March 29, 2019 Show with Tim Geiger on “Gender, Sexuality & What it Means to be Human”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

I almost said Cumberland County, Florida, and I don't think I've ever done that since I started this program.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who

are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this final day, at

least final weekday of March 2019, March 29th, 2019.

And we are continuing a discussion that we began not long ago on the

theme, gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human.

Although we already started this conversation, we are now doing it with a first

-time guest.

We began the conversation with Todd Pruitt, who is one of the speakers at an

upcoming conference that I'm going to be mentioning in a moment.

But today we have another person who is speaking on the roster, Tim Geiger, and

he is going to be speaking on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, not only on today's show, but at the upcoming

conference I just mentioned.

Tim Geiger had been struggling with secret same -sex attraction for 20 years,

and due to the grace and mercy and transforming power of our wonderful and sovereign

Jesus Christ, he is now president of Harvest USA, he's a teaching elder in the

Presbyterian Church in America, very commonly known as the PCA, and he has a Master of

Divinity degree from Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania, and now lives

with his wife and family outside Philadelphia.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Tim Geiger.

Thanks, Chris, it's a pleasure to be here.

It's a pleasure to have you on, and I'm going to give our email address right away for our listeners who may have

questions of their own for you.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N

at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA,

and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could obviously

easily understand that there might be those out there who have personal and private

questions and prefer to remain anonymous, so you will be granted that request if that is the case.

But if it's not a personal and private question, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, Tim, before we go into your personal story, please tell us about Harvest USA.

Sure, Chris.

Harvest USA is a ministry that has been 35 years,

a Presbyterian church.

Any fond memories of that church when the late Dr. James Montgomery Boyce was still with us?

I used to go to the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology when it was hosted there, and I still go,

but it's not there anymore, it's at another location outside of Philadelphia, but I'm sorry I interrupted you.

I just have such enormously wonderful memories of that church and of Dr. Boyce, and so

those are also connected with my late wife, Julie, because she loved Dr. Boyce, and we would actually go see him

every time we had the opportunity in New York City when he was.

Visiting.

But I'm sorry I interrupted you.

No, no, no.

Not at all.

It's yet another thing that we have in common, Chris, and the Lord used you.

And I went through the ministry at 10th

Church, too, too long after the ministry began back.

In 1983.

We started as a ministry to the gay male community in the city, but pretty quickly

broadened out when

we began helping men and

people

struggling.

The Lord has seen fit to prosper our ministry through the years, and we have a two -fold mission today.

We continue to help

people, but we also, that the

church increasingly become, actually

can grow in faith and repentance.

And I think that

that will really grow in repentance.

You can't do it on your own.

You can't do it privately.

You know, you used a key word there, I think, a word that has become, as you

probably know, extremely unpopular, especially in the 21st century, but it started long before the

21st century.

But that's the word repentance.

And perhaps, even specifically connected to the issue that we're discussing today,

when it comes to homosexuality, there seems to be a growing movement

of evangelicals, even professedly conservative evangelicals who believe in the

inerrancy of scripture and so on, who believe at least in the minimal elements

of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But they seem to have the impression that there is a neutrality about

homosexuality unless you physically consummate that desire in some way.

In other words, you're okay and you can be a quote -unquote gay Christian for the rest of your

life, but you just can't physically act upon it.

That would be the more conservative bent of this movement that I would be

personally in disagreement with because of the fact that they don't, I don't think that the movement takes

seriously enough even the thought life or the attraction itself that

exists amongst some people.

Could you respond to what I said there?

Yeah, I would agree with you, Chris.

I think that anyone who

interacts with anyone, whether it's

just prairie to God's design for sex and sexuality,

is evident.

I would tend to think that part of walking in repentance would be to acknowledge that even the disordered

desire, the

good design

for who

struggle with same -sex attraction to not only the

first part of having changed behavior is to have a changed heart and to begin to understand what it means to

submit kind to sexual desire to the

Lord and find contentment in what He provides.

Amen.

Well, tell us something about this upcoming conference.

In fact, it starts, if I'm not mistaken, it starts tonight.

It starts in about two hours.

It starts tonight in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and this is the conference, Gender,

Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human.

And as I said, Tim Geiger is one of our speakers today, Todd Pruitt is another, and

Carl Truman, who I've had on this program before, is the third man on the

roster, but unfortunately Carl's schedule is so hectic that I could not include him on one of my

interviews promoting this event, but I look forward to getting Carl back on nonetheless in the future.

But to tell us about this conference, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference on Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to

be Human.

The Blue Ridge Bible Conference is being put on by Covenant Presbyterian Church, which is,

and as you

mentioned the topic this year is Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human.

And

if

anybody wants more details they can go to AllianceNet

.org, that's the website.

Of our friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, we always try to promote as much as we can the events that

they are helping to orchestrate.

And go to AllianceNet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to wherever you see Gender, Sexuality,

and What it Means to be Human, with that famous Leonardo da Vinci

drawing on the advertisement.

I forget what that was called, do you remember the name of that Leonardo da Vinci drawing?

It was something that has to do with the span of a man's arms being equal to his height.

But anyway, I don't know if you've...

You must have paid more attention in school than I did.

Well, I was an art major.

No, but you should be ashamed you don't remember that.

Yes, I definitely am.

I'm ashamed every day I do this show.

I'm always saying something incorrect or stupid or what have you.

But now we're going to go into your own fascinating story.

If you could tell our listeners, to start with, what kind of religious atmosphere

you were raised in, if any, and when you first became aware of your same -sex attraction.

And then, of course, the most glorious and wonderful and amazing part of your story is how you

came to Christ and discover his saving grace and mercy and transforming power.

Amen.

Well, I

continue to

be an unwilling participant.

I am the oldest of five kids.

I was Pennsylvania.

And I was raised in a church, to the best of my knowledge,

in my family,

through

the agency of my...

I'm not sure why he kept me there, except it was a place where I heard his word read

and proclaimed, I think, fairly early.

The first time I met him

and had

a relationship with him through Jesus was at the age of five.

Pretty much where my spirit was, a

Lutheran

church, 35 years ago, you know,

not completely off the...

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was a part of the ELCA, not the...

So the ELCA, and it was still,

you know, fairly orthodox, proclaimed.

And you know, to a certain extent, I heard...

Around that time, I also began to feel drawn toward other boys.

I didn't have any friends growing up who were boys.

All of my friends...

I found that I was drawn to them, not sexually, because I

wanted a friend.

I wanted the

TV show, The

Partridge Family.

Oh yeah.

But...

David Cassidy played the role.

It was played by David Cassidy, yeah.

And I wanted to have Keith as a brother.

I wanted to have him as a friend, because there was something about him that made me

feel free.

When I imagined being...

And what I was really looking for at the time was

companionship.

Someone, again, to build me up.

I began to find that there was someone who wanted to build me

up a couple of years later.

Named...

Why?

I don't even remember how we met, other than we went to the same school.

But again, he was in the same classes.

And Jimmy began to sexually abuse me.

Early age, I had no idea what was going on, except what was being communicated to me was,

finally, here is telling

me what it means.

And the means by which I learned...

After a couple of years, Jimmy moved away.

A fantasy life that continued for years.

Now, was your father's pornography homosexual in nature?

No, no, it was heterosexual.

And unlike so much of the pornography today, none of it was electronic.

It was all magazines and books.

But I would turn to that, Chris, sometimes multiple times a day as an escape.

Lonely, I would turn to that when I felt...

Any time I was really looking at pornography and enter into that fantasy,

I would wind up comforting myself through pornography in that

way.

But I'm assuming from what you just said, this pornography, though, that was becoming a

part of your life, you had some heterosexual attraction, even as a young person, because of what

you just said about the nature of the pornography.

It wasn't homosexual pornography.

I'm guessing here.

I don't know.

But if you could, explain about that.

Yeah, so I think

that I tend

to agree with you at some level, but the images that I latched on

to pornography were the male images.

So, you know, there weren't a lot of them, but I would look at a male image, read a story.

What would it be like to be that guy?

What would it be like?

And so that became, like, for many, many years.

I was a Christian while all of this was happening, and the little bit that I knew about Scripture,

and yet I couldn't stop.

I felt, I mean, the guiltier I felt, the more ashamed I felt, the more I felt drawn to want

to comfort my

peers.

I became increasingly discouraged.

I became... God hated me.

And I mean, that just fueled my need for comfort more and more.

I became depressed.

I

actually

really

felt that

at least as many

good were...

It wasn't...

It really brought everything crashing down in my life in my late 20s, but I realized I couldn't

continue.

I first

began

listening to the

Sermon to the Tenth providentially, a

series from Romans that taught...

And for the first time, Chris, I...

The Spirit brought to life these doctrines that I had read about but never really understood.

And one was that there was no way that I could be good enough to earn God's favor.

I had to die on my behalf.

No Christian could ever be taken from me in order to be removed.

It just really began

giving me a different maybe

about God and myself might not be...

At 10th that I first learned about Harvest USA, even

though it was a separate thing in their bulletin.

And Chris, I took that bulletin home.

I took that bulletin home.

Time after time, I would pick it up.

You know, sometimes I would even pick the phone up and begin dialing the number and up

again.

Even though the Lord was bringing a new understanding into

my heart, what

I had done, and was still so confused because I thought I was...

And I thought that is because no one in church ever talked about it.

The only context I ever heard will

behavior discuss conversation with another Christian and say,

hey, here's what I'm struggling with.

What I was afraid of them

saying in

return, 1997, told

me two very for me.

One was.

And the second thing, he

struggled

with and what he

identified that was, was

I died.

And it's really amazing when you think about that, how all of that fits together.

James tells us in James chapter one, that when we experience temptation, we should

know that we're tempted.

When we experience desire,

temptation began the

process of

me really, what I was struggling with

behind the same so

many other people struggle with, not

just kinds of sin, sexual and non -sexual.

Those kinds of, to the

extent that

I began to

submit those

desires to God and to

begin to find contentment in my

life, I

didn't have to

run to

sin to satisfy those

desires.

Because I could be content in Christ.

I could do, you know, I could, I could experience what Paul talks about in Philippians chapter four

through seven, when he, when he describes this peace of God that passes understanding.

That, you know, that peace of God,

isn't some magical voodoo, it's, it's actually believing God's promises

and resting in who we are as people who

have been,

particularly during the first couple of

years, I

began to

notice,

been

dating

a woman, thousand

one, a beautiful 15

walk together,

obedient, praise

God.

Well, we have to go to our first station break right now.

I want to pick up where we left off when we return.

And as I said earlier, if anybody out there has a question of your own that you would like to ask Tim

Geiger, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A

-R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Tim Geiger after these messages from our sponsors.

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advertisers that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are now back with our guest today, Tim Geiger, and Tim Geiger

is someone that is on the speaking roster at the upcoming conference, Gender,

Sexuality, and What it Means to be.

Human.

This is the Blue Ridge Bible Conference, which is being held in Harrisonburg, Virginia, starting

tonight and running through the 30th Saturday of March.

And he is also the president of Harvest

USA, and he is an elder in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America.

And by the way, I think I might have forgotten to give you the website for Harvest USA.

In case I forget to do it later, let me do it now.

It's HarvestUSA .org, HarvestUSA .org.

If you have a question for Tim, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A

-R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

And before we go to any listener questions, Tim, I wanted to kind of backtrack

on some of your story.

Sure.

Every time, or at least 99 of the time that I can remember, I've

heard a person who struggles with same -sex attraction, either whether they were

not at all a Christian, as lost as lost could be, and perhaps even fully committed

to that activity and proud of it and celebratory of it, or even Christians who have repented of it.

Somewhere in the story, almost every time I can remember, their stories

involve two things.

And of course, I'm not trying to broad brush here because there are individuals who are an

exception to what I'm about to say, but typically you hear that the person, especially when we're talking about a

male person involved in homosexual activity, or at least in same -sex attraction,

they were neglected in some serious level of neglect by their own father,

and they were sexually molested by an older male figure in their life, whether it be a relative or

neighbor, a friend or a stranger.

I know that the second was a part of your story.

Was the first a part of your own testimony?

Because I don't remember you saying anything about your relationship with your dad.

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up, Chris.

I, you know, like so many other instances,

was very

emotionally,

pretty much sitting in, you

know, it turns out as I learned, he

was a very broken man, and I don't think he had

much to offer, certainly didn't have much to offer,

married up until the

day he died,.

But...

Now when you have had conversations with other people with same -sex attraction, is

the same true as far as a typical scenario with lesbianism?

Is it also true that very often, if not most often, a girl who is neglected by her mother,

and perhaps was sexually molested by a woman, has the same kind of unfortunate

spiral down into perversion and a lifetime, if not

rescued by God himself, of this either same -sex attraction or even ongoing

physical consummation of that attraction?

Sure.

I'll answer that, and then...

Sure.

...generality with you as well.

Typically,

women who wind up

struggling are abused,

often abused, not where

a woman is abused by a

man abused.

And they don't tend to report the same kind of

men and

women,

kind

of, that there's no guarantee that a

man or a woman experiencing those circumstances is going to wind up struggling with same -sex attraction.

Right.

