Baptism Debate at G3 with Les Lanphere and Discussion about the Super Bowl Outreach

All righty, this is going to be a special episode of The Wrap Report.

This was recorded while we were at G3, the conference down in Atlanta, Georgia.

Grab some different people that we are friends with and some folks we met down there, did some interviews, and you will get to hear some.

We will start with the most heated debate between me and Les Lansphere, a

Presbyterian, over the topic of baptism. There's gonna be tons of misrepresentation and insults thrown, maybe.

After that we're gonna have a great ministry, Sports Fan Outreach International.

We're gonna get to hear about them, what they're doing, and I do encourage you to make sure you listen to that so you know to sign up for the

Super Bowl Outreach. That's what's coming your way right now on The Wrap Report.

Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

All right, so now we're actually recording with Les Lansphere down here at G3. We just had a great discussion on baptism, and everyone missed it because the card was protected and wasn't recording.

Yeah, that's the plight of a podcaster. Yeah, so it was great. Let's not even repeat it. We'll just let everyone...

Yeah, judge for yourselves. So you and I were in a thread back and forth.

We were saying we're both coming down here at G3, got into... I forget if it started on baptism, and then somehow you and I are joking around because we never actually joke around ever, you and I.

But we said we'll come down to debate baptism. You reminded me of it. I actually forgot that we were gonna do that.

Yeah, I can never pass up an opportunity to debate baptism. So let's start. You're Presbyterian.

I am. I would be biblical. Yes, because believers should be baptized.

That is true. You're halfway there. Yeah, so let's start with that, and that's what we were discussing. So let's start with the

Presbyterians, believe it or not, but this will be news to some Baptists. You and I both agree an adult believer gets saved.

He should get... Yeah, baptized. Because, like, you know, the biblical example, especially, you know, the clearest one,

Acts 2, Peter is preaching the gospel. All these people say, what must we do to be saved?

Peter says, repent, believe, be baptized, you'll receive the Holy Spirit. And then he says some other things about children.

But so that, but no, that's the, that's the idea. Yeah, if a person repents and believes, then they would outwardly demonstrate that through a profession of faith, that person should be baptized.

And that's why I think a lot of people don't, that are not Presbyterian, have not spoken to Presbyterians, studied anything of the

Westminster, don't realize that Presbyterians believe in a believer's baptism. That's a, I don't think

I've, I've seen that much. I have heard that that exists, that people, like, don't, that they don't think they actually baptize believers.

But what a crazy thing to think. Where would that even come from? That you wouldn't, like, so what if, what if somebody converts as an adult?

Yeah. Do they actually assume that Presbyterians wouldn't baptize them? I think what, truthfully, what

I think it is, is there's, there's a bunch of people that, because they only debate Presbyterians on infant baptism, they think as if that's the only thing.

So I think they don't even think about the fact. Yeah. It's not that they, they just never gave it any thought.

Right, right, right. So, so let's talk, as we were before, we realized we weren't recording.

Yeah. So when we look at, we get an adult, guy's in his 30s, he comes to your, your church, he has just gone saved, he wants to get baptized.

Immersion or no? Mode, I think I'm even less concerned with mode than some other

Presbyterians. But the Westminster makes it a point to say that both sprinkling and pouring are acceptable modes.

And it doesn't actually exclude, it doesn't say anything about, you know, the person should not be immersed.

But, but they do say it doesn't have to be immersion. So they say the two modes that are preferred, and then they say the one mode that isn't, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be that mode.

So I would say, through that language, I think the Westminster actually says that immersion is acceptable.

So, but I think the preferred mode for paedo -baptists typically is sprinkling or pouring.

That's actually the reverse from the Didache, which, because Didache would actually say immersion was preferred, but it allowed for pouring or sprinkling.

Right, right. Which actually on the, our Apologetics Live that we do with Matt Slick and I, we had a

Catholic come in and make that argument that the Didache proved, you know, he didn't get into it, but he said it proves the

Catholic Church on baptism. Yeah, well everything proves the Catholic Church if you're Catholic. Yeah, well the thing, so they're gonna actually, while we're here at G3, Matt's gonna debate this guy on it, and the thing

I think is gonna be so funny is Matt and I talked about it, and Matt's like, I wonder if the guy realizes that he's gonna argue for sprinkling, and I'm gonna agree with him as a

Presbyterian. Yeah, nice. And what's he gonna say then? Because it's like, yeah, yeah, the Didache supports

Presbyterianism. What do you do now? Yeah, so, so, and I've always heard that Baptists are, you know, they care a lot about immersion, and that's the only valid mode, but then

I actually, like, in real life was debating with the Baptist who wants to join the church, you know, that I'm a member of, and we were having discussions about this stuff, and he's like serious that it has to be immersion, and that's, even when

I was a Baptist, it never, like, I never cared. I was like, well, it should be, but, you know.

I'm more wondering if a guy is that big on the mode of baptism, why is he joining a

Presbyterian church? He's gonna have a, he's gonna have a whole lot of other issues. Well, he's, he's walked out of the room when we've done infant baptism, so, you know, he's, he's sort of, he loves the church, but he sort of wants to be consistent with the things that he believes are, you know, ultimately sinful, and that's something

I think could be mentioned, that, you know, we throw around things being sinful a lot, and a lot of people get super offended by that, but, so my position is that to withhold baptism from your child is a sin, and I think it would be completely consistent for a

Baptist to say, when I baptize my infant, I'm in sin, because I'm doing something the Lord hasn't commanded.

So, but, that doesn't mean we have to, like, throw each other out of the kingdom or anything, like, there are sins of omission and sins of ignorance, and, you know, that's a part of life.

I know that I have sins of ignorance, I just don't know which ones they are, right? Well, and I think,

I think this is the thing that a lot of people don't realize. You, you would say that me withholding baptism would be a sin for me to do that to my children, and I would say for you to do that to your children wouldn't be right.

I, you know, but yet we can still sit here and have a conversation. Yeah. Crazy idea. Yeah, well, there are varying degrees of sin, too, you know, that should be said.

