Salvation, Healing, Miracles, and the Sovereignty of God: An Interview with Pastor John Samson

Welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters I hope that you and your family are doing well today.

I want to thank you very much for joining me for this Podcast and it is a distinct privilege to be with my friend

John Sampson If those of you who saw my interview with John that I posted a couple of weeks ago

You might notice that we have a different arrangement Before I interviewed you on zoom and now

I am in your living room amazing Isn't that amazing so John and I are together and the reason that we're together is

John has Graciously opened his pulpit to me this weekend. We're recording on a Saturday night, but Lord willing tomorrow morning.

I'll be preaching John you're the pastor of Kings Church in Peoria Arizona right outside of Phoenix and so John, thank you for doing this.

It's a pleasure It's a thrill to do I and it's a privilege to be with you. Yeah Good Well, um, so we wanted to since we were together we thought you know

We should just do a video together since we have this opportunity and flesh out a little bit more some of the things that we talked about in our last interview and John for those

Who may not have seen our previous interview? Theologically, we'll lay our cards on the table.

You and I are both Calvinistic to use that term, but I don't know about you but I don't go around calling myself a

Calvinist because I'm not a disciple of John Calvin, but but you and I do believe in the biblical doctrine of election and we're going to talk some more about that and God's sovereignty and we are also

Cessationists. Mm -hmm, but that's particularly important for you because you came from a word -of -faith background.

That's right yeah, I was fully engaged as a pastor in the word of faith and Worked at TVN for a while.

Yeah, and Trinity Broadcasting Network at Christian television operation and the

Lord has delivered me and set free and Have no regrets of coming out of that into what

I perceive to be the biblical truth Amen. Yeah, indeed. You have the distinct privilege of Honor of having been fired by Jan Crouch.

I found out last week. There was more than just Arizona I think it was At least at least two states.

I know up, but it might have been much more than that She was that right? She just fired everybody a couple that I think

Stayed on but it was it was bigger than I thought. Yeah Yeah, so, um cessationism a lot of people

Don't really understand what that term means and when you and I'll grant when you when you use the term

Cessatious we're kind of already starting behind the eight ball a little bit. It sounds negative But you know, I something right there was a nice with that's all we're about is denying something.

Yeah Yeah, so as a cessationist, do you deny? The Holy Spirit not at all the power of the

Holy Spirit not at all Do you know for I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit more now than I did then?

Amen, amen, isn't that the truth? I tell people I saw one of the great ironies in this whole movement is that What a faith people when you have saw the

Reformation they would look at people like us John say oh you Deny the power of the Holy Spirit You don't believe in the

Holy Spirit even I've heard some say to the contrary you and I have such a high view of the

Holy Spirit and Such a confidence in his power that we do not believe that someone can be indwelt by the

Holy Spirit and Teach the kind of jaw -dropping Blasphemies and heresies that that these people teach and and not have any conviction

And eat but even when you were in word of faith you didn't you didn't go nearly as far in your doctrine as say like a

Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn or even Andrew Womack you I believe the

Holy Spirit kept me Which is why I believe back then I was a genuine Christian. I would say

With a heck of a lot of baggage For sure. Yeah, but the

Lord kept me from some of those blasphemies, which are in fact It's a carefully phrased word

Blasphemies, yes Who Jesus is the Holy Spirit would not allow that in the life of one of his?

People that he indwells But you teach the kind of things that Kenneth Copeland regularly teaches and Creflo Dollar and Jesse Duplantis and Bill Johnson Even they regularly teach just jaw -dropping heresies

And if they were truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit of God would be dropping them to their knees under such heavy conviction

Yeah, and the concern is when they hear truth There's nothing in them that wants to change that again

It sends alarms should send alarm bells to those who follow these people that they don't say you know what

I need to come under authority the authority of the scriptures And bear out what they teach and learn for a while if in fact,

I've been guilty I need to be open to the fact that I've been guilty of teaching either heresy or close to it and Sadly that's not always the case.

In fact, it's very rare that someone listens to To advise

Proverbs is all about, you know receiving correction and We should all be open to be corrected by the

Word of God. Yeah, right And these are big things. These are not side issues when we're talking about Christology who

Jesus is Truly God truly man never a time when he's not

Functioning as the God man after the incarnation. He's not Doing something only

By He's throwing out his divinity while he does something over here.

Yeah, that that that's actual Heresy, absolutely the Nehru gene would teach that that he laid his divinity aside.

I mean Bill Johnson to this day Teaches that Todd White to this day teaches that Kenneth Copeland So that's a yeah, that's that's here.

See we're not we're not talking about the date of the Exodus or who wrote the book of Hebrews or even eschatology.

Yes, you know, not that eschatology is not important But it's not a salvific issue, right? And also in cessationist you and I affirm that the gifts of teaching and mercy and administration

Exhortation giving hospitality those gifts are very much operative in the church today, right?

Yes For sure. So it's a it's a straw man argument. It's it's a red herring with People say oh cessationists don't believe in the gifts.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, we do actually We just believe that the sign gifts have ceased.

No apostolic gifts and I mentioned in our interview the first time first installment that even a lot of charismatics

Do not believe that there Continue that there are still modern -day apostles big a apostles and as in holding that office

Mm -hmm today and if you see that that okay. Yeah, there's no more apostles today like Paul mm -hmm like Peter, you know like John those there's no more apostles big a apostles

But then then you have already seated the basic premise of the cessationist position that that gift and It is a gift

Ephesians 4 he gave some as apostles Then that gift has ceased and so you've already seated the basic premise of cessationism yeah, the big a apostles had to have seen the risen

Lord and there were signs of the Apostles right second Corinthians 12 and Those are not happening.

Yeah, and I think even The well, I don't know about every charismatic person but most

I think that are in any way sound would affirm the fact that those things are not happening and they then redefine what is happening to be of that ilk and It's not happening.

Yes when Jesus healed them all it was a unique thing in Israel and though the

Apostles were able to Reproduce Many of the things that Jesus did they there's no record that they turned water into wine.

That's right There's there's no record of that because you read through John's gospel The seven signs that are brought out there.

There were signs of the uniqueness of Christ. And so if everyone can do them Then what makes that unique?

He's just he was just the The best skilled at what all of us can do

Which is exactly What Bill Johnson and when you say that just brings it's exactly what

Bill Johnson teaches about Christ It says he was the most I don't have in front of me, but he says it if this isn't a direct quote

It's very very close Jesus Christ was the most normal Christian in the

Bible That's blasphemy. Mm -hmm Yeah, you don't see any the disciples none of them walked on water

Peter did briefly but only because Jesus commanded him to yes, but they didn't do that afterwards and they couldn't do it at will

No, they they couldn't just say right. There's a lake of Galilee. I'm gonna walk over and I'll save some time walking all the way around and they they

People might say that's happening today All right Well, the the amazing thing is when they say all these miracles same things are happening as happened back then

Even in the darkest jungles of name the place. Yeah, there are cell phones.

There are families that don't have Microwave ovens and don't have satellite television, but it seems everybody seems to have a cell phone even in those obscure country places that You can't even find on a map

And so you'd think wouldn't you that if these things were happening as frequently as they say they are happening

Someone somewhere would have caught it. Yes, would it was it? Look there's the video and There's this tribe that has never been reached before.

There's this Person has called her Betty Jones. She's gone out there from America She's standing in the city square the village square the tribal square and she goes off in tongues

And everyone comes to Christ because they hear the gospel and you'd think someone what someone would have caught bad

Because everybody's got they say and even the person themselves would say hey Take this for the next five minutes.

Yeah, and all we need is one that's genuine exactly Show us. Yeah. All right.

I've been in some of the poorest countries on the planet. Mm -hmm. I've been in African countries where people are quite literally living in mud huts with thatched roofs

Yeah, and they have cell phones. Yes. I mean, it's yes. It's all I have to see but it's true

Yes, and you know, I tell people if if the apostolic gifts were still in operation

Then charismatics would not have to expend so much Energy and effort trying to convince us all that they are

It would be manifestly obvious That they are mm -hmm but they're not and they the it wasn't just the disciples of Christ that Acknowledged the miracles of Jesus.

It was the enemies of Christ, right? They couldn't deny that a miracle had happened.

You read John's gospel. Yeah, they couldn't and they couldn't turn even the enemies of the gospel

Recognize that signs and wonders were taking place. Mm -hmm. And I mean the evidence was just so overwhelming and incontrovertible

And that is not what we see today. I mean, what do we see the best the best we have today is

Todd white Going around on the streets Lengthening people's legs by about that much

And that that's a that's a part of our trick to signs and wonders And apparently there is an epidemic in this country of people with having one leg just a little bit shorter than the other

In every sense, I would say Todd white is as much a magician as he claims to be a man of God I would go around and look for people that were like limping with obvious sicknesses.

Is there any problems at all physically? My back isn't the best and I've got to him and asked to pray for them

Tell your legs shorter your one leg shorter than the other one that throws you back out. This is the

Holy Ghost film from 2014 This is a really great trick and you're gonna see in a moment here that it is a trick

So what I'll do regardless of what you believe I'm gonna pray for you and Jesus is gonna grow your leg out and heal your back

Charlatans and snake oil salesmen have been doing this trick for decades. It's slight of hand

So father, I thank you in Jesus name Left leg I command you bro right now Jesus name

It's longer now than the other And then if I was done if they received it, well, which most did

I'd be like, oh god loves you so much Have a good day. I'm not like out here to say you need to know dude.

