New Age Discussion with Doreen Virtue

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I'm mr. Smalley. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy Well, we are trying to be live let's see if we could change that there we go we

00:43

Are live having technical issues with StreamYard. So it just before we went live booted

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Myself and the co -host out Or our guests I should say out and she's still trying to get back in so we're gonna be running doing some technical stuff back here while we while we try to get her logged in and My co -host drew is not in so This will be a rocky start of a show.

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Sorry about that folks This is a politics live. We're here to answer your most challenging questions You have about God and the

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Bible and just click on the little duck icon for StreamYard You allow your mic to be used

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I would actually appreciate if anyone would do that right now Just so we could test to see if someone can get in so we know if it's what's going on with our guest who was

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In earlier, we did do an equipment check and made sure everything sounded great and then two minutes before Nothing was working.

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It booted me out. I had to relog in and she's having trouble Getting in so I would say that if anyone can just do a quick test with me

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Just jump in apologetics live .com just to make sure that To see what it is.

01:59

Our topic tonight is going to be the new age movement With our guest Doreen virtue, which we are hoping we can get her in so the

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We're not sure what exactly happened with StreamYard, but I don't know

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So this is a ministry of striving for eternity. This is Something I am the host of the show

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Andrew Rappaport I am the executive director of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community and Also The executive director of the

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Christian podcast community. All right, let's bring our guest in and make sure we can hear her Doreen welcome.

02:41

Oh No, it's still saying you're muted or at least I'm not hearing you. Oh Folks we actually did test this we had it all working.

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We really did This is the thing with a live stream. You just don't know what's gonna happen

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I'm trying to look to see if there's any settings on my side Because I it looks like that, okay, how about how about now we go now

03:10

I hear you. Okay. All right So many buttons to push here Hi The show can only get better from this point on After that start

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We're uphill now. That's right so so Let me introduce the reason for the show and then

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I want to introduce our guest Doreen We had gotten and I do want to let you guys know

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I thank you when you give us ideas of what you want to hear And so we got a an email a couple of emails actually one that asked whether I would be willing to discuss the new age movement and So since I'm such an expert on that or not

03:54

I know a little bit about it But I know someone who actually is an expert and I figured we'd have her on We also are gonna do some series.

04:03

We had someone that really appreciated when we talked about mental health and And even broader just we're trying to get into just health in general and we never actually got to discussing that So what

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I think what we're gonna end up doing is a summer series. We never actually did something like that before so we're gonna try it we're gonna do a summer series since two of our speakers at Striving for Eternity are

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ACBC counselors and my pastor and his wife are ACBC counselors We're gonna do a series throughout the summer where we'll have the four of them on to discuss different topics dealing with Counseling.

04:41

So if you would like your favorite topic or a topic you really say, you know I'd really want to get something put to be heard about just contact us at info at striving for eternity calm info at striving for eternity

04:57

Calm and here is my co -host coming in Drew, how are you, sir?

05:04

Good Good you deserve to be got little ones running around your house. Yeah, so so I'm here until my wife texts me and We can go spend time together, yes, so you're shown

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I'll see now it doesn't show the see they reset all the settings to by the way when just before we we went in We had everything got

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They booted us out of streamyard and now I'm noticing that when I when I take away the banner It was supposed to come up with your your tagline, which is then dead guy readers

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And I was gonna make a joke about you being dead tired, but okay, we will have to figure out settings another time so So yeah, so we had a user who listener.

05:52

Sorry who said hey would really like to understand more about new age They have a family member who is

05:59

Getting pulled into that and they just really were not sure how to answer for some of the things that were that were coming up and so I asked

06:10

Doreen if she would come in now Doreen you have a little bit of a background I mean you you might have studied

06:16

New Age a little bit. Is that that right? Yeah, just a little bit Well, I was raised in metaphysics new thought kind of like the

06:25

Norman Vincent Peale type of Christian science Phineas Quimby background and then For over 20 years.

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I got into New Age and occultism and was a top -selling New Age teacher Unfortunately was was very ambitious and now

06:39

I regret that because I have books out there. I can't get off the market the only

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Romans 828 part about it is that my websites on the back of those books and people do

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Come to me through that and they hear I get to talk with them about the gospel and why

06:56

I don't do that anymore Why and how God miraculously saved me out of the New Age Yeah, I mean right on on the on your cover, you know, you have

07:06

You know a book deceived no more Right. So I mean, it's

07:13

I think it's it's it's neat that at least people will go to the website to Define you and that something you

07:20

I never I didn't know that about the books So I did want to I was gonna ask you as a question like how long ago did you grab the the name during virtue comm because That and I should

07:32

I should put that banner up so folks can know the website to go to for you Um, you must have gotten that a long time ago.

07:38

Yeah. Yeah, I did and I never used it The website used to be called angel therapy comm because that was

07:44

I was known as the angel lady I wasn't teaching angels biblically, but I thought that I was communicating with angels from God and So that was really famous for these cards that were mimicked after To row cards, but they had all angels on them and so -called positive messages

08:02

But they all failed terribly the test of the Spirit that John gives us in first John for one

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Because none of my work pointed people to the real Jesus to a biblically solid

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Church or to Bible study It all pointed to people to themselves because that's what the New Age does.

08:20

It's all about Glorifying the selves it's the New Age Kind of the catch -all for it is that it's a desire for power and control

08:29

It's not knowing God so you don't trust God. So you're you think you're on your own to try to make things happen

08:36

You want to predict the future you want to control the future and the New Age is happy to give you gimmicks for a price

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To try to do that. So you take lots of classes you get lots of certifications and read lots of books

08:49

Go to lots of seminars and they teach you things like using your thoughts to create your reality visualization crystals astrology divination past life regression hypnosis

09:02

All sort even oils and crystals you use and it's all in this desire to be your own

09:08

Lowercase G God, it's very Genesis 3 And Just because she mentioned angels and how does

09:20

Angels play into New Age thought because people typically when they think of angels surely they would think

09:29

Bible God So, how does that? Fit together in New Age.

09:34

Well New Age has a lot of if you will denominations And so there are people who would reject in the

09:41

New Age the idea of angels all together I was more I was more similar to Chris Vallotton of Bethel Redding Than I was to some of the occultic artists in the

09:52

New Ages and because I was I Thought I was a

09:57

Christian being raised Christian scientist. We went to church twice a week We read the KJV only

10:03

Bible my whole life So I I thought I was blending Christian science

10:09

Christianity really with New Age practices like psychic readings and mediumship and divination and I thought that as long as you were being positive and You were being helpful that God would approve of it.

10:23

I had no idea till I finally read Deuteronomy 18 10 through 12 that I learned

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I was actually a Detestable abomination to God for doing these things so the people in my workshops tended to be women who had come out of Evangelical Protestant churches and Roman Catholicism even

10:43

Mormonism and they had come to New Age With people like me because it seemed biblical because we were using the names

10:51

Angels and we were even saying God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus in my workshops But it was not biblical at all and there was no gospel is the most important thing it was all this self works false gospel

11:05

Yeah. Yeah it there was You mentioning that you grew up? Christian science it made me think of there's a singer.

11:15

His name is Miles Kennedy And if anyone who's familiar with like the band

11:21

Guns and Roses and things like that from the 80s He kind of partnered with the guitarist slash and they kind of do the same thing but Miles Kennedy grew up Christian science and His dad got really sick with cancer and ended up dying but he was taught that the teaching is you don't go to doctors

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No pray for healing and everything. Well when his dad didn't get healed He became atheists altogether.

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And now if you listen to a lot of the songs that he writes They're very anti God I mean,

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I mean they're against God and and he's super super talented And I always just said to myself if I had ever had the opportunity to meet him

12:04

I want to be able to sit down and talk with him about because I've heard he's just the nicest guy ever

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But I would love to be able to sit down with him and say hey what you were in Was not

12:15

Christian and it wasn't science either No, and you never hear the gospel in the Christian Science Church at all you hear cherry -picked

12:23

Bible vs King James version only and I I still read the King James occasionally, but having that as your only

12:31

Translation. It was a stumbling block for me for the Elizabethan language For instance, we grew up knowing the

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Bible said you can't do necromancy, but no one explained what necromancy was to me It was an archaic word and when

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I realized that I was doing it as a medium later I was floored. I literally did not know

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I was violating that part of the Bible You know, and I should say if people do want to hear a little bit more of your testimony

12:58

I had you on my rap report podcast some time ago. So if you'll go to rap report org

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Wrap with two P's so rap report org and just do a search for Doreen's name

13:10

You'll you'll find that interview and I was recently on your show where I gave my test Recorded it a while ago, but I'm the slowest editor in the world.

13:21

So I I put up a video about the cards at Bethel It took me four years to put to edit the video

13:28

Wow, so so I know cuz I Okay, so folks if there's anyone who is really good video editor and would like to volunteer and donate some time to Doreen Go to Doreen virtue

13:41

And help her out Yeah, that'd be nice I'm doing it single -handedly on an iPad right now and it's it's a time -consuming

13:51

Yes, I have time. I would I would do it for you But now

13:56

I just have zero time because I used because you know, you and I have a mutual friend and Dave Jenkins Oh, wow.

14:03

He just texted. I want to ask him to come see us. Yeah, and I used to do some editing for some of the stuff he did.

14:11

Oh and But now I have he texted me the other day and said hey,

14:16

I need your help with some podcasts and I'm like No, I can barely do this one.

14:22

I hear you Okay, well, mr. Hap's Addison says

14:27

Doreen is of he must have met you if if you've met haps You'd recognize him.

14:33

He's yeah, and he's got a long white beard and he talks all gruffy And maybe we met at g3.

14:39

I met quite a few people there last year. Yeah, so and this from a

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Listener from the Philippines. She says I love reading listening to people's testimonies

14:51

Well, we'll go seek out Doreen. So good you you know It really

14:56

I was very impressed with your background what God ended up doing in your life Yeah, so so let's start off for folks who may be

15:06

Completely ignorant of new age as the case of the the person who contacted us and asked for this to be a topic

15:13

Would you be able to define? What is the new age movement?

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And you mentioned the like that there's denominations within it and this is a thing like that was new to me

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I didn't realize I should have thought about it because just like with on every group there becomes different fractions

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Divisions so I shouldn't have been surprised Everyone's especially when people are trying to build platforms for themselves.

15:39

Of course, there's going to be division So so what let's start up. What is the new age when people say new age?

15:47

What's the new age movement? What how how did this start and how is it worked into what it is today?

15:53

Okay. Well, I mean it started with the devil, but a lot of it came through Phineas Quimby who in the 1800s

15:59

Decided that he wanted to teach a combination of what was called mesmerism back then hypnosis to heal people it was all about let's physically heal people and his his students the the tentacles of his students went out to Mary Baker Eddie And the the

16:19

Fillmore's the people who created all of the new thought churches were his students and then also there's another branch that went off into Madame Blavatsky and the

16:28

Theosophists and then AW Kenyon is in there too to go up to word of faith

16:34

So this one man kind of begat all this deception And of course, we know that the father of lies was behind him and you can see that You can even see

16:45

Alistair Crowley and Satanism coming out of this lineage and the all of it is

16:52

Genesis 3 did God really say that and you could be your own God you could have the wisdom of God So it's this desire to it to be in control you you want to be the one who creates and You want to tell

17:07

God what to do? So decreeing and declaring is a part of that Joel Osteen teaching that your thoughts are

17:14

Can create your reality is identical to what you see with your Abraham Hicks and your

17:20

Louise Hey, and your Deepak Chopra in the New Age saying your thoughts create your reality It's all the same thing.

17:26

You even see that at Bethel Reading and and all of it is self glory

17:32

Instead of glorifying God, which is the purpose of Christianity So if this person who wrote to you their loved one is dabbling a new age

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Typically what happens and this is why there's so many Factions and so many denominations is people will start out with something that seems really innocent

17:48

The number one way people get into the New Age is through yoga and I get so much pushback on this

17:54

But I don't care because I can back this up. I have receipts and The yoga is the word is

18:01

Sanskrit for yoke, which means bind and it's

18:06

Being bound to the Hindu deity Brahma or Shiva and each of the poses or asanas of yoga

18:14

They each glorify or mimic the characteristics of one of the 330 million

18:19

Hindu deities and This was popularized by the Beatles and a man named

18:24

Yogananda who came to the West and brought the the Indian Hinduism here

18:31

The thing is I did yoga almost every day for over 20 years. It does seem to feel good

18:36

It does seem to relax you It does seem to tone your arms and and give you weight loss and it's a good social hour and such

18:44

It seems pleasant. But most yoga studios are filled with idols statues of Hindu and Buddhist deities and they also use blasphemous

18:55

Sanskrit prayers like namaste I think everyone's heard of that and om and those are both prayers to the universe in blasphemous ways.

19:05

So Then people will say well what about Christian yoga or holy yoga and I always say well

19:12

You're using the same poses even though they're named different things and then they say well what about first Corinthians 10 where Paul said that the meat that was prayed over by the idols could be

19:23

Redeemed and the truth is that the yoga is not analogous to the meat being redeemed

19:29

The yoga is analogous to the prayers and even the pagan temple of first Corinthians 10

19:35

It absolutely cannot be redeemed stretching is fine. I stretch every day. It's good for us

19:40

It helps me to sleep most people like stretching but the specific Poses like the

19:46

Sun Salutation in particular the warrior pose each one of these poses I have a video showing which

19:52

Hindu deity you are mimicking with each pose No Christian woman or man should be doing yoga

19:59

Even if it's called praise moves holy yoga gospel yoga Christian yoga It's like taking a

20:05

Ouija board and trying to put Bible verses on it and say it's redeemed It is literally irredeemable

20:11

And if people don't believe me come to my youtube channel and I'll show you videos by an ex Hindu Brahman Who had a yoga studio in his house growing up and he will point you to the ancient

20:22

Vedic Records of Hinduism to show how it is a Hindu worship practice

20:28

And so most people kind of go in like, you know, Goldilocks or was it the

20:33

Goldilocks? It was Hansel and Gretel. They followed the little breadcrumb trails. Yes to the witch.

20:39

Yeah, right So so the yoga leads to darker and darker things

20:44

So you start out with yoga and then for me I got involved with worship literally praying to in worshipping

20:50

Hindu Goddesses I had statues all over my house through doing yoga and then a lot of yoga studios will take you on guided

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Meditations in the last pose of the day called shavasana or the corpse pose

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The dead person pose and they take you to meet your spirit guide who's got a gift for you

21:09

I mean, it's it's it puts you into a trance state and then you can see the tentacles of new age going into the church

21:17

Through this I just got a letter today you guys from a woman who's at a otherwise biblically solid church where they go exegetical line by line through the

21:27

Bible, but the pastor has started introducing mystical monasticism into the church the

21:33

Contemplative practices that you see Richard Rohrer pushing and Bethel pushing where you're supposed to meditate

21:40

Not on scripture like Psalm 1 and Joshua 1 say which is Haggai right in Hebrew And that means mutter or utter out loud the scripture these this pastor is

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Guiding the congregants to imagine they're meeting Jesus. And what is he saying to you?

21:57

How dangerous how dangerous is that? She she's gonna try talking to the pastor, but she was probably gonna have to change churches

22:04

We're seeing this at an alarming rate this contemplative practice. It's called mindfulness

22:10

Mindfulness where you're supposed to check this out mindfulness practices which are being purported to be

22:15

Christian But came through Jon Kabat -Zinn. Who's a Hindu Buddhist? neuro link neuro

22:22

Scientists from Harvard and he popularized this and put it into regular

22:27

Western medical doctor's offices in hospitals Mindfulness is the practice of observing your thoughts without judgment

22:36

You're just supposed to if what does that Bible say about your thoughts Captive yeah, exactly and you're supposed to repent for a lot of your thoughts because they're sinful

22:46

I mean, what did our Lord and Savior say in the Sermon on the Mount? About thoughts. Well, this practice is going into the church.

22:53

It's outrageous Yeah, I mean this was this was the same thing and just to loop back for folks who listen regularly if you remember back

23:02

With the gentleman who wanted to come in here and debate me on Affirming Christianity, but he doesn't want to talk about what those that remember.

23:12

He doesn't want to talk about lust He doesn't want to talk about the thought life Because he wants to say that that is is just not a sin

23:20

It's as long as he can cuddle with his boyfriend and not actually consummate it then it's not a sin

23:26

Well, as long as you ignore the thought life which the scripture speaks highly about then, okay, maybe but Unfortunately, you can't say that it's biblical.

23:36

So it's the same thing It's like people want to ignore the thought life which the scripture speaks so much about You know

23:43

John Owen in his work. I can't remember which volume but it's the one that has

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The mortification of sin, you know the section in there called on temptation and he talks about taking captive the mind the thoughts of the mind because if the sinful thought gets control of the mind

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Even before the action is come is is performed. You've already sinned

24:13

So even just by thinking about the action, how can I complete this action?

24:18

You know all the things that just go along with a thought process if you even allow it into your mind

24:25

You've already committed. You're already guilty of it So let's let's dig in you gave a lot.

24:32

I want to dig into some stuff We did a theology throwdown where we talked about things like yoga and I know that some of the listeners who heard that podcast that We do it from the

24:43

Christian podcast community We had differing views I will admit that with yoga,

24:48

I I'm pretty ignorant of it you've I may end up changing the views of what

24:55

I said on that show because you know, But I had said like karate had a very mystical

25:01

You know karate at least in in some of the Asian countries had more of a

25:07

Meditation to it and more religious component to it. And as it came to America, it really was just a defense

25:15

But and I I had thought yoga very similar in a similar vein where it was it was stretching with that but I but I've Hence learned from you

25:27

Watching some of your stuff that it's it's not as innocent as that. No You're not stretching.

25:34

I mean you there's an instructor coming over every two minutes to Correct your positions if it was just stretching there'd be no person correcting you you just do what comes natural and You're acting out like okay the warrior pose

25:50

Virabhadrasana, that's that asana means pose. You're doing the pose of Virabhadras and Virabhadras was in Hindu mythology

26:00

I don't believe they actually exist, but I do believe there's demons who can masquerade as these deities and by the and Regardless, you're glorifying them.

26:09

So Virabhadras He was a murderer and so with the Virabhadras warrior one two, and three the reason your arms are out perfectly

26:18

Perpendicular is you're mimicking a murder scene from Revenge for Shiva's son.

26:24

So how is that glorifying our one true God when the Bible exhorts us with everything we do everything

26:30

To glorify God that's glorifying Shiva Yeah you so a couple years ago

26:40

There were some people that I was friends with on Facebook and I knew them from when I was in the charismatic movement

26:47

When I went to a vineyard church and the late I used to play guitar with her husband, but the wife

26:53

She started basically a Christian yoga practice business and I shared one of your posts that was fully in -depth

27:04

As they always are and I love them and I shared it and she didn't say anything.

27:10

She just unfriended me Yeah, people don't like their idols criticized You make a great point here because People think oh, well, it's just stretching and then they can meet offer titles.

27:24

I have never thought about That you're not it's not the meat compared to idols.

27:31

You're offering prayers in these poses That's right. It's changes the game. Yeah, that's totally the prayers.

27:37

Yeah, Paul never said the prayers could be redeemed He just said the meat could um, and and so the other part is that we're it violates the first two commandments when we do yoga

27:46

We're to have no other gods before us and we're have no graven images Check it out. If people don't believe me go compare a picture of the yoga pose called

27:56

Lord of the dance With a picture of shiva and they're identical you're making your body to look just like a statue of shiva with lord of the dance

28:04

And so you're making your body a graven image at that point Yeah, I it's just irredeemable.

28:11

I mean i'm not trying to spoil people's fun. I love doing yoga I thought it was great. I had better toned arms than I do now

28:20

But I wouldn't I threw away all my yoga mats my yoga gear I would never ever Do yoga ever again from what i've learned because I care too much about glorifying god

28:30

And I pray that anyone is listening. They have ears to hear this Yeah, so let's Comment melissa has is there are so many churches that offer yoga classes for women

28:40

And and so whenever this whenever this comes up, I always feel obligated to to give this disclaimer.

28:45

Okay uh, and during you this this may be new uh news to you, but uh, so I Last church

28:53

I was at when I lived in new jersey, uh, the pastor of the church He he and his wife met, uh on the mission field in india

29:02

Uh, they they got they're actually both from new jersey, but they they met in india So, um, but they had they came back stateside

29:11

She was teaching holy yoga And he actually got on the board at holy yoga

29:19

And so he he viewed it from a an opportunity of using yoga as a means of evangelism

29:25

And they were trying to you know that his wife would redeem it now. It is interesting he got on there and one of the first things he did was uh,

29:34

Well, they removed all the unsaved board members and required that all Instructors had to be christian because they had lesbians who were leading who were doing teaching these classes

29:44

I'm saying this to say that when people think like holy yoga, that's good because it's christian based. I want you to realize

29:51

Behind the scenes it wasn't good Uh, he tried a lot to make changes that would be at least more biblical

29:58

Uh, he and I disagreed on the on this I I didn't think that his wife should be doing that nor should he be on the board and but you know

30:04

I respected him for trying to say. Okay, if it's going to say it's christian ministry, let's try to make this follow

30:11

What a christian ministry should be uh, however What ended up happening though is holy yoga is a major money maker to the point where?

30:21

The government came in and said this is not a non -profit You're selling classes and things like so the the government required that holy yoga separate their for -profit from their non -profit and it came down to the decision of whether as as my pastor had said that the

30:40

Non -profit had to be over the for -profit for the accountability and control

30:46

The end result is the reverse the founder of holy yoga Wanted the control and put the for -profit business over the non -profit

30:56

So that she wouldn't have the the board having to tell her what to do with the money Aspect and he at that moment resigned from the board

31:04

So it it's now I think without someone like him on there and with the moves that they've made when when churches bring this in Realize that this is the the person who runs this is a woman who has no discernment

31:19

She had to have a pastor come in to say no you if you're going to do a ministry You actually have to have believers doing it like That wasn't something she was doing and and now you know that she's not looking this is no longer a ministry.

31:32

It's it's money making So I I always feel like I have because people who who may know

31:38

That my pastor was on that board. I whenever yoga comes up. I always feel like I have to explain this. Yeah, it's a great story

31:44

I don't want people to think like hey, we disagreed on it. I don't want people to think that oh you because i've had people Say, oh well you you went to church where the pastor was on the board of holy yoga and his wife was it?

31:54

Yeah, it's true and You know, but that doesn't mean I was in line with it It doesn't mean we had and and I at least respect what he was trying to do with it but It like you're saying you can't redeem the yoga.

32:08

Well, you even more you can't redeem the holy yoga. Yeah Have no fellowship with darkness

32:15

What was that true I said don't mess with my money andrew. Yeah. Yeah So, you know,

32:20

I saw a comment. I think it was by fatima earlier she said so basically

32:27

Uh new age is everywhere You know and doreen you mentioned where's that where's the comment put it up Oh, it's you look for that one

32:35

I'll put some of these others that I started first off haps said that he did meet you at g3. Oh, hi Yes, I remember.

32:41

Um, here it is. Here it is. Okay I'll You put it up. Okay. It says uh, oh doreen.

32:49

In other words, the new age is just everywhere. It's terrible I we just did an episode of my podcast keep in mind when she's saying this doreen

32:57

Uh fatima is from the philippines This is the other side of the world. Yeah, so when she's saying it's everywhere.

33:03

Well if it's here and there It literally is everywhere. Yeah, I feel bad because I toured for over 20 years around the world giving new age

33:11

Heretical blasphemous workshops and I can actually see the ripple effects of some of my old teachings um now and so it's one of the reasons i've worked tirelessly to warn people about this because I was so deceived and Naive to because I was biblically illiterate.

33:29

I mean that was the bottom line And so I used to tour, uh to asia And teach there and yeah,

33:37

I my on my podcast new age to new heart um, my my co -hosts and I we recently went to various stores and took videos of the new age items being

33:47

Sold and and my part was I went to hobby lobby, which is a professing christian store

33:52

And I was very sad to see in their jewelry section how much new age symbolism jewelry they're selling at hobby lobby and and also dream catchers, which seem like beautiful wall hangings, but What the new age does is it it it appropriates from various cultures and even from various religions

34:12

And then it puts a spin on it and calls it new age and dream catchers Of course is from native american shamanism and the belief is that if you put one on your wall

34:22

That it will catch the bad dreams and the demons from your dreams And I have no idea why you'd want something on your wall that would be catching demons and bad dreams

34:31

But nonetheless they sell this at hobby lobby They have a whole in -cap display on it.

34:36

And then they also sell crystal Points now it gets confusing for christian women because as we know there's crystals in the bible from genesis to revelation

34:48

But the way that the new age uses crystals is idolatrous they say that crystals have magical special powers

34:55

Apart from god who made them and that each crystal has a different divination meaning and healing purpose

35:02

And these crystal points that people wear on their necklace are designed to Open you up to be more psychic

35:11

And I was horrified to find that so many of these were being sold at hobby lobby

35:17

And even the names on them was was very new age. I think that people are just naive to this

35:23

So i'm trying to warn them. I I would love to talk with the buyer at hobby lobby and kind of Give her a heads up that.

35:31

Hey, you are actually opening doorways to demons by putting these in your store for naive

35:37

Professing christians who are shopping there Yeah, I had an experience with when my daughter first went to Cedarville university and I walked through and this is going to be sun.

35:48

I know we could we could talk about it as well is uh the the book jesus calling and how

35:55

And I saw that prominently displayed in the bookstore and I well

36:01

I I you know immediately went and asked for the manager of the bookstore And I said do you are you aware that this is a demonic book?

36:10

And she said it's not demonic and I pulled one off the the shelf and I just opened her the introduction

36:16

I say look She's saying that she didn't write this She just she just closed her eyes and a spirit took over and wrote this

36:23

And then I start just flipping through to some of the unbiblical things that are interesting So if if she's saying a spirit wrote this

36:29

And this is not lining with the bible. It's demonic like you got You got to remove this and she she was like, we're not going to remove it

36:37

Now unfortunately for her I happen to know the president of cedarville so I Emailed thomas and i'm like thomas.

36:44

Do you know that this is in the in the thing? He's like no And it was gone right away. Oh, praise the lord.

36:50

I love your boldness. Thank you But you you know people are unaware. I was on a flight with um, you know, just I forget who

36:59

I was traveling to but the This woman next to me Claimed to be a christian

37:05

And I it was it was one of those things where she's got stickers all over her her Her laptop and one of them is truth matters and I was like, oh, okay you know now

37:15

I don't know if it was the truth matters conference or but I end up talking to her. She claims to be a christian

37:21

And then she pulled out jesus calling And so I did the same thing with her. I I I said, you know,

37:27

I I showed her You know, like this is what she says how she got the the book came to her and then

37:32

I pointed out how You know Some of the things in there and she was flabbergasted yeah, and and so She ended up like realized like I gotta put this away and I I think there is an ignorance

37:46

And this is why I think what you're doing and let me read some of the comments So you realize what what people are saying about you and your ministry?

37:54

Um, and i'm not sure Who this person is it's I haven't seen this person comment before Um xavi or light but says sister d has been doing so much in helping so many

38:06

Come out of new age. It's amazing work Uh, fatima says very comprehensive explanations

38:13

You can tell doreen's been uh through a lot of counter arguments since rejecting new age and embrace

38:21

I think i've heard all the pushback. Yeah. Yeah Um Kathy deming is saying mindfulness, which you're just talking about they teach it in public schools

38:32

Melissa says here that i'm so graceful grateful for doreen virtue and her ministry. Thank you melissa

38:38

And so right back at you A question that fatima had for you is I have a question since doreen mentioned mysticism

38:46

Is it unbiblical to say that jesus was a mystic? Completely blasphemous to say that Um, although I hear from people who say blasphemy about jesus and they want to um

38:57

They want to justify their new age practices because they they tell me stories that oh jesus was a reiki master

39:04

Therefore I can do reiki jesus Uh, he he he learned how to do levitation and mysticism

39:12

In india, he did yoga in india. I mean they have all these stories about the so -called lost years between jesus in the temple and his baptism and Not I mean, it's just coming from the devil.

39:24

It's not truth so a mystic is someone who goes into an altered state of consciousness and gets

39:31

These messages that absolutely do not corroborate with the bible sarah young would be an example of a mystic that wrote those

39:39

Blasphemous jesus calling books that should be burned. Those books are just So bad,

39:45

I mean, that's how I wrote. My old new age books was through trance Automatic writing like she did by the way, that's how the any types of the enneagram were created through Claudia naranjo who was a spiritualist and and absolutely admitted

40:01

He didn't care if his messages were coming from demons or not He had he didn't care he said and he said he did automatic writing which is the process of going into a trance and just letting a spirit come through you as a channel and that's how

40:16

He came up with the nine any types of the enneagram now that's being purported to be something that is christian

40:23

Through the back story that they made up. They admitted they made up. I have it on film And I and it's on my website if people need proof

40:31

They they admitted that they made up that it came from the the desert fathers

40:36

That's what they keep saying about these practices. Oh, it's from the desert fathers. So it's okay You guys know church history, you know who the desert fathers were they these were the the mystical monks who were trying to be acidic

40:49

They were trying to isolate They they were the basis of roman catholicism in some cases, you know, you're saint avala.

40:56

You're saint teresa of avala The brother lawrence is another one who's a mystical monk

41:03

Who's being revered by our sister in christ? I'm horrified and I hope

41:08

I can talk with her someday Johnny erickson tata wrote a whole book on brother lawrence recently called practicing the presence of jesus

41:15

She based in you're right brother. Chris. It's a doctrine of demons She so johnny based her book on this old occultic book called

41:26

Of brother lawrence's called practicing the presence of god all about that you have to feel god around you and get messages from him and This is what johnny has turned to in her new book every page points to a brother lawrence message that he got supposedly from god

41:42

So it's just like jesus calling and here's johnny who is beloved by and we all feel sorry for her disability and her

41:49

Paralysis and the devil's using her and she doesn't she I don't think she knows it

41:55

And even dallas jenkins the director of that horrible show the chosen is promoting johnny's new book about brother lawrence

42:03

So there's just so much new age on a Fast moving train that we can barely keep up with it now

42:11

Yeah, well, let me bring uh, am bruster in um for folks who Are new here.

42:17

Aaron bruster is one of our speakers at striving for eternity So, uh, he always can only get he gets here late, but we appreciate he comes in now you do realize aaron

42:26

Uh before you got here everyone we were talking yoga and everyone was saying oh well aaron needs to be here to hear this so Uh, probably did

42:35

I I missed my opportunity to be convinced well Not too late. Well, maybe

42:43

Doreen has has already changed my mind on some of the things I said on on that show. We did so um, so yeah, so With this,

42:52

I mean some people are like melissa here is saying i'm glad that you brought up the roman catholicism doreen They absolutely embrace new age

42:59

I think the big thing with the new age that I mean this for me is going back 25 years 30 years ago when

43:09

I first started looking into it and noticing it is it really is it's tied very closely with secularism and That in america that is how it really made its way in it was

43:22

It was like the religion of the secularists where they could kind of pretend like it's not a religion but yet they're you know, it it is

43:32

I like they tried to get it tied into every aspect of life

43:39

And I never understood why the church like always wanted to appeal to it When it it just seems so anti It's it's so anti -christian

43:49

And but there is this allure And so you having been on both sides you you were very much involved in new age now very much teaching against it

44:00

What do you think is the allure for churches? To bring this stuff in.

44:05

I mean we like we talked earlier. They that they we see it being brought in through through the yoga through you know crystals through things that It seems innocent, right?

44:17

But yet it's it's the kind of the gateway drug for for new age very well and so never thought of it before I just just thought of that but but it's

44:27

I I just that's what it seems to me to be but Why do you think it is that the church seems to like?

44:34

Lack the discernment and I think I think it was chris honholds. I think we had it up here who said yeah says, uh,

44:42

The lack of discernment is a massive issue for the professing church So we know this is the problem ultimately is like a discernment but why do you think that the church seems to be wanting to to tie itself to the new age and bring it in to the church, right because I think

44:58

Churches don't typically do that with like mormonism or jehovah witnesses. They recognize that as a false religion, but new age

45:07

Somehow they bring that in and try to mix it. Yeah, they do. I mean all I can think of is the in the end

45:12

We will be lovers of self because that's what the new age is lovers of self. It really comes down to that It's wanting to please man rather than god

45:21

And and so we need watchmen on the wall who really know the bible who say who are bold enough to say no

45:28

To this encroachment. I mean, we've got little old christian church ladies selling

45:34

Young living essential oils at church to make a few extra dollars. Well young living is a company.

45:40

That's mormon First of all, it's an mlm based in utah and and they they have tried to pretend that they're christian they sell this

45:48

This bunch of oils called oils of the bible So they have you know hyssop oil and they have different oils that the bible does show oils for healing

45:58

They're not essential oils or distilled oils But nonetheless the god made the plants that made them and so they they try to say we're christian wink wink

46:06

But on the other hand they use a lot of new age marketing as well They they say okay.

46:11

What's your astrological sign? And according to your astrological sign you should use this oil and what's your vibration?

46:18

You should use this oil and I think one of the most outrageous things that young living does that comes under the door of the churches is they sell

46:25

A little bottle of oil that's fifty dollars That's called abundance And they market it that if you use this oil you will attract money

46:35

And that is a witchcraft spell that is witchcraft If you go on etsy, which

46:40

I don't recommend believe me on this if you go on etsy and type in oil to get money You will see the exact thing.

46:47

There's oil sold on etsy to buy witches. They don't even try to hide it That will attract money and yet little old ladies are selling this in churches

46:56

And it becomes idolatrous and people are so confused because they say well there's oils in the bible and And margaret's selling it margaret wouldn't do anything wrong.

47:04

She's the pastor's wife But yeah, she she's just not aware Because discernment comes through bible study

47:11

That's what we learn in the bible and most people unfortunately are not reading their bible or the whole bible or every day reading their bible

47:19

You you must know what god said and then we've got to fear god, don't we?

47:25

I mean because a little leaven will what will it do to the whole lump? I mean it just we're seeing just a little bit of poison come in and we're seeing it in subtle ways

47:35

And it reminds me of balaam who wanted to curse the israelites, but he couldn't right god wouldn't let him

47:42

So what did he do? He snuck in midianite women And so we're seeing the devil sneaking in the equivalent of midianite women with contemplative prayer with yoga

47:52

With these essential oils being sold by margaret the pastor's wife and it just it just an enneagram

47:58

It just opens up this doorway where you want it's insatiable Once you get into the new age you want more and more and more

48:05

It's literally the breadcrumb trail of hansel and gretel where it's you never get enough you the new age promises you

48:14

Health it promises you wealth soulmate life purpose You name it, but it always says you have to buy one more product or one more book or take one more class

48:24

Then you'll get there You know, it's interesting. It's a false gospel. Yeah, and I know iron's got some thoughts i'm sure but Uh, you brought balaam and people don't realize if you read numbers 22 23 24

48:38

You walk away from that thinking balaam is a godly person. He struggled a little but he's godly.

48:44

He he didn't disobey god okay, and then you read chapter 25 and you see that the the

48:51

Jewish men Saw the the women and then god cursed them

48:57

But when you read the rest of the bible you find out that it was balaam who counseled

49:04

The king balak to do that. That's right. That was the counsel of balaam that is condemned in jude

49:09

It's the idea. He wanted the money. He wanted to seem spiritual He wanted to be you know on god's side, but he

49:18

Wanted what the king was offering and when the king was like you didn't curse them like I wanted he said well, you know

49:25

The the we see that he's the one that's credited with giving balak the counsel That ends up getting god to curse them.

49:33

So he could he wouldn't do it himself, but he tells him here Here's how you can get god to do it for you so aaron,

49:40

I know you came in late, but I know you you have Uh, we we talked about yoga. We mentioned some of our crystals, uh, essential oil

49:48

I saw you you met comment about that, but I know you have some thoughts on this Yeah, so first of all doreen, sorry i'm just coming in here at the end i'm loving a lot of what you're saying

49:59

Uh, I posted a link. I shared a link with you in the private chat andrew because I still can't get links. Uh here in the comments um

50:07

The association of certified biblical counselors has a number of great resources. You can go to their website

50:13

I think I gave andrew to share with you guys We'll take you to their their search page for enneagram and they have a lot of fantastic podcast episodes and articles on there about the origins of the enneagram and how

50:26

You know and how really everything you're saying during it's not valuable. It's not even scientific It's not helpful.

50:32

It's not something that's going that the church needs to be embracing So that's the first observation that I wanted to make.

50:40

Thank you for those points I will make i'll make the observation for folks to recognize that At least three of us are in the light

50:48

One of us is in darkness that's aaron there and I have terrible lighting in this room man, leave me alone

50:55

Um The uh, so i'm throwing that out there Uh, just something uh for you guys to check out if you're interested in learning a little bit more about it

51:02

And how as a biblical counselor, you know, it it's really easy to want to embrace a tool like that Especially when it's marketed within the church and embrace so much by the church folks, uh

51:13

Just in case I forget to put in the show notes if you just go to biblicalcounseling .com Biblicalcounseling .com

51:21

and just do a search for enneagram and if you don't know how to spell it's it's e n n e a g r a m so that you just put that into the search engine if you want if you're

51:34

Can't find the search engine biblicalcounseling .com slash question mark s equal enneagram

51:40

Yep And uh, yeah, so check that out again just because it's a very important for us I mean we're talking about discernment we're talking about having knowledge and being wise you can't

51:49

Live wisely if you don't have the knowledge and if you don't understand the knowledge, those are those are prerequisites to wisdom um, so I want to say that um,

51:58

I also uh I don't want to come in and uh and kick kick the door up and this isn't a theology throwdown

52:08

Um, but this is I think an opportunity just to just present some some

52:14

Not not disagreements. Okay. I want I want to agree fundamentally with what you're saying. Um, I well actually, okay.

52:20

Let me take a step back because I just remembered the second thing I was going to say. There we go I'm, i'm re -evaluating Um, how has this gotten into the church?

52:27

I'll tell you how this has gotten into church There is a form of uh of christianity I mean not a form of christianity, but it's it's a more idea set idea that's called christian mysticism um

52:38

Now some of you who aren't familiar with that term, you might be like whoa christian mysticism. That sounds bad

52:44

It's really not generally considered a bad thing even among protestant evangelicals

52:50

Um aw tozer is considered a christian mystic and the christian mystics are the ones who

52:58

Um, they they're the ones who are more prone to talk about You know and god led me to do this.

53:04

He told me to do this They don't they're not saying that they're hearing a voice from god like charismatics and pentecostals do but they are

53:12

Um, they are being a little bit more Um forthright about being clear that you know,

53:18

I I felt peace from god about this That's the that's the mystical side of the christian mysticism and that Concept whether they would call themselves christian mystics or not that concept is pervading the evangelical church in america

53:34

This this god told me and and stuff like that and we've we've talked about this a little bit on different shows uh, this idea that you know people in the past pagans and whatnot have gone to Soothsayers and crystal ball readers and whatever else because we realize that we've got no grasp on our reality

53:51

No, no control over our world. And so we want an extra natural source to tell us um

54:00

That we can know that that this is going to happen and that we'll have good crops and so on and so forth And that desires in all people to want to know that and when there's a christian version of that Where someone can go to you and says god told me that he wants you to be a missionary in africa

54:15

Or to marry this person or whatever the case may be We're like, oh, I love that.

54:21

So christian mysticism a more Unhinged version of it is taking over the professing church

54:27

And because there is so much in common between this idea and the new age movement

54:33

Um, it's super easy for those ideas to be embraced because as doreen pointed out

54:40

So much of this new age philosophy and enneagram stuff. There is a huge overlap there now, please understand

54:46

I'm, not saying that christian mystics self -professing christian mystics people who would specifically use that term

54:52

Are new agers i'm not saying they're charismatics Um, i'm just saying that really

54:59

What was that unless it's david crowder? Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I was saying though.

55:04

That's really easy You know We we do have some comments like your new age seems to be very similar in attraction to tongues prophecy, etc

55:13

Yeah, there are no people mentioning it does seem to be an overlap there and I was going to ask that of doreen Yeah, it's a huge overlap.

55:20

Yeah Yeah, well again the same tentacles coming through phineas quimby and aw canyon as coming through madame blavatsky who's considered the mother of new age through theosophy

55:32

So yeah, the I mean what I always say is that of course That all scripture is god -breathed but all deception is devil -breathed.

55:41

So it's the same author and the same signature So you're going to see a lot of similarities there Yeah, and then that dissociation

55:48

Uh speaking in tongues is a dissociative act and so is giving a psychic reading so is doing yoga so is any kind of mysticism where you're

55:58

Kind of not aware of your physical surroundings and I I was involved with hypnotism and past life regressions as a new age teacher and what can happen is if you

56:11

If you become ungrounded like that Then I do believe that the devil masquerading as an angel of light will take advantage of people who are asking for messages

56:20

The devil's happy to with his fallen angels is happy to oblige and say here's a message

56:25

And then if you don't test the spirits if you don't compare them to scripture, you are going to go off the rails very easily and sadly

56:33

Yeah so um before you know It would be good.

56:38

I think some folks would would I think aaron maybe you were going to bring up the yoga Because you you do have differing views.

56:44

It might be good to have a discussion with with you with I was gonna avoid the yoga

56:50

Only at this point because I know that a lot of us and I don't mind getting to it But there's a there's a couple other points i'd be interested to talk about and that would be new to our audience.

56:58

Yeah, so Well before you do right now now might be because I I know you're in a rush and we know why

57:05

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57:21

I had a cup of wisdom Now that isn't like the new age stuff. We were talking about. It's just the way he names his his

57:27

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59:23

Which i'm going to do tonight. Yes. Yes, but yours probably unless you you stole it back from your wife

59:30

Won't be a my pillow because she took the my pillow we sent you No, no I I bought her one and then after after she got hers

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59:57

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01:00:55

So aaron, what was the other topics you wanted to bring up there then? Okay So this is where I was actually

01:01:01

I was stumbling all over myself earlier because I saw myself just jumping into the lion's den um, which i'm really glad because I I Have never seen you stumble over words before so I think that was great

01:01:13

I think I may just have to clip that out because that would be a new intro for for you know, but then i'm also looking

01:01:20

Oh, you know what doreen taught me something and i'm wrong and I have to change my views, you know, it's very possible

01:01:27

I've already admitted that my views changed because of her so oh, there you go. Good. Good. Good. Um so the new age concepts, right, um where we are uh

01:01:42

Looking to anything other than god for guidance direction power Where basically we're worshiping anything outside of him is idolatry.

01:01:51

It's completely sinful and it's wicked. All right I can put that out there very clear right off the bat

01:01:57

Everything we do needs to be done 100 for the honor and glory of god needs to align with scripture

01:02:03

I think sometimes what we get in trouble though is there is a A desire not a desire, but there is the accidental

01:02:12

I'm just going to it's cliche, but there's sometimes the throwing out the baby with the bath water Now i'm not saying that doreen or anyone else here is doing that i'm saying this happens quite often and the example that i'm going to use is going to be

01:02:27

Just because doreen mentioned it since i've been on here is just going to go with the essential oils now, I I think doreen you probably would acknowledge

01:02:34

I think you even Maybe you said something to this effect that essential oils do actually have

01:02:41

A medicinal benefit would you agree? Yes. Yes. Yeah, I actually use essential oils every day

01:02:47

There's nothing they they're spiritually neutral It's yes, it's like crystals are spiritually neutral and god made the flowers and the plants

01:02:54

I use essential oil for cleaning I make my own skin care with them And uh, the fragrance is wonderful But when

01:03:01

I if I would buy a bottle that would say abundance and then say i'm going to get money because of the

01:03:07

Diffuser putting this oil in my house. That's when it crosses over to idolatry And occultism sorcery witchcraft

01:03:16

Yep, and I and I completely agree with that 100. I love the way you stated that here's here's my concern um, and not really so much with the essential oils, so My family has uh has engaged in what is generally referred to as alternative medicine

01:03:29

What's funny is that in the 6 000 years of human existence? It was anything but alternative, right?

01:03:35

What we call traditional medicine really isn't um, we were utilizing homeopathy, um,

01:03:42

Back when christians were saying it was it was bottled demons. I mean there was some huge massive pushback early on Yep Yep, um, but we were using it because it it scientifically it had the ability to to make people better and it was it's been fantastic my my uncle has um, and Really?

01:04:03

He was one of the first ones who kind of they came to the place where he had multiple strains of hepatitis He was a missionary and um, and basically the doctor said we can't do anything for you

01:04:12

Cannot be healed from this and as a last -ditch attempt they turned to homeopathy by god's grace He was completely healed from it he goes back to the doctor they retest him the doctor

01:04:22

Cannot find any signs of hepatitis in him But the moment that he heard how the how my uncle went about healing himself

01:04:32

The doctor absolutely refused to believe it. He refused to accept his own uh his own test results because he was so incredibly, um, just against the whole concept of homeopathy

01:04:44

And and so thankfully, you know, you can buy homeopathic remedies and walmart now and things like that It's definitely there's that stigma is for the most part gone oils, it's for the most part gone, but Crystal therapy, um vibrational healing.

01:04:57

There's actually I forget the technical term for that is in and of itself, um an actual science it is a it is a

01:05:05

Not researchable. It's a studyable observable repeatable science that has been around for quite some time

01:05:12

The issue is and this is where I think we start to get in a little bit of trouble on one extreme of the other This is where discernment's absolutely necessary There are some people and i've encountered them.

01:05:21

I think we talked about them a little bit on the the uh, the yoga episode Mama bear apologetics.

01:05:27

I absolutely love those ladies. I love what they're doing But there are some ladies on there who have come out of witchcraft

01:05:32

And their stance is basically if witchcraft in any way shape or form likes it

01:05:37

Dresses like it talks about it. They just completely reject it In totality and i'm not against that.

01:05:43

I think uh, sometimes that's very wise. I don't ever encourage A former alcoholic to t total like i'm not going to do that, right?

01:05:51

um at the same time when some of those ladies make the stance that you know to have to try to use a crystal

01:05:57

For any type of healing or whatever the case may be that is demonic when that statement is made

01:06:02

I have to step in and I have to say well, hold on one second Yes, I could um use a crystal in some type of a demonic way, uh worshiping it trying to channel angelic energies um

01:06:16

All of that stuff that comes through wiccan and paganism and new agem Yeah, that that could definitely be something that I tried to do

01:06:23

But I could also utilize crystals the way that god created them to function in his world the way that he

01:06:32

Designed them to be used to benefit the human body all for the honor and glory of god so all i'm

01:06:39

All I would say and again i'm not saying that darine or anybody else is arguing the opposite of what i'm saying I just want to encourage people that discernment

01:06:48

Requires It's going to sound a little sketchy when I say balance Because oftentimes the people arguing for balance are people that we need to be careful of um

01:06:56

But we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water we don't want just to say, you know, just because the in the ancient orient um, they they

01:07:06

They believe the way they made their tea and the way they sold their uh, sewed their rice fields was all

01:07:12

A huge part of their religion. Therefore. We should never eat rice and drink tea We would recognize that that's ridiculous and I would just say to some people i've seen some comments in the chat

01:07:22

There's a comment. I want to bring up and see with dorian but have dream the african sheep says

01:07:27

Crystal healing vibration. Nah, bro so And i'd say research it research it from a scientific perspective

01:07:36

And then I want to mention something about the vibration too, but good during crystals can you know for folks that don't know so Crystals are usually associated with new age now

01:07:50

Was that always the case? What what are crystals? How do the new age use it and can can they be used outside of the new age's thinking

01:07:59

Okay Thank you for uh what you shared and I heard every word and so Crystals do amplify energy.

01:08:09

It's called pizzo electric. And so the laptop i'm using right now has a crystal in it A lot of quartz watches a lot of medical devices have crystals in it because it does it amplifies the energy

01:08:21

Um now i'm not aware of anywhere in the bible and i've read the bible many times but i'm i'm only saved seven years

01:08:29

So maybe you know a part in the bible i'm missing Where god used crystals for healing

01:08:34

I missed that part. Is there a chapter in verse where it says god used crystals for healing? no, the only times that crystals are

01:08:43

Mentioned, uh and with significance would be like the crystals that were used. Um on the efod

01:08:49

Crystals that were the foundation stones of new heaven new earth that type of an approach which

01:08:55

I will say Though the crystals, uh in that particular case of the efod were not used for healing

01:09:00

There is some unique significance of the crystals that were chosen for that. But yes, your point is valid as I try to understand it

01:09:08

Okay and then you mentioned the word balance and and that was just kind of stuck with me because we use that a lot in the

01:09:13

New age and and so biblically how does balance fit in with what the bible teaches? As christ was preaching on this earth, um

01:09:24

There were those who claimed that he had demons. There were those who claimed that he was um

01:09:31

Of the devil, right? There were those who thought he was just a man. There were those that you know

01:09:37

Who recognized that he was who he said he was? When I argue balance what i'm truly arguing is a biblical perspective where we don't

01:09:45

Swing to the extremes on either side of the bible so Um an example,

01:09:52

I think that we can probably let me give a different phrase that I think how I interpreted what you meant

01:09:57

Yeah, instead of using a word like balance that can get Uh, actually i'm teaching a class right now on monday nights on apologetics and debate

01:10:06

And we covered the issue of hermeneutics And the what I addressed is when we come to the bible

01:10:12

We have to we have to know and be willing to question our presuppositions our preconceived ideas

01:10:19

Things that we come to the bible with and assume it's teaching before we actually see what it is teaching because what you described sounded like that that we don't just throw something out because of some you know, for example

01:10:34

You know crystals are associated. The only time I ever heard of crystals was associated with new age.

01:10:39

So I Had a preconceived idea to reject crystals altogether same with essential oils

01:10:46

I had a preconceived idea to reject everything with the central oils right and as doreen saying well that they're just neutral Right.

