May 20, 2020 Show with Dick Guido on “Church vs. State: Not Intrinsically in Opposition”

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May 21, 2020

May 20, 2020 DICK GUIDO, elder of the Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville, AL & member of both the New York & Alabama Bar Association & the Bar of the Supreme Court, who will address: “CHURCH vs. STATE: Not Intrinsically in Opposition”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of May, 2020.
01:30: And this guest that we have on today is someone who I have known for many years, probably going back to the late 1980s when
01:39: I first befriended his pastor, his former pastor, Bill Shishko, who is certainly not a stranger to the
01:46: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience. The man who I am speaking of is Dick Guido, and although I've known him for many years, this is the first time he has been our guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:58: He's an elder now of the Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville, Alabama, and a member of both the
02:06: New York and Alabama Bar Association and the Bar of the Supreme Court. Today we are addressing church versus state, not intrinsically in opposition, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dick Guido.
02:22: Thank you so much, Chris. It's good to be here. I feel like it's an old home week for me, hearing from Dan Buttafuoco and Mike Gaydosh, some of your sponsors whom
02:34: I've known for many years, and Bill Shishko and Greg Reynolds, who have just been on your show, my former pastors, hearing from Dr.
02:45: David Innes, whom I have met several times, and then yesterday, Jonathan Schofield, who is a friend of mine and his dad for many years, so it's old times, old home week for me.
02:57: Great. I didn't even know that you were friends with my dear friend, Dan Buttafuoco, who has been a very important sponsor of this program for quite a long time, especially when we first began the program in 2005, and he's a dear friend.
03:17: In fact, he's going to be my guest, God willing, for a portion of the program on Friday, when we are having a special tribute to Ravi Zacharias, who, as you probably have heard, has gone home to be with the
03:33: Lord for eternity. Yes. Well, something that we do here on Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio when we have a first -time guest is, before we go into the main theme at hand, we like that guest to give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what providential circumstances our
03:57: Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.
04:03: So I'd like you to do that now as well. Well, Chris, I was raised as a
04:10: Roman Catholic. I was a practicing Catholic, and I thought
04:15: I knew my religion pretty well. But then I met my first wife,
04:23: Gail, who has, since 2013, has gone to be with the Lord. And she opened up the scriptures to me in a way that I had never appreciated before.
04:36: She was the first person, for example, that carried around with her a pocket
04:43: New Testament. And it wasn't only that she carried it around, but she knew what was in it.
04:49: And I would very frequently get into my detailed explanations of natural law from the
04:58: Roman Catholic faith, from Thomas Aquinas. And Gail was an
05:03: Alabamian and very quiet, and she would just listen. And then she would pull out that Bible.
05:10: And, well, Vic, I understand what you're saying, but the Apostle Paul says this.
05:16: And I was just amazed that anyone, A, would have a
05:22: Bible with them, and B, knew what was in it. And I just felt that this was the
05:30: Lord's leading. For a while, we went to a Roman Catholic mass and to a
05:37: Protestant church. And the teaching that I got in the church, the friendships that I had there in the
05:44: Lord's leading just convinced me that I needed to get my learning and my soul filled with the scriptures in a way that I never had before.
05:57: So to make a long story short, I did become a member of a
06:03: Protestant church down in Montgomery, Alabama, and since that time,
06:08: I have remained in the Orthodox Presbyterian church.
06:14: Well, praise God. And it is a fine denomination. I know quite a number of pastors who are my very dear friends from the
06:25: OPC. As you know, as I've already said, your pastor being one who
06:31: I've had the longest friendship with. And so how long has it been since you moved out of New York?
06:38: Because that was probably the last time I saw you. Yeah, I had a job location that took place in 1999.
06:50: And the job location took me to Toronto, Canada. So that is when we left
06:56: Franklin Square. We moved to Toronto for five years, and then
07:03: I retired and came back to Alabama, where Gail was from.
07:09: And we intended that that would be our retirement home, and that would be the place where we spent the rest of our lives.
07:16: But in the Lord's providence, it didn't turn out that way. Gail passed away from Alzheimer's disease in 2013.
07:25: Sorry to hear that. And prior to that, we had moved to Pennsylvania, where we could be near my daughter to help to provide care for Gail.
07:38: So Gail went to be with the Lord, and then I met a woman named
07:44: Daisy Stavish. And a year after Gail passed away, Daisy and I were married, and we moved to Raleigh, where we are right now.
07:56: Great, but I don't remember the exact number of years ago that you left New York. It probably would have been 1998.
08:04: Oh, okay, 1998. Very important year in a sad way for me.
08:10: That's when my father went home to be with the Lord at 78.
08:17: But tell us now how you got to become so interested in the realm of politics.
08:27: Well, as you know, I have made a career of being a lawyer.
08:34: And as you know, that profession naturally brings you into contact with politics.
08:44: My degree from the Air Force Academy is in political science, and I guess
08:52: I just naturally gravitated to it. Politics and history have been my natural interests, as far as I can remember.
09:05: Great. Well, today we have a topic that not only do
09:12: Democrats and Republicans and liberals and conservatives and Republicans and libertarians and the whole spectrum of political thought, but not only is there great disagreement and debate amongst the general population, but the more
09:35: I do this show, the longer I do this show, the more I realize how heated the disagreements can be, even in the body of Christ.
09:44: And not only merely in the body of Christ, but even in the same theological camps, even in the same denominations, and that would even include our theologically reformed camp that you and I share.
10:01: And this topic is no exception, the church versus state relationship.
10:08: And I understand that your main, or at least one of the main goals that you have today, is to clear up what is, in your opinion, is a misunderstanding of that relationship, where the state, the government, is viewed as a necessary evil, and that church and state are intrinsically in opposition to each other.
