What Happened at the SBC?

I want to bring you back in, I want to ask you one burning question. You're a biologist, I have two biologists here.

I have a burning question that has been asked recently, I'm wondering if you can help out with. I know that this can't be answered by Supreme Court justices.

What is a woman? Oh, you do not want me to go down this road because sex determination and development,

I mean, Dr. Jensen is probably more familiar with developmental biology than I am. But that's a really complicated question, especially when you consider the complexities of human biology.

Look, I actually do, I talk in class about sex determination, chromosomal determinants, hormonal determinants, genetic determinants.

What determines sex? See, that's, there's no short, there is no answer to that question that I could answer in the time that we have tonight.

Really? Okay. It is a really complicated question, it is a really complicated question.

So it's not a question of chromosome X versus Y? 100 % no.

It's not? 100 % no. You can ask me the question 12 different ways if you want, but you're going to get the same answer each time.

I don't think it's all that complex. I would answer it very simply. A woman is what God, who created the women, defines it as.

God created her, he gets to give the definition. So it's, a woman is what God calls a woman. One, two, three.

Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro and Pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live, Apologetics Live, here to answer your challenging questions or comments about God and the

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Unlike Dr. Cardinal from Rutgers University there that couldn't answer very quickly, what is a woman?

Yes, this is a very difficult question. Thousands of years of history, we knew the answer.

But now, in the last two years, this is a very difficult question to be answered and we don't have time to give a simple answer like X versus Y chromosome.

I know, it's a tough one. Let me bring in from the backstage, Dr. Anthony Silvestro with the very beautiful scenery behind him.

Yes, somehow I got the better view at your house tonight. So I'm actually live from Andrew's house, but I got the better seat.

I'm outside. I do fear for my basil. My fresh basil is going to be gone. All throughout the show, while I'm drinking from your favorite cup too, leftist tears.

You'll be drinking down the leftist tears. Before we bring the others in,

I said I want to trigger you. I've already triggered off that video. I'm sorry.

You know what? We always joke about how people say that I'm a dentist, I'm not a real doctor.

And I'm like, I know what a woman is. I know what a man is. I could easily describe this for you, scientifically, biologically, however you need me to do it,

I could do that for you. So yeah, I'm already triggered. Well, I forget who made it, but someone made a great meme from that show when

I asked the guy the question and your head's in your hand, like it's just been discussed.

Dr. Jensen and I are like smiling and the guy's trying to explain, no, this is really complex. And it was just like, oh, yes.

We hoped that Dr. Cardinal would come in and defend his explanation that it takes him several days to explain,

I guess, what a woman is. He does it in class over many classes, I guess.

I don't know. I think I did it in, what, maybe 10 seconds there? Yeah. Whatever God says a woman is.

Yeah. And even biologically, you can explain it in about 30 seconds. You go for the biology first, the genetics, and then you can talk about the biochemistry and how those genetics influences all the genes in the body as well as the hormone responses, which gives rise to literally personality and every other trait you have.

So, yeah, you can do that really quickly. Okay. So, I should address this. I see this in the comments, so I should address this before we trigger you.

KT is saying, I'm glad Andrew is still alive. If you listen to the rap report that'll come out this next week,

I will go into more detail of all that has been going on and why the recent posts that some have seen from me.

But basically, Friday was a horrible day for me. It was really a pinnacle, a changing point for me.

But I did land in the hospital, ER, late at night. Basically had a medical reaction to some blood pressure medicine that I was taking.

It's one of those rare times, Anthony, you know that I'm not into taking medicines like even

Benadryl. I tend not to take things. I try to do things naturally. And my lips started blowing up and I decided to go to the store, get

Benadryl by God's providence. And as everything that happened, it was God's providence. We didn't have

Benadryl in the house. I went out to the, it's 1130 at night, found a 24 hour

CVS and the pharmacist was actually still there. I decided, which I typically wouldn't have done, was to bother the pharmacist and asked him, hey, what's the fastest acting

Benadryl? And I said it, my lips started throwing up like this. He took one look at my lip and said, you should go to the

ER. And I said, yeah, okay, I'll just take the Benadryl, pop it and go. And so I popped it in and went,

I passed the hospital on my way home. And I was talking to my wife on the phone. I said, you know what?

I think I'm just going to turn around because the doctor had said, if you start having any kind of breathing problems, get to the emergency room immediately.

And I don't know if he put it in my head, but I started like, am I actually wheezing? I don't know. I just decided, you know what?

I'm going to go in. The ER doctor said, basically, that may have saved my life or at least saved my voice.

The reaction they have, there's nothing they can really do for it other than to see if it closes, my throat closes up and if it starts closing up, they put a trach in and that's it.

And then, you know, I no longer speak. So they literally had me in the hospital for six hours just watching to see if I was going to need to have a trach or not.

So they're just watching to see whether my throat swelled up or not. So Pastor Justin says, it was my fault.

I stressed Andrew out. That would be true because he's not here right now. He's not in the show and he should be just so we'll say it's his fault.

Melissa Lex says, praise God for his providence. So I had been under a lot of stress. I think you guys, the audience, you know that Anthony and Justin have been filling in and taking on a lot of the shows for a while and I do appreciate that.

But I think now, I realized I can't work as many hours as I was.

And so I basically made the decision for health reasons, other reasons,

I resigned from my church and so I'm no longer pastoring. So just focused here on the ministry, doing all that plus trying to do some side work to pay bills was just too much.

So I'm feeling a lot better. Blood pressure is under control without medicine. So I think it was up a little high today, but I think that's because of the guy on the other side of the camera showed up at my house and I feel stressed.

Okay, let's make him feel stressed. Anthony, let's play a video for you here. Okay, here you go.

You're looking at you just love that guy. That's your favorite doctor, Dr. Fauci. All right.

So let's. That's not a real doctor. What about what about Dr. Cardale? He couldn't even define a woman.

I mean, you know, I'm sorry, but if you're if you are a biologist, because we heard from a judge that she can't answer what is woman because she's not a biologist.

But if you're a PhD in biology, teaching at a university, teaching biology at a university, evolutionary biology, no less.

You know, your genetics, then you can't. Find a man versus a woman.

I'm just saying, if you you shouldn't be teaching biology, if you can't answer a simple question like that, just saying.

But you, Anthony, you and I have been very vocal about certain things going on in the world with Dr.

Fauci and vaccines. In fact, in fact, Striving for Eternity got got booted from YouTube for a little while because we dared to say things about the vaccine.

I wonder if this is going to get us banned, because this is the famed Dr. Fauci saying, well, exactly what we've been saying for two years.

Let's listen. And I'll let you respond to the things that's clear from the data that even though vaccines, because of the high degree of transmissibility of this virus, don't protect overly well, as it were, against infection, they protect quite well against severe disease leading to hospitalization and death.

And I believe that's the reason, Neil, why at my age, being vaccinated and boosted, even though it didn't protect me against infection,

I feel confident that it made a major role in protecting me from progressing to severe disease.

And that's very likely why I had a relatively mild course. So my message to people who seem confused because people who are vaccinated get infected.

The answer is, if you weren't vaccinated, the likelihood you would have more severe course than you did have when you were vaccinated.

All right, Dr. Sebastian, I hate to be the one to say

I told you so, but, you know, we've been saying this for a long time, that vaccines are not going to prevent.

And in fact, we have statistics anywhere from between 75 % to 90 % of all new

COVID cases are people who've been vaccinated. Exactly what we've expected because of the type of technology.

The thing that makes me most triggered for this, though, is this issue. And they've been lying about flu shots for years, is they claim that, well, you might still get the flu, but it'll diminish your symptoms.

How in the world can you design a study to figure that out? You can't. It's literally made up.

It's been talked about for years. And now they transfer that same narrative to the COVID vaccine.

There is no way to actually know this. And the thing is, is if you're more likely to get COVID being on the vaccine than not having the vaccine, why would you think that it's going to somehow diminish symptoms?

This just doesn't make any sense. And they want to call themselves scientists and they want to say to follow the science.

But of course, these same people also can't tell you what a woman is. Well, I think

Chris has the answer here. Dr. Fauci sounds like a great representative of the so -called

Department of Truth from the 1984 book. I think he's right there.

I mean, the reality is, is he's now admitting publicly because of the fact that he got

COVID. Now he's admitting it's not overly helpful for preventing you from getting

COVID. But that was the whole sales pitch that they had said. And we were proponents saying, that's not true.

Looking at the data, he's finally looking at the data. Glad he's finally getting around to it.

But he's now looking at the data. And after saying that we all must get vaccinated, he was a big proponent of mandating vaccines.

And now we find out it's not overwhelmingly helpful to preventing you from getting

COVID. And oh, but it might prevent you from getting severe cases. How do you know? Because you can't do a study with the same person having testing before and after the

COVID vaccine. You can't do that study. Everyone's different. But I got COVID. You got

COVID. Not big deal. We're done with it quickly. For me, at least, it was a flu that lasted a little bit longer, a little bit more symptoms, and I was over it.

No big deal. Do people die from the flu? Yeah. Now, not during 2020. That's the miracle of 2020.

Nobody got the flu in 2020. But a lot of people got COVID. Wonder if that was a correlation there.

Not to mention all the nonsense with talking about how vaccines, they were trying to tell us that vaccines were superior to natural immunity after you've had, after you yourself have gotten

COVID. Yeah, I see Justin's comment there. You know exactly what I was laughing at. Justin Pierce says,

Anthony is mad that Dr. Fauci has more hair. Trust me, I would love to blame my loss of hair on one of the vaccines, but I did not take them.

No, and the CAPE says they shouldn't call it a vaccine. And it's interesting because what

CDC had to do was actually change the definition. They've admitted this now in emails that were out, that they had to redefine what a vaccine is and what it means to be vaccinated because it didn't match the

COVID -19 vaccine, which says it is not a vaccine, or as Jason says, it's complete total propaganda.

Yeah. Yeah. One of my friends who's in the area back home, a medical doctor, he's been an emergency room doctor for years, understands vaccines well.

He said what's unique about this vaccine is that, like most, is it targets one specific spot of the

COVID. In this case, it targets the spike protein, which by no coincidence is the exact part of the

COVID that will, or coronavirus, that will actually mutate the quickest, rendering vaccines useless very quickly, which is why they have to keep coming out with boosters.

