Interview on Apologetics! Topics: Sola Scriptura, Cults, Eschatology, & Theonomy w/ @ThetaMinistries

Hello everybody, welcome back to Theta Ministries in podcast. I'm your host Wes and today we have a very very special episode.

I.

This is a my brother Jeremiah. I found him about a week ago, and he was doing a debate review between Layton flowers and James White. Notably two gigantic opponents. It's a lot of drama surrounding their their ministry or whatever.

But be that as it may I contacted him and I reached out to him and I said hey you wouldn't do a video. Do it so here we are. So I just want to get to know you Jeremiah a little bit. Tell me a bit about yourself and what you do.

Leslie, thanks for having me on. So my day job is I'm a hospice chaplain. I've been doing that for a little bit over two years. And so I'm able to share the gospel and just minister to people. It's been an incredible Time doing that but I also serve my heart and passion is I'm a pastor and elder at 1225 church in Jonesboro, Arkansas a part of the church plant.

They were a little bit over three years old. And so hopefully in the near future, I'll be able to just be able to do that full-time and I love my church family. It's been incredible. Wesley and they're just like hey, Jeremiah, you should definitely pursue Apologetics and I'm like, I would love it.

And so out of my church family support and the babe of all babes. That's my wife with Ali's support and blessing. She said yes, you should definitely pursue apologetics Jeremiah. And so I have an apologetics ministry that's around two years old so I'm still the new kid on the block in the apologetics arena, but you can find a major part of my content and my YouTube channel the Apologetic dog and people ask me like why dog why a dog with the beard?

I'm like, well, we're reformed number one. So you gotta have a beard every every I think I have a good beard. That's why.

Yeah, and.

When you look at the apologetic dog logo, you'll see first Timothy 620 kind of embedded in the logo and I spent a lot of time and prayer with my wife about where the the vision of the ministry should be aimed at to at least let people know my heart and I'm a student of Cornelius of Antille and Greg Bonson and a lot of Bonson's work and apologetics.

So very very precept in nature automatically from the get-go a precept.

Like when you look at the intro to my videos it's gonna say reformed apologetics. Trinitarian apologetics worldview apologetics. And presuppositional apologetics and so that's kind of I let people know we're out of the gate where I'm coming from.

And so I either make friends really fast or I make enemies really right?

No, there is there is no neutrality when it comes to this.

This the sin of neutrality for all my suckers out there. They know we're talking about. Yeah.

Yeah, I actually I made a quote a couple days ago, I think it was pretty cool. And I'm not trying to trademark it or copyright it but I said, um, I think I legitimately think Priceless conservatism is worse than unbelief.

It's trying to play neutrality on non-neutral grounds, but right. Good good.

No, well, I'm glad that you're already familiar with kind of presuppositional apologetics and thinking Transcendentally we'll get more into that and so I was talking to my wife I just said, you know, I I don't want to be just so confined to the doctrines of grace.

That's why we were starting to think about DOG dog. And so when I when I thought back to first Timothy 620 all is telling Timothy Oh Timothy guard The deposit entrusted to you and so kind of the Eureka moment happened with me and my wife were like, hey Apologetic dog that guards the gospel of grace.

This is all Christians and that verse continues to say Wesley avoid irreverent babble pagan philosophy, right and Contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. And so there's my precept coming out because we do apologetics.

We don't switch gears from theology to apologetics. No your theology informs drive your apologetics. Yes. Yes I love sharing this quote with people. But John frame said presuppositional ism is Sola scriptura applied.

Yes. I just tell people I'm never leaving the Word of God my son over here usually will say John 17 17 where Jesus says your word is truth and The Word of God is necessary in order to contextualize and understand the human experience.

So anyway, that's a little bit of the apologetic dog and you might find this interesting Wesley. So with apologetics a lot of a lot of apologetics is just defensive by nature now I tell people Apologetic is also offensive by nature because I'm Jude 1 verse 3 that just says we're to contend for the faith.

That's one. But in Jonesboro, Arkansas There are a lot of Church of Christ. And so I just tell people that's a sect. That's a kind of denomination. I don't say that in in terms of saying I welcome them in the fold, but the Church of Christ our restorationist group that comes from Alexander Campbell and One of their claims to fame is you have to be baptized in order to have your past sins washed away.

And the more that I've interacted with the Church of Christ They preach a false gospel that cannot save according to Galatians chapter 1 and the the anathema. It's my point is I have a heavy emphasis Contending with the Church of Christ just doing debates with them evangelizing them.

I even have a page on my my Facebook. That's the Church of Christ exile. So by God's grace over these past couple years I've had so many people worldwide reach out to me email me and they're needing Community because God is saving them by his sovereign grace out of this legalistic sect of that has a distorted Legalistic gospel, right?

And so that's one of the huge emphasis of my ministry is Really helping people be equipped to be able to engage with the Church of Christ.

Good good. Yeah, so so you would because I know you may have seen there are other Reformed apologist on on this website here. Like you remind me of a vocab Malone. He has his own little yes. Every I've noticed every apologist has either one religion they engage mainly or multiple religions.

You have like the James White engaging Mormonism in Islam vocab is black Hebrew Israelites you have A Bodhi Baca mainly tearing down secularism and so forth but your main thing would be like the Church of Christ or is that just like an section of what you do in your.

Yeah, so right now it is a major emphasis and just like dr. White when he started Alpha and Omega ministries many years ago. His focus was on Mormons and then over time. I think God just opened doors to expand that apologetics ministry.

So definitely the first year my ministry was heavily Church Christ. Doing public debates. I'm a part of a university town. ASU, Arkansas State. Okay, and so I debated a Church Christ preacher in front of an audience of 200 and they had to listen to this Baptist.

Explained the context of acts 238 first Peter 321 all the text. So it was great. And that's the major video like when people go check out my channel.

That's the first video that they'll see and so that was a huge but was was the topic on like justification or what was it on? Specifically was it a generation or?

Yeah. Yeah, let me read you this.

Very wordy.

Proposition because I tried to get the gentleman to Simplify it down and he would not debate me if I did not say it exactly how he wanted because I essentially wanted it to. Be this water baptism safe now, that's a little ambiguous.

What do you mean by save right? I'd be pushing for justification like you said, right? Right. So he said that we have to do this proposition. I'm like great. It's not gonna matter at the end the day, but the proposition we argued he argued as the Affirmative the New Testament teaches that the Liberty from the penalty of past sins is at the point of an external act of obedience.

In that wild that's so. I mean it's good to be nuanced when you're when you're doing debates. But that that even the thesis topic was too nuanced that you have to define so many terms in that one thesis.

But my big encouragement to a lot of men in the ministry just said Jeremiah you be crystal clear and let him confuse everybody. That's I got it. The first year so really the apologetics ministry birthed out of that debate.

That was my I think fourth debate in total at the time. That was number four I've done. I've done ten or so now and to have been in person. So that's been a lot of fun first year though. Was mainly Church Christ.

I still do a lot of content dealing with Church Christ objections and proof text and I have a segment on my channel called Conversations with Church of Christ to exiles and so they're testimonials of how they've got to save them out of the Church Christ and Many of them are starting to understand the doctrines of grace and are just right, you know falling in love with the biblical Jesus.

Which is incredible. Well, I say there's another group that in this last eight months or so that I've been engaging with heavily and you'll probably like what? Have you ever heard of full preterism? I okay.

So yes.

I thought I'm what I've heard about full preterism is that full preterism is the view that essentially all in time or eschatological views. Those are essentially irrelevant. Everything has been fulfilled from like Matthew 24 or Daniel 9 and then that's like extrapolated to saying Christianity is pretty much ended.

Because right. Yeah, it's bit and that's why I think it's really dangerous because you're saying the end times won't happen. It's like.

Right what the church has believed for 2 ,000 years about our blessed hope and the end times they got it all wrong. It is not a Blessed hope it's a realized hope that happened back in 78 70 AD. 70 AD Flavius Josephus destruction the temple 70.

That's why I like you know, yeah.

Okay.

Those are those are two groups that I've engaged with. Apologetically a lot kind of recently but I do tell people it's not just a negative apologetics ministry like I'm contending for justification by faith alone.

I am contending for reformed theology in very, you know charitable respectable Circles and so when people go look up the debates that I've done. I have branched out from talking about baptism and yeah.

Eschatology, so it's been a while. Has that ever branched out into talking like to Roman Catholics or to Eastern Orthodox is on Forensic justification by faith alone or so forth or you ever had any debates like that before?

Yeah, my second debate was with a Eastern Orthodox on Sola Fide. So people can go look up. That was my second debate. Third debate was with the Roman Catholic and the propositional question was was Mary sinless.

And so that's kind of and I love that study. I read a book. Dr White wrote and it was funny if you go look this up Wesley, so I gave a pretty stinger. And my most humble unbiased opinion a stinger of an opening statement, you know.

Yeah, I was making some very pointed arguments and it rattled a lot of Roman Catholics. And so they all went running to William Albrecht.

I.

Woke William Albrecht out of his slumber and Emergency Saturday evening live stream to rush Apologetic. Oh, this is before the apologetics ministry birth, but he is not a fan of Jeremiah Nortier. Oh, yeah, if you go if you go look in the archives, he did a our last name just roasting me to know.

Should I like a horn a Trent horn just rebutting you for an hour, but no, I was right that didn't happen. But that's good. That's good. No, that's ironic. I'm sorry to cut you off with that. I made a video Roughly two weeks ago on the exact same topic.

You just mentioned. It was like a 46 man. I went through Romans 3 I went through Colossians 1 and this is my argument against the sinlessness of Mary and my video was titled Why these sinlessness of Mary would undercut the deity of Christ and this is how hmm.

So if you're decently good at Greek You'll see when you read Romans 3 the Greek word Panta shows up multiple times which describes all or everything of something. And we go back to like Colossians 1 you'll see the Greek word Panta show up again in Colossians 1 16.

What does Christ create? Anta all. And then when you go back to John 1 You read John 1 3 and I'm just saying this remember your Panta D. Otto, which means all by him. So in the the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox will say Well all doesn't mean all in Romans 3 because not all have fallen short because that means Mary's fallen short.

Then I'm like, okay. But you're saying Jesus isn't God because if all doesn't mean all there if it's the exact same Greek term Panta. If you apply that to John 1 in Colossians 1 you're saying Jesus. Possibly I'm putting it in quotations possibly didn't create all things.

So if all if we're playing the exact same standard from that scripture if she's the exact same Hermeneutical method to that same scripture over there as well. Hmm. No, that would be my undercutting mark.

I.

Think that's really good. I'll give you two points that I remember studying. One was the main main argument that I gave actually works really well with what you said. And I'll tell you kind of a minor argument that I made that actually caused a storm over in the Roman Catholic world.

My big argument that was never rebutted never really even talked about and when I asked when I was in cross-examination With the Roman Catholic I was debating. He kind of looked at me like a deer in headlights, but I said Romans 514 so kind of piggybacking off of hey, it's already clear that there's none righteous none after God, right?

No, not one. And then Romans also brings up, you know Under the law Jew Gentile All are under sin right going with the Romans 3 23 and so in Romans 5 we understand there's federal.

Headship it ship, right? Yeah, and so in verse 14.

This is kind of how I began one of my major arguments yet death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of The one who was to come.

So, you know we see the definite article the Talking about Christ though. The only one who does not Suffer under the the federal headship of Adam. I mean, so since there's a particularity here Mary would not escape the federal headship and therefore the original sin born under Adam.

Ooh, that was so that was good just because there's it's so particular. It's the one and only talking about Jesus Christ. He is the only one, you know, we're we're sin and death did not reign and touch him.

So that was my big point. You want to hear the the argument that caused the the circus storm? I'd love to so I meant I went back to Mary's Magnificat back in Luke chapter 1 and so, you know, they're ready for the The reformed Protestant to say hey look how Mary is beginning her Magnificat my soul Magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in my Savior.

Yeah now they're ready for them, right? And so I said that's true. She's a Savior in the context of Exalting God right herself. She says my soul magnifies the Lord. There's so many Psalms that you know sinners that are saved by grace are praying in the same manner I say if you look at verse Let's see here verse 48 or he for God My Savior has looked upon the humble estate of his servant.

And I just said look this word humble this this word humble estate. It's one word in the Greek is not a mere humility. This is talking about moral guilt and I tried to demonstrate when you look in the Greek Septuagint King David.

I think it's in Psalm 25.

He is.

Magnifying the Lord from his soul starting out the same way as Mary and he's confessing his sin. Yeah, saying that God has looked on his moralist for a state. Or his humble estate meaning his moral guilt and he's confessing his sins and God ultimately is showing him favor.

I'm just saying look Mary is saved by grace through faith. Just like all believers. Yeah.

I like I like how you covered both bases because if you were to talk to the See us Augustinians would would also reaffirm with the Roman Catholics that were born under original sin. If you're not you're not God essentially like the incarnate Christ.

But the Eastern Orthodox would take you up on the other objection to say well, we don't believe in original sin we believe in more of like the The ability as babies not to sin until like an age of accountability sort of a thing.

And so I like how you covered both bases from Scripture and from the anthropology of the original church fathers. That was pretty neat. All right, cool neat neat, all right. So I do have a little bit of a structure.

Usually my videos are very. I got my structure from James White in my videos. I just improv and sort of just ramble. You can probably see that from the camera angle. I copied him if you're watching. Oh, you're good.

Yeah, you can see. Okay, so I have a few questions. I organized it a little bit this time. What already you already answered that question pretty much a while. You got you in the ministry. I think you pretty much already answered that question.

Um, what is what is the purpose of your channel and ministry overall?

Yeah, so when you click on my youtube channel, it just says hey. My name is Jeremiah nortier and my desire is to glorify God through apologetics. And so I'm a pastor at heart and my content firstly is geared towards the members of twelve five church those whom the Lord has Entrusted me to kick take care of their souls.

And so I always have them in mind first. They hold me accountable. I'm not a rogue apologist. In fact if people were doing apologetics and they're not members of a healthy Church, then you're doing it wrong.

You're doing it in a way. That's not according to God's revealed will and so. That's that's kind of who I am.

Is.

Apologetics essentially is just sharing truth defending it guarding it giving a reason for it and You know, I'm kind of like you I've really benefited from Dr. James White's just his whole ministry for the past 40 years.

And I will say people say like who is the most influential in my life and I kind of give them three People and I can do it kind of fast. Dr. John MacArthur. Yeah, I'm no longer a dispensation. Yeah. Yeah, I still have like that I don't say that reluctantly or condescendingly like I'm just not dispensational my framework.

Even though that's orthodox and affirms, you know The essentials of the Christian faith right and I always consult the old Johnny Mac commentary when I'm doing my study. So Johnny Mac taught me a love for the Word of God right number one then Got RC Sproul his commentary essentially on the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I'm not Presbyterian. Yeah, I know. Already have big disagreements with RC. He was he passed away as a post-millennialist and so I'm not I don't share that same Ethnological conviction and I tell you what, that's okay, too.

We can have differing eschatologies right and so RC taught me a love for church history. Yeah, and just a passion for the sovereignty of God. And so that's been very Integral and just me coming into ministry and doing apologetics and the number three is dr White kind of took the best from both worlds in apologetics, right?

And so as you have mentioned, you know me getting to interview him. He's actually came and spoke at 12 -5 church on two different occasions now. And so I got to share a stage with him and Wow kind of talk openly in front of a crowd at our church.

And you know, I was fangirling and I was trying not to you know, be nervous up there. But we had a great time and so I just those three men have been just very influential.

God has used them mightily in my life. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. All right, cool moving on. Um, what is your favorite guests that you've had on your show so far? Oh.

That's tough. That's like asking a parent to say what's their favorite kid. All the guests have been great for the unique things that I've asked them on. I'll answer it this way. Having dr. White on just incredible.

In fact, you know, I got to interview him on his debate tour Review. We reviewed all five debates and we got to talk about the flower patch kids. That was oh boy that might be my favorite interview just because who it is, but like I said I could tell stories about all the people that I've been able to connect with through ministry and and so forth.

Okay.

So and now I don't think my audience has really got that cleared up or I mean I have what my audience has. Um, do you have a certain denomination or denominational household you espouse to or.

Great question and maybe there's some confusion for like the whole meaning of purpose for a denomination. Like I just tell people look Theological triage meaning you got first-year gospel issues. Then you have secondary important issues, but not gospel so you can have fellowship in line of the gospel of grace.

And then you have tertiary issues that even come further down the line like right eschatology important but not so preeminent to you know, not Sever fellowship over or right things like that. So yeah, I'm Reformed Baptist and 12 -5 church, we're very Expositional in our preaching so we we tell people you got to be able to develop Context in order to draw truth out From the text itself and the only way to do that is kind of begin At the beginning and go all the way through but having in mind the whole counsel of God.

And so that's why I'm Reformed Baptist because I just see that being consistent with the whole scope of the scripture but like I said That's just where I've landed and like John MacArthur would be dispensational and not, you know Covenantal and his understanding of how God relates to his people and that's okay like I just want people to know I hold that distinction that I have with a very Ecumenical fist meaning if we can rally together on the right Jesus and how he told us to have our sins forgiven.

Which is by faith apart from works, man. There is some level of unity that we can have and we can do ministry together.

Well speaking of of your exposition of James 2. I watched that video like three times. I Loved it. I I came from before I became Reformed. I because I was remember that the trail I came through was Atheist to independent fundamentalist Baptist new independent fundamentalist Baptist then to independent and Reformed.