10:36: And you do not believe that, although I'm sure you believe that, especially in the 21st century, that church and state are very often in opposition to each other, when the state becomes an enemy of Christ, overtly especially.
10:55: But it's not an intrinsic position. So if you could just begin where I just left off.
11:03: Well, that's a very good capsule summary of what I would like to talk about today,
11:10: Chris. The COVID -19 crisis has really brought these issues to the fore.
11:19: On March 10th in North Carolina, where I live, Governor Roy Cooper declared a state of emergency because of the coronavirus.
11:30: Since then, North Carolina has issued five more executive orders, dealing both with the state and specifically with the churches, in addition to all other areas of life in North Carolina.
11:49: Since that time, since the five further executive orders, the orders have become progressively less restrictive, although not in every respect with regard to the churches.
12:02: And I really agreed with what you said, Chris, in terms of there being no intrinsic conflict between the church and the state, but that the church has to be ever vigilant for conflicts when they do arise, which, as you said, they certainly do.
12:20: I am, as I said, an elder in a church in Alabama, Providence Presbyterian Church.
12:30: And there, on March 13th, the Governor Kay Ivey declared a state of emergency, very similar to what had been done in North Carolina.
12:41: And like North Carolina, Alabama has issued six more executive orders with similar effects on the churches.
12:50: There have been some churches who have disregarded that order, specifically with regard to holding in -person worship services.
13:00: There have been some in some congregations that have demanded that their pastors and sessions not obey
13:07: Alabama's orders and hold in -person worship services, notwithstanding what the state has said.
13:17: Let me add that the overwhelming number of churches in both North Carolina and in Alabama have obeyed the respective orders of the civil magistrate.
13:29: But this has been a hot issue, as you have said. So my purpose in being here and discussing this is looking at this since day one of the process that has been started by these various state orders.
13:46: From day one, the churches have been faced with very serious questions. What are we going to do?
13:51: Are we going to comply or not? And if not, why not? What does the
13:57: Scripture say about these things? What are the factors that we have to take into account?
14:03: Who decides? And one of the principal points that I want to make is that this puts a premium on church decision -making and church decision -makers.
14:16: They must be informed decision -makers. They must not be, as 1
14:21: Timothy 3 reminds us, they must not be novices. They must be experienced men.
14:28: They must be men of wisdom in dealing with very, very difficult issues.
14:35: In the Presbyterian system, the church is organized based upon a morality of elders, so it's not one man making the decision, which
14:47: I think is a very important point as to how the churches are to address these questions. The decision -makers must take into account the whole of Scripture, including the
14:58: Confessions and the Catechism. And they finally must put all of that together with a perspective on our
15:08: Constitution and our laws. It's a fearful thing for pastors and elders to lead their churches into a decision to disobey the civil magistrate.
15:22: That, in short, is what I want to talk about. Yes, and of course, one of the difficulties involved in this is that we do, as American citizens, innately have freedoms and liberties to protest what the government may command us to do or restrict us from doing, especially if the government is requiring something of us that the
15:56: Constitution forbids. So we are not living in a dictatorship.
16:02: We are not living in a monarchy. We're living in a constitutional republic where something that might be totally off -limits for the...
16:16: not the citizen, but the... I'm trying to remember the word that they use for somebody that lives in a monarchy.
16:25: But somebody living in a monarchical country, they would not have the same freedoms that we would have that might even be expected of us.
16:36: Exactly so. Let me go into, if I may, a bit more...
16:43: I just remembered the name, the word I was scrambling for. Subjects. Right.
16:49: They're not citizens in a monarchy. They're subjects. Right. Let me go into, if I may, a bit more of a response to what you just said.
17:03: The protection of religious liberty in the United States of America is a protection that, as far as I can tell, is second to none with regard to every other country in the world.
17:20: The First Amendment to the Constitution says this. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
17:47: Now, I thought in preparing for this that I would run through a litany of cases and principles that illustrate this, but it gets far too long and takes up far too much time to do that.
18:03: But let me just summarize a few of the key protections that arise out of the
18:11: Free Exercise Clause as regards to the practice of religion in this country. And I would add that these have been very well summarized by the
18:22: Attorney General of the United States in a memo that he wrote in October of 2017.
18:28: It is addressed to the churches of this country to outline to them the rights and privileges that they have under the
18:36: First Amendment of the United States Constitution. And that in itself, I think, is very important, that you have a member of the government, the chief civil magistrate, in terms of the judiciary, writing a memorandum like this, alerting the churches to their rights and privileges.
18:57: Freedom of religion is a fundamental right of paramount importance. It is expressly protected by the
19:03: Constitution and federal law. The free exercise of religion includes the right to act or refrain from acting in accordance with one's religious beliefs.
19:15: Let me underline what comes next. The right to believe what one wants is absolute.
19:23: And there are very few things that lawyers will ever tell you are absolute. But in terms of First Amendment practice, under the
19:32: Free Exercise Clause, the right to believe what one wants is absolute.
19:39: What's not absolute is the right to practice those beliefs.
19:44: Because in some instances, limited instances, government may constitutionally intervene to limit the practice of those particular beliefs.
20:00: Freedom of religion extends to persons and to organizations. Americans do not give up their freedom of religion by choosing to participate in the marketplace or take of the public square or interact with government.
20:15: Government may not target religious individuals or entities through discriminatory enforcement of the laws.
20:23: Government may not officially express hostility to any one religion or religious organization.
20:30: Government may not interfere with the autonomy of religious organizations. Government may not second -guess the reasonableness or wisdom of a particular religious belief.
20:43: If government does attempt to burden the free exercise of religion, it must meet an exceptionally high standard to justify its actions.
20:54: And that's really important in light of what's going on in the COVID -19 situation.
20:59: Because there have been very recently, just in the past several weeks, a number of decisions by United States district courts that have stricken regulations, particularly in the state of North Carolina and one in Kentucky, that they have deemed to unduly burden the free exercise of religion by the churches.
21:26: In the marketplace, constitutional protections extend to discrimination on the basis of religious observance and belief.
21:36: These are the cases that deal with an employee being fired because of particular religious tenets that he may wish to observe.
21:45: Religious employers are entitled to employ only persons whose beliefs and conduct are consistent with employers' religious precepts.
21:54: So if a Christian school wants to hire a teacher, it has the right under the
22:03: Constitution to limit its hiring practice to a teacher who is in accord with its religious beliefs.
22:12: Government may not condition the receipt of a federal grant or contract on the relinquishment of a religious organization's religious principles or conduct.
22:22: Finally, government is restricted from interfering with the internal governance and ecclesiastical decisions of religious organizations.
22:32: So I go through that, and that's only a portion of the list that exists, Chris, to illustrate the fact that government is not intrinsically the enemy of religion.
22:43: That in this country, at any rate, there are very, very broad religious freedoms that are extended to the churches, and not only are extended, but are enforced by government.
22:56: Yes, in fact, are not at least some government employees, depending upon what they do, aren't they even referred to as ministers?
23:11: The specific individuals are not Christians themselves, but, for instance, policemen and the judicial system that wields the sword, that has the power when someone receives a fair trial, if they are found guilty, to even execute these individuals.
23:36: But the government is even viewed by God as a minister that is an aid to the church.
23:45: Well, Romans 13 refers to the civil magistrate as a minister for our good.
23:53: Right. And so, if you could, this is another thing that even guests that I have had on this program have disagreed over, but what are, or what is, the extent of the functions, duties, and responsibilities of the government, according to the scriptures?
24:24: Well, I would go to Romans 13, because I think that is about the best shorthand definition of what the civil magistrate is empowered to do.
24:41: It says this, Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
24:54: Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
25:03: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
25:12: Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same, for he is God's minister to you for good.
25:19: But if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is
25:26: God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
25:33: Therefore, you must be subject, and it talks about the obligation to pay tax for conscience' sake, and so forth.
25:41: But it's a broad mandate that is given to government. It is a mandate that is for our good, and it is a mandate that is to subject the one who practices evil to the vengeance of the state.
26:01: So I'm aware that there are those who make a very, very limited picture of the role of government.
26:13: Suffice it to say here, I do not share that view. Well, what you just quoted seems to reflect a fairly limited government.
26:25: However, it wasn't very intricate or lengthy or cumbersome with all kinds of burdens placed upon us as citizens.
26:37: Well, I would say this. I don't want to accept an invitation to be talking about the role of government insofar as social programs are concerned.
26:52: I think that as Christians, we are to examine the totality of the scriptures to examine those kinds of questions.
27:02: But I would say that, in my view, at any rate, the mandate that is given to government in the scriptures is a broad one, and it deals with every aspect of human society, and it therefore subjects human society to God's law, and applying as applicable to particular situations.
27:31: I guess that's about the best I can say in response to that. How close, in your opinion, is our constitution's description of the limits of government?
27:44: How close is it to what the scripture tells us about that very same issue? I don't think there's a necessary word -for -word correlation between the constitution and the scriptures.
27:57: They are two different things. They are designed for two different purposes.
28:05: But I do agree with one of the great commentators of the
28:11: English law, William Blackson, when he said that all modern constitutions, and I'm paraphrasing here, all modern constitutions derive their just authority from the word of God, and to the extent that they depart from the word of God, they are no constitution and ought not to be obeyed.
28:35: Now, we're going to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com,
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29:06: That email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.
29:13: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dick Guido after these messages from our sponsors.
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37:18: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is
37:24: Dick Guido. And Dick Guido is an elder at the
37:29: Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville, Alabama, which is a congregation in the
37:34: Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination. And he's a member of both the New York and Alabama Bar Association and the
37:41: Bar of the Supreme Court. Today we are addressing church versus state, not intrinsically in opposition.
37:49: If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
37:56: chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
38:06: USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
38:13: We have been getting some questions where the listeners are omitting their city and state and country of residence.
38:22: So please, if you could send your email back a second time with that information. We have a listener in Cary, North Carolina named
38:32: Scott. And Scott says, You asserted that the mandate given by God to government is broad but also qualified it greatly but also qualified it greatly with religious freedom exceptions and social welfare functions.
38:51: And he says in parentheses, I think. Is the mandate given really broad or is it more narrow, for example, to be a terror to evil, but broad within its limited mandate?
39:09: I can only take the Constitution and the Scriptures for what they say.
39:17: The biblical guideline, I believe, is a broad one.
39:22: It's not specific. And it therefore entitles and empowers the government to take those actions that defend those that are good and to take action against those who are the evil.
39:41: And it doesn't get into the particulars that the United States Constitution does. But because the one is so general and the one is more particular,
39:52: I don't think it necessarily means that there's a conflict between the two. On the contrary, I think they complement one another.
40:00: I'm not sure if that gets at Scott's question, but that would be my response. Well, Scott, you can send a clarifying email if you'd like to.
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40:36: And thank you for joining us today. We also have a question from your brother.
40:44: We have your brother Bob in Huntington, Long Island, New York. And he says, this is your brother
40:51: Bob. In trying to demarcate the boundaries of the Free Exercise Clause, is it as simple as saying that the government must always demonstrate a compelling state interest in enforcing its given restriction?
41:08: Well, I thank my brother for the question.
41:14: When you look at what the government may do in terms of religious organizations,
41:22: I think that the general rule is that so long as a governmental action is neutral and of general applicability, that regulation is constitutionally firm, even if it has an incidental effect upon the free exercise of religion.
41:47: If, however, you get into a situation where a perceived government regulation is perceived to be not neutral or specifically geared to a particular church, that's when you get the very, very high burden that the government must carry constitutionally in order to carry through with that restriction.
42:11: And that, I think, has been the evidence or the mark of some of the most recent cases that have come up with regard to governmental restrictions on holding in -person worship services.
42:29: Because they get into the issue of, is the government singling out the churches when it says there may not be in -person worship services, when at the same time opening up retail stores, opening up, in some cases, restaurants, anything that you would like to care to think about, opening them up to in -person patronage by people without restriction as to numbers.
43:06: There, in those kinds of situations, government has a very high burden to demonstrate why it has differentiated between the church and the market, for example.
43:19: And in two recent cases in Kentucky and North Carolina, the courts have held that the civil magistrate has not satisfied that burden.
43:27: So that's my answer to my brother Bob. Well, Bob, it turns out that you are a first -time questioner as well.
43:35: So give us your full mailing address in Huntington, Long Island, New York, so we can get to you also a free, new,
43:43: New American Standard Bible. And we thank the publishers once again for their generosity in providing these
43:50: Bibles for our first -time questioners, and also CVBBS .com
43:55: for shipping them out. Scott from Cary, North Carolina, has one more follow -up question.
44:03: Where does government receive authority to absolutely prohibit the taking of the sacraments by restrictions that make it impossible?
44:11: Not advising, but prohibition, even if meeting for worship is dangerous, where in Scripture is authority given to the magistrate?
44:23: Let me first address that from the standpoint of what has been done in terms of the restrictions that have been imposed upon the churches.
44:40: What has gone on in the churches is an exercise of what is called the police power.
44:48: The federal government has no police power. Only the states have that police power.
44:55: And that police power is very broadly interpreted in the court.
45:03: It is absolutely clear that the powers that are delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states.
45:12: And the police power entails seeing to the health, safety, and welfare of the public.
45:20: In terms of where that's derived from the Scripture, and I understand that to be Scott's question,
45:29: I think it's important that we look at, well, let me address it this way.
45:37: The fifth commandment that we honor mother and father deals with the obligation that church members have or that church leaders have in terms of protecting those that are under their authority.
45:56: And that authority is very plainly indicated in the fifth commandment, and I'm trying to find here where I have the…
46:09: While you're looking it up, I'm going to just repeat our e -mail address again. If anybody would like to join us on the air as well with your own question for Dick Guido, our e -mail address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
46:23: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
46:32: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question is a personal or private matter. What is the fifth commandment?
46:41: The fifth commandment is, Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long upon the land which the
46:47: Lord hath given thee. This comes, by the way, from the Westminster Confession of Faith.
46:54: Who are meant by mother and father in the fifth commandment? Included are especially those as by God's ordinance are over us in place of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth.
47:10: What are the sins of what is required of superiors toward their inferiors?
47:16: It is required of superiors according to that power that they receive from God to protect them and provide for them all things necessary for soul and body.
47:29: So, in looking at what the scriptures... Maybe you could repeat that question again,
47:37: Chris. I need it repeated. Is this Scott's second question?
47:47: Was this Scott's second question? It was. Okay. Let's see,
47:53: I have to find it. Let's see, where are you,
47:59: Scott? I just had you a second ago. Oh, here it is. Where does government receive authority to absolutely prohibit the taking of the sacraments by restrictions that make it impossible?
48:11: Not advising, but prohibition. Even if meeting for worship is dangerous, where in scripture is authority given to the magistrate?
48:22: I think we get back to our question that we addressed before as to how broadly it is that we interpret
48:30: Romans 13. I interpret Romans 13 perhaps more broadly than Scott does, and it gets to the point that the civil magistrate may take those actions that are, in his view, necessary to protect
48:49: God's people, to protect his people. Even in certain instances if that impinges upon their free exercise rights.
48:57: I fully understand that this is a matter that's under hot debate at this particular time.
49:06: I wish I could point out to you a specific proof text from the scripture, but I think generally speaking in terms of the power that is given to the civil magistrate in Romans 13, that kind of power is contained in there.
49:21: Well, thanks again, Scott. And we now have another listener from Cary, North Carolina, Henry.
49:31: And Henry says, Hi Chris, I have to take exception to the comment that other countries and monarchies especially do not have the freedoms we enjoy in the
49:43: United States. The Netherlands is a monarchy and protects its cities protections for both freedom of religion as well as expression.
49:52: This was in fact exemplified in New Amsterdam or what is now New York several hundred years ago.
49:59: Well, I appreciate that and I think, and I could be wrong, perhaps my guest
50:07: Dick Guido knows better than I do. In fact, I know he does. But I'm basically speaking about all the freedoms of United States citizens, at least those that we still have that we may lose in the not so distant future, like the
50:28: Second Amendment, for instance. I know that there are many countries overseas that have much stricter gun control laws.
50:39: And in fact, I have even had disagreements with brethren who believe exactly as I do theologically, in the
50:49: UK especially, who are very opposed to the American enthusiasm over the
50:56: Second Amendment. They like to have the government in control over those things.
51:04: But I don't know enough about foreign politics or politics in general to know whether or not
51:12: I truly overstepped the bounds of reality in my statement. And I do know that there are countries that for years have permitted activities that Christians would consider damnable and evil, that we do not have the freedom or liberty to partake in here without some kind of legal penalty if we're caught, such as prostitution and until recently the sale and use of marijuana and some other drugs.
51:46: But do you have anything to say about that? Did I overstep the bounds of reality in my statement about other countries and monarchies and so on?
51:56: I don't think so, Chris. What I would say is that I know of no other country that has more liberal, more broad protections of religion than the
52:06: United States has. Well, guess what, Henry? Even though you disagreed with me, you're getting, if you want one, a free
52:16: New American Standard Bible because you are also a first -time questioner. So please make sure you send me your complete mailing address there in Cary, North Carolina.
52:28: Let's see. Well, we have to go to our midway break. It's already that time. When we come back,
52:34: I'll let you speak for a while before we take any additional listener questions, Dick. All right.
52:41: But this is a longer than normal break, folks, so please be patient with us because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
52:48: FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format, both in the morning drive and in the evening, they require of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they, in accordance with FCC regulations, have to air their own public service announcements and other local things to localize
53:09: Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials and we would urge you to make best use of this time, this longer than normal break, to write down as much of the information provided by as many of our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which in turn will hopefully keep those advertisers sponsoring our show.
53:39: If they are happy with the results of their advertising, they're more than likely going to do that. And we require, we need, we depend upon the advertisers' financial support in order to exist as a program.
53:52: So I know that some people complain about the frequency of ads, but we cannot exist on donations alone.
53:59: We just don't make enough in donations to survive. So please patronize our advertisers as much as you can, and also write down questions for Dick Guido on Church vs.
54:10: State, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
54:16: We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine
54:28: Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.
54:43: The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the
54:54: Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.
55:00: Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the
55:12: Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection, along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.
55:24: Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century
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55:58: This is Andrew Rappaport with Striving for Eternity Ministries. Are you cooped up at home?
56:04: Are you just desiring to use your time wisely? Well, Justin Peters and I got together and realized that our calendars were cleared because of COVID -19.
56:13: So we decided we would get together and do our Snatch Them from the Flames seminar, home edition.
56:21: That's right, a free seminar, May 30th from 10 a .m. to 6 p .m.
56:27: Eastern Time. We're going to give you a free seminar that you can take at home. We're going to cover the topics of the sufficiency of Scripture, interpreting
56:36: Scripture, discerning false teachers, identifying false teachers, and then a Q &A.
56:41: Get all the details at strivingforeternity .org, and there you can go to the online events to register before May 30th.
56:51: And we'll see you there online in your home. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
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58:29: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
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01:12:27: and always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before we return to our guest today,
01:12:35: Dick Guido. Dick Guido, who is talking about the church versus state not intrinsically in opposition.
01:12:44: He's an elder at the Providence Presbyterian Church OPC in Huntsville, Alabama and member of both the
01:12:52: New York and Alabama Bar Association and the Bar of the Supreme Court. Before we return to that conversation, we just have a couple of important announcements to make.
01:13:01: First of all, we have Rosaria Butterfield returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio tomorrow, 4 -6 p .m.
01:13:10: Eastern. She's going to be talking about her book The Gospel Comes with a
01:13:15: House Key. So, I hope that you enjoy that conversation with Rosaria.
01:13:20: She is always a delight to have on this program. And then on Friday, we are right in the process right now of working on developing a tribute to the late
01:13:33: Ravi Zacharias. Many of you are likely aware that just yesterday
01:13:41: Ravi went home to be with the Lord for eternity as a result of his bout with cancer.
01:13:49: So, please tune in Friday. I'm sure we'll have something prepared for you that will be a blessing to you and to those who love the ministry of Ravi Zacharias and dearly miss him already.
01:14:05: What a unique and talented brother. I had quite a number of theological differences with Ravi.
01:14:12: He was not a Calvinist. But at the same time, I typically found myself utterly fascinated by him and learned from him greatly.
01:14:20: And he wrote one of the most wonderful commendations for this radio program, Iron Sharpens Iron. After I interviewed him at one point years ago when we were still broadcasting out of Long Island, New York on WNYG and WGBV in Babylon, Long Island.
01:14:37: In fact, I remember my co -host during that interview was Dan Buttafuoco, whose ads you've been hearing.
01:14:44: Dan Buttafuoco, attorney at law. Keep those two interviews in mind.
01:14:50: We've got every other day in May booked as well with fascinating guests.
01:14:55: So try to tune in every day. Also folks, I dislike doing this but it's something that I have to do because we are in urgent need.
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01:16:12: Sunday and they're waiting to return to start giving again, or perhaps many of the congregants have lost their jobs.
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01:16:31: Those two things are commands of Scripture. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of Scripture, but if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, then please go to ironsharpensironradio .com
01:16:45: click support, and then click click to donate now. Again, that is if you have been blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands of providing for church and family.
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01:18:00: I thank God for you, for your generosity and your demonstration to me about how much you love and appreciate and value this show.
01:18:11: It means more to me than you'll ever know this side of glory. Once again, I want to thank a woman who
01:18:17: I've just become acquainted with very recently, who I've never heard from before, in Texas who broke all donation records not long ago with a monumental check that she sent in.
01:18:29: I thank you from the very depths of my heart again. And another thing that I have to remind you about, folks, if you are not a member of a local
01:18:37: Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:18:47: and I may be able to help you find a church because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world.
01:18:54: I have already helped many people find churches in our audience when they did not even know that there were biblically solid churches not far from where they live.
01:19:05: And they have either joined these churches or they have recommended them to loved ones or they have visited them on vacation.
01:19:13: So, please, rectify the situation. Don't be in disobedience to God. Please find a church and prayerfully look for one and follow some of my suggestions if you can't come up with any on your own.
01:19:29: And I would love to hear from you if you do visit one of these churches I recommend. Let me know how everything is going.
01:19:36: So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
01:19:42: That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dick Guido at chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:19:49: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
01:19:58: USA. And, Dick, if you could, I want you to make sure that for a few minutes you, in detail, give our listeners information that you really want to be a part of this discussion.