Where the vaccine hits one spot and targets one area, your natural immunities, it appears in the research, target 28 different receptor sites on the coronavirus, 28.

And those are actually longer lasting versus what the spike protein one is. So I mean, it's astounding the research that's behind the scenes is being suppressed.

But I know we're not having a show on just vaccines tonight, so should we transition to our next -

Well, and it does go to the fact of, like you said earlier, if we can't define what a woman is. Now, I got to bring in matter of theology here, because I see

Chris Hough going like this, waving his hands, like, come on, come on, bring it on. So this is the second in the news segment.

This is, really, this was sparked by Drew this morning. And Drew, I don't know if you've been following my

Facebook and Twitter, but yeah, thanks a lot. I mean, you got me blocked by a lot of people.

Hey, I just give the information. And what you do with it, that's on you. Can we back up for one second?

You wanted something to say on these, because I saw you like, please put me on mute. Look, I'll just say this, and this is maybe a matter of theology, maybe not.

The world, well, it is, because the world's watching, right? The world is watching the way that our country has handled this pandemic of COVID -19.

They've watched. And the fact that this talking head, this fool, is still allowed to get on cable news networks and talk about that,

I think just continues to show how weak we are as a country and how much under God's judgment we are.

Amen to that. And it goes to show how much money talks in all this, because you've got the $350 million that we know about in payouts to Fauci and Francis Collins, who is the head of BioLogos, who calls himself a

Christian, is really a Catholic who promotes evolution and destroys the foundations of the Bible, paying for Christian school teachers every year to come out and get free training, free flights, free hotel, free food to teach you evolution and bring back to their

Christian classroom. I don't know why my tongue is tied tonight.

I'm fired up right now. It's just blustered. Yeah. It just might make you feel better,

Anthony. Yeah, please. So the whole thing about our dentist, doctors, and all of that.

So you and I have had several conversations, right? About medical stuff, about just across the board.

Whenever I talk to some friends or even family, I always say,

I have a friend who's a doctor. And then I say what you say. I don't say,

I have a friend who's a dentist. I say, I've got a friend who's a doctor. And we've talked about these things.

I'm not sure if this is a compliment or not, but I'll take it as one. All right. Well, Drew, let's get to the trouble you got me in today.

You sent a text to a couple of us this morning, which Chris was able to verify.

And so I said, why don't you come on so we could talk about this in the news section of the podcast.

Now, folks, if you don't know the voices you're hearing, Chris Hough and Drew are from Matter of Theology podcast.

So I encourage you guys. They're part of the Christian podcast community. So go out there, check them out.

If you're not listening to them, what is wrong with you? Seriously.

And by the way, good to see you guys tonight, Chris and Drew. Good to see you. I didn't get a chance to greet you earlier. So no worries.

At least one of them is representing their podcast, though. I won't say which one has his shirt Matter of Theology on and the same.

But Drew, go ahead. Someone was supposed to get a shirt, but he hasn't gotten his. I have not gotten one yet. But anyway,

I had just found out about this this morning that Benny Johnson, the wife of Bill Johnson, she'd been battling cancer and the doctors moved her off of chemo and were moving her into hospice.

And so I just sent a text to a couple of us in a group that we had. And I said, hey, you know, obviously we want to pray for for the

Lord to intervene in healing her body because, you know, he can we still believe the Lord can heal.

But more specifically and on a greater measure of healing, we want to focus our prayers on the greater healing of of the soul.

And that is we wanted to pray for her salvation because being a part of Bethel. And obviously, you know, co -senior pastor with her with her husband,

Bill, they teach a lot of false doctrine and false gospel. And so I sent that out and then it was verified by Chris shortly after that she had actually passed away.

So Benny Johnson of Bethel Reading has actually passed away of cancer.

And it brought about a lot of things that were, I guess, infuriating, you could say it is a word

Chris use that word. Because there's Andrew, you've got a story about, you know, someone who was.

I'll explain. Yeah, I'm going to get into that. Yep. And then there was we think back a couple of years ago, Chris and I did a show on a little baby named

Olivia who had passed away. And then they brought the baby who had passed away to the church.

I don't know how long, a couple of days. They tried to resurrect her from the dead. Yeah. I mean, just horrific things.

So maybe Olive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wake up, Olive. That was the whole thing that they did. Yeah. Yeah. So this is what

I ended up posting and it got me in a lot of heat. But I don't know.

Yeah, I guess. So I said, you know, Benny Johnson, Bill, Bill's wife died.

Though that is very sad. It should be noted that Bill had a young 29 year old lady newly wed with a young child who worked for him in a total.

We had a totally treatable type of cancer. And she was told by Bill Johnson herself that he that she lacked the faith by going to doctors.

And so what did she do? She stopped the treatments. Within a few months, she went home. She came she came to Pennsylvania, which is how

I got to know of her, where she came so her parents could take care of her so that she could die, leaving a husband behind, leaving a child behind.

Immediately, it only took two posts. The second comment that's all took the second comment. Second post was, it's too soon for something like this.

You have no love of which I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of love for the 29 year old victim of the false teaching of Bill Johnson.

I have a lot of love and care for her. She you know what she had to go through. But but then for her husband, who she leaves behind to for the child that Negro was up without a mother,

I have a lot of love for them. I don't have a lot of love for a predator like Bill Johnson, who feeds off of Christians that want to get better.

And for this girl, she lacks faith by going to doctors and dealing with a treatable cancer. But for his wife,

Bill Johnson's wife, she was getting the best treatment that money could buy, got in hospice so she could pass nicely.

I don't rejoice that she passed. Right. It's not a good thing.

I feel bad for the family, but it exposes. And I had people saying it was interesting because one person who criticized me, he then removed the comment, which then he went to his own wall to attack me.

And when I commented that, you know, it's interesting because everybody was saying like he was saying that I was lacking love and people were like, are you kidding?

He's showing love. He even said he was sorry. It's like, when is the right time to call out a false teacher?

Then it seems like it's never the right time for the progressives, you know, and the liberals.

It's never a right time for them. Let me quote Bill Johnson himself. OK, I said

I refuse to create a theology that allows for sickness. That's Bill Johnson's own.

Those are his words, ladies and gentlemen. And I did say infuriating in our text thread, and I think that that's why we have compassion for and we've all experienced some sort of loss in our lives.

And so we understand that. We pray that the Lord would comfort them. We pray the Lord would give them peace.

But most importantly, what I have been praying for is that the Lord would use this to open his eyes, to shake off, to smash the veil from his eyes and that he would receive true repentance and saving faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ. Because right now he does not possess faith in the biblical

Christ. And some may say, well, Chris, how can you say that? That's very judgmental. I can say that based upon what we see in Scripture, Matthew chapter seven, judging fruit.

When we see this fruit of guys like Bill Johnson denying the very deity of Christ, guys like Bill Johnson, who who preach a false gospel and a false

Christ and give people a false assurance of salvation, then they in turn end up giving money to Bethel that goes to him that paid for Benny's care, all while he's telling people, you just need to have more faith.

You just need to have more faith. You just need to have more faith when that's not it. The most loving thing we can do is to go,

OK, yes, we're praying for them. Yes, that's horrible. We don't wish that on anybody. Our desire is what we see of Scripture and the fact that we desire all to be saved.

I think of Paul Washer saying, my desire is that everybody would come to know Christ.

However, we know that's not going to be the case. And we've seen through the fruit of Bethel, we've seen through the fruit of Bill Johnson and Benny Johnson, that they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

So it's not unloving to point out the erroneous theology. It's not unloving to point out the erroneous ideology.

That have eternal consequences, unless the Lord granted Benny repentance and saving faith in the true

Christ before she died. She spent her life saying, Lord, Lord, did

I not do this? Did I not do that? And here's what she heard. She heard away from me.

I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness. And so our desire is to go,

OK, hello, these guys have been preaching little faith. You need to have more faith.

I don't believe in a theology, in a God that allows for sickness. Well, if you can't see now through the eyeglasses, through the arm braces, through the just blasphemy and chicanery, now you see that the matriarch of Bethel has passed away from sickness.

Yeah. So it's not unloving to go avoid this, pray for them, but avoid this.

Well, and the thing that I found so interesting, several people on my wall and then this other guy who ended up blocking me when he put a post out on his wall, people were like, well,

I doubt this story is true. Well, this is someone that I personally was having having to counsel with.

Right, this is someone that personally is out here, moved out here, talked to.

Yes, the story is real. But the reason I find it so interesting is they're saying the story does it's it's not consistent because everybody at Bethel knew that she was sick with cancer and she was getting treatments.

I'm like, that's the point. You see, for some 29 year old girl with a treatable cancer, it's you lack faith.

But for Bill Johnson, there's a different set of rules for him. His wife can go get doctoral care, medical care.

But for you, I know, you know. And so Chris here says this, given the kenosis heresy that Bethel holds, it would be fair to say that it is reasonably possible that Benny Johnson could be in hell as we speak.

So let me explain what that means. The kenosis theory is the idea that on the cross,

Jesus stopped being God, that only the human side of Jesus died.

Well, and they take it a step further, though, they believe that he walked the earth not being

God, that he walked by the power of the Holy Spirit, the same

Holy Spirit we can walk by. And by the way, we can do bigger things than even Jesus could. And that's their theology.

It's even bigger than just the kenosis theory at the cross. But at the cross, the reason it becomes really important at the cross is if Jesus Christ was not

God in his death, then he suffered a temporal death, not an eternal death.

And if he suffered a temporal death, he can only pay the punishment for one human being.

And it would take him all eternity to do it. The fact is, the reason he had to be

God on that cross when he died is because his eternal nature is what makes his punishment an eternal punishment, that he can suffer for more than one person and suffer it eternally because his nature is eternal.

But if he gives up that eternal nature, then you're dead in your sin. And so it's directly connected to the resurrection in that he rose bodily and as God and as man as well, because it has to continue in that eternal state.

So that is continuously being paid for. So he rose bodily, which would be the only possible fulfillment of a premillennial view, right,

Drew? And I'm just saying, by the way, it's not even here.

OK, here. But Jim did tell me he is working. He thinks that he can show that the resurrection is required for not just the

Davidic covenant, but the other covenants as well. So I think this that, you know, tidal wave of scripture tsunami is about to cave in on you.

