Serving God and Country with Chaplain Geoffrey Bischoff

On today's episode of Conversations with a Calvinist, I'm welcoming Chaplain Jeff Bischoff. We're going to be talking about his service in the military, and more important, his service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now. Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist. And I am excited today to welcome my new friend and first-timer to the show, Jeff.

Jeff, how are you doing today?

God is good. It has been an intense day of ministry today. I don't know if we're going to talk about that, but it's been a rough day, but God remains on the throne.

Amen. Amen. Well, I introduced you before the show, but I'm going to go ahead and talk a little bit more. You are a United States chaplain in the Army. True. And you're currently serving, so you're an active-duty chaplain, and if I'm correct, you just told me before the show you're actually serving at Fort Leonard Wood.

Is that correct?

That's right. 31st Engineer Battalion, where we train the finest engineer soldiers in the U .S. Army. Awesome.

Awesome. What's interesting about that from a historical perspective is I used to be a youth director before I became a pastor, and one of the young men that I knew, and he came up through our youth group, went into the Army, and he actually graduated from Fort Leonard Wood.

I went to his graduation. So I have been where you are. My dad drove me there so that we could go and watch him graduate and drove me back. We were there and back in three days. I don't even know how he did it.

It was amazing. My dad didn't even sleep. He just got us there. We watched the graduation. We shook his hand, and we were headed back home. But yeah, it was pretty amazing. But yeah, so I'm a little bit familiar with where you are, and like I said, I asked you to come on the show today because recently we had a mutual friend on the show, and his name is Jake Korn, and Jake is a United States chaplain as well, and he and I talked about the subject of patriotism, and you and I are going to talk a little bit more about that subject, but not so much just patriotism, but actually serving the Lord and serving in the military, which I understand is a pretty difficult thing to do.

Yeah. If there was an award for understatement of the year, you might possibly get it right there. Can I talk about Jake for just a second? Yes. That's what I was, yeah. Definitely. Go ahead. Dude, Jake is a man that I have never met in person, but we've interacted online since 2017.

We're a mutual in-person friend of ours, attended a school out at Fort Jackson that he was at around that time, 2017, late 16. Since that time, though, I've never met Jake. He has been a true brother in Christ, an aid to ministry.

At times where I needed a quick sounding board to stay sane in ministry, I was detached from the world. He's been an ever-present friend in that, so may the Lord grant that we someday meet in person.

It hasn't happened yet, but he is a true brother in Christ, a true ally in the fight, and we've been in the trenches together, though we've never breathed air in the same room. God bless you, Jake.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir, and God bless both of you for what you're doing. I also wanted to mention this, and I think I've told you this before, but I have a son who is serving in the United States Air Force.

Don't give him too hard of a time. I know it's the branch that everybody gives a hard time. As brothers, everybody gives each other a hard time, right? The joke is the stars are used to tell the Army what position you are, what rank you are, but in the Air Force, it's the hotels that they're staying in that are the stars.

I said it, so you didn't have to. He's out at Spangdelum, right? Yes, he's in Spangdelum, Germany, and by God's grace, he's going to get to come home soon, and we'll get to see him and spend some time with him and looking forward to that.

What I was getting around to is having men like you and Jake, who are not only brothers in Christ, but who are also men who are legitimate Christians in a world where there's a lot of ishy-squishy stuff when it comes to faith, and I'm sure there's a lot of variations in what people believe and what people teach, knowing that Jake is a Reformed Baptist.

You told me you're Reformed as well, right?

Yeah, I'm a confessional 1689 Reformed. That's not the precise position of my ecclesiastical endorser. If that doesn't make sense to you, we can talk that later on in the military thing if you care, but yeah, I'm 1689 all the way.

Yeah, absolutely, and I actually do know a little bit about that because Jake and I have talked about his endorsement, where it comes from, and all those things, and I understand why that matters, but why you might be a little different on that.

I can say I'm not the only Calvinist on the show today.

That is true, man. If there were seven points to Calvinism, I'd be an eight-point Calvinist.

Okay, so you're not one of the ishy-squishy Calvinists who would say, I hold a three points or two points or one point. You're a full tulip man. I am no Amaraldian. That is true. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome.

Conversion, False Profession, and Regeneration

Well, tell me about that. When did you come to know the Lord? When did He save you, and was it in a Calvinistic church, or did you become Calvinistic later?

It was categorically not. Oh, bro. Wow. So you want to go back to the 80s, or what? Have you been a Christian that long? I have not, but I've been in church that long.