01:20:13: Before we move on to any listener questions, I want what you intended to bring to us today obviously to be a major part of the discussion.
01:20:23: So, if you could, tell us more about what's on your mind and what you believe firmly in regard to this subject of church vs.
01:20:31: state. Thank you very much, Chris. I can only say that your show is aptly named
01:20:38: Iron vs. Iron. I'm sitting here licking my wounds, but ... That's great.
01:20:46: That's what it's for. I do want to say that I'm not here to try to persuade anybody of my particular views or to try to dissuade others from disagreeing with those who might not share my views.
01:21:05: What I'm here to do is to provide what I think is a useful biblical framework for analysis in addressing these questions that the coronavirus has addressed to the churches and to the civil magistrate.
01:21:24: Um... I think that the Scripture establishes a useful spectrum as a guide for God's people to evaluate how they should react in situations like this.
01:21:42: At the one end of the spectrum is Romans 13. Romans 13 .1.
01:21:49: Let every soul be subject to the government authorities. 1 Peter 2 says, Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the
01:21:56: Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme or to governors as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
01:22:09: Titus 3 says, Remind your flock to be subject to rulers and authorities.
01:22:14: So that's one end of the spectrum. That is basically the duty for Christians to obey the powers that be.
01:22:22: But there's another end to the spectrum that has to be taken into account.
01:22:28: It has to be taken into account because we as Christians are are bidden to apply the whole counsel of God to our decision making in this life.
01:22:37: The other end of the spectrum has to do with the Christian's duty to obey God rather than men.
01:22:44: Acts 5 .26 through 29 says this, And the high priest asked them,
01:22:50: Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled
01:22:57: Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring this man's blood on us. But Peter and the other apostles answered and said,
01:23:06: We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 4 .18
01:23:13: is similar to this account. So the council called Peter and John and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
01:23:23: But Peter and John answered and said to them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.
01:23:31: But we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. So that's the other end of the spectrum.
01:23:39: We need to obey God rather than men. One way of looking at that I suppose is to say that that's conflicting.
01:23:51: Romans 13 conflicts with Acts 5 .26. My answer to that is that Scripture does not contradict itself.
01:24:02: Scripture has established these parameters to enable us as Christians to look at where we are on that spectrum between obeying the civil magistrate and the other spectrum in terms of obeying
01:24:19: God rather than men and figure out where we are. And one of the things that I hope to do when
01:24:27: I came on today is just look at a list of possible actions by the civil magistrate and put them on that spectrum and determine where is the tipping point where the churches may transition from honoring the powers that be and transitioning to obeying
01:24:51: God and not the civil magistrate. And if you look at what's going on in the
01:24:57: COVID crisis right now, there are a couple of points that I think need to be put on that spectrum.
01:25:04: First of all you have generally applicable and temporary restrictions on public in -person gatherings.
01:25:12: I think that's what we're witnessing now. But there have been instances of generally applicable and more extended restrictions on public in -person gatherings and worship.
01:25:25: You have instances where both ministers and the ministry are deemed not essential.
01:25:33: That's another step in this spectrum. You have another step where you have generally applicable but more extended restrictions which have particular impact upon churches and churches alone.
01:25:47: For example there was a regulation in Montecini County, California that prohibited singing in virtual services.
01:25:55: The special problem there was because the state is regulating worship. In Greenville, Mississippi and also in Louisville, Kentucky, police began to take license plate numbers on Sunday of cars in church parking lots when they didn't do that in Walmart and Costco parking lots.
01:26:14: So that's a further extension on this spectrum. Here's another one that goes even further and this is true from history.
01:26:24: You have a civil magistrate that expels non -conforming ministers from the state church and forbids them from living within five miles of their former parishes.
01:26:39: This is known as the Five Mile Act in the 1665. It was part of the restoration of Charles II after the
01:26:47: English Civil War. In that same time period you have the
01:26:52: Conventicles Act which forbade religious assemblies of more than five people other than an immediate family outside of the church of England.
01:27:03: There's no time restriction on that. It is an outright prohibition. So we're moving from one end of that spectrum from Romans 13 and getting closer to an
01:27:16: Acts 529 situation. Let's extend it even further.
01:27:22: Let's extend it to National Socialist Germany in the 1930s. The Nazi platform said this,
01:27:32: We demand the freedom of all religious confessions in the state in so far as they do not jeopardize the state's existence or conflict with the manners and moral sentiments of the
01:27:46: Germanic race. The Germanic race combats
01:27:52: Jewish materialistic spirit at home and abroad and is convinced that the permanent recovery of our people can only be achieved from within on the basis of the common good before the individual good.
01:28:07: From that beginning in 1933 you have the Führer principle that the leader is to be obeyed both as the political and spiritual head of the state.
01:28:19: Pastors are asked to take a personal oath of loyalty to the Führer who is the head of the state and the head of the church in building a greater
01:28:27: Germany. You have the imposition of what was called the Aryan Paragraph.
01:28:33: The Aryan Paragraph essentially said that ministers of Jewish descent could no longer be part of the
01:28:40: German church. They would instead be placed in a separate Jewish Christian church.
01:28:47: Part of the regulation said that the Old Testament no longer could be considered part of the canon of scripture.
01:28:54: German parents were discouraged from giving their children Hebrew names. The scriptures were molded to fit a new religion conforming to a new government.
01:29:08: You talk about restrictions on the exercise of religion, consider this. Jesus Christ is an
01:29:14: Aryan Christ. He was not a Jew. He in fact detested the Jews. In one story, according to these regulations, his father was a
01:29:23: Roman soldier. His message of meekness and turning the other cheek exhibited feminine weakness.
01:29:33: The Christian's recitation in this German church is a recitation of his need for grace that is unmanly and cowardly.
01:29:42: We need to replace a reliance upon God who forgives sin with a self -reliant struggle to rid ourselves of those who would pollute our culture and our character.
01:29:55: I could go on and on. There are many, many more of these instances of moving on this spectrum in the
01:30:02: National Socialist State from obeying the civil magistrate to imposing those conditions which based upon Acts 5 .29
01:30:12: not only permit, but require a Christian to take action against the civil magistrate.
01:30:20: So my essential plea in reciting all this is that we as Christians need to examine the totality of Scripture from Romans 13 to Acts 5 .29.
01:30:37: Look at the circumstances in which we are engaged and then make a determination as to whether in a particular circumstance it's appropriate to engage in civil disobedience.
01:30:51: So if there are questions or Chris you would like to comment on that, I'll turn it over to you. Well, since we have so many of them,
01:30:58: I figure I'll go to some listener questions because I don't want to run out of time before they have their voices heard figuratively since I'll be reading their questions.
01:31:13: We have let's see somebody with a very unusual first name
01:31:21: Dare let's see here where was I Dare in Canoville, Pennsylvania, I believe that is the way that it's pronounced, but I could be wrong, c -o -n -n -e -a -u t -v -i -l -l -e and Dare says good afternoon my question is this instead of focusing on striving and shouting for our own rights, wouldn't churches be more in keeping with the gospel mandate to exercise grace in our communities and follow
01:31:59: Jesus' teaching in Matthew chapter 5 38 -41 to show good will and good faith to our fellow citizens even though our own rights may be temporarily trampled
01:32:12: I have copied the passage below you have heard it you have heard that it was said eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but I tell you do not resist an evil person, if anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to them the other cheek also, and if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt hand over your coat as well, if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles any response to Dare?
01:32:43: well first of all, I know who Dare is she's my daughter and she lives in Carnegieville, Pennsylvania I hope she gets a
01:32:53: Bible out of this yes she does, she's a first time questioner I'm sure she does ok, great and this is not a setup,
01:33:01: Chris I think that what Dare has asked gets into a very important part of what
01:33:10: I wanted to discuss today and that is certain prudential, what
01:33:16: I've called prudential considerations in addressing the COVID -19 situation my first point is that Christians in considering issues like this we have to be broad and nuanced in our approach we must take in the whole counsel of God it must be a
01:33:38: Berean approach taking into account whether these things are so that we're dealing with both in terms of Scripture and what the civil magistrate has said we must be as exegetical and hermeneutical as we are prudential and ethical in response to Dare's question
01:34:02: I would say that Christian living and governance are an art not a science we have to take into account as Christians that there is a tension on that spectrum between Romans 13 and Acts 5 29 that's a tension which church leaders and those within the congregation are called upon to examine in a gentle and a nuanced sense to recognize that there are degrees of difficulties so to speak in answering these questions that our choices are often between good and good and bad and bad more often than they are between good and evil if there were if the issues were simply between good and evil it would be easy but the questions that we are addressed with now are good and good questions in terms of prudence is a simple love of neighbor
01:35:07: I like what Albert Moeller who is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary said about this
01:35:14: Christians have a duty of love of neighbor to comply with general policies that attempt to abate the spread of the coronavirus indeed governments are justified in ruling that all mass assemblies ought to cease for a definable period of time that is rational government policy if however policies target or single out churches then it becomes an entirely different issue it is an issue of an unconstitutional violation of religious liberty careful
01:35:50: Christian and constitutional thinking are essential to thread the needle rightly especially in the midst of a pandemic and Chris and in answer to Dare that's all
01:36:02: I'm trying to do when I talk about this spectrum that we ought to consider in terms of answering these very difficult issues well thank you
01:36:14: Dare and as you heard me respond to your dad you do win a new new
01:36:21: American Standard Bible since you're a first time questioner so please make sure you give us your full mailing address there in Connoteville Pennsylvania by the way am
01:36:32: I pronouncing that right Connoteville Pennsylvania say that again Connoteville Pennsylvania okay
01:36:41: I've never heard of the city before but I'm glad to make its acquaintance and we have
01:36:47: Susan Margaret in Dauphin County Pennsylvania who says is a
01:36:55: Christian in sin when they disobey an order of the government when it is within our constitutional liberties guaranteed to us to disobey a certain command that might be attempted to be thrust upon us even if this order does not involve actual violation of the
01:37:23: Bible in a sinful way but it's just an unconstitutional command well
01:37:30: I think that gets back to my spectrum type of analysis there comes a point when what the civil magistrate has commanded so far departs from the word of God and requires you to disobey what
01:37:50: God commands that you reach a point where yes
01:37:55: I think it can be considered sinful to obey a magistrate a command of a civil magistrate like that but I would also say that in my way of thinking at any rate
01:38:10: I think that's a comparatively rare type of an occurrence just as I've transitioned from the temporary orders that we for example see in Alabama and North Carolina about assembling publicly for worship to what went on in Nazi Germany where you completely subvert the gospel
01:38:32: I think the other end of the spectrum where we are commanded to obey
01:38:39: God rather than man I think they are relatively rare but they are certainly there and I applaud the question for the questioner for raising that issue because it's an important one.
01:38:56: Thank you Susan Margaret and we have John in Bangor, Maine who says
01:39:03: I don't mean to be insulting but with all due respect to your daughter
01:39:09: I think that we are doing good to our fellow citizens and fellow mankind when we fight against unjust laws because these unjust laws not only affect us and our own families and our own churches but they affect others who are even in weaker positions than we are for instance it may come eventually that we have mandatory abortions thrust upon us and enforced on our own homes when we exceed a certain number of children just like they have done in China people look at you with a crazed look on their face thinking that you're out of your mind for even bringing something like that up in this country where we enjoy so much freedom but I think that we take our freedoms for granted you never know what this country will be like in 5 to 10 to 20 years do you have any response to that?