I think he was on when he was on a month or a month or so ago, he said he was going to talk to you about doing a teaching of premillennialism.

Yeah. So I think you should let him do that. I think we should. But we also have to we also have to get the debate set up with him and Justin Peters over who is the 12th apostle, because we still have to get that.

So let me I'm going to put you guys backstage, but you guys can comment in the private chat and let me know when you want to come in, because we're gonna bring in some other guests here.

We want to go ahead and I just as a transition, I just want to say that they wish that there was a different vaccine that was made and it would be for all the

SBC liberalism disease that is out there. Well, speaking of that, let's bring in Dr.

Casey Butner, who is here. And so let me just hey, Drew, you said that you have a doctor friend.

Well, this is Dr. Casey. I think they say you spoke to two doctors that, you know, and yeah, yeah, don't we won't let anyone know he's a paper doctor.

Not like Anthony, you know, his doctor is in theology, not, you know, medicine.

But, you know, as long as you got, you know, the doctor in front,

I mean, Dr. MacArthur, he's just got an honorary doctorate. He's not a real doctor, but we call him doctor anyway.

So yeah, as long as you got the doctor in front, you know, yeah, you could practice medicine then.

Yeah, sure. Bring it on. All right. I'll submit myself to testing. Sure. All right.

So, Dr. Casey Butner, you are a pastor down there in Winter Garden, Florida.

And so, folks, if you're if you're in that area, good church to go to. I'm also going to bring in Dr.

Sorry, Pastor Dominic Gamaldi. And he has a fellow I think that's a fellow elder at your church.

Right. Harlan Nielsen. Yes, sir. OK, so now I'm going to now this is someone new for folks to Apologetics Live.

So let me give a little bit of an introduction for Pastor Dom. And but you may be familiar with him.

He is one of the podcasters. He does street talk theology on Christian podcast community. So you can check out his podcast.

He is also comes in regularly into the theology throwdown that the Christian podcast community does once a week.

He has that. And if any of you need translation, I do speak New York in. And, you know, we have that New York heavy accent that he's got.

But I have to be careful because he is he's kind of a rough got a rough background. Pastor Dom spent a couple of years in prison, got saved in prison and is now pastoring down in Arizona.

And he's got a church there. So for a first time, welcome to the show and welcome,

Harlan, for for joining us. Now, you guys were at the SBC convention, the three of you at the lower part of the screen here.

And so I know that we did a show two weeks ago about the SBC and some of the things and I wasn't on it.

And Pastor Dom was like, I was there. There's things I'd like to say as someone who is an eyewitness.

And I know, Dr. Casey, you were there. There's a couple of things I want to do. I want to give you guys a chance to say for each of you.

I'm going to start with Pastor Casey and then Pastor Dom. I want you guys to be able to say where you guys are at as far as your church with the

SBC. Some of the things I do want to talk about tonight that we'll get into is the messengers.

I want to ask you guys how messengers work as far as who gets to speak at the mic. And there's a reason for that.

I'm sure you can probably guess what the reason is. So we'll get into that issue as well.

And for those that don't know what the reason is, well, then just stick on the show and you'll find out why. So, Pastor Casey, let me start with you.

You went to the convention. What was your goal in going? What was the outcome?

Where's your church stand right now with the SBC? Right on. That's a great question. You know, we have been engaged and all the way back in Birmingham when

I'm in 2019, when critical race theory was voted in. So it's the first time we are.

Can you hear me? All right. Yep. Yep. I just muted. I muted Pastor Dom. He was talking. Gotcha. Fantastic.

Well, you know, our concerns were heightened then. And then obviously, when you have concerns, you start noticing everything else.

And so nevertheless, over the years now, we have just simply discovered one thing after another, after another, after another.

And so last year in Nashville, we brought a slew of messengers and they saw the fiasco.

They saw how the microphones are turned off and the cameras are moved according to how the liberals want it to be.

Those on stage can just simply dominate, move and ignore Robert's rules of order, all parliamentary procedures.

And continue the SBC's narrative, the worldly narrative, might

I say. Then so we saw that and came back and reported it last year.

And we have just simply seen the facts and known of them for quite a while.

And in good conscience, we thought we need to go to Anaheim. The Conservative Baptist Network has been formed.

Thousands of individuals, perhaps even churches as well, have teamed up to try and take back the

SBC. And Tom Ascol is running for president. So there was momentum there.

There was there was hope. There was a lot of prayer. There was a rallying point, especially in Nashville.

And so nevertheless, the people showed up, ironically, to California. I was expecting somewhere around five or six thousand, but over ten thousand came.

So I was impressed about how many people came. But I can't help but say that I was impressed with the messengers seeing how they voted and how they affirmed

Rick Warren. But nevertheless, we went to Anaheim to just kind of get verification as to what we already knew.

And as we were going, if perhaps God was going to revive the

SBC, we wanted to be a part of the solution. And if it was going to happen, then it would have happened.

But obviously, all of the momentum was in the opposite direction.

So nevertheless, Beulah Baptist Church in Winter Garden is where I pastor, BBCWG .org,

and we were greatly disappointed. And I came back and gave an accurate report as to what the convention did and held and everything.

So nevertheless, thank you for that. And it's a brief intro. Yeah. And I remember a certain

Shepard's conference that you attended. You you were you didn't know what critical racism theory is.

You you didn't know social justice. These were new terms for you. You were staying with Anthony and I at the at the scary

Airbnb or as I said, the Airbnb from hell. But but that's

OK, because you guys were upstairs. I had to stay downstairs and stay guard in case anyone came in. That house was literally like this, all the doors and everything was wild.

That wall could have caved in on my bedroom at any time. Yeah, it was it was an experience.

We'll put it up to that. But I remember us sitting down. This is the year that in the

Q &A that came up with Phil Johnson asking Al Muller and, you know,

Devere and Lincoln Duncan about signing the statement of social justice on the gospel and things like that.

And and there were a lot there was a lot of buzz. People going, what is this? What's what's social justice? You know, and you were very involved in the

SBC. You at that time didn't think that it was having an influence on the

SBC. I think that'd be fair to say. And the three of us sat down some some long talks late nights discussing what critical racism theory is.

And by the way, I am saying it correct. I know some people tried to correct me. CRT is racism.

So I'm saying it correctly. All right. I'm calling it what it is.

So you we sat down. And as you went home after sitting down with us and Anthony, I've said this to you, we've talked about it ourselves privately, but we've both been really impressed with what you did, because you took this and said,

OK, let me take this. You brought it home. You then went to your local SBC, started looking at the

SBC and saying, OK, let me do an evaluation here. Is is this really what's going on?

And you did your homework, but you didn't just complain about it. You you gathered guys together. You said,

OK, let's if this is what's going on, let's be part of the solution. Let's try to solve the problem.

And you worked hard locally to do that. You were willing to drive up. I know you met with Pastor Tom Askell and to meet with him, to talk to him directly.

So, you know, I don't want people to think that you just made some rash decision on what you were going to do just because you were following the crowd.

You were actually going out of your way to try to see whether to try to prove that the SBC was not going down this road.

The more you dug, the more, as you told me, the more you dug, the more you realized, no, it's fully on that path.

And I'll never forget when you called me, Pastor Casey, and you you had said, hey, Anthony, you were right.

You know, like you, but you did the work. You did the homework to to actually check to see if what we were telling you was true, which was was wonderful.

One thing I'd like you to address as we talk about this, because I mean, look, we've got to know each other really well.

We spent a lot of time together when we were down in Florida. And I obviously really respect you as a as a pastor.

And you're a sharp guy. But yet somehow.

You didn't see the social justice stuff, right? And my my perception of it is, is that there's thousands and thousands and thousands of pastors just like you who are so worried about making sure they're doing they're working with their congregations the way they need to.

They're studying to bring great messages every Sunday and that and that these things can slip through the cracks.

So I don't know if you can speak to that at all. Kind of what you feel happened and how maybe this isn't going to happen in the future with anybody in the

SBC anymore. They're going to be on the lookout for this stuff. I'm telling you, you know,

Anthony, that's that's a that's a great point that you've brought up. And it brings my mind to First Corinthians chapter 16, where it says in verse 13 to be on alert.

And if you're going to be on alert and stand firm in the faith and act like men and be strong, then you've got to be aware of what's going on around you to be to be on alert.

And especially if you're going to guard your flock, according to the book of Acts chapter 20, verse 28, if I'm going to be a faithful shepherd, then

I have to be able to guard my flock. And so you're correct. I've really gone the extra mile and done my dead level best to make sure that I have the facts and that I'm able to come back and report to our church.

What is truth? What's going on? So unlike Pilate, who really put truth at a low, low level, saying what is truth?

We value truth because Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. What I found is that there is a very strong culture, almost like a worldview within the

Southern Baptist Convention that pastors do not realize. That is.

And and so you perceive evangelism in a certain way, according to the

SBC way. You perceive discipleship. You perceive preaching.

You perceive all kinds of ecclesiology and ministries and everything according to what is acceptable.

And there's a culture to where you would not double cross a friend, even if that friend is unscriptural.

There's that Eleventh Commandment. There are so many things that encompass,

I'll just say, I mean, a view how you see within the SBC. And obviously it took me going to California and staying in a house that was nearly going to fall down and hanging out with you guys late at night and really to hear some objective thoughts.

And I'll never forget you guys mentioning for the first time there's issues in the SBC. And, you know,

I'd had my faithful head in the books getting through New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

I'd had my head in the Bible studying for sermons and pastoring my flock and had not been able to be alert and aware as to everything that is going on.

And I perceive as well that that is a major thing that's happening within the

Southern Baptist Convention with with all of the churches. Goodness, there's nearly 50 ,000 churches with all of the faithful conservative pastors that are out in the country that are pastoring their flock, that are preaching the word, that won't that have nothing to do with this.

They they do not know that this is happening in the same way that I was enabled to come across this truth and start to dig it out for myself.

And it's taken years. There are still, to your point, Dr. Anthony, thousands and thousands of faithful pastors that do not know that every area of the

Southern Baptist Convention is so detrimentally compromised that I literally refer to it now as a ship that is shipwrecked, according to First Timothy, chapter one, verses 18 and 19.

Some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. And, you know, for years now, two years,

I would say I've held on to hope just simply referring to the International Mission Board.

OK, NAM is woke. Everything else, you know, Lifeway, it's all, you know, a big mess.

But what about our missionaries? And our missionaries are why we cooperate together by and large, along with theological education or things.

But since I have just completely separated myself from the Southern Baptist Convention and announced to our church,

I no longer want to consider myself a Southern Baptist pastor. I have continued to have missionaries, church planters, pastors, people, messengers.

It is call and email constantly every single day. The facts that they found, the disheartening that they found.

Plus, on the other side, so many who have said, wow, I have seen what you're saying and hear what you said.

I see the same things. Now, what do we do about it? So it's a major blind spot to have grown up in the

Southern Baptist Convention and to blindly trust your leaders, because right now the whole system has been hijacked.

It is not what it used to be. So, for example, you might have schoolteachers who taught back in the 50s and 60s, and you could pray before you started off your day and you had the

Ten Commandments on the wall. Well, public school is no longer anywhere close to what it used to be.

It's so humanistically driven that it is by far beyond anything that a faithful parent should put their child in.

And if they have children in the public school system, they should really pray and ask God for help on how to rearrange their life, even if they have to move and consolidate, to be able to get their child out of harm's way.

First Corinthians 15, 33 says that bad company corrupts good character. So that's not an option.

And now I see the same thing with the SBC. We have to be faithful to study out the facts, to find them, to report them back to our flock.

And then at the same time, we see it now. We're like, well, we cannot subject ourselves to this.

We need to come out from among them. It's too far gone. So nevertheless, that's some of what

I had to say. Yeah. So so this is a question for both you, Pastor Casey, as well as Dominic here, who

I don't think Andrew introduced right now. Yeah, well, I was going to do. I did introduce, but good that you're paying attention.

But well, I don't know if there's any more you want to introduce. Let's let I want to hear from Pastor Dominic where what he thought being at the convention and where his church is at.

OK. And then I got a question for you both. Yeah. And then then go to your question. So, Pastor Dominic, where you went to the convention, what were you what was your purpose for going?

What do you walk away with? And where's your church at right now? Yeah. So mine's a little different in the fact that I went to Birmingham, too.

And I happened to at seven o 'clock in the morning of the day the business meeting was going to start.

I walked in the weight room in the hotel and I happened to meet a guy named Curtis Woods. So I didn't know

Curtis from anywhere, but I met him and we were working out with weights together and just, you know, talking about theology and stuff like that.

And and that's and I spent a few hours with him, if I want to say.

And then later on, I met him with my wife and things of that nature. And then when he got up to the floor and introduced this critical race theory as an analytical tool,

I had no idea what this was. I didn't have no idea what it was, but it just didn't sound right.

So that's how I got introduced to because I was just going down there to fellowship. But I had no idea about any of this critical race theory, like the brother was saying before.

And I want to back up just a second, Andrew, if I may. The Southern Baptist Convention, I did many, many years in prison.

So when I came out, I joined the Southern Baptist Church and I was under the leadership there for about a year.

They ordained me, licensed me to the ministry, sent me to seminary.

And when I went to Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, most of the teachers there were sound and reformed.

Dr. Harry Haney, who learned under Douglas Moo, Jonathan Gerson, his son, was the professor of history there, church history.

John Lake, who studied from Southern at that time when Southern was good. So again,

I was able to come under this. So this is a sad day. This is,

I mean, I, you know, Italians, we're a little emotional and stuff like that. And Harlan will tell you, this is not something that we, you know, we gloat over.

But at the end of the day, this is a sinking ship that's loaded with liberal theology, critical racism theory,

Andrew. And over the years from 1920 and in this, you know, the ship is sailed.

So what do you do? You just hang on. Yes, the convention was good to me at one time.

But at the end of the day, I know a lot more than a lot of pastors and a lot of congregants because they just don't know.

And you can't blame somebody for not knowing, but they just don't know. But we know and because we know we're responsible.

So last night we had our first business meeting after the convention and after much prayer and writing,

I wrote a little something to the congregation and it was well received.

We had a lot of questions and we formed, we're forming a committee, which

I again, that's a story for another day. But eventually and Harlan, my fellow elders on that committee, we're going to get a few members from the congregation and basically the elders are ready.

We are governed by the elders, but with, you know, you know, the congregation makes the last decision.

We bring the doctrinal theological issues to them. But we think that we probably, right,

Harlan, we'll probably be out of the Southern Baptist Convention at our next business meeting, Lord willing.

Let me let me just interrupt to show this. I wanted to catch on camera, folks. There's Anthony stealing my basil.

Not yet. I was just about to. The basil is not out here. It must be inside.

So I might have to walk in there to go get it. Oh, no, I know where it is. But it's a nice, you have a nice cucumber there.

You got a nice green pepper. Yeah. So, yeah, there's I got I got some here. I took the tomatoes earlier.

So I wanted to catch it so you guys could see when I when I claim later he was he was stealing my my.

So sorry about that, Pastor Dom. Don't beat me up or anything. This guy scares me. This guy down here.

He's got that New York accent, you know. So you you did you want to read what you had read to your congregation?

Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to see if Pastor Casey agrees with this. So this is this is what we read to this is what

I read last night to the congregation. I said I've been I have been in recent discussion with my fellow elders concerning the state of the

Southern Baptist Convention. This was the third convention that I've attended. And pragmatism is infiltrating the convention at a rapid pace, namely with its implementation of critical racism theory as an analytical tool and other pragmatic ideologies that have come alongside the gospel.

Be reminded, the gospel of Jesus Christ needs nothing to stand behind it because it stands solely on Christ's death, burial and his resurrection.

The North American Mission Board lacks transparency and they are being investigated in some areas by the

Supreme Court. Also, the seminaries in many areas are being infiltrated with woke ideologies.

One such worldview is that the concept that if one is white, he is by default a racist and complete restorative repentance is not available in this area as a possession of lesser amounts of melatonin found within the evangelical found within the skin tone automatically confer special privilege over others would visibly more.

There are prominent evangelical leaders that have gone on to expose it unless one makes this admission alongside definitive work to make social and or cultural amends to those persons.

True salvation is in question and especially that this must be included in the gospel message of Christ to evangelize.

This is not the true message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which depicts that we are all one in the

Savior. Paul states it in this way, by inspiration of the spirit, there's neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free.

There's neither male nor female for all in one in Christ Jesus. With that being said, we want to be careful what our donations are being used for, because biblically it is the local church that should be sending missionaries, not some entity involved with the church or churches.

Therefore, it is the church's responsibility to send missionaries. Then I said the Baptist faith and message reiterates what the

Bible depicts about pastors. This role, according to the Baptist faith and message in First Timothy 2, 9 through 15 is for men only.

Paul in his exposition of this text goes back to the creation account, making this a universal mandate.

But the credentials committee took precedent over the biblical mandate and they reiterated the following reinterpretation of scripture concerning the office of pastor in light of Saddleback Church ordaining free women pastors.

And I'm verbatim here on the credentials committee. The credentials committee reported to the

Southern Baptist Convention during its June 14, 15, 2022 annual meeting that pursuant to SBC bylaw 8 and SBC Constitution article 3, that is unable to form an opinion regarding the relationship of Saddleback Church to the

Southern Baptist Convention until clarity is provided regarding the use of title pastor for staff positions with different responsibility and authority than that of the lead pastor.

Therefore, the credentials committee makes the following recommendation. The credentials committee recommends that the

Southern Baptist Convention during its June 14, 15, 2002 annual meeting in Anaheim, California, form a study committee, the members of which shall be appointed by the president to report to the

Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting in June 13th and 14th, 2023 in New Orleans, a recommendation providing clarity regarding the office of a pastor estate in the

Baptist faith and message article 6. The church, given the many different offices within the Baptist church, which include pastor in the title, though often with very different responsibilities.

So this was my response to that. This goes against the clear teaching of scripture. The Baptist faith and message 2000, all this being said, the elders and myself will be forming a committee consisting of the elders and hopefully at least three members of our congregation to bring a recommendation at the next business meeting to either continue fellowship with the

SBC or discontinue fellowship with the SBC. And basically, that's what we brought to the congregation and we're going to form a committee.

And with these two elders right here and our fellow elders, we're going to recommend that we discontinue fellowship with the

SBC and hopefully and prayerfully, we'll be able to vote that and get that voted in at our next business meeting.

You had a question for for both these men. I do. So, you know, you may not know the answers to this, but I know that there are many thousands of SBC churches across the country and a very small percentage of them are actually represented at each of the national meetings.

Yeah, so great point. Yeah. So how many churches in the

SBC, small churches, do you think still exist out there that still have no clue about social justice or or they are dead set against it?

Because I just, you know, I know I mentioned this to you, Casey, as well, is that, I mean, maybe you guys need to have a phone -a -thon and call every single

SBC church in the country and get everybody there next year to the convention and do it one last shot to try to get to try to get this going, knowing that you guys can all donate one dollar a year, drop all your donations to the one dollar a year and still send your your six messengers.

So I'm throwing that out there. But but first answer the question about the churches that you see out there, all those small churches that are not represented.

What do you think about them? May I? Please. Yeah, I know

I threw a lot at you. No, no, that but I and I want to hear from Pastor Casey, too.

But this and Harlan's got something to say. So I was speaking today. The problem is the people in the pews know nothing about this stuff.

Because I don't even know if some of the pastors really know what's going on, because it's expensive to go to these conventions and it's not easy.

And and here's another thing coming from New York. I think the fix is in. I think NAM sends so many people to these conventions because they are loaded with money.

I think that they I think the fix is in with these things. And I don't think the people in the pews understand.

And these small churches don't have the money to send the messengers. And then the other churches don't even really know what's going on.

I would. The only reason I know is because this church turned around and and sent us.

So we know or else I don't even I think if you mentioned this to half the churches in the

SBC, even more, they don't even know this stuff even exists. I would unfortunately have to concur.

And by way of example, I got a phone call today from a phenomenal church pastor,

Pastor Stephen at First Baptist Winter Haven, about an hour and a half south of us here in central

Florida. And he is championing a grassroots effort to try and work towards doing exactly what you just mentioned,

Dr. Anthony. And nevertheless, his his father was strategically involved in the

Great Resurgence. And he has a lot of hope for being able to take the same measures his dad did.

And so nevertheless, he's starting with the local associations. And perhaps if he can get 10 or 15 pastors from every association in Florida, we can start with our own

Florida Baptist Convention and then kind of work from there and get to the national convention.

And, you know, in his plan, which I just kind of really summarized it, that's that's nowhere near close to all that he is working to do.

His plan sounded great. And right up to the end, his last statement was why

I am not willing to go down that path. Besides the countless amounts of hours that it takes away, takes the pastor away from being faithful to his flock and studying to preach the word, his at the end of the day, what it comes down to is getting messengers to the convention to vote.

And here's the problem with that. As I saw in the last two conventions, the entire system is simply hijacked.

And so you can have a very clear vote and yet the stage call it as needing to be done with ballots.

And so as we look around, we think, no, that was easily a majority call. You don't have to call for the ballots.

And then the stage would call for the ballots. And then from there, you just simply don't trust what's going on.

You can't there's no cameras on the ballots being counted. You don't know who's doing the counting. You just don't know any of that anymore.

And I hate to think that way. But when everything gets turned so drastically compared to what your eyes see in the room, even our messengers from our church was like, well, this doesn't match up.

What I'm seeing and what I'm hearing in the room isn't matching. So nevertheless, even if you took a grassroots effort and you've got 20 ,000 people there next year, it's very obvious to me that as soon as you get to the floor, you're going to be ignored.

The microphone is going to be turned off. Your ballots aren't going to be counted. And for example, if the vote doesn't go the way that the that the stage wants it, then they'll simply call for another vote and delay it.

And brother, for the presidency, they waited hours and hours and hours for a revote, did not tell anybody that there was going to be a revote.

And me and one of my messengers were out getting a cup of coffee and the rest of our messengers were texting and calling us like crazy.

They're voting now again. They're voting now again. We're like, what? We were waiting, you know. And and so nevertheless, there it was very strategic.

And we found that they're going to do what they're going to do no matter what, because the whole system's been hijacked.

OK, so I want to I want to dig in with that because there's some things with the way that the messengers work.

There's ways that for those of us who are not SBC are not so familiar with. So first off, and either one of you can can answer this.

But Andrew, one second, I just want to say just a couple of things. Is that OK? Of course it is.

I didn't. I mean, he's got to put up with you, you know, preaching every week. So, I mean, he's got to be a guy of wisdom to put up with you,

I'm sure. Yeah, I didn't want to interrupt you. This is good stuff. But anyway, to me, when

I sit here and think about it, if you look at how the politics is working, our government is working, it's a prime example to me of what's crept in at the

Southern Baptist Convention, the things that they're using, the way they're doing things, it's turned political and politics has no room there.

I've been following this stuff for about three years and I've watched it and watched it.

And I haven't liked what's been going on. They're not being truthful on a lot of things.

They're not being open with us. And when you lose that trust, you've lost an awful lot there.

But the straw for me really was with the Saddleback Church. They had that golden opportunity there to have the intestinal fortitude, so to speak, of what a pastor is.

All you got to do is check with Brother Paul in the scripture and you've got your answer. And that, to me, was really an end gate.

You know, the sad part about it is the great true gift of God that he's given us, besides our salvation, is the word of God and the gift of the

Holy Spirit. And unfortunately, it was designed, to back up a little bit, it was designed for a roadmap for God's people to society, to how society should function.

And they've turned it around and they're trying to get the scripture to conform to society.

And I just don't want to be a part of it anymore. We have a flock here we need to protect. That's our responsibility.

And so that's my two cents. Thank you. I appreciate that.

But here's the question for you guys who are SBC, right? So let me ask this, what is the whole way that the messengers works?

In other words, you guys, you pay dues, you pay some money to SBC that allows you to send messengers.

How are the number of messengers determined? What is the function of the messenger?

Let me just start with those two questions. So in the Southern Baptist Convention, we pool our money for missions and theological education and so forth.

And each church is allowed messengers. And depending on how much money you give to the cooperative program, they kind of tell you how many messengers you're allowed to send up to a certain amount of things like 12.

So mega churches can't dominate. So at very least, even a very small

Baptist church can still send five or six messengers. So it's a very fair system to have equal representation from all of the participating churches.

And you have to be in person. And then to be a messenger from a Southern Baptist church, you have to be an active member.

And then in addition to being an active member, you have to, in a business meeting, have your church congregation vote to affirm that these members are our messengers.

So each church has the opportunity to say, yes, we believe that these messengers will go on our behalf and vote our values biblically accordingly.

So nevertheless, then those messengers are able to have their information sent to the

Southern Baptist Convention and everything is uploaded. And so when you arrive, all your name tags and everything, everything is checked off.

And so only the messengers who have a ballot and a name tag and everything are able to vote.

And that that's how the system is controlled so that you get in fairly.

And in times past, it has worked rather well because you have the ability to have representation from a small church anywhere in the country and still be able to get those ideas to the floor.

OK, so let me ask this. Who then is allowed to speak at the microphones?

I mean, I'm watching some of this online. I see that. And you said you guys said that, you know, those on the platform are controlling who gets to speak at the mics.

But what is the policy with being able to speak at the microphone? OK, you just go get in line.

There's microphones everywhere. And in a room of 10 ,000 people, you can't even see where all of the microphones are that them are.

There's huge TV screens everywhere. So you just simply look up and most of it's done like that.

So like when Rick Warren was speaking, I was 20 feet away from him. But the majority of the room couldn't even see him and they were looking on the television.

So nevertheless, you just walk up to a microphone. And if perhaps there's enough time, then and you're there and you have a well written resolution, then it'll actually make it to the resolutions committee.

Now, that's a whole different subject in itself, because the resolutions committee has the ability to table a resolution and won't even make it.

So they they they actually judge whether or not it's written well and they can judge whether or not it needs to come out to the people.

So a lot of stuff gets tabled. And, for example, Ted Traylor at Olive Baptist Church up in the panhandle of Florida in Nashville stood up and he made a motion to get rid of the resolutions committee.

And that got obviously swept underneath the rug, didn't seem to make it to the committee.

So so can anybody like if I was to attend there, say I'm going to I go to Southern Baptist Church, but I'm not one of the messengers.

Can I walk up to a mic and speak? Yeah, you sure can. But if you want to make a resolution and account, then you need to go online and follow the prescribed measures.

It needs to be well written so that it fits the form. And in that process, it doesn't have to be a resolution.

I mean, can I say just anything I want or does it have to be a resolution? Depends on what time of the business that we're in.

There's there's open mic time. And for example, you know, the the president would have the opportunity or the option to say, you know, this is kind of out of line and a subject for a different time.

And be polite. Is there a time limit of how long someone has to speak? You'll get cut off if you're long winded and wasting everybody's time.

So they encourage you to have your thoughts crisp and clean. And when you walk up there and even to read what you have said.

OK. And the reason I'm asking this is there's a couple of things that that I had noticed. I mean, the previous year, this year, in the way they handled it right, there were some things where we saw a couple of years ago, even when they voted for CRT being a tool, they decided, oh, we're just going to bucket all these things together.

So they took that one like, oh, that's here's a resolution. Here's a resolution. Now we're going to take these four and put them together.

So it's all or nothing. And it's a pure like, well, no, wait, let's do this one at a time.

But what I noticed was, you know, and Chris Hunhold says this says that's what

Tom Buck talked about back then. Most of the messengers did not know what CRT was to committee.

Now, I'm bringing this one up for this reason. There was issues with Tom Buck, Tom Buck's wife, who they were messengers as far as I understand, were not allowed to speak.

Now, they've made a big deal about abuse. And I don't know how much you guys know about the

Tom Buck situation, but if you do, I'll let you speak to it, but I'll just give the high level.

Drew said this about it. Look how they treated Jennifer Buck when they want to talk about abusive women.

So the issue they made this big deal about that they're addressing abuse. Jennifer Buck, many years ago, had written a paper, you know, some that Tom and her had explained when they would do marriage counseling, they would deal with people that might have rough marriages, and they would share that early in their marriage, many years ago, decades ago,

Tom had a level that they said was abusive. It wasn't physical, sexual.

He was verbally abusive. And they grew from that, they matured from that.

Now, some people are trying to say that they came out and basically were blackmailing Tom Buck, saying they got a draft copy of what she had written.

And anyone that does any writing, you get a draft copy. And usually when you get the final copy, it's much less.

That didn't work so well for Anthony's book on the origin of kinds. He gave it to me and I doubled the size of it because we added a whole lot more into it.

But but no, but I mean, your first draft is is nothing like what your final copy is.

It goes through edits and revisions. And so only one person was given that draft.

And then then it's being used by by basically a seminary to to threaten and to blackmail

Tom Buck, who is very much on the conservative side supporting Tom Askell.

I mean, it just it looked a whole lot like I think, Pastor Dom, you know, you or Herlin said there, you know, it's like the world's

Democrats. I mean, it's the same political maneuvering that that's going on. We saw this with Stone the year before.

All of a sudden there's accusations against him. And it's amazing that, you know, I was able to be in a private meeting with Mike Stone and he said it was amazing that soon as he was out of office, they revealed the video that proved that there was never anything that he did wrong.

But they held on to it for the year that he was he was there. Right. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, here, look, you're innocent.

You didn't do anything wrong. The same thing with the Bucks. And so here's Jennifer Buck not being allowed to bring to the floor, from what

I can gather, the issue of this blackmail against her family.

And then someone who's not even a messenger like Rick Warren can come and take six minutes of the time or, you know, more time than any other person that I heard.

You know, and I just I'm looking at this from an outsider and saying, do the messengers, is it like the messengers, are they the ones that have the right to speak or is it just anybody that can speak on whatever they want?

I mean, like, how is it that Rick Warren can just walk in there and say, hey, guys,

I wrote the Bible. Oh, wait, no, he didn't say that. But it was almost that. I mean, he claims he basically claims that if you've ever

I guess if you've ever read his book, he's trained you because he said he trained one point one million pastors more than all the

SBC churches combined or seminaries combined. But there's like three hundred thousand pastors in America.

So he trained according to him, he would he would be saying he trained every single American pastor and most of them in the world.

He personally like I think he got a wrong definition. So like, was there something in your minds as people who are there on the ground that was a different treatment between the

Bucks and the and the others? And I guess before you answer, I'll give you time to answer that, because I see

I see our another pastor in the background, Pastor Josiah, there that's I can see from the way he's on camera here that he is trying to say,

I believe that it is time for us to promote our sponsor, MyPillow.

So so he's making a good a good transition there for us. This show is promoted is supported by MyPillow.

If you'd like to get a wonderful sleep like Pastor Josiah there does, even during the show,

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And if you want to get yourself a good American made product, get yourself a good night of sleep. Make sure you go to MyPillow .com

use promo code SFE. Thank you for that that hint back there, Pastor Josiah.

I brought mine with me. It's a great pillow. That's true. OK, we should we could announce that. So you and I both have our pillows packed because we're headed out to we'd get this at the end.

But you and I are headed down to Ocean City, Maryland tomorrow. We're going to be going down for the

Repentant Witness Evangelism Boot Camp. This is put on by Christian Collegiate Network.

This is a outreach that you and I enjoy thoroughly. And this is one of our favorites.

It used to always be in New York City, which we loved. But this it's going to be in Ocean City, Maryland.

This this is an intense training. Anthony, I'll be doing some training.

We start off early morning, eight, nine o 'clock in the morning. We eight o 'clock breakfast prayer nine from nine to twelve.

Anthony, you're doing the training. We're going to be dealing with issues of precept. Anthony, I think you're doing two to basically two precept talks and one on on how to how to talk with transgenders.

I'm doing a precept talk, open air preaching talk and another talk that I forgot. But I'll be prepared for it.

Don't worry. I'm also doing the rights. How do we know? Where do we get rights from? That's a precept talk.

That's a type of precept. I mean, everything's a precept talk if it's real apologetics.

We'll be doing presuppositional apologetics. And then and then like in the afternoon, basically from like one to eleven at night, we're on the streets evangelizing nonstop.

And we do this for like four or five days. So if you want to get some real training in evangelism, go to Repentant Witness.

There's Repentant Witness dot com. And it's just look up Repentant Witness evangelism and you'll find it.

And join us next year. Chris Honholds is saying, remember to sleep, Andrew. I will,

Chris, when I'm dead. You know, I can sleep then. So, so as you guys are talking about what happened at the

SBC, you know, Pastor Casey, Dr. Casey, you were giving me a play by play with a number of videos, texting him to me that you were shooting for your cell phone.

And I was astounded at how many guys got up kindly to ask about copying sermons and their microphones got cut.

Yeah. So they weren't allowed to talk at all. And I mean, look, you get kicked out of seminary if you copy somebody's paper or sermon.

And yet you've got guys in the SBC that are copying sermons and plagiarizing. Is this almost like the dad who went to the school board and wanted to read what the kids have in their school library?

But his mic was cut because of indecency laws with him reading it.

You know that the the FCC has laws against reading pornography, but those books that he was reading were, you know, because you can't read that to children, but the kids can go to the library and pick it up.

But I don't know, it smacks kind of similar to that. Well, cut your mic off because you're going to say something we don't like.

Pastor Dom. Yeah. You know, I was thinking, you know, when when Ed Litton let

Rick Warren preach it was a nine minute sermon, by the way, Andrew, when he let him preach there for nine minutes with really no basis and no resolution, just kind of.

And that's why I was asking that, because it didn't seem like he had a resolution or a question or it was just it was here.

I'm just going to get up and tell you how wonderful I am and what I've done for the SBC. And hey, don't forget, women can be pastors, too.

Just redefine everything. And he got up there and said, I'm not here to defend myself. And that's all he did.

He said, I'm just like Jesus. And and if he would have did that and sat down, but he says

I'm going to be like and he spoke for nine minutes and Litton is giving them these amens. Right.

So the question is, because that was done out of order. And if somebody wants to ask

Litton about his plagiarism, they just cut the mic or Miss Jennifer, who wants to get up and speak.

And he just wants to cut her off. I mean, you can see, again, the fixes in because you let a guy preach a nine minute sermon about how great he is.

And basically he never slept for the last 30 years because he ordained all these pastors. I mean, if you look at the math, what he said,

I mean, there was no way, you know, he he ordained more pastors than any Southern Baptist seminary and stuff.

And then he's got most of he's in California. He's on his home turf and you got all these people cheering from and stuff like that.

I mean, so if you're going to let that in, then why not talk about the plagiarism that you really never apologized for?

So I why not have it in when you let this other stuff in? So again, for me, the fix was in and it was there was no equality there amongst.

And again, he wasn't bringing up a resolution. He was just trying to convince people that how right he was and basically ordaining women pastors is not the main thing, you know, but I let me ask this question.

You know, we had a biologist on here, an evolutionary biologist. I asked him a biology question.

Pastors, we had two pastors here. Maybe I can ask you a theological question, you know, could

Pastor Casey, Pastor Dominic, maybe you can help me. Can you help me? What is a pastor?

As a bind in scripture. Well, I get back after three, it's right.

Whatever the scripture says. Yeah. And, you know, to your point as well, when it comes to giving the floor to Rick Warren for so long, and at the same time, just in the same day, cutting off conservative pastors, literally being rude to them.

It was so unprofessional, so unpastoral, it was embarrassing to sit there and watch

Ed Litton cut these guys off. And so you would have a good hearted pastor walk up and start talking about plagiarism.

And if you were there, if you've seen the memes or the clips and everything, then you know exactly what I'm saying.

In that Litton, Lion Litton is what I refer to him as, cut the guy off.

And it was awful to sit there. And so everybody just dealt with it.

And then you have, you know, Tom Buck and his wife who have a very valid point that is extremely relevant.

And so he was called out of order, but he was in order. He mentioned that it was irrelevant to the situation, but it was very relevant.

So nevertheless, Tom's point was, we've been lambasted, right, for speaking up for victims.

How can victims who speak up in the future be assured that they're not going to be run through the muck by Baptist press and the

SPC elites? The answer is they have no guarantee.

And so the entire sexual abuse scandals that are going on in the Southern Baptist Convention can offer no guarantee to those who are truly victims, because when you have a true victim, there is a fear there.

There is ministry that needs to happen there. But unless you know the right people, you're not going to get the right limelight or the right service or the right ministry or anything.

So, nevertheless, that happened. And then for Rick Warren to sit there and brag about himself baptizing 56 ,000, sending 26 ,000 missionaries, having 78 ,000 members, 9 ,000

Bible studies. These inflated numbers simply tie into the idol of the

SPC, which is numbers. And here is another reason why we are as a church are so convinced that we just simply cannot be a part of this idolatry, because when

Rick Warren got through with his idolatrous speech there, the room stood up and applauded him.

And so here's the fact, the messengers that were there right now, they are the ones who have the ability to make a difference.

So you look around the room and you're like, all right, it's 10 ,000 people plus in this room. And the majority of them are giving him a standing ovation when he just really revealed that women can be pastors.

If you have the right numbers, you can get away with anything you absolutely want. You can just simply ignore the

Bible. And so the means are compromised completely through pragmatism.

And so the Southern Baptist Convention, not only in a lot of the degree programs, but in the culture of the

Southern Baptist Convention, you have pragmatism that rules the day and you've redefined success to an

American worldview rather than a biblical worldview. So the means are compromised. Now, the means are compromised with the messengers and everything else and how we do ministry, but also the ends are compromised and the ends are simply wrong.

The ends are the numbers game. And so you have all of these braggadocious numbers about how many children that were falsely converted through BBS.

You have all of these inflated church plants around the world in all these different countries that are called church plants, but they're not churches.

They're just a community leader who is now studying the Bible in his home and those don't last and they're gone.

I know this from missionaries from the IMB who have resigned and told me this first person.

And so you have all of these facts. You have the means that are compromised and have the ends that are compromised. How are you going to fix all this, especially when the messengers that show up are demonstrating that they absolutely love what

Rick Warren says? So Rick Warren is stereotypical of the idolatry and the lust and the pursuit of the

Southern Baptist Convention. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know, Pastor Casey, too,

I mean, you see Ed Litton was amen in what he was saying. I mean, you're supposed to be a moderator and he's amen in what would.

What Rick Warren is saying, you hear him behind the the moderating microphone, amen to what he was saying, which was really for me, that was right.

Pastor Casey, that's sickening. You hear him amening with what Litton was saying, you know, what Warren was saying.

Yeah, you're exactly right. He abandoned his moderating duties and became partial. And in doing so, he completely shirked his duties.

And not only that, but completely using his power out of balance to bring in an outsider like Tony Evans, who's completely woke to push the entire process towards this urban initiative.

And so this Unified Project, this card was in every seat as we came back from one of our breaks.

And so ten to a thousand of these were printed and everybody got one. And so Tony Evans is the man right now, along with Rick Warren for the

SBC. So if you want to know where the SBC is going, you just simply look at this woke initiative and you look at women pastors and you look at pragmatism, you look at easy believism, you look at numbers, you look at all these things and you think, and now the seminary's got critical race theory and they've got tons of theological students that testify to the fact that they have had to sit through all of this garbage and it's sickening.

And so where do you start? Well, right now, I could not in good conscience recommend even one of our seminaries because I've had firsthand testimonies from them all.

And it's really, really, really, really sad. So nevertheless,

I have just recently within the last year come to this conclusion and it's been a long, hard road because I reckon with Charles Spurgeon and how he dealt with the great downgrade of the

Baptist Union and the heartache that he experienced. And so it's like a rottenness to your soul.

And dealing with that, I've just simply said to myself, well,

I'm called to be faithful to my flock. I'm called to save a convention and we need to take our education within our own church doors.

And we need to do missions within our own church doors and send missionaries. And we don't need a convention.

We have been better together in a lot of ways, but now the whole system is poisoned.

And so now what we need to do is be the church, be the local church and do what the local church is supposed to do and equip the saints for service, preach the word of God and get away from all of spinning our wheels.

I believe with all my heart that the pastors that are going to go after trying to save the Southern Baptist Convention are going to be neglecting their flock.

So let me let me give a recommendation. And then what I want to do is we've got some comments I saved up. I want to do rapid fire. We've got some people backstage to bring in and try and do that in the next half hour.

So real quick, you know, let me encourage you guys, especially you two pastors here,

G3 Church Network. Consider joining that. It is a G3, G3men .org

is the website. They have a church network that is developed. I am in that.