God loves you, bro And that's it man. It's semper fi Now we're gonna see

Todd White's clip sped up quite a bit and looped back and forth Now this is where we can see what's really going on here

The leg on our right is supposed to be the short leg and this is the leg which should be miraculously growing but it's not

Look at the leg on our left. That's where all the action is. That's what's actually being manipulated

You can see that Todd is actually pivoting or shifting the foot of the so -called long leg so that the heels match

Now he's doing this very slowly over time But it's painfully obvious when you speed up the clip and what he is doing is

The most hateful thing you could possibly do for someone men like Todd white Preach a gospel that is centered on love.

The problem is it's not biblical love Biblical love confronts sin Would you say to that?

You read the book of Acts and there were some amazing things happening through the hands of the Apostles.

It says and Peter's shadow causing people to be healed and yet acts 19 speaks of handkerchiefs from Paul going out but as time goes on you see a

Once the gospel has been established and that's the key thing once the gospel has been established

When Paul has someone in front of him who's sick He's not just or someone outside of his immediate 10 -yard circle

He's not sending handkerchiefs he's talking about I left someone sick, you know, this is trophy must have my leaders and Timothy take take something for your stomach issues, right rather than Confess the word and yeah, here's a handkerchief.

Yeah and you see this waning of the apostolic power as the gospel was being established and Galatians for Paul's himself spoke of wrote of bodily affliction that he endured and so Take the script.

We believe the scripture. We believe the Holy Spirit has as God He has breathed out the scripture for us and the scriptures themselves

Speak of this as a waning thing. It's obvious over time and could you imagine if John was

You know flowing in the same power that he started out with I Don't know it

There was a time when The miraculous was never not was not now the expectation

Yeah That's right. And that's what that's all we're saying Does God answer prayer?

Absolutely. Do we see the Lord in mercy? We see someone got has received at the cancer report and Recently we've seen times where folk of Have had a retest and it's no longer that I have no doubt that God's been behind that But you can't have that expectation

I don't think biblically you can have that expectation because It's clear that God is sovereign and we'll talk about those scriptures and God is sovereign over when people receive and for many with with absolutely atrocious

Handicaps and physical disabilities their healing won't be in this world and to Which gets us to the harshness of the word of faith because there is no room for a sick person that is

Continually sick who over three or four years is still sick who after ten years is still in that disabled condition that they are doing something wrong or not

Appropriating to use probably their words they eat they use but Jesus didn't have anybody in the crowd saying could you help me?

appropriate this They were all healed. Yes, that's right

And so to say we're walking in the same power as the Apostles or Jesus All right, show me a crowd where all are healed and we're talking about very very very sick people

Yes, very very handicapped blind Deaf not slight

Slight issue that they the vision is a little fuzzy. This this is blind from birth stuff.

Yes Yes, show us your refutable show us and the enemies of Christ acknowledge the miracles, so they put it as Demonic and they they said this is of the devil, but they couldn't deny the reality of that's exactly right

And I can deny the reality of Todd White lengthening someone's leg by half an inch that's part of truth

I could not had I been living 2 ,000 years ago denied that Jesus raised the dead

Mm -hmm. I couldn't deny that the Apostles that God through the Apostles raised the dead

Eutychus, you know, you couldn't deny that. Yes, but it's it's quite easy to deny the

What we see being passed off as so -called signs and wonders today. Yeah, and And you're you spoke just a minute ago about the cruelty of the

Word of Faith movement just earlier this year I believe those in January. I don't have the date but One of the more well -known names in the

Word of Faith movement quote -unquote apostle Frederick Casey Price died and Fred Price had some of the

Cruelest statements that I have ever heard come from the mouth of a so -called preacher and He actually said

I again. I'll have a quote in front of me, but he said What makes you think that the Holy Spirit of God wants to live in inside of a body that doesn't function, right?

in fact, I wanted to find the exact quote just so you can see for yourself how Cruel the theology of the

Word Faith movement really is This is a thumbnail from a video that it's on on YouTube done by a very pro

Word of Faith YouTube Channel, and I'm not even gonna name it because I don't want to drive any traffic his direction

But shortly after Fred Price's death this YouTube channel did a very laudatory

Review of Fred Price's ministry just Praising the socks off of this guy.

Well, let me show you who this guy is Here's here's the quote Fred Price's.

How can you glorify God in your body when it doesn't function, right? How can you glorify

God? How can he get glory when your body doesn't even work? What makes you think the

Holy Ghost wants to live inside of a body where he can't see out through the windows? And he can't hear with the ears

What makes you think the Holy Spirit wants to live inside of a physical body where the limbs and the organs and the cells do?

Function right and what makes you think he wants to live in a temple where he can't see out of the eyes

Can't walk with the feet and can't move with the hand The only eyes that he has that are in the earth realm are the eyes that are in the body

Which is just horrific theology in and of itself But I digress if he can't see out of them, then

God's gonna be limited there's Fred Price that is Cruelty on a level that is

I cannot even comprehend That's what I mean when I say it's a legalistic religion because because we're not talking about salvation, but we're talking about something pretty serious when we talk about people dying and For someone to die in the

Word of Faith thinking with a disease They didn't they weren't able to appropriate because of something they didn't do or Something they did it comes down to that because God has done all that.

He's gonna do He's the one who's got the power supply. It's always turned on you somewhere have not

Appropriated so you die because of you. Yeah, that's right and your kid died because of you

Yeah, and and so you're on We're talking about real people and as a pastor

I Do wince about the doctrine that I espoused even though I said

I avoided some of the the blatant heresies To put simply healing in front of someone when they've got cancer not prepare them to die.

It's not serving them And that's that's what I've been guilty of and I've talked with you. I said that the regret is is

Enormous and yet the forgiveness of God is there I believe but I want to establish the fact that God is

God is the healer, but he's also sovereign We don't forget when we talk about his attributes what we learn on page one of our

Bibles that God is the creator and the sustainer and the sovereign one and He's sovereign over all things and the fact that we even have to talk about it

Is is is sad in in the Christian world that God is sovereign and have to define it and where do we go when we define sovereignty

Well, what we don't do is go to an English dictionary. Yeah, and Look up the word sovereign

We are to derive what we believe about sovereignty from from this book

And draw out what it says and you can't read the book without finding out God is in Control of all things.

Let's let's let's talk about that Any event on planet Earth say there's going to be a bank robbery in a certain city next

Tuesday. This is a fictitious Idea but let's just go in our minds in a certain city a

Bank robbery is planned for on a Tuesday. Could God stop that?

Yes. Yes, he could. Yes. I think every Christian would say yes, he could he could

Cause the the car to not function that day the getaway car never even got to the bank he can

He can actually cause the bank robbers plural To have heart attacks before they ever get there.

Yeah in him. We live and move and have our being That's the God of the Bible. He I can't raise my hand without God.

That's the biblical teachings, right? I couldn't do that by myself without God allowing it. You're saying

God allowed it. Yes. Yeah God could stop me from raising my hand by Striking me down.

He could he's that God and God is Empowering me to do it and God is empowering the atheist to have his brain

Cells function even as he defies God. That's how sovereign he is

That's right. And so could God stop something? Yes Could God stop anything?

Yes, the fact that he Allows something to take place Means that in some way

He's ordained it That's right. There's no that where am

I? Where is the Christian? What can the Christian? It doesn't believe this Basic doctrine of sovereignty where can he go?

Where are we going wrong here? Yeah, if he can stop any event, which he can't remember in the

Old Testament there was there was someone who's going to take Abraham's wife and an appearance came to him and God stopped him.

He says I've kept you from sinning So he stopped us in people say well this

What about free will well, let's talk about free will how much free will

Did Nebuchadnezzar have after he got the Lord's Prayer wrong? It was centuries in advance when he says mine is the power the kingdom the glory and and God You know what?

God didn't do was come to him and in a vision and say look

I Know I I'm a gentleman I'll never violate free will so I have to have your cooperation

I need you to sign on the line that you'll allow me to make you insane for a while. Yeah, right

Can you fill out this form because I Would never violate your free will right?

I can't yeah, I've given you free will yeah Show me in the Bible where it says man can do anything he wants

Someone came back and he says well the Bible speaks of free will offerings. No, I bet that that's

No, no God is in the heavens. He does all he pleases the

Bible never says man is on the earth He does all he pleases many of the plans in a man's heart. It's the Lord's purpose that will prevail

We're only gonna walk out of this room if God allows it. Yeah, and if God allowed it he ordained it

Yeah, that's right. We don't know what he's ordained I don't know what tomorrow will bring in fact the scripture tells us

God does yeah And we're working out in time what he has purposed in eternity so when it comes to I want you to jump in but when it comes to The Ordination of all things.

Let's go right to the heart of it. The big issue is an emotional one For for many they say well if God has ordained everything think that through that means

God ordains Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell and they reject that out of an emotion, but you know, the

Bible speaks of it The word predestination is a biblical word. Absolutely is and God has elected a people

Okay, let's break it down. Let's say there's someone called Philip P Barnes.

This is just again made -up name Before God creates the world

Does he know that Philip P Barnes will exist? Yes. Yes. He does Does he know what kind of life he will have?

Yes. Yes. Does he know whether he'll hear the gospel or not? Yes. Yes. Does he know whether he'll respond to the gospel or not?

Yes. He knows this before Before the foundation before the foundation could why because all

Christians believe in God's exhaustive knowledge of the future There's nothing

God is learning. That's right he's not Confused about the invention of computers and now has to react that would be the heresy of open.

The is yes describing. Yes The open theist it's the idea that because it's not yet reality

God doesn't know of it But God knows the end from the beginning the Bible says.

Yeah before there's a beginning God knows the end So God knows the end of Philip P Barnes He knows before Genesis 1 and says let there be light

He knows that there will be a Philip P Barnes He knows whether or not he'll hear the gospel how many times he'll hear the gospel.

He knows Despite all of his wooing of that person whether or not he'll come to Christ or not right, and he goes ahead and Creates now does he create?

Knowing that Philip P Barnes will exist. Does he know where Philip P Barnes will go heaven or hell?

Yes Yes, he does. And so if this is not even a Calvinist Arminian Monogist Synergist debate.

This is just an orthodox view of God to say that God knows everything he's

Omniscient he knows all things past present and future for him to create

Philip P Barnes knowing that he will Despite all of his efforts even from the

Arminian perspective despite of all his efforts Philip P Barnes is actually going to go to hell

And he creates him anyway, he creates him anyway, so just throwing this thing out at the

Reformed world and say you you believe in someone who God who Who creates people knowing they're going to help as a

Christian if you believe in the exhaustive knowledge of God You believe that too. Yeah, that's right.

And that's what they don't face And so all Christians believe

I have not said anything controversial yet, right? That's right and the the

Arminians They they would look at us as Calvinist to use that term, but simply we believe in the biblical doctrine of election

That um, oh that that makes God unfair that makes him I've even heard something

I can hardly even quote this much less teacher But some have said the

God of Calvinism that makes God out into a monster which is horrific, but They would look at us and say that's not fair that you know

God would not even give someone a chance and that's so you're this Calvinism is mean it's hateful

It's it's an angry God and it's he's unjust that God would be on the

Calvinist God Would be unjust Well Laying aside that horrific reasoning for a moment

The Arminians Have the same problem that they accuse us of having because as you were just describing

The Arminian position all they're doing is kicking the can down the road Yes, a few years a few decades, maybe a lifespan whatever that is, right?

They're kicking the can down it would be better for Philip P Barnes if God knew that he was never going to accept

Jesus and go to hell It would be better and more kind of God from the Arminian perspective

To never have created him in the first place so You know our those

Arminian critics out there. You've got the same problem. They have the same problem You've got the same problem even

Jesus said of Judas, you know of one who would betray him It would be that better for him to have never been born.

Mm -hmm There's shit There's mystery in this but this is where we place the mystery

Where God has not revealed something? Secret things do belong to the Lord our

God and the things revealed belong to us I'm responsible for what he's revealed Not for what he hasn't revealed and God never takes time to spend a chapter and say

John I know you've got this question. Let me explain how divine sovereignty and humans responsibility work

So, you know, it satisfies you intellectually You you see both of those concepts sometimes in the same passage in the same verse yes, where where man is entirely responsible and God is absolutely sovereign and and You see

Jesus Rejoicing in the doctrine of election. He says I praise you father.

You've hidden these things from the wise and The mighty and you've revealed them to bait.

I remember saying Saying that scripture Jesus is actually rejoicing about the activity of God Hiding something when

God hides something you're not going to find it. That's it. That's right and Jesus rejoiced I thought I've got an intellectual and an emotional problem with it and Jesus rejoices in it.

What is he saying? that I'm not saying and You keep reading and in the same

Passage he says I thank you father. You've hidden these things from these guys But you revealed it to Babes and then he says come to me all yeah who are weary and heavy laden.

I'll give you so Jesus in Acknowledging and rejoicing in sovereignty and election then says

Here the gospel call everyone. Yeah And that's the objective God is sovereign.

Why evangelism? Yeah. Well, Jesus saw no contradiction God is sovereign and he knows who's going to respond and he's ordained who's going to respond and the means by which they respond is

The preaching of the gospel and you see it in the lips of Jesus. Yeah, and in that same passage

Matthew 13 You're right. It he burst forth into this praise of God for hiding things and And he says no one knows the son except the father and the father except the son except the one to whom

He wills to reveal him he chooses to reveal in one person says yeah, that's clearly election

Yeah, you can't you can't do enough hermeneutical gymnastics to get around Yeah, and then as you were just saying in the very next breath, yes

Come to me. Yeah, and there's no there's no next was now. Let me explain all this

It just states it just states and so what we have to do as Christians is rather than say well

I think this and I think that and the English, you know definition in a dictionary is this no

Go to Daniel 4 see see God's sovereignty in the life of King Nebuchadnezzar and God in Hearing the blasphemous

Cry of this human human and defiance of God. I own everything to me be the glory.

He says, all right. I Choose with my free will that you'd be insane.

You walk around the palace grounds looking like a Grazing cow. Yeah, right.

That's God's judgment. And again, he didn't have to get permission yeah, and you look at the will of man and the will of nations and that's a whole lot of free will you read

Psalm 2 God laughs at the free will of man Because he is the only one who has free will and here's the thing about choice

We always choose Jonathan Edwards brought this out From from scripture, but it's a it's a great insight.

We always choose according to our strongest desire the moment of choice Otherwise, we're insane.

Yeah, why did I just do that? Because I most wanted to do that rather than that, right? And and that's why we have a criminal court system.

Okay, you did something You can't just say look I Made the choice to shoot people, but it had nothing to do with me

Yeah, right. We choose according our desire and we are responsible for our choices yeah, and so why did you choose

Christ and The biblical answer is not because you worked out somehow who

Jesus was by your own self But God opened your eyes God saw you might have heard the gospel for the first time or the 38th time but God says this is a day

I open your eyes and you see the beauty of Christ and He was bringing you home that day because you were one of his sheep

From all eternity shepherd. Yes the sheep which by the way is the real meaning of John 10 27 my sheep hear my voice

Yes, it's not talking about God telling you where to go to have lunch one day That's that's the effectual called.

Yes. Yes, and So why are you in the kingdom and your neighbor is not it's it's it's it's only because three letter word

God Without the preaching of the cross without preaching the cross to ourselves all day and every day

We will very very quickly Revert to faith plus works as the ground of our salvation

So that to go to the old Fort Lauderdale question if you were to die tonight and and you were getting entry into heaven, what would you say?

If you answer that and if I answer it in the first person We've immediately gone wrong because I Because I believed

Because I have faith because I am this because I am continuing

Loved ones the only proper answers in the third person because he because he

They think about the thief on the cross and what an immense I can't I can't wait to find that fellow one day to ask him

How did that shake out for you because you were you were you were you were cussing the guy out with your friend

You've never been in a Bible study. You never got baptized You never you didn't know a thing about church membership and and yet and yet you made it

You made it. How did you make it? That's what the angel must have said, you know, like what are you doing here?

Well, I don't know what What do you mean? You don't know? Well, I cuz

I don't know Well, you know Did you

What Excuse me, let me get my supervisor think y 'all get their supervisor

Ranger So we're just a few questions for you. First of all, are you are you are you are you clear on the doctrine of?

justification by faith The guy said I never heard of it in my life and and what about Let's just go to the doctrine of Scripture immediately

This guy's just staring and eventually in frustration he says on on what basis are you here and he said the man on the middle cross

Said I can come And it's the power of the Holy Spirit moving where he wills which is

John 3 in the context of John 3 16 Jesus has made it clear.

The only way to be in the kingdom of God is he born again first regeneration God Takes out the heart of stone puts in the heart of flesh that beats now to know

Christ and He's talking to Nicodemus. You must be born again That was just one of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit you think with Nicodemus saying, okay

Well, how can this be entering into the womb again? Tell me tell me the eight steps.

I need to do right and Jesus gets even more mysterious And says the wind blows what it wishes

Hear the sound you don't know where it comes from. So is everyone who's born of the spirit. It's God's activity and God's activity alone that creates the

Christian Yeah, so that one day I didn't want Christ and eight minutes later.

I did. Yeah, that's right That's right. It wasn't my wits or else you've now got if that's not the case.

You've got something to boast about Absolutely. I know Armenians often accused

Calvinist of being arrogant but You know an arrogant

Calvinist should be granted. It's not always true, but it should be a contradiction in terms of the cause

I Would posit that the Armenian perspective is what is arrogant because from the

Armenian perspective I am smarter and wiser and a better person for choosing

Jesus than Philippi Barnes, mm -hmm because I had enough sense to choose

Jesus when Philippi Barnes did not because he got the same measure of grace that I did and Therefore if that's the belief the reason

Philip P Barnes is not in heaven and you are is because of something good in you and me

But as Calvinist we understand that there is nothing nothing in us we're not

Before Christ, we're not spiritually sick We're not in the spiritual ICU.

We're in the spiritual board. We're tag on the toe dead. Yes And the

Bible speaks of not just having a problem with hearing but You cannot hear we take those words we take those words seriously, why?

Can you not hear my words? It's because you're not my sheep. Jesus said that the people right in front of him.

Yep chanting Yeah, and We take those words serious blind

That's not just short -sighted, you know, it doesn't help someone We were talking earlier today about the difference between England and America in England We say torch in America.

We say flashlight, you know a flashlight a torch doesn't help a blind person That's right

That's what they need more than a torch and a flashlight. They need new eyes

The God of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe and we take that seriously we believe the

Bible actually means what it says that we're blind to the beauty of Christ and In context that's what second

Corinthians 4 is all about see the glory of God in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and the reason we find glory in the person of Christ is because God has opened up our eyes and The amazing grace song was born out of that understanding was blind.

But now I say That's the the biblical doctrine of election is should be the most humbling

Yes doctrine that there is because we understand that there's no nothing

There's nothing better in Justin Peters or John Sampson than Philip E Barnes, that's right anybody else.

That's right. We're not better. We're not wiser. We're not smarter It's it strips from man all of the credit and that's the thing is that Men and women want to have something to do with their salvation

Yes, they want to have something to do with it, but biblically we understand we have nothing to do with it any

We can take no more credit in our conversion than Lazarus could take credit in Jesus Bringing calling him out of the tomb

And it's always been this way Israel wasn't better than the other nations and we call them the chosen people and we don't think well, couldn't you just wait it around for the

English to arrive and Yeah No You read

Deuteronomy 6 it's not because you are this or that it's because I took I set my love on you

Did please God? Yes. Yes, and so The big question is why

Israel? Why the elect? Why me and I cannot find any reason biblically or Internally as to anything in maybe so I like that about you no,

I was a defying rebel and There was nothing in me that one I remember I talked about last time there was nothing in me that wanted the

Bible or the God of the Bible and now I Love the Bible and the God of the Bible what what has changed?

Yeah and You know going back to theologians sometimes use the term concurrence though.

Yes, the doctrine of God sovereignty is clearly taught you can't get around it and so is

The responsibility and accountability of man, we talked about Matthew 13 and And I was also want to read

Acts chapter 2. This is Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2 and we'll just for time's sake we'll read verse 23

This is Peter speaking preaching and he says this man, of course referring to Christ This man delivered over by the predetermined plan and for knowledge of God you

Nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death

Literally in the same breath in the same sense why was

Jesus crucified because he was he was crucified because it was the predetermined plan and For knowledge of God And he was put to death.

He was nailed to the cross at the hands of godless men Evil men they did so yeah was

Jesus crucified because it was a predetermined plan of God Yes was Jesus crucified because evil men put him to death.

Yes And there's not this next section let me explain that yeah, it's just it's just that here

That and that's what we have to believe it's not that we can fully wrap our minds around You know,

I can't I can't wrap my mind around how God from before the foundation of the world from eternity past chose a people for himself

Read John chapter 17 read the high priesthood prayer. I don't know how you get around election Just in John 17.

Absolutely. I've just preached on it recently We're preaching through the the gospel of John and and it's it's fathomless, but oh, yeah, it's it's

Almost redundant. He just keeps repeating any again. He keeps rejoicing in this thing that people oppose.

Yeah Yeah, but but it is it is entirely Amazing that God is sovereign and there's a whole lot of free will to use that phrase

That was extended to people to do what they wanted to do in the crucifixion of Christ and God planned it

Yeah, and God planned got planted. That's right You know the sovereignty of God and the responsibility and accountability of man

They're both taught Scripture teaches both. Yes, we believe both why because scripture teaches we don't say

I prefer one over the others As biblical Christians we should say I I'm not quite sure how to put these two together, which is what concurrence says.

It's the the sovereignty of God and the Responsible responsibility of man concur they happen at the same time in the same event.

Yeah But but but your point and the biblical point is it's there in scriptures staring us in the in the face on in so many

You think of the rolling of the dice, you know at a some casino

Scripture says Proverbs 16 33 The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from Yahweh from the

Lord So God is involved What well God is not?

Involved in everything that's the Old Testament way of saying God's involved in everything. That's that's right

That's the theology drawn out of the text You cannot throw the dice without and it being a four or five without God.

That's right that again Look at we didn't get that from addiction.

That's that's the book of Proverbs. Yeah, that's right We draw our theology out of the text of the Bible and the biblical

Christian says I submit to the scripture Yeah, that's right. And that in your right it in Proverbs 16 33.

That's not Away for us to divine God's will absolutely. Okay, Lord, if you want me to You know if you want me to marry

Sally let this dice be a four right Mary Susie. Let it be a five. You can't be married, you know, and then put

That's that's not Absolutely, because we've got biblical guidance elsewhere how to find the right mate

Yeah, and and the rolling of the dice is not the way but yeah And so even though we don't define

God's will this is not like some you know That's that's fortune -telling right? We're not talking about that.

But God is not this deistic God that is Removed from his creation.

In fact Hebrews 1 3 He upholds all things By the word of his power and and I have such a profound

That's gonna come out well profound understanding not profounders a profound Belief in and respect for and profound all of The power of God that I I'm not even

Comfortable saying and I know what people mean when they say things like this, but it you know God really we need

God to intervene here. Mm -hmm And we need God really intervened in this situation, you know

Because to say that God intervenes is to imply that most of the time God is up in heaven

He's just kind of twiddling his anthropomorphic thumbs without a whole lot to do And every once in a while, I see something.

Well, I need to intervene intervene here and get that back in order that every

Every atom in the entire universe is being held in its proper place By the constant exertion of God's power

And I tell people if God were to ever stop working even for a nanosecond If he were to ever take a break and just not working

We would all vaporize. Yes, we would see she's holding us all together

Yeah, holding everything together. Yeah, and yet, you know His sovereign decree over everything is to create everything but he is not

He's not the author of evil. Mm -hmm. Oh How can you say he's to create everything and yet he's not the author of evil because the

Bible teaches that yes He's not the author of evil. He he's not the author of cancer or arthritis or Someone getting killed in a car accident or you know a child dying is not the author of that But he is sovereign over it.

Yes, that's what a lot of people don't like that. Yeah, it makes them really uncomfortable John. Yeah What would well they people say that sounds like determined and it determinism

Which is this? impersonal force what we're saying is

There's a purpose For evil evil is evil but what you're left with without this understanding of sovereignty and we could define it as Providence and A good word.

It is a great word What we mean by that is God has ordained all things for his glory

Romans 11 36 From him and to him and for him.

It's it's it's All things yeah to him be the glory if any part of that opening statement is not true

Then he doesn't get all the glory. That's right. And so the opposite of that is purposeless evil

Is that going to be more comforting to say to someone? Your child has died.

It didn't make it to the second month, but God had nothing to do with that It Trying to get

God off the hook But I love as a pastor now with my understanding drawn from the scripture to say, you know, we don't understand this

But God has a purpose Mom God has a purpose right now and you can glorify him by your response right now

But it's not like there's this weak God who tried This week this word of faith.

God is a weak God because unless you get all of your Ducks in a row you could have your son die because of something you did and God had to say

I had my two hands tied The God of the Bible intervenes. Did you use that that word?

Rarely Because he's functioning as God and supreme and sovereign and providential ruler all the time

Yeah, and so There's a quote I wanted to bring to the table here of Spurgeon where he says there is no no attribute more comforting to his children than that of God's sovereignty under the most adverse

Circumstances in the most severe trials they believe that sovereignty has ordained their afflictions

That sovereignty overrules them and that sovereignty will sanctify them all there is nothing

Talk about a super superlative There's nothing for which the children of God more or more earnestly to contend than the doctrine of their master of all creation the kingship of God over all the works of his own own hands the

Throne of God and his right to sit upon their throne then he says on the other hand There is no doctrine more hated by worldlings there.

He's talking not only of people in the world, but worldly minded Christians Yeah, no truth of which they've made such a football something they kick around as the great stupendous

But yet most certain doctrine of the sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah men will allow

God to be everywhere except on his Throne so hear that if God has

The comfort I can bring as a pastor to someone is to say rather than God had nothing to do with this

That the fact your child has cancer. Let's say it's to say that God has ordained this and he's also the one of you know, or overrule this and Should your child die?

He's going to bring eternally good purposes out of it That's right, even though cancer is an evil even though sin is an evil

We're talking about real -life people and real -life events to say that God has ordained everything

We're actually taking that on board because the scripture does and God doesn't hide and say, you know

I didn't have anything to do with it. I'm a really just nice God God didn't just have to let the devil bring the flood

Yeah, right. That's right. That's right. Yeah God brought. Yeah. Yeah, and he takes ownership when someone is born with Crippling conditions or they've got great eyesight

He says is it not I the Lord that does this right? X is for verse 11 who has made man's mouth who makes him dumb or deaf or seeing or blind is it not?

I Yahweh, are you getting that from a dictionary? No, no and say that so, you know,

I've watched well, you know, Andrew Womack and he stayed in this home But Andrew Womack gets his

Definition of sovereignty from the dictionary He literally opens up the dictionary and he reads the dictionary and I know some of you thinking but God is sovereign

You know, I just happened to write down The dictionary definition of sovereign.

Let me read this to you Here's what the dictionary says if you use it as a noun the word sovereign means chief of state in a monarchy

When you use it as an adjective, it's talking about paramount or supreme

I believe that God is paramount and supreme. He's the top of the food chain

Don't get your theology from Noah Webster. I Mean get your theology from Scripture.

You can't Open up a dictionary and start getting your theology from there and You know

Even with even with theological terms, for example, let's take this verse as an example the word repentance in the

Greek metanoia When you look at it in Greek the definition of the Greek term it means to change your mind and it does

But when you look at it in context, it means so much more than that You know, you can't get you cannot derive your full understanding of a term in Scripture simply from the dictionary

Especially not from an English Noah Webster dictionary But you can't even always get it from looking at what the word itself means

You know in a lexicon or something to look up and that's a good thing to do etymology study the word

Yes, but metanoia is a great example. You look at how it's used in context It it does include a change in mind, but it's so much more than that.

It's John the Baptist therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance Paul to King Agrippa in Acts 26

So King Agrippa I kept declaring that all men everywhere should repent and perform deeds appropriate to repentance.

So it's It's not just changing your mind intellectually it includes that but it's more than that When God grants repentance, yes, our minds are changed

But our affections are changed our desires are changed everything about us has changed and there's

Fruit in keeping with repentance it results in tangible fruit. So it's all of that to say and I apologize if I was too long, but you

You can't just look at the dictionary definition of a term and say, oh I understand

Look and see how it is actually used in Scripture Yeah, and there's a science to Interpretation and I'm sure most people know the word hermeneutics the science of biblical interpretation

Hermeneutics is not Herman you takes it like a German soccer player, you know

There's a science and what you do rather than going to the English Dictionary, which is simply a record of How a word is being used in a given society.

That's all it is. That's right We ought to go to the scripture and say what does from Genesis to Revelation?

What does if we draw out the truth of what this book is telling us?

How does the Bible define sovereignty and it's not? The supreme one the one in charge the one who's the excelling one, right?

It's what it's the one it's the God of Daniel 4. That's right It's the God of Romans 9 and that was my issue that I could wake every month.

I pictured myself waking At a hotel room at the bottom of the

Mount Everest. This was just a man thinking opening the curtains and looking Yeah, Everest is still there

And and that's what you have to deal with with the God of the Bible He's sovereign over all things and it's the

Bible that tells us that yeah That you can't you might say look next

Monday. I'm going to Because the scriptures don't say that Because you don't know.

Well, I least I don't know I don't know this or that and who's who's doing this in the government work, but this

I know on Monday I will know God says you can't do that James 4. Yeah, right. That's the good that's drawing from the scripture happens to be

James 4 Yeah It doesn't mention the word sovereignty there, but you know what that's all about God's sovereignty.

You're right And you know some say oh, well some translations don't even have the word sovereignty

You know, well, guess what zero translations have the word Trinity in them.

I'll go say that You know, the Bible doesn't even have the word Bible in it. Yeah, exactly But on the front but it's only covered but yeah, it's not inspired to yeah, yeah, it's for Genesis 1 yeah, so it you know, you can't as such a it is such a

Sophomoric or yet. Yeah To say you would say hermeneutics 101 hermeneutics 101

Don't get your theology from a dictionary get it from the Bible just because a word may not be in some translations

It doesn't mean that concept is not taught Trinity is not Absolutely, you believe something other than the

Trinity you're believing in a different God than the God of the Bible Yeah, the word Trinity may not be in there.

But the concept is absolutely there's one God. There's three persons. Yeah And you know, and that's another example of something that we can't fully understand.

Uh -huh. The sovereignty of God the accountability of man God is one being in three persons each person distinct and fully

God and yet The Bible doesn't teach in three teach three gods.

That's right one God in three persons We're monotheists. We're monothrinitarians.

Now, I can't wrap my mind around that You know it it is it is this is what we call to use the term

An antinomy antinomy to seemingly mutually contradictory term or concepts rather They seem to be mutually contradictory and yet the

Bible teaches them this truth. And so we believe them to be true Yes, so I'm do you got responsibility man?

Yeah, that's an antinomy, but the Bible teaches both so we believe both God is one and yet he is a trying

God that seems to be mutually contradictory Emphasizing the word seems.

Yes seems to our to our little yes finite fallen finite minds That's why no human analogy works

When we talk about a Trinity Yeah if you're we're in the summer and so vacation

Bible school is coming up if you happen to be a vacation Bible school teacher and You're scheduled to teach me Please know the

Trinity is not like an egg Okay, the Trinity is not like a three -leaf clover the Trinity is not like water that can be liquid solid or vapor

Stop. Mm -hmm When God said to whom or to what will you compare me?

That wasn't a challenge The whole level is that there is nothing that you can compare

God to that's the point. Yes. God's not like an egg Okay to be a biblical Christian We're bumping into mystery all the time.

Absolutely. And so where are you gonna place the mystery? What we should do is Rather than place the mystery on everything so we can't know anything be kind of agnostic about who

God is and what he is and what we should do is find out what

God has revealed and Say it should be like like this Bible here his revelation of truth where he has

Closed his mouth John Calvin said we should desist from inquiry Mm -hmm, and that's a safe place.

That's right. And so we say, you know beyond that it's mystery and God hasn't revealed that but this is what

I know. I know acts 2. I know Daniel 4 I know Romans 9 and it says what it says and when

I wake up in the morning and open the curtains It's still gonna say it. That's right. That's right. And and John I for one am glad that The God I serve is not a

God that I can fully Comprehend because let me tell you something I could fully comprehend God then my

God would be a very small God. Yeah Charles Spurgeon said as well might a gnat gnat as well might a gnat

Seek to drink in the ocean So might a finite creature seek to comprehend the eternal

God. Yeah, so Yes, there's a mystery. I'm glad there is God has revealed everything that we need to know about him doesn't mean we fully understand everything

But we have everything that we need to know and everything that we do know that he has revealed is true

Absolutely. It's it, you know a father and a mother can be standing over The little bedside of the little baby that's born and the baby's not understanding everything that's being communicated.

But The baby is understanding the love and the warmth and the care of the parents that's what that's very real

It may not understand trigonometry on day three of his life But in time they will learn a lot more about the parents

But what has been communicated is real and what God has revealed to us is really even though He's communicating to us in terms only finite

People can understand. Yeah, he's the infinite if God just decided to talk about any subject to us and Talked on the level of his knowledge

We would not understand the thing. So he stoops. Yes, that's right to reveal truth to us

That is absolutely valid and true, even though there's times we say I get this but what about this and God says

Leave that with me. Yeah, and this is the the area where we leave it with him The mystery is outside of what he has revealed

But what he has revealed is that because God knows the end from the beginning did God? Know there was going to be a fall of man before he created man

Absolutely, every Orthodox Christian who believes in God's exhausted knowledge has to say yes, or else you've got a different God Yeah, that's right.

And so he's could he have stopped the fall answer Absolutely. Did he allow the fall?

Absolutely, so he ordained it absolutely and and they said yes, you're saying he ordained sin

Listen, the Lord Jesus Christ was a lamb slain not at the cross of Christ 2 ,000 years ago but before the foundation of the world why

God knew sin would be in the world and in need of a savior and Ordained the

Lord Jesus Christ ordained that the Lord Jesus Christ would be the Savior for real sin

He knew would happen. Yes, that's right and You saying that dog something in my mind because it's directly related to this.

We earlier read Acts chapter 2 That this man delivered over by the predetermined plan and for knowledge of God that word in the

Greek for knowledge prognostico To know before I know before him now

The Arminian say oh, well that is God looking down through the corridors of time

Just and he knows what will and will not happen. So well, no God didn't just look down through the corridors of time and You know, he's like he peering way down and well look at there.

Wow. My son is going to be crucified Mm -hmm It's not something that he's just Foreseeing in the future that he has no control over he ordained it and Now this is this is going to be a real challenge for our

Arminian friends dealing with this view of for knowledge It's just looking down through the corridors of time.

Not only Not only was the crucifixion of Christ foreknown prognostico

Jesus himself is Described as foreknown By God first Peter chapter 1 verse 20 speaking of Jesus for he was known before The foundation of the world known by whom known by the father

So you're this is for knowledge Prognostico So you're gonna tell me that God Looked down through the cores or corridors of time and he's what we're looking there.

I'm gonna have a son That's heresy This this he was known this that God has set his affections

Yeah, I didn't just look down the through the corridors of time and discover Jesus Jesus has always existed from eternity past and from eternity past God set his affections upon the

Sun in eternity past That even that scrambles my brain, but that's what scripture teaches.

Yes, so that is a very weak Weak view of for knowledge just looking down through the corridors of time

If you're gonna say that you have to say the same about Jesus we could talk a lot about the word.

No yes, and You Israel only have

I known Right among all the nations. It's not It's not yeah, it's not like I didn't know about the

Chinese But I'm I kind of knew about you it's only you have

I known in a redemptive love It's talking about setting is what Adam knew his wife

Eve and the result was a child. There was an intimacy and so the

The Arminian view of foreknowledge means that God knows our actions ahead of time

Right, can you bring that definition to that verse? You just quoted and saying that's saying that God the

Father knew that Jesus actions would be good That is so weak.

Oh, it's heresy. It's heresy. Yeah, it's heresy What it means is that God?

Set his love on his son Anything less than that is not what is drawn out of our

Bibles and the opposite I'm kind of an unusual fellow, but I I love the fact when

Though the scene is horrific where Jesus is is talking about Real people who will face

God's judgment and he will say I never knew you He's using that word.

No in the same way. I never knew you know, I never Charlie Giles no, I Know Didn't know about you know, it's saying

I never knew you in a redemptive way and I actually get comfort This is the silly part of me.

I get part of comfort because Arminian theology is actually destroyed not every

Arminian believes this but in terms of losing salvation It does not say

I knew you for eight years and then you blew it. That's right I knew you for a little bit of time.

I was my hopes were really high regarding you I knew you for no, there was never a time.

There was never a time I knew you and it's talking redemptively redemptively because and so that that's a redemptive word

Yeah, it must for knowledge is a redemptive. It is a redemptive word your friends hear that this is a redemptive word it is not just Intellectual knowledge those, you know in Matthew 7 oftentimes when

I find myself wondering When these people read those words from Jesus Many will say to me on that day

Lord Lord Did we not prophesy in your name cast out demons perform signs and wonders in your name and Jesus says

I never knew you sometimes I wonder I mean When Kenneth Copeland reads that or Benny Hinn or Andrew Womack or any of these who do they think?

Jesus is talking about if if not people in the signs and wonders that hold to that theology, but but Exactly what we're saying

John this is This knowing I never knew you this is not Jesus saying well

I had no idea you existed until I saw you. I had no I you know, and can

I see your ID? No, it's this is a redemptive knowing right

He does. Yeah, he does not say I didn't know what your actions were or would be

Again if there's there's a Consistency in scripture about what the word knowing means in their redemptive sense, which is where we find the word for knowledge used

Yeah, there's consistency and you you you we must gain a definition as consistent with all of Scripture It might be able to make it fit in a certain passage

But if there's 18 other passages where it won't fit you've got to reject it. That's right scripture interpret scripture.

Yes. Yeah, and so The biblical data informs us and gives us definition

Right, not an English dictionary. Not our thoughts.

We have to challenge our thoughts by saying, okay What does for new mean and it does not say he for new people's actions it for it talks about put me for new

People those whom he foreknew I remember reading that and thinking

I've assumed for 20 years as a Christian for knowledge means He knows what actions men will do but that's not in the text.

No, it's not those who before those people who people that Romans 8 there that that is what we sometimes refer to as the golden chain.

Yes redemption of redemption and Where the knowledge is redemption, that's right. That's right.

There's no place in that chain that you can you can break it. No These are links if you think of five links in a chain

That God forges these are actions of God God for new. He also predestined he called he

Justified he glorified all actions of God And it's not a reactionary

God here Right either in salvation or in world history, right?

That's the God of the Bible. That's right And it's it's it's so certain. I love

I love that text the golden chain of redemption because the last the last verb there

Glorified in the past tense. Yes now I Don't know about you, but I don't have my glorified body.

You don't have your glorified body We're not yet glorified. Mm -hmm. And yet it speaks of us

In the past tense as having been glorified Well, we're not yet glorified, but we are glorified because that is how certain that's how certain yes

It is so certain it is our redemption. Our calling is So certain it is more certain than the

Sun is going to come up tomorrow morning You know the East I would sooner expect the Sun to rise in the

West Tomorrow morning then for us to not One day realize our glorification.

It's that certain Absolutely. So so again, the God of the Bible is not this reactionary

God It says look things have gone wrong though this fall of man who ever thought that would happen.

Yeah What are we going to do angels? Let's synergize let's get a think -tank going

Gabriel you got any ideas what are we going to do? but You know, it's

Calvinist. They say that God ordained the fall. Yeah, because the Bible does Bible does

It's To have a Savior for a world that's not fallen.

I won't make no sense And so you've got a Savior for all day before the foundation of the world.

What's he saving people from? Right a lack of purpose right self -esteem. No from sin

Then he must have known that sin would occur. So he knew this that the fall would happen

So he ordained because he could have stopped it Right, he ordained the fall.

Yeah. Yes. He did ladies and gentlemen. The Bible teaches that that's right. That's right. And that's

Yeah, so many people are trying to get God off the hook for but God never attempts to get himself off the hook

Right at all on any level Amos chapter 3 this disaster befall a city and I not do it

That's God talking right there where the faith says No, you didn't that was the devil.

Yeah, and in fact a Quote here that I have from Andrew Womack talking about the sovereignty of God.

He says Referring to the sovereignty guy said God either does it or Satan has to come get permission from God now

He's saying that as in that's what we believe, you know people in our camp You know these people believe in the sovereignty of God that God either does something or Satan has to come and get permission from God To do it and he's mocking that when in actuality.

Oh Yeah, that Have you read Job chapter 1 lately?

I mean Satan has to Satan had to get permission from God and God gave him that permission and Satan Satan went and he struck from Job everything that he had but he did have to get permission from God Satan Satan does have power

John, but he's on a leash. Yes. Yes, and God is holding the other end of that. Yeah short leash

Yeah, so otherwise you've got a God isn't oh that's gone wrong. What can we do?

Oh The devil's done this what can we do a reactionary God reactionary God God doesn't react

To anything. There's no plan B For him to be a reactionary God it denies

His exhaustive knowledge. We're back to that again. Yeah, because He's not having to react as he knew it would happen and could have stopped any event

Yeah, and allowed it therefore ordained it So the devil has certainly done things in human history

He is an opposing foe. He Afflicts he tempts he does all of this

But not outside of the governing control and providence of God That's right.

And that's what the whole book of Job teaches Yes, the song the whole the whole point of the book.

Yeah is the sovereignty of God. Yeah, not the free will of man and God is

I heard I can't remember who I heard say this but Someone said it I didn't say but God is not a frustrated deity.

Mm -hmm He's not a frustrated deity Jesus Jesus said I came to seek and to save that which was lost

He didn't say I came to seek and to make salvation possible, right? Jesus didn't make salvation possible.

He came to save He will save his people from their sins absolutely Matthew 121.

Yes, you've got a the cross where Isaiah prophesying it says he shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied not frustrated the opposite of frustrated is satisfied satisfied, that's right and in the cross

The Savior was satisfied by what he was able to accomplish there.

That's right Rather than I This Philip P Barnes, you know yeah,

I've done all I can I I I try and That's what they think gets

God off the hook. He tried really hard and The the stubborn will of man prevented him.

Yeah Yeah That's right And so this as we've been saying this is

Twin truths and antinomy two seemingly mutually contradictory Things that are taught by Scripture and yet are both truth the sovereignty of God Election from before the foundation of the world that is true the responsibility of man the accountability of man.

That is true. Mm -hmm Why because Scripture teaches both? That that's a great point.

I think that needs to be emphasized Justin because you've got Sections of the church or sectors of the church where you'd say that they're sovereign eyes

All they talk about is the sovereignty of God. Yeah, and you've got others that are free will eyes

Right, and they not even call their church that sovereign churches and free will churches and the

Bible teaches sovereign free will in the sense of We do what we wish to do and none of the things we do is outside of the ordination of God And the

Bible teaches both things. It's hard for us to Combine in our heads to equal truths

You use the word antinomy and it's right the Bible Specifically teaches the sovereignty of God so clearly and it's defined the way the

Bible just describes it as him ordaining and ruling over all things

The way that you would speak about the smallest thing in the first century is Something like a sparrow they had no idea of microbes and neutrons and atoms and you talk about a

Sparrow falling to the ground and Jesus says that cannot happen apart from the father, right?

That what's that? The word sovereignty is not in that verse. That's right The word providence is not in that verse, but it's what's drawn out of the text of that verse is providence

Sovereignty it might be a bird that is seen or it could be a bird in a forest that falls to the ground

No one sees it Except God and God says not only did I see it? It couldn't even have happened outside of God That ladies and gentlemen is the

God of the Bible. You say where'd you get all the words sovereign? Talk about that incident of a sparrow falling to the ground and Jesus says you don't understand that without sovereignty.

That's right It's exactly right. So yes that the word, you know by many translations

It's not used somebody is but it but the Trinity is not used. So it's it but the concept is

Absolutely, there it is Unmistakable you you can't do as I said, I think early you can't do enough hermeneutical gymnastics

To get away from it. So again in the first century being God he could have confused everyone by saying

God in the flesh. I want to tell you about atoms and And Molecules and germs and No germ can be on your hand except Apart from the father in there, but they understood sparrows.

Yeah, that's right. Yep. They understood sparrows And I've often thought of what Jesus said when he said consider the lilies of the field

I even Solomon and yeah, and all the splendor was arrayed it like like one of these and I You know find myself thinking about that, you know

There's a part of me that wishes I could go back in time and talk to the people and say hey guys

You know what? Jesus just said that you have no idea Because one of these days way into the future they're gonna invent something called a microscope and where people are gonna realize just how dizzyingly complex

Even a lily is and yeah, I had no idea. Yeah, we have the benefit of yeah a little bit about yeah

Techno technological the simple cell is not simple. There's nothing simple about the simple.

So that's right Again, you know what we're talking about is the difference between a

God who? has limited knowledge and a God with all knowledge and every

Orthodox Christian believes in the omniscience of God If you really understand that you cannot help but believe in the sovereignty of God Yeah, the logical outworking of God knowing everything that could possibly take place that will take place and then saying

I Let it happen or I don't let it happen Which we've all agreed he's got the capability of doing right you end up with the biblical view of sovereignty

Which happens to be the reformed view? Yeah, that's right. And in John so many people have a

Caricatured understanding of sovereignty of the doctrine of election of Calvinism to use it together turn a lot of people wouldn't just say when they hear that term

Calvinism They all Mac to write it off, even though they don't understand what right but the caricatured understanding so many people think of Calvinism like this that God is up in heaven and there's this massive humanity that's

Trying to get into heaven and God's just got his anthropomorphic hand up saying no.

No, no. No, I'm not gonna let you okay Yeah, you in the back you in the in the green shirt. All right,

I'll let you in. No, no, no Yeah, okay you over there in the in the sweater. All right, I'll let you in That's what most people think about Calvinism that's not the biblical not a biblical the biblical picture is that all of humanity is running to hell

Just as fast as their little feet their little fallen feet will carry on because that's what they want

They love their sin They love the darkness. They hate the light while they're running.

They're firing arrows at the true God. Yes Yes So everybody is running to help us.

That's what they want. Yeah, they love their sin. They hate the God of the Bible their enemies with God and So God is

God would be entirely just to let every single one of us go to hell if he were to let every single

One of us go to hell he would have done none of us any wrong Yeah So if we acknowledge that that God would be entirely just to let all of us go to hell

Then how is any how is he any less just when in his mercy he reaches out?

And he he saved some He saved some he's obligated to save none of us absolutely chooses to save some does that make him any

Less just absolutely not Imagine the angels and the scriptures very clear

The rebellious angels they will not be one of them that are redeemed right

That the the righteous angels are not petitioning God and said look we demand equal redemption for angels

Because if you've given it to man, you must give it to angels They understand

The holiness of God. Yeah, they understand the justice of God and when

God is just By definition, he's not being unjust It's true you can't petition a court and say we need to get this judge off The bench, you know, we don't want in ruling as a judge anymore

Why why why get rid of this judge because every decision he makes is just Try that yeah, try that so God is absolutely just so no one in the universe will ever get injustice

But some will get justice and some will get mercy and even those who get mercy

Get mercy because of justice because God Injustice sent the

Son of God into the world to bear the sins of the elect

Who in that place received the justice they deserve which was his God the

Father's wrath That's right, which is what God saves us from in sending his

Son into the world Romans 5 verse 6 God demonstrates his love toward us in there while we were yet sinners

Christ died for us and it goes on to talk about being saved from the wrath of God and it was

God's idea to send His Son to save us from his wrath again When Romans 9 speaks of this of God's election

There's this objection raised of that the Paul anticipates what's going to be raised of That you know if it's not based on our actions

Not based on our will Romans 9 16 not based on our will here that here that our exit

Exertion are running but on God it has mercy man is also

Totally responsible, but God has mercy on whom he wills and Let's put it in business terms at the end of a year a lot of Businesses they want to give to certain charitable

Organizations or churches for tax write -offs and say you've got a very wealthy individual who wants to give a million dollars away

You know, we're not going to talk about the motivation of his heart, but let's say he wants to do that Ten organizations he wants to send a hundred thousand dollars to Okay, let's picture that in our mind that that's that's he doesn't have to do that and So when he does that There's not a legitimate

Thing an 11th organization can do to sue him and say look you owe us that $100 ,000 to God had no

Responsibility to give excuse me, the man had no responsibility to give Anything to to anyone.

It's right And so when we talk about the mercy of God the fact that there's going to be one person

Redeemed should blow our mind. The Bible says it's a number. No one can count. Yeah And all around the throne redeemed and again, no angels are going to be redeemed.

No, what happened to you angel? Well, I was a rebellious angel and and God became an angel to save me.

No God became a man God took on flesh to save the sons of men

Yeah, and it blows Angelic minds like it should ours. Yeah, and in all of this

No one ever get so the idea Calvinism is unfair.

No, no one gets unfair if we want We are all justice No, no and and Justice is we all go to hell.

That's right. And Because we are evil man's heart is evil Well, you've got a very low view of man.

No, we've got a biblical view of man since the fall The heart of man is evil. How many texts declare that?

It's all over the heart of man is not just this little tendency towards evil

It says it's it's evil above all things. You know, how is desperately wicked?

Yeah, and On a civil level man is capable of much good not every one who is unsaved is

Incapable of helping elderly people cross roads giving to charity lots of nice things, but it's on a civic civil level but in the terms of Looking up and seeing how

God views things Romans 3 still says what it says open the curtain window and Romans 3 will still say

What Romans 3 says tomorrow? There is none that do good. No, not one. Yeah. Are you you're speaking?

In hyperbole sport. No, it says no Not one get it and he's quoting the Old Testament and then

Romans 3 goes on to say This is the universal condition of man

This is not just some people in society that the criminals out there.

This is all of our Condition before a holy God God says there's no one who's good

Yeah And it's on that basis only when we get that we get to the good news of this is what

God does now for Rebellious evil people. Yeah, that's right. And unless you understand that you don't understand

Romans you don't understand the gospel and and so what are you gonna fill your church with if you

If you teach that man's basically good. You just need to tweak a few things it's kind of you know get you that's kind of happy you turned out as well as you have yeah, and Here this message.

You'll give you a pep talk for the week. All right, but don't call that a church Yeah, you've got a crowd but you haven't got a church

Sorry a church can only come about because it's a supernatural organization because God makes

Christians God has sheep who love the voice of the Shepherd, right?

And so the preacher the pastor gets up and he says what the scripture says Knowing that only the sheep will like it.

That's right, but he's after sheep. That's right That's right. And so if there's a sheep or 800 sheep or 8 ,000 sheep, he's just happy.

There's sheep What he doesn't want if he's a godly pastor is Lots and lots of goats the goats.

Yeah, and he's not there to entertain goats. Try and get goats. What will bring goats back? Yeah That's why there's so many churches that follow the secret sensitive movement whether it's

Joel Osteen whether it's Ed Young jr. Whether it's Stephen Furtick You know fill in the blank that turn their churches into places of entertainment

You know You've got to come up with some gimmick for this week to outdo the gimmick that you had last week

Yeah to keep entertaining people because you're trying you're as Spurgeon said we're

We're we're not feeding sheep or entertaining goats. He said that a hundred and you know, whatever 50 plus years ago, but Sheep want to be fed.

Yeah, those want to be entertained Yes, and so when you look at these secret sensitive churches, that's those aren't churches.

They're goat farms I don't say that to be mean but it's but it's true Are you sure you're just not jealous?

Well, that's what I've been accused of, you know, I'm here, you know people this size of their ministry. Yeah, that's it

You're too old. No, I would literally rather have eight sheep than a thousand goats.

Oh my goodness. Yeah I'm so not jealous Knowing knowing what they will have to give an answer for one day

Whether it's the false prophecies whether it's the dilution of the gospel whether it's the twisting of Scripture not handling the word of truth rightly

Making your church into a place of entertainment and making it look like the world and having to give an answer for that.

I Am not jealous in the least Of those people I recently brought a message to the church about the vision of Kings church and I said it this is really gonna excite the sheep.

I said this week We're dealing with verse 8 in the passage and guess what next week.

We're gonna start with verse 9 And What you're not gonna give this away and that away and and Not we're that's it.

And that's all I got And the sheep. Yeah, I've been longing for this.

I want to know the true God and Sprawl, I'll see sprawls point is is that in much of the church?

There's been an eclipse of God and he makes the point that in a solar eclipse something's being obscured

Mm -hmm, and Someone came to it sprawls as I I honestly believe our preacher She said is trying to withhold from us the the revelation of the true

God Yeah, yeah, that's right because he's offensive. Yeah, he's on the throne

He rules We want to say I'm can I have a God it'll help me get this achieve this be this

That's right. And God says I'm on the throne and this is my gospel The gospel of the kingdom of God.

Yeah that I'm willing to govern the human white race that best That's not what you're gonna hear at these churches

Yeah, God is willing to govern rebel sinners, that's right

Sorry, can we change the channel, right? Yeah, and that is exactly what makes the gospel so Powerful is that it's not

What people lost people to unregenerate? It's not what they want to hear.

Mm -hmm, you know Lost people as I said earlier, they have a religious itch that they want to scratch and they want a

God Made after their own image, but they don't want the God of the Bible. They don't want the God who says deny yourself

They don't want the God who says Take up the cross meaning be willing to die for the gospel

They don't want the God that says put to death the deeds of the body They don't want the God that says for to you it has been granted not only to believe in him but to suffer for his sake

They don't want the guy who says all who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted That's not the message that unregenerate people want to hear

But that is exactly what makes the gospel so powerful is because it is only the sheep who want to Who will respond to that the goats will not respond to that and it's so powerful that even under persecution

God can grow a church a Real church with a message of dying to self.

Yeah, right It's totally supernatural. That's why Someone who just thinks

I've got oratory skills or I can do this because of I've done some business

Marketing. I know what will bring a crowd in God says what are you talking about?

No What what we need are people like yourself who will who and others that God has raised up and is raising up.

We'll say This is what the Bible says and the sheep are going to love it. And I know ahead of time the goats won't and You you only see that in personified in the

Lord Jesus he told them the people everything his father told him to say and You you read

Jesus he didn't just sneak in election once in a while and then say election and now

Sometimes this whole message was that John 6 was all about it all about it. Yeah, and most folk walked away and he says are you gonna go to to his own disciples and Peter said you have the words of eternal life and We have to make a choice don't we

Who do who do we really want and The cry of the Christian is the true

God the true God and nothing else and When you and I because We will be glorified because he speaks of us as in the past tense, which is the point you brought out

When we see Jesus face to face, that's all that's all we want. Yes We're not we're not going to be talking about hey, let's look at our mansions that nice to see you

Jesus Yeah, it's it's him face to face Wouldn't it be horrendous if we get to heaven and there's an announcement

Jesus is is away from the throne right now but leave a message or Leave it.

Jesus is away. He's creating other galaxies for what we've got some great entertainment for you We just want to see him.

That's right. We just wanted the real Jesus That's right. And it's not the Mormon Jesus or a made -up

Jesus or a Jehovah's Witness It's the Jesus of the Bible and it's the God of the Bible.

We're gonna see and it's the God of the Bible who inspired Daniel 4 and Romans 9 and Acts 2

Yeah, the verses you brought out. That's the God of the Bible. That's that's who we're gonna see for all eternity

Not someone who's different from what he's revealed here Amen, so rather than going to a dictionary

Yeah, we start here and we end here. That's right It's the it's the Holy Spirit of God who determines the meaning of a word not the dictionary

It is the Holy Spirit God who puts the words of Scripture together It's the context that determines the meaning he is the

Holy Spirit is the one who puts those words in their context He determines the meaning of a word ie

For knowledge. Yeah election. Yes Predestination. Yes penance. The Holy Spirit determines the meaning of those terms not

Which is why he then says study to show yourself approved. I've got rightly dividing the word of truth second

Timothy 2 15 because by study Not by tradition.

You'll try you'll understand the true God What we what is tradition?

Well, some say it's this some say it's that well You never know because godly people on both sides of the aisle

You know disagree not know study and you'll know Not study and it'll become more vague and now we study for clarity we study for the sake of gaining clarity so that we study the word for knowledge like you brought out and We are to submit to the revelation of Scripture or we stay with our tradition

And I've had that choice you've had that choice and the fact that we come out saying thank

God for deliverance from my former understanding because I Had such a low view of God a shallow view of God I'm coming away with an aura of God that I never had before and it's born out of the scripture and submitting to the scripture it's like What why if there's a

Sedona out there and a Grand Canyon out there just in the state of Arizona Would you be satisfied?

Just staring at a brick wall. Mm -hmm The compact there's no comparison. I don't want the brick wall.

I want the view of God that's biblical Yeah, and if that takes me To the

Reformed tree and find out that theologians been waiting at the top of the tree for a long while That was my experience like I Thought I knew better.

I thought The the ideas they were articulating were past their sell -by date we got over that No, it's it's the

God of the Bible and when You you you sit and you read some of these gifts to us which are the gifts that God has given through the centuries of men

Ephesians 4 It's not just the people in our own day that the pastor John MacArthur.

It's it's it's the Luther's. It's the Spurgeons. It's the Athanasius it's it's these gifts to the church, you know, the list is almost endless who've sought the scripture and they've spent five decades in the scripture and Certainly, shouldn't it be humility to say before we move on and just have me and Jesus in Under a tree because God was being waiting for me so they could reveal new truth

Which is where you start getting the heresies and the cults and oh, yeah all of that Doesn't humility say before I move on Can I just learn what he learned in five decades because he wrote some things down But tell me about God and where I can see what he gets up from scripture.

We should say wow That's great insight where he goes off because they're not infallible We say

I can't go with you there scripture doesn't seem to go with me there But we're foolish if we just think church history started 30 years ago or with my birth

It's actually highly arrogant Oh, yes, totally arrogant and so when the greats of church history

This was my understanding When they may not agree on every minor point of doctrine

But when when the greats as God used them, we're all agreed on sovereignty. Yeah Shouldn't humility say why do they believe it?

Oh, I mean shouldn't humility say what text did they ever go to? Yeah, and in my realm of the charismatic word of faith, none of us read these guys

No, none of us zero, right? It starts with me and My Bible and my personal relationship with God and that's a valid thing, but it

Humility says doesn't God have a relationship with others, too And God doesn't he?

Hasn't he given teachers to the church through the ages and now isn't it for my profit? Isn't it for my maturity?

So humility to say is it should say What does scripture say and what is

God as in his gifts to the church? What is he revealed about what scripture says and when you when

I found out that these guys All they ever wrote about was scripture seemingly

You read these guys and it's scripture scripture scripture scriptures. Yeah, and you think

How foolish I've been to think It's just me and Jesus right when when

God Got it God through the scriptures a son, my son

John I've given you gifts take advantage. It impoverishes your soul to be left to yourself and what happens between your ears and So search the scriptures if you read

Daniel 4 and you say, you know what? It's got nothing to do with the song. They've got All right, go for it.

But guess what when you open the curtain the next day, you know what? It'll still say what it says. Yeah God's Word doesn't change.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's we were talking off -camera If you were to take choose a thousand people at random out of John MacArthur's church and then choose a thousand people at random out of Lakewood church

Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland's church or Stephen Furtick's church or Andrew Wong's church and in in do

Bible drill with those two different groups, which group do you think would have a Better understanding of Scripture a deeper theology

It would be no question, I mean it would be it would be the most lopsided contest ever and so Our knowledge of God is only as deep as our knowledge of Scripture That is how he that is how he has revealed himself if you do not understand

I mean the more we understand Scripture the more we understand and know God and so It's it speaks for itself.

It really does and God has given teachers in the church for a reason I would say just to jump on that.

I would look back and say in my involvement in the Word of Faith We were favorite word people

Not word of God people. We have our favorite texts. Oh, yeah taken out of context

Right, and there was no desire. Yeah, there was no desire to look at that Can we look at that verse in context and see whether the devil is actually mentioned in John 10 10?

Yeah Yeah, I see. He's not that's right. Yeah, it's false shepherds.

Oh The devil comes to kill steal it. Can we can we get that? They're not even interesting going there

Yeah, right When I was teaching through John 10 is is it's so clear what it's actually say when you read it in the context

And again, I just love it when people's eyes are open see wow you see it in all full color

It's blazing glory. It's but we had our text John 10 10. I remember hearing people said that's my theology right there

Yeah, okay. Well, can we look at John 10? No, it's right don't

Let's not let the Bible get in the way of our theology Well, John we should probably

Begin to land the plane here, but I want to thank you so very much For having this discussion.

I think it'll be by God's grace. I think it'll be a help to a lot of I pray Well, and because because I've been helped that's been encouraging for me

Iron -sharpens are and I love to talk talk things of the Lord.

Thank you very much Dear ones if you happen to be in the Phoenix area and you're looking for a good church

King's Church in Peoria King's Church az .com. Yes, I've got that right off memory

King's Church az .com and I Just want to close with the gospel real quickly

Has there been a time in your life? When you have been convicted by the Holy Spirit of God that you are a sinner that you have broken

God's laws You're a liar. You're a thief Taking something that doesn't belong to you or you're blasphemer

We blaspheme God's name and word and deed you an adulterer at heart at least

Jesus says whoever looks at a woman with lust has committed adultery already in his heart if you have done those things

And you have because all of us have Apart from Christ you are under the judgment of God you are under his wrath

And if you die in your sins, you will very rightly very justly go to a very real place that the

Bible calls hell The worm will not die. The fire will not be quenched Wailing weeping gnashing of teeth forever and ever.

That's the bad news. That's what you deserve. You deserve hell That's what your sins have earned you But the good news of the gospel is this is that God loves you and God has made a way for you to escape

His wrath. He sent his son Jesus Christ to this earth lived fully

God fully man Never broke any of God's laws. He was the lamb without blemish in Jesus willingly laid down his life on the cross this perfect person

Offered his perfect life as a perfect sacrifice to perfectly satisfy the perfect wrath of God Died on the cross three days later bodily raised from the dead proving himself to be who he said he was

God in human flesh And the only way to be saved to have the wrath God removed

Is to repent of sin turn from your sin and place your trust in what

Jesus Christ did on the cross You cannot save yourself. Your works are as filthy rags.

They will profit you nothing lay your works down trust in Christ Repent of sin turn from sin

Ask yourself has there been a change in my life? As are my desires different have my affections changed.

Do I love what God loves? Do I hate what God hates? Do I love the brethren? Do I have a desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ? Is there a decreasing pattern of sin in my life? Is there an increasing pattern of holiness all of these are fruits and keeping with repentance?

And if you're not sure of where you are in your relationship with Jesus Christ, I would encourage you To get real honest before God confess your sins to him

Cry out to him ask him to forgive you ask him to grant you repentance and faith And if you will truly come to Christ in a humility in it in what the

Bible calls a godly sorrow over sin When you grieve over your sin Not just wanting to escape hell.

That's good. And that's right You should want to escape hell, but just as much as you want to save you from hell

You should want to save you from sin And if you will come to Christ in that godly sorrow over your sin

He will save you Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest

Jesus will not cast you aside if you come to him in brokenness Cry out to place your trust in Christ.

You will save you you'll pass from death to life and that Is the good news of the gospel?

All right, dear ones, thank you very much for joining us John, thank you brother pleasure Till our next time together may the grace of our