Does the Bible Teach: TOTAL DEPRAVITY? | Jeremiah Nortier vs Caleb Robertson

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Good evening, everyone. This is what does the Bible say? It's debate night. We've been advertising this for months.

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We're very excited. We hope you are too My name is Ian young I'm going to be introducing the debate topic and then

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I'll be explaining the structure of our debate and then I'll be yielding the floor the topic of tonight's debate is

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Does the Bible teach total depravity that's Jeremiah nortier affirming

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Caleb Robertson denying The first hour is going to be consisting of 10 -minute speeches alternating between participants

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So for example, that'll be the first 10 minutes Caleb will be speaking Second 10 minutes

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Jeremiah will be speaking and so on until each party has had a total of three blocks of 10 minutes each

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After that, we're going to be moving into a Q &A session where each party will have a 15 minute block to be the questioner where they have one minute to frame their question and The opposition has two minutes to respond.

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So each person will get 15 minutes to be the questioner Moving on from that we'll actually be open opening up The floor to the audience

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There'll be 15 minutes for you the audience to be able to call a live call a number that will appear at the bottom of your screen

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Please have your questions ready. Try to have background noise reduced so that we can be as efficient as possible

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We want people to be able to as many people to participate as possible in the community After that and you can ask your questions of either participants just participants just to make that clear

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After the 15 -minute question from the audience period we'll finally have our closing statements where each party will have five minutes to make their closing remarks

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So it's hard to ask more foundational question than this I hope that everybody will have their Bibles their pads and their paper pencils ready and That you'll enjoy the debate with that.

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I'll yield the floor to Caleb Robertson Okay, Ian once you tell me that my time is going

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I'll start going Okay.

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Good evening everybody usually in a typical debate What ends up happening is that the participants will bat back and forth proof text and we're discussing total depravity

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Does the Bible teach it? I do not think so I think that your babies are born innocent if you have a baby that dies or a child that dies in childhood

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I think that it will go to heaven. It has no sin It doesn't have a sinful nature And the way that the typical debate would go is something like Jeremiah would say look at Genesis 6 verse number 5 and then

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I Throw out another one and say well now look at Genesis 6 12. He says Psalm 58 3 then I throw out another one

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No, look at this one. He says Ezekiel 33 26 I say look at Ezekiel 18 and we just go back and forth for two hours

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But tonight what I want to do is I want to ask this question if it's if Jeremiah is right, what does it mean?

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What are the conclusions? That's what I want Jeremiah and I have talked before the debate and Jeremiah is a 1689

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London Baptist Confession man right, and This is what that confession says This is his book his creed

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The guilt of the sin of Adam was imputed and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity

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Descending from them by ordinary generation being now conceived in sin and by nature Children of wrath the servants of sin the subjects of death and all other miseries

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Which would mean going to hell all other misery spiritual temporal or eternal going to hell

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Unless the Lord Jesus sets them free from the original corruption whereby we are utterly indisposed Disabled and made opposite to everything good and wholly inclined to everything evil do proceed all actual transgressions

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So that means before all actual transgressions before you can actually start doing your own actions like a baby can't do its own actions

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They're already guilty. They're already hell -bound. Now. This is what I want us to do. Does Jeremiah actually believe that?

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Does he orchestrate his life like he actually believes that while he's telling everybody else? Hey, this is what the Bible teaches and you need to orchestrate your life around this doctrine.

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This is John Calvin Jeremiah calls himself a Calvinist and John Calvin's book the Institutes of the

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Christian religion He says individuals are born Individuals are born who are doomed from the womb to certain death and glorify him by their destruction

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That means doomed from the womb John Calvin says they're going to hell from their mother's womb

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Jeremiah is a Calvinist now. I asked the question this and I'm asking Jeremiah. I'm not expecting him to answer

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What I'm asking Jeremiah Jeremiah you have a two -year -old I have a two -year -old Jeremiah Do you tell JJ that he is doomed from the womb?

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Do you talk to your two -year -old and say hey, man, you are going possibly unless you're elect You're going to hell and you're two years old.

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Nothing you can do about it. That's what John Calvin said Here's body Bacchum body Bacchum is a popular

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Calvinist and he says babies ain't cute babies are vipers and diapers The reason God makes babies so cute is so that you won't kill them

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Does Jeremiah actually believe this stuff Jeremiah? Do you come home and pick up your little boy and say how's my viper in a diaper doing?

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Do you look at him and his depravity and then it says? Body said the baby's so cute so that you won't kill him.

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Are you thinking about ever killing your two -year -old? RC Sproul said John Calvin wrote that babies are as depraved as rats

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RC Sproul then said that's a gross insult to those rats Those poor rats are just chasing cheese running away from cats doing the best they can but that baby is a blasphemer

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These are the most popular cat he's dead But there's some of those popular Calvinist and we just have to keep asking. Do you call

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JJ a blaspheming rat? This is the doctrine y 'all no clue what he's gonna say

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But these are the most popular Calvinist John Calvin himself said doom from the womb and I do want to say this too before we

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Had the debate Jeremiah called me and he said hey, uh, you're not gonna put in those like pictures with babies with horns and Snake fangs in there.

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Are you and I said, was that a problem? He said well, no, it's not a problem But I will say this y 'all the reason we even had to have that conversation

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Because there's a part of him that knows how horrible this doctrine is I blurred his baby's face don't want the baby on there, but he does have a two -year -old.

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I have a two -year -old Are we all any of anybody thinking of their babies this way? No, I don't think so And I also think that Jeremiah himself listen, let him speak for himself.

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Here's Jeremiah nortier 12 -5 church Because that's a big sticking point with the church

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Passages that talk about Kingdom of Heaven, what does that mean? Scripture is not super clear, but scripture is not super clear

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So when Jesus says Let the little children come into me for of such of the kingdom of heaven

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Jeremiah says well, that's not super clear Well now let's let Jeremiah's teacher James White one of his most prominent teachers.

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He brought a James White book with him here tonight What does James White say about babies going to hell? Need it automatic heaven for you, and I'm in the middle going

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I think God's probably consistent here and He's going to have elect infants

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And then there are others who will not be and I don't know what Basis to put that on other than the same basis of all the rest of us have elect infants

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And there are others who will not be James White just said there are elect infants, and then there are infants that are not elect

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What does that mean James White just said if you're not elect that means you're going to hell and James White who is one of Jeremiah's prominent teacher says there is such a thing as a non -elect baby.

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What does he base it on? He said there's all kinds of non -elect people that means there has to be babies that are not elect

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One more Jeremiah. I just don't think Jeremiah believes this he put this on his Facebook page This is the birth announcement of his son, and he says this is he's writing in the form of his own son

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He says hey everybody. This is JJ Nortier. I was born in October two years ago Mommy and daddy got me 36 hours ago, and look what he says

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I love them very much You know Martin Luther wrote in his Romans commentary also in bondage of the will

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Martin Luther said babies from the womb hate God Isn't that something that JJ can love his two parents, but he hates

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God How does that work and then also you go down? And he says everyone is smitten with my precious little self

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Not a note about JJ's total depravity isn't that odd he's so precious and everybody loves him

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And he loves everybody, but then on Sunday morning Jeremiah is gonna say hey. He's a viper in a diaper He's doing from the womb, and he's a blaspheming rat

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Who can believe that but that's what his teachers say and we keep going here's what his

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Creed says They're corrupted by nature all their posterity descending from the ordinary generation being now conceived in sin and nature children of wrath

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Servants sin subjects of death they are wholly inclined towards evil Wholly inclined towards evil now

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James white used to believe and I guess this is when he had kids 1987 he had an article question and answers

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He says therefore we have little to go on and discuss in the condition of infant or the mentally incompetent Since they have made no conscious decisions against God it is inconceivable that they undergo any kind of punishment

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James white used to say babies didn't go to hell James white now does say that some babies go to hell

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But that is the consistent view of Calvinism babies born stillborn babies miscarried some of them the

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Calvinist position is going to say Randomly, they're burning in hell now. I don't believe that at all.

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It's because of Jeremiah 19 for the Prophet Jeremiah said about Judah Because they have forsaken me and estranged this place and have burned incense of their other gods and have filled this place with the blood

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Of the innocents now that Hebrew word innocence was also translated this way in other Old Testament passages cleared

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The children are cleared. The children are blameless. The children are acquitted. The children are guiltless. The children are free They are exempt and they are clean now probably he's gonna get into Romans 5 12 tonight

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I don't know why Calvinists like to start at Romans 5 12 and say look all have sinned that means babies all means babies

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Do you know that before Romans 5 12 Romans 3 9 actually says all are under sin and Paul tells us who the all are

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He's not talking about babies for we had before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all understand

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He's just talking about two classes of people the Jews and the non -jews But if you don't start at Romans 3 9, then you look at Romans 5 12 and say oh, this is babies

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Did we really if it's babies did we need Paul to write Romans 3 11? There's none that understands We all know babies don't understand.

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There's none that seeks God. What does a baby seek besides its mother's milk? Nothing They are all gone out of the way.

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Can you leave something that you were never in out of the way? They are together become unprofitable. When were these babies ever profitable if total depravity is true?

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There's none to do with good. No, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher their tongues They have used for deceit the poison of acid in their lips

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Y 'all whose babies are lying One year olds are they lying

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Newborns are they lying before you get to Romans 5 verse number 12 all have sin

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Romans 3 9 has already told us who the all is Romans 3 9 says this is a conversation between Jews and Gentiles and in Romans chapter 3

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They had asked the question. What is the advantage of being a Jew? Because they had the oracles of God given to them.

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He's having a conversation between two classes of people It is totally out of context to come in here and make this about babies being to pray from Adam It's not at all mentioned in Romans 3 9

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Adams not babies are not but when you just randomly started Romans 5 12 Then you can just say that ah

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These are these are talking about babies and babies are going to hell Well Romans 2 4 also says that the goodness of God leads us to repentance a doctrine has to be wholesome

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And this is one of the most unwholesome doctrines to call babies depraved rats Blaspheming rats doomed from the womb and it's right there in his creed the

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London 1689 Confession now I'm gonna stick with what Jesus said of such these little children of such are the kingdom of heaven and Jesus also said humble yourself as a little child and You have all these passages

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Paul saying to in malice be children you have all these passages where Jesus also says

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Out of the mouth of babes comes perfect praise Well, how are they lying and then

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Jesus using them as a symbol to say? These are the people that you get the honest truth from now

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I want to say this too as I conclude Some people might say that it's out of place out of etiquette and untoward for me to talk about his son

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JJ Hey, I've got a son you can talk about my son. That's okay. He's cute All right, can you hear me?

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the scripture declares There is none righteous. No, not one.

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Have you ever asked yourself the question? Why is that? Why is it the case that all of mankind hates?

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God, I believe the scripture tells us and what we call total depravity This is the reason why all men hate

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God and suppress the truth in their love for sin Something I want you to know about total depravity is that it is a covenantal curse on all of mankind

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Now this goes all the way back to Adam in the garden when he sinned he brought forth a curse that was going to curse all of creation and his

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Posterity so this curse would include being born with the sinful nature unable to seek after God and therefore earning death

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But what you're gonna see with Caleb this evening is but Jeremiah being born in a sinful nature.

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That's not fair It's not fair for me to be cursed this way because of the sins of someone else

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Well that kind of complaint is actually what we see in Ezekiel chapter 18 The children of Israel said the fathers have eaten sour grapes and us the children our teeth are set on edge

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They're saying it's not fair that 20 years prior our father sinned and we have lost the land Well, this is a covenantal curse when you go back to the

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Torah when the children of Israel were obedient Well, they were able to be in the land But when they disobeyed even if it was the the representatives of the rulers

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Well, they were cursed from the land and this had devastating consequences to the future generations to come and then

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Ezekiel 18 says the soul who sins shall die The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father

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All this is affirming is not all sins result in a covenantal curse

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But it is true covenantal curses and personal responsibility work together according to Ezekiel 18

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Now Ezekiel 18 talks about the soul who sins shall die But I want to ask a different question something that will educate

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Caleb in this debate with many representations that he said I want to ask the question. Why does the soul without personal sin still die?

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Well, this goes back to a different covenantal curse that results in physical death

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The Lord God said to Adam you may surely eat of every tree of the garden But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day

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That you eat of it you will surely die God is telling Adam the moment that you sin against me and break covenant

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Then you will surely perish in the evil day of death. It's a guarantee and in Genesis chapter 3

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That's exactly what Adam and Eve did they sinned openly against God their eyes were open

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Adam sinned and in his nature changed and the power of sin now reigned in his flesh and death was a reality

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And so in Genesis chapter 3 God said Adam cursed is the ground because of your sin

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You were made out of the dust and to dust you shall return as you're gonna see Caleb's not gonna like the

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Physicality of death according to Adam and his sin and what happened when Adam lived 930 years in this evil day of death.

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Well, he returned back to the dust of the ground and he died That is the definition of death

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Of course, it's spiritual because man is spiritual But it is also physical all of Adams posterity and he died and he died and he died

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Death is a curse mankind Experiences death as being both spiritual and physical and so we look at Romans how the

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Apostle Paul being a Hebrew of Hebrews understood death he said for the wages of sin is not a mere spiritual death, but it's both spiritual and Physical and I want you to understand that death is not natural.

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It's not a good thing The scripture says that death is an enemy Listen y 'all,

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I'm gonna use the Bible and I'm gonna say death is a natural part of this world

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No, it's not Caleb go back and look at Genesis 1 and 2 when God made the heavens and the earth

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It was good. It was good. And when God made man, it was a very good You want to know you don't see you don't see death and God's original design

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And that's because Adam if he would have obeyed God and freely ate from the tree of life He would have lived forever in his conditional state.

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And so with this idea of a covenantal curse with total gravity This is the understanding that Jesus would have had in the

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Sermon on the Mount He says so every tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit

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Now Caleb wants you to believe that we're all born good trees And when you produce a little bit of bad fruit, oh, then you become a bad tree

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Well Caleb, you got it backwards Jesus says the fruit is indicative of the kind of tree the

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Apostle Paul says in Ephesians chapter 2 and you were Dead in the trespasses and sins.

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This is the imagery of a dead corpse. Guess what dead corpses do They can't do anything Actually, they reek of a foul and awful odor and when when man spiritually speaking opens his mouth against God He utters awful blasphemies that reek before God and spits at God's face

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That is why we are called sons of disobedience We go out of the way because we hate

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God fundamentally from the core We are held bound by the the kingdom of this world, which is

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Satan now Notice Paul goes on to say why we're sons of disobedience.

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He goes on to say that we are all Tecna Fousey or gays all of mankind born of two parents are by nature

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Children of wrath and so I'm gonna break these words down Techno is the word we get for children

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You may not can see it very well on the screen but there's Greeks lexicon says that this is cursed children exposed to the curse of God and we are under wrath and Penalty and so the most basic understanding of offspring is of two human parents children as born

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Now this is something that all of mankind share in common that we are born of two parents

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Well, that would mean that there are three exceptions Adam and Eve were not born They were created in Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and conceived by the

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Holy Spirit This means when he became like us in every respect man. This means that he added humanity to his divine personhood

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But since he was born of a virgin he bypassed the sin corrupt soil of being of Adam And so number two,

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I want to talk about Fousey or the word nature or birth Now this is where Caleb is going to try to say well nature is something that you can determine by your actions

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Well, if Caleb were to start barking like a dog, would he become a dog? No, that's absurd nature is something that you are born with and so B DAG says that this is a condition or circumstance as determined by birth and B DAG points out this lexicon that it's all descendants of Adam I want you to understand this is being born of two parents that we are corrupt from the core and go astray

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He's going to try to redefine that nature is used many times in the New Testament and we look at this idea of expansion

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We're talking about plant life certain seeds produce Certain plants or for talking about reproduction with humans or animals kind produces kind and so number three or gase, right?

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This is possessing wrath This is something that the Church of Christ don't like to talk about because this is talking about all of man that are born of Parents we are under a divine

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Indignation and so that's the whole point that Caleb wastes a lot of time in Romans chapter 5 but this is talking about because of the sin of Adam the result was

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Condemnation for all mankind, of course, he wants to make some exceptions to that rule and so we are cursed from birth because we have the wrath of God and we are cursed with death and so death in the

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Greek is Thanatos, this is the termination of physical life and BD egg BD egg says that the natural death is a result of divine

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Punishment, but God does not leave us in the darkness He does not leave us to fight for ourselves

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Paul goes on to say that the gospel is amazing But God being rich in mercy because of the great love in which he loved us

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Even when we were dead in our trespasses God made us alive together with Christ And so Jesus Christ Reverses the curse and that also brings us to God's amazing grace he takes out that heart of stone and he gifts us grants us works into our heart a living heart that is convicted of sin and sees our need for the

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Savior and Something that might be surprising to Caleb is all of mankind is in need of a perfect Savior including infants

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I do not have a problem saying See Do not need

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Jesus Caleb is wrong babies that die in infancy do go to heaven not because they possess an innocent and pure nature

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But because God is merciful and gracious and saves to the uttermost And if you don't like my words

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Caleb look at King Jesus He said I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father.

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No one including infants comes to the father except through Jesus Christ, and so I don't know how much remaining time that I have 40 seconds.

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We'll see if we can wrap this up Members in the New Covenant those that have been saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

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Will never complain about the sins of another notice in Jeremiah 31 this ancient proverb about complaining about the sins of the other

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No, we put we rest perfectly in the finished work of the Savior affirming that covenantal curses are true

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And we will bear personal Responsibility. Thank you so much Okay.

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Now you'll notice he had that line in there where he said babies die and they go to heaven not not all babies James White said it's only elect babies and Jeremiah still has that idea

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He just threw that out there and it went over y 'all's head He still says there's gonna have to be non elect babies and then that other line

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He said we're we're born dead out of Ephesians chapter 2 and he said and we stink of a dead corpse boy again

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He's talking about JJ. He's talking about my little boy. He's talking about your little boy Your little baby came out of the womb stinking like a dead corpse before God now, that's the babies.

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Let's talk about the adults Jeremiah's idea is that Adams disease he talked about all this curse from Adam He thinks that Adams disease is actually stronger than Jesus cure now.

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I had that quote from James White Here's a quote from a book that by however you want to say Augustine Augustine on predestination and perseverance of the

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Saints Do you know that this quote? Came from one of their biggest teachers if it's not John Calvin It's Augustine and Augustine said therefore it is uncertain whether anyone has received this gift

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So long as he is alive still for if he falls before he dies He is of course said not to have persevered and most truly it is said what

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Augustine just say If you're a Calvinist, you can never ever know if you're truly saved now that goes against first John 5 13

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First John 5 13 says here. We know that we do have eternal life But one again one of his biggest teachers

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Augustine says nobody can ever know Does that sound very confident comforting your babies are born corrupt your babies are born dead

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They stink of a deceased corpse and then Augustine comes in and he says and you can never know if you're actually saved or not

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And you know that's out of again the 1689 London Confession point number five of chapter three

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Says or chapter six as this the corrupt nature during this life remains in those that are regenerated

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So Jeremiah thinks he's regenerated. He doesn't know Augustine says he doesn't know and not only does he think he's regenerated, but he's still depraved

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He still has corruption. So what did Jesus do for Jeremiah? He doesn't know if he's saved and he still got a depraved nature now look at Romans 5 12

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This is how they typically a Calvinist will do Romans 5 12 Wherefore is by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned

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Remember Romans 3 9 already told us who the all is it's not talking about babies in Romans chapter 3 verse 9 verse number 9

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It says Jews and Gentiles. Well, this is what Jeremiah thinks this means. Well all all men that takes in babies, but look at this

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Calvinists never want to talk about Romans 5 19 Because it kills the way that they use the word all it kills the way that they use the word many if Jeremiah got up Again, and he went to Romans 5 19 for as by one man's disobedience

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Many were made sinners. So by the obedience of one shall be made many righteous and that's the same word, isn't it?

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But when Jeremiah reads this he's gonna say, ah, well when it's in red We became for by as one man's disobedience many were made sinners.

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That's everybody That's 100 % of human creation But when we get down to the second many many shall be made righteous by the obedience of Christ Well somehow that stops being 100 %

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The way they treat Romans 5 19 if they're going to keep up this idea of its universal sin nature

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Then why do they not come down to Romans 5 19 and promote a universal salvation by Christ? You didn't do anything to inherit

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Adam sin and 100 % of the people got Adam sin nature So why is it not the case that we don't do anything to inherit

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Jesus righteousness and a hundred percent everybody gets that it's not Just Romans 5 19 One minute many means a hundred percent and the next minute it doesn't

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Romans 11 32 God has concluded all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all, you know

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Somehow Jeremiah says well all means 100 % Everybody's an unbelief But then somehow all stops being 100 % and probably less than 10 % are going to end up being the elect and there's nothing they can

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Do about it. It's not just Romans 11 32 But it's also first Corinthians 15 22 in Adam all die

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And so all shall be made alive in Christ one minute all means 100 % and then the next minute it just doesn't

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Here's Galatians 3 22 Can you know that you're saying listen to what Jeremiah says? This is said one of his co -workers.

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I think his name is Adam Carmichael Well, we are born we desire to be so we're not a neutral Right. Do we know who?

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Probably we are born we desire to be so we're not a neutral state, right? Do we know who Christ died for absolutely not and God will work out those that are dead in sins

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That's his work. Well, we are born we desire to be so we're not a neutral state Right was you know

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Ephesians 2 One thing that he said was that I said that we're born good He says when we're born we have desires and they're towards sin.

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I don't think you have an innate moral compass I'm not saying that you're just a baby. You don't know anything, but this is what

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Galatians 3 22 says It's a little bit different than Romans 5 a little bit different than Romans 11 scriptures has concluded all under sin that the promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe it's a condition

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Somehow in Jeremiah's view all are forced to sin by God But then not all are enabled to believe on God unless God forces them to believe

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Well, I think we are in the same boat as Adam. I think that Adam had free will he made a decision and had consequences

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We have free will we choose to sin and then some of us choose to have faith and then some of us just don't but Isn't that James 1 13 through 15?

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Let no man say when he's tempted. I'm tempted of God for God cannot tempt with evil Isn't it something that God can't tempt us with evil?

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But he can make us where all we want to do is be evil total depraved nature came from God So says Jeremiah But every man is tempted when he's drawn away of his own lust and enticed and when sin

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Lusts have conceived and brings forth sin and sin when it's finished brings forth death How does it bring forth death if we're already dead? And of course, we don't even need to be tempted

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We're just gonna do what's wrong. I think we're just like Adam and One thing that we've talked about before we got started the translations

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Do you know the ESV says therefore just as sin came into the world through one man?

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How did it come in it came in by his free will so if it's just as How do

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I not have free will? Just as sin came into the world through one man the death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sin and then

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The NIV says it this way Therefore just as sin entered into the world through one man death through sin and in this way what way the free will way

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That's how Adam did it Adam brought sin in by free will just as and in this way It seems pretty clear that Romans 5 12 is actually saying we're just like Adam.

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He had a choice We have a choice the choice is are you gonna have faith or not? Here's how I mean that Jeremiah's positions that Adam's disease is stronger than Jesus cure

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Jeremiah was born depraved and even if he's licked he's still depraved and then number three

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His depravity passes to his children, but not his election and then number four

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Jeremiah will live the rest of his life never knowing if he is part of the elect or not How is that comforting they call this doctrines of grace they call it a most wholesome doctrine how it's consistent doubt

29:13

Adam Carmichael said we don't know who Jesus died for yeah, then that means Adam Carmichael, too He doesn't know that Jesus died for him

29:18

Jeremiah doesn't know that Jesus died for Jeremiah or for JJ and again He said they go to heaven by Jesus that implies some babies are still not elect now

29:26

We don't have to learn to sin says Jeremiah because God cursed us It's not Adam sin, and it's not a disease from the devil at Jeremiah.

29:34

Just says it's a curse from God We don't have to learn to sin. Why God cursed us with just sinning our parents can't help us

29:40

Why cuz God cursed us soul winner can't reach us why God cursed us the Bible can't help us cuz God cursed us

29:45

We go to hell why because God refuses to elect us really what you've got in Calvinism is Jesus and the devil working together to condemn you

29:52

James 4 7 says resist the devil and he will flee from what to him What do I got to resist the devil for God's the one who made me be so sinful 2nd

29:59

Corinthians 2 11 less Satan should get an advantage of us for we are not ignorant It is his devices his devices are

30:05

God's devices Because God is the one according to Jeremiah who made us to pray now. I said in the debate how we doing on time

30:12

Okay, I said in this what are the conclusions? Okay, I didn't really get too much out of his talk except for we die physically and somehow he thinks that necessitates depravity

30:21

But here's what we're saying y 'all If Jeremiah is right Some of y 'all's babies are going to hell nothing that they did.