So it is it is what the Southern Baptist tried to originally start. And so I think there is a another way we can go.

Let me let me bring up some comments, read them to you. And I want this is rapid fire. So I want to get quick, quick comments from either one of you on some of these things that we save.

So this one is from a Facebook user says, Pray for us. A group of us have a meeting with our pastors and deacons to discuss our concerns with the

SBC. We'll meet with them before bringing it before the congregation.

One of our pastors is an SBC lifer, and it will take some serious convincing to get him to see that we should leave the

SBC. So real quick. I mean, first off, pray for this person. We don't know their name. If you want to get your name shown, just go to ProjectsLive .com.

There's instructions to get your name to allow Facebook to put your name on here. But so let's be praying for this person.

But real quick to either of you. What advice would you have for this person as they're going to be meeting with their pastors and deacons to discuss this rapid fire?

Either one of you. You're muted, though. All right.

All right. Three. All right. Here we go. Rapid fire. You've got four Southern Baptist presidents, convention presidents who have affirmed the fact that homosexuality is

OK by saying it will not send you to hell. So James Meredith endorsed his son's sermon.

You get J .D. Greer, Ed Litton, and now Bart Barber has been found to have tweeted that eight years ago.

That's God's line in the sand. He rained down fire, hell and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah.

And then also in Romans chapter one, he turns the mind over to a depraved mind. That's God's line in the sand.

That should be our line in the sand as well. And so with that, the subject of homosexuality was not even brought up at the convention.

It's not being defended. It's not being talked about. It's being infiltrated just like critical race theory has.

So we're moving from bad to worse. A little leaven spoils the whole lump.

There you go. All right. K .T. says, it's interesting to hear a

New York accent versus a New Jersey accent. I'd love to hear how each of them pronounce the word garbage.

So Pastor Dom. Garbage. Yeah. So obviously I pronounce it properly.

All right. Chris Honhold says this. Pastor Dom doing a fantastic job.

This is when you were writing, you're reading the letter you wrote. Pastor Dom doing a fantastic job informing his church of what happened.

Would that more church, more pastors do such a job informing their churches instead of entrusting them to the platform?

And he's got a trademark on the word platform. But, you know, I know Pastor Dom asked

Dr. K .T. for your advice. Do you think that what he had read was well -written?

Would you have any improvements on something like that if someone wanted to read something for their congregation?

Yeah, I thought it was excellent. And I highly recommend that as well. But include homosexuality too.

That is providing life for the Lord. And it's when we should also make a stand.

And that's where our culture is going. The Southern Baptist Convention is pragmatically embracing the ways of the world to keep its big tent big.

And so if it will soft pedal these areas and do things like First Baptist Orlando has done and bring in sensitivity training to its employees so that they're trained as to how not to offend the

LGBTQ community, then they are enabling the world to creep into the church.

And that's exactly what Southern Baptist Convention is doing as well. All right. Another comment that I got from Drew earlier.

He says, Pastor Dom is absolutely right. There are many who just don't know, but there are many who purposely avoid it.

My former church refused to believe that Acts 29 was full of CRT teachings. So you guys kind of addressed this.

But real quick, if someone's in an SBC church, we realize that there's a lot of people that don't know and want to keep their heads in the sand.

What can I, if I was an SBC member in a church, in an

SBC church, what can I do? What should I do? Recognize whether or not you're loyal to a convention or Christ, for one.

But you're asking what can they do? Yeah, what do you guys, what would be your suggestions?

I mean, I think you're obviously going to say talk to your pastor, right? But what would be some of the steps of what a person can do other than just say, well,

I'm going to leave? Because I mean, they can always do that and they vote with their feet. But what should be a good way?

Because look, three of us, four of us here are pastors, right? At least three of us have been preaching pastors.

We know what it's like when people disagree with us, right? How do they usually do? They either just leave and that's when you realize they had an issue, right?

They don't tell you why. They never talk to you about it. But usually when they do talk to you, I mean, and I'll just say this from a pastor's perspective, people just, they've been thinking about something for a while and they unload on the pastor as if you should have known all these things all along that I haven't been sharing with you.

I haven't talked to you about it, but you should have just known this, right? And they unload on their pastor.

And folks, you may not realize pastors get defensive when all of a sudden it's like, hey, we want to have a meeting.

Because if you've been through this so many times, you realize, okay, it's someone that is unloading on you. And they usually don't want to say like, okay, let's give you time to process it or think about it or things like that.

So, I mean, we want to avoid that. How would be a tactful way of bringing this up to your pastors?

So in the Southern Baptist Convention, you have local churches, local associations, state conventions, and then the national convention.

And the leadership levels just simply go up from there and there and there. And so if you were to try and invoke change, you would have to work your way through the ranks.

And so generally you start with pastors in the local community and you get to the association.

The association would have a director of missions. The director of missions, unfortunately, most of them are just simply taking the lukewarm legacy and path of trying to keep everybody appeased.

And so you're not going to get anywhere there. You keep going beyond the local association to the state convention.

And the state conventions are generally the same way, if not more moderate.

And I have done these measures. And so now you go beyond the state conventions and you go to the megachurch pastors and talk with them because they have beyond parliamentary procedure, they have influence.

And so sitting with Steve Gaines, talking with him at Bellevue, sitting with the guys who have the influence.

I sat with David Youth at First Baptist of Orlando and said, if you simply said to everybody,

I'm just going to preach the word and let the word do the work. I'm not going to do pragmatic ministries.

I'm not going to affirm homosexuality. I'm not going to baptize homosexuals. I'm going to be a

Bible -believing church. And I'm going to rebuke all of these things and stand up for righteousness.

I told him, I said, we need a leader of a megachurch to stand up in the

Southern Baptist Convention and lead the way forward in righteousness. And he had nothing to do with it.

And so you get all of these denials, denials, denials right down the line. And even when I speak to those who have the ability and have the influence, they give you a long, and they're very kind, they're very nice, but a long drawn out neutral stance.

And I'm done with it. And so not having, I had a lot of hope for Tom Ascol and Votie Bauckham getting into office.

These guys were going to preach the truth and they were going to shuck the corn and they were going to say what was right and what was wrong.

And unfortunately, even still, the presidency of the

Southern Baptist Convention is very similar to the presidency of the United States. You're very limited as to what you can get accomplished in two years.

And obviously the country's four years, but we have, you know, generally a term of two years.

Well, I don't know about that. This current president has done a lot of damage in one year.

He did not take him long to do a lot of destruction. And unfortunately,

SBC is very political as well. Yeah, I guess destruction is easier to accomplish quickly.

Yeah, no, I think Pastor Casey makes a great point. This is such a big machine that the local congregant who has a problem, like where is my money going?

Is it going to some CRT? They can't do nothing about it. And I think what

Pastor Casey is being so profound, it don't matter. I've spoken to entity heads, obviously not in the same maybe direction as Pastor Casey, but you get the same, you know,

I mean, I used to be a con man in my day. You know what I'm saying, Andrew? I know a con when

I can see one. I mean, no, I'm serious. But that person in the church,

Dr. Anthony, I mean, that person in the church has nowhere to go. That's sad.

It's a machine. And they'll coddle you and tell you, oh, we care for you.

And I hear things like, well, even though it's happening out there, it's not happening in your church.

But a little love right past the Casey, I mean, it's just not worth

Andrew staying in, man. And to your point on your question is what can a local messenger do besides going and being a messenger at the

Southern Maps Convention and speaking at a microphone and saying something that's just going to be ignored anyway?

Think of it this way. The Conservative Baptist Network rounded up 10 ,000, right?

And I was speaking to a longtime Southern Baptist pastor, and he would prefer to be unnamed.

But here's what he said. Casey, the Southern Baptist machine would chew up and spit out 10 ,000 churches and not even think about it and continue down their path.

10 ,000 churches doesn't mean anything to the Southern Baptist Convention. The hierarchy, the elites know what they want to do.

They're in their offices. You're not going to get them out. They have control.

And so one church, 10 ,000 churches, it doesn't matter. They've got a death grip on the finances.

They've got a death grip on the parliamentary procedures. That is the facts.

And so what are you going to do? Besides examine every single entity, whether it's the

ERLC, whether it's IMB, whether it's NAM, whatever you want to look at, there are entrenched issues that go back decades.

I have firsthand testimonies from those who have worked at NAM for over 30 years, and they've said that these things have just continuously gotten worse and worse and worse and worse.

And so nevertheless, the trend is that way. How in the world can we undo 30 years worth of drift when

Kevin Eazell is going nowhere? My last hope at NAM was Johnny Hunt. And when

I found out what he did, that was devastating to think that he would use his influence in his position to be able to coerce a woman.

And so his abuse, there is abuse, and he didn't own up to it. When he was interviewed by Guidepost, he did not admit to it.

But yet Guidepost had already interviewed the victim and the victim's spouse, and they had the facts.

And so when they revealed a little bit more, he confessed a little bit more. And when they revealed a little bit more, he confessed a little bit more still, rather than coming to light and confessing and repenting and asking for forgiveness.

But yet the SBC elites covered it up for, what, 20 years? I'm not sure, but a long time.

And so that is the case. The elites have the control. They're going to control the narrative.

Baptist press has gone left, and the word conservative has been hijacked.

It's now a moderate position within the conservatives, within the

Southern Baptist Convention. Yeah, let me just, so this is what we're really trying to address, and this is from someone,

Sabotage Cabbage, which says, I wish my church leaders would acknowledge these issues.

My pastor is encouraged by this year's convention. I feel like the crazy lady that always has something negative to say.

Chris Honhold said this, he said, when you think about how much needs to change the total revolution of the

SBC entity, the schools, NAM, IMB, et cetera, you have to wonder if the

SBC can ever be saved. And that's really what it comes down to. So let me just real quick, we got some people backstage, and we do have 15 minutes.

I do want to say that it's lovely lights behind Anthony back there. I like them. This is great.

Yeah. I'm going to come out here every week for Apologetics Live. Yeah. Especially if you take me out to sushi. Yeah, well, let me get that fire.

I got a fireless fire pit. And a fire. Yeah, you should have had the fire on for me. I should have had that on going for you. But so let's bring in another pastor who also, like Pastor Dom, has an accent, but a little harder to understand.

