May 31, 2016 Show with Mark Michael Zima on “Mother Teresa: A Saint to be Revered or A False Teacher to be Exposed? A Legendary Figure to be ‘Canonized’ by Rome Under Scrutiny”

Iron Sharpens Iron’s Mother Teresa Examination and the Coming Canonization

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this last day of May 2016.

And you just heard it live, folks, a fruit fly flew into my mouth just as I was making the announcement. Excuse me, that's a first in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron. Well today we have a very controversial program.

In fact, it's the first of two programs that they will conclude tomorrow on the issue of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Is she a saint to be revered or a false teacher to be exposed? A legendary figure to be canonized by Rome under scrutiny.

Many of you may have heard that Mother Teresa, it has been announced that Mother Teresa will be canonized by Rome officially as a saint this fall, the September I believe, and I think that it is very appropriate since she is a beloved figure not only by Roman Catholics, but she is a beloved figure highly revered by mainline Protestants and even many evangelical Protestants, evangelicals who many of whom even claim to be conservative and Bible-believing.

Many people across the Christian spectrum highly revere Mother Teresa and it is very appropriate that since the news is no doubt going to be saturated with stories on her, especially this fall, regarding her canonization, I think it's very appropriate that we put her under the microscope and we are going to be doing that over the next two days.

We're going to be starting off by hearing a program that originally aired on February 18th and February 19th 2008. It was an interview I had with a Roman Catholic author, Mark Michael Zima. He is a traditionalist Catholic in good standing with the Church of Rome and he wrote a book called Mother Teresa, The Case for the Cause, Is Mother Teresa of Calcutta a Saint?

This is a very highly controversial book that gained him a lot of opposition from his fellow Roman Catholics because Mark Michael Zima stood in staunch opposition to the canonization of Mother Teresa and wrote a lengthy letter to Pope Benedict who was the Pope of Rome at the time back in 2008 when he wrote the letter.

So I thought it was very appropriate since Mark Michael Zima had done a lot of research into the life, writings, and teachings of Mother Teresa to interview him so it would not be viewed by Catholics and ecumenists as being nothing more than hate speech on my part.

There is bigotry and hatred have nothing to do with this. I have members of my own family who are Roman Catholic that I love dearly. I have very close friends who are Roman Catholic whom I love dearly and even some of them I prefer their company over some professing evangelical Christians that I know.

So this has nothing to do with hatred at all and I hope that you can put that smoke screen out of your mind as you listen to this two-day examination of Mother Teresa. Tomorrow we are going to have Dr. Tony Costa who is a former Roman Catholic and is now an evangelical Christian and Calvinist and professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is going to be analyzing the interview that I'm playing today that I had with Mark Michael Zima in 2008. So without any further ado I'm going to begin the program. You're going to hear an interesting program because it's a blast from the past.

This is as I said from 2008 that's back in the day when we were broadcasting from WNYG and WGBB in Babylon Long Island New York and we were taking live phone calls during those years broadcasting from Long Island rather than just taking emails from our listeners.

So you're going to hear that the phone lines were certainly jammed during these broadcasts. In fact what you're going to be hearing is two broadcasts since my program is only an hour long back in those days you're gonna be hearing two broadcasts back-to-back that have been put in a form where you can hear them all in one day.

And so I hope that you are blessed I hope that you get on the phone and call your family friends and loved ones or get behind your computer keypad and start texting and emailing and however else you communicate with your family friends and loved ones especially if they're Roman Catholic and tell them to listen in at ironsharpensironradio .com to today's broadcast.

But without further ado here is my interview from February 18th 2008 with Mark Michael Zima. Good afternoon Long Island New York Connecticut and those listening internationally over the internet this is Chris Zarnes and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Catholics mainline Protestants and even many evangelicals uphold Mother Teresa of Calcutta as one of the greatest heroes of Christendom. Ten years after her death she still holds the moral imagination of the world.

Those who question Mother Teresa's sanctity are treated as misguided fools who would better their time imitating her virtues than probing for her peccadilloes. The Christian world will praise Mother Teresa of feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty but what faithful Christian will praise her for saying I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.

Well today we are going to be interviewing Mark Michael Zima a traditionalist Catholic in good standing who is going to address the very controversial question is Mother Teresa a saint? A Catholic's critical examination of a modern-day Catholic hero.

Mark Michael Zima is the author of the newly published book Mother Teresa the case for the cause. When I pick up the phone during the station break and call your family friends and loved ones perhaps if they have a high esteem and admiration for Mother Teresa and have them tune into the program via live-streaming.

We'll be right back after these messages with Mark Michael Zima and your questions don't go away.

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Chris Zarnesen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. If you've just tuned us in our guest today is Mark Michael Zima a former religious brother of two communities the brothers of Our Lady of Reconciliation and the slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

He has devoted much of his life to theological and philosophical studies as well as the evangelism of Catholicism. He has taught sacred scripture as well as right of Christian initiation for adults and has been a Catholic youth director at a parish in Oregon.

He has been associated with many different Catholic organizations including the St. Augustine Institute of Catholic Studies, the St. Anthony of Padua chapter of Una Voce and the Fatima Crusader. And I want to offer this caveat to our listeners this interview is not to be mistaken as an expression of modern ecumenism between this Reformed Baptist host and my Roman Catholic guest on this broadcast.

I merely believe that a critical examination of Mother Teresa from a scholarly Catholic perspective is not only something that may never be heard or seen elsewhere in the media but is a valuable topic for discussion in a day and age where the desire to preserve theological purity has been replaced with sentimentalism in both modern Catholicism and evangelicalism.

In addition to that when considering the life of a much-beloved Catholic figure who is a hero to countless millions worldwide spanning religious boundaries I believe if a fundamentalist or evangelical Protestant were provide the critique today many would not seriously evaluate the contents of this broadcast due to a misconception that religious bigotry was the underlying motive of this discussion.

Well I want to welcome to this program for the very first time Mark Michael Zima. Good afternoon. Thank you Chris for having me on. Yes I'd like you to first of all before we even get into the discussion about Mother Teresa give a further explanation of your theological perspective just so our listeners will have a clear idea of the one who is making this evaluation about a Catholic hero.

Okay I'm a traditional Catholic.

Very you know would be considered a mainstream traditional Catholic not someone who's estranged from the papacy. I believe in in the papacy and in the the holder of that office then is the 16th. I am someone who believes that all the documents of the church that are consistent with the there's an order of authority that highest authority being first that all documents have to be in that line and so I'm not someone who would believe that just because the Pope makes a statement one day that ergo every Catholic has to believe it if it's.

Not in line with that tradition. Mm-hmm. And well tell us why you wrote this very controversial book. It couldn't have been in an effort to make friends. Yeah it was.

Merely as I have in the dedication of the book it was to defend our Lord and and the faith and to honor the the saints of history. It was it wasn't it wasn't a contest of how to win the most of the church or even you know different fractions of the church to me it was merely just to be faithful to that tradition and I saw that I had to do that in light of the faith and that the parameters of the faith in this day defend my position on that.

But I'm not doing anything which would be considered outside of the fidelity that any Catholic could offer even if you weren't a traditional Catholic because my defense of my position is very much rooted in to start off with the.

Conciliar and post conciliar documents. Mm-hmm. The I found this this part this section of your book to be something helpful to quote to our listeners today. Okay you say here in your book if this book will be of any profit to you you must separate the Mother Teresa of shadow from the Mother Teresa of substance.

The popular image formed in head and heart of Mother Teresa must be put aside for the objective non-emotional reading of the evidence. Your challenge is to ask yourself the following questions. If anyone else who was not Mother Teresa said and did these things what would you think.

How would you respond. Did Mother Teresa follow the faith once delivered to the Saints by her words and deeds. Did Mother Teresa follow in the footsteps of the Saints who preceded her. Did Mother Teresa believe in consistently teach that only in truth can man find salvation.

