June 28, 2016 Show with Joe Thorn on “The Practical Implications of Reformed Theology”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Who are listening via live streaming? This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 28th day of June 2016.

And A guest that we had originally scheduled to have on the air. Dayton Harmon. He had to Dayton Hartman, I'm sorry, he had to reschedule because his wife is expecting their baby any Moment now and it's going to be another little boy that they are inviting into the world.

So I am so very happy that once again with very little notice Our friend Joe Thorne was able to charge in on a white horse and save the day. Being our guests with very little notice at all. And Joe Thorne is the founding and lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

He has written two books note to self the disciple. The disciple of preaching I think isn't this supposed to be the distance did the discipline. That's right. Yeah, what's a typo there on your website the discipline of preaching to yourself and Experiencing the Trinity the grace of God for the people of God.

And he has contributed articles to the ESV's men's devotional Bible. The ESV story Bible and the mission of God study Bible. He is currently writing a series of three books on the church for moody publishers.

And today we are discussing the practical implications of Reform theology. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor Joe Thorne.

Thanks for having me on again guys. That's always a good time. And you know, just to let you know my guest I.

Thought he had a pretty lame excuse, you know.

Before we go, oh, yeah, let me introduce you to my favorite sound effects machine Reverend buzz Taylor my co-host.

Hello, good afternoon. Good to talk to you again and.

What Reformed Theology Means and Why the Term Is Often Misused

Before we go into this very important topic this most misunderstood topic of Reform theology because there are many people who say there are no practical implications the reform theology. But if you could Joe let our listeners know about Redeemer Fellowship.

I know I asked you to describe it every time you come on, but there are people who discover the show. Every day, in fact, especially since our we have a full-page ad in World Magazine this month. And we have been getting new listeners as a result.

It's a full-page ad that happens to be directly next to the story on the death of World heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali, so it's quite a great place to be in. But tell our listeners something about Redeemer Fellowship of st. Charles, Illinois.

Fellowship nine years ago and Southern Baptist serve a great congregation. It is a peaceful Happy place and I I feel kind of bad about it because it is genuinely haven't had any in nine years. Like complaining about pre we have trauma right where people fall in really been.

Now once again because some of our listeners may be scratching their head about acts 29 if you can explain that. For the the text that doesn't exist if you could write. Well.

Acts 29 is a there's a network It's a network made up of communicate the idea that this is the continuing story on denominational guide. Now as you know, Joe.

The critics of Reform theology, in fact dare I say some of the enemies of reform theology will Say that this is a comical Discussion or topic that we're having today because they will say there is no practical value to reform theology.

They will say this is the stuff of egghead conversations in.

Library.

In libraries and studies that are filled with cigar smoke as people just sit around with branders of sifters of brandy right and discuss things that have really no Practical value at all on the planet Earth they may titillate the theological excitement of those who are Nerds or Bible nerds and so on but this is really Has no real Practical value at all and explain why you wanted to discuss this very topic today.

One is that that this is In the realm of the are said by people who have not read formed literature that is richly devotional. So they just don't have any any exposure to it. But on the other hand it turns you into a big-mouthed jerk and that's been their experience.

And so Theology not so much for the critics. So there they will definitely for me some of the doctrines of a shell of reformed theology. But they are not yet reformed in heart and you know my desire is for deeply to grow deep roots of godliness of sincerity and and really.

And we can't or shouldn't take it for granted that. Everybody listening actually knows what we are talking about when we say reformed theology because that even.

Has.

Some problems behind it. You have a lot of churches that are a part of a denomination called the Reformed Church of America. That has although there are some faithful men in that denomination who are conservative Bible-believing historically Calvinist men.

But there are also those who would Be liberal or bordering on liberalism though there are those who are caught up in the Self-esteem and self-help movements of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller who are both in that denomination.

I I have had conversations with some RCA men. And when I bring up the doctrines of grace and reformed theology and Calvinism I get one of those looks like a dog has on its face when it tilts its head.

Right, and they don't even know what I'm talking about. So you'll have churches on many in many neighborhoods. That will say first reformed church of this town or what have you and then you also have the misunderstandings of people who wrongly import the same meeting from Reform Judaism, which is one of the most liberal Wings of Judaism.

I think the I think there is a Reconstructionist wing of Judaism that has nothing to do with theonomy and Christian Reconstruction and it's an even more liberal Form than the Reform Judaism, but they they think well, I guess if the Reform Jews are Liberal the Reformed Christians must be liberal.

So if you could let our listeners know basically in summary, of course because this could take a week. Programs are more to easily. Yeah. Yeah, well.

Disregard the the title reformed in in in churches in terms of trying to diagnose what reformed mean. Because like you said Chris, it's used by a lot of people in a lot of different ways just like the word gospel so you need to think about it.

Reformed theology is an understanding of Scripture standing of Scripture an understanding of the revelation of God that was Seen in historical figures like Saint Agatha the Great Awakening. Modern figures like R .C. Sproul is a classic and so it's reflect the idea of reformed theology is articulation of the sovereignty of God the covenant working and Our union with Christ and that is a part of reformed theology.

But really just those five points is not the whole down to it's a pretty big one theology. We have a very high view of man a biblical view of man that shows us to be.

Great, and I'd like to give our email address out now in the event. There are any listeners who'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name. Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And. You may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Which necessitates that you not reveal your identity?

That's. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And one thing that is also true of reformed theology is That it is a theology. Unlike what some might think?

Wrongly that.

Has unified brothers and sisters in Christ from a number of varying denominations, I mean you have Reformed Baptists you have Presbyterians obviously most of whom are reformed but not all. I've discovered a bizarre Arminian Presbyterian denomination called the I think the Cumberland Presbyterians or something like that who are actually vehemently anti-calvinist.

But.

You have reformed Anglicans. You even have Calvinist Methodists which are not that well known today, but in Wales, especially. Most of the Calvinist I think at one time were Methodists and you had dr. Martin Lloyd-jones coming out of that group and so on.

So you have all different kind of Congregationalists who are reformed or Calvinistic and so on. So the basic. Wouldn't the basic summary and I know I've repeated this before the basic summary and you can fill in the blanks here.

But isn't the basic summary of reformed theology is that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

Yeah, I think that's that's a very good summary. I mean that a summary has to communicate a central idea, right. That is critical to the whole and I think that's a great way to introduce people to the basic and.

That we have living proof right here on this program today. We have two reformed Baptists and one Presbyterian who all have very similar theology. It's not identical, but it's all soteriologically Very much the same if not identical and Buzz is a member of a PCA congregation here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and this is one of the few times it seems that the reformed Baptists outnumber the Presbyterians on the show because I Think most of my guests are Presbyterian.

Yeah, but so the. And of course if you wanted to. Briefly again, I know this has seemed it may seem ridiculous to go through the TULIP acronym briefly. But as briefly as you can just so our listeners get more of an idea of what exactly we're talking about.

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Limited Atonement

Right. Well, the Calvinists did not come up with five points that were important to them. Mm-hmm. There was the theological movie ology and so they articulated five points. Sent it to the churches and allude to the leadership and said hey, these are our beef with what the church is teaching today and so.

The church convened and they issued a response to those five points with five points that they say clearly articulate the truth of Scripture. These are known as the canons of Dort and these have been formulated number one total depravity and this does not mean that every human being is but that every part of our being body mind soul like every part of our being every action every thought is corrupted by sin and that our will in that we will not and Cannot exercise good deed.

Or even faith the gravity means that we are in the worst situation possible as we stand before God send ourselves. You and tulip stands for unconditional. So we I had his election of these people is in the man or the woman that moves God to choose them.

Well, this person's really smart. So I'm going to choose He doesn't it's not based on anything in us it is if this died on the cross He died to act everyone then there would be no hating grace at a particular moment in their life.

It may be when they're very young upon them. It is irresistible and this isn't that he is saving us. He is that we are changed in an instant. So God's grace and the P and God causes that idle maniac. That's not the idea persevere in faith.

To the end they may backslide their faith may be very weak. Sometimes they may not look like a Christian. Now going back to one thing that you said.

I just want to clarify it for our listeners about limited atonement also called definite atonement particular redemption Substitutionary atonement even though our minions use that very often they are wrongly using head because only only a Reformed Christian can consistently and logically use the term substitutionary time unless you're a full-blown, you know Universalist.

But. You said that Christ? Did not die for the unbelieving and I'm assuming In fact, I know what you meant by that was the un those that remain in unbelief until death obviously. Everyone for whom he died was unbelieving at some point.

