June 11, 2020 Show with Steven Warhurst on “Storytelling for Children That Provokes Deep Biblical Thought (Fluff Should Never Be Enough–Not Even For Kids)”

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June 12, 2020

June 11, 2020 STEVEN WARHURST, author of “PYGO the FREE: A Cautionary Tale”, who will address: “STORYTELLING for CHILDREN That PROVOKES DEEP BIBLICAL THOUGHT (Fluff Should Never Be Enough–Not Even For Kids!)”

00:05: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
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00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is
01:20: Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of June, 2020.
01:29: So delighted to have as a very first time guest today, Stephen Warhurst.
01:35: He is the author of Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale, which is an illustrated book for children.
01:42: And we are going to be addressing the major theme, storytelling for children that provokes deep biblical thought.
01:50: Fluff should never be enough, not even for kids. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen Warhurst.
02:00: Thank you. Glad to be here. And let me give our email address out right away for those of our listeners that may want to ask questions of their own.
02:10: It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
02:19: Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
02:26: USA. And please only remain anonymous. Your question involves a personal and private matter.
02:33: Well, before we go into your book, Pygo the Free, and also storytelling for children that provokes deep biblical thought, what we typically do on this program when we have a first time guest is we get a summary of their salvation testimony, giving an idea of what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our
02:58: Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Yes, I would love to tell the story.
03:08: It's funny how you can tell your testimony in about a dozen different ways because God was working in so many different ways to draw me to himself through different experiences with different people, seemingly unconnected, but they were actually all orchestrated by Lord Jesus to draw me to himself.
03:33: So I grew up in a home where we would have said we were Christians and believed we were
03:40: Christians. We never attended church. We didn't read the Bible.
03:45: We didn't even pray. But the mindset of our thinking was probably just, well, we're
03:52: Americans. We're Christians. We know we're not Muslims, and we're not atheists, and we're not
03:58: Jews. So we must be Christians. That was the setting of the home.
04:04: We did attend church for about a year when I was in my middle school years, and then
04:09: I don't know, I don't remember all the details of why we left. It was a very liberal
04:14: Methodist church, and then in high school, I got into trouble in lots of ways and was in a motel room, one,
04:27: I guess, I think it was in Florida. We had gone off to the beach in Florida, and I stole the
04:33: Bible out of the motel room. It was one of those Good News New Testaments, and I didn't know if I was supposed to take it or not.
04:42: They probably didn't care. But I took the Bible and started reading it.
04:48: I was disturbed by some of the things I read there and troubled about the way
04:55: I was living, and I didn't go back to it for a while. I went to college at West Georgia College.
05:03: It's now University of West Georgia. And while I was there, I was living the dream of having no parental guidance.
05:12: Oversight and lots of free time and thought that that was going to bring me great joy, and it turned out it did not.
05:23: So at that time, I don't ever remember having met an outspoken
05:30: Christian my whole life. I'm sure I had been around Christians, but at the time,
05:35: I had not really met anybody who was outspoken or would witness to people, and no one had witnessed to me.
05:45: But at that time, my junior year in college, it seems like it came out of everywhere. They were coming at me.
05:52: I remember I was on the beach. This is sort of a goofy story, but I had been misbehaving on the beach and lost my car.
06:02: I didn't remember where my car was. I got separated from my friends. You can imagine why that would be.
06:10: And I was sitting on a bench, hoping this was before cell phones and things like that, being able to contact people.
06:18: I was sitting on a bench watching the cars go by, hoping that my car would go by and my friends would be driving it.
06:27: And while I was sitting there, this man walked up to me and started talking to me about Christ.
06:33: I just sat down right next to me, shared the gospel with me, and I eventually did find my car and my friends and returned home.
06:42: But that was just out of the blue, it seemed to me. Returned to school, and the Lord had orchestrated some young men in my dorm to come to my dorm who were having a
06:54: Bible study, an evangelistic Bible study. And they spotted me carrying a
07:01: Bible. Now, you may say, well, why were you carrying a Bible? And that's a good question.
07:07: Why was I carrying a Bible? Because I'm not a Christian. I was taking a class in religion at the college, which was by no means really
07:18: Christian or sympathetic. Christian, as you know, is state university. The religion class is not going to be sympathetic, usually, to Christianity.
07:27: And my project for the class, for my paper, was going to be on the
07:33: Jehovah's Witnesses. And so I had met the Jehovah's Witnesses, gone down to the
07:38: Kingdom Hall, and they gave me a New World Translation. And that's what I happened to be carrying around, which is questionable whether that's a
07:46: Bible or not. But I was carrying it, and the guy spotted me. He says, hey, you read the Bible? Why don't you come to our
07:52: Bible study? I said, sure. And he told me the time and everything.
07:57: And some guys on the hall, I actually invited them. So here I am, the unbeliever, studying
08:05: Jehovah's Witnesses. And I invite all the guys on the hall to come to the
08:11: Bible study. Several came. And so I was already an evangelist and didn't even know it.
08:17: But in God's kindness, he... Well, just another side issue there.
08:23: One of the guys I invited was really hostile, and he argued the whole time with the Bible study leader, which made me really uncomfortable, since I'd invited him.
08:32: Lord ended up converting him later, by the way. But the Spirit was working in our dorm on different young men, and several of us came to Christ through that Bible study and through our own reading, reading to the
08:48: Gospel of Matthew, the Lord convicted me of sin. And I realized really for the first time that God's ways were the best ways.
09:01: And I didn't think that before. I had not ever thought that way. I thought that God's ways were stifling, destructive, bad.
09:12: And God changed my heart. And so when I read the Sermon on the Mount, I concluded...
09:19: I remember thinking that if people would live as Jesus commands here, it would be a wonderful world.
09:27: And that's one way to tell my testimony. There are other ways to do it. Because like I said, there were lots of people speaking to me from different places and different times.
09:36: But that's the one version of how the Lord drew me to Himself. And I immediately got involved in the campus ministry, which these men were working with.
09:47: And then I went to a Presbyterian church in town, church plant that was not yet established.
09:53: There was a PCA church plant in town, so I started attending there. And that's where it all began.
10:03: Now, how did you start to have an interest in writing and perhaps even specifically writing for children?
10:14: Well, that came much later. I went to seminary after that. I wasn't planning to be a pastor, but I knew
10:22: I needed to study the Bible and had a lot to figure out. Because when the pastor at the church that I attended started talking about Paul, I didn't know who he was talking about.
10:34: And things like that. So I said, I need to go study the Bible. And so I saw an advertisement in a magazine for a
10:41: Reformed Theological Seminary. And R .C. Spole was teaching there at the time. And I had just been given one of his books, which
10:49: I loved. And I said, well, I'll go study with him. And so I went to RTS in Orlando.
10:54: And after that, I taught for years in Christian schools,
11:00: Christian classical schools. I have visited the campus there. Oh, at RTS?
11:06: Yeah, I went to an event that my friend Dr. James R. White was involved in.
11:11: He was having a dialogue with a Muslim. Oh, wow. Yes. Yes.
11:18: There are several Muslims in Orlando. They have a mosque there that's pretty active. Yeah.
11:27: So from there, I met my wife. And we went, like I said, started teaching
11:33: Christian classical schools. So I've been in education with young people for a long time.
11:38: And we have eight children ourselves. And so I started telling them stories.
11:46: And I've been telling them stories for, my oldest is 27 now. And the youngest is six.
11:55: So that's where the desire to tell stories came from. It goes back to a book
12:03: I read, actually, too, long ago about storytelling. And I thought, yeah, this is a great way to communicate to children, to teach them important things.
12:17: The story seems to keep the attention of the child and then get them thinking.
12:25: Of course, Jesus used stories all the time to communicate the truth to people.
12:31: So that's how I got interested in storytelling. And I started teaching a class to the homeschoolers, local homeschool community, called
12:40: Speech, Debate, and Storytelling. And I wanted to add that dimension of storytelling to the speech and debate class.
12:49: It used to just be speech and debate. And I said, you know, storytelling's somewhat of a lost art.
12:54: Maybe we can revive it. And that's how I got started in storytelling. Well, you obviously developed an excellent gift for it, because I know
13:06: Joel Beeke, the founder of Reformation Heritage Books, is a very fussy man.
13:12: And he would not have brought your book into print if he did not, if it was excellent.
13:18: And I'm speaking of your book for children that we are going to discuss in part today,
13:26: Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale. And why don't you tell us, first of all, who is or what is
13:36: Pygo? Yes, Pygo is a regal angelfish.
13:43: They're on the barrier reef down off the coast of Australia. And he is the main character in the book.
13:58: There's a lot of me in Pygo, or my history in Pygo, too, as a character.
14:05: Even though he's a fish and I'm a human. We have similar backgrounds in many ways.
14:13: And how did you come up with the name Pygo? Well, that goes back to his scientific name.
14:23: The scientific name for the regal angelfish is Pygopite Iacanthus.
14:31: And that's the regal angelfish's name. So I just took the first four letters, Pygo, and made it his name.
14:39: And then I found out later, in Greek, that Pygo means rump or posterior. So I thought that was pretty clever and included that in my thinking.
14:52: But that was later when I found that out. Well, before you go any further into a description of the book,
14:59: I'm going to read an endorsement from somebody that I'd love to interview on this program.
15:07: George Grant, pastor of Parish Presbyterian Church in Franklin, Tennessee, and author of quite a number of books himself.
15:18: And George says, It is said that if you want someone to know something, tell them.
15:25: If you want them to understand something, tell them again. But if you want someone to love something, tell them a story.
15:34: That is precisely what Stephen Warhurst and April Reese have done in this delightful book.
15:41: They've told a wonderful story that prompts us to love what is right and good and true, while simultaneously helping us to know and understand both the beauty of God's created order and the dangers inherent in violating his gracious commands.
15:59: And if George Grant thinks so highly of this book, I am going to presume that it is excellent because I love
16:09: George Grant and his writings as well. So tell us more about the story of this angel fish named
16:14: Pygo. Well, I don't want to spoil it too much, but... Oh yes, we don't want you to give away the end or anything.
16:22: It has a... Yeah, it has a... It's a different kind of book, really.
16:29: Lots of children's books are entertaining, and some of them are sort of, you don't really have a message coming through.
16:42: It's, you know, a good night moon, okay? Those kinds of stories are fun to read to little kids, but there's no message.
16:51: And I wanted to have a book that was meaningful, full of meaning, and even different layers of meaning.
16:58: I wanted it to have meaning for the little kid who can get the basic story and get the basic lesson that's being communicated.
17:11: And I also wanted it to be for the parents, so that there's something deeper that would maybe prompt the parents to think about these issues.
17:23: And I wanted to have things hidden in the book. Too. That are...
17:30: That you would discover. And when you discover, it's just fun to discover things in a book.
17:36: And you say, oh, I think I see what he's up to there, what the author is trying to do. Not tell people so much, but that they discover things.
17:46: So at the end, I do tell a lot of the things that are hidden in the book, the different layers of meaning.
17:54: For those who didn't see them. But there's other stuff, too, that is not spoken of, that people will get, just depending on your experience, or the books you've read, or your knowledge of Darwin and his life.
18:12: Things like that. And knowledge of the scriptures. And you'll see that. So I wanted it to be a book full of meaning, with different layers, and to be thought provoking for parents, and then also provide an opportunity for parents to lead their children to Christ, through the book.
18:34: That they would lead their children to love his ways. And as a warning, too, to cautionary tales.
18:46: Cautionary tales, you just don't run across them very much anymore. It used to be pretty common to have cautionary tales.
18:53: Some of them are funny and humorous. I can't remember the exact tale, but it was about the little girl who went around slamming doors, and then eventually died.
19:04: Of course, the tale is to teach kids to quit slamming the door. But there's not a lot of cautionary tales.
19:10: This is a more serious cautionary tale. But it also has humor in it, too.
19:18: I can't remember the question. I think I might have gotten off track. Well, I think that you probably answered it correctly, because I don't remember the question either.
19:29: And I don't remember thinking to myself, he's not answering my question. But you've also,
19:38: I don't know how long you've known the artist, but April Rees, she's quite a talented artist.
19:52: Really beautifully illustrated book. Yes, she did an excellent job. Very gifted young lady.
20:00: She was a student, actually, and her brothers and sisters were in some of my classes that I teach here at the church.
20:09: And I'd seen some of her work and was really impressed. She just did an excellent job on this.
20:17: Yes, you did. And I'm glad that you seem to be in step with Dr.
20:31: Beakey, Dr. Joel Beakey, who happens to be a member of the
20:39: Heritage Netherlands Reform Church denomination. And although he is a
20:47: Pato Baptist, like Presbyterians, he mentioned the
20:53: PCA before, although he is a Pato Baptist, he does not believe that we should presume upon the salvation of our children and that our children, even the children of Christian parents, should be viewed as a mission field.
21:13: There is a disagreement amongst our Pato Baptist brethren on that issue.
21:20: So I'm glad that this book is intended for parents to lead their children to Christ, because I've even heard on occasion some of my
21:32: Presbyterian brothers say things like, well, I don't need to lead my children to Christ, they're already in Christ, that kind of thing.
21:43: But it's good to hear, because as a Reform Baptist, I think it's a very important thing to view children as a mission field.
21:54: And this looks like a book that would be an excellent vehicle to be used in that way.
22:04: So tell us about some of the feedback that you've already gotten for the book. Well, we've had very positive feedback from the folks.
22:15: I don't know if the people who don't like it would come and tell me, but so far it's been really positive.
22:24: I got a note from a man who said that he got the book and he'd already had to read it three times to his child, and now it's the preferred bedtime reading every night for the moment.
22:39: So I was thankful for that, and wants to read Pygo. And so that's encouraging to hear stories like that.
22:50: There is an interesting response to it, that it shocks people.
22:56: The book shocks people, especially the ending. That's why I can't tell the ending. But they're not used to children's stories doing this, what this book does.
23:10: It's unusual, especially I think for modern. Maybe it might not have been unusual in the 1800s or 1700s, or it might have fit in with some of the older tales.
23:27: But modern tales don't do what this book does, I don't think. That's got some adults off guard, and they didn't know exactly what to think,
23:35: I believe. One person said, this is for older children. It must be for older children.
23:42: And I would put it probably in the ages 5 to 12 could profit from it.
23:52: A 12 -year -old would, it would seem childish probably to some 12 -year -olds, but the story is not.
24:00: The story is something that would be good for a 12 -year -old. And some people think, well, that's not really fit for young children because of the nature of the tale.
24:10: But I think that little kids can get it. And sometimes we underestimate. And our kids need to hear what this book is about for sure.
24:22: And it's good to, I think, get them early thinking in this way and discussing these things.
24:29: I have a 5 -year -old, and he sat down, you know, he had heard the story several times before it was published.
24:39: But when we sat down and actually got the real book in our hands and sat down and read it, he was very attentive.
24:46: And I asked him some questions about it, and we discussed it afterwards. And he's understanding that his little brain was gone.
24:55: And that's part of the purpose behind the book is to get people thinking. But it is an unusual book.
25:00: It's not, I don't think you find books like this very often. Well, we have to go to our first break right now.
25:08: If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of their own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
25:16: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
25:26: U .S .A., and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.
25:33: That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away.
25:39: We'll be right back with Stephen Warhurst and more of our discussion on storytelling for children right after these messages from our sponsors.
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39:01: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Trap and Zion Radio. And we are returning to our discussion with Stephen Warhurst.
39:11: And Stephen is the author of Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale.
39:17: And our main theme today is storytelling for children that provokes deep biblical thought.
39:24: Fluff should never be enough, not even for kids. If you have a question for us, we would love to hear from you at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
39:32: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
39:42: USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. A BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania has a question for you.
39:54: BB asks, if a child were to read this book along with his parents, would there be a need for words to be defined and perhaps ways that the child's mind would be stretched rather than him just reading very simple words that he would already know the meaning of?
40:16: Right. The book is, it depends on the age of the child,
40:23: I guess, and whether or not they'll understand all the words. It's somewhat designed to be read to children.
40:32: But a child definitely could read it. I just think there would be more advantage for it to be read to them.
40:39: Most of the words are not hard to understand. That's pretty easy language.
40:48: The subtleties of it probably would not be gotten by a child unless the parent helped them to see those things.
40:55: But no, just looking through it, I don't think that there's really hard words in there for maybe a third grader, fourth grader to read.
41:03: They could read almost everything in there and understand it. Might have to find a few things, but they're not really important to the story.
41:10: Like, they might not know what algae is or the Galapagos Islands. They would get the idea probably it's an island, but may not know exactly where it is.
41:18: Although there is a map. There's a map on there. So, no, I think most elementary school children could read this and understand it.
41:27: Well, thank you, Bebe. And if you give us your full mailing address, you will get in the mail a free copy of Paigo, The Free, A Cautionary Tale, which was published by our friends at Reformation Heritage Books.
41:43: And we have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,
41:50: I heard you early on in the interview mention Darwin. I'm assuming that this book includes some kind of apologetic for children that would refute
42:02: Darwinian evolution in some way. Yes, that is definitely a theme to show really the silliness of Darwinism is displayed.
42:18: And I think Darwin's theory is somewhat silly. People were desperate, I believe at the time, to find some way to get away from the creation story.
42:27: And they found a pretty outlandish tale in Charles Darwin and his errors of evolutionary theory,
42:36: Darwinism. And I think the story exposes in a really simple way to children that that's really absurd that this kind of thing would happen.
42:51: What the evolutionary scientists tell us happened over millions, billions of years is really somewhat absurd.
42:59: It takes more faith to believe in Darwin's theory than to believe in the creation story of Genesis 1 for sure.
43:09: And I think that it comes across pretty clearly in the book at a simple level for elementary school children to see.
43:16: Yeah, and they cannot hear too early refutations of that because children are hearing
43:24: Darwinian evolution in some perhaps unlikely places that are intended for children in the media because even in the nature programs for children, you very often hear about the millions of years that it has taken for a certain animal to evolve into another kind of animal, etc.
44:00: And you'll hear things about our ancestors, the chimpanzees and all that kind of thing.
44:06: Even in programming for little children and books for children that are secular for the most part.
44:15: Although before my rebirth in Christ in the mid -80s,
44:24: I was raised Roman Catholic and I was in Catholic grammar school in the late 60s up until the mid -70s and we were taught in our
44:39: Catholic parochial school, in our science class, Darwinian evolution.
44:46: We were told that the stories in the Old Testament were fairy tales and so on.
44:52: Now that was in the science class. I'm sure that the nuns did not agree, some of the older nuns especially, did not agree with that.
45:03: But we were definitely being fed Darwinian evolution even as very young children in Catholic school.
45:09: Yeah, for sure. If you go to the library and you pick up almost any book for a kid, it's probably the assumption.
45:17: It's more assumed than proven. They just, everybody just assumes it's true and they go with it.
45:26: And it's even hard to find proof for Darwinism. It's just, you're dumb if you don't believe it is sort of the best argument that they have.
45:34: Right. But yeah, but when you start to look at Darwin's theory and start to think about it, like Pygo becomes a
45:41: Darwinian for a time, you realize, well, this is really absurd.
45:47: Huh, the angelfish was Darwinian, huh? For a time, for a time.
45:56: We have, oh, by the way, CJ, you've also won a free copy of this book that we have been mentioning,
46:05: Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale. And so make sure we have your full mailing address in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.
46:14: We've got a question from RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, is this book an allegory, just like Pilgrim's Progress, except for a more exclusively younger audience?
46:30: Yeah, good question. Is it an allegory? Uh, I'm not sure it would be an allegory where, you know, there's certain things representing other things.
46:45: They're definitely undercurrents and ideas, but it's not an allegory, probably in the same sense
46:55: Pilgrim's Progress is. There are, Pygo is supposed to represent people, of course, he's an angelfish.
47:06: His thinking is obviously human, and he's thinking like a certain human way of thinking that we meet commonly in the world.
47:18: And that's a good question. I wouldn't consider it an allegory, necessarily. You know, like an allegory usually has this, like each part of it would have a meaning of a, that represents
47:31: Christ. That represents the cross, or that represents something else.
47:38: I'd say no, it's more of a story with allusions to things, it does have allusions to things that are broader than the tale itself.
47:47: And there is one part of the story that is somewhat allegorical, and might qualify for that, and that's when
47:57: Pygo meets a beagle. A beagle like the dog, or a beetle like the insect?
48:06: A beagle like the dog. Pygo meets a beagle that is swimming, and he hops on the beagle's back, and the beagle takes him to the
48:20: Galapagos Islands. Now, there's some allegory in that, if you know anything about Darwin, that his boat that he took to the
48:33: Galapagos Islands was called the beagle. Oh, I did not remember that, that's interesting.
48:40: It's the HMS Beagle. Of course, in the story, Pygo is on the back of a dog, which is, you have to, it's somewhat humorous, the whole part.
48:52: And there's other things, he meets a fish named
48:58: Charlie, tuna fish, of course. Is Starkist suing you right now?
49:06: I don't know, I hope not, but he meets the fish Charlie, but Charlie is also teaching him
49:12: Darwinism, which you can see the connection there, to Charles, Darwin.
49:20: So Charles is his teacher. So there's two allusions there, you have the tuna who's named
49:26: Charles, and who represents somewhat Darwin. So would you say that Darwinian evolution plays a major theme in this book?
49:39: I think so, yes, yeah. It's apologetic against it on a children's level, just like I said,
49:47: I believe the theory is absurd, and it's a desperate attempt to find some way to explain how we got here, but it's pretty desperate.
49:59: And so that's definitely a theme, I'd say yes, a big theme. If you're familiar with the idea of the reductio ad absurdum, reducing something to its absurdity, showing how it leads to absurdity,
50:15: I think that's part of my goal in the book, is to take Darwinianism and reduce it to absurdity for a child to be able to see.
50:26: Is there any point in the book where Pygo meets
50:32: Nemo from Finding Nemo, and evangelizes Nemo?
50:40: No, but that's, maybe that'll be the part two, I don't know. I see. And perhaps maybe even gets
50:48: Ellen DeGeneres saved at the same time. That'd be great. By the way,
50:54: I don't think I told RJ yet, RJ in White Plains, if I haven't told you already, you've also won a free copy of Pygo the
51:02: Free, I hope you have children in your life, either your own, or perhaps you have grandchildren, or nephews and nieces, but please give us your full mailing address, and we'll have that shipped out to you by our friends at CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
51:21: They'll ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us, and we also want to thank again Reformation Heritage Books for their generosity in providing us with some of the copies of this book,
51:35: Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale. We're going to our midway break right now, it's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
51:45: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to fulfill
51:56: FCC requirements and localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.
52:04: They air their own public service announcements and other things local to that area during the midway break, and we air our globally heard commercials, so please use this time wisely, please write down as much of the information as you can, provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because keep in mind, the more often you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we're going to be able to remain on the air because we depend upon the advertising dollars that our sponsors provide.
52:45: So, please try to patronize them as much as possible, and to further ensure you will do that, try to write down as much of the information as you can that they provide in their ads.
52:56: Also, send in questions for our guest today, Stephen Warhurst, and this would be on storytelling for children as the broader theme, storytelling for children that provokes deep biblical thought, and that email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
53:15: chrisarnson at gmail .com, and always remember to give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence, and we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors, so don't go away.
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55:15: James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the
55:30: Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.
55:37: I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
55:45: New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the
55:56: Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
56:01: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for the recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
56:07: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
56:15: That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.
56:22: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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57:04: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised
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01:03:02: As host of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:03:08: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:03:18: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:03:26: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:03:32: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:03:37: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
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01:05:46: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida and the
01:05:56: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
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01:06:28: O Hail the Power of Jesus' Name This is
01:06:36: Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:06:42: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support
01:06:47: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
01:07:03: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
01:07:10: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe ten minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some
01:07:23: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:07:33: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org that's gracechurchatfranklin .org
01:07:41: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
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01:09:11: In Psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this
01:09:16: I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw
01:09:24: God's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what God has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust
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01:10:01: God like the psalmist did may God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you
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01:13:07: and always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio well before we return to our discussion today with our guest
01:13:18: Stephen Warhurst we do have a couple of announcements to make first of all please mark your calendars for a week from tomorrow that's
01:13:32: June the 19th Friday June the 19th we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we we
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01:18:04: Bible -believing church and you need some help finding one, no matter where you live on the planet
01:18:12: Earth, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I've helped many people in this audience find churches near them in all parts of the planet
01:18:22: Earth, where they have joined or where they have visited while on vacation, or where they have recommended them to others who are not aware of biblically sound churches near them.
01:18:34: So if you need help finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:18:41: and put, I need a church in the subject line, and we would love to help you find a church, God willing.
01:18:46: Well, we're now back to our discussion on storytelling for children that provokes deep biblical thought.
01:18:54: Fluff should never be enough, not even for kids, with our guest
01:18:59: Stephen Warhurst, author of Pygo the Free, A Cautionary Tale, a child's book or children's book published by Reformation Heritage Books.
01:19:11: And we do have Mary in Cork, Ireland, who has a question for you.
01:19:19: She asks, I wonder if it is appropriate to ever frighten children through children's literature.
01:19:29: I know that the Bible itself can be very frightening in many places, so I assume as long as it's done with tact and taste, that it would be appropriate.
01:19:43: That's interesting, to frighten children. I don't, the story of course isn't frightening in the sense of like a horror story that scares kids in that way or makes them afraid of things that aren't real, like ghosts or,
01:19:59: I don't think that would be appropriate, to frighten children with, make them fear things that they shouldn't fear.
01:20:05: But she's right, the Bible definitely says things that should be frightening to us if they apply to us.
01:20:16: They wouldn't be frightening to us if they don't apply to us, but if the Bible has threats, has promises, has threats, and if the threat applies to us, then we definitely should be afraid.
01:20:31: So, I think it's appropriate, but the story isn't frightening in that sense.
01:20:38: It's sobering at the end. It has comical parts throughout, but it's sobering that for those who do depart from Christ, there's a great danger to those who are apart from Christ, those who reject
01:20:54: Him. So it has a sobering message too. So I don't know if it's frightening, but it's sobering and serious at points.
01:21:06: I think that's part of good stories, though. They have funny parts, and they get you to enjoy the way they're written, and then also, they can also be sobering to parents and children alike.
01:21:22: That's an interesting question. That's good. Well, thank you, Mary, and we don't mail books overseas, or should
01:21:31: I say Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service doesn't, because the cost would be astronomical if they were sending out books to all of our overseas listeners that wrote in, but we know that you have in mind the person here in the
01:21:45: United States to receive this book, so we're going to get it to that person.
01:21:50: That's Pygo the Free, A Questionary Tale. Thank you very much for your question today.
01:22:00: Now, I'm curious, who are some of your favorite authors that perhaps specifically have an audience for children?
01:22:15: Right. Of course, I think C .S. Lewis would be one, and the
01:22:23: Chronicles of Narnia would be a definite. One thing I loved about his stories is that there was more to it than just the surface tale.
01:22:31: There was the story itself, and then there was the underlying meanings, and some allegory too, and so I've always appreciated those stories.
01:22:41: We have John Bunyan. I don't know if people consider John Bunyan a children's storyteller, but the
01:22:49: Pilgrim's Progress is filled with allegory that teaches important principles.
01:22:58: There was a book that my kids grew up on called The Dangerous Journey. It's a little version of Pilgrim's Progress illustrated.
01:23:07: It just has snippets from Pilgrim's Progress with good pictures, and my kids have loved that story.
01:23:17: It's got different scenes. Giant despair, and they got to know the different characters in Pilgrim's Progress.
01:23:27: Faithful, and Vanity Fair. Different little snippets.
01:23:33: It's really well done. I think Bunyan is definitely good for that.
01:23:39: The book itself is good for adults too, of course, but kids can get a lot out of Bunyan.
01:23:48: The other children's authors who have been influential in this way.
01:23:59: For short books like this, this is a picture book. I can't really think of any out there, honestly.
01:24:10: There are lots of them, but they don't do what this... They're different, and they have different strengths.
01:24:17: This book does rhyme, and that's something kids like.
01:24:23: Maybe adults too. This adult does. That's the beginning of those two.
01:24:32: I'm having trouble thinking of others right now. I can recommend one myself to our listeners.
01:24:39: I might be introducing you to a book as well. Living with God, I Can Know God by Nancy Gorel.
01:24:50: The illustrator is Mary Ann Page Smith. Nancy Gorel is an
01:24:56: Orthodox Presbyterian wife of an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor in Westminster, California.
01:25:04: Pastor B .J. Gorel. How do you spell
01:25:10: Gorel? Do you know? G -O -R -E -L -L. Nancy was such a godsend to me a number of years ago when my nephew's wife up in Schenectady, New York My nephew's wife was dying of brain cancer.
01:25:32: And she, as far as I knew, was not saved. And Nancy really reached out to her and took her shopping quite often.
01:25:44: Went out to dinner with her. Went out to lunch and breakfast with her. Just did the kinds of things that women like doing with other women.
01:25:54: And she evangelized my nephew's wife. Not only evangelized, but also demonstrated the love of Christ to her.
01:26:05: And I will never be able to thank her enough for being such a good friend to her those last months of her life.
01:26:14: Yes. A very talented woman. And let's see, we have another listener with a question.
01:26:23: We have John in Bangor, Maine. And John asks,
01:26:31: I don't know if anybody asked this question before, but is there a lot of Biblical content and doctrine referred to in your book?
01:26:43: I know it's for children, but how much of the theology and doctrine of the
01:26:48: Bible would you say occupies space in this book? Right.
01:26:56: There are several things from the Bible, for sure. One of the theme verses, there are four verses in the introduction, or two verses at the beginning of the book, and then there are two verses at the end of the book that are somewhat explanatory of the themes in the story.
01:27:20: The first verse at the beginning is James 1 .25, He who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, this one will be blessed in what he does.
01:27:34: And giving the idea that in obedience to God's good law, we are blessed, that God blesses obedience as we learn to love and delight in His law.
01:27:45: And that's one of the themes is that God's law is good. The problem is our sinful hearts, they get twisted.
01:27:54: God's ways are the best ways. If we're going to have a good life, if we want things to go well for us, then we need to walk in His commandments by the power of the
01:28:05: Holy Spirit. Of course, that's something that the Spirit does in the hearts of any of us.
01:28:10: We don't like God's law, we don't like His ways, until the Spirit of God gives us an affection for it.
01:28:17: So that's one of the themes to the book. The idea that sin enslaves, sin does not set us free.
01:28:27: We think that when we sin that somehow we're set free.
01:28:33: And oh good, I get to sin and that gives us a sense of liberation. That's actually a deception.
01:28:39: So there's this idea in the story that sin enslaves.
01:28:47: That when we commit sin, we become slaves to sin. True freedom is found actually in the
01:28:53: Lord Jesus. That if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. So that's one of the doctrinal themes in the book.
01:29:02: The freedom in Christ to develop what
01:29:08: David speaks about frequently, how he loves God's law and God's ways. I think one of the things that we get deceived by is we look longingly at those who are sinning against God as though they somehow have it good.
01:29:25: Like, oh I wish I could go do that. And that is a deadly way of thinking. We may say to ourselves as Christians, oh
01:29:31: I would never do what they're doing because I know it's bad. But there's a desire in our heart to do it.
01:29:39: And that's deadly to all of us. Instead of envying the wicked, as David tells us not to do, we're supposed to pity them.
01:29:50: We need to see that sin leads to death and that all the pretty things that are attached to it that look attractive are deceptions.
01:30:00: So another major theme is that there's a way that seems right to a man. Oh boy, this is going to bring me satisfaction, this is going to bring me life.
01:30:09: But its end is the way of death. And that's Proverbs 14 .12. There's a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
01:30:16: Then also, it emphasizes a part of the gospel that's often lost. The book emphasizes the part of the gospel that people downplay, and that's the fact that the wages of sin is death.
01:30:32: In some presentations of the gospel in broader circles, they downplay the fact that you're a sinner, dead in your trespasses and sin, and doomed.
01:30:45: And then people are asking the question, well, why do I need Jesus? Well, you don't know you need Jesus until you realize that you are dead in your trespasses and sin and doomed forever if you don't have the
01:30:56: Lord Jesus. So that's another doctrinal theme, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, and Christ Jesus is our
01:31:03: Lord. And the book emphasizes that first part about the wages of sin is death, and the parent is left to point their children to the only solution for that.
01:31:17: And so that's how a parent could present the gospel to their child as they read it. You see, this is where sin leads.
01:31:25: This is the state of all of us. We're dead apart from Christ. Our sins have ruined us.
01:31:31: Our sins bring us to destruction, but Christ sets us free.
01:31:37: His ways are the best ways to try to teach children to delight in the ways of God.
01:31:44: So those are some of the doctrinal themes. They're definitely in there, and it's all in the story and form.
01:31:51: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, wants to know, Well, is this your first book, and also do you intend to have sequels featuring
01:32:00: Pygo? Well, this is the first book, yes, that's been published.
01:32:08: And sequels, that's a really good question. We are looking at that and thinking about that.
01:32:16: I don't want to say too much about that, but possibly. And I definitely would like to do a couple more.
01:32:24: I've got some ideas that, again, working on different levels that I've been speaking to Reformation Heritage about.
01:32:37: So maybe so. I hope so. Great. Well, by the way, our last two listeners, both of you,
01:32:47: I think I forgot to tell you, you each won as well a free copy of Pygo the
01:32:53: Free, A Questionary Tale by our guest Stephen Warhurst. We are now going to our final station break.
01:33:03: It is much more brief than the others. If you intend to join us on the air with a question, please try to do so very soon, because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:33:13: And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:33:21: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Stephen Warhurst right after these messages from our sponsors. Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said,
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01:36:00: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
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01:37:56: Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.
01:38:04: Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many
01:38:10: Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
01:38:16: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
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01:38:34: In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
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01:38:46: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
01:38:53: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878
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01:44:40: from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, we are running out of time, so please do it as quickly as possible.
01:44:53: Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
01:44:59: And as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the
01:45:06: USA. I was wondering also if you, as a child yourself, began doodling and writing things that were a child's version of a child's book.
01:45:26: No, not as a child. I didn't really start reading books until after I became a
01:45:34: Christian. Interestingly, as a non -believer, we had books in the home and stuff, and I was assigned books in school.
01:45:43: But as far as picking up a book and reading it, it wasn't something that I did at all. I don't remember reading much as a child.
01:45:54: But again, in God's providence, there was an interesting thing that happened as a person who never read as a teenager in high school.
01:46:02: Somehow, I haven't the foggiest idea how, I got a hold of C .S. Lewis' Space Trilogy and read the first book in the
01:46:14: Space Trilogy. And that's just sort of weird to me. I don't know how that happened out of the silent planet.
01:46:22: So other than that book, I didn't read many books, and in college I didn't read really at all either. You may not know this, but you can't actually get through a state university without reading.
01:46:37: And make okay grades too. I'm pretty sure I did that. I was not a believer in my college years either.
01:46:48: So after I became a Christian, I started reading the Bible first, and then from there started reading other books and became a voracious reader.
01:46:56: I love to read now, and that's a big part of my life, my family's life, and my children as well.
01:47:03: But as a child, no, I didn't read. We have, let's see,
01:47:09: I was just looking at the question, and it disappeared from my screen. Where is it? Oh, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, said,
01:47:22: I already heard you before give a couple of recommendations for Christian books on children, but are there any books that you know of that would be either acceptable or even beneficial for children that are not written by Christians?
01:47:40: Right. Well, I wish I was at home right now, because we have shelves of children's books.
01:47:49: There is, but I'm going to have trouble remembering titles. There were these books that were done a while back that were of classics, like a children's version of different classics, like Robinson Crusoe, which actually,
01:48:09: Robinson Crusoe has many Christian themes, actually. He's actually converted in the story while he's on the island.
01:48:17: By reading the Bible. But there's, and they have these paintings in there as well.
01:48:26: And if I was at my home in the Hebbett Library, I could look at those. I just thought of a book that my kids like, but they're not actually by, this one's by R .C.
01:48:37: Sproul. He has children's books, several children's books. Oh, yeah, yeah, I have seen those.
01:48:43: And they're very good. They're also books that are meaningful, and that they have messages, theological messages, so I definitely recommend those.
01:48:52: And that's A Dangerous Journey, which is that version of children's progress. But those books,
01:48:59: I wish I had the titles. I'm trying to think of some other children's books.
01:49:12: Well, while you're thinking, I'll give our email address one more time, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:49:20: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:49:31: USA. Thanks for the time, but it didn't help.
01:49:41: That's fine, that's fine. I remember the authors who illustrated it now, and that was N -C -Y -F,
01:49:48: N -C -Y -F -W -Y -E -T -H. And they're little short versions of classics.
01:49:54: Now, there is one that my kids like to read, and it's not a Christian book, but it's a classic story.
01:50:02: It's on the Odyssey, and it's a children's version of Homer's Odyssey.
01:50:11: Again, if I was home, I could grab it and get you the title of it.
01:50:18: It has excellent illustrations. But there's some children's versions of, like, the
01:50:23: Aeneid, too, and they have great illustrations. And those stories, of course, are pagan, but they're excellent stories, and they're thought -provoking stories.
01:50:37: They have some substance to them, and it's shortened for them. So if they're looking for, you know, books not by Christians, my kids have profited by those and prepared them when we read, in their later years, when we read the
01:50:50: Iliad and the Odyssey and the Aeneid, to be ready for that.
01:50:56: One thing about those books is it gives them an introduction to that classical literature.
01:51:03: But I don't think, I mean, there are definitely themes in the Odyssey that are not
01:51:08: Christian at all, pretty much pagan books. But there's also parts of the story that are good to provoke discussion.
01:51:20: Should Odysseus have done that? What should we think of that? Different. You know, that classical literature has at least that substance that makes kids think, and you can interact with them.
01:51:35: It's not really great for them to read alone. Generally, you know, kids in Christian homes are not going to be seduced by Athena.
01:51:43: Or, you know, that's not a real temptation to most modern children to believe in Athena or Zeus.
01:51:50: So, those can be helpful books. We have an anonymous listener who says,
01:51:56: I am having a dispute with my Christian friends over some of the literature that I believe is acceptable for children.
01:52:04: They say we should never allow our children to read books or watch movies or videos, etc.
01:52:13: that involve wizards and warlocks and magic, things like the
01:52:19: Wizard of Oz and other things, because all of that is from the occult. What do you think about using things like that in children's literature, as long as it's obviously a tamer version that is not overtly
01:52:34: Satanic? Well, it depends how the magic...
01:52:41: The magic is an interesting discussion in tales or children's works or in any work of literature.
01:52:50: It depends on how the magic is portrayed. If the magic is portrayed in a way that it would entice children to say, oh,
01:52:59: I want to have that magical power, or even the idea of the Force. I remember as a kid growing up in basically a secular home and wanting to have the
01:53:11: Force after Star Wars. And I was hoping, I wonder if I could turn off my light if I had the power of the
01:53:17: Force and I wouldn't have to get out of bed. You know, those kinds of... So, sometimes the way things are portrayed can be seductive to children.
01:53:28: Other times, magic and things like that can be portrayed in a way that teaches you not to mess with magic.
01:53:37: That's one of the interesting things about Lewis. He's sometimes criticized for having witches, and also
01:53:43: Tolkien as well. In his works, he's often criticized for, you know, a wizard and things like that.
01:53:52: But one thing they did, which you have to pay real close attention to note this, is the way they portrayed it is whenever a human being used magic, it always resulted in bad.
01:54:07: Because they were not to use magic. The humans in their stories weren't to use magic. If you think of Lucy in...
01:54:14: It might be the Dawn Treader. I can't remember which one of the Lewis books. She messes with magic and it has very bad results.
01:54:22: But in their stories, in the little world they create, the only people who are allowed to use powers are actually not human.
01:54:32: They're in some different form. Like in Tolkien, Gandalf's not human.
01:54:38: He's something more than that. And the elves are not human.
01:54:45: And so I think there's a way to use magic that's actually very thoughtful and helpful.
01:54:52: But you sometimes have to pay attention. They're not using it.
01:54:59: Two of the more subtle guys are Tolkien and Lewis and the way they use magic. But I also think that in other ways it can be very seductive.
01:55:08: It may not be as well used in the Harry Potter tales because kids may come away thinking, oh,
01:55:15: I wish I had magical powers so I could take vengeance on all my enemies or the people who are mean to me. And I don't think it's used thoughtfully in those tales as it is by better authors.
01:55:28: I wouldn't say magic itself in the story is wrong. You do have witches in the
01:55:34: Bible. You have witches in Dor, portrayed as doing, you know, she's necromancing.
01:55:39: And of course it's a negative thing. It's destructive. So having bad witches would not be a bad thing.
01:55:47: But also in the fairy tales or fictional stories, having people who have powers is not necessarily wrong.
01:55:58: That's my view on that. I'd love to talk more about that. That's a pretty complex subject.
01:56:06: Well, we've got about three minutes, a little less than three minutes for you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.
01:56:19: Well, I hope that the book, Pygo, helps parents lead their children to the
01:56:28: Lord Jesus. I dedicated the book to my three youngest children,
01:56:36: Owen, Kira, and Knox, with the desire that they would read it and learn to love
01:56:44: God's law of liberty, love that perfect law of liberty that James speaks of and delight in God's way.
01:56:52: So that's what I would hope that people who would read the book, children who would read the book, that the Lord would give them a love for his law, for his ways, for that way of life that he's lined out for us in his word.
01:57:09: That would probably be my great desire for the book. Great.
01:57:15: Well, I want to make sure that our listeners remember that you can find out more about Pygo the
01:57:22: Free at www .heritagebooks .org www .heritagebooks
01:57:28: .org That's the website of Reformation Heritage Books. I would ask of you to please, however, order it from our sponsors,
01:57:38: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at www .cvbbs .com www .cvbbs
01:57:44: .com And, of course, Reformation Heritage Books is not going to mind you doing that.
01:57:49: They still have to get paid for the books. So that's a win -win situation.
01:57:56: And do you have any other kind of contact information or other websites or anything that you'd like to share for our audience?
01:58:06: Well, people are welcome to contact me. Would it be appropriate to give my email address? Oh, of course. Yes. If somebody wanted to talk to me about the book or had questions or thoughts, my email is reforming,
01:58:19: R -E -F -O -R -M -I -N -G, reforming at yahoo .com And I'd be glad to talk to folks about the book or other things as well.
01:58:29: That's reforming at yahoo .com Yes. Well, thank you so much.
01:58:34: It's been fascinating speaking with you today, Stephen. And I also want to remind our listeners, don't forget we are on every day,
01:58:41: Monday through Friday, but I just wanted to particularly highlight my first ever interview coming up with Oz Guinness on the 19th of June.
01:58:52: That's Friday, June 19th. He is on for the first hour of that Friday program.
01:59:01: And he's going to be discussing his book, Fool's Talk, Recovering the Art of Christian Persuasion.
01:59:07: And in the second hour, Gary DeMar returns to our show. And he's going to be discussing a book that he has brought into print,
01:59:15: Greg L. Bonson's book, Against All Opposition, Defending the Christian Worldview. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.
01:59:25: I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.