What Is It? with Mark Spence Stumps Abortion Supporters with ONE Question!

I'm mr. Smalley. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy.

I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you. Many people have questions about God in the Bible with so many different views about God and how to interpret the Bible. Many people wonder where they can turn to get biblical answers.

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Abortion, Slavery, and the Question of Ownership

We're going to be talking about the issue of abortion and that's why I started with the debate that what that Mets like had with David Smalley there where David did not like the question I asked him because he just spent two hours saying that the Bible is wrong because It argues for slavery, which is immoral.

Well David Smalley didn't like the fact that abortion Claims ownership of another human being the same thing. He was arguing two hours against and suddenly he wants to say abortion is good But slavery is bad.

Hmm. Here's the difference between the two. Abortion when successful always leads in death of a person you claim you own slavery does not so. With that now some of you are saying well, where is drew? Well last week as you guys know, I was in California.

I'll talk about that in a few moments. I was in California working with a great ministry living waters doing their ambassadors Academy leading a team there and. So I could not do the show because I was busy and so drew got some folks to come in talking about Postmillennialism, so that's it.

He's gone. We tossed him. That's it. He's never coming back. Actually, no, he's just really busy but yeah, I I will start off by just saying that I got a lot of flack because People thought I was going post-millennial that I would let people that believe in post-millennialism on here to make the arguments.

Well, we had a lot of people's asking questions about post-millennialism. Drew is one. And he got some other regulars to the show to come in and talk about it. I hope it was helpful for you. I Have no problem with allowing other views that are not heretical to be explained here.

So that is what we do. So this is a and D is saying it was a very informative show. Thank you D. So KT skipped last week. I hope it wasn't just because it was post-mill but. But yeah so What we do want to do though is let you guys know that The first at least the first part of the hour we're gonna be talking about a new film.

With a friend of mine who I'm very excited to have on and we're gonna talk about that. It's gonna be about the topic of abortion and at the top of the hour. You have any questions? Come on in go to apologetics live .com.

Go there. Click on the little duck icon. That's the stream yard icon give permission for your You know browser to use your mic and your camera ask any question you have because as I say every week I can answer any Question you have about God and the Bible because I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

So with that, I do know. Some folks are seeing me wear glasses. Something did happen while I was in, California. I don't know what but all of a sudden I'm having double vision and wearing the glasses seems to help.

So I'm wearing glasses. I don't typically do that. But let's talk about California. Let me bring in our guest. Mr. Mark Spence from Living Waters. How are you, sir?

He's muted. He's in his car. By the way, I am in my car and I am doing well here in sunny, Southern, California. It's the hottest day of the year. I think it's About 80 degrees. So that's warm right now.

And you're you're in the car because you wanted to go for a drive and and do the podcast.

Yeah, listen, I have a house filled with people and because I have a house filled with people We would be interrupted a million times. So the only possible place to be able to do anything like this would be in my car or in the studio at work.

But we were filming all day today. Different things so it was time to get out of there.

All right. So before we before we jump to the film I want to get your take on something. I was gonna do this as part of the the intro with Drew but you'll be able to hear this I know you're on your phone.

You won't be able to see it as well but I don't know if you've seen this yet, but I want to share the Sparkle Creed With us if you haven't seen this.

As a sibling child of God I believe in the rainbow spirit who shatters our image of one white light and refracts it into a rainbow of Gorgeous diversity. I believe in the Church of Everyday Saints as numerous creative and resilient as patches on the age well whose feet are grounded in mud and whose eyes gaze at the stars and wonder.

I Believe in the calling to each of us.

What do you think of that mark. Wow. Okay. Yeah. No, listen, I've I saw the first five seconds of that rant somewhere I don't know whether it was Twitter or someplace. I tend to not watch or listen to things like that unless I'm ready to kind of discuss it.

And I didn't catch everything that she had said, but what I what I heard was utter dog walk. I mean it was that was pretty bad and it was filled with a lot of Issues a lot of problems that I think that she would even agree if she was reasonable.

I take it that was a female that was a female pastor in quotes. Yeah, no such thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, listen, that's not what the Bible teaches and it's really that simple. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Anything of what she had said. I was trying to find something good, but she just kept going and that's very dangerous.

Don't know where she got that mantra. The only thing I found good was when she mentioned Jesus Christ. But everything else was you know, he's of two fathers. I don't know who how she gets that one.

I guess a different Jesus. Yeah, right. That's a different Jesus. So she's not talking about the Jesus of the Bible. You may spell the name Jesus the same way we spell the name Jesus in the English vernacular.

But we're talking about two different beings. Most certainly so so that becomes an important thing.

You've dealt with a lot of different world religions. You know, you're actually you're your family background. You have Mormons. You're from a Mormon. You're not you from a Mormon background, but your family.

Yeah, right. If I remember correctly you're even a descendant of.

Brigham Young, right? Joseph Smith. Yes, I'm told right. I my my aunt who is Mormon and her husband is a bishop inside At a Mormon Ward. I was told that I'm a descendant of Joseph Smith. He'd be kind of turning around inside of his grave.

Kind of freaked out on what I do. But I mean, we're all descendants of Adam and Eve. So, yep.

And so so when you talk to someone who's Mormon this same issue comes up, doesn't it? I mean, it's a different Jesus isn't not it is right.

So obviously we know that Latter-day Saints will agree with everything that you say when it comes to words. But the terminology is different. So the illustration that I like to carry out is. You know imagine if somebody came up to you and said hey I was hanging out with your friend John the other day I went.

Really? You mean I mean you were in New Zealand. And he goes, yeah. Yeah. No, I was not in New Zealand, but I don't know why you'd say that Mark. That's kind of crazy. I said well cuz my my friend John is in New Zealand.

He's all alright. Let's just get past that. So he's got some really crazy dreadlocks. I got no. My friend John does not have dreadlocks. He's bald unless he was wearing a wig. He's oh, yeah, but he's got a crazy accent a southern.

I go. No, he doesn't have an accent at all. He doesn't speak at all. He speaks sign language. So as we go on and on and on we see that we are talking about two different people. So the name is the same but as we go into greater detail, we will see that.

We're not talking about the same person. Yeah.

So let's before we get into what is it? We got someone backstage that was with us last week and maybe we could talk a little bit about. We're what we were doing last week, but a guy from my team Mr. Jimmy DeSantos Was with us and and Jimmy and I will be seeing each other next week as well.

Hearts for the losses. Jimmy works with hearts for the lost and striving attorney and hearts for lost will be in Indianapolis Next Friday and Saturday doing an event from training and outreach. So. So Jimmy you you enjoyed, California, though.

It's it's better than Texas weather-wise I suppose but the gas is a way expensive. I was like man, I could I could handle this 65 degrees in the morning kind of thing. It's a hundred and five today in Texas.

So yeah, I enjoyed the weather a whole lot. And of course, you know that the time we spent out there. Learning growing, you know going out and witnessing that was excellent. But can't add you before we get you know any further.

De los santos in. Yeah, so here's the thing. It's actually three three words that los santos which means of the Saints. So, you know God chose me from before the foundation of the world as it says in Ephesians chapter 2.

Delos on the record. Folks who see this for the record. He has Jimmy Delos Santos is one word. He typed that in I just for the record.

I typed it in but that's because that's with Texas can't get it, right? So they put it on my driver's light. I just got used to it being that way. So yeah, I typed it in so it's. What how was it? It's D E L o s s a n t o s de los santos, but anyway, just wanted to make sure it was.

We're gonna correct this right now. We can't have have. There we go, so there we go. Corrected, there we go. Jimmy let's let's uh, let's ask Marco what I want to do at this first since you came in. Let's make those who didn't make it to the Ambassadors Academy jealous.

So they don't miss out next year mark. What what is the Ambassadors Academy? What were we doing last week?

Yeah, so the Ambassadors Academy is an annual event where hosted by Living Waters where about a hundred people from around the world come together to be Inspired and equipped hopefully in the areas of evangelism.

And then we touch briefly upon Apologetics and then we roll up our sleeves and we hit the streets. So this year we went to the Huntington Beach Pier and then the Santa Monica Pier Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica.

Where? Ray easy, and I we went every Friday for almost four years. It's designed to stay small and tight and intimate so we can kind of get together hang out answer questions ask questions. And What was really cool about this year was there was an individual who was part of the Academy who actually donated?

Money for gospel tracks so that people can take as many gospel tracks as they want. Home, which was a really cool thing. Let me tell you so guys and girls alike and we just hit the streets.

Yeah, actually there were a number of people that I think took too much and because at the end we were going. Oh, my bags too heavy. You need you need tracks. Yeah, that's great I Know. What did you like about?

Last week and. And the Academy this is I think you're a third Academy. It is.

2017 2018 and 2023. I Had to buy to buy a little duffel bag and I checked my original bags so that I could take some tracks home. I also shipped a box though. So I Y 'all kept saying there's more back there.

I don't know why there's more back there when when that was said I just I loaded up, you know I could always use some tracks. So yeah what I enjoyed about it was I mean There's a somebody asked me the question about having come three times.

And then asked me, you know, why did you come three times actually a friend of mine that I wanted him to come. I told him hey, you should go to ambassadors Academy when the announcement was made. He's like being iffy about it.

I said man if you want me to go with you, I'll go with you. And so that's why I came to support him but while I was here again, I get hyped up about evangelism while I'm there and Somebody asked me would you come again?

And I said, you know what? There's three there's three things I can give you. Number one the fellowship of evangelists is different from just your church. I'm not love my church. I love going to my church, but the 2 thing is true.

In my church is probably just a few people that are hyped up about evangelism as much as we are. And so getting together with a hundred evangelists is crazy towns, right? It's just like, you know that that vibe is different.

Second thing is the toolbox, man I heard some guys out there when I when I was listening to them, you know on the box or as they were going witnessing I was picking up tools. I was picking up things that I could throw on my toolbox, right?

I can use that. I heard I heard a guy from Colorado When he got up there his name's Aaron when he got up there to preach. He was doing the good person test he said, you know what I'm gonna take this test with you.

So you don't feel alone and I said man, I've never thought of that I'm gonna take that throw to my toolbox and I'm gonna use that the next time I do something like that. And actually when I talked to Aaron after that his first time out there doing any type of any type of witnessing I thought that was crazy.

And the last thing is just that I get hyped up again I get you know, we start to wane in our evangelism and the desire to do it and then Going to something like that gets you all hyped up again. In fact, this is the thing Andrew we came back and we really put it into play and our elders have just approved For us to have an evangelism class starting on July 16th at my chairman.

Amen. We're like, hey, let's do this, man. Let's keep on going. Let's keep on moving. So Really glad for that y 'all pray for us on that evangelism class. We hope to get some students in there. Teach him a little bit, you know, so yeah, I was hyped up last week.

Well that that's that's right and I so so I did also take a bunch of the the million-dollar bill tracks so needless to say I had in the Box that had just a hundred dollar bill like all of them put so I think it went through the scanner and someone said Someone's bringing a lot of money and they ripped the box open I got home.

There was just million-dollar bill like they're at least still in the packages, but they're just all over. They ripped the box open to get to see what's inside there, I think someone thought he was hitting a jackpot.

But but yeah, you know Jimmy one of the things we had with Aaron one things I picked up I never saw this done. Aaron would get up now by the way for folks to realize Aaron has a background in playing in the band.

So he's used to being like on the street playing in the band and getting that audience involved. And so what he did when he gets up he goes. Everyone thinks it's a beautiful day raise their hand. It's just like everyone walking by just put their hand up.

He's like everyone who wants to have a good day today raise your hand. And he it was just he knew how to get the crowd as they're walking by to get engaged and then pull them in. I was like, I'm gonna try that.

That's something new for me. And that's why you're so right. There's so many new things you learn from watching different people. Go out on the streets and and and have conversations. And the thing that I've had every year that that I have been you know Privileged to work with living waters and leading the team is I get guys like this year so many.

I mean Jimmy you are the only one on my team that had any experience doing open-air and I had several guys come up to me afterwards at the end of the day because We're money cinema on a computer. It's a long day, right?

I think we got there like after nine o 'clock and we're there till like four. And by about three o 'clock everyone's tired. It's I'm like, hey you want to go up next? No, I'm done. No, no, I'm done. No, I'm done.

Everyone's done and then we get to the graduation at sitting around the table at graduation. Everyone's going. Oh, man, Andrew. I should have gone up one more time. I should have got it more. Every year that I get people that are like they're tired.

But then by the time we're at graduation, they're going. I wish I did more of it. I'm like, that's what you go home for. So, yeah, so so mark we're grateful at least the two of us here are so grateful for Living Waters.

Putting the Ambassador Academy on because it does every year. I come back. I'm spurred on to share the gospel I I get to see the guys who come in and they're all scared and. Then they watch the you know.

You guys at Living Waters and others who are doing open-air and go. Oh, I could do this or handing out tracks or or starting conversations. It's not just about open-air, but we're grateful for you guys for putting this on each year.

Oh, well We don't know what we're doing.

You know, it really is funny it's it's there's a saying it doesn't matter how high you can jump but how straight you can walk once your feet hit the ground again and what we want to do is encourage people to go back to their Jerusalem and Reach the people within their circle of influence.

I mean, there's a reason why I don't live in Texas or Colorado or any other place this I was born in Huntington Beach, right? This this really is my Jerusalem and I have You know traveled the world. You know I've been to I think 50 countries and 49 states and I'm going to I think 15 different countries, you know this year.

I've already been to two or three but It's just non-stop and that's the way it is, you know until we get to heaven, you know. We'll have our ultimate rest when we get to heaven, but we're always pulling away escaping away getting inside of God's Word and As Spurgeon said I will study myself to death and then I'll pray myself alive.

Right and the whole idea and the concept there is it is a a tedious task. To labor in the word or to labor and apologetics to labor in things, you know labor means work. So it can be a lot of work. We had a meeting today about our Ambassadors Academy that we plan on having next year in Paris, France for the Olympics and And We're like, all right, can we pull this off?

You know, is this I and I'm like, I don't know. Let's just go. Let's just go and tell people we're going and see if people want to go with us. And so that's kind of what we're doing. We're creating an Olympic gospel track and we're gonna Hit the streets there in Paris for a few days.

But there's not like there's a blue book to follow on how to put together, you know, one of these events. We're just a bunch of honestly a bunch of idiots who Have been told too many times no. But I've realized that God is bigger Than that and he's a God of miracles.

He When your eyes are on the Lord, you can mock the tumultuous storm that is around you. You you really can. So the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. I I wake up and I just I get excited for the day.

Even though I get exhausted to get out of bed or when I go to bed at night. I just collapse in my bed.

You know, well, I went to the UK when the Olympics were there to do two weeks of evangelism. So I'll have to sign up for the Academy in Paris. He says this as John from Living Waters Europe always stresses that he failed the good person test.

So that's another if you've heard him do it Jimmy. He. That's that's a similar thing. I didn't know he does that. So here was a weird thing D. I do not know John Harris before I met him at the this last week and It was very interesting because there's things he says and does that I thought were original with me and he thought was original with him.

So pray for John it means he thinks like me, which is really scary for him. It's a it's a scary place to be if you think like me just saying so so Let I want to start off and Jimmy I don't know if you have questions for for mark tonight.

But I want to I want to start off if I could and play the trailer. For the new film that you have coming out mark you this is kind of your baby. I know you've been working on this for a long time. I think 2019 Ambassadors Academy you were you were filming for this I think 18 or 19 because I remember you coming out with with the camera and you you grab some people right in front of where we were witnessing and hunting the beach and and Got some interviews there.

So I know this has been a long time in creation. You've been thinking about this issue for even longer. You've you I I Like I think it was like you said to me one time two years. You've just been reading everything you could on Abortion and learning the arguments and so few people do that mark.

So few people they just learn a couple quick arguments and then see how they could use it you're not that way you'd like to dig in and really understand both sides of an argument and. And Grasp, you know the way that someone who disagrees with you would argue and I think that really is essential in the way you argue because You've already thought through how you would argue if you were them.

And Let's listen. I think you're giving me too much credit. You know when I was hanging out with John Harris yesterday or the day before he had said to me Mark You're very intimidating and I said I said how so, you know, I'm sorry, you know, I apologize for that.

I hope that doesn't mean I'm not approachable and he says no you're just. You're very intelligent. You you you critically think through a lot of things and I said You're giving me too much credit, bro.

Honestly. You know, I mean even a fool is considered wise when he just keeps his mouth shut. I'm just kind of taking everything in and like, you know, you'd played that that creed if you would or that mantra from that that woman wannabe pastor and I Listened to probably 20 of it.

I just started daydreaming about dinner. I don't. I'm not a very deep individual. I have swam in the deep end. I'm just comfortable in the shallow end you know, so I Believe that if you want to study something out you need to study what the opposing view is.

Hey, I get that I've attempted to do that. But I think I've forgotten more stuff about the abortion and pro-life argument than most people I've ever kind of decided to study so I don't even know what I know when it comes to this subject.

You could probably hit me with a real simple question. I probably won't know the answer. You know, I mean my mind is already thinking through all of these other different projects that we're working on.

I'm not even I completely forgot about this project. I tell you the truth, but.

You're gonna spill the beans and let us know what the next project is.

Well, I mean I'm writing three different books right now, right. So I. My mind is just always kind of kind of going so.

Good thing you have ADD Jimmy. What were you gonna say? I was gonna say. Well, that's the case.

I did get a question from my youngest daughter at three daughters. My youngest daughter is 26, but last year right before the Dobbs decision came down. She came here in the it to my house and in the kitchen.

She did daddy. Give me give me an answer. Give me a argument for the pro-life position without appealing to God. That's exactly what she said to me. Now I can tell you my answer, but I'd like to know what what you would have said to her mark if it was yeah.

Yeah, well, there's a problem with the with the original premise there and We have to remember that as a Christian It would only make sense that I'm going to appeal to God that I am going to appeal to the Bible.

You know That would be like me Asking her to give me a good Argumentation for whether it be the pro-choice the pro-life argumentation without using logic. So give me a good answer for Pro-choice being a good viable option in today's society, but don't use logic and don't breathe oxygen while you do.

So it doesn't make sense, right? It makes sense that we utilize that which is closest nearest and dearest To us now I can do this right but I but I think that in order to do so I Have to surrender my strongest tools in order to do so the most important.

So in other words, what you're saying is hey mark, I want you to Hammer that nail and I'm gonna give you a wrench to do so. Oh Okay, I mean I'll do my best I'll start pounding it, but you do understand that as a Christian I'm I'm going to use the Bible as my source of authority because that is the ultimate source of authority and I think that always comes up lacking but just to answer the question, right?

I think that Now bear in mind I don't do this right. I don't answer from this position but if I were I do believe that the laws of science and which Is the the law of biogenesis and embryology are on our side.

Biogenesis each species will bring forth after their own kind and then we have the law of embryology. Which simply says you are a distinct individual from the moment of fertilization never to be repeated in all of the future.

So the science is on our side and we didn't bring out the Bible, but that is confirmed by the Bible right, and then we have a Philosophy right philosophy when it comes to abortion is simply It goes like this that the taking of innocent human lives is always wrong.

Abortion is the taking of innocent human lives. Therefore abortion is always wrong, right? That that is the philosophical premise because A and B are correct C must be correct and So that doesn't deal with the Bible though that there's things that overlap in the midst of that.

But we have to remember that everything on the Christian pro-life position side is true and accurate. And everything else is just grasping for straws. Right, and there's more that I can say, but really those are that but most importantly it's theology, right?

God says it's wrong to to murder innocent human beings and that is the answer. So when I was asking people out on the streets, you know, why is murder wrong? You're getting the cheesiest answers. But ultimately the answer is just because it's wrong to murder fellow image-bearers, but we're creating the image of God therefore we are all worthy of Dignity honor and respect.

So regardless if you're a homosexual or heterosexual. We need to show dignity and respect towards all people. It doesn't mean I put up with their sin. But it just means that we honor all people and we speak well of all people.

So I don't speak in a disparaging way behind the back of a homosexual. I don't have a secret joke. Towards homosexuals or towards african-americans. No what you see is what you get. This is how we react and respond to people in this world in which we live.

Yeah, right. So and so.

Real quickly that that's a pre when we talk about pre-substantial apologetics. That's what you saw there right is we don't give up the two presuppositions. I hold to God exists. He has spoken. We don't give up those things.

So we don't give up the truth and Jimmy. I'll just tell you if I mean Randy Alcorn has two books. I was trying to look for the the one the one is called why pro-life he wrote that to be a Argument for Pro-life without appealing to the Bible or God.

But then he's got a larger one a thicker one that goes into giving a biblical appeal as well. So he's got two books. I couldn't remember the title of the second one. Yeah, but those that may be son you want but I what I my answer would be similar to what I did Saturday when we were at Santa Monica and someone asked me to argue, you know prove God exists and I just said to him I said well you don't believe God exists.

He says no, I said, can you make that argument without appealing to the immaterial things that require God? Like your ability to reason logic that or the laws of logic knowledge truth morality. Make your case that God doesn't exist without appealing to the very things that require God because if we're just chemical reactions.

You can't explain any of those immaterial things. I said so make your case that God doesn't exist without using your ability to reason go. He just sat there was like, well, I can't do that I said exactly you you your your argument proves God exists and then you want to say he doesn't exist.

That's the foolish man. Yeah, well Andrew I did I did give her an answer I'll tell you I'll tell you what I did tell her when she told me that I said, well, I can do that. But the first thing I'm gonna tell you is whose morality am I gonna use yours?

Am I gonna am I gonna just go off of what you say is right and wrong? Because I tell you what I tried that for a long time with my own morality guess what I was wrong. Right. I had to go and start to learn from the scriptures.

What is truly wrong, right? What is truly, right? And but I'll give you this and this what I told her you're in the kitchen. You're washing dishes. She's got a two-year-old daughter at this point. She's two and I said just imagine that olive can speak at this point in time.

She comes into the kitchen and she says to you mommy. You're you're facing the other way. Mommy. Can I kill it? What's your next question and she says to me What is it? It's exactly right. You turn around.

It's a cockroach. You're like, yeah, baby all day long kill it. If it's a puppy. We got some issues. All right, we got to go and figure out what what's going wrong, right? But that's the question, right?

What is it? So you got to ask yourself? What is it? Ultimately, that's that's the point right at what point does it become a baby in your mind? There can be all these kind of excuses. But here's the one thing I just leave you with.

I've never seen a Pregnant woman give birth to a baby koala or baby zebra. It's always been it's always been a human, right? So That's that's my point. I mean it is a human that that you're taking that human life and destroying it I don't think she was satisfied with that.

Here's here's the problem. The issue isn't so much the abortion argument as much as her friends were Influencing her with hey women's rights are being taken away. This was all the talk right before the Dobbs decision last year our rights are being taken away.

We need to step up. We need to say something we need to do this and we need to do that. You know when I confronted her with that she was well daddy. I'm not a follower I don't know a lot of us are I mean, who are you gonna follow right?

And so this is one of the things I'm a follower. I follow Christ, right? So it's a big difference, but still In that I don't know that we got to where we wanted to be I still think she has her leanings but pray for my Daughter, right?

Yeah, I'm still you know, I still love her.

Who we following and not always can acknowledge that we're following. Right, so. So yeah, I mean so that that comes in a good now would be a good time for me to play this. Let me play the trailer to this film that and this would be really too.

So mark remembers the work he did because it's it's been a while for him. So so this way he can you know, he can he can remember what it is he did. So let's take a look at this trailer together and Ask the question.

What is it? Now? I'm gonna just say if you look the trailer up it says. It is he stumps abortion supporters with one question What is it? Here's the official trailer.

Went before Congress and argued for infanticide, I don't believe that even for a second.

Since the beginning of time people have attempted to dehumanize certain types of people. There should be a safe way to get rid of a.

Baby, I would absolutely kill a baby right now.

We are a nation that is quickly losing its moral compass. If somebody told me that they murdered somebody.

I wouldn't take it upon myself to judge them. At what point does it become a beef?