01:40:10: I agree with the sense of the question the essence that I think we have to consider though is what do you mean when you react to a law like that or a policy like that are you talking about engaging in for example filing a lawsuit to overturn a legislative act like that or are you talking about storming an abortion facility and burning it down I think that's the essence of what we're talking about here
01:40:49: I agree with the questioner in terms of the
01:40:54: Christian's duty to engage and to benefit the whole of society by going after those kinds of regulations but it's the way that we do that that I think is critical in addressing this we have to go to our final break right now if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own please make sure you send it in as quickly as possible because we are running out of time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com and give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:41:34: USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter and don't go away we'll be right back after these messages music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music
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01:46:40: This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:46:47: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.
01:46:56: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
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01:47:15: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:47:28: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
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01:47:46: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
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01:52:27: Welcome back, this is the final segment of today's interview with Dick Dido.
01:52:33: I already know for certain that I would love to have Dick return to the program in the near future to continue this conversation, and if you want to send us an email and try to get on the air with a question today, we'll see if we can squeeze you in at chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:52:51: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Now my memory's getting a little fuzzy since we've had so many listeners write in.
01:53:03: Did I yet read to you Darren's question from Huntsville, Alabama?
01:53:09: No, you did not. Okay, Darren in Huntsville, Alabama says, Romans chapter 13, verse 4, says,
01:53:16: The civil authority is God's servant for your good. Does that good include protection of citizens from a health threat?
01:53:27: I think very much so, and I think that when you look at what we discussed about the fifth commandment, it is the duty of the civil magistrate, as well as the duty of church leaders, to see to the public health of the faithful.
01:53:48: So yes, you may think that that's an over -broad reading of what is required, but I do think that's the case.
01:53:58: Great and thank you very much Darren, since you're a first -time questioner, you will also receive a free
01:54:04: New American Standard Bible, so make sure you give me your mailing address there in Alabama.
01:54:10: Well, I'd like you to have about three minutes uninterrupted right now, so you can summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.
01:54:21: Well, thank you so much Chris. I guess I would summarize to where we began.
01:54:29: In restricting in -person worship services by the churches, the civil magistrate to this point, and I emphasize to this point, those actions have been reasonably limited in scope and duration.
01:54:45: The churches have not been closed. Worship has not been prohibited. Those restrictions have been around for only about three months, and they are already being lifted in many parts of the country.
01:54:59: They are an appropriate exercise, therefore, in my view, by the civil magistrate of his
01:55:05: God -given responsibilities to protect public health and welfare. I think we need to remember that close to 96 ,000 people have died in this country because of the coronavirus, and it has inflicted just incalculable damage economically on our country.
01:55:25: I would add that, in my view, these actions do not offend the constitutional rights of the churches under the
01:55:32: Free Exercise Clause. Worship is, in fact, encouraged by the civil magistrate under these regulations, where people do not come together to risk the spread of the contagion.
01:55:44: There has been no limit, no attempt, I should say, by the civil magistrate to limit the churches in their rights to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and as I pointed out, a few churches have already succeeded in challenging civil magistrate regulations in court.
01:56:06: I do not believe that the actions that the civil magistrate has taken thus far rise to the level of triggering the
01:56:14: Christian's responsibility to obey God rather than men. In other words, going back to the spectrum that I tried to establish, what the state has done is far closer to a
01:56:27: Romans 13 situation than it is to an Acts 529 situation.
01:56:35: So the churches, therefore, in my view, have been biblically warranted in obeying the orders of the civil magistrate in response to the pandemic.
01:56:48: Well, we do have time for one more question if you give a brief answer, and this is from Ashley in Madison, Alabama.
01:56:56: I would like to hear Mr. Guido discuss how Christians should treat each other when we disagree about these issues.
01:57:04: It seems to me that many feel so strongly one way or the other that this has become a Romans 14 situation where we need to be careful to care about one another more than we do about being right, especially as we begin to meet together again with some wearing masks and some proclaiming that we should never have been quarantined at all.
01:57:26: Well, let me take a quick stab at that. It's important, I think, for us to reflect that Romans 13 ends with the language, for conscience's sake, we are to obey the magistrate for conscience's sake.
01:57:41: And that literally means with knowledge, it is the knowledge that God places in our souls of what we have done is right or wrong.
01:57:49: There are several conscience questions that arise out of this, and I think it responds to Ashley's question.
01:58:00: If you as a church leader are contemplating and acting against the civil magistrate, are you acting as a leader, may you ethically burden their consciences to engage in disobedience of the government?
01:58:17: With regard to your congregation, if I for myself decide that I must, for the sake of the gospel, expose myself to illness and the sanction of the civil magistrate, may
01:58:27: I ethically expose my people to those things? What will I say to the family member of my flock who dies from the coronavirus because I, as his pastor, required him, on pain of church discipline, to disobey the law?
01:58:41: Now, that's very, very fast, and I know there's a lot in there in response to Ashley's question, but those,
01:58:48: I think, are some of the ethical conscience issues that she raised in her question. Well, Ashley, get me your mailing address because you've won a
01:58:56: New American Standard Bible as well. I want to thank you so much, Dick, and I look forward to you being on the program again.
01:59:02: Please hold on so I can give you a proper goodbye off the air, and I want to make sure our listeners have your website at Providence Presbyterian Church, where you serve as an elder in Huntsville, Alabama.
01:59:16: That's ProvidenceHuntsville .com, ProvidenceHuntsville .com. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater