Interview on Apologetics! Topics: Sola Scriptura, Cults, Eschatology, & Theonomy w/ @ThetaMinistries

The Apologetic Dog

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:24

Hello everybody, welcome back to Theta Ministries in podcast. I'm your host Wes and today we have a very very special episode

00:31

I This is uh, my brother Jeremiah. I found him about a week ago, and he was doing a

00:37

Debate review between Layton flowers and James White Notably two gigantic opponents.

00:43

It's a lot of drama surrounding their their ministry or whatever But be that as it may I contacted him and I reached out to him and I said hey you wouldn't do a video

00:51

Do it so here we are So I just want to get to know you

00:56

Jeremiah a little bit. Tell me a bit about yourself and what you do Leslie, thanks for having me on So my day job is

01:06

I'm a hospice chaplain I've been doing that for a little bit over two years and so I've been able to share the gospel and just minister to people

01:14

It's been an incredible Time doing that but I also serve my heart and passion is

01:19

I'm a pastor and elder at 1225 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas a part of the church plant.

01:24

They were a little bit over three years old And so hopefully in the near future, I'll be able to just be able to do that full -time and I love my church family

01:32

It's been incredible Wesley and they're just like hey, Jeremiah, you should definitely pursue Apologetics and I'm like,

01:39

I would love it. And so out of my church family support and the babe of all babes

01:44

That's my wife with Ali's support and blessing. She said yes You should definitely pursue apologetics

01:49

Jeremiah. And so I have an apologetics ministry. That's Around two years old.

01:55

So I'm still the new kid on the block in the apologetics arena but you can find a major part of my content and my youtube channel the apologetic dog and People ask me like why dog why dog with the beard?

02:09

I'm like, well, we're reformed number one. So you gotta have a beard every every I think I have a good beard. That's why Yeah Yeah, and when you look at the apologetic dog logo, you'll see first Timothy 620 kind of embedded in the logo and I spent a lot of time and prayer with my wife about Where the the vision of the ministry should be aimed at to at least let people know my heart and I'm a student of Cornelius Avantille and Greg Bonson and a lot of Bonson's work and apologetics

02:38

Very precept in nature automatically from the get -go a precept Okay, like when you look at the intro to my videos, it's gonna say reformed apologetics

02:48

Trinitarian apologetics worldview apologetics And presuppositional apologetics and so that's kind of I'll let people know we're out of the gate where I'm coming from And so I either make friends really fast or I make enemies really right?

03:00

No, there is there is no neutrality when it comes to this This the sin of neutrality for all my suckers out there.

03:07

They know we're talking about Yeah, yeah, I actually I made a quote a couple days ago.

03:12

I think it was pretty cool And I'm not trying to trademark it or copyright it but I said, um, I think

03:17

I legitimately think Priceless conservatism is worse than unbelief

03:23

It's trying to play neutrality on non -neutral grounds, but right good good

03:28

No, well, I'm glad that you're already familiar with and a presuppositional apologetics and thinking transcendentally

03:35

We'll get more into that. And so I'll start with my wife I just said, you know, I I don't want to be just so confined to the doctrines of grace

03:43

That's why we were starting to think about DOG dog And so when I when I thought back to first Timothy 620

03:49

Paul is telling Timothy Oh Timothy guard The deposit entrusted to you and so kind of the

03:56

Eureka moment happened with me and my wife were like, hey Apologetic dog that guards the gospel of grace.

04:01

This is all Christians and that verse continues to say Wesley avoid irreverent babble pagan philosophy, right and contradictions of what is falsely called

04:12

Knowledge and so there's my precept coming out because we do apologetics. We don't switch gears from theology to apologetics

04:19

No, your theology informs drive your apologetics. Yes. Yes I love sharing this quote with people but John frames said presuppositional ism is

04:30

Sola scriptura applied. Yes. I just tell people I'm never leaving the Word of God my sign over here usually it will say

04:37

John 17 17 where Jesus says your word is truth and The the

04:43

Word of God is necessary in order to contextualize and understand the human experience

04:49

So anyway, that's a little bit of the apologetic dog and you might find this interesting Wesley So with apologetics a lot of a lot of apologetics is just defensive by nature now

05:00

I tell people Apologetic is also offensive by nature because I'm Jude 1 verse 3 that just says we're to contend for the faith.

05:06

That's once Yep But in Jonesboro, Arkansas, there are a lot of Church of Christ.

05:14

And so I just tell people that's a sect That's a kind of denomination. I don't say that in in terms of saying

05:21

I welcome them in the fold, but the Church Christ Our restoration is a group that comes from Alexander Campbell and one of their claims to fame is you have to be baptized?

05:32

In order to have your past sins washed away and the more that I've interacted with the

05:37

Church Christ They they preach a false gospel that cannot save according to Galatians chapter 1 and the the anathema

05:44

It's my point is I have a heavy emphasis Contending with the Church of Christ just doing debates with them evangelizing them

05:51

I even have a page on my my Facebook. That's the Church of Christ exiles

05:56

So by God's grace over these past couple years I've had so many people worldwide reach out to me email me and they're needing

06:03

Community because God is saving them by his sovereign grace out of this legalistic sect of that has a distorted

06:11

Legalistic gospel, right? And so that's one of the huge emphasis of my ministry is

06:16

Really helping people be equipped to be able to engage with the Church Christ Good good

06:22

Yeah, so so you would because I know you may have seen there are other Reformed apologists on on this website here.

06:28

Like you remind me of a vocab Malone. He has his own little yes Every I've noticed every apologist has either one religion they engage mainly or multiple religions

06:39

You have like the James White engaging Mormonism in Islam vocab is black

06:44

Hebrew Israelites you have Bodhi Baca mainly tearing down secularism and so forth, but your main thing would be like the

06:53

Church of Christ Or is that just like an a section of what you do in here? Yeah, so right now it is a major emphasis and just like dr.

07:01

White when he started alpha and omega ministries many years ago His focus was on Mormons and then over time.

07:07

I think God just opened doors to expand that apologetics ministry So definitely the first year my ministry was heavily

07:14

Church Christ doing public debates I'm a part of a university town ASU, Arkansas State Okay And so I debated a

07:21

Church Christ preacher in front of an audience of 200 and they had to listen to this Baptist Explained the context of acts 238 first Peter 321 and all the text.

07:30

So it was great And that's the major video like when people go check out my channel That's the first video that they'll see and so that was a huge was was the topic on like justification or what was it on?

07:40

specifically was it generation or Yeah. Yeah, let me read you this very wordy proposition because I tried to get the gentleman to Simplify it down and he would not debate me if I did not say it exactly how he wanted because I essentially wanted it to Be this water baptism safe.

07:59

Now, that's a little ambiguous. What do we mean by save right? I'd be pushing for justification like you said, right?

08:05

Right. So he said that we have to do this proposition. I'm like great It's not gonna matter at the end the day but the proposition we argued he argued as the

08:14

Affirmative the New Testament teaches that the Liberty from the penalty of past sins is at the point of an external act of obedience

08:24

In that wild that's so I mean it's good to be nuanced when you're when you're doing debates But that that even the thesis topic was too nuanced that you have to define so many terms in that one thesis

08:36

My big encouragement to a lot of men in the ministry just said Jeremiah you be crystal clear and let him confuse everybody

08:42

That's I got it The first year so really the apologetics ministry birthed out of that debate

08:50

That was my I think fourth debate in total at the time. That was number four I've done I've done ten or so now and to have been in person.

08:59

So that's been a lot of fun First year though was mainly Church Christ I still do a lot of content dealing with the

09:05

Church Christ objections and proof text and I have a segment on my channel called conversations with Church of Christ exiles and so they're testimonials of how they've got to save them out of the

09:16

Church Christ and Many of them are starting to understand the doctrines of grace and are just right, you know falling in love with the biblical

09:24

Jesus Which is incredible Well, I tell you there's another group that in this last eight months or so that I've been engaging with heavily and you're probably like what

09:34

Have you ever heard of full preterism? I okay. So yes Um, I thought

09:39

I'm what I've heard about full preterism Is that full preterism is the view that essentially all in time or eschatological views?

09:46

Those are essentially irrelevant Everything has been fulfilled from like Matthew 24 or Daniel 9 and that's like extrapolated to saying

09:53

Christianity is pretty much ended Because right. Yeah, it's bit and that's why I think it's really dangerous because you're saying the end times won't happen

10:03

Right what the church has believed for 2 ,000 years about our blessed hope and the end times they got it all wrong it is not a

10:10

Blessed hope it's a realized hope that happened back in 78 70 AD 70 AD Flavius Josephus destruction the temple 70

10:17

AD That's why like, you know, yeah Summation Okay, oh that Those are those are two groups that I've engaged with apologetically a lot kind of recently

10:30

But I do tell people it's not just a negative apologetics ministry. Like I'm contending for Justification by faith alone.

10:38

I am contending for Reformed theology in it very, you know charitable respectable Circles and so when people go look up the debates that I've done

10:47

I have branched out from talking about baptism and Eschatology, so it's been a while.

10:52

Has that ever branched out into talking like to Roman Catholics or to Eastern Orthodox is on Forensic justification by faith alone or so forth or you ever had any debates like that before?

11:04

yeah, my second debate was with a Eastern Orthodox on Sola Fide.

11:10

So people can go look up that's my second debate third debate was with the Roman Catholic and the propositional question was was

11:17

Mary sinless and so And I love that study. I read a book.

11:23

Dr. White wrote and it was funny if you go look this up Wesley So I gave a pretty stinger

11:30

And my most humble unbiased opinion a stinger of an opening statement, you know I was making some very pointed arguments and it rattled a lot of Roman Catholics.

11:39

And so they all went running to William Albrecht And I woke

11:47

William Albrecht out of his slumber and Emergency Saturday evening live stream to rush

11:56

Apologetic. Oh, this is before the apologetics ministry birth, but he is not a fan of Jeremiah Nortier And if you go if you look in the archives, he did a our last name just roasting me to know

12:10

Horn a Trent horn just rebutting you for an hour, but no, I was right that didn't happen, but that's good. That's good

12:15

No, that's ironic. I'm sorry to cut you off with that. I made a video Roughly two weeks ago on the exact same topic.

12:22

You just mentioned it was like a 46 Matt. I went through Romans 3 I went through Colossians 1 and this is my argument against it's in the sense of Mary and my my video was titled

12:31

Why these sinlessness of Mary would undercut the deity of Christ and this is how mm -hmm So if you're decently good at Greek You'll see when you read

12:38

Romans 3 the Greek word Panta shows up multiple times which describes all or everything of something

12:44

And we go back to like Colossians 1 you'll see the Greek word Panta show up again in Colossians 1 16.

12:52

What does Christ create? Anta all and then when you go back to John 1

12:57

You read John 1 3 and I'm just seeing this remember your Panta de Otto which means all by him so in the the

13:05

Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox will say Well all doesn't mean all in Romans 3 because not all have fallen short because that means

13:12

Mary's fallen short Then I'm like, okay But you're saying Jesus isn't God because if all doesn't mean all there if it's the exact same

13:19

Greek term Panta if you apply that to John 1 in Colossians 1 you're saying Jesus Possibly I'm putting it in quotations

13:27

Possibly didn't create all things So if all if we're playing the exact same standard from that scripture if she's the exact same

13:33

Hermeneutical method to that same scripture over there as well. Hmm. No, that would be my undercutting art.

13:40

I Think that's really good I'll give you two points that I remember studying and one was the main

13:45

Main argument that I gave actually works really well with what you said And I'll tell you kind of a minor argument that I made that actually caused a storm over in the

13:54

Roman Catholic world Oh good so my big argument that was never rebutted never really even talked about and when

14:00

I asked when I Was in cross -examination with the Roman Catholic I was debating He can just looked at me like a beard and headlights, but I said

14:08

Romans 514 so kind of piggybacking off of hey, it's already clear that there's none righteous none after God, right?

14:17

No, not one And then it Romans also brings up, you know Under the law

14:23

Jew Gentile All are under sin right going with the Romans 323 and so in Romans 5 we understand there's federal

14:31

Headship, right? Yeah, and so in verse 14, this is kind of how I began one of my major arguments yet Death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of The one who was to come so, you know, we see the definite article the

14:51

Talking about Christ though. The only one who does not Suffer under the the federal headship of Adam.

14:59

I mean, so since there's a particularity here Mary would not escape the federal headship and therefore the original sin born under Adam That was so that was good just because there's it's so particular it's the one and only talking about Jesus Christ He is the only one, you know, we're we're sin and death did not reign and touch him

15:22

So that was my big point. You want to hear the the argument that caused the the circus storm? I'd love to so I meant

15:30

I went back to Mary's Magnificat back in Luke chapter 1 and so, you know, they're ready for the

15:38

The Reformed Protestant to say hey, look how Mary is beginning her Magnificat my soul magnifies the

15:45

Lord and my spirit rejoices in Savior. Yeah now they're ready for them, right?

15:50

And so I said, that's true. She's a savior in the context of Exalting God right herself.

15:58

She says my soul magnifies the Lord There's so many Psalms that you know sinners that are saved by grace are praying in the same manner

16:05

I say if you look at verse Let's see here verse 48 or he for God My Savior has looked upon the humble estate of his servant

16:15

And I just said look this word humble this this word humble estates one word in the

16:20

Greek is not a mere humility This is talking about moral guilt and I tried to demonstrate when you look in the

16:26

Greek Septuagint King David I think it's in Psalm 25 He is Magnifying the

16:31

Lord from his soul starting out the same way as Mary and he's confessing his sin

16:36

Yeah, saying that God has looked on his moralist for a state Or his humble estate meaning his moral guilt and he's confessing his sins and God ultimately is showing him favor

16:47

I'm just saying look Mary is saved by grace through faith. Just like all believers.

16:52

Yeah I like I like how you covered both bases because if you were to talk to the See us Augustinians would would also reaffirm with the

16:59

Roman Catholics that were born under original sin If you're not you're not God essentially like the incarnate Christ But the

17:04

Eastern Orthodox would take you up on the other objection to say well, we don't believe in original sin we believe in more of like the The ability as babies not to sin until like an age of accountability sort of a thing

17:14

And so I like how you covered both bases from Scripture and from the anthropology of the original church fathers

17:20

That was pretty neat All right, cool neat neat, all right So I do have a little bit of a structure.

17:27

Usually my videos are very I got my structure from James White in my videos I just improv and sort of just ramble.

17:33

Yeah, you can probably see that from the camera angle. I copied them You're good. Yeah, you can see

17:39

Okay, so I have a few questions here. I organized it a little bit this time What already you already answered that question pretty much why you got you in the ministry?

17:47

I think you pretty much already answered that question Um, what is what is the purpose of your channel and ministry overall?

17:54

Yeah, so when you click on my youtube channel, it just says hey My name is Jeremy Nortier and my desire is to glorify

18:00

God through apologetics And so I'm a pastor at heart and my content firstly is geared towards the members of twelve five church those whom the

18:08

Lord has Entrusted me to kick take care of their souls. And so I always have them in mind first.

18:14

They hold me accountable I'm not a rogue apologist. In fact if people were doing apologetics and they're not members of a healthy

18:22

Church, then you're doing it wrong. You're doing it in a way. That's not according to God's revealed will and so That's that's kind of who

18:31

I am is apologetics essentially is just sharing truth defending it guarding it giving a reason for it and You know,

18:40

I'm kind of like you I've really benefited from Dr. James White's just his whole ministry for the past 40 years

18:47

And I will say people say like who is the most influential in my life and I kind of give them three People and I can do it kind of fast.

18:54

Go for it. Dr. John MacArthur. Yeah, I'm no longer a dispensational Yeah, but yeah,

19:00

I still have like I I don't say that Reluctantly or condescendingly like I'm just not dispensational my framework

19:07

Even though that's orthodox and affirms, you know The essentials of the Christian faith right and I always consult the old

19:14

Johnny Mac commentary when I'm doing my study so Johnny Mac taught me a love for the

19:20

Word of God right number one then Got R .C. Sproul his commentary essentially on the

19:26

Westminster Confession of Faith. I'm not Presbyterian. Yeah, I know Already have big disagreements with R .C.

19:34

He was he passed away as a post -millennialist and so I'm not I don't share that same Ethnological conviction and I tell you what, that's okay, too

19:42

We can have differing eschatologies right and so R .C. Taught me a love for church history Yeah, and just a passion for the sovereignty of God.

19:50

And so that's been very Integral and just me coming into ministry and doing apologetics and the number three is dr

19:57

White kind of took the best from both worlds in apologetics, right? And so as you have mentioned, you know me getting to interview him

20:06

He's actually came and spoke at 12 -5 church on two different occasions now And so I got to share a stage with him and Wow kind of talk openly in front of a crowd at our church

20:15

And you know, I was fangirling and I was trying not to you know, be nervous up there But we had a great time and so I just those three men have been just very influential

20:24

God has used them mightily in my life. Okay, awesome. Awesome. All right, cool moving on Um, what is your favorite guests that you've had on your show so far?

20:35

Oh That's tough that's like asking a parent to say what's their favorite kid

20:43

All the guests have been great for the unique things that I've asked them on I'll answer it this way

20:49

Having dr. White on just incredible. In fact, you know, I got to interview him on his debate tour

20:55

Review we reviewed all five debates and we got to talk about the flower patch kids. That was oh boy that might be my favorite interview just because who it is, but like I said

21:05

I could tell stories about all the people that I've been able to connect with through ministry and and so forth

21:11

Okay So and now I don't think my audience has really got that cleared up or I mean

21:17

I have what my audience has um, do you have a certain denomination or denominational household you espouse to or Great question and maybe there's some confusion for like the whole meaning of purpose for a denomination

21:30

Like I just tell people look Theological triage meaning you got first or gospel issues and you have secondary important issues

21:38

But not gospel so you can have fellowship in line of the gospel of grace And then you have tertiary issues that even come further down the line like right eschatology important but not so preeminent to you know, not

21:51

Sever fellowship over or right things like that. So I'm reformed

21:57

Baptist and 12 -5 church, we're very Expositional in our preaching so we we tell people you got to be able to develop context in order to draw truth out

22:09

From the text itself and the only way to do that is kind of begin At the beginning and go all the way through but having in mind the whole counsel of God And so that's why

22:20

I'm Reformed Baptist because I just see that being consistent with the whole scope of the scripture but like I said

22:30

That's just where I've landed and like John MacArthur would be dispensational and not, you know

22:35

Covenantal and his understanding of how God relates to his people and that's okay like I just want people to know

22:41

I hold that distinction that I have with a very Ecumenical fist meaning if we can rally together on the right

22:49

Jesus and how he told us to have our sins forgiven Which is by faith apart from works, man There is some level of unity that we can have and we can do ministry together

22:57

Well speaking of of your exposition of James 2. I watched that video like three times. I Loved it.

23:04

I I came from before I became reformed. I because I was remember that the trail I came through was Atheist to independent fundamentalist

23:12

Baptist new independent fundamentalist Baptist then to independent and reformed So I James 2 is a huge part of my studies on on On being justified before men and being justified before God and I think you nailed that on the head numerous times

23:27

And getting over to like James 2 17 and then I actually love expounding upon James 2 10 which explicitly expounds upon the difference between Being justified before man and being justified before God because James 2 10 is

23:39

For whosoever tries to be justified by the law will be condemned in spite of that And so I love how you kept on emphasizing that verse as well.

23:47

I'm in there. That was wonderful. I keep watching. Well, see I Don't want to brag. I don't like to be braggadocious

23:53

But I think us Baptists tend to be very very scriptural before fathers. You know what I'm saying?

23:58

We were like scripture first then fathers I think there's some denominations who tend to run straight to like Augustine or straight to Irenaeus Like let's let's just look at this first and then glean off of that, you know clean from the

24:09

Church Fathers before we can learn But um neat, okay good. Um, I had something in that real quick Because I think

24:15

I think you're right, especially the reformed crowd like me There's a really good balance because there's a spectrum of Baptist out there

24:22

You got this the crazy Steven Anderson's that are I understand. Yeah but then you have

24:27

Southern Baptist who I love dearly right, but very Evangelical in the sense of hey, let's just talk gospel and let's talk

24:35

John 3 16, but you know doctrine Let's just not get into that. That was my experience And so if somebody in your audience or mine says hey, we're

24:43

Southern Baptist and we're very much, you know Intentional with understanding context. I'm saying hey, praise

24:48

God. We have other sister churches. We partner with that are SBC So I'm over here saying praise

24:53

God but reformed carries this idea of sola Scriptura and so I think this puts church history in its proper place

25:02

We don't say history is a hermeneutic almost like how the Roman Catholic Church have a three -tiered

25:09

Authority, you know with tradition both and the magisterium or scripture and magisterium

25:14

You know, we're saying that the scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith

25:20

And so everything has to be tested by the the the ultimate precipient there But we do acknowledge other authorities that Christ has been building his church for 2 ,000 years

25:29

Therefore history is so important. A lot of these theological issues have been worked out

25:35

There's really nothing new under the Sun But we're to be noble Bereans always testing church history to the scripture itself

25:43

And so I'm just saying I've been so impressed with especially the Reformed Baptist world of saying oh man, we are we are scripture first, but we are trusting and Verifying when it comes to history and kind of the the the strong unity we've seen throughout church

25:59

And I was gonna say kind of when it comes back to the Church of Christ. It's the extreme opposite It's kind of this my

26:05

Bible and me under a tree. No creed. Yes. So those good Torah. Yeah Yeah, that's a hundred percent, right?

26:11

Well, we're saying there's a rich history for the past 2 ,000 years and what I figured out Wesley is what's cloaked in them not want to talk about church history is their own history with going back to the early 1800s

26:22

Alexander Campbell, it was it was always the 1800s where you get the the cults, you know, Joe's Witnesses Mormons Yeah, all that stuff.

26:30

Have you ever heard of the the cultish podcast? I oh, I'm dude I've been obsessed with the

26:35

Paul Gia for years. So yeah. Yeah. Oh good Have you seen their interview with me and Trey Fisher you were on there?

26:42

I did not know I thought saying we didn't talk about earlier. I was like, you know, he might not have my device that I've seen them with Michael Jones expiring philosophy has been on there before a couple and Stephen Bancar is the new -age guy, but Yeah, I loved his interview because when they interviewed bank cars

26:57

I went and bought his book immediately to read it and I disagree with with him a little bit but amazing

27:04

Testimony, you know, I mean right but so I was on cultish last year and we were re -examining the

27:10

Church of Christ as a cult Oh, that's right You recognize the beard now, yeah

27:18

Apology has a beard. I mean Yeah, yeah, we all do but Anyways, so who's on the who was on the show with you then?

27:27

Was it was it just you? No, it was me and my buddy the fishbone Trey Fisher And so he they interviewed him first,

27:35

I guess two years ago And so he actually was in the Church Christ for 18 years So lived it breathed it bought the t -shirt, but God saved him out of it

27:43

Right and say is a smart individual and so when I was getting ready for my debate That was that a issue.

27:50

Oh, I don't remember how we we interacted on a Facebook page Reform presuppositional ism something like that and I was basically saying hey,

27:59

I'm getting ready for debate Y 'all pray for me and he was like, hey, bud. Call me up and so when we connected friends for life, and so the more we got so he he actually co -hosts a lot of my

28:10

Interviews with me when we interview Church Christ exiles, right? And so anyway, he's an awesome friend But anyway, he's the one he knows

28:17

Jeff Durbin and all them really well Luke Pearson And so he was like, hey, we're gonna do another cultist with with Jerry and Andrew He's like you definitely gotta come with me.

28:26

I was like, I'm there Awesome awesome. I did not know that I feel so terrible forgive me for for not knowing

28:35

Yeah, okay. Cool. Well, you already answered I guess one of the questions I had which which was a favorite argument for soul script

28:40

Or but I mean you kind of got into that a little bit. Oh That's on that again real quick. It's your girlfriend.

28:46

So I debated two Roman Catholics me and my friend Merrick Kaiser We see here.

28:55

So he's he's a good Protestant friend of mine reformed And so we debated is a two -on -two debate on Marlins channel the gospel truth

29:02

Peter D. Williams were on that channel Oh, I have I have some of them. I have more debates than people

29:10

I've probably some of the most debates on there So I was Marlins first we flew Marlin from California down to host my debate live and in person

29:18

Oh, so I was his first live debate Yeah So I I debated on solar scriptura a while back and it was towards the very beginning of my apologetic

29:27

The apologetic dog ministry. So me my friend Merrick Kaiser. I think

29:33

I remember his last name Yeah, we debated Peter D Williams who debated dr. I'd about a decade ago on solar scriptura and Joe Heschmeyer and so this was an incredible debate on solar scriptura

29:45

And I just wanted to share this with you quickly since you had a question about sauce Sure, my buddy Merrick was just like Jeremiah.

29:50

I don't want us to come out with the same old same old arguments They're ready for us to talk about second Peter 3 16 17.

29:57

They're just they're just ready. And so I said, yeah, I actually I may do a book plug

30:05

Is gonna be is gonna be scriptural owned by James White no, oh boy, nope Anyway, I got around here somewhere.

30:12

Sure. Yeah, but I told my buddy I was like, yeah I want to come at solar scriptura from a different angle.

30:17

I said I want to make a Transcendental argument for solar scriptura now has to be consistent.

30:24

I want to develop that thought I just said and he said he was like Jeremiah. I trust you Yes, I knew something has to be embedded in solar scriptura that's unique to the truth

30:35

And so I just want to encourage our audience. I have a I have a video that I pulled out of my Closing statement or something, but it's the transcendental argument for solar scriptura

30:45

But what I really tried to paint the picture is John 17 17 when Jesus says your word is truth

30:52

Yeah, I do think that's talking about the revealed will of God that that isn't scripturated because earlier in John chapter 17

31:01

You kind of have those indications that it's the written word early in John the scriptures cannot be broken and so forth

31:07

And so yeah, I talked to my Greek Orthodox friends. They're like that's talking about Jesus I'm like you have to develop that and even if it was the the

31:14

God revealing or God's revelation Is the precipient of truth so that necessarily entails that which is in scripture it also anyway

31:23

I was just saying that's a necessary foundation for truth. And so what's unique to the

31:29

Protestant position is its perspicuity the clearness of Scripture to from God to the

31:36

Imago Dei and so that's unique to the Protestants and not the Roman Catholics that say hey

31:42

You need our majesty. You need our Pope. You need our church to tell you infallibly the interpretation of X amount of scriptures

31:50

Anyway, I got to do that debate in the book. I was gonna plug is it's called that's funny This book book actually broke my eschatology in the process.

31:58

So that's but it's called the canon of scripture a presuppositional study by I Think I got all the right.

32:11

Yeah. Anyway, that was an incredible book It just really made me think wow

32:16

You can go deeper and so the scripture and you know how the Roman Catholics say well Scripture show me a

32:22

Bible verse this show me scripture that says scripture alone. It's self -defeating They're like it has to give us a golden index essentially and this book points out

32:31

The Old Testament predicted when God would speak and when God would not and and basically you're just saying there's your golden index

32:38

Anyway, mmm, I mean, that was good. Okay I guess

32:44

I'd like to give an idea here because you you may often you may have heard during that debate I guess maybe several debates because I've done a lot of informal voice chat debates with Roman Catholics and stuff on on Old Scripture and a point

32:57

I usually get brought up to me is usually the the classical 2nd Thessalonians 2 15

33:03

You know hold fast all that to word -of -mouth and all that is written and they'll take the word -of -mouth part to be the you know the quote -unquote oral tradition of the

33:11

Apostles and so forth and that being like the succession of the Apostles whatever And what you can do

33:17

I think is a reputation is to give the context of the first time that Paul had actually visited Thessalonica he's referring to the first letter.

33:24

He had written to them when he visited it And when he was talking about the word -of -mouth, it's the gospel he preached to them while he was there at Thessalonica That's that's a point.

33:32

I've usually brought up whenever I've debated them as well in reference to like in Thessalonians like 2 15 I think that's been one of my strongest arguments

33:41

That's a super strong argument and I would just say because I do talk to Roman Catholics about this I'm just like just read the verse before it says to this he called you through our gospel

33:52

And you know it ties into them brothers to stand firm and hold fast to the traditions That which is handed down to be received.

33:59

That's just all traditions means here that you were taught by us. Oh, yeah the gospel That's what Paul's talking about either by our spoken word our preaching or our letters

34:09

And so when you go back to is at 17 Where you have those hostile?

34:16

Jews from Thessalonica They were they were not happy with what Paul was preaching to them in the synagogues, right contending that that Jesus I was prophesied to resurrect from the dead and I just tell him that's the context here and watch how he interacts with those at Berea the the more noble Jews that tested the apostles teaching

34:36

Yeah, and if you could trust anybody it would be Paul right as an apostle and yet Every daily they were going back to the scriptures

34:44

No doubt to you know, Psalm 16 Isaiah 53 in places and saying yep This man is teaching us the

34:50

Word of God And so I'm just over here saying there their verse here that just says The traditions that was spoken or by letter and they're just saying oh, you're just saying by letter

35:00

I'm like this is talking about the preaching of the gospel that goes hand in hand with the revealed scriptures

35:06

Yeah, including including the previous letters even from that point of that being, you know, that's not like that that's money

35:11

That's what before that like yeah, well before that's alone is you had Ephesians Galatians and so forth

35:17

Or even Romans as well So you could even say he's referring to those as well But I guess we're moving on here because we have a lot of questions to get through.

35:25

Um, this is great so far I got a brag on this book because I can say that broke my eschatology Here's here's what it looks like.

35:33

Mm -hmm Excellent, I just I recommend everyone Buying this it's very inexpensive.

35:40

And like I said, it kind of gives you a transcendental What what is necessary for the human experience and and how can we approach the

35:49

Word of God? Well, it's by his revealed word. And so this relates to the canon of Scripture How do we know what books belong in the canon and then the subtitle a presuppositional study?

36:01

And so it's not fallacious to appeal to the very thing that we're

36:06

Defending if it's ultimate and the Word of God is eternal Between father son and spirit he gets into it.

36:14

I just can't recommend that book enough. Okay, awesome Some more questions for you.

36:19

Um being that me and you are both reformed Me formally have you always been reformed or did you become reformed at some point?

36:25

I became reformed I grew up Southern Baptist at a church. That was anti -calvinist

36:31

And I was that Inquisitive youth that was reading

36:40

Romans 8 and 9 saying I don't understand help me and I got told they don't like the

36:46

Calvinistic Implications of my questions. I'm like, what's a Calvinist? Like I just had no idea

36:53

Asking about yeah, you know verses in Romans Mm -hmm and so that that's my background and like I always tell people still love the

37:00

SBC and you don't have to be a Calvinist to Be saved, but we're trying to grapple with the same

37:06

Truths that you know, our minions or provisionist are trying to grapple with through saying God is sovereign and man is responsible

37:12

But how does that harmonize together? So I want people to be more kind -hearted in those discussions

37:19

I think there needs to be a look because I still see a lot of provisionist in our minions brothers and sisters in Christ And I think there needs to be a little bit less than that than was online the whole situation

37:29

You take me tell you what point convinced me kind of out of the the Southern Baptist traditional provisionist mindset

37:37

Was I was told one saved always saved one saved always saved so I knew that above all yeah

37:43

But what I couldn't wrap my mind around is okay if I had this libertarian free will Yeah Then do

37:51

I lose that and I can't walk away and When I was studying Romans and I started studying this word predestination

37:59

I remember the Eureka moment of oh I can rest eternally secure not in my decision or anything that I've done

38:05

But this is something that has the work of God before the foundation of the world, right?