30:29

They're gonna pay for Adams consequences in hell for eternity next point Augustine says you can never know if you're saved or not.

30:37

He never lost his depravity He thinks he's elect, but he doesn't know and he'll keep his depravity for the rest of his life

30:43

Will he pass his election on to his children? No His children will just be depraved and then there's nothing that he can do to help them become elect

30:50

Some of his he just keeps on having kids some of them are gonna probably go to hell Maybe one or two of them will be elect who can believe that one more

30:57

Luke 8 11 Those by the wayside of those that here and then comes the devil to take away the word out of their hearts

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The devil doesn't have to come and take the word out of your heart because Jeremiah's position says that God kept you from receiving The word to begin with in Jeremiah's scheme

31:10

God is always against you Before you got here before your kids get here and all the way to your end

31:16

God is going to be your enemy in the Calvinist position. How are we doing now? Okay Well, we are born we desire to be so we're not a neutral state, right?

31:27

Do we know who Christ died for absolutely not and God will work out those that are dead in sins

31:33

That's his work. Well, we are born we desire to be so we're not Like I said, our babies come out.

31:38

They know us by our voices in the womb. They want to eat They want to be changed but him as a dad and me as a dad and the rest of us

31:45

We're trying to give our kids Romans 2 for the goodness of God does what it leads people to repentance? I think this is a horrible picture of God They would not attract anybody to repentance

31:54

But the fact of the goodness of God in Romans 2 for leads people to repentance should tell all of us That someplace in there you have some action to perform if you're being led towards God because God is good

32:05

Then there's a role for you to perform now when you tell your kids to behave. Are you gonna be telling them? Hey, I'm trying to help you out here

32:11

But there's really nothing you can do about it when your child's this disobeying at home Are you telling look

32:16

I want you to obey me? But I know good and well that God made you where he can't do it when the kid gets bigger and they don't want to Go to church anymore

32:29

All right Thank You Caleb for Those words. I really thought you would understand my position a whole lot better.

32:38

And So we'll start back with JJ Something you said is why don't

32:44

I basically tell JJ that he's going to hell is Well, God is sovereign that's a that is a reality that Caleb I know that you vehemently opposed that God has transcendent rule over his entire creation and that he is divine purpose and everything

32:58

And so God is not just sovereign about his end goals But the means to bring that about and so the reason why

33:05

I don't tell JJ He's going to hell is because as a parent I'm called to raise him up in the fear and the admonition of the

33:11

Lord And so I believe that God uses the means of parents preaching the gospel to their children that in hopes that God would regenerate their dead heart that they may kiss the

33:22

Sun as Ephesians 2 says in faith and So to me, it's just absolutely absurd that you think that we ought to tell our children that they're going to hell

33:31

So you're conflating a lot of different categories And I want to talk about the doctrine of imputation

33:37

This is actually crucial to the gospel and I have a lot of the quotes that you wrote down but I want to say that Romans 5 talks about you can either be in Christ by Imputation by faith in him all of your sin gets forgiven the church of Christ fundamentally

33:52

Despised that understanding because they know that we have the imputed Condemnation of Adam on our account and when he says all does it mean all what does the

34:01

Bible say? It says that all of mankind Jews and Gentiles are under sin under sin

34:07

Means that the power of sin pervades our very existence and something else that he said,

34:13

I'm have to look at my notes I remember everything that he that he was saying there is that God causes us to be totally depraved

34:19

That was Adam not a God have a divine purpose and all that Well, he absolutely did but we got our total depravity.

34:27

Listen for the misrepresentation He says from God now my case which he has to deal with you can quote

34:32

Augustine you can quote James, right? You have to deal with my case. And so even though I affirmed the 1689 that says the elect infants.

34:40

Well, that could mean all infants It means the elect ones now that does mean that there is a people that's not elect and that's what the video that you played

34:47

There's not even fit and what we're talking about just because we don't know who some of the elect are I can know that I'm elect because I love the sovereign

34:55

King Jesus the one that you oppose I can be confident right now that you are standing outside of Christ because you add your obedience your working obedience to the gospel of grace

35:05

Galatians 1 says well, you're anathema so I can know right now that you're not in Christ But that doesn't mean that one day that you too might kiss the

35:13

Son and faith and come into a saving relationship With Jesus Christ. So those are just a few things right off the top of the bat

35:21

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy you totally Misrepresent what the doctrines of grace are even all about but I believe you have to rely on these heavily emotional arguments

35:32

Because at the core Caleb is a Pelagian he believes that we are born pure with an innocent nature and he even has said in his videos that we can obey

35:43

The commands of God we just need the right information so that we can obey and achieve a eternal reward

35:50

Well, that's what all the religions of the world have to offer is your works of obedience in order to be made

35:56

Right with the deity out there. And so of course he has to appeal to Emotional arguments that really don't matter at the end of the day.

36:04

What does the scripture say? So a couple other things that he said our babies are innocent according to Jeremiah 19 verse 5

36:13

Well, look at the entire context of the book of Jeremiah Jeremiah 26 15 the the prophet

36:19

Jeremiah says only know for certain that if you put me to death you will bring

36:24

Innocent blood upon yourself Well when Jeremiah was a was a grown adult adult

36:29

Are you saying that he was pure and innocent in terms of never sinning before God? Innocent blood just means that you're not guilty of a particular crime

36:39

But anyway, he wouldn't know that because he likes to cherry -pick a whole lot something else that he said was little babies

36:45

Little ones are for of such are the kingdom of heaven Well, obviously he doesn't know what that passage is talking about That means that we are to have a childlike faith now you saw in one of the video clips that I played

36:55

He says babies don't need Jesus and so yes, I could have made a graphic where he thinks babies dance on the blood of Jesus because They spit on the cross and it's like well that he wouldn't necessarily like for me to say that but that's his position

37:09

So when you look at for of such are the kingdom of God looking at little babies, how can you understand that?

37:14

Are you saying that we must become like those that don't need Jesus? Well, you absolutely contradict yourself there

37:20

He said Calvinists never want to talk about Romans 5 19 I don't have to look it up.

37:26

It says that many were made sinners. What is the context of Romans chapter 5?

37:32

What builds off Romans chapter 4 that says that by faith apart from your works and that would include your baptism over there that you?

37:40

Can be declared right before God and have all of your sins forgiven that is called the gospel of grace and so for all those outside of Christ you were under the federal headship of Adam and so it's hilarious to me that he says

37:55

Calvinist or being inconsistent because we should be Universalist. Well, that's just if you take these verses out of context because the all that are in Adam where you're you have

38:04

Condemnation on your account, right? You need something miraculous to happen to you But for all of those who are in in Christ by faith

38:12

Well, then you are saved and so context obviously is what we look at here in Asking the question what does the

38:19

Bible say and so he also said all are forced to sin by God That is the

38:26

Calvinist perspective That is not you'll never find in any of our writings that God forces

38:31

Anyone to sin now when you're cherry -picking and not really taking, you know, the scholarship throughout the centuries very seriously

38:38

Well, of course, he wants you to think that but we would say God Transforms the will he doesn't act against your will like if Caleb tried to force me to do something

38:47

He would be morally wrong. God is the sovereign king of the universe Therefore he works through our will but Caleb doesn't understand it

38:55

So God doesn't force us to sin God in Romans chapter 1 gives us over over to our reprobate mind

39:01

So God restrains himself and he has divine purpose in doing so and so in essence

39:08

He said that Jeremiah does not believe in free will, of course We do you should have known that if you read the 1689 2nd

39:15

London Baptist Confession We believe in free will but your will is consistent with one's nature

39:21

God chooses according to his nature Adam before the fall chose according to his nature and we though we have the curse of Adam on our account we still choose to go contrary to God's will now he said something else about Those that believe that you're totally pray you still have a depraved nature.

39:40

Well, we can war against the flesh it's called Sanctification and so that's what

39:45

Romans chapter 7 is all about the Apostle Paul says that he doesn't always do the things that he wants

39:51

To do because his inner man is transformed and he's warring against his flesh where the power of sin resides

39:58

And so something else that he said that's just an absolute misunderstanding of my position He said

40:03

Jeremiah believes that Adams disease is stronger than the cure then why is it that it's our position that says when

40:10

God does a Miracle in someone's heart then we now can have salvation

40:16

I mean to me that that shows that the cure is greater than the curse Something miraculous takes place and it's the

40:23

Church of Christ position that Caleb holds to that nothing miraculous happens at salvation It's all

40:29

Dependent on your obedience as we get into it a little bit later. I want to ask Caleb Do you think anything miraculous happens when you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps?

40:39

And you're just trying really hard to obey this five -step formula and remain holy with God well if you could lose your salvation then you absolutely could and That's something else that he brought about is the

40:51

Calvinist can't know if they're saved. Well, absolutely I mean we have a transformed heart so I can have assurance of my salvation

40:57

What he is confusing is that I can't have assurance of someone else's salvation so with that being said

41:10

Something else that he said is Calvinists say that children Randomly are predestined to go to hell

41:16

My position is that all infants go to heaven because God is sovereign and he saves to the uttermost

41:23

And so that doesn't mean they go to heaven totally to pray but God transforms them

41:28

Regenerates them and they do go to heaven so you can quote James White from years ago He's not the one that you're debating here the reason why

41:36

I have his book is to show you that he thinks that physical death is actually a part of this discussion and That's because he knows the debate is over if Romans 6 23

41:45

For the wages of sin is death if physical death is in view there then babies that die in infancy

41:52

Why do they physically die? He's gonna say because it's a natural work of God's design in this world

41:58

But if they physically die because of Adam's sin, guess what total depravity and so I'd like for you to answer me

42:05

Why do you think that Romans is talking merely about spiritual death? Thanks so much

42:14

Start with now is you notice he said that himself we train our children We teach our children that he said and we hope we hope that God Regenerates them.

42:24

So again, he wasn't denying what I was saying. He was actually saying what I said about their position is correct

42:29

They think their babies born dead and they need help, but they may not get it Which again is what

42:36

John Piper said John Piper said he put his three sons to bed and hope to God they wouldn't go to hell So I don't do that with my son, but now let's talk about Ephesians 2 3.

42:44

He said we're the children of wrath by nature I want to start with a video and He one thing he said too was before he got to the debate

42:51

He said hey if you want to clip up James White and use them against me Well, I did and now he's saying that I'm not debating James White.

42:57

Here is Jeremiah on Ephesians 2 verse number 3. We're dead in our sins.

43:02

We're the children of wrath Was you know Ephesians 2 3 talks about how we were by nature children of wrath

43:11

Was you know Ephesians 2 3 talks about how we were by nature children of wrath and then you by nature you have a creature that Is corrupt even though we can affirm these categories of you know, federal headship being guilty and Adam told of gravity inability

43:26

See God that we are dead in trespasses and sins and until you can find a way to make a dead person

43:33

Do anything? You're going to have to figure out how to fix that hole Theology dead people can't do anything.

43:42

Did y 'all not hear him say that ten minutes ago? This is Shirley Phelps, she's one of the nastiest women in America.

43:48

She's a five -point Calvinist. She believes just like Jeremiah now He said a moment ago Augustine has way more credit than Jeremiah Nortier James White is way more

43:58

Chris when I quote them and he says well you're debating me. These are your teachers This is a five -point Calvinist.

44:03

She said exactly what you said ten minutes ago You can't get a dead person to do anything and that includes his son

44:10

JJ that includes him He doesn't know if he's safe and he still got his depravity now, it's not just that I think

44:15

I can't remember his name Your preacher at twelve five. His name is Nathan Do anything?

44:22

You're going to have to figure out how to fix that hole in your theology dead people Do anything what

44:28

Ephesians 2 right and you were dead in your trespasses and sins you were unable Unable to come to him if total depravity falls all the rest fall if total depravity is right

44:41

You're kind of stuck with limited They are the exact same y 'all hey corporate just sent us a memo they said spot the difference in these pictures

44:52

They're the same picture. Jeremiah Nortier is just like Shirley Phelps. Does he pick it?

44:58

Sure. He doesn't pick it I haven't seen him pick it But he is saying the exact same Doctrine that she is saying and she would be quoting

45:04

John Calvin just like he would be saying John Calvin Augustine just like he quotes Augustine. Now, here's what he's probably gonna say.

45:11

He's probably gonna say Shirley Phelps is a hyper Calvinist Yeah, everything that you've said so far sounds like hyper Calvinism to me

45:17

You teach your kids and you say we hope they get regenerated You said a while ago, they're dead and they can't do anything and they stink like a dead corpse

45:23

I mean you're getting pretty graphic with your Calvinism I don't know what else we could do to make it hyper than it might just be what it is now again

45:30

Here's his quote. Here's a 1689 confession corrupt nature conveyed to all

45:35

Posterity descending from there descending from Adam and Eve by ordinary generation being now conceived in sin and by nature the children of wrath

45:43

The servants of sin the subjects of death and all other misery spiritual temporal and eternal unless the

45:49

Lord Jesus set them free Now I want to talk about children of wrath Ephesians 2 3 just like in Romans 5 12 y 'all

45:57

It's you know, this is how it goes Like I said, we bat back and forth the text and he accused me of cherry -picking

46:02

I don't think that they ever ever look at context and he brought up Romans 5 19 like I did and he just ignored what?

46:09

I said he goes. Yeah, I mean everybody that's in Adam is is gonna be condemned He said just like everybody in Christ is gonna be saved.

46:16

Yeah, but you still change it from a hundred percent to not a hundred percent How'd you do it? You just randomly threw that out there and when they get into Ephesians 2, there's no context

46:24

They just jump into Ephesians 2 3 and they say among whom also we had our conversation in times past and the lust of our flesh

46:30

Fulfilling desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature the children of wrath even as others and to Jeremiah that again is just another text where you tell your little kids you were born sinner and you're

46:40

Hell -bound from your mother's womb Is he not he said I'm not gonna tell my child. He's going to hell. You're not gonna tell your kid to read

46:47

John Calvin to read Augustine because I mean they're gonna find these quotes all over the place and I want to say to he said

46:52

I was appealing to emotional arguments. Are we not all emotional beings? I think parents have the right to know what they're getting into Young folk young couples come out and they're looking at twelve five church.

47:02

They said this looks like a nice place Jeremiah is a nice guy Jeremiah is nice, but they said nice couple nice people

47:08

Then they hear the pulpit sermons and they're gonna hear what John Calvin do from the womb

47:14

They're gonna hear viper in a diaper I think that young people young couples young parents have the right to know that at some point

47:20

James White or somebody is gonna Tell them yeah, there's a chance your baby's burning in hell Now here's Ephesians 2 3 children of wrath by nature

47:28

Isn't it odd that he says in Ephesians 2 3 and Jeremiah is gonna say well that means that they can't obey their parents

47:33

They can't be good They're totally depraved and then Paul turns around and says children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right

47:39

Well Ephesians 2 3 just told everybody of the children of wrath who can't do anything right ever Isn't that what the London Confession says they're wholly inclined to all evil.

47:47

Hey, what does all mean? He said it meant a hundred percent a minute ago You're wholly inclined to all evil and you do which precedes actual transgression

47:56

So the child is told you're totally depraved you're inclined towards all evil Then they're told and by the way obey your parents, even though we know that you can't

48:04

If you keep reading Ephesians chapter 2 does context not matter This is the same conversation as back in Romans 3 9 who was under sin all's under sin in Romans 3 9 and who is all?

48:14

He said it's the Jews and it's the Gentiles and if you stick in context to Ephesians chapter 2, you're gonna find this again

48:19

He is comparing Judah Gentile. This has nothing to do with babies.

48:24

How did we get babies in? Romans 5 12 had we get babies in Ephesians chapter 2 when

48:30

Romans 3 9 said it's a Jew Gentile discussion Ephesians 2 11 says it's a Jew Gentile discussion

48:36

Wherefore remember that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh who are called uncircumcised By that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands now

48:46

Look at this idea of Gentiles and wrath Ephesians 2 is clearly talking about Gentiles as he said in verse number 11 and he's talking about children of wrath by nature

48:56

Romans 1 18 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth and unrighteousness now if you keep reading to Romans 1 23 you get more context.

49:08

What's he talking about? There is a list of sins in Romans chapter 1, but before we get there, what do we have?

49:16

Idolatry, there's gonna be homosexuality in Romans chapter 1, but before we get to that there's idolatry the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and righteousness of men and then

49:25

Romans 1 23 says and they change the Glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like corruptible men.

49:31

So wrath went with idols here's one that Calvinist really like is Romans 9 17 a Calvinist takes you to Romans 9 17 and they just tell you man.

49:39

God really hated Pharaoh The individual and they would say yeah, he just hates these different people if he doesn't elect you then he hates you for the scripture says unto

49:49

Pharaoh even for the same purpose have I raised thee up that I might show my power in thee that My name might be declared throughout all the earth

49:55

Romans 9 17 and then Romans 9 22 says this what if God willing to show his Wrath, do you see the connection from this to Ephesians 2 11 2 3 you're the children of wrath by nature go down to verse 11

50:07

What are they they're Gentiles what's happening in Romans chapter 1 the wrath of God is revealed Revealed from heaven against all ungodliness into the image of a man made corruptible like the creatures now

50:18

Look at Romans 9 17 and put it in its true context of Exodus chapter 12 verse number 12 Does God just hate

50:25

Pharaoh for his depravity? That is not what this text is discussing Exodus 12 12 says I will pass through the land of Egypt this night

50:31

I will smite all the firstborn land of Egypt both man and beast and against all the gods of Egypt This was a text against idols

50:38

Romans 1 is against idolatry Romans 9 with Pharaoh is God over the idols and look at this in Acts 19 26

50:46

Ephesus at Ephesus but almost throughout all Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away much people saying that they be no gods which are

50:52

Made with hands. That's what Ephesians 2 3 is. They are the children of wrath. They're Gentiles They had been idolatrous and he taught them out of it now

50:59

Contextually with the whole New Testament doesn't make more sense than just coming in and saying hey your baby smell like a dead carcass and God Hates them by nature

51:07

Look at Galatians 2 14 we who are Jews by nature not sinners the Gentiles Well, did

51:13

Paul just say that Gentiles were the only sinners born by nature? Is he now saying that Jews are not sinners by nature?

51:20

We who are Jews by nature and not sinners as of the Gentiles wouldn't make somebody a Jew Circumcision plus ceremony made one a

51:28

Jew and nobody is born Circumcised that's not your nature to be circumcised.

51:33

You're born to Jewish parents who circumcise you and that becomes your custom What did nature mean for Gentiles?

51:39

They were born into idolatrous family and they by nature or custom were just idolatrous now. I don't know his background

51:46

But here's what we got today. I'm saying religious background Kids are gonna be raised up Calvinistic and I guess it's gonna take its hold and I would hope they would rebel against it

51:55

Not that they just leave Jesus not that they leave the Bible but a system that says God started you out in an uneven playing field

52:01

And I'll remember him. I don't care that you call me a Pelagian. I'm not and I'm not an Armenian either You're just born a baby.

52:07

You're ignorant. You don't have a moral compass. You're gonna have parents You're gonna have the world pushing on you.

52:12

And what you're gonna do is act 17. You're going to fill out for God Okay, I did not get an answer to my question.

52:24

I asked him is Romans 6 23 about physical death for the wages of sin is death

52:32

He knows if he gives in to death being physical there Then the debates over total gravity is true because babies that die in infancy physically

52:41

Why is that now that I've already played the clip where he thinks death is a natural part of God's design.

52:48

It's an intrusion That's why Paul calls death an enemy but think about this Babies that tragically do die

52:55

Physically, it's because of the sin of Adam when Adam sinned it brought physical death into the world

53:03

That's why he did not want to answer that. I knew that he was going to bring up Galatians 2 15

53:09

Let's talk about this a little bit because to me this is the wildest argument. I noticed he's trying to Reverse what

53:16

Jesus said right a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit

53:21

He wants you to believe you're born a good tree in the moment that you sin Well now you become a bad tree

53:28

That's just not what Jesus wrote and so in Ephesians 2 3 where it says we were by nature children of wrath

53:34

Notice what he did of trying to redefine nature You can determine your nature by the things that you do that only that not only reverses what

53:45

Jesus said But that's not being consistent with the word nature itself in Galatians 2

53:51

What is it 15 works against him? We ourselves are Jews by birth

53:57

Fousey This is the word for nature now He says a child becomes a Jew on the eighth day when it's circumcised well that is just patently false a baby is either

54:07

Jewish by birth or it is a Gentile by birth when you go back to Genesis chapter 17

54:13

God told Abraham the male Offspring this would be Jewish Hebrew offspring.

54:20

They are the ones to be circumcised the eighth day. You don't circumcise Gentile babies by birth and so this absolutely works against him

54:29

Jews are born Jews by birth. That is why they become circumcised now

54:34

Notice this is a way for him to do an illegitimate exegetical fallacy Even if I were to grant that Galatians 2 15

54:42

We're talking about secondhand nature or if you bark enough you can become a dog Let's say that that was a context somewhere else

54:49

Well, you have to deal with the context of Ephesians chapter 2 and so I do when I go back here

54:54

Let's just ask the question. What does the Bible say now, please pay careful attention because he wants to make

55:02

Emotional arguments to sway you all that's just so awful Jeremiah should just tell his son that he's going to hell

55:09

He absolutely ignored my opening argument I don't think babies go to hell so you can debate that with somebody else deal with my arguments

55:18

Caleb This is what? Ephesians 2 says so let's just slow it down and see what the

55:23

Bible says once again And you were dead in the trespasses of your sin

55:29

Caleb you have to deal with what the Apostle Paul says He says that you were dead a a converted audience that used to go against the ways of God But they have been converted.

55:40

But what was their initial state? They were dead. They were separated from God Now this text goes on to say no.

55:47

Oh, I know what else I want to say. He said that Babies that are totally depraved that means that they can't obey their parents

55:55

I don't think you understand what this debate is all about Caleb No man born can do something that's pleasing to God you can obey parents

56:05

But you can't obey parents in such a way to bring God honor and glory you've misunderstood

56:12

What the entire debate is all about even though man has a sinful desire and it's corrupt from the core

56:19

He can do outwardly Good ish things human to human but ultimately it's detestable before God Almighty That's the whole point.

56:28

He's talking about something else that I don't even believe And he said I don't see a difference between you and this hyper

56:35

Calvinist. I I get it You don't understand what we're even debating So when we go back to it says that we were dead in our trespasses and sins

56:44

It just means our entire life is in opposition to God the way that Romans chapter 1 talks

56:51

Of course, it's idolatrous the person that's outside of Christ their entire life is Suppressing the truth in their love for sin

56:59

So all sin is idolatrous Caleb that didn't help your case at all Verse 2 in which you once walked following the course of this world

57:07

Following the Prince of the power of the air the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience

57:13

Total depravity begins back in Genesis chapter 3 when Adam sinned

57:19

God told the serpent that deceived Eve Cursed are your offspring They will be in hostility to the offspring of the woman

57:27

That's a prophecy about Jesus Christ and all of mankind that are born in the likeness and corrupt soil of Adam They are in spiritual

57:37

They're in spiritual opposition to Christ. And so that's what he's talking about Genesis chapter 3 tells us that there is a curse because of Adam sin

57:47

And so it depicts all of mankind as sons of disobedience that are bound and held captive By Satan and so we bear personal responsibility because sin reigns in our flesh

57:59

That's Romans 5 6 & 7 and so we bear personal responsibility

58:04

Even though there is such a thing as covenantal curses and so verse 3 goes on to say among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh carrying out the

58:15

Desires of the body and of the mind that means of the body the things that we do Totally corrupt.

58:22

Can we do civil virtuous things to human to human sure But Jesus said there is none good but God alone

58:30

What it means is our very actions the things that we do with the body is all like filthy rags before God We need a miracle to happen in our heart

58:39

That's something else that he wouldn't tell me if he thinks being added to the Lord's Church is something miraculous or not

58:45

It's because he doesn't think coming to Christ is actually miraculous at all. And so we have

58:52

Something else that's really important total depravity is not the same thing as utter depravity we're not as sinful as we could be

58:59

God in his restraining grace keeps us from doing the absolutely worst conceivable things imaginable now it is true that we're all totally corrupt, but we're not all as Wicked in terms of the actions that we produce now everything that we do do from birth is in opposition to God But God by his grace restrains them and so here in verse 3 it says the body and the mind

59:24

So whether we think it whether it comes out of our heart and into our action It's all you know, absolutely in opposition to God.

