October 2, 2003

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This is the dividing line The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us
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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Our host is dr. James white director of alpha
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Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the
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United States It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic
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Here is James white and indeed.
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This is a live program. And that means we invite your participation today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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Obviously since early very early tomorrow morning Way too early tomorrow morning.
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We're going to be leaving for Utah and I've got still way too much to get done between now and the time we we leave in the morning
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Not for the debate. I'm that's that's that see there's the there's the
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There's the notes and some questions and some documentation and that that we're ready for But I'm only have a few hours back home on Saturday afternoon before heading actually
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Saturday morning before heading to Brazil so way too much to get done so we could really use your assistance today in determining the direction of the program at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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No, I do not have a housekeeper. So I'm pretty much safe For those of you who have any idea what what in the world
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I was talking about there Mm -hmm my my how interesting things have happened in the national media
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I'm personally sick and tired of hearing about California I just I personally believe that we should just sort of Do a little sawing right along the
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Arizona, California border right along the Colorado River Valley. Give it a little push and just let the whole left coast just sort of float on out there and Do its do its thing, you know, it's just just Just too weird.
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You know what? I mean? Yes, the earth open up and swallow the whole the whole kitten caboodle.
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I mean pretty state, you know some of it Anyways, some of it looks like Between here and Yuma, which if you've ever driven between Phoenix and Yuma Is is bad stuff.
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But anyway I'm tired of hearing about all that and it has somewhat eclipsed more important issues like The Ten Commandments and issues like that, but you know, that's the way
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Yeah, Arizona would be pretty Some beachfront property all sudden Yuma would be a beach resort.
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Wouldn't that be great? Talk about growth, you know, Yuma is that place where you stop to eat the McDonald's?
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That's that's the only reason Yuma existed for a long long time but now Now now even
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Yuma's growing but anyway eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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Boy, did I did I step in it last time around? you know, I was just sitting here Tuesday morning and I was reading my volume two of post
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Reformation reform dogmatics and I was Reading neat stuff by various and sundry
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Of the orthodox reformed I love the use that term orthodox reformed
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I bet you an orthodox person as in the Religious tradition of Orthodoxy Eastern Orthodoxy Greek Orthodoxy Russian Orthodoxy, so on so forth.
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They would pick this book I would just have a cow at the constant utilization of the term
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Orthodox in regards to the reformed. But anyway, I was just I was just reading it and Enjoying it and you know,
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I had read some stuff about Canon issues and and textual issues and there's all sorts of neat stuff about And I did mention, you know
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Cardinal Bellarmine, you know, I mean these guys these guys Cardinal Bellarmine was
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It's just an enemy of the faith. That's the only way to describe him. Isn't it fascinating that that the post -reformation?
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Roman Catholic response the the counter -reformation response was to engage in the very same kind of Anti -biblical attacks focusing on canon issues alleged textual corruptions and so on so that we have in In so much of today's secular attacks upon Christianity And I was just you know,
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I was just thinking about stuff that I didn't know about Like that. I was looking at that. I picked up the the latest edition of the viewpoint that had arrived in the mail and was just making some comments and when
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I read one particular quote from from The article specifically a quote by John Jefferson Davis just in passing.
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I knew that there were people in the channel Who would go hey, I've I've heard that very sentiment before that sentiment was the the quote was the concordance model
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Does not take adequate account of the social context of the theological task and the historicity of all theological reflection the method tends to promote a repetition of traditional formulations of biblical doctrine rather than appropriate re contextualizations of the doctrines in response to changing cultural and historical conditions, etc, etc, etc and I said, yeah,
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I know you've heard that you've heard that somewhere before and I made mention of of that and I guess
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I'm not I Guess other folks can put up their websites and they can they can throw barbs out there about about sloganeering
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About people who just have these these Greek Hellenized doctrines these pure doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide and Sola Deo Gloria and and these are just these these doctrines that have no impact on life allegedly
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I've I don't have anyone ever met anyone who thought those doctrines had no impact on like I haven't
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I don't I mean talk about The straw men that are out there. It's absolutely incredible. But anyway And other folks can put up their websites and they can talk about this stuff every day and just bang away on it
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And that's perfectly fine. But if someone dares to say, you know what? I don't think there's any need for all this new stuff
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I don't think there's any need for all this, you know, we're talking about Recontextualization. So what does that mean?
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It's a big word sounds real nice. But what does recontextualization mean? Does that simply mean?
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Communicating the same eternal truths In different words and different languages and and always looking for ways to be a better communicator of the gospel
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That's generally not and that you know, it's nicely putting it but that's generally how it ends up working out You know,
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I see that phrase Recontextualizations all the time. I got used to it in seminary and I didn't go to exactly a a
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Conservative seminary and so, you know, I Look at that stuff and I go, you know what?
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I am content with God's truth and So I you know, there's some folks just really not happy that for some reason
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I would go, you know what I'm not I'm not following the Pied Piper I'm not joining this group. That's It's all of a sudden going.
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Well, you know, I Think there's you know, we we just need to get all these traditions together and we need to we need to learn from one another
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Well, I sorry but I don't understand how I'm supposed to learn from a tradition. That is fundamentally incorrect in its understanding of the very message of the gospel and the only way
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I can understand that assertion is if I don't believe that the message of The gospel is actually clear enough for anybody to know and identify a right version of it from a wrong version of it and I have problems when folks say well, you know, we really can't go to the text of Scripture because you know everybody is so so culturally influenced and and You know,
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I've been very falsely accused and I do mean falsely accused and those making the accusations
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No, it's a false accusation. At least they know that I say it is they may they may disagree, but they haven't demonstrated why?
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That I somehow think that I am free of all cultural restraints and no one No one who knows me or everyone dialogue me on the whatever make that kind of statement but there are those making that statement some misrepresentation and I've tried to explain that that's why you do
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Exegesis, that's what the rules of hermeneutics are all about is that they are meant to Allow you to deal with the text in an honest fashion from all sorts of different cultures
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They are meant to protect the text from the insertion of my cultural norms upon it
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That's what exegesis is all about and that's what you're supposed to be doing and Unfortunately, there are those who don't think that you can really do that.
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So So the conversation doesn't get very far unfortunately But you know, that's that's the way it that's the way it works,
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I guess so anyhow, oh You can you can call in on anything. Actually, we've got we've got one call already and I'm thankful for that and That number again is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and We can talk about that and talk about all sorts of other things
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As we move along this Thursday afternoon, of course, no dividing lines next week unless for some reason someone decides to just take the audio or something from the
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Debate to tomorrow evening and throw it out there or something don't think there's any reason to do that so probably no dividing lines next week and Should be able yeah should be able
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Lord willing on the Tuesday of The week after to be able to get back to a regular a regular
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Schedule of the dividing line for at least at least a little while there and not gonna be going out of town
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So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's go ahead and start Well, I don't know if we can take this call after the comments that I made though because this is from California and therefore this would be a
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Transcontinental call because we already have jettisoned California into the sea.
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It's it's no it's its own continent and given how wonky California is I would assume that once we
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Dismissed it from the the the continent It's currently attached to it would immediately begin to a float southward toward,
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Australia and would eventually attach itself just north of New Zealand and Then the the
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Aussies and the Californians could get together and can you imagine? What would happen if you if you put?
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California politics together with Australians It just yeah, it would just keep floating further left.
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That's right It just it would never be able to go right it could only go left so that's that's
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California, so Let's go ahead. This will be a this is definitely a long -distance call I didn't know we could take intercontinental calls, but we will take a call from Outside the
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United States and talk to someone now Micah in California. Hi Micah Dr..
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White Who? Oliphant oh,
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I've never heard of that name before So yeah, yeah, you know if we don't if my state doesn't float away from the cloud
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You know the smoke in the cloud from the recall. It's probably the pot smoke drifting it away. Yes. Yes With your earthquakes will eventually fall off into the sea anyway, so you want to worry well you know we can always hope for the big one and that would definitely pray prayers
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The imprecatory prayers yes, uh -huh Well actually yeah, I was having a talk with my wife last night regarding Charismaticism I came out of the charismatic church and came charismatic background and so I have some insight on it however there's a individual
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I've been chatting with on a message board regarding you know their seventh -day Adventist hmm so they they
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I Guess they have a extra biblical revelation from a woman named Ellen White Yeah, I didn't accept well.
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It depends on which seven -day seventh -day Adventist you're You're talking to I mean the original
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Seventh -day Adventist the the hardcore seventh -day Adventist would definitely view
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Ellen G White as a as having sort of a prophetic role But there are seven -day events today that would not believe that her writings are anything more than the the writings of You know a a very insightful type person, but that's that's the more modern less radical view of it
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Yes, I mean, it's not like it's scripture or someone's with that one right In that sort of that was sort of the same
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Reply and response that I would have given someone when I was a charismatic and we talked about prophecy The clinical gift of prophecy we always said well.
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This isn't on the same part as scripture Right in dealing with scripture though and reading, and I'm finding that you know if you claim to be speaking from God Then it's it's pretty much scripture
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So I guess that my question would be is what is the best argument against such ongoing revelation? Yeah, well
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Unfortunately I tried to engage someone in In a discussion not too many weeks ago who came into our chat channel which
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I'm sure you would know nothing about and you know chat channels and things like that is probably not part of your experience, but This individual was saying that they are
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They're reformed in their soteriology, which that's fine, whatever the term reform means anymore and But then they said but I'm I'm I also believe that God continues to communicate with his people today well
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Okay, I mean I can I can understand that that statement, and I can accept that statement
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I mean, I don't think God has left us Without any any Communication, it's the mode and means of that communication that we need to examine and consider
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I mean the Word of God is alive and powerful and the the Spirit of God applies the Word of God and God Does communicate with his people today in that fashion?
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Without to violate in the sufficiency of scripture, but it became very clear very quickly
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That's not what this person was talking about they started talking about the The very words that God had spoken to them that God had had given them
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Specific oral interpretations of passages and and had commanded them to do specific things and so I asked a very basic question
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I said all right Were these words that you could you could write them on a piece of paper?
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And if you did write them on a piece of paper, what would they be? Would they would they be scripture, and if they're not scripture, then what kind of revelation what kind of What kind of meaning are you attaching to the idea of God spoke to me and said this if it's
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God? Speaking then why isn't it scripture, and I just want to find this person ever thought about that I mean there's an there's an argument that could be made from a charismatic position
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That would at least give them some sort of a basis for for still Meaningfully holding to sola scriptura, and it would sort of go along these lines though I've not had one really offer this to me.
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It's just one that I've thought through and that would be well Obviously there are things that are not contained in scripture that were
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Spoken by prophets and apostles in in their ministries And if the
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Spirit gave them those words But then did not want to those words to be preserved for the edification of the entire church
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That would be a kind of revelation that was limited in time at that point, but does not end up being translate transferred down Through history etc.
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Etc. And I could at least you know if there would be at least some demonstration of you know
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I've thought this through I'm very concerned about sola scriptura I'm very concerned about the the normative nature of scripture and maintaining all that kind of stuff
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That's generally not what you get what you get is is just this this idea that well you know
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God speaks to me in a way he doesn't speak to you evidently and And this is what he said and you just sort of you sort of go from there, so If someone would present
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I would call that the best -case scenario I mean, it's fairly fairly clear how to respond to someone who says oh
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No, what what God says to me is is equal in authority to what he said to Paul or something like that That's one thing
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But as you said that's generally not what said what generally is said is well It has to be consistent with scripture.
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It's not on the par of scripture, but it's still God speaking Okay, well where do we have this kind of sub?
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theanoustos revelation and Especially what are the guidelines that are to be used in recognizing whether it is or is not
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God quote -unquote speaking What what are the guidelines that God has has given to us to test these things and if it is if it goes beyond?
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That the testability by scripture if it's something that that cannot be examined in the light of scripture
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Then how are you supposed to verify it and know that what you're feeling or what you think you're hearing?
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I guess is in reality in accordance with what God has has provided in his word and So, you know the problem in dealing with this and on just a theoretical level is that?
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you you don't have anything can sink your teeth into to examine in the way that people examined
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The writings of the New Testament for example in regards to consistency if you're just dealing with a theory
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Someone could say oh, I would never I would never believe anything that was not absolutely consistent with God's Word Well, let's get some examples.
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Let's let's turn on the channel between 20 and 22 here in Phoenix and Let's let's listen to what is said in the name of God over and over and over again make exam it for consistency
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Well when you do that, what do you? What what do you're called you're called a you know a
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Heresy hunter and you're you're dr. Nair and and you're narrow and all the rest that kind of stuff and so, you know
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I if someone that's why I asked for specifics from this fellow, you know Well, what does God say and if you wrote it down would it be revelation?
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And if it's just quote -unquote private revelation that has no binding authority upon anyone else
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Then why would you share it with anyone else? Why would you even you know make some some big some big deal of it?
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and Normally when I start pushing I discover that in in reality these individuals when you start asking about you know meaningful theology and doctrine and and and Really dealing with the text and doing the work that is required to deal with the text in a meaningful fashion
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That they're that's that's what they're actually trying to avoid with the sort of spiritual aspect of things and So, you know
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It's a it's it's a difficult issue to deal with for one simple reason and that is the narrative elements of the
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New Testament text are written during a period of time of inscripturation and so The the difficulty that has always been faced is is codifying the differences between a period of inscripturation when scripture is still being given and the normative experience of the church and Some would argue in essence that the normative experience the church should always be the same that there's always inscripturation going on But that has not been the viewpoint of the vast majority of those who have named the name of Christ No matter what century you want to go to there was very early on a recognition that just as in the
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Old Testament there had been a period of revelation Followed by the the codification of that the canonization of that the recognition of that the normalization of that That the same thing was true with the
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New Testament But if you're going to argue for this kind of continuing revelation You have to go to those narrative sections of the
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New Testament where you're talking about inscripturation You're talking about a special time that the vast majority of folks would agree is not taking place today
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And it is interesting to me that whenever you get these movements You can go back to the to the
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Montanists in the early church. So we're sort of crypto Charismatics all the way up through you know the
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Mormons, which you don't want to put them I'm not saying within the Christian Church, but they claim that and they claim an open canon and things like them each one of these groups when they start
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They are very much intent upon this this broad
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Charismatic capacity of revelation and so on so forth. However over time that will inevitably change as Canons are developed within that movement to sort of control
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Where it goes, I mean if there are no canons, there's no rules. There's no constraints
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Then no movement can long last and the leaders of those those movements begin losing control
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As they start developing followers who claim the same insightful Revelations that they do and so all of those movements and what was the last time there was a quote -unquote
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Revelation in Mormonism. I mean when it started off it was an almost everyday thing with Joseph Smith But that doesn't happen at all now.
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Well, why is that? Well because there has there has been a change over time and they just can't allow this freewheeling, you know
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I'm just gonna go out in the woods and have a have a quick conversation with God types of type things. So It's it's hard to deal with on a theoretical basis unless someone can
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You know lay out on the table. Here's what I am claiming is revelation now
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Let's examine it and man. I tell you I I get I get a lot of really how dare you even a ask
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To examine this type of responses right people when when we tend to discuss actually experience the same at one point
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I was I was actually kicked off of leadership of a I was teaching young children and Encountered them on a couple of points and actually kicked me out of the church because of it
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Just simply, you know asking them to define it from Scripture and that and the other sign gifts that they were flying
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One of the one of the interesting Things that came up in the discussion was having this person was that they had mentioned that none of the
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Old Testament prophets were infallible for example John Jonah called of God, you know does horrible things or just you know
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Disobeys God and then ends up going to Nineveh and then preaching that you know 40 days and then it will be destroyed
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And then it doesn't happen God instead saved Nineveh So it was this person's inclination that there can be prophecies that don't come true because of this
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Because of this change of mind of God in a sense. Yeah the the the
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Jonah example Came up a lot back during the Brownsville revival phase and it comes up all the time when people are trying to introduce a level of Of quote -unquote prophetic responsibility that is lesser than Deuteronomy 13 and 18
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And allows for this kind of sort of spontaneous The Lord spoke to me, but don't hold me as accountable as a scripture writing prophet type situation
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I think it's a gross misreading of Jonah because when when
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Jonah gets angry and Wanders off and sits under the the plant whatever that plant was
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Then in his response to God Jonah says I knew that you were going to do this
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I knew that you're a God of mercy and if people are just assuming that they have a verbatim
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Accounting of all of Jonah's preaching and that there is no element of repentance or anything whatsoever in that that they had never heard of Jehovah before they had no idea that whether Jehovah would or would not be merciful and there's all these assumptions that are that are read
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Into it which which go against God's own statement in Jeremiah that when he proclaims judgment upon a people it's within the context of seeking
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In many times it's in the context of seeking their repentance and that's what it's designed to bring about Bruce where addresses this issue in regards to open theists in God's lesser glory, so Yeah, it's it's funny.
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I've had to defend Jonah Against the charge of false prophecy by Mormons who tried to use him to deflect the documentation that Joseph Smith was very much involved in false prophecy and didn't know the future and So on and so forth even though his false prophecies were considerably more specific
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Than something something along those lines, so yeah nothing nothing new there at all Boy you start you've opened a
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Pandora's box though the next two callers want to discuss the same thing Okay, I really appreciate well you enjoy yourself there and that that that state you're in You bet okay.
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It's actually bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the
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Why did somebody put the wrong phone number in? In the channel three three four two ain't getting to it.
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I don't think eight seven seven seven five three three three four one will talk with Rodney and Jason but first we'll take our bottom of the hour break and Come right back right after this
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Okay, well, maybe maybe we'll Not come back.
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I Can't hear anything. It's dead Jim Hang on just a sec
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Hey, you said I did I said it says ready for a break. Yes, it does and here it comes now
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I'm gonna post that in the channel so everybody can see bye Man such a rare today
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So many stars Is the
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Mormon my brother Bethany house publishers presents James White's book is the Mormon my brother in television campaigns parachurch events and clergy fellowships all across the
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United States Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real
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Christians in contrast to Christian monotheism the belief in one God Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God and That Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection in his book is the
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Mormon my brother James White Demonstrates how this fact alone means Mormons and Christians are irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level
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If the Mormon my brother is now available from Alpha and Omega ministries book ministry You can order is the
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Mormon my brother from our website at www .aomin .org
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Incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth Letters to a Mormon elder by James White is a series of personal letters written to a fictional
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Mormon missionary Examining the teaching and theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints The book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style
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James White draws from his extensive apologetics ministry to thousands of Mormons in presenting the truth of Christianity With well -defined arguments
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James White provides readers with insight and understanding into the book of Mormon the prophecies visions and teachings of Joseph Smith the
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Theological implications of the doctrines of Mormonism and other major historical issues relevant to the claims of the
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Mormon elder get your copy today in the Mormonism section of our bookstore at a omen dot org
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Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book
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Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic
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He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven
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Viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the
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Bible calls a blessed among women and An invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth
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You can order your copy of James White's book Mary another Redeemer at a omen org
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It's not an easy way It's a journey refreshing refreshing break
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Ah Boy, you know Tomorrow night at this time.
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Let's see 430 is I think it's 530 at 530 up in Utah right now. We'll be we'll be setting up in Orson the
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Orson Spencer auditorium campus of the University of Utah and I will have
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I will have enjoyed a Crisp meat burrito at taco time by now
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At least 500 milligrams of sodium
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Through my veins Causing all sorts of havoc,
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I'm sure My blood pressure will be through the ceiling But I'll be
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I'll be great. Anyway, yes, I could have used a little bit of that right during that break there 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 let's let's talk with oh, no
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Every call we're getting is from outside the United States first we had Micah in the
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The nation of California now, we have Rodney in the nation of California as well.
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Hello Rodney How are you hearing us out there in the middle of the Pacific? Oh, I'm doing fine here in the
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People's Republic of California Did you know that did you know that you can wear dresses to work now?
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Yeah, isn't that great? We can we can do all sorts of things. It's it's it's amazing Doesn't it don't you ever like when you're driving down the freeway, you know sort of look around at people around you and get sort of scared
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Mm -hmm. Okay. I just wondered All right, well according to our
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Professional call screener who is just I mean took years of training in in giving me success distinct clear
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Explanations of exactly where everybody's coming from. All I got was same subject. I could have said ditto
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Ditto ditto would have been ditto would have been shorter, but ditto would have been unpopular today so anyway so Continue on with Micah's question,
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I guess Yeah in the same way Preface my my personal belief.
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I do believe in continuing revelation But my question to you
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Was kind of a twofold Let me ask you to find that continue revelation is in the sense of scriptural revelation.
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Yes Okay, prophetic prophetic scriptural revelation. So the canon is still open
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Right exactly my question was When I look at the
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Bible, which I do all those being true I see a model of how
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God speaks to to man in the Old Testament And it you know starts with Genesis and then it goes forward
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If we were in the Genesis time right at this moment, we would be looking forward to continuing revelation
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So I don't see how that can stop without on the other hand Interfering with the unchanging nature of God and his communication man well now
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Rodney when you say you believe in continuing revelation what has been revealed since the revelation of Jesus Christ in A Contained in the
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New Testament from from your perspective. I'm oh, yeah. Oh, okay. All right That's all right, that's all right that helps me to help you understand
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You know it you're not coming from the same position that Micah was in other words Yeah, and that definitely helps but I would point out that a couple things first of all if the argument is well
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This would this would violate God's unchanging nature I find that a little bit unusual coming from the
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LDS perspective in light of Joseph Smith's assertion that We have imagined supposed that God is
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God from all eternity I'll refute that didn't take away the veil such you may see so the idea of an unchanging or immutable
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God is not a part of classical historical LDS theology in the first place. So just simply on an on a
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Philosophical level I've never understood how and the LDS Church could really make an argument along those lines, but Leaving that to the side.
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I would point out that revelation took place and what we might call spurts
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In the sense that there were entire generations when there was no active scriptural revelation both during the period of the
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Old Testament 400 years between Malachi and the time of Christ the
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Jews themselves recognized that the bath coal the voice of God had departed from Israel at that time and The New Testament writers seem to see the revelation of Jesus Christ as Culminative.
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I mean they view the Old Testament revelations as pointing to The culmination of what
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God is doing in Christ Jesus and when that culmination takes place you have the explication of that Through the
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Apostles of Christ But what would their what is missing? in in what they delivered to us they are called the pillar and I'm sorry the
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Foundation of the church Jesus Christ itself being the chief cornerstone What is missing?
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That that the church would need because I'm very convinced that the the need of revelation the purpose of revelation is for the guidance enlightenment sanctification and and comfort of the church and So it would seem to me if the quote -unquote canon remains open that there would be entire segments of Time during which the church exists when something that was needful for the church to know
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Was not in her possession And when I examined the LDS scriptures and and this is what
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I you know, I did say to Micah you gotta admit I said one of the hard things is many of these discussions are theoretical you need to have something specifically you can sort of dig your teeth into and I think you'd have to admit that many of the sections the
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Doctrine and Covenants for example were Were only relevant at the time they were written. I mean there were specific commands to a specific person
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Well section 114 doctor comes David W Patton set up your business go on a mission that type of thing
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But there you know, is that revealing something that was needful to the church, I don't see anything in the
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Book of Mormon Certainly obviously in the book right price and things like that. I see revelations that are directly contrary to Scripture So what would be missing that those that those books?
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Would would allegedly need to reveal to us In my opinion
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I would say Further Specific Presentation of the concept of atonement by curry
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Really? We're in the Book of Mormon. Yeah in the Book of Mormon particular. I'm not a
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Typical Mormon, I guess I don't I'm not dogmatic
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To say that know that every word of the Doctrine and Covenants is for me today.
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Oh, okay, but The Book of Mormon I would I would say that as far as in my life, but yeah,
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I do find some clarification of the principle of atonement and some clarification on the principle of baptism
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But are these that you know, obviously I would disagree especially on the atonement issue In fact,
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I would see major conflicts between the the book of Hebrews And its teaching and that of Joseph Smith even the early
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Joseph Smith I believe there's a massive difference between the Joseph Smith of 1830 and the Joseph Smith of 1844 and you might in fact agree with that I don't know.
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I do. Yeah, I see. I see a real difference there, but But my
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I guess my question would be is if if continuing revelation is normative can there ever be a final and full revelation that is
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Applied In the sense of the Spirit of God giving insight and understanding without the need for new revelation
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I think there I think there are some self -evident Things that are our foundational that are not open to or need in need of a continuous expository of discussion for example
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There is a God There is but one God just one No, Jesus Christ is the
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Savior You know, but doesn't do you see what I'm saying?
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Yeah, but those aren't those things clearly revealed in Scripture already Exactly, but that's my point.
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There are things in the What I view is open canon in a general sense.
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There are some specific Points in that canon that are so foundational and so If you will self -evident that no further
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You know no further discussion is warranted like the existence of God Okay, there is
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God Well, I understand that but but my my question is in light of the initial statement that you made
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That is that the continual revelation is normative Even from your perspective there was no continuing revelation
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Even even granting the Book of Mormon. Okay, let's let's step onto your your ground for a moment
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There was no revelation from 421 AD until 1830 right
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Right, so doesn't that militate against your own position? Same types of things happening in the
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Bible like you indicated earlier, you know, 400 year period in the Old Testament I see some
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Obviously there were people alive after this, you know original 12 died that were
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You know eyewitnesses of the of the accounts in question, but did not continue to You know record at least they didn't record
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A revelation per se So but you wouldn't would you believe that there was there was not a
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Christian Church during that time. Oh, certainly so you know, I believe I believe I Believe there was a
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Christian Church You know from the moment that Christ established it until this day.
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I don't believe That the church was disrupted I believe there was a earthly organizational
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There was a disruption in sense of Authority Within that organizational structure.
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There was a disruption as far as they're being real true Christians who were really following the gospel who met together
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In a church setting or what we call today a church setting. Yeah So so you hold to a form of the great apostasy.
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Do you hold the necessity of? Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods and and limit revelation to a priesthood concept or not
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No, no, it's not. I think in my perspective the priesthood is a is a matter of organization
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I I Wouldn't be dogmatic about it and say that it's required for salvation
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And that obviously I greatly differ from the majority of the
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LDS people Yeah, yeah Yeah, it's hard to it's you know,
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I have to keep asking questions because it isn't the normative normative perspective which would you know raises numerous other issues in the sense of the same
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Theological authority that gives you the Book of Mormon also gave you the Doctrine and Covenants and and later
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I guess you could argue not till the 1880s the Pearl of Great Price, but I suppose you could argue a disruption of authority between Joseph Smith and LDS Church the 1880s, but in I in either case
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I does sort of put you in a position of sort of picking and choosing what elements you are going to accept and and what?
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Elements you don't I certainly would agree with you that there's a vast difference in the theology of the Book of Mormon with that of at least the
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Utah version of the Doctrine and Covenants in the later revelations of Joseph Smith, but I I I think that tells you more about Joseph Smith from the start than it does the theory that says well
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Joseph Smith got started on the right track but eventually bounced off the right track
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I I wouldn't see that as a really strong alternative, but a bit as it may
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The initial statement, and we've got some other callers mean to get to the initial statement was well I see this as a norm you know normative thing and yet I think
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You know not only have we pointed out that there were periods of time when there was not
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That kind of situation you've you said there were 1 ,400 years of it And my my assertion would be that when you have the revelation of Jesus Christ you have
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Everything leading up to him You have the change of Hebrews chapter 1
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Where the old way was using prophets and speaking to the fathers, but now in these last days
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I think the concept of the last days Is also important as well
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You you would not need revelation past the last days and the ushering in of the the preaching of the gospel
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I think likewise would then enter into this idea that there would be a need for a continuing revelation
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I think that God can reveal with finality and with Sufficiency the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and then apply that truth that gospel throughout the whatever period of time he chooses to Continue to draw in his elect people, and I don't think it would require a constant giving of new revelation and in fact
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Even from your own perspective if you limit yourself to the Book of Mormon I don't know what your theories in the
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Book of Mormon are but the historic LDS viewpoint is that the finality of? that that revelation took place in 421 ad so There would be no
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Continuation beyond that outside of the idea of prophets and apostles adding to that which again takes us back to well
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Does that mean there cannot be a combative? Revelation to which everything was pointing and I would
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I would disagree that there can't be I think that there is I think that's what Hebrews 1 Teaches to us and so but I appreciate
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Rodney you're calling in as we ever chatted in general before yes I thought we had okay alrighty.
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Well. We'll let chat with you in general again. Okay. Thanks a lot and bye -bye Yes There's tears
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Cala to California calls and now we we head across the we head across the pond after I turn my phone off and we head across the pond to the
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United Kingdom now for our next call in the dividing line and Talk to Jace hi
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Jace How are you sir, I'm fine, I'm fine I Just I'm ringing about the
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I'm going to ring in about the issue of the charismatic gifts because I've you know
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I've experience of you know of people of charismatics who would often give a word of knowledge about about Something about about a person or a situation
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But I believe that they they did so in a way that it doesn't have to scripture Yeah, I mean, that's that's the the common the common claim,
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I'm receiving a word of knowledge and This word of knowledge is and then you have everything from something very very minimal to Something very specifically or something along those lines.
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Yeah, that's that's a very common Common thing to see both on television here and on radio and Obviously people who practice the word of knowledge type stuff are claiming a supernatural source of supernatural knowledge that is outside of Of what has been revealed revealed in scripture and evidently they believe that the scriptures teach a
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Continuing ministry of the Holy Spirit of God wherein there is this need Outside of the illumination of the spirit based upon scriptural principles the application of scriptural principles for this continuing flow of supernatural knowledge
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Yeah, I mean my my friend for instance is quite charismatic. We'll say that You know there are there are some issues in people's life.
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They're very specific issues where You know they think you know people can't simply know what
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God's will for them is personally Yes with You know by just reading the scriptures
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For you know for example them If God is calling them into a particular ministry
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So they're being called to go and you know minister to people in Africa right or something they
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You know they can't know that the God wants them to do that simply by by reading the scriptures.
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They But yeah, yeah Yeah, that's that's where I would
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I would disagree with both the statement they cannot know from reading the scriptures and That they quote -unquote need the leading of God's Spirit as if the leading of God's Spirit can be separated from that which
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The Spirit has given to us in scripture. That's where there's a fundamental. I think Difference of approach that needs to be that needs to be examined and that is
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If if one is to embrace that perspective and that is that there is a need for a special supernatural ministry of the
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Holy Spirit That does not involve the illumination of the text of scripture and the principles of scripture in application to an individual's life
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Instead it involves a flow of new revelation or Of supernatural knowledge, that's where I immediately say that is a fundamental denial of solo scripture
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It's a fundamental denial of sufficiency of scripture, and I think it misses the real point of how
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Christians are supposed to deal with the Scriptures and to to meditate upon the scriptures.
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Why should we be meditating upon these scriptures if there is not this this indeed? supernatural
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Ministry of the Spirit that helps us both to understand them and then the meditation helps us in that gaining of godly wisdom in the application when people say well
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I Want to know what God's will for my life is well the Bible's already told us what? God's will for your life is it is to live a life that is honoring to him in holiness and sanctification
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Well, but I want I want specifics ah, but you see the specifics Involve that growth in grace and godly wisdom
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That marks the patient person who over time
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Evaluates themselves honestly and their gifts honestly you gave an excellent example The the person saying well,
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I've been called into the ministry. I know so many people Who said they were called into the ministry?
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and The the first thing that that crosses my mind is okay Well, let's let's let's compare this to scripture the scripture when it talks about those who are in fact to be elders gives
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Particular parameters and guidelines and I have met many a person who felt themselves called in the ministry that if you just sat down with the
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Qualifications that the scriptures themselves give and if you just sat down with with Paul's words to Timothy and trust these things to men who will be able to teach them to others
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Some of these people could not teach their way out of a paper bag They had they were not given by God the capacities to fulfill the office but they felt called to it and I believe me
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I grew up in In evangelicalism and I got you know,
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I heard especially in the in the churches I was in later in my teen years
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I heard all about this this calling stuff and these feelings that you're supposed to have and and all the rest that stuff and as A result
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I saw people go into ministry who were not gifted to go into ministry in any way shape or form they were gifted to do a lot of other things, but they were only gifted to fail as far as ministry was concerned and So I I'm accustomed to that but there was it was not until I came to a
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Reformed Baptist Church where in a very blunt fashion
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My now fellow elder at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church was talking to me about how in most
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Reformed Baptist churches when someone Comes up to one of the elders and say
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I've been called in the ministry The elders will sit down with that individual and they will counsel that individual and in fact they will they will
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Examine that individual in the churches. I came out of that would be considered a horrible thing to do
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You never examine someone when they say the Spirit has told them to do something
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But in Reformed Baptist churches, there would be an examination and if upon that examination the the elders recognize
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That this individual has is unable to communicate anything to other people they will simply directly tell him
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You make some very good points there And but and of course the you know, the the more sensible charismatic fact that I've met would you know wouldn't
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Say that they know that it would be wrong to do that But they you know, they would say that so, you know that God can you know can still speak, you know
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Sympathetically through you know, see people being through God being something spontaneously to mind here was to Quote Wayne Grudem.
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Well, well now let me back up because I I'm right now trying to be somewhat charismatic in exercising the gift of interpretation and You you don't exactly sound like a
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Texan and so you just said something that I didn't understand Basically because It's the accent issue my brother and It was very difficult because sometimes the
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English people it does just sort of run things together You know what you say, but I don't really understand what you're saying So could you repeat what you just said because it sounded like you said something about prophetic revelation
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But then Wayne Grudem somehow became a prophet. Well, how do what happened? Saying that that Pete that you know charismatics wouldn't deny that you know that it's
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Sensible to you know to examine a person just you know and look at their their qualifications, but they but they you know
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They would say that That alongside that you know, God can still give
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You know words of knowledge or prophecies which yeah But but God brings spontaneously to mind and that that's just just quoting a term that Wayne Grudem used
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But if it is if it is spontaneously to mind are we talking about a a
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Truth that is based upon what we've studied in Scripture or we're talking about something that is not commensurate with or a part of the revelation of Scripture a and B in regards to the first part
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I should have gone B &A I guess When you say well sensible charismatics would recognize the need for examination but upon what basis if a person says
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The Lord has has told me has is leading me into the end of the ministry
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But I'll say that the other spirits have to be tested And if it's obvious that the other somebody
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You know isn't suitable for you know, see if you examining that person they would you know, they would disregard that That word of knowledge as fault.
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I've just never seen that happen I have just I've just never seen within the context in fact within a lot of evangelicalism
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There is a real hesitation Irritations To to in any way shape or form say you know what?
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I just I don't you know, you say the Lord told you this but you know I just don't see any evidence whatsoever that the
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Lord has then followed up by giving you the gifts You need to do what he told you to do. I just don't see that happening
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That's that's what I'm just simply saying as far as the B part But the a part the question is is it extra biblical revelation or is an understanding of the revelation that is already there?
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Hey Jay, thanks a lot for your call from the United Kingdom today I had people in the channel asking me to do a
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British accent. And so I'm doing my best. Thank you very much Jay Thank you.
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And even even CDS silly Britain channel right now It's all England day in Prasapaligee on today
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So thank you so much for listening to the dividing line today as I mentioned They're not gonna be here next week because I'm going home to jolly England and now it's actually
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Brazil But anyways, we'll be back the week after that. Thanks for listening. Goodbye Web at a omen org that's a o
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MIM dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks