43

Condemnation or or the and I've been on the ugly side of that and It is it is terrible.

01:28:49

It is and it just perpetuates more sin throughout the church It leads to gossip and slander and the backbiting and and the foolishness that goes on in the hearts and lives of people

01:29:00

And so yeah, so if you handle it the first way that I'm saying the Lord is honored first of all

01:29:06

The church is protected and in the pastor and the congregation as as believers in Christ are honored and And I think then unity is maintained, you know, it's striving for unity.

01:29:19

So hope there's question a little bit Yeah, yeah and one thing to whereas like like like for instance like an example if a member like Like on a

01:29:29

Sunday didn't like what he heard from a from an elder preaching, right? And he he feels the need to want to correct that elder right there and then well, you know

01:29:38

I thought that would be unwise and what one biblical because if he thinks especially if he thinks it's something that's grave error

01:29:44

Right, we're like, you know you should have been done is maybe go to another elder of that the fellow elder of that person because I like for instance if I'm a member

01:29:54

I'm gonna go to another elder. Hey elder so -and -so, I think Elder Bob went on this

01:30:00

Sunday preaching. I think he said something Weary and grave error and he let that elder

01:30:06

Take care of it and then church the church structure if it needs to go to a higher authority right for Presbyterianism is a good need to go to the presbytery for me

01:30:18

It doesn't it's a bishop have to get involved for me as an Anglican, you know Or just a or is that fellow elder can go to that other person?

01:30:24

Hey, let's sit down Me as a member is not just gonna go straight to that person as an as a member

01:30:30

Oh, you said this on Sunday and you're wrong and you need to get He needs to be prayed for and all that stuff, right?

01:30:37

Just me as a member wanting to rebuke an elder a way that there's certain Things that need to be done and keep in mind that there are it is circumstantial in that, right?

01:30:48

Because there is a place where when you are going to rebuke an elder you rebuke them publicly front of all so if it is grave error

01:30:57

Known grave error grave sinful error. Like for example, if one of my elders was preaching and And they get up and immediately begin preaching that our stance on that we will not participate in homosexual marriage that that's something that needs to be changed here and So on and so forth if they're in grave error something

01:31:16

That's just goes strictly against scripture and where the church is standing We would address it right then in the sermon like we would not leave a shin at that point

01:31:26

So there so it can be circumstantial versus something that might be a doctrinal

01:31:33

Conviction of that person but may not be shared throughout the church like if Robert came and preached the message I'm post meal and he preached the message of vertical vertical is pretty diverse and our eschatology point of views

01:31:45

We kind of represent all but if he came and preached I'm post meal I'm not going to stand up and stop him from preaching that message

01:31:53

Because that is a position of eschatology now, I'm gonna get Probably 15 emails and 10

01:32:01

You know, is this where we're at as a church and then I'm gonna say no, but there are good parts about this position because our church doesn't have a declared eschatological

01:32:13

Point of view as a body Our stance is he's coming again

01:32:19

So be ready, you know be ready at all times and then we're gonna have a lot of fun in the secondary parts of that Discussing pre meal all meal post meal, you know what

01:32:29

I mean? So so again, I would say Brother that that it that there are circumstantial things that would require an immediate public review for public response and and but then other times

01:32:45

No, and I think sometimes with pastors we're we are not above a Matthew 18 approach, you know

01:32:52

I mean, and so that's why I do think that there I would recommend for example Elias If you had an issue with with one of your priests or one of your rectors

01:33:02

If you can't go talk to him personally Then then that that's that's a problem. Oh, yeah, even in having that high level of respect if there is something there

01:33:12

But I wouldn't immediately go to the other elders first Because then that does potentially stir up contention and strife.

01:33:19

It's not necessarily on something Misunderstanding right now if a brother is an error or isn't sin then

01:33:25

Matthew 18 teaches us how to walk that out and that idea Where you would go to yourself if there's not a resolve then involve the elders, right?

01:33:34

Yeah, and bring it to the church I was just feeling in terms of like if a member wanted to get to the point of now

01:33:40

Let's do something. We're okay. You're a member the elders have to do that I'm saying like I was talking about that like remember want to do something where like no, you're not in that authority

01:33:48

A process has to go through and then the elders have to make that decision. Yeah But yeah, no, I definitely love where your point of view is that definitely it's case by case depends what the incident is

01:33:58

What is there because if Rob said Oh Postmill is the only biblical way and Then you get like you said you get 15 emails saying wait,

01:34:08

I'm a pre mills He's saying I'm not a believer if I'm not a postman Is that what he said that in a sermon then

01:34:13

I would probably let him finish sermon, but I would follow up and make there You go. Yeah, I respect you and I love you, but folks that's not right.

01:34:21

You don't have to be postmilled to be safe Like I'm here to invitation to your church

01:34:30

Yeah, it's called the laborers conference All you crazies

01:34:37

Yep, but uh, but anyways, that's that's uh, I'm just saying it is case by case.

01:34:43

Yeah. Yeah, I think Sorry, I don't mean to labor on it, but like Peter and John and their disagreement over circumcision, you know

01:34:50

Paul said I mean not sorry Paul Peter and their difference on on circumcision

01:34:56

Paul said I'm going to speak to him to his face You know and and then they end up having that conversation and then they end up having a whole council about it

01:35:07

You know that all the elders are there together to speak of Circumcision and the speak of eating meat or not meat that's offered to idols and all these kind of things

01:35:15

You know what? I mean, and they reason together face to face and a transparent

01:35:22

Way of integrity. It's not gossipy. It's not Backbiting it's like they come together.

01:35:28

They reason together in love and they have a resolution And then then away they go carries back the the instructions, you know back to the

01:35:37

Gentiles So this is how you should carry yourself in these manners. And so In a reasonable way, so I just think we have plenty of biblical examples of how to confront right even pastors and leaders

01:35:49

You know, yeah And I know you weren't accusing me of that I think what you said,

01:35:55

I think what you said was wisdom I Attempt to do my best to have that type of approach when when

01:36:02

I'm preaching I just think about last sermon and I can't think about my own

01:36:10

History and tradition in the church where the only thing that I've ever heard acts when a used for is an

01:36:18

Evangelistic evangelistic strategy for the 21st century. That's all I've ever heard it used for this. This is

01:36:24

God's strategy for us to use to reach the world, but I was

01:36:29

I was preaching eight acts after eight with Philip and You know, he was one of he was the second one chosen

01:36:39

But also he was a part of Acts 1 8. He was a part of that Yes, so acts 1 8

01:36:45

God says God says to you Damn, he was speaking to you will be my witnesses in these places

01:36:53

And so it's not just this and so I brought in it's this too.

01:36:59

Yeah Yeah, let me let me say something to that real quick, and I'm sorry to keep us on here longer

01:37:04

Yeah, we're if anyone doesn't want to add anything you Professor John you can say the last word and then

01:37:10

Rob can kick us out All right Yeah, so I fell in love with acts 1 8 in a fresh way this we're going back through the book of Acts And I just preached it again here a few weeks ago

01:37:23

And I did not realize this was fresh for me and some of you guys are really smarter than I am and I think

01:37:29

I did Know this but it just was very very fresh How Luke when he writes acts 1 8 that is the entire outline of the book of Acts?

01:37:39

Because you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem guess where acts 2 picks up Jerusalem you're going to be my witnesses in Judea and Samaria.

01:37:50

Well, guess what you have you have Philip and And Peter at the house of Cornelius, you know, that's

01:37:56

Judea Samaria and you've got the uttermost parts Guess who's the uttermost parts guy? You got

01:38:02

Paul and the whole second part of the book of Acts that now begins to get the uttermost parts And so that is

01:38:07

Luke's that is the power you shall receive power and then you will be and then you see the you will be

01:38:16

The rest of the book of Acts is the will be like here it is. Here's how it began So we've often used it in modern -day times as a metaphorical preaching your

01:38:26

Jerusalem preaching your Samaria preach You know go to the uttermost parts and I don't think it's totally wrong

01:38:32

But it was so refreshing to me just to see how simple that outline is for the whole book of Acts I think you can literally clump acts into that and so yes, you're right

01:38:43

Philip he is Acts 1 8 and Paul is acts 1 8 and like all these big and even the church

01:38:50

When they're scattered with their they are acts 1 8 and we're still

01:38:56

Acts 1 8 That we have received in power and we are his witnesses even now tonight, you know and the unit man the

01:39:05

Gospel to Ethiopia is that he's an uttermost parts acts 1 800 percent.

01:39:12

So so it is beautiful the the beauty and the sovereignty of God and the power of the

01:39:19

Holy Spirit and so brothers that's That's where I think we can end on a very unifying note That We we are still echoes of that we are still modern -day part of the priesthood of believers that People would not be reached outside of the veins that God has sovereignly and strategically placed us in and as he is building his church

01:39:43

That's why I'm not anti -denomination Even though I see more middle ground being gained among denominations at least conservative do not in parts of the denomination

01:39:52

There's more traction gained and unifying there I think it's still very necessary because it's a part of God's plan of the gospel going forth here and around the world

01:40:02

It's necessary because it's reaching niches of people that otherwise would you know would not be reached like an

01:40:10

Anglican a Gospel centered Anglican is going to reach Catholics Better than old boy raised in the

01:40:17

Southern Baptist who thought you know All Catholics are weirdos and just stranger. You know what I mean? It's gonna it fits and that's part of God's Avenue of reaching his people and saving his people from the sin so as much as we can disagree on there's there's still tons and tons that we celebrate and We we trust the sovereignty of God at the end of the day.

01:40:40

This is his church We're his people and we are the sheep of his pasture and we are to enter into his gates for Thanksgiving and with praise

01:40:48

And we're to bless his name. And so so I'm thankful that we we have that unity in that tonight together.

01:40:54

Amen Thanks for letting me put a little bit guys Amen, so Rob you want to kick us off?

01:41:03

Yeah a place that we would certainly be in grave error is if our ministry here did not mirror our

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Authority scripture in that the Bible is Christocentric and We are

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Christian We point to Christ because he is our Savior and our

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Lord and he is our team and so he is Everything and we praise him and we thank him and we are not here and we have no hope without our

01:41:45

Savior Jesus Christ and We will be amiss and in grave error if we did not extend an

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Invitation to anybody who's watching or listening to come to Christ believing in him

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And what he did on the cross and turning from your sins repenting of them

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Resting in Jesus alone for your salvation Of course not of works It's only through Christ that we're safe So we would we would encourage you.

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Please consider and come to him Let's let's pray together

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Father we thank you for our time together our brother

01:42:38

That's that's sick I'll pray for Paul that you would touch him and And Jeremiah his wife who is under the weather and it's sick

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We pray for her and lift her up again to you as a group and we pray for our brothers in in Tennessee Troy and his family

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Paul and his family Josh and his family and our brothers and sisters at Reformation Baptist in Tennessee We lift them up to you as they are under What this tornado warning that we know that you are not unaware, but you are sovereign and We we trust in your sovereignty

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We we ask for your protection over them and the folks that are

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I think the storm has also been in Kentucky as well We pray for them and ask you watch over them

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Lord, we lift your name on high for you are the only one worthy of glory

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And we pray this in Jesus name Well, thank you

01:43:45

Elias for hosting I hope I did good Love you, brother.

01:43:51

Love all you brothers. I mean, I love you guys. Thank you for watching and listening Hope it was an encouragement to you.

01:43:59

Remember to go check out the labors conference calm We would love to see you in Newton, North Carolina vertical life pastor

01:44:06

Jonathan's church vertical life church in Newton Go there to register see the schedule see the speakers

01:44:13

It's gonna be a great time. We'd love to see you there and we hope to see you next time on the labors Thank you for joining the laborers podcast

01:44:21

Remember Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.