59:32

And so something else I wanted to Mention here is he says that Satan? Ultimately blinds the eyes of unbelievers that doesn't make sense if we're already dead.

59:42

Well, there is a depth of depravity. We're already fallen sons of Adam and we're and we're sons of disobedience and of the wicked one

59:51

But we're not as sinful as we could be and so he absolutely conflates those categories

59:57

And I don't think he understands the difference. And so this is where this is inescapable

01:00:02

What does the Bible say that we were by? nature

01:00:08

Techno, which is children born of two parents He doesn't like this, but it's talking about those who were born their nature

01:00:17

Go run back to Galatians chapter 2 go run to 1st Corinthians 11 No matter where you go, you have to deal with the context of Ephesians chapter 2 were by nature children of Wrath and it says like the rest of mankind all of mankind born of two parents are

01:00:36

Under a curse and so here's the gospel of grace But God being rich in mercy because of the great love in which he loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses

01:00:47

Miraculously God made us alive together with Christ by grace.

01:00:53

You have been saved Caleb does not believe that we are saved by God's grace.

01:00:58

It's not Sufficient to bring us out of our depravity. He believes maybe

01:01:03

God's grace is necessary, but it's not sufficient He didn't like me appealing to him as being

01:01:09

Pelagian It doesn't matter if you claim to be a Pelagian or not. Go read the history books You believe the same thing as Pelagius you believe that were born innocent and pure you believe that by our own

01:01:20

Obedience we can achieve an everlasting Reward to be with God.

01:01:25

So that's that's what the history books say. You have a works rights and a salvation You are literally trying to bootstrap yourself to be made right with God And so when he makes emotional appeals ask yourself what does the

01:01:39

Bible say because God gets all the glory alone, not you and your Self -righteous obedience your works you need a heart change and that is something that only

01:01:50

God can do Caleb What he wants you to believe is that you can perform heart surgery on yourself.

01:01:55

Thank you so much Okay, Caleb. My first question is

01:02:02

Romans 6 23 for the wages of sin is death. Is that talking about?

01:02:08

Spiritual death only or is it referring to or including physical death? My time going okay, my answer to that is

01:02:18

Genesis chapter 3 22 When Adam and Eve were sinning it says in Genesis 3 22

01:02:24

The Lord God said behold man is become as one of us to know good and evil now Lest he put forth his hand and take also the tree of life and eat and live forever if they were made

01:02:36

Just to suffer death. Why is there a tree already there that's going to then give them eternal life They would have been made mortal this would have already been there in Genesis chapter 3 verse number 22 in Romans chapter 5

01:02:48

He's asking me is a spiritual or is it physical death? What's the reward in Romans chapter 5 the rock the reward in Romans chapter 5 is all spiritual

01:02:56

So why are we comparing a spiritual reward against a physical? Consequence he says in Romans chapter 5 it's got to be a physical death

01:03:05

But then he transitions it over and he turns it into a spiritual reward that doesn't do anything to the physical consequence

01:03:11

We all keep dying Which would go to my point earlier where I said he thinks that the curse in Adam Has to be greater than the cure in Christ because if we're all still dying physically and that's the whole curse that we have to Get out from underneath well, then nothing changed

01:03:25

Jesus died raised and people have faith some people don't and we're still all just out here physically dying

01:03:30

So really nothing changed in Romans chapter 5 if we're gonna call it spirit or call it physical death

01:03:39

Okay, I will take that as You think that's spiritual death and so my next question is if you still agree with what you said in this clip

01:03:49

Nowhere in the New Testament does it talk about Christ's righteousness becoming your righteous wrong video

01:03:55

I thought it Paul said when when the commandment came sin revived and I died man y 'all don't know that Paul died physically right there

01:04:04

That's a freebie This is not talking about physical death. That is so ridiculous

01:04:10

And think about this the same death Romans 5 6 7 Chapter divisions are not real.

01:04:17

He saw about the same thing 5 6 & 7 same death spiritual Just emphasize the question you believe that Romans 5 6 & 7 are always talking about the same kind of spiritual death

01:04:30

Okay. Well, he played a clip of me and I don't hear the contradiction but in Romans 7 9

01:04:35

He says I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came sin revived and I died

01:04:40

So that would still go back to what Jeremiah just said out of Romans 5 He's making the case that it's physical death and I would not and then he brought us over to Romans chapter 7 verse number 9

01:04:51

Nobody thinks that Paul physically died The moment that this sin would have occurred

01:04:56

I was alive without the law once the commandment came sin revived and I died and I Really can't believe that he's bringing up this passage anyways, because it goes against everything that we've discussed so far

01:05:08

How is he alive without the law? He should be dead already and then he says I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came sin revived and I died

01:05:16

How do you die a second time? Are you like I know I'm not in the question part, but it sounds like this is becoming physical death

01:05:21

Well, he just keeps on going because he's writing the Roman Epistle Sin, I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came sin revived and I died this would be spiritual death

01:05:31

Romans chapter 5 you got a spiritual reward. Why is it not spiritual death Romans chapter 5

01:05:37

Romans chapter 6 How are you being raised to life in Romans chapter 6 you're being raised to life and newness of life with Christ spiritually

01:05:44

We all see it there, I don't know if he sees it there But then you come into Romans 7 verse number 9. It's the same thing.

01:05:49

So I would answer Yes, Romans 5 6 & 7 are all discussing the same thing spiritual death spiritual reward

01:05:57

Thank you for that really long -winded question or answer to a long question So my next question is do you know where this verse is located

01:06:05

Christ being raised from the dead will never die again Death no longer has dominion over him.

01:06:13

Which version are you using? Like I'm not trying to trick you, but it may be okay Say it again for me one more time You can search it if you have to but Christ being raised from the dead will never die again

01:06:23

Death no longer has dominion over him. Where is that verse located? I don't know It's well, it's it's

01:06:30

Romans 6 verse 9. And so I get a minute here to frame my question You just said death is being used the same in Romans 5 6 & 7 and this is a defeater to your position you now you're forced to reconcile

01:06:46

Oh, well, Jesus must have died a spiritual death. Is that what you believe? Does that the end of your question?

01:06:53

Okay So he went to Romans 6 9 and he says knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more death has no more

01:07:00

Dominion over him and I guess because Jesus died physically He's now basically saying we have to go back to Romans 5 and make that physical.

01:07:06

Do we not all Already know that Jesus act on the cross benefited all of us what?

01:07:14

Spiritually, this was not Anything in Romans chapter 6. What does he say in Romans chapter 6?

01:07:19

He goes to verse number 9 I'm gonna go back to verse number 3. No, you're not that so many of us as we're baptized into Jesus Christ We're baptized into his death

01:07:25

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the

01:07:31

Father even so we also should walk in newness of life Obviously Jesus does something that's a physical act and we then all reap

01:07:38

Spiritual benefits. It's right there in Romans chapter 6. He goes to verse number 9 you go back up to verse number 4

01:07:43

It's spiritual Jesus dies physically. He sheds his blood on the cross. We produce faith

01:07:48

Romans 10 17 we produce faith. We obey the gospel for we've been planted together the likeness of his death

01:07:56

Well, that's not us physically dying He physically died, but we're playing in the likeness of his death.

01:08:02

Does that mean that we all physically die when we're baptized? We shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection Knowing this our old man is crucified with him that the body sin might be destroyed that henceforth

01:08:11

We should not serve sin. This is all still talking like it was in Romans 5 Spiritual benefit that was accomplished by Jesus physical act

01:08:19

So still yes, it's spiritual benefit. Just like it wasn't Romans 5 Romans 6 and Romans 7.

01:08:24

How much time do we have left? Yes Yes, what's the total time left

01:08:34

Okay, I would like to play a clip and then ask a follow -up question to it

01:08:41

Okay And his man it's going. Yeah, okay So before I play this clip noticed how

01:08:48

Caleb contradicted himself death in Romans 5 6 & 7 has to be always talking about Spiritual death now.

01:08:57

He wasn't gonna agree that Jesus died merely spiritually, but I want you to hear the clear

01:09:03

Contradiction, of course, Jesus physically died and that totally destroyed his whole paradigm

01:09:08

So here let me play a clip and ask a follow -up question Can this mean still that the

01:09:14

Spirit dwells within me my body personally? I don't think so not based on 1st Corinthians 3 16 people that say you need to have a

01:09:22

Experience with the Holy Spirit they're lying to you if I were to critique parts of the

01:09:29

Lord's Church parts of our Brotherhood, it would be on this point. I think that this is overall the weakest point in The theology of many in Church of Christ not everybody in Church of Christ, but many

01:09:42

I mean like where I went to school You know, I would be considered virtually a heretic for holding the viewpoint that I hold

01:09:48

That that the Holy Spirit is personally in Christians for the purpose of giving them strength

01:09:55

Enabling them to carry out God's Word But I think that this is such an important part of the gospel.

01:10:00

So you deny the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit This gentleman that is a preacher of the

01:10:06

Church of Christ. He affirms the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit How can you be the one true Church of Christ if y 'all cannot agree on gospel issues?

01:10:15

You already said that I was not saved anyways So like you're now trying to pit me against Mike I saw when it was like either in his second or third speech where he said

01:10:24

I was outside of Christ So, I don't know how it's even coming to this point. He doesn't think I'm saved I guess he doesn't think

01:10:30

Mike. I saw is saved. So now he's saying well you guys have a disagreement amongst yourselves Therefore what

01:10:37

I mean if he and I are totally depraved what difference does a disagreement on the Holy Spirit have to do with anything?

01:10:42

If we started agreeing more on the Holy Spirit, would that be a sign of somebody's election because Mike's not a

01:10:48

Calvinist And I'm not a Calvinist. I don't foresee us becoming Calvinist So what if me and Mike got together on an agreement on the spirit would we then be elect?

01:10:55

No, you'd still say we're depraved and going to hell Yeah Okay, that was a nothing burger of an answer to my question

01:11:05

Notice to Church of Christ cannot agree on the gospel and if the

01:11:11

Holy Spirit personally indwells I Just want everyone to know in my minute framing of this question that Caleb denies that the

01:11:20

Holy Spirit personally indwells you Romans chapter 8 says then you're not a child of God and so my

01:11:27

Next question is do you believe and if you deny this I have a clip I won't play it because you didn't like it when your own program lagged here

01:11:34

But do you believe that? Believers upon faith received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ Okay, I'm sorry you ask it's not gonna affect anybody's time.

01:11:44

What what did you say? So I have a clip of you saying that we do not become the righteousness of Jesus Christ Do you still believe that to this day?

01:11:53

I just have to say I don't know what you're getting at We become the righteousness of Christ. Yes. Well, I just answer it this way

01:11:59

Romans chapter 4 verse number 1 What shall we say then as that Abraham our father's pertaining to the flesh has found for if Abraham were justified by works

01:12:07

He hath whereof to glory but not before God for what says the scripture Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness

01:12:14

So I absolutely like out of Romans chapter 4 verse number 3 I believe that individuals who have faith they're counted for righteousness

01:12:22

That's the same thing as Philippians chapter 3 verse number 9 Paul said in Philippians chapter 3 verse number 9 and be found in him in Christ not having my own righteousness

01:12:31

Which is of the law but that which is through the faith of Christ the righteousness which of God by faith So I don't

01:12:38

We talked before I said to Jeremiah There's a lot of stuff that people in the church of Christ will say that I'll cringe at as much as you would

01:12:44

I'm not bootstrapping. I'm not trying to work my way to heaven. I know he says I will but in Philippians 3 9

01:12:50

I am Absolutely by faith counting on Jesus blood to take me to heaven and the same thing is said in Romans chapter 4 and the same

01:12:57

Thing is said in at the end of Romans chapter 7 where he says I thank God through my Lord Jesus Christ So that with the mind

01:13:03

I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin So I'm not trying to work my way to heaven I believe that we're counted for righteousness and by our faith

01:13:12

But when it says that we're counting for righteousness, it is actually saying that we're not going to be good enough So no, I don't believe in works based salvation

01:13:18

But I also don't believe in total depravity and I don't think that it necessitates one or the other

01:13:27

Okay, so this is the clip that I was referring to nowhere in the New Testament does it talk about Christ's righteousness becoming your righteousness and so Clearly 2nd

01:13:37

Corinthians 5 21 says for our sake the father made Jesus to be sin

01:13:42

Who knew no sin so that in him listen? We might become the righteousness of God Can you tell me anywhere in the context of 2nd

01:13:53

Corinthians chapter 5 of how we are not made the righteousness of God?

01:13:59

I think we're getting the same question just phrased in a different way and I tell you I guess He's wanting me to say that Jesus perfection gets implanted on us.

01:14:08

I don't see that being discussed in the text I think that the blood of Christ just saves us which is 1st

01:14:14

John chapter 1 verse number 7 We walk in the light as he's in the light. We have fellowship one with another the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sins.

01:14:23

I'm already saying you're being made righteous You're being counted as righteous you go back to Romans chapter 4 like it's

01:14:29

I'm not trying to just play ignorant here But I'm saying I don't know what else I could give more but in verse number 4

01:14:36

He says now to him that worketh is reward not reckoning of grace But to him that worketh not but believes on that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

01:14:43

Even as David also described blessed as a man to whom God imputeth righteousness without works. Yeah, I believe that We have a righteousness imputed to our account without works blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven?

01:14:54

It's not that we don't commit iniquities anymore. God forgives them whose sins are covered It's not that we don't sin anymore.

01:14:59

Our sins are covered So I believe my sins are covered and I believe Jesus saving me This is just an honest moment where I just have to say

01:15:06

I don't know what you're getting it Because even at the end of second Corinthians 5 I believe

01:15:11

I'm a new creature in Christ because of what second Corinthians 5 17 says I'm in Christ and his blood is saving me righteousness is being imputed to my account.

01:15:20

My sins are being covered So it's like I don't know what more I could say to that. That's all Bible Okay This will be my last question and I'll make sure to get it within a minute

01:15:34

So correct me if I'm wrong, but your position says since we don't have the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit nothing

01:15:41

Miraculous happens at the moment that we are added to the Lord's Church in baptism Well, I could say another way

01:15:47

You don't believe anything miraculous happens when someone receives Christ and as a child of God and if that is your position

01:15:55

What does the Bible say Romans 1 16 for I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God Unto salvation for everyone who is baptized

01:16:06

I mean believes and so are you saying that the power of God is something that is not miraculous,

01:16:14

I Would go to and we're almost done with his 15 -minute segment by the way I would just answer it at acts 8 verses 5 and 6

01:16:22

I don't think that anybody counted Philip preaching them as miraculous Philip went down the city

01:16:27

Samaria. He preached Christ in them I don't think anybody's counting that as miraculous and the people with one accord gave heed into those things

01:16:33

Which Philip spake hearing and seeing the miracles which he did Then verse number 12, he goes on and he baptizes these people do does anybody count them being baptized as a miracle?

01:16:43

And I would say no so a spiritual event is happening. But is it miraculous like Jesus walking on the water?

01:16:50

Is it miraculous like turning water into wine? Is it miraculous like healing a lame man? Is it miraculous like raising the dead?

01:16:56

Physically no, it's not gonna be a miraculous event. And so his time is up. Okay, can we bring up my slides

01:17:03

Joey? Okay, I think that should be able to be seen between the two of us

01:17:09

Question number one if this just obviously for the audience if we sin because we are born with a sinful nature

01:17:16

Why did Adam sin if he had no sinful nature if our sin is evidence of a sinful nature, then what did it evidence?

01:17:23

What did Adam sin evidence about his nature? Yeah, so this is rather pretty simple when we go back to the early chapters of Genesis Why did

01:17:37

Adam sin? Because he willfully chose to sin with his wife

01:17:42

Eve She was deceived, but he willfully said you know what I'm going to sin with her

01:17:48

And so that is the why to your question. It's actually pretty simple if you just go back to Genesis chapter 3 if our sin is evidence of our sinful nature

01:17:59

What did Adam sins sin evidence about his nature? Well his nature actually changed the moment that he ate of the forbidden fruit his eyes were open meaning that there was an

01:18:11

Experience now to sin that he did not have before and when you go to Romans chapter 5 chapter 6 chapter 7

01:18:19

It actually says that sin now reigns Infallen man and so one of the best ways to show this which this is a verse that you took out of context earlier

01:18:28

We read in Romans 7 verse 9 Paul says I was once alive apart from the law, but the commandment came sin came alive and I died now

01:18:39

He you believe that physical death and spiritual death are radically two separate things

01:18:45

What he what Paul is saying is that when he was exposed to sin The commandment his conscience came alive the law

01:18:53

Killed him and if you go on to read in verse 11 for sin sees an opportunity through the commandment

01:18:59

Deceived me and it killed me and so that's what happened when Adam sinned in the garden his eyes were open he

01:19:08

Experienced sin sin now reigns in his members that this wasn't Paul back in Romans Chapter 7 that he was alive spiritually as a baby, and then he sinned one time

01:19:18

It became he went from a good tree to a bad tree But the point here is saying that sin already existed in his life.

01:19:25

He was pricked by the law That it Okay, you kind of alluded to this in your own way in a recent debate

01:19:37

Braden Patterson recently said that Adam had free will because he was created of the dust of the earth that was in one of your

01:19:44

Speeches in its own way Adam was created the dust of the earth and we're not What difference does that make and then number two in the same slide?

01:19:54

Does Ecclesiastes 12 7 not say that when we die we return to the earth and his second Corinthians 4 7 does

01:20:00

Paul not say? That they were earthen vessels. So what difference does it make being made of dirt versus born of a woman?

01:20:06

Yeah, this actually highlights something very important Adam had he obeyed and would have ate from the tree of life

01:20:13

He would have lived forever now I think now obviously you think returning to the dust of the ground was natural as That is bonkers because death is called an enemy

01:20:24

Returning to the dust the ground is something that happened after God Cursed the ground because of Adam's sin

01:20:31

So this highlights that death is physical Caleb the wages of sin is

01:20:38

Physical death. Why do babies that die in infancy? Why do they experience death?

01:20:44

because of the sin of Adam and so You're just showing me that you don't understand the ramifications for returning back to the dust of the ground.

01:20:53

That is a functional definition of Physical death now you reject that and we clearly saw earlier in Romans 5 6 & 7.

01:21:02

It's not just always talking about Spiritual death. How do we know that? Well, it alludes to Jesus's death many times and you would be an absolute rank heretic if you think the

01:21:14

Jesus only died Spiritually, but you contradicted yourself. You said that death that Paul uses in Romans 5 6 & 7 only

01:21:23

Talks about spiritual death. Oh, yeah, except for Jesus because he died physically now

01:21:29

Jesus did not his physical death was not a result of the curse of Adam because Jesus Willingly laid his life down had he not laid his life down He was perfectly obedient and he would have lived forever

01:21:42

Like Adam in the garden if he would have obeyed now Jesus is the second and better Adam.

01:21:49

That is why you must put your faith alone in Christ alone in order to be made Right with God Okay His same connected to the same vein if we sin because we're sinners and we sin because of the flesh we got from Adam Why did angels who have no flesh?

01:22:07

why did they sin Psalm 8 5 says for thou has made him a little lower than the angels and Then 2nd

01:22:13

Peter 2 4 says for if God spared not the angels that sin So the whole idea is that we sin because it's our nature.

01:22:20

It's our nature because we got our flesh from Adam So why do these angels sin who are not from Adam?

01:22:27

Yeah, this is actually a really easy answer. In fact, we read about the fall of Satan in Isaiah chapter 14 in Ezekiel chapter 28 now,

01:22:37

I already know that you think Ezekiel 28 is not spiritual whatsoever the verse in Ezekiel 28 says

01:22:44

From the moment that I created you sinless and perfect now

01:22:49

Like I said, you think that's talking about babies and that context that hopefully you can ask me and we look back at it

01:22:56

It says when this happened in Eden So clearly what the prophet is addressing there is the spiritual power behind this camp

01:23:05

And if you're just asking me, why did the angels sin and rebel? Well Isaiah chapter 14 don't know if you think that's about Satan or Lucifer But it says that pride found itself in the heart of Satan And so what

01:23:19

I'm trying to show you is that sin doesn't just begin with Adam now that brought a curse on all of mankind but these moral

01:23:28

Spirit beings they chose to rebel against God chiefly with Satan. What does the

01:23:34

Bible say? Go look it up in Isaiah chapter 14 in Ezekiel chapter 28 That's talking about the fall of Satan pride found itself in his core now

01:23:46

And yes So Satan did come into the garden and he tempted the weaker vessel scripture says and deceived

01:23:53

Eve and so going back to one of your earlier questions Adam willfully chose to rebel against God why because he wanted to sin with Eve In Joshua chapter 7 you would call

01:24:09

Achan a picture of the federal headship Achan commits an action Everybody suffers with him or a number of people suffer with him and his family does

01:24:17

So in Joshua 7 if Achan is counted as the father if he's counted as a federal head

01:24:22

Does that mean that Jesse the father of David is David's federal head out of Isaiah 11 10 and 2nd

01:24:28

Samuel 21? David is suffering consequences for Saul's sin. Does that mean that Saul is also one of David's federal heads?

01:24:34

Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins. Well is Abraham also one of David's federal head?

01:24:39

He's the father of us all Romans 4 16 and then David is from Judah Does that mean that Judah Hebrew 714 is

01:24:46

Judah one of David's federal head? So in all do you say that David had five federal heads his dad?

01:24:52

Abraham Judah and then Adam Thanks for the question.

01:24:58

It demonstrates that you have no idea what federal headship means Federal headship means that you are represented by someone else

01:25:06

Caleb It's very similar like our president of the United States represents us in some way

01:25:12

I'm glad you brought up Achan because Achan Represented his family when

01:25:18

Achan sinned guess what happened as a result of Achan sin his whole family

01:25:24

Physically died and so after listening to you talk about federal headship, and you're asking if he had five federal heads no, he had the federal head of Adam before he put his faith alone in the coming

01:25:37

Christ and When when he is trusting in the Savior now He's under a new federal head since you like to use our full two minutes

01:25:46

This is what the this is what Romans 5 is talking about It actually builds on the principle of federal headship because all of those who are of faith.

01:25:55

They are the children of Abraham Abraham is a kind of federal head a kind of Spiritually or a father for all of those of faith.

01:26:06

There's a deeper principle working on that we can be in some way Represented by someone else and so Romans 5 talks about you are either under Adam which brings about condemnation and physical death

01:26:18

And I just want to remind you that it's you the fact that you still think that Romans 5 6 & 7 is about spiritual

01:26:25

Well, then you might as well say that Jesus died spiritually and then everyone would say wow

01:26:31

That is the worst kind of heretical position to hold you can't say that so you have to make an exception and say but Jesus Brought about spiritual benefits.

01:26:40

That wasn't my question earlier. I said did he die Physically because you know if you say yes, then you saying that death always means spiritual.

01:26:49

Well that goes right out the window Okay, my last last one was 1689

01:26:56

London Confession talks of elect infants dying in infancy are Regenerated does that not then imply that non elect infants die?

01:27:05

unregenerated and also the same thing London 1689 says that they elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated

01:27:12

But Martin Luther said in his Romans commentary that the death of the infant itself is a sign of his guilt

01:27:18

So, how can the infant be showing us that he's guilty in his death and then also simultaneously be regenerated in his death

01:27:30

Yeah, yeah No, I appreciate you you pulling this up because you misunderstand the point of Romans 6 23

01:27:38

But I think you understand the ramifications if Romans 6 23 is talking about physical death

01:27:45

So let's read the whole verse for the wages of sin is death. What kind of death question mark?

01:27:51

We know you think it's spiritual death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our

01:27:57

Lord the whole point of the Westminster and Martin Luther is showing us that if infants die

01:28:04

Then it shows us that they are under the sin of Adam now within Christianity we talk about the extent of that condemnation and I just want everybody else to know that we can still talk about those things but what

01:28:20

Caleb has to disprove are all the different versions of Total depravity and so the fact that some people don't think that guilt or condemnation is imputed to the infants

01:28:30

Well fine, we can charitably have a loving discussion of what Romans 5 is talking about But he believes that we're born innocent and pure and that Romans 5 6 and 7 is talking about Spiritual death every single time and we know that that is wrong because Jesus Died physically and so when you ask me, how can an infant death be a sign of the guilt and election?

01:28:55

very simply because they physically died and that goes all the way back to Genesis chapter 3 when

01:29:01

God when Adam sinned against God He ultimately said cursed is the ground because of you

01:29:07

Adam for you were created out of dust pay attention To dust you shall

01:29:13

Return and so God is saying the curse of death is upon you because of your sin and all your posterity

01:29:20

When you go look at Romans chapter or Genesis chapter 5 we see the sons of Adam They all died he died and he died and he died.

01:29:29

Okay, so if it's with the same questions on screen We still have time for one more

01:29:35

Okay, if the question on the screen the one in 1689 confession says that they're elect infants dying in infancy are

01:29:41

Regenerated is it not the case that if God does not select your child to be regenerated?

01:29:48

None of the education that you give JJ none of the structure will be doing anything for him

01:29:53

He will at some point show his reprobateness He at some point will just consistently live out his depravity

01:29:59

If it's the case that God does not choose to elect your child. None of your parenting will do any value.

01:30:06

Is that true? So I get two minutes. Yeah No, I actually really appreciate the question because once again

01:30:12

It just shows that you don't understand the sovereignty of God God doesn't just simply know the future but he declares the end from the beginning

01:30:21

God doesn't just Randomly choose some people for heaven some people for hell

01:30:26

I know you think that's our position, but many of us have studied this clearly can see that but God uses the means to bring about the end and so The means in JJ's life is that he hears the gospel.

01:30:40

He hears the gospel And yes, I pray that one day God in his grace and mercy not something that he owes us that would he would regenerate

01:30:50

JJ's heart because he is under the curse of Adam something that everyone sees and JJ will physically die one day but God in his mercy

01:30:58

I pray that he would use me as a means along with the means of my beautiful wife the the babe of all babes alley out there that we would

01:31:07

Saturate him with love and with grace that we bring him to church But what I hope everyone is seeing is that you think even though you deny it that you're not a

01:31:16

Pelagian Even though you believe the same thing that Pelagian taught and not by your good works, even though it's literally your good works

01:31:23

That that by your own merit you go to heaven Well, obviously we're saved by grace apart from the works that we do.

01:31:30

So yes my prayers I don't claim to be the sovereign God to know if he is going to heaven But I pray that God uses the means of JJ's parents me and Allie That he would kiss the

01:31:43

Sun in faith as Psalms chapter 2 talks about and so that's the thing that I want to leave

01:31:48

Everybody on is God who ordains the ends He also uses the means of the preaching of the gospel.

01:31:55

And as you heard Caleb said earlier The gospel it's saving power is not miraculous

01:32:01

You do not need the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit to accomplish anything. Let it

01:32:07

Okay. All right Well now we're moving into our call -in segment where the audience gets to go back and forth was

01:32:13

If you're gonna do it you got to turn your TV down or otherwise, we'll get some feedback. Okay, Carla, you're on you're online

01:32:22

Okay Could you describe the difference between Calvinism and hypercalvinism hypercalvinism?

01:32:29

Excuse me. You seem to be completing the two during your debate Thank you. Okay. Thank you can

01:32:35

I describe the difference between Calvinism and This is all 15.

01:32:40

This is a 15 minute window if you want to talk Like a minute on it you can but it was directed at me.

01:32:47

I Don't really see a difference I see that some people are consistent with their Calvinism like Shirley Phelps and then there are people who are inconsistent like Jeremiah you

01:32:56

Take what James White said he James White was trying to be consistent And he said look I think that some people some babies are gonna be like just like the adults are gonna be like That's just the way it's gonna go.

01:33:05

So no, I don't see a difference I think that some people are consistent some are not we talked about a primitive

01:33:11

Baptist Primitive Baptists often don't even try to evangelize and there are five points of Calvinism leads them to that I think that's a consistent way for Calvinism.

01:33:20

I think that you're probably active Jeff Durbin is active I don't know why they try to be active because unless God regenerates and there's nothing that can happen.

01:33:28

You want to talk to it? Yeah, how much time you want to give me? We're just kind of freewheeling, but let's try to there's another call

01:33:35

If I could speak that real quick. So how I would distinguish Calvinism versus hyper Calvinism Is the conclusion and this to me is very practical is the conclusion that it doesn't matter what we do since God has

01:33:48

Those that he shows mercy and grace to save versus those that he leaves in their depraved state

01:33:54

The difference is the the Calvinist those that recognize the doctrines of grace that God is sovereign is that he uses means to bring about His end goal so the reason why

01:34:04

I would evangelize is because the elect aren't going to come to saving faith and less Romans chapter 10 they hear the good news of the word so hyper

01:34:13

Calvinist would say nope got arbitrarily zapped some Regardless of what I do. I recognize that God uses so nobody will be saved that doesn't come in contact with a soul winner

01:34:23

With with someone that preaches the gospel of grace apart from works Okay, so they had to come in contact with a Calvinist to be safe.

01:34:29

No There's Arminians that so we'll read there for more fundamentally is on what the gospel is you think it's not miraculous

01:34:36

You don't need the Holy Spirit for anything. It's by your obedience that you can achieve an eternal word for me

01:34:42

I recognize that we are depraved not seeking after God from birth by our nature

01:34:48

And so we need something miraculous that the gospel brings and it's not trusting in our own works

01:34:53

But trusting in the finished work of Christ. Okay next call you're on live I tried this Question is for mr.

01:35:00

Jeremiah, so I was wondering Since you think that Romans 6 23 is talking about physical death if you go back to Genesis It says in the day you eat from the tree

01:35:11

You shall surely die which also first Kings chapter 2 verses 37 to 42 quote when

01:35:18

Sodom and talks to him about it Talks to I can't remember his name Talking about it, but if you go to Isaiah 59 verses 1 and 2

01:35:26

It says your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God. So, how do you think that Adam's death is physical in the garden?

01:35:35

Great question number one I would say we have to look at the context of Romans to see how Paul is using the word thanatos

01:35:41

Which definitely means termination of physical life the same type of federal headship is used in 1st

01:35:47

Corinthians 15 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This is at the parisia the second coming of Jesus the second coming.

01:35:55

He's gonna Destroy physical death. So that's how Paul applies that in two important passages talking about federal headship when we go back to Genesis Chapter 3 our

01:36:06

Genesis 2 17 It says for in the day that you eat and so in Hebrew it emphasizes on the action

01:36:12

And so when Adam sinned against God now, he entered into a new day

01:36:17

It's not qualified by evening and morning, but an evil day. So the moment that Adam sinned

01:36:22

Everything changed because he was supposed to subdue the entire world And so my point is it's not talking about a 24 -hour window because it's not qualified by evening and morning last point

01:36:34

Ephesians chapter 6 Paul even says that we are to gird ourself against the enemy in the evil day

01:36:41

And so the physicality of that death is Adam lived 930 years in that evil day and then he physically died by returning to the dust the ground which was a

01:36:52

Result of the curse kind of sounds like he's doing what I was doing in Romans 6 He just said well, you're gonna die, but it doesn't actually mean dying

01:37:00

Well in Romans 6 he wanted it to be physical death and I said there's another option Well, he went back to Genesis 3 like the caller wanted

01:37:06

He said the caller was saying that Adam did not die the day that he did it and then he said well It really didn't mean that just mean he was going into a new state

01:37:12

Okay, you're on what does the Bible say Yeah, my questions are Jeremiah right there.

01:37:18

You brought up Ephesians 2 3 a few times There's three different Greek words that use that we use to define what nature is

01:37:25

Paul use fushi right there, which is actual Habit -forming. So why do you believe that we are born into sin when in Ephesians 2 3 the fushi there?

01:37:35

According to Thayer is habit -forming which means that is something that you actually do in a conscious of doing.

01:37:41

Thank you Great question. You didn't quote the full definition of Thayer's it says a mode of action

01:37:48

So that move that mode is set on a trajectory from birth and that habit of sin is demonstrated to the world

01:37:55

And so the caller is doing what Caleb would do earlier is saying that if you do something by habit enough

01:38:01

Then you can actually change your nature and it's absurd because if you do something like quack like a duck or bark like a dog

01:38:08

Enough you don't change your nature by what you do Jesus said a bad tree produces bad fruit

01:38:15

But in the Church of Christ theology the restorationist movement going all the way back to Pelagius what

01:38:21

I'm hearing is where you're born innocent and pure and based on your

01:38:26

Disobedience, then you can fundamentally change your nature And so that's not what

01:38:31

Paul is getting at you have to deal with the the three words that is technon fusi Orgasm, you can't just deal with one and not the full context

01:38:39

And so by birth of two parents you receive the condemnation or wrath of God yeah, my response to that would be

01:38:46

Jeremiah chapter 10 verse number two through three when the Jews are going into Babylon if Everybody's depraved whether Jew or Gentile.

01:38:53

Why does Jeremiah the prophet? Why does he have to say learn? Not the way of the heathen be not dismayed of the signs of heaven for the heathen are dismayed at them for the customs

01:39:03

Of the people are vain Customs they go in they learn their customs and then the

01:39:09

Gentiles are going to learn good things from the Jews So I would agree with the caller and it's all over the Old Testament text customs learning mingling.

01:39:17

Okay, this is a new fault You're on. What does the Bible say? Jeremiah so he used

01:39:24

Joshua 7 about aching and his Offspring my question is what's aching children grown or babies and if they and is it possible that they were grown therefore

01:39:35

Violating that James 417 that says therefore to him that know to do good and do if it's not to him

01:39:41

It is sin so big probably could have known that what aching was doing was wrong did not tell about it. That's my question

01:39:48

Yeah, well, what does the Bible say? It doesn't say if they were grown or not, but what the

01:39:53

Bible has clearly said is all of mankind Is by nature children of wrath so you have to deal with the exegesis of Paul But what the sin of Achan and Ezekiel 18 shows us that covenantal curses are true

01:40:07

We can't just say well the soul that sins shall die and that's the end -all be -all Well, what about the souls who do not have personal sin that still died and a feed or Genesis chapter 2?

01:40:20

With the the consequence of Adam's sin into Genesis chapter 3 We know why physical death is a reality it's because we all bear the curse of Adam and so that is what total depravity is all about is that we are represented by Adam and His sin and we desire to do the things that he did

01:40:39

That's when we need something miraculous to take place in our heart And then I would say back to what he's saying with what the caller saying

01:40:45

Did they know what was going on in the caller quoted from James chapter 4 or James chapter 2? 417 thank you 417 to him that knows to do good and does it not

01:40:54

Jeremiah would say it doesn't matter what you know You're just totally depraved and unless God elects you then you're just gonna keep on doing that So who's at fault not the person because they're only acting in accordance with their nature and they have that option

01:41:06

You can call it free will but when you only have one option, it's not a selection Hope I think I left somebody.

01:41:11

I think I missed that call your home. What does the Bible say? Yeah, this question is for Jeremiah Psalm 127 verse 3 says behold children are a heritage from the

01:41:25

Lord. The fruit of the womb is a reward and in this psalm it describes children as a heritage from the

01:41:31

Lord. How does this fit with the belief of total depravity? Thank you, yeah, that's a great question because even though Adam sinned and all of his posterity or by nature children of wrath

01:41:43

We are still made in the image of God, but it's broken. It's marred We now possess the fallen tainted image of Adam also

01:41:52

And so I believe what the psalm is talking about is even though we are in a sin -cursed world Children are a blessing to parents.

01:42:00

It brings us a joy. We both have Children and it's a beautiful thing. Like I look at JJ we laugh we have so much fun now

01:42:08

I pray that God in his grace would transform him But it is an absolute blessing and I'm trying to train him up in the way of the world so I can

01:42:15

Be like having an arrow in my quiver to shoot him out into the world to share the love of Christ So my big point is even though all of mankind is totally depraved the image of God still shines through That broken and marred image and to that I would say acts 539 if God has selected

01:42:34

JJ to Eternally stay in his depravity and not be regenerated. Would you not then be fighting against God's will you're trying to do something?

01:42:42

Which is x5 39, but if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it Let's happily be found even to fight against God is a

01:42:47

Calvinist who actually tries to teach his child Not actually trying to thwart God's will that they be reprobate and then go to hell.

01:42:53

Okay Caller did we get you already? This is what his

01:42:58

Bible say Can you hear me now? This is Jared. Yeah, I hear you. What up, Jared?

01:43:04

All right. Hey So I guess I have two questions. I'll just ask one So I guess my question has to do with Romans 5.

01:43:13

I wasn't really clear with Caleb's position on that Because it kind of seemed like it was that it's physical death only with Jesus, but with everything else

01:43:21

It's a spiritual death. Am I correct with that in Romans chapter 6 like he went to Jesus died on the cross.