38:10

It involves the Father the Son and the Spirit and I thought that's why I can't lose my salvation because of the work that they

38:18

Accomplished. Yeah, it's it's his tetelestai. It is finished. He finished the work That's actually exactly why

38:24

I became reformed I haven't announced this on my channel yet before cuz never got into him But when I I thought about something that James Wyatt said and he was talking about something

38:32

Michael Brown the Armenian He said I love Michael Brown as well. Oh, yeah He had said if you obviously he can't lose any of his sheep in John 10

38:41

He loses none of the sheep in John 6 as well In in those systems even including provisionism or even if you want to Include which

38:49

I think eternal security is biblical but when you when you turn into a system of libertarian freedom of the will apart from God's sovereignty and You can kind of just unsheathe yourself and be lost from the

38:59

Son who promised that he can't lose any of his sheep And so it's counteractive to the scripture of the promises of God fulfilling as his promises to Abraham and the number of almost like the

39:09

Infinitesimal number of the the believers that God would come to bring into his kingdom by the problem

39:15

Abraham Genesis 12 and If that was one of the biggest things that made me perform so fast

39:21

Yeah, the concepts that are hard to reconcile with the libertarian free will and Losing your salvation in my opinion, right is being born again

39:31

So you're telling me if I can walk away I can be unborn again, right? The teaching model that Jesus is giving and and the whole idea of justification

39:40

This is a legal one -time act where the just judge of all the earth says innocent

39:45

No longer guilty, right? And so the point is oh so if I can lose my salvation

39:51

I guess God is overturning what he declared and so I tell people to lose your justification is to really make

39:58

God a liar because he declared that and You know who the Sun sets free is free indeed

40:04

That's why This is gonna sound pretty controversial to my to my Roman Catholic audience But I I found the

40:10

Eucharist to be very it spits on the cross Because the tetelestai for them is not really tetelestai.

40:16

It's you having to represent in in the Eucharist You have to represent Jesus second Jesus sacrifice over and over and over again.

40:24

That work is never finished, but it's not a bloody It's not even a bloody sacrifice. It's not even like Levitical sacrifice.

40:29

It's just it's just a bread and wine Being fair to their position not just calling it bread and crackers, but anyway

40:36

Roasting us bad this a little bit. No, but seriously Yeah, we we should take the cross of Christ very seriously.

40:43

The redemptive plan of God is not something to be taken lightly But I guess we will move on. I think

40:49

I did ask you that question favorite argument used for reforms interior ology Let me think here

40:56

I Guess so what's distinct about reformed? So teary ology is regeneration precedes faith

41:06

And so I firstly would kind of point out in John chapter 3 that there's an inability of man

41:12

That he came and see the kingdom of God unless he's born again And the whole point of being born again is being born from above And so when you go back to John chapter 1 verses 12 and 13

41:24

Verse 12 tells us, you know, you got people that are receiving Jesus Basically by faith or by believing in his name and be giving they're given a right to be a child of God in verse 13

41:36

Tells you why they receive Jesus by faith and it's because it's not of their own human will

41:43

Or the the will of man, but it's the will of God It's it's something that God is doing and so it echoes the promise of the new covenant

41:51

This brings out my reformed baptist in me but ezekiel 36 the promise of the new covenant is that God says

41:58

I Will take out that heart of stone. I will give you a heart of flesh I will cleanse you with my spirit and cause you to walk in my statues

42:07

And so the holy spirit is very hands -on in dwelling the saints in terms of the new covenant Which is the only covenant that saves by the way and so God God has to be sovereign to do that.

42:19

And so this is an act of God God says I will and it's not working against your will he's working through your will and that's where a lot of Revisionists flower patch kids, you know, they flower patch kids.

42:30

There you go They're being dragged against their will and i'm like he works through their will And so the other place that I would go to the other argument slash scripture is the golden chain of redemption.

42:41

Yep Romans day 28. Yeah, yeah keep on absolutely 28 through 30

42:46

And then when you keep going through 39, you just realize there's nothing in all of creation and I even say

42:52

You're a creation right to people that believe you can walk away I'm, like he's saying nothing exhausting all creation that would conclude you to possibly separate you salvificly

43:02

From the redemptive love of jesus christ. See this. Yeah, go go go.

43:07

Good Well, I understand the entire I mean And I and I skipped over the trinitarian harmony of who can bring a charge against god's elect

43:17

Because if you follow the pronouns he says christ died For you talking about the elect talking about those of us that are in christ jesus by faith apart from works

43:27

Yeah, he died a substitutionary death for you So when I get set where does it say jesus died for the elect i'm like, oh john 8 like we we can go there

43:34

And more than that argument from the lesser to the greater he was raised for us paul says believers

43:41

And then christ continues to intercede on our behalf as a perfect high priest. I can keep going

43:47

Wesley, but keep me from oh, oh, I that's a very good argument from like romans 8 Well ending of romans 8 to the beginning and middle of romans 9 and even to the end of romans 9 you could argue

43:56

We didn't get into romans 9 yet Obviously, obviously. Yeah romans 9 is farther on in discussion, obviously, but romans 9 clearly lays out lays out

44:04

The elect but so forth. Um I'd have to say one of my favorite moments is obviously just the basic ephesians, too

44:10

Um, you know you were dead in your sins and but despite of you being dead and since paul actually emphasizes

44:16

Despite you being dead inside dead in sin because god is rich in mercy, but god

44:23

But god you were dead in sin, but god who is rich in mercy made you alive in christ.

44:28

Jesus Emphasizing christ jesus making you alive That's been one of my favorite arguments um

44:35

Okay, let's get on to some more questions. Um, okay. Are there any other denominations you admire and why oh

44:43

Yes, I really admire the presbyterians. We differ on You know how the coven of works relates to The coven of grace.

44:51

I love my presby bros, though um Read a lot of puritans Read some anglicans.

44:57

So i'm kind of wishy -washy when it comes to anglicans. It's because they're a mixed bag. They're kind of a reformed

45:03

Uh roman catholic but not all anger anglicans are cut the same way So i'm just saying that there is some respect

45:10

Um there from some of the anglican tradition Um, so those are the two that pop out at me the the most but then

45:19

There there are authors. I will say that can kind of come out of many different um denominations that affirm the right gospel, but I think

45:28

I think I would say apart from reformed baptists The presbyterians would kind of be a close number two.

45:34

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah I take a top three is definitely obviously i'm a reformed baptist

45:39

So I feel the same way but I have to say lutherans are number two and presbys are third lutherans are okay

45:45

Yeah, lutherans are I'm glad you mentioned lutherans because i've also done two debates with a lutheran

45:52

Definitely has to be baptismal regeneration Wait the first debate because that's what the guy Sought me out for was baptismal regeneration, right?

46:00

And so he he challenged me in terms of you know Who am I going to anathematize and who am

46:05

I who am I going to welcome his brothers? Oh boy And so to your delight I I welcome lutherans in the fold

46:12

But I think they're trying to harmonize two concepts. Yeah. Yeah can't be harmonized Via the baptism, you know

46:20

Yeah, and they're they're not real strong if you press them enough they say it's necessary but not absolutely necessary So that's been a fun conversation.

46:28

But this is the thing that I like about the lutherans is they champion? Sola fide justification by faith alone

46:34

But then they also try to hold to baptismal regeneration And i'm saying those those two don't work together.

46:41

Yeah, that's yeah, you know It's the lutherans that I actually see reflecting a lot of the early church fathers

46:48

And so that's where I have a lot of grace to the early church fathers. Um, right What dr.

46:54

White has said over the years is let the early church be the early church. Yeah Yeah, and and just hold them to scripture like we would you know someone living today or anyone throughout church history.

47:05

They're not Infallible so we would expect for them to develop in their theology or disagree with one another or even disagree with themselves

47:13

So anyway, I have I'll i'll give you the lutherans too. I I do have respect for martin luther himself kind of the early martin luther

47:20

Not so much the anti -semitic martin luther later on. Yeah, right um, yeah, absolutely you you were you thinking of like jan hus or wickliffe or Oh, absolutely.

47:30

Yeah, good. Good. Good. Yeah, I want to I want to encourage people Uh, steve lawson has written a series and there's a few other authors in this but a long line of godly men he covers jan hus

47:43

And uh many of the reformers and proto reformers and it's just an excellent series that I find myself just kind of rereading through Oh, nice.

47:51

Nice. Nice. Okay, cool. Cool. Um, let me move on to my next question Oh, so growing up you said you were you grew up like southern baptist or like armenian -ish southern baptist or provisionist

48:04

Southern baptist you could put it Um your was your family generally religious in a sense or were they were they just sort of like be religious if you want to Or how'd that go?

48:13

Great question. My this is something i'm very thankful to the lord for as I always grew up in a christian home um

48:19

And so ever since I can my earliest memory is always learning about king jesus and going to church

48:26

And it wasn't until I was 14 until um, god saved me by his grace and opened up my heart to the truths of the gospel and Um, so it wasn't until I was 14, but I always grew up in a christian home.

48:38

Fuck you Oh, yeah, I I did too relatively I grew up in a very charismatic pentecostal assemblies of god house disbey house um, and then

48:47

I became an atheist and then And when I was I think it was 2019 Uh, uh had the craziest experiences of the paranormal now

48:57

We we baptist we're not very into the paranormal I got into new age after being an atheist and started investigating.

49:02

I had some crazy demonic encounters and then here I am No, thanks. Yeah, it worked it worked out really good for those who love the lord, you know that that's yeah

49:11

It was terrifying but it it worked but um, all right Um that that reminds me of the the itinerant juice

49:19

And is it either in acts 18 or 19 or right around in there? But essentially they were casting out a demon that was not happy And it spooked not only the the people but the whole town of ephesus and they all basically repented

49:33

I think that's x19. That's right. That's right Um, okay. Yeah, that that is glaringly similar.

49:40

Um, let me go back to Oh, um what well you more or less answered this question, but the question here is what is the

49:50

The your favorite subject that you've been studying recently Apart from like frederism.

49:56

You're gonna have to leave that aside. We can't mention That's hilarious Um That is a good question because I study so many different things because I teach at church and then

50:09

I do different apologetic things and the flip side to preterism is Actually studying my own eschatology in the mix because I tell people

50:19

You know people ask me do you not get tired of you know, talking with the church of christ i'm like yes

50:25

But they're my nineveh. So i'm like i'm called to this but I get to I get to herald the gospel of grace

50:31

You know justification by faith alone also the glory of god alone So that that fuels up my tank, even though i'm having to constantly combat, you know opposition and so what's what's interesting with combating hyper preterism

50:46

I've been also I know you didn't you told me not to do this, but i'm just saying i've also been enjoying the world of eschatology you know and getting to see how

50:56

Man, we have such a blessed Hope and what jesus already inaugurated at his first coming

51:04

But we await this consummated eternal age. That's still not yet.

51:10

It's already not yet So anyway, i'm just saying i've always been you know, a student of eschatology

51:15

I've been enjoying that. Um I study a lot of presuppositional apologetics with cornelius fantilla.

51:22

I follow eli yala's ministry on youtube We're good friends now. Is he still with apologia?

51:28

Well, he's been doing some teaching sessions with them, but eli Runs his own youtube channel and he does not live in arizona, right?

51:36

we talk all the time and I was gonna say what? Topics i'm actually debating.

51:42

Um, april 5th against the church of christ preacher. Mike. I saw from um, texas

51:47

And so he's coming down to 12 -5 church here in jonesborough, arkansas And we're debating live and in person just in a couple weeks.

51:55

Oh, I wish I could go man Oh, that would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it'll be live streamed at my youtube channel.

52:01

Oh will be okay I will be watching maybe i'll do a debate review That would be cool

52:06

I would I would love to do that. So i've been studying um, mike hysaul's arguments the proof text for Baptismal regeneration some church christ don't like that terminology

52:18

Because they're not they don't like how Greek orthodox or roman catholics or even lutherans have used that term

52:24

So church christ, they're new on the scene of church history. So, you know, yeah Anyway, so that's just been a lot of my study lately

52:33

Is i'm kind of getting ready for this debate with church christ on baptismal regeneration This this does lead me to a question.

52:40

I have yet to even ask i've been kind of nervous to ask it But I guess i'll do it Uh, so what what eschatology have you held in the past or eschatology is

52:49

I guess you could say and what eschatology? Do you currently hold? Um Great question.

52:54

Let me preface this once again with I am very charitable To the three orthodox perspectives of eschatology

53:03

Now there are hybrids that fall in between but i'm telling I tell people don't invent anything new under the sun.

53:09

It's already been done Great minds before us gifted by the holy spirit have already tread these paths to help us.

53:17

So that that means I was pre -millennial dispensational for eight years makes sense.

53:23

Johnny mack. Yep. Yeah So I still I understand the pre -mail art like I tell people look

53:29

I get it. And so the fact that I left pre -mailed is not me being condescending.

53:34

It's just where i'm at You know, I mean, yeah, but i'm telling you this book Broke my eschatology studying for sola scriptura actually caused me not to be pre -millennial anymore

53:45

So, I know that's a that's a conundrum that I tell people. Yeah, it's a doozy. It's a whole story Okay, I even called the pastor

53:52

I serve with saying I don't think i'm pre -mill anymore And you know what? He told me he goes. I I knew it would happen Was that something you guys were debating before Well, I go deep into all of it.

54:03

And so, you know, my heart was sold into pre -mill So I don't think my heart was open to be convinced.

54:10

Otherwise though when you're an apologist at heart Yeah, you're just you're looking to you know defend and articulate truth and I think that's a wonderful thing but sometimes

54:18

It can close you off From even being open to changing your mind. That's not always a bad thing, you know to have

54:25

Discernment on things that you should hold with a closed chest And so I just think it's neat how? Studying a totally different topic

54:32

Made me think okay. I might need to rethink daniel nine and so forth some other pathways.

54:38

Yeah, so when I left pre -mill Still love my pre -mill, uh brothers out there and they're still

54:44

Good points within pre -millennialism. I just want to be the first to tell people that But when I left it,

54:49

I thought i'm gonna let advocates of all mill and post mill make their case

54:55

You know what? I mean, right? So those are the three orthodox views. In fact, I have a five part Series on eschatology on the apologetic dog where I give an overview a flower overview of all mill

55:06

Pre -mill and post mill and I give three positive presentations of those Right, and then the fifth one is the death knell to hyper -preterism

55:15

So the whole time I tell people we can disagree on the the nature of the millennial reign and so forth

55:21

But what we cannot disagree on is our future Blessed hope of jesus's future second coming a future

55:30

Resurrection of the dead where the saints receive bodies fit for eternity, right? And that when christ returns he's going to restore all things and that includes right those we hold with a closed fist

55:40

Yeah, so i'm just saying Um, it's been incredible because I thought okay I'm, not pre -mill and i'm just going to kind of give it time to kind of study all mill and post mill

55:50

Now i'm going to tell you why I landed all mill over post mill and it's one of those things where i'm at And i'm always like i'm good friends

55:58

You know with dr. Wyatt and I met jeff darbin and I still love the the post millennial crowd

56:04

Yeah, but I was curious. I wanted to ask the question. How does all mill? Um combat full preterism and how does post mill combat full preterism?

56:15

It's just a question I had um And so number one what's super imperative and so I don't know if you're post mill but what

56:23

I tell my post millennial friends Is you got to be careful of at least one thing that i've noticed is popular and modern

56:31

Post -millennial thought and not necessarily historic post -millennial thought but it's how we understand this age

56:38

In the age to come, you know, you know, are you post mill? I'm gonna be honest with you.

56:44

I i'm i'm between right now at the moment. I'm between all mill and post mill um

56:49

I used to be. Yeah, I used to be I used to be very very pre -mill due to me being an ifb dispensationalist

56:55

Um, I was very pre -mill pre -trib, uh pre -trip rapture pre -wrath all that stuff.

57:01

Um, oh, yeah at the moment I I lean i've i've seen some of jordan b cooper stuff for for all mill

57:06

And i've seen a lot of stuff for doug wilson's post mill and stuff Um, which i'm pretty sure is doug wilson still post mill.

57:12

I don't think he's ever changed that I highly doubt he would Oh, yeah, he did he he started out real similar as me and you pre -millennial dispensational, right?

57:19

Uh, and so i've gotten to talk with doug and that's been fun. Um, so you're in a good place I mean you have a lot of similarities.

57:25

Maybe it's because of our red beards I don't know. Well, you have a better you have a longer i've only grown mine for like three months But oh actually how long how long have you been growing yours out for?

57:34

I'll put it this way. I can't remember when I didn't have a beard so it's been years now It did happen if people look me up on facebook.

57:41

They'll be like jeremiah has a baby face This reason I have a beard no There was a big meme amongst some of my reformed baptist friends

57:48

And they're like wes you can grow a beard so big one day if you just let it grow for a few years and get a John calvin beard where you can just like you can braid it if you wanted to have it down here

57:55

Or a charlie hall with a dual braid I've loved my life about that.

58:01

Yeah That's right. That's right. Oh boy. Oh, yeah, every every good reformer has a good beard.

58:06

Um, that's just a legal fact. Yeah Um, I got to I got to speak at the white calvinism conference with keith bosky and dr

58:14

White that's so um a number of weeks ago and we had a question answer panel. Yeah, and A question was basically like why all the beards like what's the deal and I remember

58:24

I was like I grabbed the mic and I just said let me just tell you this I couldn't I didn't even know

58:29

I could grow a beard until I started reading reformed theology I looked to my left and dr.

58:35

White was rolling laughing I've never seen him laugh before this is a special moment. Oh, that's funny

58:41

No, yeah, he's his beard has gotten a lot. Well, he used to have like a bigger beard But he trimmed it down a little bit. But yeah, that that's funny.

58:47

That's funny. All right All right. Here's my sales pitch to you. Why i'm all milk. Okay, let me hear it so this age age to come now, this isn't just unique to all mill, but it has been in the past few years because All mill has always understood that this age is this temporal evil age.

59:08

That's perishing that The rain's happening at the moment Right, right and the rain is happening now, right?

59:15

It's symbolic and the post mill would agree with that But but here's the distinction i'm about to get into all mill and post mill all mill

59:23

Always has affirmed that this age is this evil perishing age that began with the fall of adam and will continue

59:31

Until christ returned right and that'll be the end of this age. That's perishing that's temporal and has a last day

59:38

Okay now Jesus first coming like you were talking about um inaugurated the age to come

59:46

Right. So this temporal age was interrupted by the eternal age at jesus's first coming

59:52

And so we're living in this already not yet because the the eternal state or the um the age to come is is now

59:59

But it's by the spirit in the church and it's it's heavenly It's also above where where the the king is in his throne is also the kingdom.

01:00:08

That's how jesus prayed in the lord's prayer um, basically His kingdom of heaven his will on on earth

01:00:16

So that's what's really important to maintain is this two -age model that doesn't really see a

01:00:24

A future thousand years that's kind of perishable kind of not has death happening Now i'm over here saying nope when we look at the new testament two age model this age age to come

01:00:33

Now this is what post mill has done in recent times because like I said,

01:00:38

I don't think that this has always been held But this is now my caution to post millennialists Because this point that they understand this age and the age to come differently than how

01:00:48

I just articulate they would say this age Was audience relevance to the first century this age is the the jewish

01:00:57

Mosaic age that ends in 70 a .d Okay, and then the age to come we're already living in but we're living in this christianized

01:01:07

Um golden age first, right? The whole world will be christianized Then christ will return to a christianized world and then say oh, there's just one more enemy to destroy in its death

01:01:18

And so this is my huge caution If you make this age, not just the broad temporal age, but specifically the mosaic age

01:01:27

Well, then what did jesus promise that would happen at the end of the age? the second coming and so unfortunately, there there's a number of people that are big postal advocates trying to In my opinion redefine this age to be the mosaic

01:01:43

Aeon only that terminated in 70 a .d. Now by the grace of god, they're not concluding

01:01:49

Well preterist but Most of most of their advocates today are really bought into this age is the jewish age that ended at 70 a .d

01:01:59

Now i'm over here saying If you just see it as the temporal age Well, it does all the heavy lifting for you because that would include the jewish age and the christian age or gentile age today

01:02:09

But it rests on the more fundamental principle that we're still living in this temporal age

01:02:15

That we'll have a last day does that make sense This has been one of my skeptical side and you just pointed out something

01:02:22

I do I was And also there's like six minutes left. I hate to cut you off again. We've been interviewing for so long I have to like restart another zoom meeting.

01:02:27

This has been such a good discussion. I'll just part out. Um, anyway touching back upon what you just said, um

01:02:33

The whole age thing with with post mill. I've never been able to really gauge what year is

01:02:40

I don't even know why someone would even uh Advocate that the 70 ad was the year that it cut off At what day or or maybe the the month in 70 ad would that have been the cutoff for the age?

01:02:51

so you have there's so many unanswered questions with um with that side of the argument with with amil the reason why i'm in between is because Amil gives a more specific timeline between Uh the age from the fall of adam

01:03:07

Back to the return of christ and I think that makes more sense in a prophecy type of manner, but See, this is this is this is why i'm so confused and i've i've i've been battling back in between because I don't

01:03:19

Eschatology isn't my main thing. My main thing is apologetics, but I you have said on your channel before Correct me if i'm wrong here.

01:03:25

Uh, but you've said your your eschatology is like the future of apologetics And so yeah, yeah, yeah

01:03:31

Yeah. Yeah, so I uh I was gonna add uh, there's kind of two more points that and I won't take a long time explaining these

01:03:40

But something else that's really compelling about the all mill paradigm is christ can return at any moment, right because and this is biblical with the

01:03:48

The ten virgins in matthew in matthew chapter 28 about be ready. Have your wicks trimmed

01:03:54

Because the the return could be imminent at an hour that no one knows so be ready And all mill says the second coming can happen at any moment

01:04:02

But the post mill they're committed to saying we're not in the last days of the the church

01:04:09

But we're in the early days of the church age and so there still has to be a lot of christianizing that must be done for christ to return and so In my opinion, they've kind of pigeonholed themselves to saying well,

01:04:19

I guess that means the second return is still a long ways off So this this goes back to the book of revelation then um, because you read something like revelation chapter 7 and you'll read about the

01:04:32

Not to sound too jehovah's witnesses here But you'll like the 144 000 right the 12 000 of each tribe um

01:04:39

My question would be if we're looking at that literally how how would we even count that to gauge when the return of christ would be that's why

01:04:47

This is why I I you see why i'm agnostic on this issue because there's some specifics you have to be like This is supposed to be fulfilled

01:04:53

This is fulfilled and then you can be like this is when christ is going to return But like you said i'm ill christ can return any moment.

01:04:59

So so Um, that's why i've remained just so agnostic on it I I find it really difficult to even take a stance on it

01:05:07

But I think at some point I probably will take it I'm gonna give you a shameless plug real fast. So I interviewed on my channel

01:05:13

Uh, dr. Jeffrey johnson, and he wrote a book called the five points of all millennialism

01:05:20

Oh, and it's that's funny Oh, yeah. Now here's what I was gonna tell you though. Yeah, I know our time's kind of winding down here

01:05:26

What I was gonna tell you is in my study of presbyterian covenant theology and reformed baptist covenant theology

01:05:33

You know, one of the big differences is presbyterians have a mixed covenant always have that's why they baptize babies

01:05:41

Is because you can have unregenerate members in the covenant, right? Yeah reformed baptists We are distinctly saying nope only the regenerate makeup of the new covenant, right?

01:05:51

Yeah, mainly the elect and that even goes back into old testament saints

01:05:56

However, you want to articulate their justification is the same way and they're receiving the same benefits from the new covenant

01:06:02

So here's the thing, right? all -millennial eschatology is most compatible with reformed baptist covenant theology and it gets into theonomy and understanding the new covenant

01:06:17

Is is the power of the gospel for the the elect and the regenerate?

01:06:23

Not implementing moral laws to kind of expand this earthly kingdom because we're saying no it's already not yet the kingdom

01:06:31

We can't see with the physical eye but with the eye of faith And so that's that's my plug to say i've found a strong consistency with all mill and reformed baptist covenant theology

01:06:42

Okay That that's interesting. I'll look more into that then um I will do I will do some digging not only on your channel, but like every every all mill video ever made on youtube now

01:06:52

I could try I could try my confusion between um signs of of the book of revelation not like the the the

01:07:00

Um, like the six -headed dragon coming out of the waters and stuff i'm talking about the like the signs of the the people themselves the the people 144 000 144 000 the tribes of israel, you know the evangelizers and so my question to you then would be um, so I i'm coming at this as a skeptic between both but what would you

01:07:19

Say to to an objection like that saying how would you see those signs before knowing that that would be the sign of?

01:07:26

christ's second coming Yeah Yeah, so, um, there's a there's a few different takes to interpreting the book of revelation.

01:07:33

Yeah, and you do have a preteristic Interpretation, but obviously I would say, you know a partial preterist understanding where the first 20 chapters are maybe

01:07:41

You know in the past but then chapters 21 and 22 are telling us giving us a foretaste of that eternal

01:07:48

Okay, um consummated age. So my point is that preterist would kind of look at Roman 744 000 being a mark on the persecuted church and so forth then you have the idealist interpretation of revelation so What we're reading in revelation is kind of ongoing and true of the church today and will be until christ's return

01:08:09

And then you have a historicist Understanding and that's nuanced and then you kind of have a futurist

01:08:16

Look where you know everything after Revelation 4 and onward is kind of future so for me um,

01:08:24

I I am open to continuing to study these things what I find compelling is I really like elements of the preterist and the idealist perspective that yeah

01:08:34

There are some things that seem to already have been fulfilled and yet are still being fulfilled And so so you're like a partial preterist then?

01:08:43

Yeah, um when it comes to the all of it discourse Matthew 24 and it's in the synoptic accounts, but one

01:08:52

Approach and it's not purely preterist But I do think it's good to see that jesus was being asked two questions that he addressed

01:08:59

He is asking when shall these things be in relation to the destruction of the temple? And what would be the sign of your coming and at the end of the age is kind of question number two, right?

01:09:09

And so I just say okay Well, it makes sense to say that in the first century this generation would experience the destruction of the temple

01:09:16

But jesus also says this is just the beginning, right? These things will continue to happen to the end

01:09:23

Nothing's talking about the end of the age not the end of the temple And then that'll also be met at the second coming and so that's that is a type of preterism saying the destruction the temple happened

01:09:33

But the idealist says but there's this recapitulation of tribulation persecution

01:09:40

Um, you know against the saints that they will they will have victory through suffering And so that principle is not exclusive to partial preterism or ideal idealism or futuristic

01:09:52

They're all so my point is I like looking at revelation As recapitulation like this is going to be the reoccurring theme for all of god's elect

01:10:04

Right, so that my point to the 144 000 is god has his seal on his people, but they can't be lost

01:10:10

So this is very reminiscent of other scriptures and so i'm just saying that's going to continue to be true until christ returns

01:10:16

So is this talking about radically a future generation? I'm, not convinced of that and it's radically talking about only a first century audience

01:10:25

I'm, not really convinced of that. This will be true right because it's going to be birth pains, right? Just for example then just mentioning the 144 000 it's like stretched out over time is what you're saying.

01:10:36

I think maybe Yeah, okay. Okay. I see what you're saying. I see. Okay, cool. Cool. All right, neat neat.

01:10:42

Um All right. Well, I guess we we've sort of Uh beat the dead horse of eschatology so far

01:10:49

Terrorism and in amalism, uh, just just fully just rejecting free. No, but free free.

01:10:54

I think free does have some benefits pragmatically Um, it does have a sense of urgency to it.

01:11:00

No, i'm not saying. Um, i'm lenny's on millennia English please. Uh millennialism and post millennialism.

01:11:07

There we go. I did it. Yay. Um, free free mill, um Has a sense of urgency to it um with the with the rapture, um, there's

01:11:18

I mean, of course, there's been some crazy cases of people moving across the world because of the rapture uh, uh and ruining their lives because but Um, there are some good elements pragmatically in terms of uh

01:11:32

Willing to preach the gospel faster and more urgently that can be something i've noticed in that kind of ideal.

01:11:37

Yeah eschatology. Um, So real quick. I gotta tell you something that kind of also brought me out of the pre -mill

01:11:44

But I do I I do agree with saying like well my culture faithful preacher for 50 years

01:11:51

Dispensational pre -mill i'm over here saying whatever you do. You can't say, you know dispensational theology

01:11:57

Is you know rank heresy now? There is a classic traditional dispensationalism that preaches two gospels one to the jews one child so you can go crazy with anything

01:12:07

But just on the surface Praise god god uses faithful men and they maybe adopt that framework that I don't think is correct, correct

01:12:14

Now here's here's I think a defeater for pre -mill in first corinthians 15. This is this is a passage

01:12:20

That undoes full preterism because it touches on The second coming of jesus the resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things like paul talks about all those things being one

01:12:32

Event now, this is this is when we know this is how we know that those things haven't happened yet Because when jesus does return at his parricia, he will destroy the last enemy death.

01:12:44

Yeah Yeah, now the context death there is thanatos the termination of physical life Well preterists want to redefine that into some gnostic spiritual death

01:12:51

But it's all pointing back to jesus as being the first fruits And so he had a physical death and he had a physical bodily resurrection.

01:12:59

And so that's the whole paradigm Of what paul's talking about. So my point is when jesus returns death will be no more

01:13:06

Free and it's funny because that not only does that defeat, uh full preterism. It also poses a massive problem to Pre -millennialism because they have jesus returning and death continuing for a thousand, right?

01:13:18

That's good. I've never even thought of that before Now I do want to say this in terms of distinguishing pre -mill all mill and post mill

01:13:26

Think about this pre -mill. It's a downward trending graph. Things get worse worse and worse, right birth pains jesus returns

01:13:33

He restores all things right post mill i'm skipping all mill post mill has an upward trending graph, right?

01:13:39

Things get better and better and better Christianity explodes worldwide and then jesus returns which is where theonomy pretty much is birthed out of you know, you know 100 percent now all mill says both wickedness and righteousness increase parallel until christ returns and so you have wheat amongst the tares and We are promised to suffer in this present evil age and so my point is

01:14:06

Um, there's elements to where post mill and all or and pre -mill are right But it's to the exclusion of one another and i'm saying in order for the church to suffer and be persecuted

01:14:16

As much as righteousness increases you still have to have an increase of wickedness yeah,

01:14:23

I think I'm, not gonna I don't like to make subjective arguments. I really don't I it disgusts me but What putting a huge caveat here?

01:14:33

um I think Reasonably, so I will give all mill this I think it's reasonable to say

01:14:39

As much as obviously as as christian brothers and fellowship We can see that the fellowship usually even more recent times has gotten either

01:14:47

Far away from each other or super close like interlocked As like the real brotherhood of believers supposed to be where they're like, they're not just family by by by one in spirit

01:14:57

But but genuinely interacting with each other a lot. Um, uh, and and uh,

01:15:03

Forbearing that with one another and patience and suffering and love. Um, But there's also seems to be a great amount of this is going to sound really pre -mill here

01:15:11

Uh, but there's it seems to be a lot of evil going on with with the corrupt. This is a very Caustic type argument.

01:15:18

So forgive me, but the the corrupt governments uh There seems to be like because obviously we're we're both in the u .s.

01:15:25

So we both see a lot of uh, Corrupt, uh government structures or whatever and in anti -conservative values being being pushed.

01:15:32

Um, so Yeah, especially anti -christ values being pushed. Um, but anyway, that's a i'm trying to keep that as Minimalistic as possible not gonna get too deep because then i'll start sounding like I have the secret knowledge of what's gonna happen

01:15:44

I love not gonna. Yeah, let's let's Anyway, i'm trying to slowly pull you to the all mill world.

01:15:50

Yeah, you are You're gonna you'll get me there one day if you try hard enough, you'll see um i'm surprised and that's why i'm surprised you actually because I don't know if uh,

01:15:58

Most of the reformed baptist brothers that i've met are usually post mill Uh, so you make you being on those is like an outlier.

01:16:05

Don't tell don't tell dr Wyatt or jeff durbin on me. I thought no. No wait time out. I thought I thought james white was also a mill

01:16:12

Nope. Yeah about two years ago. He converted post mill. Wow Okay.

01:16:19

Wow from from amil Yep And he grew up dispensational pre -mill.

01:16:24

Well, yeah He went through the entire spectrum. He went from left to right

01:16:30

I tell people so i've talked to dr And we've invited him to come teach on eschatology against full preterism at 12th church and he said nope

01:16:37

Not my wheelhouse. That's jeff durbin. I'll do it on something else and we're just like i'll sweat it dr

01:16:42

White but on his dividing line, he's always said, you know cal there's a reason why calvin didn't write a commentary for revelation

01:16:49

He's just basically like it's all gonna pan out in the end And so ever since he went over to apologia, you know, he went over there right when jeff was preaching through the all of it

01:16:57

Discourse so that was the first thing. Oh and dr White has announced what convinced him of post mill was what?

01:17:04

Doug wilson said and I kind of facepalmed because I thought this is not a compelling argument, but he said what if We're not in the last days of the church age.

01:17:15

But what if we're in the early days of the church age? I'm, like that logic work either either direction, but that was that was

01:17:23

Along with he was already a theonomist even though he was on mill he was Because greg bonson was pro theonomy and and to a degree.

01:17:31

We're all theonomist if we believe in god's law Yeah, but there's no But right and so we already believe in general equity of the law and to me that's that's the healthy theonomy of saying

01:17:43

You know what by what standard? Yeah, the moral equity of the law Which we can appeal to old testament, but that's part and parcel of the whole post -millennial paradigm

01:17:53

You know of christ Um him writing until he puts all his enemies under his feet.

01:17:59

Yeah so the interpretation of until for them, that's a Christianization world long.

01:18:05

Yeah, that's okay. Yeah You're making you're making omnil more and more your language is like so perfect.

01:18:10

You're good at crafting crafting languages And that way because uh, no you make you make omnil really appealing.

01:18:16

I will say that. Um, Okay All right, I mean before I because i'm i'm a big debater too, but I have to restrain myself

01:18:25

But i'll leave it i'll leave it at that. Um Okay. Um, what what's the next question? We're gonna move on to before we get into a debate on eschatology

01:18:33

Which granted i'm not i'm not like super informed on so What i'm talking about there? Um, okay, so um

01:18:40

Favorite subject you like to discuss in your show. It cannot be frederism I i'm glad you reminded me of that.

01:18:47

Yeah I think what i'm most passionate currently Is contending and evangelizing the church of christ?

01:18:56

Because I mean that struck a heart chord with me Is there's so many church of christ in jonesborough, arkansas.

01:19:02

It's either southern baptist or church of christ That's kind of what you see. That's why we church planted.

01:19:08

We really did not see a healthy church many Evangelical churches but not healthy churches and I think there's a huge difference there

01:19:16

And so I think right now just getting to help people Think through the gospel of grace and help with you know

01:19:24

Help people out of the church of christ that's currently i've really been enjoying. I started doing live streams though Oh, really recently?

01:19:32

Yeah, so you'll see some live streams and that's been fun. And so i've been touching a lot of reformed

01:19:39

Doctrines and so that's that's where that's also a heartbeat like when you when you embrace the doctrines of grace

01:19:45

I mean, you're almost born again again. Yeah, it changes your entire worldview. It shifts it shifts

01:19:51

So my heart is very you know, what lives in the doctrines of grace like to me it contextualizes the gospel of grace now what this goes back to our other question that you asked me and it just hit me because i've had to table some of These things but i've really been into studying 1689 federalism.

01:20:11

It's basically The the classic uh reformed baptist covenant theology view and there's some nuance that's been talked about since nehemiah cox

01:20:21

To sam renahan to dr. Jeffrey johnson And this is something that dr. White openly admits that he never latched onto just the terminology

01:20:30

Of 1689 federalism and so he just kind of doesn't have a dog in that fight And I've told people if he did he wouldn't have went post mill

01:20:38

Um But um, i've been really enjoying studying reformed baptist covenant theology like that It's beautiful like it all it's one of those things that oh man god does have an elect people because of the eternal covenant between father son and spirit.

01:20:59

Yeah, and so it just it kind of Puts all of redemptive history in its proper place.

01:21:04

And so if I can just do another shameless book plug Dr. Jeffrey johnson's book the kingdom of god

01:21:10

I actually plan on interviewing. Dr. Jeffrey, uh soon on that book, but if people go look up Um my interview with him on the five points of all millennialism if you go on the show notes

01:21:21

I have his sermon series also that he posted on Covenant theology

01:21:28

Okay, neat neat. Um I will admit the what was it called federal vision or something like that.

01:21:34

I've never okay Or yeah, because i've not federal vision that's that's something that doug wilson got tangled up in And it's not good.

01:21:43

I would say i've seen I I know something about federal not federal headship.

01:21:48

That's something different I'm talking about federal i've seen doug will something about uh, doug wilson being involved with federal vision The thing you would talk about federal what was it called again?

01:21:56

Oh, yeah, but it's real similar to federal vision That's why i'm stressing. It's not that yeah 1689 uh

01:22:04

Federalism federalism. Okay. Yeah, what is that? I've never even really gotten That's another term for reformed baptist covenant theology

01:22:13

Okay, okay Yep Okay.

01:22:19

All right. Yeah, my brain's already breaking. Okay, i'm gonna move on i've learned so much from you already.

01:22:25

Okay. No, you're good Awesome. Awesome. Okay Okay, we hit that. Um, I I mean you already answered this question somewhat

01:22:32

But I one of the questions I wrote was ever had any publicly moderated debates and if so on what topic or topics

01:22:39

So checks out i've been a part of public debates Yeah, you know in front of a crowd of 200.

01:22:44

I've done a lot of internet debates on marlin's channel the gospel truth I've done I don't even know how many i've done on his channel people can go look at and i've also been on standing for truth

01:22:53

Which don donny brzezinski does a great job over there at saying truth i've debate on there

01:22:59

And i've hosted debates on my channel i've hosted two And there's something in the works for a third debate that i'm going to moderate and host in the near future

01:23:09

Okay. All right. Neat. Well, wait, so what what um debates have you had on your channel personally?

01:23:16

Uh, there's been two and it's one on the topic that must not be named. I'll throw it in there, you know, but the uh,

01:23:24

No, no the first the first debate Well, I can't remember the order but a member from the church that I pastor at um

01:23:32

Our deacon. He's a deacon now. He debated a church of christ that I had on and then I think they debated on Justification by faith alone.

01:23:39

So yeah, it was respectful. I was moderating I kept up with time. It was really good And then the other one

01:23:45

I had dr. Sam frost debating a hyperpreterist of all things Well, those are fun.

01:23:51

Those those are two of my most viewed videos or it's up there in the top five or ten So, okay.

01:23:57

I have this is a question that I didn't write down. I wanted to actually Ask you this personally. Um So I I have a quite a

01:24:05

I I basically am like a semi Deacon or mod, whatever you want to call it. Yeah of a of a it sounds kind of cringey, but just just bear with me

01:24:14

Um of a discord server. That's like a protestant. Uh reconquista sort of a thing. We're trying to It's like another reformation of trying to reform liberal churches sort of a thing

01:24:23

But there's there's some ironically a church of christ person in there i'm not going to give them a name because they watch my channel, but he

01:24:31

Was affirming Eternal security as as someone in the church of christ that was confusing to me That that's not something they usually affirm ever ever bumped into somebody that comes from the church of christ perspective

01:24:41

It affirms eternal security or once they've always saved or perseverance, whatever you want to call it No, that's incompatible with yeah

01:24:48

So he either doesn't realize that Or he realizes it and he's slowly moving out of the church christ because that is totally antithetical to what they stand for Yeah, you you had said that and i'm not very well versed in coc theology

01:25:03

But from from what you would I gather from what you said is that the coc coc theology is basically your justification is

01:25:11

Uh, you're baptized over and over again to keep on removing your past sins from that previous time So like every every lord's day you'd go in and get baptized or rebapt or whatever

01:25:20

Whatever certain time period passes before you since we're giving it again They're true pelagians meaning.

01:25:26

Oh, yeah, they believe you're born perfect Untouched by original sin or anything like that. It's it's your environment

01:25:33

That corrupts you like adam in the garden. So i'm just saying the coc is heretical on many fronts

01:25:39

They mean they have a water gospel a baptismal justification in galatians 1 says that's anathema, right and you know, they're

01:25:47

They're only a couple hundred years old and so they've not had time to have a full orbed

01:25:53

Systematic theology and so they're really just roman catholic light in that sense It's it's roman catholicism without the original sin

01:26:02

And without a pope and less sacrament and and and it's hyper congregationalist probably that's what

01:26:08

I think You're you're right now. They are eldership ruled and I would say not gracefully ruled.

01:26:14

They're the elders. They're Rule with an iron fist because it's legalism. So it's like Mormonism per se like the elders like keeping the sheep in by intimidation or something or whatever 100

01:26:25

I mean they they will scare you because another mark of a cult and Walter martin and his kingdom of the cults

01:26:32

He said this is kind of a big indicator a big red flag when a group claims to be the one true church

01:26:38

Yep, church of christ when they tell you their little five -step formula You got to believe you got to repent you got to confess you got to be baptized what they don't tell you

01:26:47

Six step is you got to be all those things baptized in their church or in their church

01:26:52

Yeah, that's so that's that's another mark of a cult. Yeah, that's I I tend to find that with either the the oral tradition guys or the the one true church which sometimes they think interlocked but A lot of times it is the you know, one true church thing.

01:27:07

Mormonism does it jehovah's witnesses do it All the cults do it at some point And what you just listed that those are restorationist cults, which so are the church of christ

01:27:17

They all birthed out of the same time period. Oh, oh that well, yeah, judge ruthenford was roughly you know something else crazy

01:27:23

Yeah, yeah to touch on that which must not be named. Oh boy Well preterism started with max king back in the 1990s who was a church of christ minister

01:27:34

I did not know that That makes so much sense now Isn't that wild that was a church christ doctrine why in the world

01:27:44

Oh my brain Okay, leave it to the the the apologetic dog the two merry the two areas of emphasis that i've had for the past two years

01:27:53

I've been church christ and full preterist and they have a point of origin They have it So the reason why it's easier for you to even contend with the church of christ guys are because usually they end up being full preterist anyways at that point what's wild what's wild is um full preterism really

01:28:11

Really tries to leech off post mill And it goes back to because a lot of the post mill already

01:28:18

Have a lot of fulfillment in the past And if they can convince you on this age in the age to come

01:28:23

Then you're just one half step away from being in the full preterist world. Ooh Every sentence you talk about eschatology you're making ah mil son more convincing

01:28:37

You're so proud of that no, uh, yeah, okay All right So me me and you were really well versed in debate and I like watching debates too not the ones that i've done but I like watching

01:28:47

Um debates from from popular apologists. And so I was wondering one of the questions I had for you was

01:28:52

Um, do you have any favorite debates that you like to watch? or or Just binge watch over and over again

01:29:00

Just for how great they are Oh, yes, I do I you're asking some really good questions because I don't think i've ever talked to anybody about this.

01:29:09

Oh boy Um, I recommend all of dr. White's debates even some that I think that like I'm trying to judge even dr.

01:29:18

White critically because there's some things I disagree with on how you articulate and frame things But I mean, he's the goat he's coming up on 200 debates.

01:29:25

So I just want to quickly say all his debates I've watched many of those over and over again, but there is one even that I watch more often than dr

01:29:33

White's debates. Yeah, I love greg bonson's debate Number one, it wasn't a fully moderated debate.

01:29:41

Was it? Okay, so that was that that's definitely one of the two that I will listen to over and over again the other one

01:29:49

I think I like list to even more than the stein debate is when he debated rc scroll. Yeah Yeah, wasn't it on how many times it wasn't it?

01:29:58

Like the the precept versus classical debate Yep, I think it was framed. Um The the best christian apologetic essentially, but yeah, it was it was classical versus precept.

01:30:09

Yeah What was your what was your thoughts on that debate? I'd love to hear that It was it was excellent because I love rc sprawl so much, right?

01:30:16

but you can tell john gershner just In his ear about you know classical apologetics and I have

01:30:22

I have their book on their critique Um a critique of presubstantialism when they're writing on classical apologetics

01:30:28

You can tell for whatever reason he had just a bent he really thought that precept just begs the question right tries to um

01:30:39

Assert god's existence without an argument and you could tell Rc sprawl does not like doesn't understand the transcendental nature of argumentation when you're when you're arguing

01:30:51

Holistically worldview. Yeah, you can just tell Um, and you can tell he loves thomas aquinas too much.

01:30:58

Yeah And but that's that's his which he loves. I don't think he was I don't think he was a thomas though I don't no,

01:31:05

I don't think he was no he was a thomas He was I mean he has to be in terms of he loved aquinas's five arguments for god's existence, which they all

01:31:16

Logically break down when you pray when you know how to press them the right way, but he was a thomas that that's one of my big critiques to um

01:31:23

Rc sprawl and I love him. I love him to pieces But you know classical apologetics is trying to make two arguments for god's existence and then the resurrection of jesus and then marry him together

01:31:33

Yeah, and rc even admitted When he's interacting with an atheist 80 percent of that conversation.

01:31:39

He's probably gonna speak in philosophical terms and talk philosophy Yeah, and precept just declares the truth that the the sinner already knows to be true, you know

01:31:50

Um So that's a great debate and you could just tell um

01:31:55

Bonson is just a champion. I mean and he even showed love and grace and charity to rc even when rc started sounding presuppositional at times and you can almost hear in rc's voice like I just don't get it and they're like I get

01:32:08

It's one of those things. Yes When like, you know the doctrines of grace when it finally clicks you're just like bam when precept

01:32:15

Makes sense you're just like oh it changed everything like this is the christian worldview yeah, well the thing is and this is why

01:32:22

I I became precept is because naturally from the doctrines of grace precept naturally logically follows because if you have the doctrines of Mankind naturally rebels against god and suppresses the knowledge of truth and unrighteousness at all times

01:32:33

Naturally, if you if you bring to the image of god that which he knows to be true That's ultimately presuppositional because he's it's presupposing that he doesn't want god to exist

01:32:43

You're attacking that presupposition, but from the classical or evidentialist perspective it's more of like You're you're presenting pieces of little bits of information about god to them and they're just like I don't care

01:32:53

I don't want to believe in him. So so and this is something i'm not eastern orthodox, but I think this is something Uh j.

01:32:59

Dyer, you might have heard of him before big time. Um, I think he's actually done some good stuff against atheists Um, he brought me to to transcendentalism

01:33:07

Because of uh this one statement, it's really good Um, he said evidence is ultimately interpreted by paradigms um and paradigms are what transcendentalism or presuppositionalism leads to Um, because everything that you interpret as evidence is led by your presuppositions

01:33:24

Um, if your presupposition is I don't want god to exist then no evidence for god exists And that's why you get popular skeptics saying i'm just not convinced of god's existence

01:33:32

Uh, well the evidence is the lead there, but anyway Yeah, I have a couple thoughts especially about j.

01:33:39

Dyer Oh, and by the way, I believe he was he was a student of greg bunsen. So he was also president for a while I didn't know.

01:33:46

Oh, well, he he started out southern baptist went reformed baptist presbyterian roman catholic and then ended up eo

01:33:52

Yeah, so i'll be honest. I listened to a lot of j. Dyer because he does speak in transcendental categories

01:34:00

But real quick I was going to say evidentialism it goes back to the quote you just made, you know Classical apologetics starts with man and reasons up to god.

01:34:09

God. Yep And you only end up with probabilistic conclusions. So it's an inductive kind of argument.

01:34:16

You don't get Certainty, it's technically agnosticism. Yeah Yeah, it's a probabilistic argument that you leave the atheist saying yeah

01:34:25

But that's that's not a slam dunk case There might be evidence that we've not considered out there and they they can get as wild as saying there might be 11 dimensions um in the universe that we haven't discovered yet to I mean

01:34:39

There are arguments like that You leave the door open to hypothetical critiques that you have to grant them saying well that actually might be true

01:34:48

It actually might be the case that the word of god is not ultimately true You you can't speak in those absolute categories whether or rather Presuppositionalism starts with god at the paradigmatic

01:35:00

Mm -hmm Parameters, right of saying you're starting with the holistic worldview And when you start with the sovereign triune god who has revealed himself clearly in his word

01:35:11

Well, then when you reason down to man you get certainty you get certainty, especially if something is argued to be transcendentally true or necessary Then um, that's how you have to talk about truth.

01:35:23

So yeah with good with j. Dyer And because hey who knows maybe he'll see this one day and he'll put your channel on the map

01:35:31

But maybe he'll want to debate me. That's cool No, there you go. Yeah, and he's a smart guy But he does the fundamental thing that greg bonson told us to be warned against is he introduces human autonomy?

01:35:45

On at least two accounts that I can think of right number one Their whole energy essence distinction is predicated on a synergistic view of salvation

01:35:55

They love using the term synergy And so they are biting the bullet of saying well, man, of course man is autonomous.

01:36:01

Of course man has contracausal uh categorical freedom and i'm over here saying

01:36:07

What you just introduced into your worldview and and sure they have strong arguments of church history

01:36:13

But I think they understand church history wrong as well. Yeah, but you openly admit to invoking um autonomy that will

01:36:23

Necessary that will contribute contradict the necessary attributes of god himself

01:36:29

And that's where i'm over here like jay you you know that can't actually cash out god cannot be omnipotent and not omniscient if Libertarian freedom is true like they both can't coexist because it will actually have god limiting his omnipotent choices and i'm saying that's a blatant contradiction so um

01:36:51

Anyway, I still like listening to jay dyer because he argues transcendentally especially with atheists.

01:36:56

It's good. It's good even for us protestants. It's good um Yeah, okay.

01:37:02

Um I think I already asked you that question favorite apologists. You already gave me three of them So i'm trying to recount the questions.

01:37:08

I haven't asked you yet. Um What was I guess more question because the time's about to end again I guess we can start cutting off the interview here.

01:37:15

Anyways, it's been a while been like almost two hours now, so Good for that. Um What has been your favorite debate that you've participated?

01:37:25

Oh, that's another one of those which which one of your kids do you love more? Yeah, uh, because A lot of the debates have been meaningful for different reasons to the topics.

01:37:37

I guess the most meaningful debate that I think about often i'm thankful for at least at this point in time is my debate with brock kindle at Arkansas state because I had

01:37:48

I had over a hundred church of christ present having to listen to me Explain the context of acts 238 and other various verses.

01:37:57

Yeah, and that that debate god has used to help so many people um encourage baptists, you know asking tough questions and i've i've had documentary crews come and actually interview me in person and They're just that's opened up so many doors.

01:38:11

They opened up the door to cultish and things like that So I think because I could talk about so many other fun awesome stories from other debates

01:38:19

But that one kind of does rise above the top and it was that debate that kind of birthed the apologetic dog

01:38:26

Wow, okay. Well good um This has been Uh an interesting episode for my audience.

01:38:33

I'm sure your audience as well. Uh, uh It's been a journey. Um Was low -key kind of nervous to interview because i'm now i'm not technically a fan of you so That makes you even more unbiased

01:38:49

I'll become on there because of that. No, um Uh, no, but my goal here is to to obviously, um get to know more and more people interview more people on my show

01:38:59

And and i i'm so thankful that you decided to come on my show It was really more of like a gentle outreach and you you really picked it up So and you've you've given my audience in uh, and me a show

01:39:10

Very informative very funny very very chillax. Not super super overly serious or anything so Um, I hope we can you know make more episodes soon or whatever you can if that's fine

01:39:22

Uh, we can we can keep on talking future stay in contact whatever but um, I hope you I I pray that you have success in whatever you do your whether it be your channel debates

01:39:32

Your live streams whatever maybe or your ministry, um, because I pray ultimately god will be glorified through whatever works he tends to accomplish uh, so I think i'm going to start ending the interview off here.

01:39:45

Um And I guess we'll uh, see you guys later on I think today's sunday, right?

01:39:50

It's sunday night. Yeah Um, then I guess we'll be we'll be making an episode on wednesday. That's going to be on Uh philippians 2 and it's going to be on as well as john 14 and the potter

01:40:00

Um identified in john 1 and we'll finish the philippian series and then we'll keep on moving.

01:40:05

So Um, and then I might be doing a reaction video now that he's been on my channel Apologetic dog over here has been on my channel

01:40:12

I'll probably do maybe a debate review of one of his videos because i've done only maybe 12 or 13 debate reviews on my channel.

01:40:18

I needed to do more so Uh, we'll do that eventually, uh, and then hopefully we can keep on collaborating.

01:40:24

So I love you all and I will see you all later and uh, jeremiah say goodbye to my audience All right.

01:40:30

Thank you so much everybody for listening to the apologetic dog And so if you if you get a chance,

01:40:36

I would love for you to come check out my channel and subscribe And if you like my content and share it, uh that helps my ministry grow and my heart is just that the gospel of grace

01:40:46

Would just continue to circulate throughout the internet and just be able to impact people's lives to the glory of god

01:40:51

And so wesley, thank you so much for having me on just want to tell you all god bless. Thank you.

01:40:56

All right Thank you everybody. Godspeed So again one body, which is the body his body, which is his church the church of christ

01:41:06

I mean, man If you just had some a little bit of common sense you think he drove by these denominations where it says grandma's church baptist church

01:41:13

Methodist church live church. I mean he drove an hour 20 minutes here and they act like they give god the glory and jesus

01:41:21

Grandma's church Baptist church Presbyterian church church of christ Again, they deny