So, there are heretics that you probably shouldn't, there's some conversations that, that would be inappropriate in certain contexts, but, but yeah,

I mean, Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians, we're brothers in ways that, you know, a lot of people, you know, very few disagreements can still have that sort of unity.

I think, I think the real issue is, for a lot of people, they cannot accept someone having a view different than their own, and that's why they get it, everything has to be, you must agree with me, and it's like, you know what, there's gonna be areas in your theology that you're wrong.

Mm -hmm. There's areas in my theology that I'm wrong. Mm -hmm. Neither one of us know where those are, because if we did, I think we'd both be intellectually honest, and we'd change it.

Right, exactly. But the issue is, is that for many people, they cannot accept that they could be wrong in their theology anywhere, and so every, every single point of theology must be fought tooth and nail.

Yeah. And that becomes the problem. So I have an interest, so you, we, you said earlier that you, you come at this issue of baptism from a more

Jewish perspective. Yeah. And I feel like that's my biggest thing, is that I feel like it's consistent with the way

Judaism worked out, that we would be baptizing infants. So why don't you explain sort of how you feel it's consistent with a

Jewish worldview? Well, see, my view ends up being a little different in the sense that, you know, I'm gonna go to,

I'm not gonna see baptism, water baptism, as the sign of the Covenant.

That's where I make that distinction, right? So I'm gonna look at Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36, where he's talking to the

New Covenant, and the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit will indwell us. Yep. So I'm gonna take that, the sign of the

Covenant as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that's spirit baptism. Therefore, I see that as individual.

Do you believe that individuals in the Old Testament that were regenerated, did they, were they indwelt by the

Spirit? I think that there were times that they could be for leadership. In other words, we see the

Holy Spirit, you know, coming upon Saul, but also departing from Saul. Okay, but you do believe that people were saved in the

Old Testament. Yes. And you believe they were regenerated, necessarily, since total depravity is true, and you have to, you need a new heart, was, and we,

I think that regeneration could be synonymous with, well, obviously the new birth, but that's also the indwelling of the

Holy Spirit. So when the Holy Spirit comes in. So you think, so how did regeneration work in the

Old Testament? Yeah, so I agree with that for the New Testament. In the Old Testament, I think that when we look at the passage, especially in Ezekiel, looking at the

New Covenant, the promise is that the Holy Spirit would indwell us. We would no longer need a priest to tell us

God's Word. The Spirit would dwell and tell. So there's definitely a difference there. Yeah, but what does it mean to be born again in the

Old Testament? I think, and there we don't have the clarity that we have in the

New. Okay. That's one thing that we have to be honest about, is that the Old Testament focused more nationally, and so what you end up seeing is more of discussion of the nation, and you and I talked about this before we were recording, right, that we see that, take

Old Testament Israel, there was saved Israel, the elect, and then there's Israel that's national

Israel, but they're not elect. Like Romans 9. Yeah, and so now you would end up seeing the same thing with that baptism, and this is something for Baptists to realize, that you would take that same view in the

New Testament, and you look at baptism and go, here we have a child is baptized, brought into the

Covenant, bringing in that Covenant doesn't mean they're saved, and that's on that some Baptists, because they think of baptism as an outward experience of an inward event.

Right. Therefore, they look at that and say, well, you're saying they're saved already? Right. And then some get confused, because there are some

Presbyterians that hold to this and some that don't, that if a child that's baptized dies before an age of reconciliation, they go to heaven, where some believe that if they're not, they either don't know what happens to it or say they're not going to heaven.

So what you're saying about regeneration probably working differently in the

Old Testament, that's your dispensationalism showing, right? No, I don't know. That's an honest question.

No, no, I don't know, and I think I don't know because everyone pegs me as the dispensationalist.

Oh, I'm not trying to be offensive at all. I don't actually fit perfectly in that camp anyway. The only reason

I ask is because, so from a Presbyterian view, we would say that the Covenant of Grace began at Genesis 3 and ran through the entire

Old Testament. So would you see the Holy Spirit indwelling all believers, even in the Old Testament?

Yeah, so I think when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and explaining what it means to be born again,

Nicodemus was supposed to understand that, and Nicodemus was a Pharisee, so there's this information...

Don't call him names. The information was available to them. So I think that the

New Testament gives us clarity on the workings of the way the

Spirit was always working, but now we have it to be understood and we can actually teach it to one another. We can actually understand the way the

Holy Spirit regenerates, and there's a pervasiveness in the New Covenant that wasn't there in the

Old. So when you look at the church, you basically assume all of these, you know, the visible church, when you go into church on Sunday, you look around, these people are saved.

These people are, you know, they're professing faith. Their sins are forgiven, as far as I know, whereas I think with Judaism, it wasn't so pervasive to say these people are...

their sins are actually forgiven. Yeah, we wouldn't... Jewish people would not speak that way, and we wouldn't talk about their being believers or unbelievers.

In Judaism, it's like if you're Jewish, you're instantly going to heaven. One of the hardest things witnessing to a

Jewish person is you got to get lost. Yeah. The thing, though, is we wouldn't see that distinction that we end up seeing in the

New Testament, and we also would look at it, right? The sacrifices that were done.

Those sacrifices really point to a future thing. Sure. So do the sacrifices provide atonement?

Well, Leviticus clearly says they make atonement, and yet that atonement really is foreshadowed in what is to come.

Right. So there's... we do see those differences, and so I think that redemption in the

Old Testament, you had someone that believed. They put trust in God.

God brought them to a point where they came to repentance the same way you and I would, but instead of putting repentance and turning and trusting in Christ, they're trusting in the sacrifice, or some are realizing that points to the

Messiah. Right. But I think what you... you don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because I think that was a future thing.

And where I would see an issue then, if he was the same, what do we do with something where we see Saul being the

Spirit coming upon Saul, and then leaving, did Saul lose his salvation then? That becomes a tricky thing.

Well, I just think that there's, you know, we can have categories, and that's one of the biggest things for Presbyterians, is having this idea of sometimes the

Scriptures... so, you know, one of the big issues is that I'm a

Calvinist. What? I thought you just did the movie on Calvinism because you were.

To mock it. Yeah. So I believe in perseverance of the saints, which essentially means you can't lose your salvation.

If God regenerates you and gives you the gift of faith, you will operate in faith, and he will carry you through to the end.

So you can't lose your salvation. But I think there are verses, even in the New Testament, that basically say you can lose your salvation.

Like talking about falling away from grace, or being severed from Christ, or trampling underfoot the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified.

That's some crazy heavy language. I just don't think it's talking to believers in those. I think it's talking to false converts.

Well, so, but think about that language, though. Falling from grace, being severed from Christ, trampling underfoot the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified.

Yes, so I believe... Some of them are warning passages as well, I think. Well, I think a warning needs an actual audience to be meaningful, so I can hear those warnings, and they don't...

that doesn't mean I, if I'm truly regenerated, I can actually lose my salvation. But there's sort of an experience of losing what appeared to be salvation, right?

So Presbyterians are very... I feel like the big benefit of Presbyterianism is that we have now have categories to say there's a visible church, just like there was a visible

Israel, and you can visibly be in this covenant, and you can be called a

Christian, you can be saved, as far as anyone can tell, and you can fall away from that.

And there's sort of this almost experience, this experiential circumstance where it appears that a person has lost their salvation.

But that doesn't undermine the verses that actually talk about regenerated faith adhering people that can't go away.

We know there's some who will be so disobedient, Paul mentions this with the

Lord's Supper, some that are so disobedient the Lord just had to take them home. Yeah. And... but then we see, you know, 1

John 2 and 19, you know, they went out from among us because they were never of us. They went out to expose that they weren't.

So I think... but here it becomes... so let's get back to the Baptism, because... so for the Baptists, yeah, the mode typically is a major issue, not for all

Baptists. I think you look at something like we're saying Didache. They're, you know, they're saying if there's not much water, if you're in a desert, right, what are you gonna do?

Right. So I would end up saying I think the preferred way, and in America today,

I think there'd be no excuse not to. Right. There's nowhere in America that we can't find access to water, to a tub or something that, right, a pool.

But, you know, you go to the Middle East and you're gonna find places you can't find water, so you're not gonna find a pool of water.

So pouring... it's... I'm less interested in the mode because the mode is what...

it's about what it pictures, right? We go to Romans chapter 6. It's picturing that death, burial, resurrection.

Right. I think that, you know, immersion is gonna picture that better, but the real issue is that there's nothing...

and we made this a rhetoric, but some Presbyterians think that baptism will add grace, not in the way

Catholics do. But I don't think that there's anything other than obedience to a command in baptism.

I don't think it adds a grace. I don't think that it saves you. I don't think that it...

Do you believe the same of the Lord's Supper? Do you believe that when you take the Lord's Supper that you are receiving, like, you know, we call them the means of grace, in a sense, that this is the means by which

God gives a person some sort of grace? Yeah, I think where that comes through is in through the self -examination and reflecting on what

Christ did on the cross. I don't view it in the same sacramental way of it being more of a...

Do I think that it, by being obedient, that we get grace, in other words, we're more sanctified?

I think the same is true for baptism with that. Yes, every time we obey the Lord in anything, we're going to be moving further in our sanctification, which is a steps of grace.

But, yeah, I think that some speak of, like, sacramentalism with baptism in the

Lord's Supper, where it's as if the more often you do it, just the act of doing it somehow adds grace.

Well, the act of doing it divorced from faith is useless, so we all agree on that.

We agree on that. But I think the act of doing it... Like, I hear what you're saying. You're saying, you know, it's a practical thing, like, your self -examination, all that stuff.

And I'm not going to say that's not true, but I think there's also subtle things that we don't even realize are happening.

Like, when we say, this is the body of Christ and the blood of Christ, and we're eating his body and drinking his blood, there's this idea of dependence to feed on our

Savior. That's a psychological thing, I think, that infuses grace in that way. So I think there's a lot of ways that the means of grace give us grace.

Now, I'm laughing, and you're looking at me like, okay, what is he laughing at? You're trying to figure if I'm looking at someone. Your new movie, you're gonna be talking about what principle?

The regulative principle. What is the regulative principle? It says that if God does not request something in Scripture, we should not do it.

And you apply that to worship, right? Yes. See, I apply that to hermeneutics, that's all. So unless the

Scripture says... Well, there's a thing called good and necessary consequence, and it's where you get the

Trinity from. So that word's not in there, either. Oh, no, the word doesn't have to be in there, but the teaching is in there.

Well, we believe the teaching of baptism is in there. So let me actually get to this. So that's why

I asked you about consistency with Judaism. So here's sort of, let me paint the picture. So what we're saying about why infants should be baptized.

So you go back to Abraham, and Abraham was, at one point, an unbeliever, essentially a

Gentile, and God called him out of his father's household and made a promise to him.

And the promise was for a seed, and Abraham believed, and it was accredited to him as righteousness.

And then, then, as a believer, he received circumcision. And then God told him to circumcise his entire household.

So, obviously, when Baptists see the New Testament, and they say, well, you know,

Peter said, repent, believe, and be baptized, then that means only believers should be baptized, things like that. Obviously, that's not the only place they're pulling that from, but that's the principle they see, and they emphasize.

So, sort of, so what Presbyterians are essentially saying is, that day on Pentecost, when

Peter came out and preached the gospel, and all these people were cut to the hearts, and they were asking, what, what must we do to be saved? These are 3 ,000

Abrahams, first generation into this religion. So, the sign, the sign and seal, which, obviously, like as you said, we disagree that that's what it is, but we would say that this, the, the act of baptism is the sign and seal of the religion of Christianity.

So, just like Abraham was receiving the sign and seal after he had faith, he received the sign.

So, believers circumcision, and then we're told in the, the Passover account, that if any of the

Egyptians wanted to join the Jews, they would have to be circumcised, them and their household.

So, you'd have to, so there'd be believers circumcision and your household. So, in the book of Acts, first generation

Christians coming forward, receive the sign, 3 ,000 Abrahams, and then

I would say, pretty immediately, we see the household principle reintroduced, and that word household is very, very loaded, if we, if we pull it from the

Old Testament, where God told Abraham what it means to be in a household. Let me say something for folks who may be Baptist and not understand some of this, because the, the view that a

Presbyterian would have is that the covenant sign is for family, not just an individual.

Throughout the Old Testament, I think we both agree that when we look at the sign of the covenant, the sign of the covenant was for families.

Right. I would end up saying that's, I think, because God was dealing with a nation and not the individuals.

He was dealing with individuals, but he is focused on the nation. Now, I think that there was changes when he, with the new covenant, and this is, now see, this is where we end up getting into where we disagree some, because, see now,

I don't think, I look at the new covenant promise as being the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so now when

I look at this, I'm going, that's individual, and so that's the sign that I end up looking to, because that's the one that, you know,

Jeremiah said, and what we end up seeing is, I'm looking at this and saying, well,

I don't see that sign being said that it's gonna be for the family. Now, we both agree, other covenants, they're family.

I guess where I'd say is, just because all the other covenants had a family component, it doesn't mean the new covenant does.

Right. Yeah, and that's the thing, that's gonna be areas where you and I end up disagreeing, because of how we approach it, and I think that this is important for folks to realize is, when we look at a lot of the same, a lot of texts, you and I are gonna have the same conclusions looking at them.

Yeah. But you're also gonna look at some of these texts, and you're gonna look at it from a covenant, a familial covenant perspective, where I'm gonna look at it as more of an individual perspective, and that's really the difference.

Yeah, well, yeah, the covenant theology is really what it all comes down to, absolutely, and I think this might be some clarification for some people out there, too, because as you mentioned, some people think that, you baptize them.

So, the reason an eight -day -old Jewish baby was circumcised wasn't because they were saved, it was because they were in covenant, and in covenant was,

I mean, that was the language that sort of encompassed salvation. Salvation was found within being in God's covenant, so they're not separated.

They're not regenerate, but they're in a family relationship, they're getting blessings from God by being part of Israel.

And they're positively viewed by God, and positively viewed by one another as God's people. And in that sense, like you and I were talking about before recording, there is a set up, they're set apart.

Right, exactly. And that became a big issue that you had brought up. Yeah, 1st Corinthians 7 .14, Paul talks about the unbelieving spouse being sanctified or holy, and then the child of the believer being sanctified or holy.

So, G3 has their convention right by the airport? Yes. Okay. Can you hear that in the mic?

Oh yeah, you hear that airplane beautifully in the mic. I feel like I'm at the US Open. Have you ever been to the

US Open? No. I used to take my daughter all the time, and you know, you just can't help. Every once in a while, you have a plane going right over.

Oh yeah. They try to rework it for those two weeks. Yeah. You gotta love when you have a mayor who loves tennis, because he literally forced the two airports that are right there to be like, no, you're gonna reroute.

Wow. For these two weeks, you're rerouting. So anyway, so the child wasn't circumcised because they were necessarily justified, right?

But the component was there. You were positively viewed, you know, by God, so you wouldn't say the kid's an unbeliever or something like that.

So, in the New Testament, in our context, we're not saying that we baptize the child because they're justified.

You baptize a person because they're in covenant. So the reason an adult becomes baptized isn't necessarily because they're justified.

It's because they've seen the covenant requirements, which is to submit to Christ as King, to repent, to believe.

So those are the requirements to enter covenant if you're an unbeliever, just like with Abraham. That's how he needed to understand what

God needed, and then he submitted to it. And then he became, you know, God's covenant member. So our children aren't baptized because they have necessarily even repented and believed.

They're baptized because they are in covenant, because they're united to a believer.

And that's a principle we say we find in Abraham, we see repeated in 1 Corinthians 7 14, and the household baptisms throughout the book of Acts.

And so you're looking at the consistency there. So when people say, well, infant baptism is nowhere in the

Bible, I mean, you can agree that we have no record of an infant being baptized, but you're not making...

But the principle is... Yeah, we're saying... You're not making your argument based on, well, I have a scripture verse that says, here, this infant's baptized.

And that's the thing, like, I remember seeing a guy, he had a book, and it was, you know, all the passages that have infant baptism, and you open it, it's all blank, and it's like this thick.

And he thinks it's funny, but the problem I have with it is he's misrepresenting the argument. And, I mean, you and I may disagree, but I don't want to misrepresent your argument and say, oh, well, you're...

Unless you have a verse that says it. Now, some people go to the Acts passage and say, you know, with Paul and the

Philippian jailer, and his household was saved, and they'll be like, oh, well, household must mean infant. I haven't had infants for a long time, but I have a household.

You know, it's like... Yeah. It doesn't mean there has to be. Right. It's an argument from silence, but here's the reality.

When we look at this, there could have been, were they baptized? It becomes an argument of science to say there are or not.

But that's not the way you're going to build your argument, and that's the thing I want to focus. Well, so, I mean, the word household being used there is,

I mean, that's a huge thing for us, because, like I was saying before, that word is loaded from a biblical perspective.

Well, whenever God spoke about a believer's household being treated, he would always emphasize the slaves, every male child, everyone, like he would keep saying everyone.

I mean everyone when I say household. Yeah. So, we see that, we see baptism being given, and then the household principle being brought in.

It's like, oh, household. So, here's his adult slaves. Yeah. Were they baptized? Well, so, this goes into sort of,

I think, so the easier way to ask that question, I think, because we can relate to the context, is, again, 1

Corinthians 7, 14, I talked about the children being holy, but the other thing that's mentioned there is the spouse is holy.

So, should the spouse, the unbelieving spouse, be baptized? So, this is my perspective, is they are in covenant through union to the believer, and everyone who's in covenant should be baptized.

So, the unbelieving spouse should, in quotation marks, be baptized, but the unbelieving spouse will probably refuse to be baptized because of their unbelief, and if they did submit to baptism, they'd be demonstrating outward faith, and they'd be submitting to baptism.

So, you could basically, you know, Christianity is a non -violent version of Judaism in a lot of ways.

Like, we don't deal with our issues the same way. So, if you can imagine somebody in Abraham's household, a male who needed to be circumcised, saying, forget this.

I don't believe in your God. I'm out of here. Now you have a covenant member, because they're in Abraham's household, refusing the sign, and they'd have to flee because they'd have very bad circumstances.

They'd have very bad consequences. So, it's a little different in the New Testament because we don't, you know, we wouldn't, like, kill the person or stone them to death, and yeah.

And there's also, like, a flipped around thing where if a Jew married a Gentile, they'd become unclean, like a covenant breaker, right?

But it's the opposite in the New Testament, which is very interesting, where if an unbeliever finds themselves married to a believer, the unbeliever becomes holy.

That's amazing. Like, that's Christ's holiness, you know, exuding outwards. That's a sign.

Well, okay, but here's the thing. In heaven, yeah, neither one of us are going to disagree on this issue anymore.

That's true. Neither one of us, actually, we're not going to have baptisms anymore. That's true. No evangelism.

No evangelism. Yep. None of that. So, I think, I mean, here's the thing. What I always challenge people is to rightly understand the opposite view, be able to articulate someone else's view before you say they're wrong.

I think you're wrong. I also think you're wrong. And, you know, but that's the thing.

It's at least there's no misrepresentation. Yes. So, well, thanks for sitting down with us here at the

G3 conference. Yeah, a lot of fun. Now, I want to give some time for you at the end here.

So, what are you doing down here? You got a new film that you're down here. You have an old film that you're promoting too. It's not too old.

It's not like Fonzie old. Dude, it's like a year old. And no one gets the Fonzie reference because we didn't record that.

Yeah, I know. That was just for you. Yeah, so I made a movie called

Calvinist. It came out about a year and a half ago. And people seem to like it.

It's good. I got to watch it. If you are a Calvinist, you'd appreciate it. If you are a

Calvinist and you have family members and friends that don't get it and they think you're crazy, I think it's a good resource for that.

And if you're not a Calvinist, it's also a good movie to watch for you just to help you understand. I think it was a good movie for folks who just start learning about Calvinism because they can throw out the thing going, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And at the end, you start talking about the cage stage and they go, oh, no, no, no. That's me. Yeah.

Yeah. That was all intentional. So let's talk about your new film that you got. Yeah. So I'm currently making a movie called

Spirit and Truth, and it's all about reformed worship. So, you know, how how should we approach

God? And is there a better way than the way evangelicalism at large is is doing that?

So that's pray for me. Are you saying my my smoke machines and light shows shouldn't be done?

Do you have you blessed them? Oh, yes. Prayed over them. I had a rabbi do it. I was on board for a second.

Yeah. So that's that's the kind of question like, like, you know, what's what kind of principles should be leading the choices we make when we approach

God and worship and stuff like that. So that's what it's about. It's a really big topic. It's the source, a source of a lot of anxiety in my life right now, because there's a you know, it's got to tackle it.

Well, I think I think the issue is that not enough people want to discuss worship in a serious mood.

They want to discuss worship as a practical thing, what they want to see in their church is to discuss what does

God want in our worship? Yeah, does that's not discussed in evangelicalism. Yeah. And I think that's,

I mean, the thing that I'm looking forward to your new film coming out is is that is to get people start going.

What does God want? Yeah. In worship. That's exactly right. Yeah, we live in a time of patience, where the

Lord overlooks a lot of our nonsense. And there would just strike people dead when they messed around with worship.

So that's kind of, yeah, my, so my, my niece is gonna get bat mitzvahed.

Clearly, I thought you were gonna say baptized. No. So they, we've gotten more liberal in Judaism, so now the girls can get bat mitzvahed, as you get more and more liberal.

Yeah, that is like a liberal band, isn't it? That's been around for a while, though, right? Yeah, I even conservative

Jews, I think will now allow women to, to, to get bat mitzvahed. So Wow. But her, her, her

Torah reading happens to be the same as my Torah reading, which was kind of neat.

But part of the Torah reading is going to deal with when the sons of Aaron went into the offers the wrong type of offering.

Yeah. And God said, No, you're not going to do that. I'm taking your life. Yeah. So barbecue.

Yeah, yeah. And so she was like, I don't understand this. So over Thanksgiving, I sat down and got a chance to explain that.

She's like, Oh, that's I said, Yeah, they're representing. They're leaders of God's people.

They, they can't just go in and do their own thing. They have to represent God his way.

This isn't messianic family. No, no, you're just talking to straight up Jewish. Yep. I'm straight up Jewish family.

Well, okay, my sister married a Gentile. So they're not completely straight up. But there but yeah,

I was like having this conversation going, Oh, I'm gonna be hearing it with my sister. But I assume you work

Jesus in there somewhere. Yeah, we we talked about a little bit. And, you know, the, you know, my family has it's an interesting relationship.

Aren't they all? Yeah. And it's it's hard to vandalize. Yeah. You know, it's your own family always.

But there's a there's a wall that gets put up. But, but anyway, so thanks for coming out.

It's good to hang with you here for a couple minutes and talk to you here at the conference. Yeah, we just met face to face a couple hours ago.

We actually someone introduced us two years ago. Oh, okay. You didn't know who

I was. I didn't know who you were. And we're just like, Okay, high five. Bye. See you. And it was just a face in the crowd.

Yeah. But this is the first time we've actually having known who each other is to see face to face and sit down and talk.

Yeah, this is the first we sat face to face and talked. Yeah, that's true. So thanks for coming in.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. All right. So that was a good discussion that we had with Les.

As you can see, we got along, we didn't fight, we disagree, and that's perfectly fine.

We can agree to disagree on the topic of baptism, we won't disagree forever, there'll be a day in heaven, we'll all agree on the topic.