Good answer. Good answer. I know what you mean, because I grew up in church, too, but I didn't get saved until I was 20. So yeah, I get it.

Amen. I spent a lot of time. I got a fully-kitted strength training gym in my garage, spent a lot of time in my garage either lifting or coaching other people. At no time, lifting in my garage, have I become a Subaru, right?

That's right. I sat in church for a long time. It did not make me a Christian. I believe the true church consists of God's people and Jesus Christ, but just because you're sitting in a place that calls itself a church that might include some of God's people, I was not, categorically not, one of them, though I hope that nothing I say tonight casts any shade on my parents, who are sweet believers, did their very best to raise me with Christian values, with a true sense of right and wrong.

They took me to church, and rightly so, but I got baptized, I professed faith, but I was not a Christian. Yeah. I was a false... If you ever use the Ray Comfort lingo, I guess, I was... When I heard Ray Comfort in, oh, about 2009, and he started talking about false comforts, I'm like, holy crap, that dude is talking to me prior to two years ago.

And I showed it forth radically in my teenage years, slipped into a life of depravity, showed myself on Regenerate. At one point, I got all the way to where I was professing atheism. Oh, wow. And that brings me from my birth in 1977 to about, say, late 2006, so I'm like 29, 30.

So that's the stage setting, and that probably bores almost everybody but me, as most of our life stories do, but that's how I got where I got. No, absolutely.

I love to hear life stories. In fact, that's why I wanted to hear that, because it helps paint a picture, not only of who you are, but it also helps paint a picture of how the Lord has worked and is working in your life, and that's a big interest of mine, is to hear, because I have different people on the show.

Sometimes I have, like you, a chaplain, I've had people who aren't Calvinists, so we talk about our differences. I love to hear everybody's story and how they are, where God has them. And so I do want to clarify, though, because so you said up until two years ago you were a false convert, or up until two years ago you didn't realize you were a false convert?

Oh, no, no, no.

I must have missed a step. We're going back to 2006 -7 here. I was a false convert from probably about, oh, I'm guessing here, but about 1987 until about 2006. By that time, I drifted all the way into professing atheism.

It was in 2008, early, approximately February, I know there's some folks who can like sign a date in their Bible or whatever, but there were no days and dates in Iraq, man. I was in Iraq in February of 2008 when the Lord radically saved me, and I went from some flavor of atheist-diagnostic to a very poorly educated Christian, really just that quick.

I understand. I understand. And it was, I guess, like you said, later you heard Ray Comfort and heard him talk about it, and that's what made sense, or was it then, or?

Yeah, yeah. So that's like seven, so that's where you got the two-year idea. Like 2009 -10, I was listening to Ray Comfort, and I'm like, wow, that was me two years ago. Oh, I got you.

I got you. Okay. I was just, sorry I got my time frame there mixed up, because when we talk about recognizing that you're a false convert, that's a big deal for me, because I do think that there are churches that are filled with people, just like Ray says, there are churches that are filled with people who confess some version of Jesus Christ, but they're not saved.

And they're sitting in churches right now, hearing the Word of God, and it's going in one ear and out the other. They're not genuinely saved. And the saddest thing is people who would demand that they are saved.

I mean, I've had conversations with people who show no evidence of the fruit of the Spirit, and yet they would say, but I've been in church this whole time. I know that I'm saved. Yeah.

Yeah. So that was me, except by the time of 2006 -7, early eight, I wasn't even pretending to go to church anymore. I was, but yeah, that was, for a time, that was me, still showing my face in church, still professing a belief in Christ.

And look, if I place blame other than on myself, it's going to be on the ministers of that church, who, when I asked, right, I've come to a more nuanced and Lord-willing, mature understanding of like, say, Hebrews 6 at this point.

Sure. But at that time, like they told me, read your Bible and holy smokes. I think God led me in the Spirit because the Spirit both convicts the world of sin and comforts the believer, right? I think in my unregenerate state, the Spirit led me to Hebrews 6, you know, four and following.

I took it to my youth pastor and I'm like, dude, this sounds like me. And the youth pastor's answer at the time was like, hey man, and I'm going to paraphrase this a bit, but this is not far enough from true to be slander.

Okay. The answer I got was approximately, did you pray the prayer? Did you mean it when you prayed it? Stop worrying, bro, was approximately the answer that I got at that time. Wow. Wow.

And I know so many people who would say that very thing. Did you mean it? Did you, did you pray it? Did you mean it? Yeah. But, but did it change your life? Has Christ changed your life? That, that's, that really has become the sort of the, the way that we ask people when they come to the church and they, and people say, like, let's say somebody wants to transfer their membership.

They come visit us. They want to transfer their membership and they come. The first question we ask is not, did you pray a prayer or have you been baptized? The question is, has Christ changed your life and how has Christ changed your life?

And, and that's what we want to know is because again, people, people live the same life they lived before and yet say they, well, I prayed a prayer. So, you know, that's, that's the change, but absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Yeah. I don't think that that's Pauline Christianity. I don't think that's a Christine Christianity. Christine.

Military Service, 9/11, and the Meaning of Command

Yeah. All right. So, so you've been in the military now. We talked about this before the show. You've been in the military through how many administrations. That you, you told me already, but I want, I want the audience to hear you started under Clinton, right?

Senator Bill Clinton, 16 September, 1998. So I'm coming up on an anniversary in a couple of months here. Oh, wow. Okay.

All right. And that would be, so that would be 22, 20, how many years? If you started in 98, 24 years? Coming up on 24.

Okay. And as that is a mix of active and guard, I'm not quite eligible to retire yet, but spoiler, even if I were, if the Lord keeps me healthy and doesn't break me, I plan to stay for another 18 years until mandatory departure date at age 62.

Oh, wow. Okay. So you're, so you're in it, in it forever. Now how, how, how does that work for your family? Are you, do you have wife, children? How's that? How does that operate? Yep. I got a, got a wife, Julie.

I started that late. We got married not long after I converted and we got three beautiful children. Now we named them chronologically through the Bible. We got a son named Asher, who's 10, Asher Levi, age of, age of the patriarchs.

We've got a daughter, Hannah Ruth, age of the Kings. She's seven turning eight this month. And we've got a son, Ezra Zechariah, age of the exile. And we had to stop there, never made it to the New Testament, but it's all good because we have a dog named Titus.

Okay. Well, that's cool. That's cool. Okay. So with your, through the administrations that you have seen and you have served, as I said in the introduction, you have served the Lord and you have served our country.

You have seen Clinton, you've seen Bush. You were in the military on 9 -11.

I was, and that, that is a story that's at least interesting to me, interesting to everybody else. So September 11th, 2001, I was very recently back from a Kosovo deployment. And I got to talk about Kosovo just briefly to say, we still send rotations to Kosovo, but when folks go to Kosovo, they can go out into the town without their weapons, without their protective gear, have coffee on the town, that kind of thing.

That was not my experience in, in 2000. We, there was still a ground safety zone, a legal NATO designated buffer between Serbia and Kosovo. We observed the Serbian, Serbian army. We reconned the Serbian army across the border.

We patrolled the GSZ. It was very much, it was a much different Kosovo than there is, exists now. And I came back from that. And I was on leave because I was getting out of the army. I was on leave in Cornwall, Southwest England, on a train with a, with a young Cornish lady who I did not marry.

Much to my, much to my blessing and possibly her irritation, although it may, this many years have gone by, I'm sure she's like quite happy that she didn't marry the idiot that was me in 2000, 2001. So we're on a train and September 11th, 2001, we get in a train wreck.

Our train plows through a lorry, which is, I guess what they call a semi-truck tracks. We stay on the rails. Nobody's hurt. Praise God. Not even the guy driving the truck, because it was his, it was his, his tractor trailer that got plowed and he had already gotten out of his cab.

And I got out of that, this tiny little village, we weren't in Roche, but some tiny little village in Cornwall, got out of there. And I remember thinking, this has got to be the biggest story in Southwest England, in the entire province of Cornwall today.

And I get into a van because the train company is providing vans to get us to our destinations. And I get in and I say something, I don't remember what I said, but it's quite obvious that I'm a yank. The minute I step into this van and a bunch of British heads go, whoop, and they say, you're a yank.

And I'm like, I am like, have you heard? I'm like, have I heard what? And they turned the radio on. And first thing I said was, you need to get me to a TV that's broadcasting live. So they, they drove me there and I spent the rest of the day staring at the TV.

I saw the second tower go down live. I still, I was watching it live enough that I still thought the first plane was an accident. I saw the second one go in and everything clicked in. I was, I was a junior enlisted man.

I had zero strategic idea. I'd studied a little bit of military history, but I was not a dude who understood strategy, but I knew we are about to go to war. And it will not be short. I didn't know it was gonna last as long as it did, but I knew as soon as I saw that things are about to change for the United States military for a long time to come.

So yeah, tiny little train wreck. Everybody's got a story of where they were on that day. Just like my folks have a story about where they were when Kennedy got shot, but mostly they're interesting only to the person that, that lived them.

So, well, no, I think that's real interesting though. The fact that you weren't, you, you know, most of the people that I know were here in the United States. I know. I mean, I was working for a bread company at the time I was delivering bread to a Publix and I come walking in the store with the bread and they said to me, Hey, did you hear about the, the plane crash in New York?

I said, no, I thought it was like a Cessna, you know, and by the time I get it, Oh, well, yeah, I know. But that, but that was the, you know, cause when they said a plane hit a building, I thought it was some, some foolish, you know, flyer, you know, somebody, I didn't think it was a commercial airliner.

And then by the time I get to the truck and was loading in the bread for the next round, it was obvious that we were under attack at that point. And my wife was actually in a 15 story building in Jacksonville working.

So I was the whole time just thinking, I want her out of that building. Cause I didn't know if other buildings were going to come down around the United States, you know?

Yeah. We had no idea at that time how widespread it was going to be. We didn't know it was going to be limited to the NCA. Yeah. Oh, I had no clue that day. And that next few days was just, wow, brother.

And then, and then trying to find a plane that was actually crossing, cause I was, I was headed back to, to Arizona after that, trying to find a plane that was actually heading back to America at that time, about, it was about five days later.

That was nuts. I slept in airports. I crammed in with the, the sweaty masses. It was just a weird time everywhere, man. Yeah, absolutely.

So you served under Clinton, you served under Bush cause that was during 9 -11 and then Obama, Trump, and now Biden. I don't know if you can say this without, without hurting yourself. So you can feel free to plead the fifth, but which administration do you feel like you have been able to experience the best in your, in your military life?

Who do you think was the best commander in chief? Are you allowed to say that?

So I have a significantly greater deal of freedom about what I can say as a chaplain than the average rank and file soldier can. So I have, I have no fear. What I say for the entirety of this interview, I say as a first amendment expression of religious freedom and I freaking dare you, whoever's watching to come after me for it.

I'm ready. No question. George Bush.

Oh, really? Okay. Well, that's interesting. So what was it about his administration that made you say that? What was what, I guess, I don't know if it's freedoms or, or just support. What was it about him?

So this is going to be very personal answer, right? Like, don't take this as like, like the smart policy guy, right? This is a very, this is a very personal and, and, and to an extent, emotional answer.

A lot of guys got shot up and blown up while Bush was in office. He was at Walter Reed talking to him. I deployed under Clinton, I deployed under Bush, I deployed under Obama. I got activated for a civil unrest under Trump.

One of those presidents showed up in person to greet my brigade upon coming home from the mission. And that was George W. Bush.

That's pretty awesome to hear. I mean, again, everybody has their opinions, you know, politics and who's better, who's worse, but that, that, that puts some, that puts some meat on the bones for people to think about what really matters.

And the guy who's willing to come out, shake your hand, pat you on the back, get, pray with you, whatever, you know, that, that's awesome.

All of that. And also because it was George Bush mispronounced my brigade's nickname, but Hey, just whatever. What was your brigade's nickname? We were the Roccasans. 101st Airborne, 3rd Brigade, Roccasans.

He welcomed back the Roccasans. So we all got a chuckle out of that, but that was, I would have thought he would have said.

Something more like from Texas, like Roccasans or something, I don't know.

He was, he, he did his best. You could see he was trying to, it's, it's, it's a, it's a Japanese nickname. We got it in the second world war. You could see he was trying. So we were happy with him for that.

Well, what does that mean? What is, what is your, the nickname mean?

I think it means iron umbrella. Oh, okay. So when, uh, when, uh, first of the one 87th, third of the one 87th jumped into, uh, jumped into Japan, uh, unlike in the European theater where, uh, paratroopers were kind of understood the Japanese apparently were like, the hell is that?

Yeah. There's a bunch of umbrellas falling from the sky. And when they hit the ground, they rain steel on us. So steel umbrellas. Oh, wow.

I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. Um, let me ask you this, knowing that you were okay. So going back to your, your salvation experience that was after you'd been in the military for a while, when did you decide to join, join the chaplaincy or become a chaplain?

From Salvation in Iraq to a Calling in Chaplaincy

Uh, so, uh, God saved me some time in February of 2008 out by the generator patrol-based warrior keep, uh, that's a grid 38 Sierra Mike Bravo 1367. For anybody who wants to look it up. It's gone now.

And then in 2010 on a second trip to Iraq. First of all that he saved me in Babylon. Like literally in Babylon. Two years later I'm in Iraq again. I get baptized in Mosul which is Nineveh. So saved in Babylon.

Baptized in Nineveh. Wow. Yeah. Because I came to Jesus. But I didn't come to a position of a baptism by immersion. I told you I came in as a very poorly educated Christian. Sure sure. And it was volunteering in as a musician at the night Chapel at Fab Maris diamond back in the Mosul area in a like mid 2010 that I got this.

Like I don't place a lot of stock in feeling right. Generally like God has given us feelings as part of the Imago Dei. Got it. But I generally try not to make decision from that. But I got this lightning-bolt feeling playing playing the keyboard and singing for the night Chapel in in Mosul in 2010.

This is what you're supposed to be doing. Hmm. And I'm like I'm supposed to be playing a cheap keyboard and a tenant in Mosul. Like I don't. What. So I came back from that deployment. Talked to my wife with some trepidation.

Hey Julie I think I'm original what I think I might be being called the ministry. And but to my eternal surprise and joy she said hallelujah. That's what I was hoping. Oh praise God. Yes. But I had no idea what that meant.

In fact I I perceived my calling as a missionary calling. But the undergraduate Bible College I went to. You could not swing a dead cat there without hitting somebody. Training for military chaplaincy in one of the branches Navy Army Air Force.

We had them all. I'm like well that's weird. And then I majored in missions. And I kept hearing in my missions classes about this thing called in dish indigenous missions where members of the tribe minister to the tribe.

I'm like well what's what's my tribe. Arizona. I came to realize that that my tribe it has a it has a separate language that is a sub dialect of English. It has a completely separate set of codes and mores that I was fluent in in that tribe was the US Army specifically.

So during that undergraduate experience I realized I'm being called the ministry. Yes. I'm being called as a missionary. Yes to my tribe. Yes. And that tribe is the United States Army. So it took took a couple of years.

It was 2015 specifically when I 100 surrendered and said yes God I'm going to drop my packet for the army chaplaincy. This month come hell or high water. And and from then until now.

There's been zero question in my mind. That's awesome. And just the the the the visual that you're giving of ministering to your tribe. And what you said about having your own language. I just want. You know ever since we've been texting back and forth preparing for this show I've had to like interpret some of what you've said.

Even even even the first time you texted you were like yeah we're gonna meet at 24 or 20 2100 hours. I was like minus the 12 because again there's a different it my son does the same thing when he when he comes home he talks he talks to me.

And I think I. I used to think maybe he was doing it to try to make himself feel like more of a man. You know because he's coming home to dad. You know. And he's gonna be like you know I'm manly because I'm in the military and and that's cool.

You know I want him to feel grown up because he is. You know he's an adult but. But it's interesting. You're right. All of you guys do this. You all have this language. That's. That's your own. That's really.

Cool I it it is it is a sub dialect I mean just goodness I say and because because I have a foot in each camp in like the the Ecclesiastical the church.

Yeah camp I don't want to call it church camp. That sounds so wrong. I know what you.

Mean yeah and in the military camp I was sending a text the other day that had like five different acronyms and I'm like what have I become like who even am.

I now yeah but yes it's an acquired skill so as. Okay. So what was when did you become. You just told us of this but I want to get the date again. When when did you actually become a chaplain. My official.

So becoming a chaplain does not.

Happen overnight. Oh sure sure yeah. And even putting in my packet in 2015 means that I became a candidate in 2016 as a as a second lieutenant the the army did not call me chaplain on paperwork until November 1st 2020 so I'm very new to this game although in my candidacy as a chaplain candidate lieutenant second lieutenant first lieutenant you're technically under supervision but as a chaplain candidate in the Arizona National Guard at that time my supervision was never closer than 80 miles away so I was basically doing the.

Job even though it wasn't my title. Gotcha gotcha but yeah I'm coming up.

This November 1st I will have been a real boy I don't know why. Pinocchio.

Yeah a real chaplain for for two years this November 1st now I know that when I went to see my son graduate from the Air Force we we visited the we went to we watched his graduation and then we visited the chapel.

The chapel the they had a Roman Catholic service and then they had the Protestant service which was basically a sort of combined denominations. It wasn't a specific denomination that I remember. It was like sort of all the different Protestant denominations together.

And I remember them saying that there was you know. And I talked to Jake about this the first time he was on the program. She may not have seen this but the first time he was on I talked about the fact that there was like a push for baptism.