So I James 2 is a huge part of my studies on on On being justified before men and being justified before God and I think you nailed that on the head numerous times. And getting over to like James 2 17 and then I actually love expounding upon James 2 10 which explicitly expounds upon the difference between Being justified before man and being justified before God because James 2 10 is For whosoever tries to be justified by the law will be condemned in spite of that.

And so I love how you kept on emphasizing that verse as well. I'm in there. That was wonderful. I keep watching. Well, see I Don't want to brag. I don't like to be braggadocious. But I think us Baptists tend to be very very scriptural before fathers.

You know what I'm saying? We were like scripture first then fathers. I think there's some denominations who tend to run straight to like Augustine or straight to Irenaeus. Like let's let's just look at this first and then glean off of that, you know Clean from the Church Fathers before we can learn but um neat.

Okay, good.

Um, I had something in that real quick because I think I think you're right, especially the Reformed crowd. Like to me, there's a really good balance. There's a spectrum of Baptist out there. You got this the crazy Steven Anderson is that I understand?

Yeah. But then you have Southern Baptist who I love dearly right but very evangelical in the sense of hey. Let's just talk gospel and let's talk John 3 16, but you know doctrine. Let's just not get into that.

That was my experience. And so if somebody in your audience or mine says hey, we're Southern Baptist and we're very much, you know. Intentional with understanding context. I'm saying hey praise God. We have other sister churches.

We partner with that are SPC. So I'm over here saying praise God, but Reformed carries this idea of sola scriptura. And so I think this puts church history in its proper place. We don't say history is a hermeneutic almost like how the Roman Catholic Church have a three-tiered Authority, you know with tradition hope and the magisterium or scripture and magisterium.

Yeah, we're saying that the scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith. And so everything has to be tested by the the the ultimate precipient there. But we do acknowledge other authorities that Christ has been building his church for 2 ,000 years.

Therefore history is so important. A lot of these theological issues have been worked out. There's really nothing new under the Sun, but we're to be noble Bereans always testing church history to the scripture itself.

And so I'm just saying I've been so impressed with especially the Reformed Baptist world of saying oh, man, we are we are scripture first, but we are trusting and verifying when it comes to history and kind of the the the strong unity we've seen throughout church and I was gonna say kind of when it comes back to the Church of Christ.

It's the extreme opposite. It's kind of this my Bible and me under a tree. No creed. Yes. So those good Torah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a hundred percent right and we're saying there's a rich history for the past 2 ,000 years and what I figured out Wesley is what's cloaked in them not want to talk about church history is their own history with going back to the early.

1800s Alexander Campbell, it was it was always the 1800s where you get the the cults, you know, Joe's Witnesses Mormons.

Yeah.

Have you ever heard of the the cultish podcast? Oh, I'm dude. I've been obsessed with apologia for years. So, yeah.

Yeah, oh good. Have you seen their interview with me and Trey Fisher. You were on there? I did not know. No, I thought saying we didn't talk about earlier. I'm like, you know, he might not have might have missed that.

I've seen those. Michael Jones expiring philosophy has been on there before a couple and Stephen Bancar is the the new age guy, but.

Loved his interview because when they interviewed bank cars I went and bought his book immediately to read it and I disagree with with him a little bit but amazing. You know, I mean, right, but so I was on cultish last year and we were re-examining the Church of Christ as a cult.

Oh.

That's right. Oh.

You recognize the beard now, yeah.

Everybody on apology has a beard. I mean That's true, yeah, yeah, we all do but. Anyways, so who's on the who's on the show with you? Then was it was it just you?

No, it was me and my buddy the fishbone Trey Fisher. And so he they interviewed him first, I guess two years ago. And so he actually was in the Church Christ for 18 years. So lived it breathed it bought the t-shirt, but God saved him out of it.

Right and Trey is a smart individual and so when I was getting ready for my debate That was that a issue. Oh, I don't remember how we we interacted on a Facebook page Reformed presuppositional ism something like that and I was basically saying hey, I'm getting ready for debate.

Y 'all pray for me and he was like, hey, bub. Call me up. And so when we connected friends for life, and so the more we got so he he actually co-hosts a lot of my Interviews with me when we interview Church Christ exiles, right?

And so anyway, he's an awesome friend. But anyway, he's the one he knows Jeff Durbin and all them really well. Luke Pearson. And so he was like, hey, we're gonna do another cultist with with Jerry and Andrew.

He's like you definitely gotta come with me. I was like, I'm there.

Awesome awesome me. I did not know that I feel so terrible forgive me for for not knowing. Yeah, okay. Cool. Well, you already answered I guess one of the questions I had which which was a favorite argument for soul script.

Or but I mean you kind of got into that a little bit. Oh.

That's on that again real quick. It's your girlfriend. So I debated two Roman Catholics me and my friend.

Merrick.

Kaiser.

We'll see here. So he's a good Protestant friend of mine reformed. And so we debated is a two-on-two debate on Marlon's channel. The gospel truth. Peter D. Williams were on that channel. Oh, I have.

I have some of them. I have more debates than people. I've probably some of the most debates on there. So I was Marlon's first. We flew Marlon from California down to host my debate live and in person.

Oh, so I was his first live debate.

Yeah.

So I I debated on solar scriptura a while back and it was towards the very beginning of my apologetic. The apologetic dog ministry. So me my friend Merrick Kaiser. I think I remember his last name. You know, we debated Peter D. Williams who debated dr I'd about a decade ago on solar scriptura and Joe ish Meyer.

And.

So this was an incredible debate on solar scriptura and I just wanted to share this with you quickly since you had a question About solar scriptura a buddy Merrick was just like Jeremiah. I don't want us to come out with the same old same old arguments.

They're ready for us to talk about 2nd Peter 3 16 17. They're just they're just ready. And so I said, yeah, I actually I I may do a book plug.

Oh boy, it's gonna be it's gonna be scriptural owned by James White. No. Oh boy. Nope.

Anyway, I got it right here somewhere. Sure. Yeah, but I Told my buddy I was like, yeah, I want to come at solar scriptura from a different angle I said I want to make a transcendental argument for solar scriptura.

Now. I have to be consistent I want to develop that thought I just said and he said he was like Jeremiah. I trust you. Yes, I knew something has to be embedded in solar scriptura that's unique to the truth.

And so I just want to encourage our audience. I have a I have a video that I pulled out of my Closing statement or something, but it's the transcendental argument for solar scriptura. But what I really tried to paint the picture is John 17 17 when Jesus says your word is truth.

Yeah, I do think that's talking about the revealed will of God that that isn't scripturated because earlier in John chapter 17 You kind of have those indications that it's the written word early in John the scriptures cannot be broken and so forth.

And so yeah, I talked to my Greek Orthodox friends. They're like that's talking about Jesus. I'm like you have to develop that and even if it was the the God revealing or God's revelation Is the precipient of truth so that necessarily entails that which is in scripture it also anyway I was just saying that's a necessary foundation for truth.

And so what's unique to the Protestant position is its perspicuity the clearness of Scripture to from God to the Imago Dei and so that's unique to the Protestants and not the Roman Catholics that say hey You need our majesty.

You need our Pope. You need our church to tell you infallibly the interpretation of X amount of scriptures. Anyway, I got to do that debate and the book I was gonna plug is it's called that's funny. This book book actually broke my eschatology in the process.

So that's but it's called the canon of scripture a presuppositional study by.

I.

Think I got all the right. Yeah. Anyway, that was an incredible book. It just really made me think wow. You can go deeper in solo scripture and you know how the Roman Catholics say well scripture. Show me a Bible verse this show me scripture that says scripture alone.

It's self-defeating. They're like it has to give us a golden index essentially and this book points out The Old Testament predicted when God would speak and when God would not and basically you're just saying there's your golden index.

Anyway, I mean, that was good. Okay I guess I'd like to give an idea here because you you may often you may have heard during that debate I guess maybe several debates because I've done a lot of informal voice chat debates with with Roman Catholics and stuff on on Those who Torah.

And a point I usually get brought up to me is usually the the classical 2nd Thessalonians 215. You know hold fast all that to word-of-mouth and all that is written and they'll take the word-of-mouth part to be the you know the quote-unquote oral tradition of the Apostles and so forth and that being like the succession of the Apostles whatever.

And what you can do I think is a reputation is to give the context of the first time that Paul had actually visited Thessalonica. He's referring to the first letter. He had written to them when he visited it.

And when he's talking about the word-of-mouth, it's the gospel he preached to them while he was there at Thessalonica. That's that's a point. I've usually brought up whenever I've debated them as well in reference to like in Thessalonians like 215.

I think that's been one of my strongest arguments.

That's a super strong argument and I would just say because I do talk to Roman Catholics about this I'm just like just read the verse before it says to this. He called you through our Gospel. And you know it ties into them brothers to stand firm and hold fast to the traditions.