01:10:54

So I think a better way I think what if i'm understanding what you're saying aaron a better way of saying it is We need to question the presuppositions before we come to that's part of discernment

01:11:04

Yeah, is that I am saying that and i'm and i'm i'm also trying really hard because I already admitted that when you moment

01:11:10

Use the word balance you're lumping yourself in with the wrong crowd at the time I was having a hard time really coming up with the the best one word to use.

01:11:17

So again as a just as a Something I think we can all uh, hopefully I think we'd all agree on right?

01:11:24

There are people who would say on one extreme Uh that to to one side that the bible is is god's word.

01:11:33

It's not god's word It's been messed up by a man so on and so forth, right? There are also people who we have found actually have found a way to go the opposite extreme um, and there's not really a really good term for those individuals, but they almost um,

01:11:49

Worship the bible to the exclusion of god now to born -again believers who understand what the bible is that seems impossible

01:11:55

But they do it and it's a scary thing And so in that in that with those extremes on opposite ends of the spectrum

01:12:01

We're recognizing that the reality the truth of what the bible truly is god's word breathed out perfect impeccable all of that Um, we recognize that for what it is and and and it's conveniently sits, uh between the extremes of both areas

01:12:15

We talked about ditches on the on either side And so all i'm uh, whether we want to talk about balance or pendulums or or ditches or whatever

01:12:21

The goal is to be biblical in the thinking and so, um The only argument i'm trying to make in regards like so for example for crystals

01:12:30

Is a person says well, you know Crystals are sinful, right? Uh, you know, we should never use them.

01:12:35

I mean, they look pretty you can have them in jewelry You can use them in technology, but otherwise they have no value Okay. Well, that's an interesting statement

01:12:43

But is that truly based in biblical reality? Does that that does that match up with the created order?

01:12:50

See, I guess I guess i'm confused with uh, and I think someone asked this question um

01:12:57

It was about crystals healing and i'll admit i'm yeah, here it is melissa said Why do we need crystals for healing as christians?

01:13:06

Uh, we seek god for healing. Well, we I would say we we we seek Doctors for healing too.

01:13:12

I mean, you know, we there's other there are things You know, I guess doreen like you mentioned, you know, there there is an element of with the the mineral oils that that can

01:13:25

Uh have a healing element to it I i'm completely ignorant of crystals.

01:13:30

So I yeah, I don't I don't recall crystals being Used for healing at all in the bible

01:13:35

But like I said, i've only read the whole bible maybe 10 times and I have a master's degree from seminary in you know

01:13:42

Biblical and theological studies. I just don't remember That crystals were used for healing but I could have missed that verse

01:13:48

So aaron if you know of something, please do contact me But but I did in the new age and my background in new age, by the way

01:13:55

I had a b .a. I have still a b .a and an m .a in in counseling psychology So I was a psychotherapist who segued through psychology into new age and and what what

01:14:06

I I wrote a book called crystal therapy in the new age that had just Charts and charts of this crystal does this healing this crystal does that healing this crystal and i've heard what you said about Not throw the baby out of the bath water go the pendulum

01:14:20

I wouldn't do that. What you might be comforted to know is that I went with my elderly parents through their

01:14:28

Their the end of their life process. I went to the doctor's offices with them. I saw them Misdiagnosed and we didn't find out until two days before my mom died.

01:14:37

I saw them overmedicated i'm not a fan of Go into that extreme of western medicine, especially since So much new age is in western medicine these days

01:14:48

I mean john kabbat -zinn put mindfulness and yoga into western medicine. They have qigong and reiki and and we know the word pharmakia in in western medicine

01:15:00

So i'm not opposed to alternative medicine Maybe you're assuming that I am because i'm now now a christian former new ager

01:15:07

I actually would rather go to a christian naturopath than a medical doctor I really would because I think that natural

01:15:15

I think that god created a lot of plants and and I think castor oil is like this gift from god that heals so many things and I also think as melissa said that god said he's the great physician.

01:15:29

I would go to him first for wisdom I I had this bad allergy And it was interesting because I had it when

01:15:35

I was in the new age and I still had it after I was saved And it was a terrible allergy where my skin would bleed from itching and I went to an acupuncturist

01:15:43

I went to a naturopath. I went to a medical doctor. I had an allergy panel test done Nobody could tell me what

01:15:49

I was allergic to so finally What a concept I went to god in prayer. I said god, please i'm desperate help me and within a minute of that prayer

01:16:00

I I I just got the wisdom that it was my razor that I was using that had nickel The metal nickel on it that that's what

01:16:08

I was allergic to so I got a non -nickel Razor and that was like six years ago.

01:16:14

I haven't had the allergy since so we go to god in prayer for wisdom and he

01:16:19

He will as you said aaron. He'll put it on our heart. He'll give it he'll illuminate scripture.

01:16:25

He'll give us wisdom About healing and I trust him. I don't trust doctors after what

01:16:30

I went through with my parents yeah, there is something with you know the

01:16:36

The way god created our body, you know we're we're like now we're kind of transferring into healing things because but there is so much of what

01:16:46

I think this this does get into new age because so much of what people think of as alternative medicine

01:16:54

Right medicine that has been done for years before modern medicine But now it's called alternative and but so much of it is seem at least seems to be tied to new age and so there's a lot of it that I was like so so my wife does a thing called reflexology

01:17:11

And I thought it was crazy. I thought it was new age. I was like, no, no, no Not bothering but I had a time where I had a sore throat that just breathing hurt

01:17:21

And after 15 minutes of her just Working on my foot it went away. So then

01:17:26

I had to figure i'm like, okay, there's I'm a scientist right? I had to dig into the science of it And I started to learn that really all it is is she's hitting nerve endings which causes blood circulation to certain parts of the body and it's just It's the blood circulation

01:17:42

I may jump in here that because what you're talking about is actually the the basis of acupuncture

01:17:48

And what we have to understand is this we've got we've got a bunch of people Pagans long time ago before they had the same research tools that we do and what they were doing is they were observing the world

01:17:58

Their observations were oftentimes very accurate. I'm going to give an example of that in just a minute Their observations were accurate but their answers as to why it worked was not these people were pantheistic

01:18:09

Okay, they believed that there were spirits in this and so on and so forth um Acupuncture actually is is very rooted in the electro um nature of the human body

01:18:21

They didn't know why their explanation of it stunk, right? But that doesn't mean that acupuncture and reflexology and points like that are have no real.

01:18:31

Uh, well That god how god designed it. It's I mean, that's it's it's blood circulation is what

01:18:39

It's other things too, but that's part of it. Yeah, that's part of it So the example I was going to give is this a lot of people in the chat are saying

01:18:45

Crystals heal crystals. Yeah, like I don't even know listen if you if you google it you're going to find a ton of of the new age

01:18:53

Stuff right? It's they've made an observation that this certain crystal is good for such and such but their explanation

01:19:00

Of why it's good Oftentimes will miss the mark. Okay, so i'm going to oversimplify this.

01:19:06

Okay, I'm going to super make this easy I don't want to take a lot of time Everything in nature vibrates it all does we all resonate everything vibrates and everything

01:19:15

So new age that is so new age. I said the same thing I can show you 10 books. I wrote in the new age to say that Yeah, but but it is and it is it is does come out of new age

01:19:23

But the reality is is that it actually is quantifiable. It is measurable and this is the this is the this is the interesting spot because up until now up until very recently we haven't necessarily been able to um to quantify to be able to measure it and just like You know again, you know just like lots of crazy ideas the sun rising.

01:19:43

How did the sun get across the sky? Well some guy in a chariot's taking it across the sky. They made the correct observation

01:19:49

But they didn't know how it worked the idea that the earth was the center of the the universe

01:19:55

They're observing but they're coming to wrong conclusions so the example I was going to use is that A healthy human heart vibrates at a certain frequency.

01:20:04

Okay? Um, there are a lot of medical devices nowadays actually that utilize Vibrations and and and and stuff like that in in the actual medical sciences because they're recognizing that it's a thing um

01:20:16

However, when you have illness when you have disease, uh in a tissue That the frequency gets off.

01:20:24

It doesn't it doesn't vibrate the way it should there's sickness. It's not working the way it should What's interesting is that a number of green stones, for example, this one right here this green stone

01:20:33

Um a lot of times in new age, they would say these are good for your heart wear them around your neck

01:20:39

Sleep with it, whatever, you know why they say, you know why they say that Aaron is because they are using the hindu chakra system

01:20:45

That's that's correct. That's green and they're matching it to it And so we're to have no fellowship with darkness.

01:20:50

The thing is that I know I I was saved at age 59 I'm 66 now and I know that I was hell bound until god stepped in there and opened my eyes and Had me read the bible and our lord and savior jesus who came to earth fully god fully man lived a sinless life

01:21:07

And was the only one capable of taking the wrath that we all deserve He died on the cross for the sins of idolatry and sorcery

01:21:15

That are so easy to get into through avenues like thinking that a chakra is green

01:21:20

And a green stone is going to heal the heart and he died for us and he took the wrath on the cross

01:21:26

For our sins of idolatry and if we don't repent and we're not abiding in christ

01:21:31

Revelation 21 and 22 says that those who are idolaters or sorcerers will not go to the new heaven

01:21:38

They'll be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. This is not something to mess around with This is something we need to fear god and we

01:21:47

We need to not try to go make these workarounds these workarounds you're talking about could be so dangerous

01:21:53

Maybe you're real rooted and grounded in scripture brother But there's people who are very vulnerable who don't know the bible who might say oh

01:22:01

The on on out on andrew's show. He said I go get a green crystal So what do they do? They go to the local metaphysical shop.

01:22:07

They buy a green crystal They start to google how to use it and and they're right down that rabbit trail.

01:22:14

That's so dark I think it's very important for me to finish My statement and I I do really appreciate everything that you said because you're right idolatry

01:22:22

Is 100 of sin, but this is where I want to I want to finish The statement I was trying to make because I don't want people to be confused like that I've been arguing the exact same thing in the comment section if we're not careful

01:22:34

When we say things people who don't understand what we're saying come to the wrong conclusion So you're 100 right? So let me finish what

01:22:39

I was saying just to make to make this point It is 100 measurable

01:22:45

It is easy to measure That the green stones for the most part Will resonate at the exact same frequency of a healthy heart

01:22:54

That's just it is an objective and so i'm going to say so So let's go and so by by by extension what they have found is that The the the frequency that it it should that something should resonate at when it's healthy

01:23:09

Okay, that is the frequency toward which it it wants to move in that direction The body is pushing it toward health and as it heals and as it moves in the direction

01:23:17

It's supposed to move that frequency gets back to where a healthy frequency should be right where it needs to be Right.

01:23:23

Why do I need a stone to do that when god is the creator of my heart? He knitted me in my mother's womb. I will 100 answer that question as soon as I just say this last little piece

01:23:32

Had the stone actually helps to for the for the physical flesh

01:23:39

To get back to it helps it in the process of getting back to that healthy frequency so the answer to the question is this and I think chris honholtz made a

01:23:47

Really great point if you could bring that up. Uh, I think it'd be really valuable. Um, Because he was talking about this one

01:23:55

No, here's here's the answer. Here's the answer to your question He said something to the effect that the bible doesn't talk about penicillin either

01:24:03

Right, uh, the bible doesn't talk about supplements. The bible doesn't talk about It basically takes, you know, take a little bit of wine for your stomach's sake, right?

01:24:10

we utilize many different types of of things supplements, uh, maybe oils maybe

01:24:17

You get a headache and you take something to help you with your headache, right? Why do we do that because we have research and we have proof of the fact that these things

01:24:25

Actually work. So if we're talking about healing a heart, my dad had open heart surgery He allowed someone to cut open his chest pull back his ribs remove his heart do work on it and put it back

01:24:34

And we wouldn't say that my dad's faith in god Was uh was what wasn't what it should be simply because he allowed a doctor

01:24:42

To do open heart surgery on him and I wouldn't question somebody's faith if they took a little bit of wine for their stomach's sake or if they use

01:24:49

Supplements or if they use over -the -counter medicine, I don't use over -the -counter medication. I don't get vaccines.

01:24:54

I think those are probably Not the best idea for people but if somebody's going to research it and just going to they're going to do it

01:25:01

More power to them i'm not going to question their love or their faith in god I want to get to hear what durian's so the answer is that I do believe it's a little a little unfair i'm gonna say unfair because If somebody is using

01:25:18

This for their heart getting surgery for their heart or using a crystal for their hearts Why is the crystal guy the guy falling into idolatry while the other two aren't okay?

01:25:28

So i'm going to put this question up before during i'm going to just say so Xavier light says is there scientific paper supporting this superstition, please?

01:25:37

Xavier light is a is a nurse by the way. I know who that is. Okay, so the question is yes Okay, so I I'd want yeah, and I want to know who who paid for that.

01:25:47

Is it the heart math foundation? Who's a new age? You know institution so I when

01:25:52

I was a new ager I I come from a scientific background because I was a psychotherapist and had to do

01:25:57

A lot of research as a psychotherapist for my books and and my clinical practice And so I kept doing that as a new ager and I did a lot of research on crystals back then

01:26:07

I I think everyone should follow their conscience But I think what you're teaching here

01:26:13

Aaron for this audience knowing what we know from Ligonier polls pew research polls that only about five percent of Professing christians have actually ever read the whole bible and even less read the bible daily

01:26:26

We have to be so careful and I think you are I think I hear you saying these, you know, it's these little be careful

01:26:35

What you're what you're purporting sounds so much like syncretism to me. There's new age is a religion and I think you're trying to conflate new age

01:26:45

Teachings about crystal healing with the God gave us penicillin and aspirin is based on a tree that he gave us the willow bark, of course and and so I just think you have to be so careful because A lot of people get into new age through the avenue of trying to heal themselves.

01:27:04

I empathize with your father I have mitral valve prolapse. So does my brother. He has a a pacemaker in his heart

01:27:11

I have to manage my heart through no caffeine and daily cardiovascular exercise since I was 25

01:27:17

And hospitalized with the heart condition. I understand where you're coming from brother with um with the heart condition with your father but I think that the devil is really clever at saying hey

01:27:31

This crystal because look the vibrational studies over here This is the answer and I don't think it is because I was there

01:27:38

I did So many courses on crystal healing I had popular videos on crystal healing

01:27:45

I had a best -selling book on crystal healing And I was all in it and i'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater

01:27:51

I just want to say that I don't think they do anything except for the placebo effect

01:27:56

I believe that crystals are spiritually neutral and if you can have a crystal on your bookshelf In the same way, you can have a bouquet of flowers and say that's god's glorious Creation that's beautiful crystals are gorgeous.

01:28:09

Yeah, I have one right there Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with that. But the minute we think that they have some special magical power

01:28:17

That's that's that's when it's idolatrous Well, let me let me ask this Aaron hold on during since you you had been studying and teaching this

01:28:29

Um decades. Yeah decades. This is my my wheelhouse So chakras I started out with chakras by the way when

01:28:36

I first went from metaphysics and psychology into new age I sure don't even know what it is.

01:28:41

It's this okay Chakra sanskrit, uh is the eastern word the eastern language of hinduism?

01:28:48

And so chakra means wheel and these hindu gurus have psychically seen wheels inside of the body

01:28:56

Including a green one in the heart chakra that supposedly control the health and the energy of a person

01:29:02

And so there's seven major chakras In the body that are rainbow colored from the base of your spine

01:29:09

The the root chakra is red all the way to the top chakra is indigo and then there's chakras out here and in your fingertips and in the earth ley lines and such and they and people they

01:29:19

They have devices to try to measure this energy greg braden who came out of geoengineering

01:29:26

And I used to tour with him. We were absolutely best friends for a while now He won't talk to me because i'm a christian

01:29:32

But he wrote a lot of books on this topic of vibrations and the earth ascending and he he has best -selling books on this topic of Frequencies and hertz of the earth and the body so i'm very steeped in all of that But I think what it does is it creates a curiosity

01:29:52

That is dangerous and we have to be very careful that Our whole focus is on glorifying god and trusting god with all of our heart and leaning not on our own understanding

01:30:03

I think that the curiosity about the hertz and the vibrations is leaning on our own understanding more than trusting god

01:30:09

Is there is there studies? I mean because like if you you have the background in this are there have you seen?

01:30:17

the scientific studies that show that there's a vibration in in the color of rocks

01:30:24

Um, i've seen i've seen kirlian photography which I was kirlian photography comes from russia

01:30:30

If they call it aura photography now that you can see these colors from different people from different moods and i've also seen from heart math institute, which is a new age institution that's

01:30:42

I have great skepticism about them that they show This this vibration of your heart and how far out it goes connected to another person and such

01:30:51

I have not seen anything that would be a true scientific Study on the vibrations of crystals correlated with the vibration of heart at all

01:31:01

But i'm open to what to looking at that because I do know how to read a journal article from a scientific standpoint so if there's

01:31:08

If there's articles out there, please send them to me and i'm open to reading them, of course And and melissa here says many peer -reviewed papers are just that Just because the majority of individuals agree on something doesn't mean it's true.

01:31:20

So it's not peer review doesn't mean well Yeah But there's some specific with peer review that we just discovered that I want to make the point on is

01:31:37

That people say well if it's not peer -reviewed Meaning other people in the industry that are also coming to the same conclusion.

01:31:43

They're seeing it. They're reviewing it and they're agreeing with it It seems like oh, well, that's that could just be majority now.

01:31:49

We do see like let's talk creation anyone that believes in a literal seven -day creation cannot get peer -reviewed in the

01:31:58

Specular journals why because they they don't they just won't review it

01:32:03

That's a way of limiting that so that it can't be discussed but Recently, it was discovered that a lot of these companies that do peer review have been paying

01:32:16

For peer -reviewed this this ended up coming out for folks who who know about harvard what happened at harvard with the the

01:32:23

The president of harvard who had to resign she she was doing plagiarism

01:32:29

Yeah, it turns out the reason for plagiarism was some of it was being peer -reviewed being paid as a peer reviewer

01:32:37

And all these peer reviewers are just grabbing stuff. They see on the internet from others And just going here's a peer -reviewed document

01:32:44

And that and they're starting to find there's a bunch of plagiarism Right, and this is

01:32:50

I guess one benefit of of gen ai because that's how it got discovered What I understand and so just because it's peer -reviewed now, you can't trust it

01:32:59

Because if someone is getting paid To review it And they're getting paid to agree with it.

01:33:05

It's it's the same thing as when the government gives money We want you to research this. Well, what conclusion am I going to have the conclusion that the person paying me wants?

01:33:14

Right, how much am I getting paid to come to this conclusion? Right? Yeah So I mean so I just want the audience to realize when people say it's got to be peer -reviewed

01:33:23

That used to have a meaning that it no longer does So So, yeah, um, yeah, and I I just want to say just be careful everyone the temptation to uh in the curiosity

01:33:35

You know these alternative medicines That we're talking about today. A lot of people are desperate for healing

01:33:42

And there's a lot of promises laid out to people that are false promises by people who have no ethics

01:33:48

No, they have stony hearts And they they'll say anything to get a dollar from someone

01:33:54

So just be really discerning and pray about it pray for god's wisdom this

01:33:59

Using a green crystal sounds really innocent and like, you know, Aaron's talking about an anecdotal blessing to his father in his heart and we empathize with that and and but you might have a different experience with the green crystal that it's a

01:34:16

It's a stepping stone to going down the dark doorway of new age deception I can tell you if you take one step into new age deception

01:34:24

It's a spider web that will just draw you in and suck you in And years will go by and thousands of dollars will go by and you'll think what happened?

01:34:33

And then you'll pray you'll call out to jesus and he'll save you out of the new age like he did me But why waste all that time and money with you can just be steeped in his word and praying for his wisdom so so let me give it let me give a caution for folks and and say this because some of this it like Right now, right?

01:34:54

There's some discussions. Some might say well, this is A meat offered to idols. This is a christian liberty thing.

01:35:00

Okay, let me give a warning with that as well I'm going to use a different i'll do a different example.

01:35:06

Maybe for Aaron. It's the green crystals If you are a christian who believes that you could drink alcohol or not get drunk

01:35:14

Right. We all agree. That would be a sin, but there are some christians who believe drinking alcohol is fine okay and so Here's the thing what

01:35:25

I have always counseled people is because I see the christians who are posting pictures of them Having a beer or having something like that My caution is always this

01:35:34

We have to always think of the weaker brother Brother or sister. Okay, and I think what doreen's advice right?

01:35:41

It's Someone like aaron may you may have the discernment to realize hey, this is there's not an issue here

01:35:49

But unfortunately the majority of people who profess christ Don't don't have discernment.

01:35:57

It's I saw in the in the comments. I I had one that I wanted to bring up uh At some point but there was a bunch of comments about discernment

01:36:05

And it's it's lacking in the church so the thing I would say is that even if like aaron you're

01:36:11

You believe in the in the green crystal? Okay I personally why you say that's so fantastic well because I don't believe it but but My my my advice my counsel to you would end up being is like if you believe that but you know

01:36:29

How tied it is to? the new age I my my advice would be you know

01:36:37

You shouldn't mention that publicly. You shouldn't mention that like I think doreen had a really good point is

01:36:44

You may have the discernment to understand the difference and not get pulled into the rabbit hole of new age

01:36:50

But that doesn't mean people that listen to you have that discernment I want to agree with that, but I I want to I want to present an argument

01:36:59

I hope you guys will take a moment to respond to okay, because I do 100 percent agree with you But eight, uh, sorry doreen

01:37:08

Doreen already made this point that modern medicine Okay has a lot of very wrong beliefs in it and let's just be completely honest if you're going to a doctor who's not a christian

01:37:18

Fundamentally, he's not glorifying god. He's doing the right thing in the right way for the wrong reasons He's in sin

01:37:23

And if you pursue pursue any type of medical help Uh putting more faith and trust in the doctor more faith and trust in the medicines more, you know

01:37:32

Putting your hopes and dreams letting it hang on whether or not the doctor is going to be successful You are just as much in sin as somebody who's worshiping a crystal

01:37:40

We have to recognize that and here's the key thing that we all need to walk away from this How many religions how many people?

01:37:48

This coming sunday are going to get into pulpits or get up into their instagram, you know platforms

01:37:55

And lie to people and lead them astray using the word of god

01:38:01

When we make the argument Of the slippery slope argument when we make the argument that a person could latch on to something in the wrong way

01:38:09

Take it too far and get into trouble That's a very real argument, but it doesn't just apply to essential oils and crystals

01:38:18

There are there are I mean mormons Um, there are there are tons of people catholics who are who are using the bible

01:38:26

To lead people to hell So discernment is definitively necessary But to make the comment that you know to to say hey crystals like actually have a legitimate way of helping the healing process

01:38:43

And understanding who god is understanding what he created understanding how it works into the healing process

01:38:49

Let's have that conversation because we want to do all things to the glory of god Is no easier going to lead somebody astray than that same person going to the doctor and being told you know and being filled with trust in man and the fear of man or Opening up the scriptures and being led to believe it says something that it doesn't and that's

01:39:08

I think I think we I think we need to be balanced Terrible word,

01:39:13

I guess but I think we need to be careful to to to claim that this thing could lead people that way When we have tons of evidence that this otherwise perfect good thing is also doing that because people aren't being discerning

01:39:25

Just you have to be careful what we're labeling Well, we certainly don't want to cause anyone to stumble that would be horrible in any kind of sin

01:39:33

Yeah, and I would say I guess my response would be Saying okay, well you have mormons and catholics who are

01:39:43

Unbelievers leading people astray using the bible. Yes. Satan is going to try to deceive

01:39:49

And and that's why he's called an angel of light not an angel of darkness, right? He's he doesn't need to do his work

01:39:56

In the bars and the the strip clubs and places like that. He does his work pretending to be an angel of light and so The the fact that you have people that try to abuse the god's word and the truth

01:40:10

Okay Um doesn't mean we throw out the bible and I think you're that's what you're trying to argue but I wouldn't say that That we because we know the bible is true right but the fact that you have people that are not following the bible wouldn't be seen as as as Accurate to it

01:40:33

Are teaching it incorrectly, of course, they are because they're they have a works -based salvation Once they have a works -based salvation

01:40:41

They're like you don't have you don't have christians genuine believers

01:40:48

Uh going You know what? I'm tempted to go to the mormon church this week Okay, you have people that profess to be christians that do that Right, but I think that I think the the holy spirit who indwells us

01:41:04

Would keep us from going to that now So i'm i'm going to make the the difference

01:41:09

I see with your example though is The the holy spirit is going to work within a genuine believer to keep them from false doctrine or false teaching in that way

01:41:20

But that doesn't mean that you can't have someone that starts to see this new age where they're gonna they're gonna join it together

01:41:27

I completely disagree. I believe that the same holy spirit that's going to keep them from false doctrine Is also going to illuminate their mind to the truths of the scripture to help them to see that the claims

01:41:39

Made by wicca wiccan the claims made by new age the claims made by these other um clearly, you know anti -biblical teachings

01:41:49

Aren't true and that's and that's like I I I would say that the the person has the same propensity to fall into either

01:41:55

Because if they're if they're believing lies over truth They could become a catholic priest or they could become wiccan

01:42:02

You know what? I mean, and and the both of them are going to be wrong All right, let me bring in uh, andrew graham from down under Andrew how are you andrew?

01:42:19

Can you hear us? Maybe he's he's muted. So Andrew if you unmute i'm hearing something i'm hearing some but his his thing is muted so All right, andrew if you're if you uh, just put a thing in the private chat

01:42:36

We'll bring you in let me get to some of the comments. I know we only have about 13 minutes um

01:42:44

Just some of the comments that we had started I don't know if all these require Comments from you doreen, but uh dennis who pastor dennis is with need god philippines a great ministry there teaching churches to share the gospel there in the philippines and full disclosure, they are the organization that brought

01:43:03

Uh, justin peters jim osmond and myself the philippines to preach this uh this past year

01:43:09

So a great ministry there Uh, but he says many things sold in stores here in the philippines are actually new age products

01:43:17

But people do not know that they're even sold as toys for kids fatima is said, uh

01:43:26

Thank you for explaining the the repercussions and roots, uh of something as simple as mystic

01:43:33

Jesus is mind -boggling if if I can show my face uh

01:43:38

All cringing now, haha um We have uh, was it?

01:43:44

Okay you you mentioned, uh Doreen you mentioned about johnny and so jesse said

01:43:50

Uh fatima, I I wouldn't be too quick to judge johnny harshly. She's been consistent

01:43:55

Sounds sounds like she might be doing something ignorant. I think so. I think Yeah, she she actually the the premise of her book, uh practicing the presence of jesus about brother lawrence

01:44:04

Is that because she was in physical pain and brother lawrence also had a disability with pain?

01:44:10

She related to him Yeah, and and there is look There's things that we could hold to uh ignorantly and and be taught

01:44:21

I was The one i've told i've shared people say oh you can't be saved if you don't know that if you don't understand the trinity

01:44:27

I was saved being completely ignorant of the doctrine of the trinity growing up jewish. I never heard it

01:44:33

It was never explained to me So I got saved believing jesus is god

01:44:38

And I remember someone saying well, how did you think like so jesus was on the cross if he was god How did he die?

01:44:44

I'm like, I don't know. He's god It didn't make sense to me, but it didn't have to right

01:44:50

I knew he was god so there's things we could do out of ignorance um, but yeah, there's there's a difference between a weak a weak christian is ignorant and a rebellious christian who knows better That's a great way of putting it because I always say like with with modalism when people

01:45:06

Like I didn't know the trinity, but when explained to me I accepted But someone who knows the trinity like someone who was a pastor and like a tday tgg.

01:45:16

Yep. Yep He knows better. So therefore You know, he's so being yeah,

01:45:22

I like how you said it is ignorance versus rebellion. Yeah, um Chris on hold said uh people want to quote feel unquote like they're getting something direct from god scripture just doesn't uh

01:45:35

But it's scripture is just being enough. Yeah a bingo that's and johnny even said that in her

01:45:40

Explanation of her book that and and so did sarah young with jesus calling that the bible was not sufficient

01:45:47

And so people keep trying to go outside the bible when there's so much to mind there and the holy spirit will illuminate for us

01:45:54

What we need to know because the holy spirit's the author is of course of the bible so We we don't want to go outside of the bible

01:46:04

Yeah, this is that's also what we see in uh Bethel as well when bill johnson and or chris valentine makes statements such as God is bigger than his book and don't put god in a box.

01:46:16

He says don't put god in a box. That's right Yeah, but at the same time we are not bigger than his book.

01:46:22

Therefore we have no No reason to go beyond it because we can't even master in a hundred lifetimes what he has given us

01:46:32

Oh, man, so we don't need to go beyond what he already has Yeah, so true so, um

01:46:39

Then there was a lot of discussion on this that you know And fatima says that the quote god told me unquote is so pervasive in christian churches here in asia.

01:46:47

It's it's pervasive And and i'm going to say if you want a really good book

01:46:53

Dealing with this I you know, I heard a voice of god, you know, god spoke to me all that get jim osmond's book.

01:47:01

God doesn't whisper Yes, it is the best book on this subject It deals with every verse that people try to use to say that god is speaking to them and the reason that it's such a problem is because this it it's something that Jim and drew showing his copy

01:47:18

I should say if you want to get a copy if you just go to strivingforeturning .org Uh, it is available in our store so you can pick that up.

01:47:27

But actually we ship it right from amazon I had to show it because Jim gave me his books personally.

01:47:34

So of course, I always got to show it off when I can well, then I should Okay, then

01:47:40

I guess if that's the case, uh, you know, we're going to show our gym books. I'll show my Book is god doesn't try.

01:47:47

Yeah, I don't have that one. And yeah, he sent that to me too And drew

01:47:52

I didn't get one copy. He sent me six copies You know why he wants you to send those out to people.

01:48:00

Yeah, I guess I guess drew needs one, huh? Is that what we're learning? and send one to aaron and I'm gonna text jim and i'll be like look you sent one to andrew you sent one to doreen

01:48:12

You didn't send one to me because you're not pre -mill probably i'm not either

01:48:20

I know we're wrapping up just wanted to toss something. I didn't have a book to show off Let's toss something in here real quick.

01:48:27

I guess what I think I I believe that we all do agree on one really important point. We talked about discernment

01:48:33

We talked about knowledge understanding wisdom trusting in god leaning on his scriptures Um, definitely 100 we are all right there um, and I i'm seeing from the chat that That there are some people

01:48:45

I mean just like there are some people who my my thoughts on yoga have basically lost All respect in their eyes and they won't listen to a single thing that I ever have to say about anything ever again

01:48:54

Because I disagree with them on yoga I can I can completely see the fact that the crystal thing could potentially have the exact same impact.

01:49:01

I just want to remind everybody Okay That you go back far enough Before we had the technology to prove the reality, right?

01:49:12

um Nearly every a lot of the things that we hold true, especially in medicine today Were viewed as being witchcraft were viewed as being demonic were viewed as being magical, right?

01:49:23

There was there was always a wrong view about a big Wrong understanding about a big chunk of that Science proves it research shows that it works

01:49:34

Decades later sometimes centuries later we're going well, obviously there's nothing there's nothing wrong with eating meat offered to idols

01:49:39

And there was nothing wrong with using this one particular pine bark that the american indians

01:49:46

Said was mystical that would heal people. But will we understand why the pine bark actually made people feel better now?

01:49:53

We recognize that because we can show it and i'm just going to argue i'm going to make the point The research is out there.

01:49:58

You can find it and if not now in a couple decades It'll be common knowledge.

01:50:04

In fact, there's I was looking for it I wish I could remember i'll let andrew know what it is and he can talk about it later. There's actual medical technologies that is

01:50:12

When you say go Encourage people to go and this is the whole thing telling people to go and research this thing

01:50:19

When we know it's so tied to new age That's and I already i've already warned that but see but i'm giving

01:50:25

I I have to say again because I agree with what you said earlier If a person is grounded in the scriptures and knows the truth and they're taking what they're finding

01:50:34

And they're comparing it to the scriptures, which is what we all need to do You're in the best place possible and I want to give people

01:50:39

I want to hope all things and believe all things That they're now if they say well, i'm just going to go read that and their mind is turned off to the scriptures

01:50:46

Well, that's dumb. That's bad. You're in trouble. You're opening yourself up for deception But if you go with your bible open and you go with in prayer and you confront these things

01:50:55

You spit out the bones you eat the meat you skim the cream you do all the metaphors that's what

01:51:00

Bethel says about what that spit out the the meat spit out the bones

01:51:08

Yeah, but but here's the thing We all do this No, we don't because you because we go to medical doctors who don't believe in god

01:51:15

I don't go to medical doctors who don't believe in god I don't i'm I think you're making a sweeping statement. You said you don't use vaccines even though there's scientific studies that say that they work

01:51:24

Sure So, I mean, well, here's here's the bottom line and i love that you brought up first corinthians

01:51:30

Aaron, i'm glad you brought up first corinthians 10 because this is in view here because paul said that we could eat the meat that was

01:51:37

Prayed over in the pagan temples, but his conclusion is really what's in view here His conclusion was even though I can eat of this meat.

01:51:45

I will not eat anything. I will not drink anything I will not do anything and he put anything that could cause a brother to stumble and when we are when we are

01:51:57

Saying that there's vibrations that match a shock indian chakra That that there's a green crystal

01:52:04

Then what we could be doing tonight inadvertently and I know you would never meet to do this because you're a biblical counselor

01:52:11

But most people don't know the bible. Most people are weak ignorant christians You could be causing someone to stumble.

01:52:18

So I just need because of where i've come from Thousands and thousands of new agers have come through my doors

01:52:25

Who said that they started with yoga? Into new age because they wanted to be healed and then they got into chakras and then to crystals and it's this

01:52:35

Breadcrumb trail that's so dark and they ended up being some of them ended up being satanic high priests

01:52:41

Priestesses through that dark doorway. Yeah, so we need to be so careful what we say

01:52:47

As people people who are just why I think it's very important to point out that I think you did a disservice to To that passage and here's the reason

01:52:56

I say you did a disservice to that passage paul just told the corinthians

01:53:02

It's okay to eat this Okay what i'm doing what i'm saying tonight is i'm saying We need to submit to god

01:53:08

We obviously need to glorify him in all things It is not inappropriate if you're having heart trouble to fall asleep at night with a green rock on your as well as you're pursuing

01:53:16

Everything else to god's honor and glory i'm communicating just like paul communicated the sole stumbling block issue was that Somebody would see him

01:53:25

Right not know not have heard his discussion that this is not wrong

01:53:31

He said he wouldn't do anything and he also did not redeem the pagan prayers He didn't redeem he didn't redeem the pagan temple, right?

01:53:39

And so that's the analogy to new age that you're going to lead people to that pagan temple. He didn't redeem through telling them to go explore green rocks because You know going to a medical doctor is one thing

01:53:51

But the only place you can buy a green rock is through a new age metaphysical bookstore and people are going to go in there

01:53:57

No, it is I but I had tons of crystals. You're going to get them through a new age Source, and then that person's going to start talking to you about here's an abraham hicks book.

01:54:06

Here's the secret Here's oh you want healing sure you can have a session with a psychic and they'll heal your father

01:54:12

So be careful you guys when talking about what seems to be just like this little Thing a green crystal it can open up dark doorways

01:54:23

So I'm and i'm not going to ask either of you to to answer this we could we could When we end the show

01:54:29

You could let me know Because but I would almost be interested to see the two of you guys have a more formal discussion or even a formal debate um on this um

01:54:41

Because I think it could be very helpful um either on this I think I think we just did andrew well, that was a discussion, but it wasn't long enough and it wasn't uh,

01:54:52

You know, it wasn't it wasn't enough But yeah, so so we we could we could talk about that.

01:54:58

Uh after the show goes off see if we could do that. Um, I I some of the comments that I did have that that uh drew here stored some of these as well

01:55:07

But fatima says, uh about dorange goes in her questions to am brewster. I can easily see that doreen is very sharp

01:55:14

And so so yeah, I picked up the same thing when she posted that um

01:55:20

Uh, let's see you start this one from greg Uh should christians use phrases like good vibes and positive energy

01:55:28

That have origins in non -christian beliefs or does such language compromise our faith?

01:55:35

or borderline on being legalism legalism legalism means that you believe you're saved by your works and that would be one ditch as Antinomianism is the other ditch so we're not saying that we all agree that we're saved by god's grace and mercy through our faith

01:55:49

In the lord jesus christ, so it's not legalistic But we're we're commanded in such as ephesians 5 11 to have no fellowship with darkness

01:55:57

Why would we use language that glorifies self? Instead of glorifying god, so I would say don't use the word yoga.

01:56:05

Don't use the word chakra. Don't use these these vernaculars That like good vibes.

01:56:10

I know the beach boys popularized it. I got that but if you use this languaging Someone it could cause someone to stumble.

01:56:17

That's all i'm saying is be so careful because people are watching us as christians What's what's that old saying?

01:56:24

We might be the only bible they ever read is us Yeah, and so they think oh that professing christian's got a yoga mat under her arm that must be okay

01:56:31

So she goes to the local yoga studio and gets immersed in hinduism and buddhism as I did in a yoga studio

01:56:38

Because she doesn't know any better. I grew up reading the bible, but I didn't know any better So we have to be so super careful you guys.

01:56:45

Yeah, that's why like I I said this before with people that try to Try to say well yoga is just stretching.

01:56:52

So they want to give it a christian like a Holy yoga or veneer um

01:56:59

That you know, it's like then call it something other than yoga right if it's just stretching

01:57:07

Then yoga means yoga They do the exact same thing with martial arts Yeah, we talked about that and you don't accept that position.

01:57:15

So I I think it's again I think we're just I I think it's a little bit of the weaker brother standards, right?

01:57:22

It's the weaker brother who says this thing absolutely positively has to be avoided at all costs Whereas the stronger brother was the one who recognized there's nothing inherently wrong with this.

01:57:31

There's nothing inherently sinful or wrong about The martial arts there's nothing inherently wrong or sinful about stretching.

01:57:37

There's nothing inherently wrong or sinful about using essential oils Um, and I and I think if we're going to say we can't talk about central oils

01:57:44

We need you know, we need to not say we have good vibes I'm, just saying I think we're I think those

01:57:49

I think those are weaker brother standards And I understand the desire to not want to cause someone to stumble but again when you're communicating it when you're saying this is why i'm saying this this is the biblical and And the reasonable logical theological reason for doing this that's not

01:58:04

Causing someone to stumble because you're explaining it just like paul was explaining that eating meat off her dials was not a sin

01:58:10

I don't think you know women we are very vulnerable and we are very impressionable Maybe men are stronger.

01:58:16

I don't know but I would be so careful talking to women about crystals. I I know this that you know,

01:58:23

I i'll take a safer position and and know that uh, When I stand before christ, he's not going to say oops, you messed that one up, you know um and so, uh, let me see

01:58:35

I know I know we're a bit over but there were some Good comments in here. I think that you had started drew

01:58:42

Um, i'm trying to look for some of them The ones we you start which ones do we need to address?

01:58:52

Because some of these I know so you you look for some i'll uh, I'll just mention a fatima.

01:58:59

She said oh jim osmond was in the philippines and I didn't get that book I feel so sorry now you didn't get because it wasn't there um when we when we're in the philippines fatima, you can get

01:59:10

I think you could have just I think They were if you contact me god, I think they were they were doing

01:59:16

Uh pre they might have been doing pre -orders of that because they're getting it printed uh, but I think the only

01:59:22

They're one of the books. He didn't have There. I don't know if it's god doesn't whisper. I think god doesn't whisper what was there and god doesn't try

01:59:29

They were doing orders for so reach out to need god Uh philippines, they'll be able to help you with that.

01:59:35

Okay. Here's a here's one from melissa that I had started It says I don't agree with the premise don't throw the baby out with the bath water

01:59:44

Do false teachers still teach truth among the lies? Yeah, I mean they do uh

01:59:52

Sometimes I mean a broken clock is right twice a day. Um The pope isn't wrong just because he thinks that homosexuality is a sin.

01:59:59

He's actually right on that point I wouldn't encourage not not the current pope. Yeah Well, no, no the current one actually is getting in trouble pretty extreme things about homosexuality

02:00:10

Yeah, he actually was right on he there's a topic he's actually was right on wait,

02:00:15

I thought I thought he was Bro, he seems to be going both ways. Like he just recently came out with something

02:00:22

Yeah, he recently made a statement that there will never be homosexuality allowed in the priesthood so um

02:00:32

So andrew was trying to get in he's from australia, uh, and he had said uh, uh I'm an epileptic and that was once considered to not demonic to uh to have seizures

02:00:43

Um, so I think he was going to come in and talk about that, but he's having connection issues so, um

02:00:50

So we we didn't even get into half of the questions I had for you during that's okay um

02:00:57

Maybe we'll have to have you back. Yeah and because I mean, it's just so much so much knowledge that you have with the history you've had in studying this for so many years um, let me

02:01:07

I have I have on the on Showing there her website folks. I want to encourage you to go to doreenvirtue .com

02:01:14

Uh, she's got a lot of articles out there. Um I didn't see is your is your is there a link there to your youtube channel?

02:01:24

I'm, not sure. I I don't maintain that website like I should Yeah um

02:01:30

But you know the the bottom line is our our hope is in jesus not in things not

02:01:37

A rock or a yoga pose or a relationship or anything? Our hope is in jesus.

02:01:44

And so I just I want to see everybody really Understand that where i'm coming from is that the new age is all about idols

02:01:53

Where we want this sparkly thing to be what saves me what heals me? and It's it's about jesus.

02:02:00

Everything's about jesus We've got to put all of our hope and our focus on jesus and not take our eyes off the cross.

02:02:06

That's right That that's the most important thing You know that we have to to recognize and uh, aaron had to go he texted me.

02:02:15

So sorry I had to go Um, so I don't think he was going but I think I think he's a big boy.

02:02:20

He can handle being in the hot seat Uh Yeah, I just I feel bad for his dad. I hope he's not clinging to oh this rock is my hope

02:02:27

When he goes to sleep at night, I just I want him to cling to jesus as his hope, especially He came back.

02:02:33

I I'm, sorry. I I Unfortunately, you misunderstood what I said that that wasn't it at all.

02:02:39

My dad had open heart surgery That that that I was just talking about that. There was no clinging. There's no there's no hope

02:02:44

My dad doesn't use any of those stones. So i'm i'm, sorry if I miss on communicating I thought you told him to fall asleep with with the

02:02:53

Example that To say that a person who believes that a crystal is going to help them heal is no more

02:02:59

I inherently idolatrous and a person who believes that open heart surgery is going to help them heal That was the point

02:03:04

I was trying to make But yeah, but I am sorry. I do have to say I I do have to go. I apologize I didn't want to seem like I was jetting out

02:03:09

So I I just came back on and say i'm not just stomping off and taking my marbles and going home um

02:03:18

No, I had to ask All right, god bless um

02:03:24

Yeah, and I don't You know that there was a question during I I know this is longer

02:03:30

Uh, but I I did I actually wanted to genuinely understand this question if I could find it, but someone was asking how how is it that they claim that the that the the the crystals heal

02:03:44

Like you're talking about frequency and it was identical to what he said So the chakra system that the hindus came up with that There are different colors.

02:03:55

So you match the color of the crystal to the chakra It was identical to what aaron said. That's why I got so righteously angry because I was like wait

02:04:03

That's just what I got saved out of that's what jesus died for that false teaching Is that the same as so we had?

02:04:11

Um You know, I I hear about the the light therapy, right there's a lot of Of folks with the red light therapy, which is trying to emulate the light of the sun um and so You know, is that a similar thing?

02:04:28

I mean light actually I mean like the colors of a rock. I mean a rock to me is just a rock.

02:04:33

It doesn't vibrate It's not alive. It's not So I I I don't fully understand that But I don't either

02:04:41

I have not researched Light therapy. I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently. My wheelhouse was chakras crystals psychic work

02:04:49

So I I wouldn't want to go into an area that I don't know enough about Okay, yeah

02:04:57

Um Let's see. So I just see that uh, brian simmons. I don't know.

02:05:03

He's referring to his false idols for Yeah, right Yeah, like those evil eye necklaces people wear and such yeah if if if I knew brian was was watching live

02:05:15

I would like if we had another hour i'd have him come in because uh, brian is an individual who

02:05:22

Looked at all the a lot of new age stuff. He he went to uh, uh

02:05:28

Peru And had the i'm trying to remember what that drug is that they all take down there.

02:05:35

Oh the ayahuasca ayahuasca so so you know, he has an experience with that and um, he he got saved out of all that and It so he was a shaman then he he wasn't a shaman, but he was he he was

02:05:52

I don't think but he was very much into a lot of that stuff. He went down and took that stuff and Is this therapy that it's illegal in the u .s.

02:06:01

But a lot of Military guys who suffer from like ptsd and stress and all that stuff they're going down and It's it's a lot of it's drug -based um almost

02:06:14

Brian's right Antigens and stuff. Yeah, I think that they do ayahuasca here in the u .s.

02:06:20

I've I've talked to I thought that ayahuasca was only allowed in peru like it's something

02:06:26

I thought in peru and I And and this could have changed but I think brian had told me like because everyone flies down there all these yeah you know, you have all the um hollywood types and You know people like that.

02:06:41

They they go down there and it's like one region and they take this stuff and They have really crazy you hear people talk about crazy experiences and Some good some very not good

02:06:54

And so yeah, it's a dangerous thing and uh, you know Maybe sometime I have to get brian in here to talk about that and the dangers of it.

02:07:01

Um But well during I I appreciate you coming in. Thank you

02:07:07

I I think that folks doreen virtue .com Um, there's a lot a lot of there

02:07:13

And so what is your youtube channel? Is that also? Yeah, it's yeah. Yeah youtube is is the at sign and then doreen underscore

02:07:22

Virtue virtue. Yeah It's easiest is instagram you can go on instagram you can see my

02:07:29

Is it not linked in the link tree on instagram? So instagram is doreen virtue

02:07:35

Okay Yeah, so be following her check out everything that she's she's doing

02:07:40

Uh, as you can see This is as we said in the beginning of show this stuff is pervasive

02:07:48

Even within christianity and growing Yeah, and so don't even let a little leaven come in you folks

02:07:54

Please just don't don't let even a little bit of new age into your life or your church because it just it'll just go

02:08:01

It'll take advantage And so fatima here is saying thank you for introducing us to doreen such a blessing

02:08:09

Uh, jess is saying. Thank you. Doreen um Let's see melissa's saying hot topic for sure.

02:08:16

Yeah melissa you're right sis um So yeah, we appreciate you coming in.

02:08:22

Thank you Next week, uh, we're not going to have a show for next week only because I will be uh at the

02:08:32

Research center there in utah. And so I do want to ask you guys to be praying and and if you're in anywhere in uh

02:08:40

Daper draper utah. I will be at the utah christian research center and So we just made some changes to the agenda, but I will be speaking at the research center on thursday

02:08:54

Morning be covering the topics of can we trust the bible and uniqueness of christianity? That evening

02:09:00

I will talk about the trinity as a solution to a problem Friday we'll be talking about the roman catholic church how to defend the faith in the morning

02:09:08

And then the evening we're going to talk about the deity of christ Saturday morning will be the dangers of social justice and i'll be teaching our ambassador evangelism in one hour that evening we just Arranged it

02:09:25

It looks like matt slick and I will be doing a live debate together And we were originally talking about baptism

02:09:33

But uh, it seems that there's more interest in discussing the continuation of gifts So matt and I will debate that one once again

02:09:41

I think we've done it four times now So which is is good because we know each other's arguments and it makes us have to you know

02:09:50

Find some other things so that is something that we've just added to that So if you're in that area and then

02:09:55

I do want to just Say again, I know it's a couple weeks out, but I do want to promote

02:10:01

If I could find the flyer here, there we go if you're watching, uh, you will be able to Uh, you scan that qr code

02:10:09

Um, but this is the christian responsibility in an unchristian world conference Uh, this will be august 8th to 10th in vail, arizona

02:10:18

Uh, if you want details of this or register for it, just go to striving for eternity dot org slash veil v a i l

02:10:28

So striving for eternity dot org slash veil I'll be speaking there. Kevin. Hey, john sampson.

02:10:34

Aaron bruster. Dan craft Dominic rimaldi and jay miller most of these names you've not heard of Uh, but all of the speakers are excellent preachers.

02:10:45

And so I really want to encourage you to check that out again Vail, arizona august 8th to 10th the christian responsibility in an unchristian world.

02:10:56

There's going to be a lot of really good Uh topics being discussed there to challenge us, uh all of us um with The you know, just how do we live?

02:11:07

In a world that's very unchristian, uh as as was discussed tonight So, uh with that doreen, is there any places you're going to be traveling and speaking we can encourage people to to go see

02:11:17

Oh, thanks. I'll be at the arc of the arc of the um What's the name of the arc in kentucky arc encounter arc encounter?

02:11:26

I'll be at the arc encounter the women's conference in april 2025 Speaking along with michelle leslie amy spreeman and costy hen

02:11:35

Some people could women could uh register for that. Mm -hmm All right

02:11:40

And uh, so drew where you oh, no, you're not speaking. You're you're you're busy trying to take care of babies

02:11:46

Yeah I got I got to work because we got a third one on the way. So oh Congratulations, it's so nice to meet you drew because uh, our mutual friend dave jenkins has spoken highly of you.

02:11:58

Yeah Oh, I love dave. Yeah Sarah very well He knows me very well,

02:12:07

I invited him to come talk with us tonight, but he said he was going on a walk with sarah So, oh he's at another time.

02:12:13

He is he is super in love with his wife. She is lovable Yeah, well

02:12:19

Um with that during we thank you for your time. Thank you No show next week because i'll be in in utah