It was like you know or not really a push but it was like they were offering a baptism class. They were saying I know some of you want to be baptized and so. And it kind of made me think of the old saying you know there's no atheists and foxholes.

You know the idea that these people have gone into the military now. They've grown up over the last 6 8 12 weeks however long the boot camp was for them. And now they're they realize life and death and all these things are real things.

So do you have that experience to being where you are. Or because Fort Leonard Wood is a basic training camp. Right. That's where.

Basic Training, Baptism, and Chaplaincy at Fort Leonard Wood

Yeah oh yeah on all the Fort Leonard Wood we have and if somebody watches this and knows the Fort Leonard Wood force structure better than I do don't fire don't flame me. I think I think we only have two force comm units.

Everything everybody else is a trainee. So 10 ,000 ish soldiers with a somewhat transient population kind of like a university town. We could we could be as low as 7 ,000 and swell to like 15 18 ,000 but it's almost entirely trainee.

And that's lieutenant trainee. That's private trainee. And that's private trainee in the specializations of combat engineer combat combat engineer engineer bridge crew member which I do that's the military police.

And we also are home to the CBRN chemical biological radiological nuclear soldiers. For the entire army they all come to us to train whether that's private or or lieutenant and and they and the captains come back to get additional follow-on training.

And furthermore we also have motor trance. I think 88 Mike the our logistical truck drivers not only for the army but also for the Marine Corps to include the Marine Corps military police school also on Fort Leonard Wood.

We've got some Air Force specialties. I have not yet seen a Coast Guardsman but I hear there have been some sightings like we've got a bit of a trainees from.

All over the place. So do you lead the worship service on Sunday. I did. You did.

And I and I still do. But it's different. So when I first when they first told me when I gave them ten different places I wanted to go and none of them were Fort Leonard Wood. And they said you're going to Fort Leonard Wood.

I was like okay I got there. And one of the first things the garrison chaplain asked me is which worship service. Which chapel service do you want to serve in. I'm like I'm here. I've got a battalion of trainees.

I want to minister directly to them. So put me in whatever service they're going to go to on Sunday. That meant that for over the first year. Plus that on Sundays I was ministering to the brand new privates.

And you're right that whole thing. Where they where they show up. And maybe they maybe they showed up straight off the couch playing Call of Duty. Some of them others others not. We might talk about the status of trainees that show to show up to us at some point.

But OSOT one station unit training which it which includes basic training plus plus follow-on training. So so your your initial entry training to the military. It punches you in the face. Mm-hmm. Some people show very athletically prepared and find interpersonal challenges.

Some people show up very socially adept but physically unprepared. Everybody has a challenge. There is nobody who skates through. There's always something even the ones who have maybe the easiest time of it.

There is something that challenged them even if it was boredom. And our chapel services for IET would frequently and we'd have to run two services. We'd have to run an eight o 'clock and a nine o 'clock.

And frequently we'd be at capacity at 1 ,200. So we would we would preach to 2 ,400. Oh wow folks across two services. So that was that was a big deal. And you mentioned baptisms. That's that is an interesting issue too.

Yeah those services include some baptisms. I've participated in some of them. I think I interrogate those wishing to be baptized a little bit differently than my friend.

My like compatriot chaplains might. Okay but let me stop you right there. I want to just say from now on my baptism counseling will be referred to as baptism interrogation. I love that and I'm just going to adapt that so thank you because I do it.

I do about a six-week meeting with people if I'm going to baptize someone I usually meet with them at least six times to go over the scriptures and talk to them about their confession and usually about once a week for six weeks it is now going to be called my interrogation.

I love it.

Do it brother. Yeah yeah. I came. So you know that that Jake was a 35 Mike military interrogator as an enlisted man before I became a chaplain. After I left the infantry I transferred to 35 Lima counterintelligence agent.

So me and Jake had some interesting intelligence world synergy. Yeah. In fact when I first ran across him I was weirded out because our mutual and friend mutual friends included ministry people and also secret squirrel people.

I'm like what is this intersection here. Turns out we both kind of came to chaplaincy through it. What. Similar path. But that doesn't mention man hit it. Yeah they'll take it more.

Seriously if you call it that I promise yeah I like it especially for young people because you know a lot of times when people around that 12 13 14 year old they start you know having that that that sort of existential reality.

Okay this is life and and I've got to start thinking about life and and and growing up and what does it mean to be a Christian. And so those are always the ones I'm most concerned about because I'm afraid oftentimes they're doing it for the purpose of satisfying their either you know the church or their parents or whatever.