And one of the reasons why we

merge different

ministries for men struggling with same -sex attraction and men struggling with same

-sex attraction was because we found that, probably 95

of the time, their back story was

typical for a man who's

in pornography to have the, at least

the exact, go

out and teach

experiences

shaped by other

people

and God in

particular.

Ways.

And it's just some people...

Now, having said what you said, I believe, and I've said this before in the program,

and even your colleague who's going to be speaking at the upcoming conference that starts tonight, Todd

Pruitt, he agreed with me that there needs to be

clarity on the issue when we are discussing sexuality in regard to the difference

between heterosexual and homosexual, even though all sex, whether it be

heterosexual or homosexual, outside of the marriage bed is sin and damnable,

but at the same time, heterosexual desires are not only natural,

but they are a gift.

I mean, that's why we can get married and procreate, etc.

Whereas homosexual desires, and especially obviously activity, are

unnatural and perhaps even more dangerous to the psyche and so on.

So wouldn't you say that there is a distinction to be made?

Because I know that there are a lot of people in outreach

to those struggling with same -sex attraction that seem to minimize the severity of

that unique sin.

In fact, some will even go on to say something as extreme as, look,

homosexuality is no more of a sin than gluttony or stealing office supplies

at work or wishing that you owned your

neighbor's Cadillac and coveting over his property.

Isn't there something uniquely distinct and even dangerous about

homosexual desire and physical consummation of it?

I hear exactly what Todd, and so

I can't speak directly to that.

What I would say is

that

on same

-sexual desire, that is not directed toward one's spouse.

Both of those are...

You know, there are distinctions in

how

they relate to one another, even in

societal lust.

But God didn't create us to be sexually...

Sexual desire is something that is a gift from God, but it's something that we're

called to steward and to only act on when

it's within the...

Fairly frequently with men who don't struggle with same -sex attraction, and they say, well, you

know, at the convenience store,

you know, that is...

You know, perhaps that's not an explicitly drawn -out sexual fantasy, but that

is a misuse, a sinful misuse of sexual

desire that is just as sinful as saying, boy, you know, that

other guy is attractive over there.

But if he used a different word, let's say he just said, wow, that woman is stunning.

She's really a remarkably beautiful woman.

Is there something wrong with a Christian man saying something like that?

No, because to the extent that you say that that person is beautiful,

or that then, yeah, you're acknowledging as someone to whom God has

given an aesthetic sense, that person is beautiful.

But if in your mind, if you

say, boy, you know, it would sure be nice to

be physically involved with that person.

It would sure be nice to get something out of that person to serve me.

Whether that person is your own gender or another gender, that's a

sinful misuse of that person.

That's envy.

That's covetousness.

Yes, in fact, you know, obviously we both know that Jesus Christ said that you've committed adultery already if you

have those desires in your heart.

But I guess the difference would be, though, that there is never an acceptable

sexual attraction that one can have towards someone of his own gender, whereas

even with the most seasoned of Christians, there will be a

guard he has to put around himself because of a natural God -given attraction to the opposite sex.

And even like we have a profound example of that in the Old Testament with

Joseph, when Potiphar's wife was seducing him, he didn't hang around and

evangelize her.

He ran from her because he was afraid of what he might do, I'm

assuming.

So I'm just saying that I think that there is, in fact, I'm convinced that there is definitely a difference

between the sin of abusing a gift of sexual attraction, which is heterosexual,

than someone trying to say that it is equal on every level to have a homosexual attraction,

as long as it's not consummated physically, if you understand what I'm saying.

Sure.

And I mean, just to put it simply, if the Lord did not give me

to steward my wife, I would have no desire.

Right.

The way that God would be calling me to steward my sexual desire is

to—has given me sexual desire toward my wife.

And it is completely right and appropriate that I should feel that toward her.

By the same token, other

women as well.

It's not appropriate for me to—.

Of course.

It's only appropriate for me to steward that desire.

Well, I'm also happy to hear that God has obviously transformed you in that way

because I have heard other people who,

unfortunately, will call themselves gay Christians.

And they'll say, yes, I am gay, but I don't act upon it physically.

And this is the way I am.

It's basically an attitude of waving the white flag, saying I've given up on any hope of God changing

me.

I am this third category of gender, if you will, and I will

just obey God by not physically acting upon it.

So I would disagree radically with that understanding of things.

Definitely.

And, you know, today we have this whole movement within, you

know, I'm a tradition.

We have this group of people who call themselves gay

Christians.

Interestingly, I think calling

yourself a gay Christian, it probably means something different to them.

But one thing to

land on is that calling yourself a gay Christian means this is now your identity.

Right.

And they don't look to see how the Lord might sovereignly work to

change your affections, to change your desire.

I should say, and this is one of the ways in which,

as they've

said, the proof of your repentance is that you're going to develop

and hopefully get married.

And that simply isn't the case for everyone.

Right.

Even there are, even as the scriptures teach, there are eunuchs who were made that way by God,

not physically by men with a knife, but by God himself, and they just never had any

sexual attraction, either way.

Right.

You know, those are eunuchs who

could be, I would

tend to think, if you broaden that category, what it

means is that for the same -sex -attracted man or the same -sex -attracted woman,

repentance will have a variety of...

For some people, God calls, and if God calls you to be married, he'll give you sexual attraction,

sexual desire toward your spouse.

If he doesn't call you to be married, then he won't give you that gift.

When we work with men and women who struggle with same -sex attraction at Harvest, we say

that's something that's not really within your control.

It's certainly something you can pray for.

It's something that you can earnestly desire up

to the Lords on your life.

We're going to a midway break right now, and as those of you who listen to my program

regularly know, this is a longer -than -normal break, because Grace Life Radio

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as I said, enables us to remain on the air longer, because obviously if our advertisers are getting

results, they're going to want to remain as our advertisers, and some might not have the financial

ability to do so, even if they love this show, if they don't get results.

So please do both of those things, write down information provided by our advertisers, and also send in questions to Tim Geiger.

And by the way, Tim, I forwarded you two questions from our listeners

so that you can look them over during the break, and perhaps be further equipped to

respond when we read the questions on the air when we return.

Great.

And so, we're going to be right back after these messages, so do not go

away.

I'm Pastor Billy Limhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas, and I'm thrilled to have joined the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family of sponsors.

We fully subscribe to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of the most vital

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Sovereign Grace PBC of San Angelo purposes to center our worship on the Holy Scriptures and the

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Hello, my name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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I hope to hear from you soon.

God bless you.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

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Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 1 -27 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor, small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans.

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do?

Could I just say, God bless you and walk away?

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The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need.

Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel,

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Or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi,

39443, or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

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Did you know that all believers are priests?

In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a chosen

race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession so that you may

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We are back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio right now and before we return to our interview with Tim

Geiger of Harvest USA on our theme Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human we just have some

upcoming announcements that we want you to know about so that you can attend them and the first is the one that we are

focusing on today that is what I just mentioned, the conference, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference on

Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human which starts tonight and ends tomorrow, March

29th and March 30th in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

The speakers are our guests today, Tim Geiger, Todd Pruitt who was on our program

on March 6th and also Carl Truman who is no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience.

The location is the Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia and for more details go to

AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org click on events and then scroll down to Gender,

Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human the Blue Ridge Bible Conference on Gender,

Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human that's tonight through tomorrow, March 29th and 30th.

Then tomorrow night we have, for those of you closer to Long Island, New York

we have a debate that is taking place at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long

Island, New York pastored by my friend Bruce Bennett.

He, Bruce Bennett, is going to be debating a Roman Catholic apologist named Matthew Luke Broderick

on the theme, Purgatory, Is it Biblical?

That's tomorrow night at 6 .30 at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

For more details you can go to the Word of Truth Church's website which is WOTChurch

.com WOT standing for Word of Truth Church .com WOTChurch .com

or call them at 631 -806 -0614 631 -806

-0614.

That's the Purgatory debate tomorrow night at 6 .30 at the Word of Truth Church Farmingville, Long Island, New York

between Pastor Bruce Bennett and Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick.

Then, coming up in May on Thursday, May 23rd from 11 a .m. to

2 p .m. I am conducting the Spring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon here in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall featuring my dear

friend, who is no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron audience Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and

Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Dr. Costa will be speaking on the theme How the Dead Sea Scrolls Vindicate the

Reliability of the Holy Scriptures and he will be conducting a PowerPoint presentation

on that.

All men in ministry leadership are welcome and it's free of charge and

you could be a pastor, you could be an elder, a deacon you could be the leader in a parachurch organization

absolutely free of charge.

You're going to be leaving that event with hundreds of dollars worth of free books that have been

donated by nearly every single major Christian publisher in the United States and the United Kingdom and that's

between 20 and 30 books.

You'll be leaving there with absolutely free, brand new books that I have selected from these major publishers

who have sent me a hundred copies of each book I selected from them

specifically for men in leadership who are attending this event and of course you'll be getting free

food and everything else there is free.

My late wife Julie, who began these luncheons in the 1990s insisted that there never ever be

anything for sale there or any ulterior motive that this is just a time of rest, relaxation,

fun, fellowship and edification for ministers of the gospel and leaders in

Christian ministry.

So please if you want to attend send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot

com and put in the subject line.

I want to attend the Iron Sherpins Iron Pastors Luncheon or just put Iron Sherpins Iron Pastors Luncheon and

Dr. Costa will be speaking after he leaves Pennsylvania from Friday

the 24th of May through Sunday the 26th of May he will be speaking at various churches on Long Island

one including the New Hyde Park Baptist Church in Western Nassau County, Long Island

and also the Hope Reform Baptist Church in Central Suffolk County, Long Island and there may be

a couple of others added to the speaking itinerary that we are still working on and I will give you more details on

those speaking engagements as they come to me then coming up after that, immediately after that

we have the East Coast Ministers Conference being conducted by the Banner of Truth.

I will be attending that, God willing at the Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

That's May 28th through the 30th.

The theme is I Believe in the Holy Spirit.

Speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn who is a Reformed Baptist missionary in

France Stephen J. Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier

Ministries Michael Morales and Chad Vegas and by the way, Chad Vegas is going to be our guest.

God willing, this Monday April...

I'm sorry, I misspoke it's a week from this Monday, April 8th.

Chad will be on.

In fact, we have, I believe, all of the speakers lined up to be on Iron Sherpa's

Iron Radio before May 28th.

If you would like to register for this event go to BannerofTruth .org.

BannerofTruth .org click on events and then click on East Coast Ministers Conference.

There are other conferences there that are in different parts of the United States and the world

specifically the United Kingdom.

So if you are closer to those areas we do have listeners both on the West Coast of the United States and

in the United Kingdom.

If you prefer going to those events click on those events instead.

But I will be personally going to the East Coast Ministers Conference so I hope to see many of you in the Iron Sherpa's

Iron Radio audience there.

Another conference where I plan to attend I'm already registered is the Foundations Conference a conference sponsored by

SermonAudio .com.

I love this conference and I go as often as I hear about it December 19th and 20th in

the heart of New York City, Manhattan.

And there are some really powerful preachers on the roster at this conference as well.

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson who you heard moments ago advertising the New Covenant Church NYC one

of our sponsors.

He is the founder of One Passion Ministries and has become well known as one of the most powerful preachers

alive today.

Another one who would be in that same category Paul Washer has been added to

the lineup there at the Foundations Conference.

Rev. Jeff Thomas who's preaching.

I so love and look forward to hearing him preach again.

He is a retired pastor from Wales and is one of my favorite preachers.

Armand Tomassian another extraordinary preacher of the Gospel a young man who has

gifts and wisdom far beyond his age and I'm sure he's going to be a household

name amongst Reformed Christians within the next decade.

What a powerful preacher Rev. Armand Tomassian is Richard Caldwell Jr. I have not heard before.

I'm looking forward to hearing him speak for the first time.

And also Andrew Quigley I have never heard before.

I'm looking forward to those speaking engagements that he has at the Foundation Conference.

For more details go to thefoundationsconference .com.

Make sure you put the in there or you'll get an entirely different website

thefoundationsconference .com.

And I would register as quickly as you can because even though the event is not until December

19th it is a small venue only holding about 200 people so they will fill up quickly no doubt.

So thefoundationsconference .com.

Last but not least if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves.

Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com click support then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

We truly rely upon your generosity to remain in existence.

The generosity of our donation.

Those that donate in our audience in addition to those who purchase advertising.

Without those we will not continue to air our program.

We will not be able to.

So please go to ironsharpensironradio .com click support then click click to donate now.

If you prefer snail mail an address will appear on the screen where you can mail checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I thank all of you who have already done that and who regularly do it.

Some of you once or twice a month donate very generously to us and we thank God for you.

If you want to advertise on the program send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail

.com and put advertising in the subject line.

If you one thing I'd like to remind you of please never ever

siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church that you're accustomed to in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Never do that never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home.

Providing for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not obviously a command of God.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands then please spend

as much as you can and spend as frequently as you can on donations to

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio so that we can remain in existence.

If you do not have a church home and you're not prayerfully seeking for one you are living in rebellion against God.

So please rectify that situation.

I have lists of churches that are faithful to the scriptures all over the world.

In fact I just got recently in fact yesterday an email from one of our listeners who is

vacationing in the state of Washington and asked for a biblically sound church near Forks,

Washington and I sent him details and I have regularly gotten people all over the world

churches near them that are biblically faithful that many have visited and some have joined.

But if you could send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church home or something similar in

the subject line.

I will help you find a church and God willing I will.

Now we are back to our conversation with our guest today Tim Geiger on gender sexuality

and what it means to be human.

Tim Geiger is the president of Harvest USA and he is also an elder in the PCA denomination.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your

country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private

matter.

And as you know Tim I forwarded you two of the listener

questions that have come in and I'll start with those before I go to the others.

We have Susan in Setauket Long Island, New York.

And Susan says Hi, several months ago Christianity Today magazine had an article by a woman who had been

a practicing lesbian and had become a Christian.

I wonder if she's referring to Rosaria Butterfield who I've had on this program.

I think I've read that article several times because it was so profound.

What she concluded was this Jesus Christ did an amazing sacrificial loving thing for a lowly sinner

like her.

She felt the least she could do was trust him.

Because she trusted him she believed him and because she believed him and believed in who he

was the savior she knew she had to obey it

was this obedience that led her out of the lifestyle and into a loving marriage with a man and a child.

She said she will always have that predisposition in her

much like an alcoholic might still want to drink but knows that in obedience to God he cannot

and should not.

The same was for her that I think would separate her from Rosaria Butterfield.

I don't think that would be her.

The same was for her.

What struck me as so deep was that it's all about obedience.

Does this sound like something you would agree with Susan in East Satoka, Long Island.

Not to mince words I would say it's about obedience but it's all about

what the Lord is doing.

Unusual at all for someone who struggles with any pattern

attempted sin.

To Susan's

point

it does involve obedience because what that person has to be willing to say in that moment.

Is no.

Because of what Christ has done for me I am not going to try

because I know that in Christ I have something far better.

Obedience is far better

than the identity that I have in my identity.

I could get for myself through engaging in this sin.

To your point.

Maybe.

We talked about the degrees to which

so frequently someone who engages in sin

and finds a sense of community and finds a sense.

Of.

People who struggle with other patterns of sin might not particular

ways in which

temptation.

Because.

It is an

easy way to feel validated and

affirmed.

I think.

Returning to

our

vomit is pretty standard.

And.

We should actively fight against it as we walk in repentance.

What I would say is this.

In the church accountability is just where

one person goes to another and says.

But I think.

From scripture accountability is meant to be linked to discipleship.

And it's meant.

To be linked to living transparently and humbly within the body

other people will help you realize how you're prone.

To sin.

In the first place and will actually get in the way.

Of you.

Falling into temptation and into sin to begin with

engage in this notion

of fight against that sin that

they can and will be

happy to send them a PDF.

One thing that concerned me about.

Susan's.

Email.

I don't know if she was.

Correctly.

Quoting this woman whoever this woman is if she was accurately quoting the woman I don't believe at all it

was Rosaria Butterfield.

But as I.

Initially thought was the possibility when I first started reading the question but she said about this

woman she said she will always have that predisposition in her much

like an alcoholic might still want to drink.

I am I'm very opposed to that mindset because once again to me it is a

denial of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit not that

as we were saying earlier.

That a.

Person who is involved in homosexual activity will automatically or even definitely become

heterosexually attracted after they're regenerate.

They may be totally neutral on it and so on but to give up and wave the white flag like that.

And say.

I will always be.

In a.

Predisposition to have homosexual attraction.

That to me is I think problematic and dangerous.

Actually I'm just to let you know something about myself.

I am someone who was seriously involved in a high level of

drunkenness.

I was sober.

I was sober for 18 years when I came to Christ.

And then.

After that 18 year period of sobriety I fell back into it in a big way perhaps even

perhaps even in a more dangerous and scandalous way than I

did before I was saved.

I guess it would have been more scandalous because I was a professing Christian but one of the things that I

object to

is the notion that I have to constantly address myself.

As an.

Alcoholic.

I do not believe that I do not put myself.

Into the.

Temptation.

Of.

Backsliding by by consuming.

Alcohol.

With my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ who can moderately and responsibly drink alcohol I never

will.

I will.

Never alcohol.

Again.

Believe.

That I will will.

Again.

I will.

That's L -I -Y -F -C dot org.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entirety of the program has been and will continue to be for

the next 15 minutes or so, Tim Geiger, president of Harvest USA.

We have been discussing gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, which is also the theme of the

upcoming conference.

When I say upcoming, I mean really quickly because it's starting in just about two hours or

so tonight, continuing through tomorrow.

That is gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference

at Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia, tonight and tomorrow, March 29th

and the 30th, featuring our guests Tim Geiger, Todd Pruitt, and Carl Truman.

For more details, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org.

Click on events and scroll down to gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human.

Obviously, this would be primarily for those living close to Harrisonburg, Virginia, since the

event starts tonight.

Tim, we have a brief follow -up statement from the

anonymous listener who just wrote in before our last break.

The anonymous listener says, I went to the elders and they said it was my fault.

This is the physical and emotional abuse from her ex -husband.

I went to the women and their husbands took them away from me and I was left alone with absolutely no

help in my church.

That is not the way it goes out

to that woman.

And I would say that

to forgive,

you could go,

would be to reach out to either another church.

We view

ourselves

for

training

men.

Thank you, anonymous.

And we do have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, earlier

on in the very beginning of the program, I believe I heard your guest use the phrase gay

to describe people involved in homosexual desire or activity.

I personally do not approve of that kind of language because I think it is a candy

coating of a horrific sin.

It, to me, would be like calling a drunkard a wine connoisseur.

Can your guest reply to this?

I don't mean to be insulting, but I think that it can be serious to give soft,

likable words to things that are an abomination to God.

Hopefully your listener believes that

someone who is

dealing with same -sex

and seeing the damage that

that's caused doesn't intend to make light of it at all.

It's simply the term that is used

by people in the church

that is

not meant to

alleviate any of the weightiness.

But didn't you, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you said that you don't approve of using the term gay Christian

because it's a sign...

Oh yeah, I don't believe it is appropriate for a Christian to call themselves a gay Christian.

You had Rosaria Butterfield on your program previously.

What is quite helpful is that you can't use an

adjective to model the meaning of the noun.

And so if you call yourself a gay Christian, what you're saying is there's a part of my life which is

off limits.

A life that God will never change.

Right, and I don't know if our guest, not our guest, our listener was specifically

referring to the phrase gay Christian.

He just said gay because there are people who use that term to describe even those that

are outside of professed Christendom who are enemies openly of

Christianity who use that term as well, gay.

And there is disagreement amongst Christians whether it should ever be used.

I can agree with that to an extent but I've also come to realize that the term almost

exclusively in our day and age means something connected to homosexuality.

It no longer means happy.

I know that Dean Martin sang about a gay tarantella and that's a more and there are other things from

the past where people use that term just to mean happy and

the life of the party and all that kind of thing.

But today, people are typically not going to use the word gay when writing modern

songs or literature that does not involve

a connection to homosexuality.

It's almost been, it's been taken over if you will.

Well, it has and it's how Satan

manipulated culture is

otherwise.

So, you know, the entire appropriation of the race is a symbol of

what is meant to

gay life and gay community.

The term queer which 40 years ago meant

strange or unusual applied to people in the LGBT life.

Right, not so long ago it was considered offensive by them but now they use it for their own people group if

you want or their own sin I should say.

I should not call it a people group.

For their own sin, they are using that themselves as a badge of honor.

That's right, that's right.

You know, and that's quite honestly one of the battles that

we're not entering but the culture,

the nomenclature that

we used 10 years ago, if you're engaged

with in conversations today in the culture, they're speaking a different language.

You know, it's not always right to do this but

it's necessary for them to use

the term.

I for one try not to use it as often as I can and as often as I can remember.

I'll usually say something like those involved in same -sex attraction thought or deed or

something like that.

I know it takes longer to say that.

Yep.

But I just try to avoid giving any kind of sound of approval for

it or softening of it.

Thank you Arnie.

We don't have time for any other listeners.

So I'd like Tim to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners today over the next two minutes.

Chris, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be a part of your program and part

of the hope that they would hear is that

there are people, a lot of

those folks,

secretly because 40 years ago they don't want the

people around them to know because their

sin became

that the Lord would bring

your churches out into the open and pray that

there would be safe people in your churches and

repentance and pray that the Lord would give them

the grace in order that freedom

is theirs.

The church is being called to stand up.

It's a position.

Sin is sin.

And, you

know, we

cannot

need

to...

Amen.

And don't forget folks, harvestusa .org.

Harvestusa .org is the website for Harvest USA where our guest Tim Geiger is the president.

I want to thank you so much for being a part of our program today Tim and I hope that you return as a guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I hope everybody listening has a safe and blessed and joyful weekend and Lord's Day and I hope you

all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.