01:43:27

It gives Spiritual benefit to those who have faith Okay, I guess

01:43:34

I guess well, yeah Now I'm standing close to you. So I feel the need to be a little bit kinder

01:43:42

But the point is that Jesus died Physically and so you can't make a sweeping statement that Paul and Romans 5 6 and 7 is only talking about spiritual death because you have to bend with Jesus and the whole point is when you go back to Genesis 2 and 3 and 5 is

01:44:01

Death is not merely Spiritual Romans 7 9 is not merely Spiritual it's showing that his his conscience was awakened and that he realized that sin was already in his members and so the point is

01:44:16

Spiritual and physical death are two sides to the same coin Meaning when the power of sin reigns in your members spiritual death

01:44:24

It guarantees that it's appointed for every man to die once and so spiritual death

01:44:31

Physical death are two sides the same I don't know why you guys are not looking at the life side of it So in Romans chapter 6 verse number 4 a person who begins new life, is it physical or spiritual?

01:44:42

Wait, we can we can download I guess Roman 6 Romans 6 for the caller

01:44:47

I think was actually asking me the question in Romans chapter 6 verse number 4 It's uh that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the

01:44:54

Father Even so also we should walk in newness of life. So you were already physically alive Even before you quote became regenerated as an elect person, so you're not counting that as some type of double physical life

01:45:07

So why or would we ignore the spiritual aspect of the death in Romans 5 and Romans 6 so I get to respond

01:45:15

No, I think you already answered that question and I do a quick follow -up, we're gonna go to them. All right, you're on live

01:45:24

Did you say that name is that who we already talked to I do not know I want to Okay, you're on line

01:45:36

Hello, so I have a question for Caleb. Yes first Timothy 1 13 through 16

01:45:45

How does this first fit in with your theology if you're saying he was innocent and not

01:45:52

Guilty due to Romans chapter 7. He said that he acted in ignorance and unbelief

01:45:58

How do you fit this in with that verse? Are you still there? Yes.

01:46:04

Okay. Just I'm sorry. Try to reframe it for me one more time so Jeremiah's position was that He was talking about a point where he was dead in his own personal understanding of his life

01:46:18

He wasn't talking about being dead necessarily spiritually and In first,

01:46:27

Tennessee that would fit to support his position because he said when he wasn't a Christian that he acted in ignorance and unbelief

01:46:36

Alive Spiritually, he was just saying in his understanding. He died

01:46:44

Okay, my response to that question is why is he saying it this way I would then ask a second question I'm gonna answer with a question.

01:46:50

Why is he even saying because if Paul knows all about total depravity Why is Paul not just saying look guys?

01:46:56

I was acting in accordance with my nature and then God regenerated me and I stopped acting in line with that depraved nature

01:47:03

See, that's what I'm saying the inconsistence with Calvinism one moment We're doing things because we have to do them and then the next one we're saying.

01:47:11

Oh, we didn't know any better You're totally dead and you can't do anything but just that one.

01:47:16

That's my answer. Why is it not his depravity instead of his ignorance? Okay Well Paul does say that not only at nauseam when we appeal to Ephesians 2 verse 3 but in Romans 7, we're gonna come to you just a moment

01:47:31

Paul says for I know that nothing good dwells in me That is my flesh for I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out

01:47:40

And so before Paul's conversion, we would expect him to be acting ignorantly to the things of God but he loved the things of the flesh and so what

01:47:49

Paul argues for in that passage that the Caller alluded to is by the miraculous work of the love of Christ shined in his heart and now he loves the

01:47:58

Savior Okay. Well, I don't know. I he said our time is up. Okay, excuse me,

01:48:05

Jeremiah You get to go first with your closing five minute Closer, do you need anything?

01:48:11

Oh, you're just good to go. We can change the oh, yeah My screen needs to come off for him Back to his

01:48:19

Well, thank you so much Caleb for inviting me to this debate

01:48:25

I thought it was excellent. What I want to leave people with is Total depravity is the backdrop of showing how miraculous the grace of God must accomplish to bring us out of that that dead state and so I've been appealing to Ephesians chapter 2 that's probably one of the best case

01:48:46

That's where I wanted to stake my case into saying that our nature now He appealed to Galatians 2 15 that you have those that were born as a

01:48:56

Jew Well, then you don't become a Jew the eighth day You're circumcised you are circumcised because you're a

01:49:03

Jew My point is nature is talking about those that are born of two parents So I want to leave us on this high.

01:49:10

The total depravity is a curse of Adam. That's awful, right? That is the sin that has been imputed to all mankind

01:49:17

By one means sin and trespass brought condemnation for all of mankind

01:49:22

That's what the Bible says. You have to try really hard to redefine that but we see in Ephesians 2 3

01:49:29

We were all by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind but God God being rich in his mercy because of the great love in which he loved us

01:49:41

Even when we were dead in our trespasses God miraculously made us alive together with Christ By grace you have been saved the gospel of grace is

01:49:53

I Look to Jesus Christ and his finished work plus nothing on my end

01:50:00

And so faith isn't something that you just muster up It's not something that you try really hard to to think about You know, what'd be interesting is if we got into talking about if two

01:50:11

People had the same amount of information given to them Why is it that one would look to the

01:50:16

Sun and the other? Reject now in his position one has to be holier than the other one has to do more

01:50:22

Obedient works than the other one and it's just arbitrary while one shows and the other rejected It was just because of their libertarian free will but we know better We understand all of mankind have been cursed by the sin of Adam and so the fact that anyone is saved is by the miraculous work of the

01:50:39

Holy Spirit that takes out that dead sinner's heart and gives them a new Living heart that looks to Jesus Christ and faith alone and God gets all the glory alone

01:50:50

And so his position historically is called Pelagianism Pelagius taught that you are born

01:50:57

Perfect and where they were where he would differ with Pelagius is that Pelagius said that it is

01:51:04

Possible to live a sinless life. It's possible now Caleb in his last programs has said that that's impossible

01:51:11

It's never gonna happen Well, if one day you're you're sinlessly perfect and then another day happens and it's sinlessly perfect Well, you follow that logic out

01:51:19

Pelagius was right on your terms. You're just being Inconsistent at that point and think about it why

01:51:25

Caleb has to make so many emotional appeals He believes in his own goodness in his own flesh that he can be made right with God You gotta get into those watery graves of baptism to have your past sins washed away

01:51:39

That's not the God that's not the gospel of grace Baptism is a beautiful picture a likeness like the verse that he quoted in Romans chapter 6 it's a likeness of Jesus's death burial and Resurrection for us to come to newness of life takes the sovereign hand of God Coming upon us now.

01:51:59

Remember he does not think that the gospel has any miraculous work of God It has spiritual benefits, but when we talk about death

01:52:07

It's done right for the wages of sin is Physical death now

01:52:13

He knows that that he cannot give in to that position because babies that die physically

01:52:18

Why did that happen now? He has to say well, that's just a part of the natural world

01:52:24

Adam Even though he disobeyed had he obeyed he has to say he still would have died 930 years later that is absurd because scripture calls death an

01:52:36

Enemy death is a result of Adam's sin And so when babies do tragically die it is because of the sin of Adam But my position is even though a baby does not deserve to go to heaven

01:52:49

I believe God in his mercy and his grace. He regenerates that baby not because that they're pure and innocent

01:52:57

But it's because God in his grace and mercy does this miraculous work?

01:53:02

And so please look to Jesus Christ in your faith plus no works of all plus nothing else

01:53:08

He is the perfect Savior and his obedience was never tainted by sin And so if you're looking to yourself and your own obedience, well, that is to contradict the gospel of grace.

01:53:18

Thank you so much Okay, as we close tonight what I would like to do is remind everybody what

01:53:25

Jeremiah's Creed actually says the 1689 Baptist Confession says that men are corrupted by nature conveyed to all their posterity

01:53:33

Distending from them in the ordinary generation being now conceived in sin by nature children wrath Subjects of death and all miseries and it says from this original corruption whereby we are utterly indisposed

01:53:44

Disabled like you said earlier You're a dead corpse that stinks made opposite to all good and holy inclined to all evil and do proceed to all actual transgressions

01:53:52

I would encourage people to actually read Jeremiah's Creed the 1689 confession and see if I took them out of context or if it's in Fact what their book says you cannot will

01:54:04

Anything good, but as we close out tonight We pay attention to context before you get to Romans chapter 5 not

01:54:09

Romans 3 again But in Romans chapter 4 all over Romans chapter 4 is a discussion of a man's will and what

01:54:16

I'm closing out with is It's possible to have a high view of God without having such an abysmal view of his creation in Romans chapter 4

01:54:25

What does it say about Abraham? Who hope against hope believed in hope that he might become the father many nations and being not weak in faith

01:54:33

He considered on his own body now dead and he staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief

01:54:38

But was strong in faith and being fully persuaded verse number 21 that what God had promised he was able also to perform

01:54:44

What value of motivation does that text give us if what the 1689

01:54:50

London Confession says is true that we can't will So you're someone who has a dead will who can't do anything and you read

01:54:57

Romans 4 and you say boy Look at Abraham. He believed against hope. He kept his faith. He was not weak in faith He didn't stagger at the promise and he was fully persuaded

01:55:04

Jeremiah Nordea comes in and says yeah, that's because he was elect and his nature was changed But you guys haven't been elect your reprobate and you need to have your nature changed.

01:55:12

It's not just before Romans 5 It's also after Romans 5. It's a man's will. What does

01:55:18

Paul mean when he says this? I know that in me that is in my flesh dwells No good thing for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good.

01:55:25

I find not If he's a depraved person, how does he have this will again having one option of your will is not free will

01:55:32

That's like Henry Ford saying you can have it in any color as long as it's black. That's not an option He says I find in me will to perform how to perform

01:55:40

I find not Jesus said Matthew 26 41 the spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak

01:55:46

We can't be perfect I haven't claimed that we could be perfect and he said something about one day to the next look one day to the next is not

01:55:53

How perfection works once you have been flawed you're flawed But just because we cannot be perfect does not then mean that we are totally depraved and don't forget that's their tagline

01:56:02

They like to get away from it, but it is total depravity Look at Matthew 26 41 my spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

01:56:10

Does that necessitate? totality of Inability. No, it just means that sometimes

01:56:16

I miss it and that's what he said in Romans 7 Sometimes I do the things I don't want to do sometimes I do the things that I'd like to do

01:56:22

Isn't total inability the extreme response to perfectionism and didn't both come from the

01:56:28

Roman Catholic sect Augustine was a Romanist. He gave them all this stuff and then

01:56:33

John Calvin birthed the egg that he laid I would like for us to think about Nehemiah 1 11 as we go out and I'm saying this y 'all

01:56:39

Willing to will is something these individuals who pick up a Bible these individuals who start looking in the right direction

01:56:46

Jeremiah says that's nothing because the London 1689 confession also says this you can have false

01:56:51

Hope you can try to be good and maybe think you're on the right way And then that God will still just send you to hell look at Nehemiah 1 11

01:56:58

He says I beseech you let not your ear let now your ear be attended to the prayer of thy servant and to the prayer

01:57:04

Of the servants who desire to fear you These are people coming out of captivity why because they had been idolatrous for a while But what does it say about him now?

01:57:12

They do want to fear you Same thing in Isaiah 26 verse number 9 with my soul have I desired thee in the night?

01:57:19

Yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee early Isaiah chapter 26 back in Isaiah 6.

01:57:24

What did he say? What did he say about himself? What was me? I'm a man of unclean lips and I dwell among a people of unclean lips

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The consistent theme of the Bible is in perfect people who strive with God they strive to be with God They try to please

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God this idea that you can't do the right thing all the time. Oh, it's a sign of depravity That's not anywhere in the

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Bible and it's certainly not going to have anything to do with your babies Your babies are learning your babies have to have structure and also

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Babies being intelligent doesn't equal out to babies being manipulative What we have to come down to is what I opened up with the goodness of God Read the 1689

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London Confession, you're not gonna see a good God, but you will see an evil dictator Read your Bible read it cover to cover

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You're gonna find imperfect people trying to please God making mistakes along the way and as they make mistakes along the way

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It does not then mean that they were totally depraved to will is something read

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Romans 7 Paul said I struggle with myself, but I try to serve God. Okay, that's the debate for tonight

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Jeremiah If you come back on screen, we're done and that's the whole process, but I do want to say