Welcome, Kofi. How are you, sir? Yeah, I'm doing well, brother.

I'm doing well. Brother's good to be on with you. I'll keep my comments brief because I know other folks want to come on.

And you might hear my son in the background. He's having a good time. Two thoughts.

First of all, as Andrew likes to joke, I have an accent, which apparently is hard to understand. I'm from the

UK. Do you need us to translate what you say into English? No, I'm good.

Thank you, though. Be that as it may. Coming from the

UK, we have a very unique thing in the UK that the US doesn't have. And that's a state church.

We have the Church of England that's existed since the 1500s with Henry VIII and all of that business.

One of the things about the Church of England is it's a big tent. In some ways, people would say a bigger tent than the

SBC. I mean, you have all sorts in the Anglican Church. And I have friends, dear friends, who are still in the

Anglican Church to this day who recognize the problems, who recognize that,

OK, we've got bishops who hate us. We've got people in the upper echelons of the

Anglican Communion who hate us. And they try and do very similar things to what we've seen in the

Southern Baptist Convention, if we're really honest. I watched this year's convention.

I watched all of it. I had it up on my TV. You would have thought like I was watching the World Cup. I just watched this thing from start to finish.

And I watched it. And I texted one of my friends in the UK at one point and I said, it's like watching the

Anglicans talk. Because they'll sit there and tell you that everything is great. Everything is fine.

You know what? You're still there. Oh, OK. Everything is fine.

We got a picture of your ceiling there. Are you there,

Kofi? I guess your son got to the laptop. All right, well, we'll leave him in until he gets back.

I'm sure he'll recover. By the way, I will say this, having been out there with Pastor Kofi, his little boy is so well -behaved, you know.

It's one of the things that you go and you get to be with other pastors and you see them with their kids.

His kid is wonderful. His kid just sits, can entertain himself. Doesn't, you know, doesn't sit there and like when adults are talking, sit there and like get in the way.

You know, he just plays by himself. And when mom or dad say something, he just dutifully obeys.

But let me, he dropped out. Let me bring Kyle in real quick. Kyle, you're backstage. You have any questions, comments?

If there's any snorks, those are for Anthony. So are you there,

Kyle? Cole. Cole, I'm sorry. So Cole, you have anything that you had for us tonight?

You're muted. Thank you. So I had a question

I asked backstage. One of the things I've been running into lately is there's a lot of classical liberals that are out there that have become good cultural allies and are pointing out a lot of the religious stuff, including guys like Sam Harris or James Lindsay.

Have you run into anybody's, anybody outside the church that's actually doing good reporting on what this is doing to us?

Because it seems to me like there's some of that, that there's some evangelistic opportunities that might come about from this.

Because a lot of people, a lot of eyes are on the SBC and whatnot, unlike how some of the other churches like the

Lutherans have gone split. But the SBC is kind of pulling eyes towards this.

Is there any positive spin you can put on that? They love it. Well, Anthony, I think you and James Lindsay had a conversation.

So I'll let you answer that one. Look, I don't think we need to go to a non -Christian to inform

Christians on how to deal with social justice. And what was interesting is when he was being promoted by Sovereign Nations at a

G3 conference several years ago, most people did not know he was an atheist, including myself.

I just saw him in roundtable discussions. I maybe didn't listen close enough to understand he was an atheist.

Just listen to him talk. And so I, because I had studied social justice, Andrew and I were at the forefront of social justice.

We were teaching around the country on this subject before really anybody else was doing it, other than Votie Bauckham, who was doing it for many years up until that point.

And so I went up to James Lindsay and just started to have a conversation. And within two or three minutes, he recognized he wasn't saved.

And so I started witnessing to him, to which I came under fire by Michael Fallon, who was not happy that I was witnessing to his star whatever in his ministry.

Oh, it was, it was unbelievable. I had a few kind words for Michael Fallon, who, you know, all he could do is tell me, well, you know, you don't know who you're talking to.

I've moderated every one of James White's debates since 1988. I'm like, so? I go, and I turn to James and said, are you offended by this conversation?

He goes, no. I go, there you go, Michael. And so he walks off mad. I continue to witness to him.

And eventually Michael comes over a couple minutes later and says, hey, we've got a meeting right now and let's go. And so they start walking off and, and you could see them laughing together as they're walking away.

It was, Michael Fallon completely lied to get out of that. So having said all that,

James Lindsay, nice guy, knows his stuff, but there's plenty of Christians who could do the same thing.

Yeah. And that's the thing. We don't need the world to defend the scriptures.

Amen. It's sad that people that want or think that somehow we, we need the influence of these unsaved people to give, to give the

Bible credibility. I got news for you. The Bible's credible because its author is the creator of the universe.

It doesn't need you. It doesn't need me. And it certainly doesn't need some unbeliever.

And his word pierces like a two edged sword, you know? So we have everything we need in God's word.

This was really, to me, no different than, than the, than the issue with conservatives today. I mean, a lot of us would have conservative or libertarian values.

But the reason why we have them is because we base it off of scripture, off of God himself, his word, his morality.

And that's where we come from. Our conservative values from conservatives who can't pin it on God or don't pin it on God have no foundation for their beliefs.

And I feel like that's the same issue with the atheists who are against social justice.

They have a completely different worldview. It's untenable. And, and yet we're using them in ministry.

It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So Kofi, you're back. Let me, let me ask you to unmute your mic and then you can finish telling us about the

Anglican church and how wonderful it is. And again, like I said,

I was saying before I got cut off, like I have friends in the Anglican church. These are Bible believing men. If we put them in a room with a bunch of us right now, theologically, and in some cases, even socially and politically, they would be on the same end as us, but they're in an organization that doesn't love them.

They've got bishops who don't like them. They have, you know, general, like general synods and what have you that meet that don't love them.

They have to set up organizations outside of their entities. And my thing as an independent evangelical back home was always, why don't you guys just leave and you'd get the usual, well, we can do more if we're part of the

Anglican establishment than if we're not. And, you know, it allows us to be able to reach more people because there are some people, the only church they'll attend is an

Anglican one and all the rest of it. And I see a frightening parallel as I watched.

And like I was saying before I got, I got cut off. I watched the SBC annual meeting.

I watched it from start to finish. And as I watched this thing, I texted a friend of mine in the

UK. He was also watching it. And I was like, this is just like when the church of England gets together and they will say all the right things.

In some cases, they'll say some really horrendous things. The conservative guys get really upset.

And I'm like, why are we here? And the folks who have an agenda are nice and happy because they're placated so they can go do their agenda.

And I see the same thing in the SBC. And I think I said this on another Politics 6 Live a while ago, and I got in some trouble for saying it.

At this point, I don't really see much of a difference between the SBC and the church of England. It basically functions the same.

They're essentially political organizations. They ignore the concerns of their grassroots. They basically will do anything to be accepted by the world.

And I think if it hadn't already happened, I think this last SBC annual meeting simply highlights the reality that for lots of pastors and good people in the

SBC, it might just be time to move on. I salute people like the pastors who are here who have said, you know what?

We need to talk to our congregations, honor our polity, and address this in the right way. But we've had enough, and we can't do this anymore.

Because I think at some point, it becomes a drain on your time, a drain on your energy.

Listen, we are not here to preserve institutions and to keep organizations alive. The church exists for the proclamation of the gospel and the edification of saints.

I don't need an SBC to do that. Nobody needs a denomination to do that. Denominations may be a helpful means to an end, but when they forget their mission and they start basically functioning as though they exist to keep themselves alive, at some point, you need to speak truth to power a little bit and say, you know what?

You've forgotten why you exist. I haven't forgotten why I exist. So let me separate myself from you.

You continue doing what you need to do, and I'm going to keep doing what the Lord called me to do. Amen. Amen.

Well, I do appreciate you guys coming in. I just want to tell my wife, can you lock the door outside so Anthony can't get back in?

That's the way we're going to end Anthony time. Oh, wait. It's warm out here. This is great. Yeah, well,

I'm probably going to join you soon and get a fire going. But no, I appreciate you guys coming on.

The SPC, I know that I was asked this earlier, and Kofi, I hope you've been seeing all the comments here, but I was asked a question, why are we dealing with the

SPC again? And the reason that we're bringing this up again is because the

SPC is the largest conservative denomination. And so what we see here and what's going on is the ending of that conservatism within the denomination.

And what I think you're going to see is you're going to start to see the collapse of that denomination.

And as it collapses, you're going to see liberalism being more the norm within Christianity because they're going to be looking and saying, well, look, now even the

Baptists are going the way of everybody else. So I know we're going to get ready to close, but I see that Pastor Justin added himself in, so he probably has lots to say.

You have three minutes. I've been quiet the whole time, so I sat in the background listening.

One minute, and okay, he was done. All right, so we'll mute him. So I was just going to say, amen.

Seriously, what I wrote here on the side is that we have to remember as Baptists, we're not the

Roman Catholic Church. We're not the Methodists, Lutherans, the Presbyterians, or anyone else. Kofi, what you just said is right on the money.

We don't need a denomination that has already turned the ship. You know,

Casey, like you said, it's not just turned the ship to the left or right. It's turned the ship to sink.

We don't have to have that. You know, I mean, if you look in the scripture, you see local church, local church, local church working together.

You don't see some big, giant denominational, you know, monolith telling everybody what you must do and how we must live the

Christian life and then what we must accept and sit down and shut up if we don't like you. You know,

I listened and watched Ed Litton open the floor up for Rick Warren to lie, to obfuscate, to talk about, you know, these issues are secondary and tertiary issues and whatnot, who the body of Christ is and who the teachers are.

It is a firsthand issue. You don't have a church if you don't have pastors, and you don't have pastors unless they're biblically defined.

And that's the truth of it. So that's what I had to say. I love what you guys did tonight.

All right. Well, glad that you came in. I know you were watching there for a while, but so that's what we have for you tonight.

I hope that, I mean, I'd pray that the SPC would turn around. But yeah, I guess, I think that's, yeah, and we do have a squirrel in the house.

Gene Clyde from Squirrel Chatter podcast at the Christian Podcast Community says if you, if your church won't leave the

SPC, it's probably time to leave that church. And we're going to leave that as the final comment for tonight.

And so hope that you guys were edified, encouraged, I hope, educated.