Did Mother Teresa believe in consistently teach that no one knows God except anyone to whom Jesus wishes to reveal him. Did Mother Teresa teach another gospel. And did Mother Teresa believe in a new God.

And we're going to be covering as many of those questions as we can during this discussion. Did. Is there a big move in the Catholic Church to have Mother Teresa canonized as a saint. Oh absolutely. I'm actually the five-year.

Waiting rule to begin our cause was actually waived by John Paul II so that's that's six years after she had died she was already declared a blessed by the church. So yeah it's in the words of the prefect for the congregation of causes he said.

Well he said the tide of public opinion just kind of rolled into our office and that's one of the reasons why in in past decades and centuries there was actually a longer waiting period as much as a hundred years before they even start a cause.

You consider the person whether or not they should be canonized because they know how much of an effect public opinion can have on people that they're so close to the tree they just can't see the forest.

Mm-hmm.

Well why don't we begin before we even get into some of the criticisms that you have. Why don't we begin by giving some background of Mother Teresa as much as you can on how and or should I say why and when she became a nun and some of the the works of mercy and the honorable things that she that she was and is very.

Well known for well she was good is it. You've done your question. Yes. Okay. She was born 1910. And what is she's Albanian descent. And what is today Yugoslavia. She at 18 which is very traditional to do that she under the convent in 1928 scattered for the sisters of Loretto and was with them for oh about 20 years before she started missionaries of charity.

Her desire to become a sister was just it was a natural flow of something that she had desired from her youth. And the history of her starting the missionaries of charity is kind of it's debated. There are two different traditions on that whether or not that she was on a in 1946 she had a vision on a train that God was calling her to help the poorest of the poor.

Or there's another tradition that she she was assisting a man on a train station and helping him pass and that was where she kind of got the inspiration for the order. As far as her order is known there they're basically known for their works of charity their their corporation charity and that is that's their popularity.

It's about an order of Oh about 4 ,000 sisters or so. And there's a brother's order to that.

And they're not quite as large. Hmm. Well let's go into some of your questions. Did mother Teresa follow the once delivered the faith once delivered to.

The Saints. Yes. And no answers here. Well my thesis is simply to say no and that's and that's the reason why I wrote the book. But I tried to present the book in light of that. One of the reasons why I wrote the book is simply because no one else had done it and that's that saddened me.

That's to to present her her total teachings consistently that present her virtues and her vices and not to just hammer her and say well she had no virtues whatsoever and so you have to really separate her corporal works of mercy from her spiritual works.

Of mercy. Hmm. So in what ways do you think that she departed from the faith.

Once delivered to the Saints well you know Christians always debated whether or not what the gospel has is and that's a better you and I would have some very strong different. Well you know that. Well you know no doubt and yet we wouldn't disagree that it had to be how what our what.

The cost will it have to be spread. Yes. Yet in mother Teresa's case her gospel was to help Hindus become better Hindus Buddhists better Buddhists Muslims better Muslims and whatever religion you are become a better whatever you are.

Now if you can name somebody in Christian history that taught that was regarded as the Saints.

I'll take my hat off to you but I don't know of anybody. Hmm great. Did mother Teresa believe and consistently teach that only in truth can man find.

Salvation. Well inevitably if you're helping people become better Hindus and and in in teaching that to help them become whatever they are better whatever they are then you're kind of in a situation where no necessarily it's not truth.

Truth kind of takes a backseat to what what the faith truly is and so.

That's the answer is just simply no. Well now how do you respond to the catechism of the Catholic Church. In article 841 it says the church's relationship with the Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place.

Amongst whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful God mankind's judge. On the last day. Now obviously from what you just said you must have a strong disagreement with the modern catechism.

Of the Catholic Church. Well as I said earlier that you know all documents of the church have to be read in light of the higher authority and have to be consistent with that. So if something's inconsistent with a prior dogma of the faith of the standard teaching of the faith over the couple last two millennia that teaching becomes null and void.

And in this case Vatican II was constructed to basically restate what Catholics from the own the words of the hierarchy themselves to just restate the faith as it always was believed. And this is one of the reasons why you have a traditionalist movement in the world today simply because traditionalist and Catholics in general don't remember believing that we Muslims worship the same God as us.

So yes I would say that that teaching is pretty regrettable that they they did state that so the present.

Day catechism of the Catholic Church is not binding upon Roman Catholics as far as dogma. Well here's where you get into the palms that are going on in church.

Today there are many statements in the catechism which are are very good and the only thing is you know some people have said well it's an infallible document. Well that's that's an interesting thing to say considering the thing was revised five years after it was initially printed which I don't remember any revisions of dogmas of the faith.

And so people who make that statement I know you know they're looking. They're looking for the kind of clarity that that came out of Rome 50 years ago where you had you had a very much united profession of faith and that translated into the laity themselves right down the ranks.

But unfortunately we're not living in that time. We're living in an age of apostasy and so that's that's the difficulty they're.

Facing on how do they deal with this. Yes. How do you respond to the notion of some Catholics. In fact several years ago I organized a theological debate between the theologically reformed apologist dr. James R white and the Roman Catholic apologist Gary Machuda.

Actually no it wasn't with Gary Machuda on the specific that was on the apocrypha it was a it was another debate with an individual whose name escapes me a Catholic apologist and the the issue was on Ken.

Non-christians enter heaven. And it seems that the position of many Catholics today is that yes Jesus Christ is the only way that a human being can be saved but you do not have to acknowledge that in order to receive the benefits of his death.

How do you respond to that. Yeah that's the new thing. It's.

Kind of the the Barthian way let's separate space from from grace and they that's kind of the push to say that Oh God's desire to be to save all men is so grand that you know he he'll just he'll start cutting the corners of everything that he ever said.

And somehow grace just applies to everybody and through that they're just saved where they're at as long as they're sincere. And that's you know that's kind of that has made its way I mean through the ranks through Catholics and and and Protestant ranks and is just becoming so cop popular anymore and that's probably one of the Supreme Heresy that have spun off of.

You're not having a proper understanding of the chariots atonement and the.

Doctrine of predestination. Yes. Well that brings me to the next question that I thought was interesting that you a non Calvinist would ask this. Did mother Teresa believe and consistently teach that no one knows God except anyone to whom Jesus wishes to reveal him.

Very interesting question coming from a Catholic right. Move the question again. I didn't. I well did the the question that you asked in your book. Did mother Teresa believe and consistently teach that no one knows God except anyone to whom Jesus wishes to reveal him.

Well you.

Know obviously the answer is no. Yes. Yeah and you know that is that was that's part of the concern. I mean consistently she was very consistent in her her faith. It's just that faith was not the biblical faith so you know she was in many respects.

Well I don't I don't want to answer some of your other questions because if I go on I'll be answering some of the other questions you can be.

Answering so I'll just stop there. Okay now was this was mother Teresa to your knowledge. Anyway did she always hold this pluralistic view of. So that's the.

Strange thing about it if you look at her private writings which came out in September of last year what is fascinating is she convinced the Archbishop of Calcutta to just let her found the order based on that she was sending saying that the poor Indians were ignorant of the gospel and of Christ and and and and wallowing their sins and had to be evangelized.

But then after she found that the order of the public profession she was making was if the Indians would approach her she would say oh yes I convert you I convert you to be a better Hindu or Buddhist or whatever you are.

And so there was this dualism going on. So people were shocked that there was a dualism in her private life that they never never knew about until what private writings came out. And now my book on the heels of that by the province of God is stating that oh there was a dualism also in her theological life and the two actually were hand in.

Hand yeah we have to go to a break right now and there. There have been many Roman Catholics who have been informed about this interview including a man who served as mother Teresa's attorney for several years who knows he might be even pulling in as well.

Don't go away we'll be right back.

Mother Teresa, Catholic Canonization, and Her Public Image

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Welcome back if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is Mark Michael Zima a traditionalist Catholic in good standing and he's discussing his book mother Teresa the case for the cause and another couple of interesting things about Mark.

He knew and visited the late father Malachi Martin. A theological expert on the Second Vatican Council and author of the Jesuits and many other popular Catholic books he has worked to found Catholic monasteries with Catholic priests.

He has written to Cardinal Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict the 16th and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to address the theological problems in the Catholic Church. And how did.

How did Mother Teresa capture the imagination of the entire world. How did she become.

So famous. Yeah good press. Definitely. I mean there's obviously a lot of people in the world who do the things that Mother Teresa has done and said the things that Mother Teresa has said. But you know as someone who works in the media Chris you're probably well aware that if you get on television you get on radio and you get in the spotlight long enough and everybody sees you well then you become someone special.

Of course you know all of her 4 ,000 sisters do exactly what she did but that they're not. They don't have the same press. She is in a special category. And then on the other hand I would also say that the world is looking it's looking out of to get rid of the supernatural to get to naturalize.

Or to really cut off the distinctions of confessions and just say oh look we all just worship God let's get together and hold hands and you know sway the music and turn the lights down low and they don't really want to deal with the distinctions that would have separated Protestants and Catholics of the past and that type of thing.

So if they just you concentrate on someone who just practiced the corporal works of mercy of feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty and so on then that's kind of that's the kind of new.

They want that's the kind of Christian they want. So probably one of the most crucial questions I can ask and you've really in many ways already answered it but to put it as bluntly as you did in your book did mother Teresa teach.

Another gospel. Well absolutely sadly yes she did and you know you asked you know what what was her teaching and and I was I actually was amazed to find that almost word-for-word that the the teaching that she taught was I I help you become a better Hindu Buddhist Muslim whatever you are.

There's a group of Hindu monks in Calcutta named the Ramakrishna movement and out of the 19th century is when they were founded and that's actually that is their creed. And I found the comparisons considering her order was founded in Calcutta that that was very shocking to me that that and then I started looking at what were the Hindu and mother Teresa comparisons that I drew and I try to pull them out.

In the book hmm well the the evangelical would obviously not believe in the Catholic concept of canonization of Saints but we would we would say most of us anyway would say that if a person did not believe and teach the true gospel that person is not a Christian.

Would would you make that same evaluation of.

Mother Teresa. Well you know if as Catholics I mean that's that's a Catholic Protestant distinctive to be a Christian as a Catholic one has to have a valid baptism that and have to make a general profession of the Trinity Christ as their Savior incarnation and they have to have their certain rudiments that you have to hold but outside of that one you would still be a Christian in the light of Catholic faith.

But if you say then reject it. The central articles like what she did in this case. Yes she there's a rejection of the Christian faith in her case and so she asked you to consider someone that we would call not an apostate someone who was a Christian someone who became an.

Apostate. Hmm. And we do have a caller on the line an internet listener in Corpus Christi Texas. Pastor John. Welcome to our interpretive iron. Hello Chris. Yes. I'm having a little trouble hearing you.

Well our engineer is gonna be working and turning up your volume because I could barely hear you. Right. John are you there. Yes. Okay a little bit better. Oh this is this John. Otis. Oh well. Welcome to the program.

Great. You have a question for our guest.

He was mentioning whether concerning when non-christians can be saved and I just wanted to have his input on to the questions for example that are in Christian and answer Catholic catechism that father John Harden wrote with the approval of John Paul.

The second and the first one of the catechism questions 176 says. Does God give the grace of salvation to all human beings. The answer yes. God gives sufficient grace for salvation to all human beings.

This means that even though not had the gospel preached to them can reach heaven. They must be faithful to the inspirations of grace as manifested by reason and whatever form of revelation they have received.

And then catechism question 418 says how can non-christians be saved. And the answer is non-christians can be saved through the church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and by their cooperation with the internal graces the Holy Spirit which they receive.

Now in getting this I it's my understanding that when the Pope signs off on this authoritative teaching and he speaks in his official capacity as the Pope that these catechisms are.

Official church dogma I mean what is. And then John could you take your answer off the internet. Because we have a gym phone line people trying to get through. Take my answer off the internet. Yes. In other words if you could hang up and listen to Mark's answer over the internet.

You follow Pastor John? Yes I'll hang up. Thank you very much. Sorry about that. Yes Mark. Yeah sure.

Yeah that's that's the question of the imprimatur that that certain books have received in the past and you know that it's those books are supposed to be free from error. The imprimatur is very helpful it's not but it's not a dogmatic statement.

And the other thing would be the the Nehropstats which is there's nothing of permitting the imprimatur is being allowed to be printed. And that those statements aren't. If you have mostly they come from bishops.

But if if you have one of those it doesn't necessarily mean that the the statement the book is completely free from error. It's just it's very helpful. But I've I've come across books that have imprimatur and yeah they as reformed individual I know I think you'll enjoy this that I know of books that are pre Vatican II that will openly say that as Catholics we don't believe in predestination.

If you do any homework you know that the church has dogmatic definitions on predestination. In fact if you read Trent the whole debate if you read the documents it's very clear on the assurance of salvation.

What Trent was saying there was saying that you have assurance of your predestination a metaphysical assurance of your predestination and so for for someone to miss that it's you know it's obvious why we had some of the the.

Upheaval that we've had in the last 50 years. Yes just a just a curiosity I wanted to get your opinion on this. Being a Roman Catholic I have been accused by Catholics and evangelicals alike of being guilty of religious bigotry because I make the statement that the Catholic Church in my opinion has a false gospel and therefore those Catholics who are faithful to the dogma of Rome regarding justification are not true Christians.

Now obviously you disagree with me on that but do you think that that renders me guilty of.

Bigotry? Absolutely not. And in fact we need a little more of that would be refreshing and in this age where we're all you know as we said earlier we're trying to be so friendly that what's happening is we're just getting much and so people are looking.

I mean it's a natural inclination of men to seek certainty and to seek absolutes and so they will go anywhere they can find that. And that's one of the reasons why there's been a flood of the Catholic Church and and and you know liberal Protestant churches there are dying because they have they're promoting that all the time and that's not popular on in the secular world.

But you know in reality you know it's the old question someone says to you well there's no absolute truth and you know you just ask him well are you absolutely sure. So no I don't think you're a bigot at all in.

That statement. Well thanks. It's good to hear a Catholic say that though. You're not going to hurt my feelings, I'll recover. Well we do have a caller on the line. I believe this is Jim Tuohy from Pennsylvania who is an advocate of Mother Teresa and welcome to the program Jim Tuohy in Pennsylvania welcome to the program.

Some reason Jim Tuohy cannot hear us. I don't believe. Now I'm deaf as well so let's go to a break right now. Actually it's it's time to go to a break.

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Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns and we are interviewing Mark Michael Zima a traditionalist Catholic in good standing who is the author of the book Mother Teresa the case for the cause.

Our guest Mark Michael Zima is taking the position or takes the position that Mother Teresa of Calcutta is not a saint. And we do I hope. Have our caller still on the line Jim Tuohy in Pennsylvania. I could barely hear Jim for some reason.

I could very faintly. Okay I'm doing all right but I don't know if I'll be able to understand your statement. Apparently our engineers have done all they could to increase your volume. Okay. Well if you could just very briefly comment then on or respond to Mark Michael Zima's statements that Mother Teresa embraced and taught a false gospel because she gave the hope of salvation to even those who reject Christ and our adherence of other religions other than Christianity how do you respond to that.

Well I think that she saw everyone as children of God. He was profoundly in love with Jesus Christ he was devout in her faith and long for all people that she encountered to know the fullness of the faith and so she was really not indifferent to the plight of souls that she dealt with.