In fact may have been unbelieving for the majority of their lives.

Yes, it's fair to say that Christ only died for the unbelieving. We could always we could always nuance this but yeah, Christ did not die. Never believe right. Died for the elect who will experience God this land that was slain before the found.

This one whose salvation is the cure. Do believe in this great and we do have a listener from.

Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Tyler who says what would be the main reason that our minions can't let go of their golden idol of the heart and Free will. I'm assuming Tyler's a Calvinist I guess.

But yeah that I think that that is not an exaggeration when many Many people who profess to be Christian cling on to this concept of free will like an idol even though their Definition of what free will is is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

And perhaps you might even want to Not only address Tyler's question why they can't let that go. And of course, you'd have to be a mind reader to know that but but. There there is a sense which even John Calvin believed That men have free will but isn't it that we act freely according to our nature.

In other words Neither God nor Satan forces us against our will to do anything.

Formed theology has conceived that all men and women are free agents. That's what we like to use. Edwards and others would talk about free will but it's explained in the context of our nature. We are free to do what we want to do and we will only do what we want to do.

And we're responsible for the things that we do. The reality is, you know, you have the. You have the like Edwards. Jonathan Edwards one of the greatest theologians. Think considered by me or at least one of the greatest thinkers in American.

He would say that all all people have this natural Ability in them to choose right good and evil. That that are necessary to make the natural ability and make choices. But we do not have the moral ability anymore as sinners to choose and do good.

We have free to do whatever to be who I am. I don't know why people hold on to this idea. The desire and attention and and we you know, we sweet we read of Islam and things like that where. It's a scary cold Idea, we don't want to just live in a great big machine where we are a cog and we don't want to live like made-to-be.

But there are a lot of these people go beyond that and I just ran into one at the Southern Baptist Convention I was there a few weeks ago with pastor and because he's had a beard and was bald. I assumed he was a Calvinist.

I.

Wonder why that was. Yeah turns out he wasn't and. And he was really concerned about protecting even just recently after church planted. And if any one of them believes they're going to heaven. So I think people.

Yeah, and the fact of the matter is that?

All these Armenians and those who are in opposition to Unconditional election and they they recoil in horror about There only being a certain certain segment of all of humanity that are Chosen to be saved.

They have to grapple with the note the fact.

That.

Many if not, most of these millions and millions and billions of people are going to hell right, and if their system of Theology is true. I Don't know how they if they were consistent. Logically consistent with what they believe.

How they could ever have one night's rest? Knowing that anybody that they know died and went to hell. Because they if the Armenian system is actually true. They are very much to blame for that person's damnation because they could have.

More frequently evangelized that person they could have more accurately evangelized that person. They could have more lovingly Evangelized that person they could have more lovingly Represented Jesus Christ to that person and the way they lived.

You could go on and on and on and if our minion ism was true. Sorry pal. Everybody that you ever known that you've ever known who has died without Christ. You are partially to blame for their damnation their damnation.

The issue they're underlying all of that is why do some people believe in others? Don't are they smarter? Are they more spiritually? Why does one person but both people hear the same message. One person believes one person doesn't.

Now as a Calvinist I believe that the only reason that one will believe in another won't. The only reason that my parents came to believe the gospel is not because I was such a winsome evangelist. Big mouth when it came to communicating the truth, but what the difference was is God Changed their heart.

He like with Lydia and Acts He opened their heart to respond to the message that I had given. So like, you know, and I shared the gospel actually I needed to leave and go to seminary to leave the state.

If I thought that I had the ability to if I thought it wasn't going to be according to God's sovereign working I never would have left. I would have convinced a long session of waterboarding. I'm not about to risk that or their eternal soul.

The truth is and I and and really when I talked to even have believed in G and they say no I wouldn't have. Like well, there you go. You understand on some level that God had to do you up now.

Let's talk about what that something really is. Yeah, well, you know talk about that guilt trip. I I heard I Will not mention his name because of his popularity and I don't want anybody stoning me when I leave here, but.

That makes one of us.

A very big name in evangelicalism. Years ago had a radio program and he was very dedicated to Evangelism with a very popular track. That's all I'm gonna say.

But.

He said on his radio show Anybody will believe if the gospel is presented correctly and I got to thinking about that people that have been praying for lost loved ones and witnessing to them and pouring their heart out to them and and then they die without Christ and it's like if only I had learned his steps of Evangelism they would have been saved today.

So so did this guy claim to have a hundred percent track record for everybody who ever watched or listened to his?

His messages has got saved. Well, he probably got a lot of people to sign on the dotted line.

Well a lot is in all.

When you boil it down to. God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, you know.

Things kind of go. I didn't mention his name. I didn't know you didn't.

I was just saying. Example. No, I didn't listen. This is listen. All I do is give screwed-up presentations of the gospel. I'm never gonna do a perfect job. I'm a mess. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's. I used to preach the gospel when I was a brand-new Christian.

I don't drop the f-bomb all the time. Because that's how I talk. What do I know? Oh my goodness.

I had people tell me that people couldn't get saved if I use the new American Standard to witness to them.

Whenever whenever buzz preaches his elders use the f-bomb. I don't wanna. I am just kidding folks at Carlisle Reform Presbyterian. That was a joke. I know that you would never use that language now.

You know, that's the nice thing about it though Chris is that that you know. This is the way I put it to my parents when I was explaining to them. You can't say the wrong thing to the right person. You can't say the right thing to the wrong person.

It's just you know, if they're you're you're going to see fruit. If they're elect maybe not right away.

But I mean it's going to work. Well, you're gonna see some kind of fruit, right? Yes.

And this is why you can have John Wesley a very different John Wesley on one side George Whitfield on the other and they're both preaching the gospel. They're both giving some different nuances and presentation and yet God used both of those men magnificently to reach the law.

Okay, we have to go to a break right now and Unless you are not finished with more of the inner workings of what exactly reformed theology is the nuts and bolts We can go into the practical implications, but I think that there was a point you were in the middle of making before Buzz was giving his personal anecdote of a television preacher.

I may be wrong about that. But All right, well we'll be going into the main reason why we gathered here today on the air to Discuss the practical implications of reformed theology. And the first one off the bat I know is that if you have problems Walking if you have bursitis or something that you no longer need to walk an altar call down the aisle to be saved.

So that's one practical. But we're going to a break right now. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back. This is Chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor Joe Thorne of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois. He's also an author and He has become one of our favorite guests here in iron sharpens iron and we are discussing the practical implications of reformed theology Otherwise known as Calvinism and otherwise known as the doctrines of sovereign grace.

If you have a question of your own on the subject our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and before I Have you Begin the specific area of practical implications Joe.

We do have a listener from Clinton Township Michigan.

Jeff.

How would you guys speak to the believer? Who has never been sure if they are elect or just hopeful. I gained comfort from I Gain comfort from 18 Oh chapter 18 for of the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

But what would you add to that. When?

Discipling the weak Christian Christian life. And certainly and I always start damn you to hell. I sins and through him and believe that. And if they say yes, I say well then if you believe that. That's that.

This is the answer. How may we be saved you believe. And then if people are part of that is takes time growth. You know, it comes with maturity. Even our faith in our kid. It's not it's not this beautiful shining example.

Be small at times. And do you find your hope and your comfort in him on the internet. Or I'm still Ignoring the needs of my wife and I'm not putting her first. And so what we say is that we'll listen.

None of those things can damn you your faith is in him. You should have assurance now what you need to do. Earn from those and make sure of our life and the only means by which We can be going back to the gulf.

Yeah, the the Bible.

Never tells us that we know the secret counsels of God, but The Bible also tells us that those who are elect Will be justified and sanctified. Good tree will bear good fruit. There will be evidence of someone if they are the elect.

I remember In the the radio station that I worked for for 15 years When I started to get opportunities to fill in for the regular talk show host. There was always a person every time I was on A very polite a man I believe from the West Indies might have even been from Africa, but he Was always very troubled as to whether or not he was one of the elect and he was very he lived in fear.

And he actually believed even though we corrected him many times. Because he would call in a lot under the alias II just the letter II that's the only thing that he would use to identify himself. He would always ask.

I'm afraid that even though I Repented years ago and continue to repent daily and I have placed my trust in Jesus Christ and I am a member of a Bible believing church and I truly live my life for him, even though I sin and when I sin I I cry out to him for forgiveness.