But that is the way we should discuss it. We should discuss our differences with charity, understanding each other's perspective.

Before we get into the next interview and discuss a great event and a great organization,

Sports Fan Outreach International and their Super Bowl outreach that's coming up, I want to let folks know that this podcast is part of the

Christian Podcast Community. There has been some big news going on with the community. If you've been paying attention, we have taken my rap report, we've split the rap report daily, that's that Monday through Friday, two minute episodes.

Those are now on its own feed, rap report daily. But the big news is that Justin Peters will be starting to podcast again.

He's named his podcast DiddyK, so you would be able to find that by searching for Justin Peters or search for DiddyK, anywhere where iTunes is.

It's not set up yet, I don't believe, in Google Play and the others, but it's coming.

So you know that you can find it at least in iTunes. Keep looking for it.

I'm sure he's going to be sharing it. The other news is Theology Gals is part of the

Christian Podcast Community now, and Theology Answers has not been podcasting so much recent, but there may be news with them because they may be getting on the radio, which means they'll have to podcast more often.

So they're going to be podcasting a lot more. We have So You Want to Be a

Podcaster, that'll be starting up probably in February. But with that, let me mention, these are all podcasts you can subscribe to.

You can also subscribe to the Christian Podcast Community podcast. Why would you want to do that?

Well, that's going to have everything on there. That's probably too much. But January 28th on the

Christian Podcast Community feed will be the Christian Podcast Community Awards, the 2018 awards for Best Christian Podcast and Best Christian Podcast Episode.

So be looking forward to that. That will be an announcement that we'll have. We'll probably be sharing it all over social media, hopefully others will too, so that you can find out about those awards and check out some really great podcasts to be listening to.

Now, you say, well, I would like to be part of the Christian Podcast Community. Great!

We're about to open up for applications. We have seven podcasts right now, and we haven't opened up to have for applications.

That process is going to be starting now. So we're in about a week or two going to have the website set up where we'll be able to take your applications.

It'll go through our process of evaluation, and then you too may be a podcaster on the

Christian Podcast Community. Why be on with them? Well, why to be on with us? The basic reason would be because we are a community of podcasters looking to promote and help one another rather, or more so, than ourselves.

It's a crazy idea, I know. Christians promoting others, working to serve others, rather than self.

Crazy idea in this age of social media, but we kind of think it's biblical. So check out all of the podcasts that we have.

You can go, if you're on Facebook, to the Christian Podcast Community page, like that.

That's where we're going to be posting different announcements and news. So when we add new podcasts, that'll be a place you can check it out.

We'll also be dropping them on the feed for the Christian Podcast Community. So now let's get to Sports Fan Outreach International.

Let me let you know up front that as we're in a convention hall, you will hear a lot of people around.

It's going to be more so than the previous interview with Les, because Les and I recorded before the conference actually started, when it was just the exhibitors in there.

You're going to hear a lot of people walking around and talking. So if you're like me and you pick up all those voices, it can be distracting.

Very few people are like that, so it just is something you'll have to be aware of. Try to tune in.

This is a great ministry, so check out my discussion. Okay, so we're here at G3 with Jason McAlphin, Sports Fan Outreach International.

Now I'm going to warn you guys, he actually happens to be a personal friend, so we might joke around a little bit, because that's the kind of friends

I have. So Jason, it's good seeing you out here. You've been out here a couple years with Sports Fan Outreach International.

First thing, introduce yourself and let folks know about Sports Fan Outreach International and what you guys do.

All right, Andrew, Jason McGough. I've been with Sports Fan doing the Super Bowl outreaches for about, this will be my sixth

Super Bowl, and I've been at the G3. This is my third year helping out

Bill at his booth, trying to promote Sports Fan Outreach International and try to get guys who are interested in evangelism, open air, attracting, and all that to come along to one of our events and hopefully labor alongside of them.

So for folks who may know the Super Bowl as a Sunday event where they throw some ball around and a lot of people pay a lot of money for it, you don't actually go to the game per se.

What is it that you guys are going to do? And I'm asking this, but you already know, I've attended many of them myself, but my audience may not know.

So describe for folks what we see when we go to these events. They're not on Sunday.

We actually, their Sunday kind of is the wrap -up. We're there for a lot longer. So describe the event of the Super Bowl outreach.

Well, beginning usually on Thursday, a couple days before Sunday, we'll register. We'll hear the team leaders speak on the subject that they've been given beforehand to kind of teach us, and then we'll lead in through some prayer and go to sleep that night.

And then the next day we wake up to some early morning prayer, and we'll spend an hour about doing that.

And then this year we have the pleasure of having Josh Bice, who is running

G3, runs it every year, teaching us for the next few days on,

I can't remember the subject, but usually gets a subject or a topic. And I'll remember when I get there, but usually you'll get a topic or a subject, and then they'll teach on that for the first part of the morning.

Then we'll grab some lunch or a sack lunch, and then we'll hit the street, you know, usually around noon to about seven or eight at night, depending on, you know, our circumstances that we got going on.

And then we'll do that for two days, and then, like you said, we'll wrap up on Sunday, whatever kickoff time is, usually around one or six, depending on the time frame, wherever we're at, and then we'll head home from there.

So it's about three and a half days worth of teaching, praying, fellowship, and evangelism.

Now, the folks that are there, these are people, because this is the thing that was new to me when

I started, when I first came out to one, I didn't realize the NFL has this whole NFL experience they do for a whole week, pretty much, leading up to the

Super Bowl. It just gets bigger and bigger each day. That's right. Up until, really, Saturday is the big day. Sunday is a game day.

It's the game, yeah. So, but what do people expect? What do you see? Who are the people who are coming out to this event?

And what are you guys as evangelists seeing as you're out there? Well, I would say the first part of the people that come out during the beginning of the week are usually like the locals and stuff like that.

And then there are the stragglers who come in from out of town, from all over the country, and sometimes not even, their team might not be playing.

They just might be coming to Super Bowl because they love it. And so during that week, you'll see the festivities.

And so the fans that we're ministering to, obviously the crowds will increase throughout the day, and you'll see more and more of that as we do get closer to the game.

And so as they're flowing in and out, our hopes are God's word would not return void, and that he'll use us as vessels to get his word out to each person that passes by throughout that whole week.

And then on Sunday, the big game will be down on the stadium. The atmosphere of the game, everybody's excited.

They want their team to win. And of course, nobody really remembers what happens the next day, but that's all right. So that's our job.

But there are thousands of people who end up showing up, and they're not going to make it to the game, most of them.

I mean, that's the thing that so many people don't even know, is that it's not the people going to the game that show up to this. There's so many people who are just going for the festivities, for the atmosphere that's there.

And these people that actually fly in just for the NFL experience. And so when we think about that and we look at that, there's just a lot of people that you have an opportunity to evangelize to, just thousands of tracks that give out.

And now, Sports Fan Outreach International has done more than just the Super Bowl. So you guys go to a lot of sporting events.

Why sporting events? Well, the crowd flow is consistent.

So you will always have crowds, no matter what sporting event it is, whether it's NHL All -Star Game or NBA All -Star

Game or the Pro Bowl. There's always a consistent crowd of people and a steady stream of people. Plus, most likely, these are people, we're not trying to judge them, but these are people that would most likely not go into a church to hear about Christ.

So we take it to them, being that we know they're going to be there, there's a time set that they're going to be there.

So it just makes a perfect way of scheduling everything out so that we can't miss those souls, if that makes sense.

So when we think about this, there's some folks that are like, hey, look, open -air evangelism, nothing for me.

Sure. The biggest thing I think that we get to do when we go to these events are tracts. Yeah, they are good.

I think they actually, and you're not really talking to folks. So to me, this becomes a really good event for people that want to do some evangelism, but they don't want to actually, they're afraid to have the conversations.

They definitely are not going to get up on a box. So for someone that has the fear of evangelism, do you think this becomes a good event just because of the tract aspect of it?

Well, just talking about training and things like that, the past two years they've had

Tommy Waltz from Gospel of God Ministry and Scott Smith from Schoolmaster Ministries hosting a training beforehand, before the five o 'clock registration on Thursday.

There will be a group of people who have never done open -air or never done any type of evangelism that can be joined with Tommy and Scott Smith and they'll teach them sort of the way to get involved and the way to, you know, here's how you hand a tract, you know, smile at them or maybe say this, you know, because some people just get out there and what do

I do? And so that's an important thing I think you should have or should go to.

So if you decide to join us this year, you know, come early and hang out with these guys and they'll teach you those sorts of things.

But like you said, to answer your question, it is a good stepping stone. I mean, that's how I began. I was terrified.

I didn't know what I was doing and who are all these, you know, who are all these men out here? Why are they doing this?

What do I do next? And so watching you guys and having the opportunity to see your boldness was a chance for me, myself personally, to see that, hey, this can be done and if this is what

God's called you to do and inside your soul you're burning to share Christ, this might be a good platform for you.

Yeah, and one of the things that, you know, Bill Adams who runs Sports Fan Advocates International is probably one of the most organized men.

He sure is. That I've ever met. That's true. I mean, he's got everything figured out down to a tee. He does.

And, but the thing is that, you know, with this, one of the things he's done with this organization, the organizing of it, is he, and you mentioned earlier the team leaders, every team has a team leader.

Right. And he, you know, he really focuses on pouring into the team leaders. Right. So the team leaders pour into their teams.

That's right. And that is really helpful. I found that to be helpful. I've been a team leader,

I forget how many years, four or five years I think, but it was so helpful because you always knew as a team leader you could, if there's issues, anything, you could always go right to Bill.

Right. And yet for those that are on the team, we had a pretty solid team that came back each year and was regulars, and but we'd always get some new folks.

That's right. And the newer people always be, especially because you have that team leader who has been doing this for a while, it was just always good because I would always know, okay, here are the new folks.

Here's the team who's been doing this year after year after year. Yeah. They're good on their own. Right. I got to spend more time just training on the street, letting someone have a conversation.

Right. And they get stuck. They pull me into the conversation afterwards, it becomes a discipling time of just, hey, what'd

I do wrong there? Okay, this is, you know, did you see what I did here? This is a way of doing it. Yeah.

Maybe try this. And so I think it's really a good outreach because not only because the most important thing

Right. But it's because it becomes a good training field. That's right. For folks who just don't know how to evangelize or don't want to evangelize.

Now, I know this, and I'm gonna ask how you feel about it, but I know that when we get out with the larger numbers, and it's, you know,

Super Bowl is usually, what, about 110, 120? Yeah.

Roughly. So it's around 100 or more people. Yeah. And as we look at that, there's just an ease in evangelizing.

When you know, you're on a team of 15 people. Yeah. You're out with several teams that make up 100 people, and they're on every corner.

It's so much easier to share the gospel. It's so much easier to be bolder, I think. Do you find that to be the case with your different teams that you've had?

Oh, sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've had the privilege, this is my sixth Super Bowl coming up, and so the five

I've done before have always seemed to be the most relaxing. My first one was in New York.

And New York was wonderful. Yeah. It was a great time, and I actually got to see... It was warm.

I don't know about that. Well, I got to see, like, all sorts of different styles. I got to see, you know,

Tommy Waltz and Mike Stockwell and Tom Sadowski, and then we came over to where your team was, and I can't remember the square name with the big clock up there.

Oh, okay. It's Union Square. Union Square. And you had been there before, and so there was atheists that remembered you, and you knew their name.

And I got to see, you know, the one -on -one style that you guys do, you know what I'm saying? So I got to see every aspect. And so that first Super Bowl was like,

I was in awe. But I was so relaxed, like you said, because I was around. I felt safe, and I felt like, okay, these guys got my back, and it's sort of like it's a brotherhood.

And then you start to learn about these men, and then you either, you know, build relationships with them throughout the years, or, you know,

God calls you to do something else, which that's fine also. And that's the thing. I've been going to Union Square in New York for,

I think, going on 13 years now. Yeah, see that? And so I love New York because, I mean, we have mostly a

New York team. Right. I mean, the New York was the easiest Super Bowl for me because I'm just like, all right, we had our fast walkers or slow walkers, or, you know, so it's like, we could just say, okay, we all know, meet here, meet there.

We all knew where we were going. I just had to make sure there was someone with the folks that didn't know the way around New York.

But that's the thing I think that's always so good about doing those bigger evangelism events. It is so easy to evangelize because of the you feel emboldened when you have all your buddies.

That's true. And it's like, I have a military background. So I understand

I was stationed on a submarine. And so we were talking about tight knit group of guys.

And so we had to have each other's backs. And so I kind of affiliated a little bit with what we do now is when we're out there, somebody's got your back, you know, and I've heard of instances of guys, people, this guy took a punch for me, you know,

Mike Stockwell seems to be a punching bag for everybody. So Mike's just a big guy.

We had one event where Mike was up and some guy was just drunk.

Yeah. And he wanted to chase after Mike. Mike didn't know any of this happened.

The guy comes running, and I see him, and he's just charging. And I just literally step right into the way just to the side, put my foot out, made it look like it was purely accidental.

The guy just fell flat on his face. And he just, you know, and his buddy came pick, you know, picked him up.

And just was like, I'm like, Oh, dude, are you okay? Let me help you out. And his buddy picks him up with me. Like, dude, you're not doing so well.

And he's just like, Oh, let's get out of here. Let's get out of here. Okay, we just avoided that problem. And that's a good example of how everybody's got each other's backs.

They're always looking for, you know, trouble to be around. I'll say that that was actually that was an event. It wasn't Swartzman Outreach International.

It was Fall for Greenville. Oh, I've been a part of that too. Yeah. And it was just that that was a festival where there was a lot of drunks.

You don't get as much of that at the Super Bowl because they don't allow the drinking on the street. And that's the difference. We had it.

It was at a festival where people are drinking. I know about Greenville. So what do you look at this year's coming up where?

Because I follow sports big time. So it's here in Atlanta.

Yeah. So I mean, I'll be back in a week and a half. Yeah, I hope so. Way better than last year. We were in Minnesota last year.

Minnesota was brutal, man. But hey, God's still providential, you know, and sets us up there.

You know, hopefully, men and women heard the gospel while we were up there too. And the thing, you know, I'll tell you why

I think for people who are nervous with evangelism, I'll give you a couple reasons why Swartzman Outreach International Super Bowl event is so important.

One is, as we said, the camaraderie, the fact that you're surrounded by people. I think another is at a

Super Bowl, there's so much security, that you don't have to worry about what we had at Fall for Greenville. They're not going to let anything like that.

They have undercover police. They're watching for everything.

Because, you know, the city can't have anything happen. That's right. It's the NFL's biggest thing of the year.

And if there starts being problems, the NFL doesn't want to come back to the city. So you don't have to worry about a lot of that stuff, because they just, it's, they bring it, make sure that all that's taken care of.

And then it's just, if you get stuck, you get a question you don't have an answer to, there's someone on your team that has the answer.

Yep. You know, they go right to them. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing that I end up noticing and seeing.

I just think it's a great event. I love Bill Adams, the guy who organizes it. I love you, but I don't want to announce that on live radio.

That's all right. I'm surprised I'm even here talking to you. So any last words you want to say before you sign off?

Nah, just, you know, hopefully this will come out before, you know, registration ends. But if not, there's the

Kentucky Derby. And there's sporting events all over the country that you can go to. So go to www .sfoi

.org. Check on the events tabs throughout the year. He tries to stay a year in advance for all the events.

So there's plenty of stuff coming up, plenty of things to do in your part of the country and get involved. And what you just said there, at your part of the country, because Bill has organized teams across the country at different sporting events.

And so even if you're saying, well, I can't do Super Bowl outreach, there's something in your area. There's a ball field somewhere by you that you can go to.

All over the world, too. He's been in London, the Cricket Cup, all that. You went to London, right? I went to London for the

Olympics. I went to Toronto for the whole... The Grey Cup or something?

No, the NBA. Dude, that was the coldest... We'll wrap up with this. We'll wrap up with this.

So we go to there and I have never been... It was like 22 below zero. It was so cold.

The last day, we had good crowds earlier, but it got colder and colder and colder. But last day was so cold.

It was Bill and myself and I think it was Skip. And we're just sitting there and we ended up taking turns.

We said, okay, one guy's on the box for 20 minutes, 15, 20 minutes. Another guy, whoever just got off the box, goes inside to warm up for 20 minutes.

And the next guy gets ready, hands out tracks while one guy's preaching. Because it got down, it was just three of us at that station.

And what ended up happening was, I'm up there, it starts snowing. I'm literally... I was glad that I had the waterproof

Bible that you guys offer. But I had my waterproof Bible and it starts snowing and I'm looking and I'm brushing the snow off as I'm reading the text of the scripture.

And I literally... It's so cold. I'm wiping the snow off of my eyes and my eyelids actually froze shut.

And I literally had to use my fingers to separate them. And I looked at Bill and I'm like, I'm done.

Like my eyes are freezing shut. He goes, yeah, I think we're done here. Hey Jason, it was good having you here.

And looking forward to this year's Super Bowl outreach. So folks check out sfoi .org,

stands for Sports Fan Outreach International. Check them out, find an event in your area and go get involved.

All right. So I would hope that you would go and check out the Super Bowl outreach. If you get a chance, maybe that will be a new event for you.

It is a great event, especially if you are not someone who has gone out on major evangelism outreaches before.

We hope that you enjoyed the Wrap Report this week. We'll have some more interviews coming up as we go through this month.

Some more that we got from G3. So be checking them out. We got one special one for folks who are fans of Iron Sharpens Iron.

That will be a special episode that we'll have coming up that we did something really special there.

And so something that people don't usually get to hear. So stay tuned. Make sure you subscribe to the

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