Complementarianism and the SBC with AD Robles

Conversations That Matter

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00:01

Welcome to another edition of the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris, and I'm joined today by A .D.

00:09

Robles, A .D., and A .D., are you concerned at all about coming on a podcast with a white guy as the host?

00:18

I don't know if you're triggered by that. I thought you were brave, frankly. Thank you. Not only am I triggered, but I'm traumatized, and I really need you to start practicing de -centering your own whiteness.

00:30

Here's a statue I have, and I put this here. It's a white man, and I just thought I would do that to maybe ease the suffering.

00:37

You're welcome. We'll just leave him there for the rest. He's a crusader, actually, so, I mean, hey, that's the best statue

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I could find. I'll give you an hour for that, so you can keep it for an hour.

00:48

Yeah, I'll find something else to destroy in the meantime. So, hey, there's a debate going on, and it's going to bleed into the

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Southern Baptist Convention next week. In fact, there's a debate, I think, between Tom Askle and Dwight McKissick on complementarianism at the convention.

01:08

I just want to kind of walk through for laymen who are watching this, maybe they don't quite understand what the big deal is, especially those who might be attending the convention.

01:18

How should we as Christians think about this? Those who aren't seminary professors, but just laymen, pastors in rural churches and so forth.

01:28

How do we go about navigating this issue, because it's going to be the buzz, and our opinions are going to be asked about it, because it is an issue.

01:36

I wanted to start off by showing, this is a tweet that Beth Moore released on April 27th, and I'm sure you remember this,

01:47

AD. She talks about preaching on Mother's Day, and then

01:52

Dwight McKissick, who's a pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention, says that doing so is actually practicing biblical fidelity.

02:01

His reason is because gifts are not given according to gender, but the Holy Spirit gave those women proclamation gifts, and He opened the door for them to exercise them.

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It's fine for a woman to preach on Mother's Day, and he's having a woman preach at his church. When you saw this, did you have a problem with it at first?

02:22

With Dwight or Beth? The answer is yes. Yeah, the whole situation. Did it shock you, though?

02:28

Were you surprised that this is happening, or maybe you weren't? No, I'm not surprised that this is happening.

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This is the zeitgeist. This is the spirit of the world. At the end of the day, the push in the world is to try to eliminate these distinctions between male and female that are so obvious to most people.

02:53

No, I'm not surprised by this. I'm surprised maybe that Beth was so bold about it, but good for her.

03:02

If this is what she believes, I'm glad that she speaks plainly. Yeah, I'm glad she came out there with it. The lack of clarity, the muddying of the waters is frustrating.

03:11

It ends up, this whole thing develops to where Owen Strand at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, he puts out some articles on this whole issue of women preaching and the relationship between that and eldership and the function versus the role.

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Then Beth Moore says, Owen, and this is drama, but I'm going to say this with respect.

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As much as I can, I have self -restraint. I'd be terrified to be a woman you'd approve of.

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This just increases the drama. Then Beth Moore says, all these years,

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I'd given the benefit of the doubt that these men, and so this is Owen, this is I'm assuming Tom Buck, Tom Askell, they were the way they were because they were trying to be obedient to scripture, and she says, that's not what it is.

03:57

It's misogyny. It's sexism. It's about protecting systems involved in covering abuses and misuses of power.

04:06

I sense the social justice language, the critical theory stuff all over there. It's all over.

04:11

Yeah. It's all the buzzwords. You know, Beth Moore is extremely intelligent, and one of the things she knows best is how to market herself, and so she is laser focused on winning a certain audience, and she's very successful at it.

04:29

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I mean, people were very defensive. I remember, and I didn't put this in this little slideshow, but I had weighed in on one of her threads, and I was attacked immediately and called all sorts of names, and it wasn't like scriptural arguments were being used against me.

04:44

It was just, you're a hater, basically. Yeah. I mean, and I don't have any problem saying how,

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I mean, I am impressed with how competent she is at what she does. I'm not saying that it's correct, but she's an extremely competent woman, extremely intelligent.

05:00

There's no question about that. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not telling the truth. She knows what she's doing.

05:07

Yeah, exactly. I agree with you there. So here's where we're at kind of now. This is May 31st.

05:13

Beth Moore puts out a tweet, and she references a gentleman who is egalitarian, and she's kind of forwarding this idea that there's this big tent, this big complementarianism tent, and she's part of it.

05:27

And then Alan Moeller comes out and says, we have reached a critical moment in the Southern Baptist Convention when there are now open calls to retreat from biblical convictions and complementarianism embrace the very error that the

05:37

SBC repudiated over 30 years ago. Honestly, I never thought I would see this day. Then Beth Moore tries to kind of backtrack.

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She deletes her tweet by a man, a person named Honeycutt, and she puts out this explanation.

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I don't know if you read that, but it wasn't, I don't think, much of an explanation. And so, you know,

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Alan Moeller was then praised by people on the complementarian side. And so this argument is still going on.

06:05

And I wanted to use this quote to launch our discussion here. It's from Tom Schreiner. He says, a discussion and debate is going on today among complementarians, and we should always welcome further clarification.

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A fundamental question we all need to ask ourselves is whether we love the complementarian vision in scripture, or are we slightly embarrassed by it?

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And so he kind of gets to the heart of like, there's a motivating thing behind all this.

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This isn't just maybe a disagreement over scripture. There's a willingness to want to kind of kowtow to the world and get approval from them.

06:39

And I think he might be tapping into something there. What do you think about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

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I don't know a lot about Tom Schreiner's positions on this, but I think the quote is very astute. There's a really funny scene in a movie about a series of debates that Doug Wilson did with Christopher Hitchens.

06:58

I think the movie is called Collision, but anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really, it's a really interesting movie.

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But anyway, at one point in that movie, Christopher Hitchens is talking about, you know, the slaughter of the

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Amalekites or something like that. And he says, well, you're, he says to Doug Wilson, he says, you're, you're, you're forced.

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If you, if you have this view of God that you have to say that that was a, that was a good slaughter. Right. And, and, and, and Doug Wilson says, oh yeah, absolutely.

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That was a good thing. And Christopher Hitchens goes, oh, I got you to say it. And Doug's like, you didn't get me to,

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I'm happy to say it. You know what I mean? Like, like this is the thing, like one of the things you say what you want about Doug Wilson, he's not embarrassed about what the scripture says.

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He doesn't, he doesn't care what you think he should be embarrassed of. He's willing to go with it. You know what I mean?

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And, and I think that when it comes to the complimentarian issue that yeah, there is sort of a, you know,

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I know husbands are the head of the home, but it kind of like apologetic about it.

07:57

And there's no reason to do that. And in fact, I think you should, you definitely should not be apologetic about this position.

08:03

Yeah. You know, it's interesting that clip you brought up. I remember that. And, and Doug Wilson says afterward, he goes, he says something like, well, it's not as good as what

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I'm about to get you to say. And then Christopher Hitchens is like, what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah, well, you also think that it's good to kill the

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Amalekites. And he shows how there's no moral standard. So of course, Christopher Hitchens has to be okay with it as well.

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So I think something similar might be happening here. It's kind of like these, if you want to call them soft complimentarian or egalitarian, this kind of shying away from what the scripture actually teaches, they want to get people that are more conservative.

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And you and I would be in this to say these things that are politically incorrect, but then we can say, well, it's not as good as what we're about to get you to say.

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And because, because if you want to be consistent, you're going to have to throw the Bible under the bus. And that's not going to go well for you either.

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If you want to have any position in a Christian, well, at least at this point in a Christian institution. So I was hoping we could define our terms a little bit.

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I want to get your thoughts on this. I put out a, this is just kind of in layman's terms.

09:06

I didn't go. I mean, I've read academic books on this, but I just wanted to kind of cut to the heart of this debate that's currently going on.

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And so here's, here's what I came up with and, and different people would say it differently, but egalitarianism is the idea that the

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Bible does not limit women from teaching men's scripture in the public gathering and being elders. And so I said, the attitude is scripture is disregarded really,

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I think. So that's egalitarianism, just, there's really no difference. Women can preach, men can preach, women can be elders, men can be elders.

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And then soft complementarianism, which I think is what we're dealing with in this debate with Beth Moore.

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The Bible does not limit women from teaching men's scripture in the public gatherings occasionally, but it does limit women from being elders.

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So they find the scripture kind of embarrassing. That's the attitude that I see. And then of course, what we would both agree on a complementarianism, the

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Bible limits women from teaching men's scripture in the public gathering and from assuming authority. So church eldership over a man.

10:06

And this is, I think the biblical position. Are you cool with those definitions? I know they're simple.

10:12

Yeah, they're, they're, they're probably over simplistic, but for the purposes of our discussion, I think it's, it's fine.

10:18

Yeah. Yeah. So moving forward, if that's kind of the framework, basic framework,

10:23

I should say we're working off of, I want to just look at some scriptures and I have my Bible here.

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Genesis 2, 18, right? It says, then the Lord God said, it is not good for the man to be alone.

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I will make him a helper suitable for him. And of course, in context,

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God has just made man and he's given man a job to keep and cultivate the earth. And, and then, and here's woman.

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And this is, you know, from creation. It's so fundamental to,

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I think our understanding of complementarianism, this is really about God's design. And so I know a lot of hay is made over that word helper.

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And you know, I had someone, I'd be curious to hear your response to this AD. I had someone tell me, this is in one of Beth Moore's threads that, well, a helper is the same.

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It's the same Hebrew word that God uses to describe himself sometimes. So there, there's nothing, there's no hierarchy going on here.

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What would you say to someone who says that? Um, so, I mean, even just the premise itself that, that using the word helper means there's no hierarchy is, is preposterous because there's obviously our hierarchy with us in God and God's at the top of that.

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So, I mean, unless this person was, was literally arguing that, that, that the woman is at the top of the hierarchy, you know what

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I mean? That I don't really see. It seems like a non -sequitur to me. Yeah. It's like going to another verse and just, you know, cherry picking, oh, here's, here's where the word is used.

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God helps us. And I was like, well, yeah, but in the context, there's a job that Adam has and a job

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Eve has, and this is the job that God gave Eve to help Adam in his job. And it's very clear that there, so the word helper, there's a distinction there and, and, and, you know,

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I don't think anyone denies there's a distinction between us and God. So I don't really,

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I don't really, I don't really even get what the, what the point is. Yeah, it's just an argument I heard, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

12:25

I want you to add in some verses here as well, after we read these two, you know, verses that come to mind for you, but first Corinthians 11, and of course we're jumping in kind of mid sentence here, but it says for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake, therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels.

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And, and as I'm, I'm reading this, I'm actually flipping there in my assault

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Bible right now. And you know, the context of this passage is headship, right?

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And so the reason that God says that there's a headship of men in a sense over in the sense of you know, they're not that they can lord it over a woman, but that they are responsible and they have, like we just saw in Genesis, a job that women are to help with is because of creation and the angels.

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That's what it says in the text itself. And so I don't see anything cultural here, which is the other argument

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I've heard. What do you think about that when you hear someone say, well, that's just what Paul's saying to the culture at that time?

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Yeah. I mean, that is, that is the common thing. But you know, the reality is that, that Paul, Paul, Paul, I think even a lot of secular people admit that Paul was a genius and he, he, when he writes, he writes in such a way that, that he kind of, he, he kind of kind of assumes the argument against him.

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And so the kinds of things that he'll say when he's, this is first Timothy, for example, he's talking about a similar idea.

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And this is the verse where he says that a woman is to learn quietly with full submission.

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I do not allow a woman to teach or has authority over a man. Instead, she is to remain quiet. And so you can just hear the debater say, well, that's cultural.

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That was, that's old fashioned. And Paul goes, because Adam was formed first and then

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Eve, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, but she'll be saved through childbearing.

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They continue in faith, love, and holiness with good sense. Paul doesn't allow that as an option because he's connecting this to the creation order, what happened in creation.

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And so I don't think we can look at the creation story and say, well, I guess this just, this is just a culturally applied, no, this is, this is reality.

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God created everything. This is the universe. This is our world. God created it a certain way and Paul's applying that way that he created it in a certain way as well.

15:00

And so that argument doesn't really get off the ground for me. And let me just take this opportunity to say that, that this, this issue is so crystal clear.

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I mean, there's, there are some things in Paul that are hard to understand. That's a biblical position. In fact, I think that's a quotation from the scripture.

15:15

Uh, Paul, there are some things in Paul's writing that are difficult to understand. This is not one of them, right? This is, this is easy to repeat it over and over.

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And I mean, we're just scratching the tip of the iceberg here. And so I don't, I mean,

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I'll, I'll respond to an argument like, Hey, that was just cultural, but it's just so obviously not, he, he ties it to the creation order.

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Most everyone, you know, in reformed him used to understand and not acknowledge that. But you know, here we are,

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I mean, you could, you could take anything and just say, well, that's just cultural. I mean, if you're going to do that, like anything becomes cultural, right?

15:50

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's one of these arguments that you just throw out there. It's I, I used to do this myself when

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I would, when I was debating with that, when I was a new Christian, this is how I was taught to, to argue, um, uh, debate, uh, an atheist or a secularist or, you know, whatever.

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And they bring up something in the old Testament. My default argument was, Oh yeah, that's the old Testament. Yeah. Yeah.

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We don't follow that anymore. And that's just one of these throwaway arguments that just shuts it down, but it doesn't really mean anything.

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You know, in first Corinthians 11, um, there is a cultural element. I mean, I believe in a grammatical historical approach to scripture and to each other and to the constitution and to every written document, right?

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Like common sense applies and we need to look at the original audience, authorial intent, and what were they trying to communicate?

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And in first Corinthians 11, I mean, the cultural element seems to be, yeah, there were tumble prostitutes in Corinth. They shaved their heads.

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It was a shame. Women should have a head covering there. There's, there's a cultural element perhaps here, but Paul doesn't use like a concept of a headship may have looked different, maybe in different cultures.

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I've heard this argument, but he doesn't root that concept in culture. It's rooted in creation and the angels.

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Uh, he says, um, you know, in verse eight, man did not originate from woman, but woman from man.

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Uh, I mean it, it, it's, he's going back to Genesis and so, yeah, um,

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I'm, I'm in complete agreement with you on that. I don't understand what, when people do that, cause I think they're just putting acid on the

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Bible. Everything's destroyed at that point. And let's, let's also take this opportunity to say this as well, that, that first Corinthians 11, um, let's just be honest.

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It's mystified many people. And I remember when I first read it, I just didn't even understand what was going on.

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He's talking about the, you know, head coverings and all is because of the angels, like I don't really get it. Um, but again, like this might be a theme of the rest of our conversation, but I don't feel the need to have to understand it completely to know the clear verses about women exercising authority in the church.

17:50

There's, it's just so much clarity to that, but this complicated verse, which let's just be honest, it's a little bit more complicated.

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This first Corinthians 11, it is, I mean, I'm not saying I don't think I understand it. I think I might, but, but yeah, let's not confuse the issue with the confusing stuff.

18:07

Let's look at the clear stuff, you know? Yeah, no, I totally agree. I'm a simple guy. Hey, so, um,

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I was going to do this later, but I think now would just be a good time with we are conversations going. I just, I feel like we should say this.

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I think it's obvious to probably the people listening to mostly our base that listens to us, that they know that we're not advocating that women and men are somehow like men are worth more or something, but, but we need to say it.

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I think like, this doesn't mean that women and men are like any less made in the image of God because they're one gender or the other.

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Like, like we're saying that there's a hierarchy that God has established and it's, this is where the word complimentarian comes in.

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There's different roles and functions. So it's not a worth thing. I just thought I should mention that.

18:52

Absolutely. Absolutely. And if, and if you have any, if you have any doubt about that, all you have to do is look at the

18:59

Trinity because we, you know, we, we see Christ submitting to the will of the father. And I don't think anyone would say

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Christ was less valuable than the father because that's what he does. That's what he did. Absolutely. Nobody would say that.

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So, you know, I mean, look, we're not good. Good clarification. It's, it's, it's worth saying.

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Yeah. Yeah. Just in case. So first Corinthians 14 is another verse. I'm just gonna throw this out there. 34, the women are to keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves just as the law also says.

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And the context of first Corinthians 14 is the gift of prophecy. And and so that's where Paul speaks.

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And he's talking about churches here, it looks like. So the, the, the main verse though, that keeps getting, this is first Timothy.

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You actually were just quoting this. Yes. The main verse in that's at controversial right now is verses 12 and 13 of first Timothy two.

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And, and you quoted this, you know, Paul says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet where it was

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Adam and he, again, he roots it in creation. Sure. Um, this is where there's a dividing line.

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And I want to ask you what, why you think there is this dividing line and is it just cultural embarrassment or like, so here's like the two schools of thought.

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One of them is, well, Paul is saying that women just can't be elders. That's the exercise authority.

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Doesn't mean that they can't necessarily preach sometimes it's, it's just the office of elders, but it seems to me it's obvious that there's a function going on.

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It's, it's speaking, um, that he's talking about. So yeah. Uh, you know, what's, where's the, why, why do some people approach it differently than we would?

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Are they just not taking the creation order into account or what is it? Well, I could,

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I could give you the easy answer, but the easy answer is, is, is the effects of sin.

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I mean, sin, even in Genesis, when, when, um, when, when, when men fall, when

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Adam eats the, uh, eats the fruit, um, God even says, you know, you, your, your desire is going to be for him, but he'll rule over you.

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It talks about this struggle. So, so, so that's what the easy answer is. But this verse is, is, is, is so again,

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I mean, I just have to, I don't, I don't want to, you know, belittle people that have the other opinion, but this is just so crystal clear.

21:23

You know, it's, it's not just talking about the office. It's talking about, uh, teaching. I mean, it's just very, very clear.

21:29

It's talking about the office and the function of that office. People want to, people want to pull that apart. And I don't understand how you, you wrap your mind around pulling the office and the function of the office apart, but, but it doesn't even matter because, because if, if, if anyone out there knows a way to preach without authority,

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I mean, I would, my mind would be blown. You, you can't preach in an unauthoritative way unless you're preaching something other than the

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Bible, in which case it's irrelevant and don't do it. I mean, I, I, there's no way to preach the

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Bible in an, in an unauthoritative way. You know what I mean? Like when you are on that, at that pulpit, the people receive it as the word of God because you're preaching the word of God.

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If you're preaching on something else, it's completely, I mean, that you shouldn't be doing that for all kinds of other reasons besides the fact that you're a woman.

22:24

So I wanted to ask you this, I think that was an excellent answer. What about someone who would give you pushback and say,

22:30

A .D., if women aren't supposed to have authority over men, how do you explain Deborah in Judges or Miriam Song in Exodus 15 or Priscilla tutoring

22:40

Apollos in Acts 18 women who prophesied publicly in the New Testament Acts 2 and 17 and 15 and 11.

22:49

Yeah. Like where do we put those things? Yeah. I mean, and, and, and, I mean, not, not only that, but we, we've got, you know, women that, you know,

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I think about Esther, for example, she had tremendous influence on, on the people. I think of there have been women that have done assassinations on behalf of the

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Lord. Like there have been women involved in all kinds of things like that. And I think, so there's, there's two, there's two things

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I'll say about this. Number one is I'm going to go back to my old principle. That's all very interesting.

23:19

And it's worth talking about Deborah. It's worth talking about Priscilla. It's worth talking about Esther. I think it's interesting to talk about, and we can talk about the circumstances that led to those situations.

23:29

And there's lots of different ways you can interpret that. However, it still has actually nothing to do with the clarity of these verses.

23:38

The clarity of these verses is, is so clear that all that other stuff, it's, it's nice, but it really doesn't matter to me because I can understand first Timothy, you know what

23:49

I mean? I can understand Paul's letters very well because he was a genius and he wrote in a very clear way about so many things.

23:56

So that's my first response. My second response though, is that I think, especially as complementarians, we need to be careful to say that there could be circumstances where a woman would be in a leadership position and that would involve leading men in certain circumstances.

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There could be circumstances like that. We can acknowledge that. And I think the Bible gives us plenty of examples like that.

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However, the Bible also talks about how the reality is, if that becomes commonplace, if that's like the rule instead of the exception, that that's actually, that's a, that's rebellion.

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That's, that's an example of God's judgment on your nation, right? The Bible, look, we're not going to be ashamed of the

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Bible that talks about, you know, things like your, your, your soldiers are going to be women. Why would it say that?

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Why would it say, well, your soldiers shouldn't be women. That's why. And just because there's a woman in the old

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Testament that did an assassination and it was a good thing, it was a godly thing. Doesn't overturn the fact that if your soldiers are like women, that's actually a judgment.

25:03

It was a shame to Barack that Deborah was even doing what she was doing. So, and so we can talk all about that if you want.

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And there's a few different ways to interpret it. Oh, it's a judgment against, against the people, or it was just a certain circumstance that it made sense.

25:18

I'm okay with all that. And if you look at, there's a list of things women do, and you look at Proverbs 31, this is not like the, the, um, you know, the barefoot woman who's only good for, you know, making meals and, and, and, and, and, and giving birth to babies.

25:33

It's not like that. The Proverbs 31 woman isn't like that. She's got all kinds of responsibilities. In fact, uh, under her husband's authority, she's basically running the house is what she's doing.

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She's buying a field. She's considering real estate. She's, you know, she's, she's, she's, she's bringing home goods from the marketplace, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a ship coming from far away lands.

25:53

Like, like she's an awesome woman, but none of that stuff negates the clarity of first Timothy.

26:01

It's just, it just doesn't. So, so my, my inclination is to just say, look, we can talk all about that, but it really actually has nothing to do with the issue.

26:08

It's really a side issue. Yeah. I wanted to float this idea with you. Um, I, I was thinking about this this morning because I knew we were going to be talking about it.

26:16

The, the idea of polygamy, um, I don't want to get into polygamy like in detail at all, but like, but a lot of the patriarchs were polygamous, right?

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And of course there's all sorts of things they did that we look at now and we think are horrible things, you know, we might call them sins, but you know, um,

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God doesn't specifically ever call polygamy a sin. In fact, when David's, uh, with Bathsheba, he said,

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I would have given you more horses and wives, plural, if you wouldn't have done this. So there there's, God does not endorse polygamy.

26:46

I don't see an endorsement anywhere. Um, but there is a deviation from the created order.

26:51

And of course in the new Testament, leaders in the church can't be husbands of multiple women. You have to be a husband of one wife. And so, so I was thinking about this and I was thinking that's also rooted in creation, the one man and one woman.

27:02

That's right. Um, the question I think that is not being asked, uh, in this debate as much as it should be is what ought to be the case?

27:09

What should a woman's role be? Not what can a woman do? What can't a woman do?

27:15

But what should a woman do? Like what's the ideal that God has set up rather than trying to like find this nuance where we can then, you know, stuff, some, some egalitarianism and, and get a woman to do something that normally men are supposed to do because it's permissible.

27:31

Like, it's just the wrong way of thinking about it in my mind. Like you could justify polygamy that way and say, well, where does it say that you can't like, it's like, you know, you know what

27:40

I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. Yeah. And, and, and I think, I think, I think you're onto something there for sure.

27:46

I think, you know, we can, we can be sure of a few things and, and, and, and one of those things is that, that, that a wife should be oriented, it's like an orientation towards the home.

27:57

Now, how does that work itself out? Well, so, so someone might ask a question like should, should a girl who should my daughter who, uh, you know,

28:05

I'm, I'm hoping to train to be a godly woman, someone who's oriented to the home. Should she go to college? And, and, and I think

28:11

I, I don't remember who I heard this from, but it doesn't matter. But, um, but the point is, it doesn't originate with me.

28:18

So the question is, should my daughter who I'm trying to train to be a godly woman go to college? And the answer is, well, that depends is, is, is she going to college in order to have this, uh, this high flying career to climb the corporate ladder to, uh, to, um, you know, do that kind of thing?

28:35

Or is she going to college for other reasons so that she can be a good mother? So that she can, uh, teach her children so that she can help her husband?

28:43

What does her husband do? Would it be valuable to have? Because the end of the day, like women have a tremendous influence on the church through their husbands.

28:52

It's not a direct influence. It's an indirect influence. But, but think about it. All of your pastor's wives, um, have a tremendous impact on the life of the church because they have a tremendous impact on their husbands and their children, their hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

29:06

Right? So, so, so it all kind of depends. And so like these do or list of do or don'ts, can I say definitively, should a woman go to college?

29:13

Yes or no? I can't say definitively. It depends on the reasons. It depends on why. Um, and so, so I think,

29:20

I feel like you're right. It's more of a, what should, what should they be desiring?

29:25

What should men and women be doing? Um, you know, is there a list of yes or no as well?

29:32

There are some, but, but I think a lot of our questions would be answered if we just kind of had the right orientations.

29:38

Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. Having, having an affirm, affirming standard to appeal to rather than trying to find the exception.

29:45

I mean, you know, it's the same way with entertainment choices, not to be a dead horse, but you know, when people say, well, it's not wrong to watch that movie or it's not bad.

29:52

I'm like, well, okay, but is it good? Like what does it do for you spiritually? So yeah, I, uh, it's good.

29:58

Good discussion. Um, I wanted to apply this to the debate in mostly Southern Baptist circles and, uh, just for laymen.

30:06

How do we exercise discernment? Cause we're going to be hearing different things, especially those who go to the convention. Like they're going to be hearing statements that might sound good, but, but how do we nail down whether that's actually biblical or not?

30:18

So I wanted to just throw out some names out there and these are all, these are things that were said in different settings in public.

30:25

Um, so the first one is Wade Burleson and I think he's out in Oklahoma, but he says, um, the

30:32

Bible frees spirit gifted women of Christian character to serve shepherd, shepherd, teach, lead, and minister to God's people in SBC churches.

30:41

And he then kind of endorses what Beth Moore did. And so, so we look at someone like Wade, what would we say?

30:48

Would we say, I mean, it seems obvious to me he's probably more on the compliment or the, uh, soft complimentarian side or going into egalitarian.

30:57

I don't know how you differentiate those exactly. I think one slides into the other, but yeah, I honestly think they're the same thing.

31:03

Um, because, because, um, the, the idea that, you know, the only thing they can't do is be a literal elder with the, uh, the, the official title.

31:15

And that's stupid in my opinion, because if you're doing all the same things, then that's what you are, you know what

31:21

I mean? Shepherding, teaching, leading. Right. Like, so, so, so, so the

31:26

Bible frees, I mean, I could, I could just re reword this, the Bible free spirit, gifted women of the

31:32

Christian of Christian character to be elders, because that's what he's describing. So, so, so yes,

31:39

I would say that maybe he would consider himself a soft complimentarian in fairness to him. Um, but this is an egalitarian position and it's just that simple.

31:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point you bring up. I mean, it's like someone saying, I'm just going to like lead the nation, make, uh, decisions for the nation.

31:57

And like, you know, do everything a president does, but I'm not the president. Like, it's like, what? Like you're doing everything that, yeah.

32:04

And I think, I think, you know, for, and I know you didn't ask me this, but you kind of set this up, like,

32:09

I want to talk to the layman, someone who is, is kind of trying to decipher these things.

32:14

And all you have to do with something like this is use a different example. So would it be appropriate for me to do everything that I do with my wife, with another woman, as long as I don't call her my wife?

32:25

Oh gosh. Yeah. That's devastating. That would be preposterous. Everyone, you're treating her as if she's your wife.

32:32

No, it's not appropriate. Obviously. And the reality is that that's what Wade is saying here, that you can do everything an elder does.

32:40

You just can't, you just can't have the title, which, which by the way, I mean, it'll only be a matter of years before people saying that will say you can have the title too.

32:48

Why not? Because they've already done it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a gateway drug. I, I, the soft complementarianism,

32:54

I think. Sure. So here, here's another one. I'm going to start going through these and just getting your take on it.

33:00

I won't really comment much. Uh, Dwight McKissick, he says, uh, to Beth Moore's tweet, we read this earlier that she's practicing biblical fidelity because gifts are not given according to gender, but the

33:11

Holy spirit gives women the proclamation gift. And, uh, that's pretty much is the only other thing

33:19

I'll add is he wrote an article, uh, last year. And he's talking about, um, the, the, having

33:27

Beth Moore as the president of the Southern Baptist convention. And he's like, why not? He's using

33:32

Deborah and all sorts of these other women in scripture who did things and Lottie moon. And, uh, so Dwight McKissick, where we put him on the spectrum.

33:41

He's an egalitarian as well. And, and what I would say, what I would say about this comment, it's not true.

33:46

I mean, it's also irrelevant because, because I think the Owen, uh, the Owen, uh, how do you pronounce his last name?

33:53

Stran, I think Stran, the article that, that I don't know if we'll, we'll get to it, but, but his article does a good job in like, we don't pick elders based on gifts.

34:03

We pick them based on qualifications and God picks them really. He, you know, we, we call them, you know what

34:09

I mean? So, so this, that's kind of irrelevant, but, but also it's not true because the Bible describes the apostles as gifts and all of the apostles were male.

34:19

So yes, it is according to gender. Listen, I'm not, I'm, I didn't choose the apostles. I'm not embarrassed about it.

34:25

God chose them and they were all male and they were a gift to the church. So yes.

34:31

Okay. I guess that gift was, was, uh, gender, uh, exclusionary,

34:36

I guess you could say. All right. Here's another one. That was excellent. Thabiti and Wibley. Um, so he wrote an article in 2011.

34:43

This is back in 2011. I'm a complimentarian, but, uh,

34:49

I love that with women must be taught and they must teach, and he says, this is so vague, but he says,

34:55

I think we'd be healthier churches and our sisters would be, have healthier experiences in our churches.

35:00

If we could envision a wider field of usefulness for women, that includes teaching and appropriate settings.

35:05

It does not view every instance of teaching as a threat to male headship. I'm a complimentarian, but the

35:10

Bible teaches that there's more women can and should do in this area without overturning the structure of authority.

35:16

Also plainly taught in the Bible. And of course he agreed with Beth Moore. So I have that up there as well.

35:22

So, you know, and this is the thing that, that I think is so interesting about Thabiti because I actually don't disagree with the words of what he said, but, but I know what he's saying, especially as he's saying it in, in regards to Beth Moore, uh, we can do a little speech act theory on this because the reality is that, that if a man thinks of any kind of situation where a woman teaches at all as a threat, that, that, that's not the position that a man should take.

35:46

That that's not a, that's not a consistently biblical position. We have too many examples of, of a woman.

35:52

Like, for example, you talked about Priscilla and Apollos, you know, things like that, like, like that is something a godly woman can do.

36:00

However, however, um, he talks about, we should have a wider, uh, wider feel of what they should do in the church, like compared to what though?

36:09

Like what, what, that's where the slipperiness comes, comes in here. And, and it's just like, yes, women, like women teaching at all is not necessarily a problem.

36:19

It's just a matter of who they're teaching, when, why, in what context? It's like, that's the issue.

36:24

It's never really been a major issue besides that. So, so I don't know what, it's hard for me to like really say anything about this because he's very careful about how he writes, so maybe

36:37

I agree with him. Probably I don't based on his commenting about Beth Moore. I'm just going to note this as well.

36:42

Uh, he says power and privilege based fear digs in every time and never views progress and equality through the eyes of faith.

36:49

And so this is like a personal attack about against anyone who would go against Beth Moore. And it's the social justice language.

36:55

And I just feel vindicated in this because. Uh, so often this whole debate is presented as well.

37:01

There's this side and there's that side. And they both have points and we should just kind of talk about this. And, and we've made the case for a while that, no, this is like a new gospel.

37:10

This is a new worldview. And it gets into everything. It'll fundamentally overturn everything.

37:16

And this is an example of that. Thabiti Anawidli, like the way he approaches this, he just thinks about it differently. He looks at everything as a power and privilege.

37:25

Like, yeah. So he just applies it to this new issue. But, and look, and the reality is a good balance is, is hard to strike because like, we, we don't, we understand that that feminism is on the march is on the move, but we don't want to overreact and say, okay.

37:40

So because women are trying to usurp authority in the church that therefore women can't learn.

37:47

Nobody's saying that, but maybe there are some people, there probably are some people saying that there's, there's crazies everywhere.

37:53

Yeah. But, um, but this idea like women should be taught, like, yeah, show me who's saying they shouldn't be.

38:00

Right, right, right. Why are they saying it? Well, let's talk about that. But anyway. Yeah.

38:06

Yeah. No, I I've said this for a, for a long time. If you look at like Russell Moore or even Bruce Ashford or any of the guys who have this third way, it's like not

38:14

Republican really. It's not Democrat. It's this third way. Whenever they set up right and left, they, it seems like they always set up right, the right wing is like the extreme of the extreme, like they put

38:25

Nazis over there and they were like, yeah, these are the guys who think that women should just, and it's like the worst fill in the blank.

38:33

Yeah. And then for the, when they talk about the left, it's like the most reasonable left wing kind of moderate. It's just like, it's a different scale than we're used to.

38:42

It sure is. So anyway, thought I'd make that comment. Uh, JD Greer is the next one. Uh, I have a few quotes from him.

38:49

This is something he posted, uh, March 15th of this year. Can women teach in the church? And he says throughout the

38:54

Bible, we see women instructing and exhorting mixed audiences also both publicly and privately. And he gives examples, uh, women can teach large

39:01

Sunday school classes and Bible studies as long as they don't mimic teaching authority of an elder. And he says, women cannot teach during the weekend service, though they can give testimony, offer insight and speak encouragement.

39:14

And then here's the last quote. Men can work. Uh, well, this is, I guess a summary of some of his beliefs.

39:19

Men can work for women in the church setting in certain departments, as long as women place themselves under the authority of elders, what do we do with this?

39:27

So I'll give, I'll give him a little bit of credit for the soft complimentary position and I won't really call them an egalitarian.

39:33

However, um, this, this, this, this whole idea of like, so, so first of all, he starts with a non -sequitur

39:40

Miriam, Deborah, Priscilla, this has nothing to do with anything essentially. Um, the, the clarity of the verses is still clear, even despite the

39:47

Deborah, Priscilla, all this stuff. Um, teaching and admonishing one another.

39:53

Yeah. Okay. I get it. Um, what's this, this whole thing about mimicking the teaching authority of an elder?

39:58

Like, like, it just, it's just like, if I, I wonder if you asked him how to define, like how to notice it, like give me good, a good example of someone doing that.

40:10

I don't, it's actually like, so, so yeah, I, I actually like, because it's hysterical when

40:16

I read this, cause I'm thinking of a woman doing an impersonation of their elder. Cause I'm like, like, what, what else could you mean?

40:22

Like doing everything the elder would do in Sunday school. As long as you don't, what, like use their mannerisms.

40:27

Like I don't, right. Um, but, but he says it's responsibility for shepherding and be the beginning stages of discipline.

40:35

So what does that even mean? I know there's just so, there's just so much squishiness here.

40:41

Um, so I'll give him a little credit because he, not like that first guy, Wade, who's like, oh, they can shepherd too.

40:47

They can do it. Like, so I'll give this guy a little credit, but, but, um, this is a embarrassed to be a complimentary and complimentary in position.

40:56

Yeah. And, and, and he's well, yeah, I'll leave that comment. Let's go to the next guy. Oh, it's your favorite.

41:01

It's your, it's your pal. It's Russell Moore. Um, so he wrote, this is in August of last year.

41:09

Well, complimentarianism survived me too, dude. I hope you can like interpret this.

41:15

Cause I have no clue what he's talking about. Here's what he says. A genuine complimentarian church ought to be the church where the men are constantly asking, how should we give away our authority and power in every way that is biblically allowed in order to empower others and how are we to set aside our own interests in every way that is biblically allowable in order to further the interests of others.

41:35

Here's the second quote. What we are seeing now is a sifting of hyper complimentarianism and a biblical complimentarianism.

41:43

He added, well, this is a article about, uh, I guess he was interviewed. He added noting that the hyper variety emphasizes the distinctions between men and women in such a way that magnifies those distinctions beyond the commonness and sameness that we have.

41:59

What in the world? Yeah. I mean, I can kind of like, if I'm being sure, if I'm being charitable,

42:06

I mean, I could kind of understand what he's saying to a degree. Uh, I don't want to be a hyper complimentarian in the sense of,

42:12

I don't want to go overboard. Like I just got done saying that there's an overreaction that you could do. I agree with that.

42:18

Um, and then with the, with the other thing, it's just like setting aside your own interests. Well, you know, the Bible does say you should not only consider your own interest, but also the interest of other, that sounds pretty biblical.

42:27

But, but I just don't understand how, like if you're a pastor and you are, you have a certain authority when, when you're preaching the word of God, like you can't give that away.

42:40

I just, I don't know. I don't really get it. Yeah. It's like so vague. It's like,

42:46

I look at it. I'm like, okay, like everyone agrees with this. Like, what are you saying? That's right. Like, okay. Well, I guess,

42:51

I guess, I mean, it's not his fault if we all agree. I mean, I don't know. It's just, the problem is that, that he's aligned himself in such a way that it's like, you see something like this, you're like,

42:59

I'm suspicious. Even if you shouldn't be, he shadow boxes a lot.

43:04

Like he'll go after this villain. Cause I'm thinking, okay. He's arguing against something in this that he hates, but like, what is it?

43:10

Like I, is there so, so he may be like in his mind, maybe what he's saying is perfectly legitimate.

43:16

It just doesn't seem like a helpful, clarifying kind of thing to say. It doesn't, it muddies everything. Well, here, here's something that's a little more clear.

43:23

And it's one word from Russell Moore. Uh, pastor Steve Gaines said earlier this year, why shouldn't the next president of Lifeway be a competent, godly woman?

43:30

I see no biblical reason. Lifeway has to be led by a man or a former pastor. And Russell Moore says, amen.

43:37

So a little more clear, uh, what's, what's wrong with that?

43:43

I mean, they can't be pastors. Why not the president of a Christian publishing company? Well, listen, listen, that's something we can certainly talk about.

43:53

Um, I honestly, like, I always find this interesting. Like we talk about like, uh, female professors of, uh, pastoral theology and seminaries.

44:03

Like, so a, a female can't be a pastor, but she can teach a pastor how to be a pastor. So you could teach a, yeah, exactly.

44:09

I, you know, look, listen, if I know people bring this kind of stuff up all the time and to me, it seems like a red herring, it's just like, okay.

44:18

So if I grant to you that a woman could be the, the, the president of Lifeway, are you willing to go with me on?

44:24

They cannot be, they can't preach. The answer is usually no. So like, what's the point of even talking about it? I don't even care.

44:30

You know what I mean? Look, if the woman is like, I could see an example where a woman, you know, could be a, you know, a leader in a, in a, in a, in a, in a business, you know, she doesn't have kids anymore.

44:40

She's an empty nester. Probably 31. Even, I mean, she's right, right. She, she, a woman can have a business, you know, that's nothing wrong with that.

44:47

Um, but if a woman's like, oh, I'm setting out my life to be the president of Lifeway and I'm going to ignore kids and my husband and things like that's a problem, obviously.

44:56

So. Yeah, but they think that they're doing something that that's,

45:01

I think why this is kind of important is because they think that they're like arguing against something that's wrong.

45:07

Like, like he's saying, why can't a woman? He's like defensive off the bat. Sure. Uh, so there's like something out there that they're concerned about and, and that's where I'm like, okay, what is it?

45:17

Who, who are you talking about? It's you and me. It's you and me. Yeah. That's what I think. I, I, I really do think that.

45:24

Uh, so. All right. Here's some, I mean, in case that was getting upsetting to you, uh, here's

45:30

Tom Askell and Jared Longshore founders ministry. Here's a interview. Jared Longshore says, whoever the pastor is, that's her.

45:38

I must have not transcribed this. That's doesn't even make sense. Uh, Oh, here we go.

45:43

I read it wrong. Whoever the pastor is. That's having her preach, uh, talking about Beth Moore and whoever the pastor is having the other woman and across Southern Baptist churches, if there's more, those pastors need to be rebuked.

45:54

Tom Askell. Absolutely. Jared Longshore. Those pastors are oppressing these women. They're enabling them to transgress

46:01

God's command. So that's by having them preach in a Sunday sermon. So. Yeah, well, it's certainly,

46:07

I mean, I don't know if I would call it oppressing, but it is, it is definitely, um, cowardly and it is putting them in harm's way and it is not shepherding them properly.

46:16

Um, so, um, yeah, I would absolutely agree. Uh, this is a complimentarian position.

46:23

You know, if you are, if you are allowing. A woman from your congregation or another congregation to preach to your congregation, you are failing all kinds of people and especially

46:33

God, because God commanded that you not do that. So, um, yeah, I, I, this is, this is, this is right on.

46:39

I think that, um, the fact that we've got, you know, Beth Moore running around preaching on Sunday is an indictment against the church.

46:47

Yeah. Here, here's another one. Tom Schreiner. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but he, he, uh, talks about first Timothy two, 12.

46:53

He actually makes a point we've been making. It doesn't speak directly to eldership, but to function and the command is rooted in God's creation.

47:01

That's right. And so he says, I think the function of a woman teaching or preaching scripture in a sermon or a mixed

47:07

Sunday school class is also prohibited. Yeah. I think Tom Schreiner is exactly right. That, that it's, it's very clear that, that not only does it not separate the, the office and the function, but it talks to both, it speaks to both.

47:19

Um, again, Paul was a genius. He didn't write in a way that allowed for too much wiggle room. The only way you could disagree with Paul, uh, and be a

47:26

Christian, um, is, um, is to twist his words. And so, and actually Peter talks about that.

47:32

They twist his words. So, um, he doesn't really give you outs. That's not how Paul writes.

47:37

And, um, you know, anyway, so, so yeah, this is a good, and honestly, like, you know, if you think you're throwing a bone to the world, because like, look, oh, we're, we're tolerant.

47:47

We're letting a woman teach us at mixed Sunday school class, but she can't be an elder. Like the world's not going to think that you're so tolerant.

47:56

Like you're still like, there's no halfway measure here where you can satisfy like one side and not the other.

48:02

Like you have to actually pick a side here because like, yeah, you're going to be sucked into the vortex on one side or the other.

48:10

Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, that's kind of why I always bring up that, that Doug Wilson quote, because it might as well just go with the whole thing because they're never going to be satisfied.

48:19

So why not just tell, start at the outset, Hey, I'm with what God does. So whatever he does, that's the right thing.

48:26

Absolutely. Denny Burke, uh, same kind of thing. He talks about first Timothy two 12 and he talks about it being a function.

48:33

So yeah, I mean, we don't really have to spend a lot of time on this, but you know, he's a complimentarian then as well, because he's saying the same thing.

48:41

Um, Owen, uh, strand, uh, he, so, so you read this, right? This blog, uh, patios, what'd you think of that?

48:48

I thought it was a great article. I thought that there was a lot of really important points, a lot of key verses that, you know, he brings, he brings to the table,

48:59

I mean, some of the, even some, like there's a couple, I'll just pull up a few sentences that I underlined because I think they're simple, but, but we really need to like understand this for sure, and this is like one sentence.

49:13

He says biblical teaching on the sexes is not bad. Period. It's like, just stop there for a second.

49:21

You need to, everyone needs to understand that what the Bible teaches about women and men is good.

49:30

And, and God knows better than you. So whatever the icky feeling you get when, when God, you know, mocks the armies of, of, of so -and -so by calling them women, that makes you feel icky.

49:41

Well, I'm sorry, but that's good. What God said is good. Your soldiers should not be women.

49:47

It's just that simple. Right. And then, and then like, there's another one. So, um, he talks about how all, all preaching and all, all biblical teaching is authoritative.

49:59

And, and so it's like, if you speak and interpret the scripture, you speak with the full weight of eternity on you.

50:06

It cannot be otherwise. That's just stop right there. You cannot preach without authority.

50:12

There's no distinction. If you're preaching the word of God, it is authoritative. And he has given that task to men.

50:18

So I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I'm not sorry because that's what

50:23

God says. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Preaching, preaching itself. I mean, that, that, when that word is used in scripture, it's a man that's doing that every single time.

50:34

Always. You can tell me all the examples of, oh, the woman at the well, she told everybody about Christ. Yep. She sure did.

50:39

She didn't preach. Uh, oh, this person was correcting the policies, theology. Oh, yep. She sure did. She didn't preach.

50:44

You know, like there's, there's, there's no time when the Bible uses that word to describe a woman doing something.

50:52

It just doesn't happen. Excellent point. Excellent point. Yeah. So yeah, this article, um,

50:57

I think this was in response to Beth Moore and, uh, and, uh, and I think he mentions, uh, not just Beth Moore.

51:04

I think he mentions J .D. Greer in this, but he's, he's not, I mean, his tone, what did you think of his tone just out of curiosity?

51:10

I thought it was respectful. Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. And I, and I gotta be honest, like when

51:16

I, I I've seen Owen's name before and I've seen it in certain circles. So I kind of have a preconceived notion of who

51:23

Owen is before I've even read anything of him. And I was expecting him to be, um, softer.

51:32

Let me just say that no fault of his own, just because of the associations that he has. It's my own, that's my own problem for prejudging.

51:39

What I read here was not soft. It was, it was very clear and it was absolutely,

51:46

I, I make fun of this term a lot, but I, I, it was winsome. Let's just be honest. It was written in a way that I think is extremely respectful.

51:56

Given this, given, given the topic, you know what I mean? So, um, Tone issues.

52:03

Like if, if someone has a tone issue with this, I honestly don't know. I mean,

52:08

I don't know what to say about that. I mean, this was, this was great. So I'm going to actually take that link and I'm going to put it in the info section.

52:15

So if you're watching this and you want to check out that article, I would highly recommend it. Uh, just go to the info sections right there.

52:21

Uh, so last, um, but not least, I want to talk about Danny Aiken. Uh, there was a recording that was put out there yesterday online and I've, I've listened to it now twice.

52:34

Cause I really want to make sure I understood his argument and I think I get it now. Um, but let's take this one kind of line by line or, or like a few lines at a time, cause there's a few things that I put, um, here for us to discuss.

52:47

He says that Beth, the Beth Moore tweet was stupid. Um, it wasn't helpful. And I, we would probably agree that I don't know if I'd use those words, right?

52:55

I would use those words. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a little, little out there, a little harsh. Uh, but I don't like his tone.

53:02

Honestly, that tone is worse than anything I've seen in this Owen article. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Yeah. So, but he believes in a kinder, gentler complementarianism that asks, what can women do instead of what can't women do now?

53:17

That sounds really appealing. Doesn't it? I mean, it sounds so nice to ask that question. Like, do you see an issue with that?

53:22

I mean, I don't really have like a logical issue with it, but, but those are both the wrong question, in my opinion, what, what, what did

53:31

God design women for? What, what, what are, what's a woman's orientation to be? That, those are the questions.

53:37

So what should women do is more a question we should. Right. Well, what should women, and even more, maybe, maybe this is better.

53:43

I don't know, but what should women be all about? What should be, what should be their goals? What should be their desires?

53:50

Um, and I think that a lot of the questions of do's and don'ts get answered when you establish what the, what they should be about, what, what their lives should be about.

53:58

Yeah. So, yeah. So, so he, he has this soft complementarianism,

54:03

I guess this kinder, gentle, that's in his own words, complementarianism. Uh, and it seems like he doesn't like the Beth Moore tweet just cause it's, it's not helpful.

54:10

I don't know if he theologically disagrees. He didn't really go into that, but, but here's what he says.

54:16

Um, about what women can do. He says he, I don't see anything in the Bible that says a woman cannot be a king, a queen, or a prime minister or a president.

54:25

Uh, this again is a preference. I don't think it's smart to have women referees or a woman coach for a bunch of guys.

54:32

That's a wisdom issue. I can't give you chapter and verse. He says, women can pray and read the scriptures before the

54:39

Sunday sermon. They can assist in baptism and they can serve the Lord's supper. He begins to get uncomfortable if a woman starts exiting the text.

54:48

So tell you real quick, I want to hear your thought, but this is how I started making sense of it when I started hearing him say this, I was like, you know what?

54:54

It sounds like he's got two standards. There's, there's one standard. And he said this in the recording. He says that women can't be elders and they can't be leaders in the home.

55:01

And that's all Danvers says. And that's what he believes. Um, but then he uses this other standard and you, you look at the words,

55:07

I've underlined a few of them then, but he, but he says preference, a wisdom issue. Uncomfortable.

55:13

There's like this other standard that he says, well, I don't think a woman should do this because I don't like it. It's uncomfortable. Um, I mean, what do you think of that?

55:21

Do you, this, do you think women should be able to do these things? Or, or I don't know what's your mindset? I don't know.

55:27

I mean, I, I listen, I think what I find so, so silly about this is at the end of the day, if the

55:34

Bible doesn't allow women to exposit the text at the, at the worship service, which, which

55:41

I say, it's very clear. The Bible does not give the women the authority to do that. If you are saying it,

55:47

I'm just uncomfortable with it. So it's a wisdom issue that they shouldn't do it. That's actually a prejudice.

55:53

That's if you're not going with the, with the, with the idea that the Bible actually disallows it, but you just don't like it and they, therefore they shouldn't do it, that's actually misogynist.

56:03

Like that's actually sexist. My position is not that my position is, is that the scripture commands the, that, that, that authority is, is, is, is from, is, is the pastor and the pastor needs to be a male.

56:15

That's what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with my desires, except for the fact that I desire to do what

56:21

God says. You know what I mean? So, so this whole sentence here kind of struck me as like,

56:27

I don't know how he thinks this makes it better. This actually, in my opinion, makes it much worse than just doing what

56:34

God says and saying, God commands it. Instead. It's just your opinion that, oh yeah, I don't want a woman to be a referee.

56:40

It just doesn't, it just doesn't sit well with me. Like, yeah, what? Yeah. Like I don't want women in the military, for example, in combat roles, because I think

56:49

God says that that's abominable. I think God says that that's wrong. That's why I don't want it. But if you just said, well, I don't want women in, in, in military roles.

56:56

Cause I just don't like it. It's just icky. Like you're a sexist dude. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

57:03

So, so yeah, that's interesting. Cause he says, I mean, he says elders is off the table. Absolutely off the table, but yeah, there's this kind of hesitancy about women exegeting the text.

57:13

So in a low key way, trying to pull away the office from the function, even though he's not completely doing it, he's doing it in a low key way.

57:21

Right. So he's, he calls people idiots. The word he uses, uh, it's very winsome.

57:27

Uh, those who think there's this movement among women to have a woman president of the

57:33

SBC. Now, I mean, we just saw the article by Dwight McKissick, where he's like,

57:39

I want Beth Moore, the president of the SBC. So, I mean, I don't know. Well, I'll tell you right now, whether or not there's a movement among women,

57:48

I don't really care. Um, but the reality is there are many in the SBC that would like to see her as president, whether they're women or not.

57:54

And if she ever becomes president, which I don't know if she will, but, uh, whatever, it doesn't really matter if, if that ever were to happen, it would not be the, the, the, the fault of the female movement, it would be the fault of the men in the

58:06

SBC. Exactly. And maybe he's right about that. Like, it's not the women who are maybe conspiring to do this.

58:12

It's going to be men letting it happen. Um, and I mean, he's absolutely right about some of the things he says. He says some very good things by the way, in this lecture, but you know,

58:19

I'm just trying to make sense of what he actually believes and where he lines up on our scale. But you know, it's the thing that he didn't address is can, uh, can a woman be the president of the

58:32

SBC? Because he says all these things. What can women do? That's the question he wants to ask. Well, they can be a queen. They can be all these things.

58:38

Um, but Hey, they're idiots. The people who think that a woman would ever be a president of the SBC, but it's like, but, but, but can they, that's what

58:44

I would want to ask him. Right. Uh, like forget the practicality of it. Like, why not?

58:50

Well, I mean, in order to be consistent, I don't understand how you could say they couldn't, if a woman can be the queen and that's

58:57

Godly God honoring thing, and that's totally fine. If we had a world full of female

59:02

Kings, the president of the SBC, what would be the big deal? Yeah. Yeah. So, so here's where it gets, it gets really interesting.

59:10

Um, I think it starts pinning down more his belief in these next quotes. He says, I'm very much where Russell Russell Moore Russ is.

59:18

Russ has been one of the ones that has been helping promote the woman's network. And they just met recently last week at the

59:25

ERLC and, you know, engaging these questions. I will say this. They were severely wounded by Owen strands blog piece, which we just talk about.

59:33

I thought it was quite wrong in both tone and content.

59:39

So yeah, well, yeah, why don't you go ahead? This is where I started to get more troubled.

59:45

Cause I'm like, well, what was wrong in content? And the tone seemed fine to me, but like, what is there to disagree with?

59:52

He's just forwarding what the Bible says about, so basic.

59:57

I mean, it's, it's, it's, there's nothing, there's nothing controversial about what, what Owen said, in my opinion. I mean,

01:00:03

I think, and I, and I, and I say this again, I went into this article expecting just because of his associations for him to be softer on this and he's not.

01:00:12

Um, in fact, I think he could have gone further and had been totally within his, his biblical warrant to do it, but he didn't.

01:00:18

And that's fine. I have, I have nothing to quibble with the article. What I will say is this, that, that if, if people, and if women were wounded by this article, good.

01:00:28

I'm glad that they were, because the thing is the word of God does that. Sometimes it just does. And, and so, um, you know, you're right.

01:00:37

That, that, that quote kind of makes me seem like maybe he's a little softer of a softer complimentary and that I thought at first, right?

01:00:44

Yeah. That's what I thought too. I, and, and here's where it even got more. So I was like, okay, maybe he's like really soft.

01:00:51

Cause he says, um, he talks about Criswell, uh, letting his wife teach a co -ed

01:00:57

Bible study at first Dallas. And he thinks, and this is the word he used. It was unwise. And then, so listen to this.

01:01:02

He says, I think it was probably even, I don't want to say unbiblical because if I say that then, and he cuts himself off and he says,

01:01:10

I'll just say, I don't think it was the truest expression of what the Bible teaches about what women do.

01:01:17

I, I don't have a problem teaching. You pick the context co -ed exceptionally, but not normative.

01:01:25

If Lottie moon were alive today, would I have her come to my church and speak on a Sunday morning?

01:01:30

I would, but she wouldn't be there every Sunday in the authoritative position of a teaching elder.

01:01:36

Uh, it strikes me as it strikes me as just like watching one of those presidential debates where you get asked a question and you're just like, you don't want to answer it, but you kind of have to, because if you don't, you're going to get slammed.

01:01:50

So like you answer it, but like, you don't say anything of any value. You just kind of go between two positions and expect it to all make sense at the end.

01:01:58

It just doesn't. Right. This, this makes no sense. This makes no sense at all. So it's unwise, but it's kind of unbiblical, but maybe not.

01:02:05

But what could she preach? Yeah, she could, but maybe not every Sunday. Like it just, it's just, it's just, there's no consistency to this.

01:02:14

And I'm not going to say that he doesn't have a position that he holds consistently, but he sure, sure as heck did not communicate it.

01:02:21

Yeah. And this is in a class, the video that I saw, I think it, uh, the, the title was, um,

01:02:29

Oh gosh, it was something on, uh, gender. So it was men and women.

01:02:34

So, so the class is actually on this subject. So, yeah, yeah. So Al Mohler, um, he, he put out that tweet about Beth Moore and, you know, him and, and Danny Aiken are friends and it would be cool,

01:02:45

I think, if, uh, this is not happening already, if, uh, maybe some of the things that are going on at Southeastern, uh, were addressed, um, because it's not just Danny Aiken necessarily, that's saying some of the stuff that,

01:02:57

I mean, people are paying for, you know, in the pews for their pastors to learn, and it sounds similar to some of the things

01:03:03

Beth Moore saying, but, um, I, I wanted to show you this. This is, um, this is the church Danny Aiken goes to it's

01:03:09

Wake Crossroads and they put out an email. Uh, this was, I think last week or the week before, but there, um, they have a, the search team, so they have a search committee at their church and it says chairperson, not chairman, but chairperson of the search team is a woman.

01:03:24

Politically correct. Yeah. Yeah. Very politically correct. A woman's name. So, so they're looking for, uh,

01:03:29

I guess a pastor, cause that would be what a search committee does. And a woman is the chairperson in charge of searching for a pastor.

01:03:37

It just, it seems it's weird. Um, and then you look at the seminary itself. If you go to the website, even right now, the trustee listing.

01:03:44

So here's the chairman. So they're not as politically correct at the seminary. Uh, the chairman is, uh, another woman.

01:03:51

So the person in charge of helping like craft men's curriculum and, and I guess hiring professors and,

01:03:58

I mean, just the spiritual health and everything else, financial health of the school is, is a woman.

01:04:04

So I'm like scratching my head a little bit and it doesn't surprise me as much that Danny Aiken believes what he believes of this is kind of the church and the seminary that he's at.

01:04:13

Right. Yeah. And to me, it's just, this is the, this is an example of, I think what, what, what

01:04:19

Russell Moore, I think was saying about, we should try to give up as much authority as we can to, to, to the women as biblically allowable.

01:04:26

So are they within their biblical rights to, to have a chair woman? Um, looking for a pastor,

01:04:32

I mean, person, chairperson, chairperson. Yeah.

01:04:38

I mean, like, I don't want to, I don't really want to weigh in too much on that, but the reality is, is why would you think that's a good idea?

01:04:46

Like, I just, I don't get it. I don't really, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's kind of silly to say, well, a woman can't be a pastor, but a woman sure knows who the best pastor is.

01:04:55

Like, I don't, I don't know. It just seems kind of preposterous to me. I don't really think there's like, you know, again, we talk about Deborah, we talk about Priscilla, there's certain circumstances that led to these things.

01:05:07

Is there a, is there a, um, um, just a lack of men that are capable of, of, of running a search pastor search?

01:05:14

I highly doubt it, but you know, you know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Or being the, the chair chairman and the trustee board, it's the same thing.

01:05:22

Right. I highly doubt that the problem is that there's just no men capable. Yeah. I think there's some engineering going on there.

01:05:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, good, good point. Um, do you have any final thoughts? Yeah, well, I'll say this, and this is, this is,

01:05:36

I think you, you, you wanted to gear this towards the layman, you know, someone who's just trying to figure these things out, they have opinions on it, but they're just trying to weigh, you know, what does the scripture really say?

01:05:45

And I think, you know, I'm a simple guy and, and. You know, I, I didn't go to seminary or anything like that.

01:05:51

There's nothing wrong with seminary, but I didn't go there. This is, there are some things that are hard to understand that, you know, maybe, uh, you know, knowing the

01:05:58

Greek would be helpful. No, you know, not going to seminary might be helpful. Uh, there are certain things like that, that are a little bit more complicated.

01:06:06

This is not one of them. It is easy to understand what Paul says in, in, in first Timothy. It is very easy to understand what

01:06:12

Paul's saying in, in, in passages in Corinthians and some of the other pastorals, it's easy to understand.

01:06:18

Uh, Genesis where, where, with a woman's made as a helper, uh, for her husband. Um, these are things that are not, the, the, the applications might be slightly more complicated, but, um, it's not difficult to understand what, what

01:06:31

God has in mind for men and women. And so, um, I would just encourage you that, um, though you might hear complicated sounding exegesis.

01:06:40

Okay. Stick with, stick with what you know is true and this complex and also pay attention because the same people that will use this complicated, oh, it's a cultural thing is cause weird exegesis here.

01:06:54

They won't use that exegesis almost anywhere else. They just use it here. And it's just because they want to do this for some reason.

01:07:02

I don't, I don't, I'm not going to put motivations, but, but don't feel like you have to be a scholar to understand this. You don't.

01:07:07

Amen. Yeah. I couldn't have said it better myself. Uh, 80, where can people find you and how can we be praying for you?

01:07:14

Yeah. Uh, so, um, you can find me, uh, on YouTube, just a D Robles, R O B L E S.

01:07:21

Um, and that's the main place. And then also I'm on Twitter and that's a real 80

01:07:26

Robles, kind of like real Donald Trump. Oh, you mentioned

01:07:32

Doug Wilson and Donald Trump in one podcast. This is not good. Those are the two people you cannot name.

01:07:37

I, I failed last night and I feel, please, I'm not knocking down again. So please, I'm very much appreciated.