But I'm so afraid that when I get to the Lord's throne of judgment He's gonna say you were not one of my elect be gone. You worker of wickedness. I am just so terrified. He was he was obviously Talking about Matthew 7 in some degree what the Lord will tell the false converts, but He was was giving the description of somebody that doesn't exist somebody who has truly repented and believed and loves the Lord and has followed him for Their entire life and then they wind up dying and and that isn't they're not holding the lot of the lotto ticket or the lottery ticket That God has for all of his elect.

They have this this bizarre concept of what that means.

You know in 1689 and if I can I'd like to read two paragraphs. Because these two paragraph 1 and paragraph 3 speak to this paragraph 1. It says. Can neither totally nor finally and be eternally saved seeing the gifts and calling source.

He still begets a nurse. And though many storms and floods arise and beat against them. If they shall never be able to take through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible light Time be clouded yet He God is still the same.

And they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation. Where they shall enjoy their purchased possessions. They being engraved upon the palm of his hand and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.

Number one in our salvation is not on the Iran the secured salvation that Jesus has obtained for us. And then it says this in paragraph. And though they may these Christians these believers though they may through the temptation of Satan and the world the Prevalency of corruption remaining in them and the neglect of the means of their preservation.

Though these may for a time continue therein we can scandalize others. All of these things can happen to a believer yet. They shall renew their repentance and be preserved through faith. Amen, that's that's a beautiful summary that we stole from the Presbyterian.

Well, uh, let's we do have listeners still waiting for questions, but I still want to get first into some more practical issues. I think one to start with I actually touched on already of a practical Ramification or implication of reformed theology is that when someone Passes away when someone dies and We don't see any evidence in their life that they have come to Christ We need not be tormented day and night for the rest of our own lives over that.

Obviously, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we never evangelize that person we should Use that as a reminder that we should be diligent to Spread the word and proclaim it to every living and breathing soul.

But at the same time We we don't we need not live in torment wondering if We will actually it wouldn't be any wonder at all whether we need not be in torment with the guilt That we helped to send that person to hell.

Isn't that a practical implication a really powerful one?

Yeah, yeah. And so if we preach the gospel and we trust God to do his thing. And if I didn't preach the gospel Like you said I should I should be convicted of that and this person died without me ever taking the opportunity to share the gospel With him when I had it.

But I also know that the Sovereign God does not only point the end he appoints the means to the end. So if he did not use me through my own neglect, I know that he would have used someone else. Mm-hmm.

Amen, and. Well, tell us some of the other practical implications or ramifications on your mind in regard to the reformed faith.

Of the biggest input perform theology our humility and joy. We we should be the happiest humblest fools on the planet. We know we know that there was no hope for us. We know that there was no way on defending love and grace and we should be happy.

Well in the midst of all things knowing that God not only has saved us, but that he is working some aspects of Calvinism. We are tempted to become Savior as highlighted in reform. Massive input people suffer so all the time and man, they're they happy know how to rejoice in God and in this good.

Amen and.

One of the things that I think is a practical implication of The reformed faith that we are actually most often accused To be guilty of the very opposite of this thing. I know what you're gonna say really?

Okay. Well, I was I was gonna say that.

That.

Reformed theology gives boldness and evangelism and zeal to press on and Persevere and evangelizing even when we don't see fruit at all or at least not for a long time because we know that God has an elect from out of every tribe and people and nation and tongue.

I.

Mean, this is whether the modern missions movement, you know. He knew that God appoints the means as well the end and that no one believes unless there is a preacher preaching the Gospels and You know, he didn't see fruit for years but he confidently and boldly because God evangelism knowing that God can overcome our weaknesses because.

By the way, did you. Was that what you were thinking? I was gonna say.

Okay, I'm gonna overstate it it's not crazy hyperbole here. The greatest evangelist in the of course I mean like look. It just start pick pick a pick a name. Most of them were five-point Calvinist most for that matter.

It doesn't matter. And Whitfield certainly now with Wesley. You have an exception to that rule. Of course, there's there's always. There are great evangelists now. It is true. We can't hide from reality that.

There are I mean just as there were Baptists and Methodists and other kinds of professing Christians in the Ku Klux Klan and still are there are always going to be people that Contradict the faith they claim to possess.