June 28, 2016 Show with Joe Thorn on “The Practical Implications of Reformed Theology”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Who are listening via live streaming?

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 28th day of June

2016.

And A guest that we had originally scheduled to have on the air.

Dayton Harmon.

He had to Dayton Hartman, I'm sorry, he had to reschedule because his wife is

expecting their baby any Moment now and it's going to be another little boy

that they are inviting into the world.

So I am so very happy that once again with very little notice Our friend

Joe Thorne was able to charge in on a white horse and save the day.

Being our guests with very little notice at all.

And Joe Thorne is the founding and lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

He has written two books note to self the disciple.

The disciple of preaching I think isn't this supposed to be the distance did the discipline.

That's right.

Yeah, what's a typo there on your website the discipline of preaching to yourself and

Experiencing the Trinity the grace of God for the people of God.

And he has contributed articles to the ESV's men's devotional Bible.

The ESV story Bible and the mission of God study Bible.

He is currently writing a series of three books on the church for moody publishers.

And today we are discussing the practical implications of Reform theology.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor Joe Thorne.

Thanks for having me on again guys.

That's always a good time.

And you know, just to let you know my guest I.

Thought he had a pretty lame excuse, you know.

Before we go, oh, yeah, let me introduce you to my favorite sound effects machine Reverend

buzz Taylor my co -host.

Hello, good afternoon.

Good to talk to you again and.

Before we go into this very important topic this most misunderstood topic

of Reform theology because there are many people who say there are no practical implications the

reform theology.

But if you could Joe let our listeners know about Redeemer Fellowship.

I know I asked you to describe it every time you come on, but there are people who discover the show.

Every day, in fact, especially since our we have a full -page ad in World Magazine this

month.

And we have been getting new listeners as a result.

It's a full -page ad that happens to be directly next to the story on the death of

World heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali, so it's quite a great place to be in.

But tell our listeners something about Redeemer Fellowship of st. Charles, Illinois.

Fellowship nine years ago and Southern Baptist

serve a

great

congregation.

It is a peaceful Happy place and I I feel kind of bad about

it because it is

genuinely haven't had any in nine

years.

Like complaining about pre we have trauma right where people fall

in really

been.

Now once again because some of our listeners may be scratching their head about acts 29 if

you can explain that.

For the the text that doesn't exist if you could write.

Well.

Acts 29 is a there's a network It's

a network made up of

communicate the idea that this is the

continuing

story on denominational guide.

Now as

you know, Joe.

The critics of Reform theology, in fact dare I say some of the

enemies of reform theology will Say that this is a comical

Discussion or topic that we're having today because they will say there is no practical value to reform

theology.

They will say this is the stuff of egghead conversations in.

Library.

In libraries and studies that are filled with cigar smoke as people just sit around with branders of

sifters of brandy right and discuss things that have really no Practical

value at all on the planet Earth they may titillate the

theological excitement of those who are Nerds or

Bible nerds and so on but this is really Has no real

Practical value at all and explain why you wanted to discuss this very topic today.

One is that that this is

In the realm of the are said by people who have not read

formed literature that is richly devotional.

So they just don't have any any exposure to it.

But on the other hand it turns you into a big -mouthed jerk

and that's been their experience.

And so Theology

not so much for the critics.

So there they will definitely for me

some of the

doctrines of a shell of reformed theology.

But they are not yet reformed in heart and you know my desire is for

deeply to grow deep roots of godliness of

sincerity and and really.

And we can't or shouldn't take it for granted that.

Everybody listening actually knows what we are talking about when we say reformed theology because

that even.

Has.

Some problems behind it.

You have a lot of churches that are a part of a denomination called the Reformed Church

of America.

That has although there are some faithful men in that denomination who are conservative Bible

-believing historically Calvinist men.

But there are also those who would Be liberal or bordering on

liberalism though there are those who are caught up in the Self -esteem

and self -help movements of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller who are both in that denomination.

I I have had conversations with some RCA men.

And when I bring up the doctrines of grace and reformed theology and Calvinism I get one of those looks like a dog has

on its face when it tilts its head.

Right, and they don't even know what I'm talking about.

So you'll have churches on many in many neighborhoods.

That will say first reformed church of this town or what have you and then you also have the

misunderstandings of people who wrongly import the same meeting from

Reform Judaism, which is one of the most liberal

Wings of Judaism.

I think the I think there is a Reconstructionist wing of Judaism that has nothing to do with

theonomy and Christian Reconstruction and it's an even more liberal Form than the Reform Judaism,

but they they think well, I guess if the Reform Jews are Liberal

the Reformed Christians must be liberal.

So if you could let our listeners know basically in summary, of course because this could take a week.

Programs are more to easily.

Yeah.

Yeah, well.

Disregard the the title reformed in in in churches in terms of trying to diagnose what reformed mean.

Because like you said Chris, it's used by a lot of people in a lot of different ways just like the word gospel so

you need to think about it.

Reformed theology is an understanding of Scripture

standing of Scripture an understanding of the revelation of God that

was Seen in historical figures like Saint

Agatha the

Great Awakening.

Modern figures like R .C. Sproul is a classic and so

it's reflect the idea of reformed theology is

articulation of the

sovereignty of God the covenant working and

Our union with Christ and

that is a part of

reformed theology.

But really just those five points is not

the whole down to

it's a pretty big one

theology.

We have a very high view of

man a biblical view of man that shows us to be.

Great, and I'd like to give our email address out now in the event.

There are any listeners who'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name.

Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And.

You may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Which necessitates that you not reveal your identity?

That's.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And one thing that is also true of reformed theology is That it is a theology.

Unlike what some might think?

Wrongly that.

Has unified brothers and sisters in Christ from a number

of varying denominations, I mean you have Reformed Baptists you have Presbyterians

obviously most of whom are reformed but not all.

I've discovered a bizarre Arminian Presbyterian denomination called the I think the Cumberland

Presbyterians or something like that who are actually vehemently anti -calvinist.

But.

You have reformed Anglicans.

You even have Calvinist Methodists which are not that well known today, but in

Wales, especially.

Most of the Calvinist I think at one time were Methodists and you had dr. Martin Lloyd -jones coming out of

that group and so on.

So you have all different kind of Congregationalists

who are reformed or Calvinistic and so on.

So the basic.

Wouldn't the basic summary and I know I've repeated this before the basic summary and you can fill in the blanks here.

But isn't the basic summary of reformed theology is that God alone saves sinners because

sinners cannot even help save themselves.

Yeah, I think that's that's a very good summary.

I mean that a summary has to communicate a central idea, right.

That is critical to the whole and I think that's a great way to introduce people to the basic

and.

That we have living proof right here on this program today.

We have two reformed Baptists and one Presbyterian who all have very similar theology.

It's not identical, but it's all soteriologically Very much the

same if not identical and Buzz is a member of a

PCA congregation here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and this is one of the few times it seems that the reformed

Baptists outnumber the Presbyterians on the show because I Think most of my guests are Presbyterian.

Yeah, but so the.

And of course if you wanted to.

Briefly again, I know this has seemed it may seem ridiculous to go through the TULIP acronym briefly.

But as briefly as you can just so our listeners get more of an idea of what exactly we're talking about.

Right.

Well, the Calvinists did not come up with five points that were important to them.

Mm -hmm.

There was the theological movie

ology and so they articulated five points.

Sent it to the churches and allude to the leadership and said hey, these are our beef with what the church is

teaching today and so.

The church convened and they issued a response to those five points with five points that they say clearly articulate

the truth of Scripture.

These are known as the canons of Dort and these have been formulated

number one total depravity

and this does not mean that every human being is but that every

part of our being body mind soul like every part of our being every action every thought is

corrupted by sin and that our will in

that we will not and Cannot exercise good deed.

Or even faith the gravity means that we are in the worst

situation possible as we stand before God send ourselves.

You and tulip stands for unconditional.

So we I had his

election of these people is in

the man or the woman that moves God to choose them.

Well, this person's really smart.

So I'm going to choose He doesn't it's not based

on anything in us

it is if this died on the cross He died

to act

everyone

then

there

would

be no

hating grace

at a particular moment in their

life.

It may be when they're very young upon

them.

It is irresistible and this isn't that he is saving us.

He is that we

are changed in an instant.

So God's grace and

the P

and God

causes that idle

maniac.

That's not the

idea persevere in faith.

To the end they may backslide their faith may be very weak.

Sometimes they may not look like a Christian.

Now going

back to one thing that you said.

I just want to clarify it for our listeners about limited atonement also called definite atonement

particular redemption Substitutionary atonement even though our minions use that

very often they are wrongly using head because only only a Reformed

Christian can consistently and logically use the term substitutionary time unless you're a full

-blown, you know Universalist.

But.

You said that Christ?

Did not die for the unbelieving and I'm assuming In fact, I know what you meant by

that was the un those that remain in unbelief until death obviously.

Everyone for whom he died was unbelieving at some point.

In fact may have been unbelieving for the majority of their lives.

Yes, it's fair to say that Christ only died for the unbelieving.

We could always we could always nuance this but yeah, Christ did not die.

Never believe right.

Died for the elect who will experience God this

land that was slain before the found.

This one whose salvation is

the cure.

Do believe in this great and we do

have a listener from.

Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Tyler who says what would be the main reason that our minions can't let

go of their golden idol of the heart and Free will.

I'm assuming Tyler's a Calvinist I guess.

But yeah that I think that that is not an exaggeration when many Many

people who profess to be Christian cling on to this concept of free

will like an idol even though their Definition of what free will is is nowhere to be

found in the Bible.

And perhaps you might even want to Not only address Tyler's question why

they can't let that go.

And of course, you'd have to be a mind reader to know that but but.

There there is a sense which even John Calvin believed That men have free will but isn't it that we

act freely according to our nature.

In other words Neither God nor Satan forces us against our will to do anything.

Formed theology has conceived that all men and women are free agents.

That's what we like to use.

Edwards and others would talk about free will but it's explained in the context of our nature.

We are free to do what we want to do and we will only do what we want to do.

And we're responsible for the things that we do.

The reality is, you know, you have the.

You have the like Edwards.

Jonathan Edwards one of the greatest theologians.

Think considered by me or at least one of the greatest thinkers in American.

He would say that all all people have this natural Ability in them to choose right

good and evil.

That that are necessary to make

the natural ability and make choices.

But we do not have the moral ability anymore as sinners to choose and do good.

We have free

to do whatever to be

who I am.

I don't know

why people hold on to this idea.

The desire and

attention and and we you know, we sweet we

read of Islam and things like that where.

It's a scary cold Idea, we don't want to just live in a great big machine where we are a cog and we

don't want to live like made -to -be.

But there are a lot of these people go beyond that and I just ran into one at the Southern Baptist Convention I was there a

few weeks ago with pastor and because he's had a beard and was bald.

I assumed he was a Calvinist.

I.

Wonder why that was.

Yeah turns out he wasn't and.

And he was really concerned about protecting even just recently after church

planted.

And if any one of them believes they're going to heaven.

So

I think

people.

Yeah,

and

the

fact of

the matter is

that?

All these Armenians and those who are in opposition to Unconditional

election and they they recoil in horror about

There only being a certain certain segment of all of humanity that are

Chosen to be saved.

They have to grapple with the note the fact.

That.

Many if not, most of these millions and millions and billions of people are

going to hell right, and if their system of Theology

is true.

I Don't know how they if they were consistent.

Logically consistent with what they believe.

How they could ever have one night's rest?

Knowing that anybody that they know died and went to hell.

Because they if the Armenian system is actually true.

They are very much to blame for that person's damnation because they could have.

More frequently evangelized that person they could have more accurately evangelized that person.

They could have more lovingly Evangelized that person they could have more lovingly Represented

Jesus Christ to that person and the way they lived.

You could go on and on and on and if our minion ism was true.

Sorry pal.

Everybody that you ever known that you've ever known who has died without Christ.

You are partially to blame for their damnation their damnation.

The issue they're underlying all of that is why do some people believe in others?

Don't are they smarter?

Are they more spiritually?

Why does one person but both people hear the same message.

One person believes one person doesn't.

Now as a Calvinist I believe that the only reason that one will believe in another won't.

The only reason that my parents came to believe the gospel is not because I was such a winsome

evangelist.

Big mouth when it came to communicating the truth, but what the difference was is God

Changed their heart.

He like with Lydia and Acts He opened their heart to respond to the message that I had given.

So like, you know, and I

shared the gospel

actually I needed to leave and go to seminary to leave the state.

If I thought that I had the ability to if I

thought it wasn't going to be according to God's sovereign working I never would have left.

I would have convinced a long session of

waterboarding.

I'm not about to risk that or their eternal soul.

The truth is and I and and really when I talked

to even have believed in G

and they say no I wouldn't have.

Like well, there you go.

You understand on some level that God had to do you up now.

Let's talk about what that something really is.

Yeah, well, you know talk about that guilt trip.

I I heard I Will not mention his name because of his popularity and I

don't want anybody stoning me when I leave here, but.

That makes one of us.

A very big name in evangelicalism.

Years ago had a radio program and he was very dedicated to Evangelism

with a very popular track.

That's all I'm gonna say.

But.

He said on his radio show Anybody will believe if the gospel is presented

correctly and I got to thinking about that people that have been praying for lost loved ones and

witnessing to them and pouring their heart out to them and and then they die without Christ and it's like if only I

had learned his steps of Evangelism they would have been saved today.

So so did this guy claim to have a hundred percent track record for everybody who ever watched or listened to his?

His messages has got saved.

Well, he probably got a lot of people to sign on the dotted line.

Well a lot is in all.

When you boil it down to.

God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, you know.

Things kind of go.

I didn't mention his name.

I didn't know you didn't.

I was just saying.

Example.

No, I didn't listen.

This is listen.

All I do is give screwed -up presentations of the gospel.

I'm never gonna do a perfect job.

I'm a mess.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that's.

I used to preach the gospel when I was a brand -new Christian.

I don't drop the f -bomb all the time.

Because that's how I talk.

What do I know?

Oh my goodness.

I had people tell me that people couldn't get saved if I use the new American Standard to witness to them.

Whenever whenever buzz preaches his elders use the f -bomb.

I don't wanna.

I am just kidding folks at Carlisle Reform Presbyterian.

That was a joke.

I know that you would never use that language now.

You know, that's the nice thing about it though Chris is that that you know.

This is the way I put it to my parents when I was explaining to them.

You can't say the wrong thing to the right person.

You can't say the right thing to the wrong person.

It's just you know, if they're you're you're going to see fruit.

If they're elect maybe not right away.

But I mean it's going to work.

Well, you're gonna see some kind of fruit, right?

Yes.

And this is why you can have John Wesley a

very different John Wesley on one side George Whitfield on the other

and they're both preaching the gospel.

They're both giving some different nuances and presentation and yet God used both of those men magnificently to reach the

law.

Okay, we have to go to a break right now and Unless you are not finished with more

of the inner workings of what exactly reformed theology is the nuts and bolts We

can go into the practical implications, but I think that there was a point you were in the middle of making

before Buzz was giving his personal anecdote of a television preacher.

I may be wrong about that.

But

All right, well we'll be going into the main reason why we gathered here today on the air

to Discuss the practical implications of reformed theology.

And the first one off the bat I know is that if you have problems Walking if you have

bursitis or something that you no longer need to walk an altar call down the aisle to be saved.

So that's one practical.

But we're going to a break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor Joe Thorne

of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles, Illinois.

He's also an author and He has become one of our favorite guests here in iron sharpens

iron and we are discussing the practical implications of reformed theology

Otherwise known as Calvinism and otherwise known as the doctrines of sovereign grace.

If you have a question of your own on the subject our email address is Chris Arnzen

at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and before I Have you

Begin the specific area of practical implications Joe.

We do have a listener from Clinton Township Michigan.

Jeff.

How would you guys speak to the believer?

Who has never been sure if they are elect or just hopeful.

I gained comfort from I Gain comfort from 18 Oh

chapter 18 for of the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

But what would you add to that.

When?

Discipling the weak Christian

Christian life.

And certainly and I always start

damn you to hell.

I sins and through him and believe that.

And if they say yes, I say well then if you believe that.

That's that.

This is the answer.

How may we be saved you believe.

And then if people

are part of that is takes time growth.

You know, it comes with maturity.

Even our faith in our kid.

It's not it's not this beautiful shining example.

Be small at times.

And do you find your hope and your comfort in him on the

internet.

Or I'm still

Ignoring the needs of my wife and I'm not putting her first.

And so what we say is that we'll listen.

None of those things can damn you your faith is

in him.

You should have assurance now what you need to do.

Earn from

those and

make sure

of our life and the only means by which We

can be going back to the gulf.

Yeah, the the Bible.

Never tells us that we know the secret counsels of God, but

The Bible also tells us that those who are elect Will be justified and

sanctified.

Good tree will bear good fruit.

There will be evidence of someone if they are the elect.

I remember In the the radio station that I worked for for 15

years When I started to get opportunities to fill in for the regular talk show

host.

There was always a person every time I was on A very polite a man

I believe from the West Indies might have even been from Africa, but he

Was always very troubled as to whether or not he was one of the elect and he was very he lived in

fear.

And he actually believed even though we corrected him many times.

Because he would call in a lot under the alias II just the letter II that's the only thing that he would use to identify himself.

He would always ask.

I'm afraid that even though I Repented years ago and

continue to repent daily and I have placed my trust in Jesus Christ and I am a member of a

Bible believing church and I truly live my life for him, even though I sin and when I sin I

I cry out to him for forgiveness.

But I'm so afraid that when I get to the Lord's throne of judgment He's gonna say you were not one of my

elect be gone.

You worker of wickedness.

I am just so terrified.

He was he was obviously Talking about Matthew 7 in some

degree what the Lord will tell the false converts, but He

was was giving the description of somebody that doesn't exist somebody who has truly

repented and believed and loves the Lord and has followed him for Their entire life and then they wind up

dying and and that isn't they're not holding the lot of the lotto ticket or the lottery ticket That God

has for all of his elect.

They have this this bizarre concept of what that means.

You know in

1689 and if I can I'd like to read two

paragraphs.

Because these two paragraph 1 and paragraph 3 speak to this paragraph 1.

It says.

Can neither totally nor

finally and be eternally saved

seeing the gifts and calling source.

He still begets a nurse.

And though many storms and floods arise and beat against them.

If they shall never be able to take

through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible light

Time be clouded yet He God is still the

same.

And they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation.

Where they shall enjoy their purchased possessions.

They being engraved upon the palm of his hand and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.

Number one in our salvation is not on the

Iran the secured salvation that Jesus has obtained for us.

And then it says this in paragraph.

And though they may these Christians these believers though they may through the temptation of Satan and the world

the Prevalency of corruption remaining in them and the neglect of the means of their preservation.

Though these may for a time continue therein we

can scandalize others.

All of these things can happen to a believer yet.

They shall renew their repentance and be preserved through faith.

Amen, that's that's a beautiful summary that we stole from the Presbyterian.

Well, uh, let's we do have listeners still waiting for questions, but I still want to get first into some

more practical issues.

I think one to start with I actually touched on already of a practical

Ramification or implication of reformed theology is that

when someone Passes away when someone dies and

We don't see any evidence in their life that they have come to Christ We need

not be tormented day and night for the rest of our own lives over that.

Obviously, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we never evangelize that person we should

Use that as a reminder that we should be diligent to

Spread the word and proclaim it to every living and breathing soul.

But at the same time We we don't we need not live in torment

wondering if We will actually it wouldn't be any wonder at all whether we need not be in

torment with the guilt That we helped to send that person to hell.

Isn't that a practical implication a really powerful one?

Yeah, yeah.

And so if we preach the gospel and we trust God to do his thing.

And if I didn't preach the gospel Like you said I should I should be convicted of that and this person died without me

ever taking the opportunity to share the gospel With him when I had it.

But I also know that the Sovereign God does not only point the end he appoints the means to the end.

So if he did not use me through my own neglect, I know that he would have used someone else.

Mm -hmm.

Amen, and.

Well, tell us some of the other practical implications or ramifications on your mind in regard

to the reformed faith.

Of the biggest input perform theology our

humility and joy.

We we should be the happiest humblest fools on the planet.

We know we know that there was no hope for us.

We know that there was no way on

defending love and grace and we should

be happy.

Well in the midst of all things knowing that God not only has saved us, but

that he is working

some aspects

of Calvinism.

We are tempted to

become

Savior as highlighted in reform.

Massive input people

suffer so all the time and man, they're they happy

know how to rejoice in God and in this

good.

Amen and.

One of the things that I think is a practical implication of The reformed faith that we

are actually most often accused To be guilty of the very

opposite of this thing.

I know what you're gonna say really?

Okay.

Well, I was I was gonna say that.

That.

Reformed theology gives boldness and evangelism and zeal to press on

and Persevere and evangelizing even when we don't see fruit at all or at least not for

a long time because we know that God has an elect from out of every tribe and people

and nation and tongue.

I.

Mean, this is whether the modern missions movement, you know.

He knew that

God

appoints

the means as well the

end and that no one believes unless there is a preacher preaching the Gospels and You know, he didn't

see fruit for years but he confidently and

boldly because God

evangelism knowing that God can

overcome our weaknesses because.

By the way, did you.

Was that what you were thinking?

I was gonna say.

Okay, I'm gonna overstate it it's not crazy hyperbole here.

The greatest evangelist in the of course I mean like look.

It just start pick pick a pick a name.

Most of them were five -point Calvinist most for that

matter.

It doesn't matter.

And Whitfield certainly now with Wesley.

You have an exception to that rule.

Of course, there's there's always.

There are great evangelists

now.

It is

true.

We can't hide from reality that.

There are I mean just as there were Baptists and Methodists and other kinds of

professing Christians in the Ku Klux Klan and still are there are always going to be

people that Contradict the faith they claim to possess.

We do have Calvinists.

We do have reformed Pastors and professors and teachers and who are as

dry as dust, right?

You have Preaching that is no more than a lecture at times.

You.

There seems to be no difference between a sermon preached in a Bible study taught.

You know you you have people gathered in church that might as well be in the

classroom, right of a Collar college professors lecture on some

theological topic.

There seems to be no apparent passion for The loss to come to Christ, etc.

Well, why do you think that we have this reputation and it's not without some evidence that it's there.

Sure, and if I'm honest, I mean look I'm not a very good because at times people can

go like man that wasn't very Christian.

Yeah, and I know I'm not a very good.

Calvin.

You complain a lot for a guy.

Are you complaining about his Providence?

But I think a big part of what happened among a lot of

we have.

We have mistaken the knowledge of the Bible, you know.

We have become Standing some of

the these collect and we want to know the

answers.

And we want to be right and we don't want to.

It's Easy for us to just about

no knowing God.

This is a big difference between this is not having fact

and that relation.

If I know God as father that that broadens and

deepens my faith if I know if I know God as buttons and

deepens my understanding of God and

those things should have a Corresponding impact on me

than there is a to find and repent of.

But you know, the opposite is also true.

I mean, I recall years ago when I was in the

Pentecostal churches Paying attention one time to just the the normal

language.

My pastor was a good friend of mine so, you know, I don't want to be saying too much disparaging about him, but I

Paid attention to the stuff.

He was sharing with me one time and I realized how there was no Biblical base to all these things.

He was saying about how the Spirit moves.

I mean, this is a guy that's telling you how to live my life to please God and it was totally void

of Scriptural foundation.

It was all you know, well the Spirit does this in these cases and you know, so forth and How

can people don't realize the that they're totally without foundations if they don't learn

theology.

Did I make that?

Clear enough.

Why the silence.

I don't get it.

Yeah, you were ostracan.

Oh my.

Zeal without knowledge.

Yeah is dead but knowledge without zeal is useless.

Yes, that's that's the point.

It was useless because it wasn't true.

Right.

I mean these things should make us alive.

Yes, it's not because I've got answers because I know God better and I can be known more

fully.

I mean these like when I you know,

and I you know, we have a we have a guy here young man named Travail.

He's a he's a in a black.

Hmm, so he's

got the he

has not just the cadence and the

mannerisms and he brings that Enthusiasm and that earnestness

with the truth.

Now, of course, of course, he always does it

by the way.

I heard one of my my most favorite lines.

Against baptismal regeneration.

From a young black preacher I saw on TV.

He was on a talk show or something.

And I don't know if he was nine.

He could have been nine.

I remember him being very young, but he said You know baptism by water is

not gonna save you if you go into that water a wet.

If you go into that water a devil, you're gonna come back out a wet devil.

And I love that line, I remembered it and I saw that probably 25 years ago that yeah.

We have to go to another break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own and we do have several people.

Patiently waiting at least.

I hope they're waiting patiently, but they're waiting anyway.

To have their questions asked and answered we'll get to you as soon as possible after the break.

But our email address if you'd like to join them with a question on the air.

For Joe Thorne our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

See HR is a RN Z in at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Joe Thorne and our discussion of the practical implications of reform theology.

I am Chris Arnzen host of iron

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Well, oh that last commercial is for some reason not airing so we will press forward and

If you'd like to join us on the air the question of your own.

Yes that one.

What's gonna have to wait now If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for our guest Joe Thorne.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH r .i .s. A -r -n Zen at gmail .com as we discuss the practical

implement implications of Reform Theology.

We have David in either Ada or Ada, Ohio.

I vote for Ada a what do you think Joe a da in Ohio?

Is that Ada or Ada?

It's Ada in Michigan.

I know.

Oh, really?

I'm from Buffalo.

Originally in one of the suburbs is Lancaster.

You never say that down near Lancaster here, right?

Alrighty, well anyway David asks.

I heard Charles Stanley say God has done all he can do now.

It's up to you.

Can you speak to the problems that have come along since Finney etc when it comes to

presenting the the tie Gospel and evangelizing.

I'm not sure what the Thai gospel means.

That may be a typo.

Is there.

An.

Altar call in the Reformed churches.

I think yeah, this is this is kind of got a few typos in it.

He said later call, but I think he meant altar call.

Well, you know, I do know a couple of Calvinist pastors and churches who do have

altar calls, but I know that's not the but not at all the typical thing that you

would find.

And why don't you explain that Joe why is that a very rare thing amongst

Reformed and Calvinistic Christians.

And then you could also go on to.

The whole God has done all he can do now.

It's up to you.

Well, let me do it in reverse order.

Okay, yeah, that's what he asked.

In the reverse order.

So yeah, I mean there's a famous moody tract where you know

God's a 99 and I understand what they're saying.

It is your response of our responsibility

all men and women indiscriminate the problem with.

Theologically with what they're actually saying or what they may be unintentional is that

it makes it sound like God has done his best.

But couldn't really pull it off.

It sounds like you know God did what he could and now his hands are tied and he's waiting for you to finish

the project.

And that is never how scripture in the cross or

God finished.

Yes, so theologically there are a lot of problems there.

You know the altar call, you know,

especially problematic in the way.

Typically it about if you want to believe in Jesus then,

you know.

Come forward or if you want to believe in Jesus today right now pray this prayer.

And so I've seen a big event.

I've seen Louise Plow do this.

Oh, yeah, they'll

do the prayer together and he says if you prayed

that well.

Here in like why I'm right in my prayer, but they may not have faith.

So the reason that there aren't a lot of altar calls.

We don't do

all instead of adding to

the gospel throughout making strong

earnest

your sins

forgiven

in eternity secured.

We make earnest appeals to be a

formulaic prayer.

Context of that

fear is

we don't

but we

don't do that here.

There is a way to do an altar call.

And in fact a

contemple if you want to talk more hang out after

and so you can

say forward after

the third why.

Yeah, and It's amazing that the churches that that do this

don't say that there are three ordinances of the church.

Because it really has become a third ordinance so much so that There are people

who are horrified if they visit your church and you don't have an altar call, right?

Actually in my denomination the Southern Baptist Convention, yeah.

Well churches were.

That was exactly.

People have said I will not go to a church that doesn't have one.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, and we do have a Listener.

Oh, it's actually our friend from Ada, Ohio again David

who says does the Reformed faith teach the salvation of All who have not lived

long enough Or are not mentally capable to know the difference between good and evil.

He's talking about infant salvation here, right and also salvation of those who are mentally

handicapped and there is Difficult disagreement even amongst the Reformed on

this.

Charles Spurgeon Strongly believed that every single infant that

perished in infancy Would not have died unless he or she was of the elect

right.

And you have a tiny handful of People who

profess to be Calvinists who say that those infants will definitely not be in heaven

but the majority seem to Have a an agnostic position on this where they

say that we cannot really know with certainty What the state of the death of

the infants are.

And what is your response?

Yeah, well because it's such all of that.

From you have to remove

them and deal with it biblically.

Feel not worried about what we're

gonna tell.

And your your summary I think is very in terms of

perspectives in the Reformed faith now.

What now as a as a patent infant?

Oh, yeah.

And.

David when his child was sick and And dying not

dead but dying he was

he was

rejoiced.

Well, he

will not come to me.

He knew it all.

Infant.

Beyond there

are other passages

That we can

say all who

die in infancy or are

all elect the

benefits of the cross.

Yeah, I agree with you and a lot of Reform people that I have discussed this with

have dismissed that text.

And they will say that David was merely speaking of the grave and I was I always say how on

earth did that give him comfort.

Argument.

Put that guy on the line.

Is now a rotting corpse.

I can't to be a rotting corpse next to my.

Well, I do hear it though it's consistent.

No, I've heard it too.

Well, you know she all and great like yeah, listen.

We all put Hebrew and none of us really know what we're talking about.

Let's talk about the theology here.

There is there is no

Solomon's

mode and

I do know that.

Al Mohler fellow Southern Baptist along with you who is a thoroughgoing Calvinist

he Believes that infants will certainly be in glory with Christ if they die

in infancy.

And by the way, I want our listeners to be clear that no Calvinist or

Sovereign Grace believing Christian or reformed Christian Ever would say if they know

what their theology is that an infant is going to heaven because it is pure and perfect right

and and and.

Does not require a Savior, right?

And this is where now.

I don't know what dr Mohler's position is today, but back in the 90s He and dr. Aiken wrote an article on

infant salvation and in that they argued for more than.

Really because I had I had read an article about by dr. Mohler that I'm almost

certain was a One within the last decade that that would have

taught the certainty of infant.

Salvation but well, that's good.

And I he argued for that in

the article.

It's actually don't become me.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, I understand what you mean.

Okay, so they're not they're not yet condemned until all are

going to heaven, but it's not That I would

yes.

No most.

I don't in fact, I don't know personally I'm not friends with any Calvinist

and I haven't and I've only met a handful,

but they seem to you.

Yeah, I knew one I met one yeah, I am and this is a different one than buzz knows but.

Yeah, and I'm not going to mention him because he may have changed his mind.

I haven't spoken to him in quite a while.

But he was no.

Average.

Quote quote layman either.

He was quite a brilliant Apologist who has mysteriously disappeared from the

apologetic scene and I don't know where he is right now.

And we had a very lengthy argument about that issue.

He was he was mocking my My using a John

the Baptist in the womb right of his mother leaping for joy in the presence of

Christ.

And I said, why would it be impossible.

Because he was insisting that You cannot Enter heaven without faith.

And I said why could not.

God who can do anything?

Give faith even to an infant that was one of his own that he knew was going to call.

He was calling home to himself.

Why couldn't he give that infant faith like he did to John the Baptist and he just dismissed it as nonsense.

Is that you know, maybe I mean it's not and how

possible is it for him?

Right, right, right.

Even though he's a full -grown man.

How possible right?

Right.

There you go.

Impossible without God's sovereign grace.

So I just I think like well, okay.

But now you're talking about intellectual ability and

you

know, one

of the things

that I also turn to

is that.

Whenever hell and Eternal damnation and torment are mentioned in the

scriptures.

You never have an instance of an infant going there.

You never have someone Being described as only being there because they

possess the inherited sin of Adam.

You have rebels who are consciously Yeah rebellious and who have were

liars and a false teaching and on and on but anyway.

And our in our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have another question from Tyler and mastic Beach, Long Island.

How can our minions believe that man's will contributes to salvation with verses like

John? 113 and Romans 916 which clearly Obliterate

synergism.

Well, they obviously when he comes to proof texting they'll just come up with texts that they

Obviously, we would believe they're twisting even if unconsciously they're twisting.

But if you have a response to that.

Yeah, look I know sometimes I'll run into a person.

They.

Love these verses they love all of Scripture and that's how they preach the gospel.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Like leave your sin behind that we make those appeals because.

That's that's the imperative right?

Like that is every man is responsible to do that.

We can't do it.

So on to the things

spoken by Paul,

so she would not

have responded

positively to the gospel.

She would not have believed savingly on.

So the appeal is there.

Choose today.

Believe repent.

The appeal is there the imperative is there.

And until God changes the hearts and.

One of the things that I think is a practical a powerful practical implication of the doctrines of grace or

Calvinism or reformed theology is Kind of will not kind of is very much related to

what I mentioned earlier.

About the peace we can have even when those we love die with no evidence of

faith in Christ.

We can have peace with God no matter what is going on in our lives no matter what kind of trial or.

Tribulation or.

Whatever we are experiencing.

We know that Romans 8 28 is true that God will work all things

together for the good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose and.

The Arminian claims the same Verse.

Obviously, but it really is not Entirely logically consistent with the rest

of what they believe.

Is it?

You know the an

exercise.

These

are true person dies and they

all apply but the

truth is I've shared

the gospel with them a lot.

I don't know.

I don't spend

much time.

They God is good.

God is sovereign.

We all get what we deserve.

I wouldn't want to

give anybody false.

Hope I'd have an abusive Man who was hated by his entire family

who was not an unrepentant sinner.

I don't give any of those people false.

Hope where I'm at.

Amen.

And Obviously We have that even more

sure peace in the midst of trial because It's it's not

like things are happening by accident that God is somehow moving around like chess pieces

To make them work.

We believe that God ordained them He intended them they have purpose.

That's one of the main things That has come out whenever my dear friend.

Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries has debated Those who are opposed to reform theology

the Arminian and those outside of sovereign grace.

There is so much purposelessness in the things that occur on this earth and

nothing would be more of a Hindrance to joy and peace

that I can think of is that there are there are random acts of purposelessness occurring all around

me that are bringing horror and and Grief and sadness and despair into

my life.

Right and the idea that what God could do something.

But he won't on the printing that because that I know

that idol again that our listener was talking about that golden idol.

That.

Listen, I went up when my wife and I we were dating and she was the right

so she had to be the right size right size and She was fine.

We were great friends.

I can't we're not on the same page.

Our can't have my

wife saying curse God and die.

I can't have my wife saying God doesn't do anything.

God's not in me.

You know, I have to lock my

Right there, but that's it's really really important

that this idea that

God called

Ian's coming

into wicked thing in your life.

And then I'm gonna punish them for doing it Restore you after it.

You're responsible for what we do.

And that mystery intention hat, you know.

I don't want to minimize the problem in Christianity today that is rampant.

The.

When taken to its extreme is a heresy of individualism Where people don't

believe in the necessity of a corporate gathered body of the believers known as the church.

They don't believe in the necessity of submitting to elders and all that.

But I can tell you that there is something that magnified my

own appreciation and joy of my one -on -one

personal intimate private relationship with God

When I discovered the true meaning and joy of definite Atonement and even unconditional

election because it was no longer Jesus hanging on that cross

and even though an Arminian may never say this but in reality the If there are

logically consistent Jesus is yelling out.

I hope that I save all of you.

No, he's saying Chris Arnzen I'm taking your sin upon me and you

will Come to me.

You will not only come to me in faith on this earth, but you will come to me for eternity and glory.

I'm doing this for you Chris Arnzen and that made it it just revolutionized my

understanding of.

The cross.

I can't believe you just said that because that honestly is my exact experience.

Mm -hmm.

Well, I was.

I was converted.

No back.

Wow.

I don't think we ever brought that up before.

Never stepped foot into a church until I was 17.

Never heard the gospel until I was 17.

Yeah, so so I was converted while reading the gospel of Matthew.

There no altar call.

I'd be mined and my.

And so I

never struggled with election.

I never struggled

atonement.

And

so and at

the end of that I

was Jesus died for me.

Amen, I mean he actually he didn't die for me to make it possible.

Right, he didn't buy me an ice cream cone.

And it's like he bought everybody an ice cream cone for me by name like you just said

and it yeah.

And it's not a faceless.

Nameless sea of humanity that he died for right?

Yeah, he didn't buy a bucket of chicken for everybody.

And if they figure out where the bucket of chicken is they can have some.

Hahahaha.

Anyway, I got this for you.

Not to make light of salvation.

But I mean it's it's more of a proper understanding it up my very

dear friend.

Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island.

I know I've repeated this story.

So bear with me those of you listening who are beginning to roll your eyes at me repeating another story.

But um, I loved the way he put this years ago.

It still burned into my memory.

He said imagine.

You're a little boy and you climb up on your daddy's knee and you say to your daddy Daddy,

do you love me?

And your daddy says, of course I do.

I love everyone in the world.

And you say no daddy, but do you love me?

Didn't you hear me.

Son, of course, I do.

I love all the little children in the world.

That's not really what you want to hear is.

Kind of love it and listen.

The reformed tradition argues that God has a benevolent love for everyone.

They thought that God is good to all but he that

he has given

tonight.

Are there FBI agents looking for you via helicopter?

I hear.

Yeah Oh.

You know what, yeah, I'm in my office and I have to have a I have to have my window open.

I'm sorry, but I stepped on you right in the middle of a vital moment.

Yes, and in fact it also obviously with Paul's Command to husbands love your

wives as Christ loved the church.

The spousal love that Christ has for his church is elect is not Love we

have for everybody.

It's not Christ.

It's not husband's love your wives and every other woman in the world as

Christ loves his church.

It's even like this in the old sacrifices were being made by the high priest.

Those were not made for the whole world.

Those are made for the people of God.

Yeah.

This is not a weird idea.

It's only a weird idea to people that have really grown up under a different system of thought.

But if you just get back to what the Bible actually is limited to is

never broadly applied.

Thank you buzz for reminding me about our last station break and we'll be right back over these messages.

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Well another Evidence of the sovereignty of God and things not working the way that you plan them to

or hope them to with the last commercial.

There wouldn't air but we will have to double up the next time that we are airing commercials.

On our next program.

But anyway, if you've just tuned us in we have had for the last 90 minutes

Joe Thorne on our program to discuss the practical implications of the sovereignty of God and.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And.

This question Joe as far as a practical implication Is not as

easily explained or we can't be flippant about it as we might have a

tendency to think or do but

One of the things that is a powerful practical implication of the sovereignty of God is

That when we when we climb out of the pit of sin that we fall into

in repentance We can praise God that as a child of his

elect before the foundation of the world Who cannot be snatched from the tight

clutch the tight grasp of Christ?

We will not as other denominations and theologies teach we will not ever

lose that salvation.

Obviously we can never use that as a

License to live licentiously have to at the risk of being redundant there

but Paul obviously said that grace is not to give us

some kind of a notion that we are to become libertines and Live in any way

we choose without any concern for the afterlife but at the same time when we know that we

have Climbed out of that pit of sin and repentance.

We know that we have a father who has always been there waiting with his arms stretched open to us it's not

like he's got his back turned to us until we Return to him.

We are always his because he has elected us before time even began, right?

Yeah, nothing neither height nothing

that can set.

This was when I was converted

by a Relief to the influence of a godly young.

After a while eventually I was converted and I kept finding all of these doctrines in the Bible and just reading the Bible.

And I Would ask the pastor the Bible says that God chose us in Christ before it he would go.

No no.

No, and they kept pushing back.

They started calling me a Calvinist.

I didn't know it and the last time no one

could take us out of Jesus hand.

So my salvation is secure and he said no that's right.

No one can take you but you can jump out of

it.

And I just made sense of it

to me.

And I think that again, it's this it's this very American.

I

doctrines.

But once I finally said I just I'm gonna give up on what they're saying and I'm just gonna go

now.

In this election season.

I think one of the practical implications of this belief that we have is.

That.

Although we are not to be irresponsible in

And lazy when it comes to voting we are not to

Sit back like hyper Calvinist and or even Viewing

God like a deist and you know, whatever happens happens that kind of a thing.

But at the same time we know that no matter who wins this presidential election

God is in control.

God is the one that sat that person in a seat of power.

Yep, and it may very well to bring a judgment upon the country

where we live so that true repentance among our fellow citizens can

finally come.

But it disturbs me when I hear even from some Calvinist Christians.

That.

For you not to be supporting with great fervency and vigor and enthusiasm Donald

Trump.

Yeah, that are you kidding me?

If you don't support Trump and vote for him Hillary's gonna win and then the world's gonna end.

What's wrong with you?

You want Hillary Clinton and though and the White House for the next four to eight years.

Are you kidding me?

Do you know what's gonna happen to us?

And I mean what she could potentially get Jesus off that throne.

I mean, she's a powerful woman.

So I just got done.

I just I was yes, I just got done preaching through Daniel.

No charts the theme of the whole book in

Daniel kept

getting.

He's got to rise

up.

In that case people will

be vindicated.

Don't I agree with you?

We should be active knowledgeable involved in understanding why both of those candidates are complete lunatics.

They're not a good option either.

I'm preparing for four

years of embarrassment I really am.

I'm gonna be right and our country will be humbled and human.

So I want to predict it when we're all gonna be human.

Yeah.

Yeah, the Christians fail to.

Recognize that if you are There's it's there's one thing if you are going into the

privacy of your voting booth and saying well I really don't want Hillary Clinton who is openly

in favor of Abortion up until the ninth month and and is just openly

wicked.

So I I would prefer that Trump win this election and then they throw the switch.

But there's a difference between that and somebody who is on some kind of joyful bandwagon

when they are they are their public testimony as a Christian and.

The.

Reliability of the Bible and the authenticity of the gospel may be all called

into question when this person may turn out to be

the the hugest embarrassment to the American president presidency that we've ever had.

Right.

And It's amazing when I listen to or watch Fox News how many of these commentators not all

of them, but many of them Will will will look upon

these Conservatives who have reluctantly said well, I would rather Trump win than

Hillary.

So I'm supporting them.

And they look at those people with wrinkled noses and say what kind of an endorsement is that?

They should be really supporting him.

Well, these same people already had declared that they thought he was a liar.

What are they.

What are they supposed to they themselves reveal that they're liars, too?

Yeah.

Interesting.

Because you know here at Redeemer,

we've got young guys with empty nesters and families.

We've got all these different kinds of people.

Rich people and poor people.

Any old ladies with tattoos.

I'll tell you what.

I was I just said.

If you look at my Instagram feed I put took a picture of a copy of my

age.

Well, I know one thing about old ladies with tattoos.

Those tattoos don't look anything like what they originally began.

We have people here who vote Democrat.

We have people here I

believe so how the church

discipline hearings going with the non -nra members.

They have to sit in the crying room.

So, I mean the point is is that nobody gets riled up.

We're all trying to make

strategic maybe right

and we're trying to do our best.

So we cut people from a lot of leniency of it.

Do what you think is best use your brain use the Bible.

But ultimately the

end comes

well.

I want to make sure that we don't miss anything that you actually intended to say about a practical

implication or.

Plural.

Implications about The sovereignty of God.

So if you could before we run out of time here one last thing.

I read a book back in 94 95.

Yes, and one

wonderful woman.

Who want to go a little

bit in the back.

But listen to what he says about the practical importance of this doctrine of God's sovereign

such as many

people are inclined to believe.

Vital and individual truth which are

designed and adapted

and subject is not as

many imagined a mere thorny and noise men without

any profit.

But a solid discussion eminently trains us

to human.

Amen, and you know, it's

funny

how.

Wedded we reformed Christians are.

Or tend to be to our confessions of faith and catechisms.

Why is it that we seem to very frequently forget the very first question

in the shorter catechism?

What is the chief end of man.

The chief end of man.

Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him.

Forever.

Obviously with the reform people never forget about the first part but the second part just seems to

be very often vanishes from our Christian life

experience.

I Met many a reformed Baptist and I know this is a press

Presbyterian catechism.

Maybe that's the reason but I met many a reformed Baptist who

they they must have Imitated as a role

model for their Christian walk Lurch from the Adams family.

I mean they just kind of you know speak like this and Everything is

very.

Serious, you know, but I get that I get that we all have different temperament, you know.

And my steady state is to frown.

I just I do.

I like generally watching smile.

I'm like, I'm happy to my happy face.

I.

Naturally enough.

I'm laughing but that's the thing these doctrines that the knowledge of God that makes me smile that

changes my heart.

That's what warms me.

And so yeah that the idea that we are lifeless unfun Christians is.

It's a blemish on the knowledge of God.

It's a blemish on our doctrine.

It is we should be.

We have a lot of pastors that come up to Redeemer.

Especially younger guys that are.

And one thing that they say again and again is all you elders.

You really like each other you hang out a lot you laugh all the time.

You guys are always busting each other's chops and having a good time.

But then you're super serious about ministry and all these things they said is that normal and we just say like I don't know.

But normal what.

That's how we poppy.

Well, there's something else to consider too and in this whole discussion and that is some of these guys.

Maybe they seem very starchy when they're behind the pulpit because right they have a view of

worship that is very high.

But if you were to go to just a Bible study with them, they'd be a totally different person.

No one I heard and speak at other churches and I thought he was one of the funniest guys.

And then when I heard him speak in his own pulpit, wow.

Yeah, by the way a somber.

Yeah, I'm not advocating clowns from behind the pulpit, right.

So, I mean there's that that gets in there too is the fact that sometimes it's just because they they don't believe that it's proper.

To have levity or anything like that.

Yeah, I'm speaking.

Yeah, I was speaking about in in general areas of life.

You're at a picnic or sitting around a coffee table.

You got a look at the whole man.

You're like right now we're trying to close and

it

may not happen because we have to agree on certain things.

And so it's put me in a more of a sober mood.

So people see me today.

I'm a little more sober or somber I mean

Hopefully I'm

always sober.

Yeah, and if I want more of

it, I know where to find it.

I got to go to these doctrines.

I got to go to all the doctrines in the Bible and embrace them in some of the most profound.

And

that he

is not Just God my god.

Amen and I even though we've touched on this already in various ways,

but wouldn't you say a really powerful Implication of reformed

theology and ramification is that when consistently held?

The doctrines of grace or reformed theology or Calvinism prevents us from

boasting prevents us from arrogance and Prevents us from also

Striving with anxiety.

That this is all up to us as if we're on some kind of a

Pelagian treadmill Where we work and work and work

and we have to Keep pressing forward or else.

We'll going to lose it all and it's all because it's all up to us.

And that the the doctrines of sovereign grace just totally Annihilates that doesn't it on

both ends both the the arrogance and the pride and the boasting and

also the despair of.

The Pelagian

treadmill that in

our church

named doctrine of old

because they've been anyways and

For the and for though they are now have boldness and confidence not

arrogant because yes Jesus Christ

God says this is my son with whom I am well pleased what we are in him.

So God is now well pleased with us.

The same doctrine has different effects in different people.

Yeah, before we run out of time.

Can we have the titles of your books again?

Yeah.

It is called

note to

self.

The

second

book is

another to have a

proper

understanding.

Well, I definitely want to have you back to discuss this book.

Sure, when when when is that book gonna be out?

Well, those are three different books.

Oh, okay.

They are all.

Okay, so it's a series.

Yeah, okay and our friend in Mastic Beach, Long Island Tyler

Wants to know I love this this quote by Stephen Lawson who I've had on this program.

He's one of my favorite guests as well.

Stephen Lawson.

He has said that man has permission to Believe

but not the ability to believe if you want to comment on that.

I really I really think that's an excellent way of Describing the

total depravity of man and if anybody is wondering about the total

depravity of man just go to Romans chapter 3 verses 10 through 18 that will

Summarize it in a nutshell and I don't know why anybody could leave That

that those series of verses Who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture

and and not believe in the total depravity of man?

But anyway, if you could.

Well, let's put a real fine point on it.

He just said no one can come to me.

No one no one can.

So we do not have this moral spirit

if we have that's on

you.

And we're out of time Joe.

We're out of time.

I'm sorry I know your website is Joe Thorne net and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is A far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you next time on iron sharpens iron radio.

Thanks guys.