Today on the DL: We Get Robbed! And More Review of Patterson

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Mail Theft, Loss, and Reflections on Justice

Hey, good morning, welcome. Oho I'm bleeding from the ears as as The volume blows me right out of the saddle and I cannot hear anything anymore because I am now deaf. Trying to find he who runs things on the other side of things.

Oh, there he is. I've been trying but they did that been there. I can't can't chat to him and say I've been yelling and screaming going. But anyway, hey we do this live folks and I you know, I don't ask me why it was it was you know.

It is thousand things, but hey, it's been a weird morning. Because we just we just had all of our mail stolen. I Wasn't here, but I I am informed that a lady And I use that term very advisedly at the moment pulls up in front of the front of our location here, which is not overly uber secret and Gets out walks up the front takes all our mail walks back to her car and We know that this was completely purposeful on her part because when someone went running out to say, excuse me, excuse me.

She jumps in her car and takes off and guess what? She has no license plates on her car. Yes, indeedy. So it's been that's just you know getting ripped off just. Man, I'll tell you it It's always felt horrible.

I remember the I remember the day I walked out of Of class years ago. From uh, what was that Latin or logic? I forget which one I think it was Latin and My truck was gone just and there was a little glass on the on the ground.

But other than that all gone and the thing that bugs me is It's not like you know, we've already taken care of the you know. The stuff of the bank and things like that, you know the outgoing checks and things like that.

But there were packages for people not too many. You know, it wasn't a huge loss. We're not going. Hey, we need we need immediate funding right now, you know, I mean, you know We lost something there.

We have to replace those orders. So, you know, that's that's relevant and it's it takes time and you know that that of that. But what really bugs me is those CDs those DVDs are sitting in One of the trash dumpsters in one of the alleys.

Here in our neighborhood, you know pry over across 43rd Avenue someplace like that. She probably weapon over there pulled into a you know an alley and went through the mail and pulled the checks out and dumped all that stuff in the trash can and That's what's to this day.

I don't know how about 16 years later now. No, I was yeah 16 years later. That's what bugs me most about losing my truck. They found it like 12 hours there. There wasn't much of it left it had been parted out everything was gone, but What bugged me the most?

Yeah, I had changed the change thing. Yeah, very idea of all those people getting a dime from me just bugs me at no end. But the thing that really really really angered me was I had behind my seat a bag of books specifically Bibles which included a Leather bound Greek Septuagint a leather bound Hebrew text and a brand new Leather bound Nestle all in Texas one little 26 editions real small ones, you know, and it had blue page edges and this wonderful I had a guy make it Black soft leather that has the how do I describe it?

You know how sometimes the leather will fold over sort of so it sort of covers the pages and sort of it wasn't a zipper type thing, but it would sort of sort of fold over and It was it was just wonderful and I knew as soon as that truck was stolen as soon as I started thinking about it.

That those Bibles and especially that brand new Greek New Testament with the beautiful leather was sitting in a dumpster and would very soon be in the Phoenix Landfill and that's where it is this day.

Of course, it's gone by now. It's been you know, it's a truly returned to dust shall we say? But that was that was just what absolutely, you know drove me nuts. Was was the idea, you know, what are these?

What what is it like to be a person like that? You know, I I just You have no respect for anyone else. It's just you you you. Just well, you know at the times like this I go well, you know what? That's that's why justice will be done and It may not be done in this life.

And that's something that's difficult to to accept and to handle but sometimes people get away with things in this life, but they only get away with them in this life and You know. So anyhow, and I've been we had somebody break into our house many years ago I was teaching in Grand Canyon and I the scary thing is there I think it was somebody that was involved with the school because they knew what I'd be gone and They they stole some jewelry and they discovered all my class rings are made of steel.

I have exactly one class ring is made of gold is from high school and they didn't some reason didn't get I think I was Wearing it that day, but they found my college ring in The parking lot of the college I was teaching at.

Someone had run it over. The try figure that one out. The only gold ring they got was the nice gold ring that my dear wife bought me when we were had only been dating for About two months and I was one of the only gold rings I had and that one of course was never Never seen again and again, you know.

People think they get away with it. They think no one's watching. But you know what? Those the people who they hear a door slam and they jump I jump too, but it's for other reasons. They have that conscience that conscience is still there because they know.

Someone was watching and the sad thing is According to our expert witness who observed all this there was a young kid in the car with this woman watching this. What kind of a life is that kid gonna have?

Watching mom. If it's mom, I'd say he's probably already having yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Would you say 1213 maybe 12 or 13? Yeah, no wonderful. Yeah, something tells me he wears his pants halfway down his drawers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah and his hat on crooked. Yeah, and mom mom wanted mom wanted some money for who knows what and She didn't get it. Thankfully but my goodness, what a What what an experience to be reminded once again of the depravity of ma 'am.

Well, anyways, I am gonna be playing some sound clips today and the phone lines are open at eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one. I just posted the information on the Debate June 9th on Long Island.

We cannot go running past the upcoming debates if you haven't looked at the calendar page you need to I will be A Shamgar you're a little bit taller than that. I will be in st. Louis the first Was the 7th of 9th, I think of March somewhere around there.

Then right after that heading for England and Then in April April 22nd I Will be doing a debate in In Oklahoma City against dr. Robert Wilkin on the subject of regeneration and his anti Lordship perspective.

I think most people know that the quote-unquote Lordship salvation controversy Whatever you wish to call that that tends to be the terminology used amongst dispensationalists. But the controversy really it's never it could not possibly be an issue Amongst reformed theologians because of the fact that The the reality is that The view of faith that you have if you believe faith is a is a divine gift if you believe that faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the newly redeemed individual who's been Regenerated by the Spirit of God.

In other words if you see salvation as the work of God Then you can't hold to these these odd Dispensational anti Lordship positions that are associated with the names of Charles Ryrie and Zane Hodges and now Robert Wilkin who's basically picking up the the mantle from Hodges who's very very very elderly and so We're going to be debating the issue of regeneration.

Obviously the issue of what happens in regeneration and repentance and faith these are things about April 22nd Oklahoma City informations on the website and then right after that May it's gonna It is I'm gonna be sitting on however, we're traveling in Italy, which I was soon be by train, whatever it might be I'm gonna be Not getting to see quite as many of the sites because I'm gonna be studying.

I know I wasn't I don't not sure if you if he had either I I wasn't. As soon as I said, I went well, I'm not sure about that. But I don't know if it's a not just alive or not, but As soon as I said, I said man, I remember hearing something about that.

But I don't like to proclaim people dead until I know that. Someone someone like to Google that for me. In fact, I'm not sure if you want to Google it. I wish there was a competitor. Maybe there is a competitor because I was reading and I'm gonna wax political here for a moment.

But I think you'll see what I mean. I was reading an article yesterday that said that the employees of Google gave like a quarter million dollars to political campaigns this past cycle and 98 of it went to Democrats.

Now the problem with that is when any group does 98 one direction. There's a little bit of a bias there full uneven and I've noticed that in the Google News thing. Which I do look at in the mornings, man.

They quote some really goofy stuff. You know, it's always got the left spin and all the rest that nuttiness in it. So anyway Someone might want to find out whether Zane Hodges is still kicking or not because he probably would appreciate That you know, the reports of his death have been premature and all that kind of thing.

Anyway, that's going on to my second then we're going to Italy. And I'm gonna be reading all the time man. I've got so much so much to be doing. I don't know that I'm gonna be able to be sightseeing and be sitting there passing these wonderful ancient ruins with a With my with my nose and a book or something.

But then June 9th will be the debate against Bill Rutland on Long Island. I'm being told that all of the Catholic apologists All these the the Internet Catholic apologists are going to be showing up. I've been told that Quite a group of them if I start going down the list of names many of you would know them are going to be showing Up for the debate.

So if you ever want to meet all of them now, what's the time to? Now is the time to to get ready to go to Long Island to the Huntington townhouse there for the debate on The issue of whether a non-christian can enter into heaven that wonderful passage so many Roman Catholics love in the Catholic catechism about Muslims worshiping the same God and doing wonderful fun stuff like that and That'll be definitely an interesting way of highlighting the differences shall we say between.

Yeah. No, I don't see Bob's the Janice working bills, but I Would see him working bills book table to try to get people to leave those book table, but I wouldn't see him staying behind it. No, don't think don't think that'll work and The phoenix will be you know running around outside.

Thank You Marie as in Hodges is still alive and speaking for that matter Along with mr. X. Yes, Bob's the Janice and mr. X will be making a brief appearance and But some of you going mr. X why you haven't listened to all the archives yet have you there were some Interesting things that happened back then but anyway That's coming up the ninth and then of course you know over the summer The cruise to Alaska the debate with John Dominic Crossan.

All of that stuff, which we'll be talking much more about please please please. As I said last week, I'm gonna keep reminding you don't Put it off don't be the procrastinator talk to your wife if you keep going forget to do that.

Use a magic marker right on your hand do something but remember to talk with her because she's gonna love it and you're gonna love it and you just can't put it off forever because we have limited room for the debate and Of course the cruise is just going to be just wonderful and awesome and things like that.

The Why Question Behind Election and Divine Sovereignty

All right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and as you may know Over the the past number of months really Sort very very hit and miss. I don't know why it is sometimes I can hit a hit an audio file and just straight on through it and not a whole lot of interruptions and things like that, but for some reason trying to work through the Presentation that Paige Patterson made at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary in the chapel Has just taken forever part of it's because I've talked about a lot of other individuals along the way.

It's not which I probably shouldn't have given their odd responses. Isn't it odd how people respond to you take what they themselves say and you play sometimes all of it, you know, just straight through and You respond and you respond biblically and and There was the the type of reaction you get is incredible.

We've seen the Dave hunt meltdown. We've we've seen the the Norman Geisler. I can't believe I actually wrote that appendix because I really didn't because my students at at my school actually wrote it.

Thing in this in the second edition of chosen but free we've Seen that guy that I won't mention up in Canada because he just lives for that it seems to be the only thing he does and as you see on the blog right now, I total Amazement at the kind of response I've gotten from the other person that I'm responding to.

The blog right now about unconditional election Hebrew isms and everything else and I just wonder Why won't someone just respond with well. Actually, here's further substantiation of my position and providing sound exegetical response.

That would be seemingly the way to do it. But anyway We started playing we were in the second of three mp3s. That means this this is the second chapel session regarding the presentation of Paige Patterson you may recall last time I read from Robert Raymond's the systematic theology on the subject of compatibilism theodicy, etc, etc and We saw that once again Dr. Patterson just dismissed those things Straight off the top without any meaningful critique of it any meaningful critique and what his assertions are and so we will press on with his with his presentation and.

Let's hope everything works right when I press this button. Oh my goodness with all of this running through our heads and minds and hearts and 2 ,000 years of effort of Christians to resolve it that often Resulted in more disunity in the body of Christ.

What on earth are we to say? How do we resolve the problem? I'd like to suggest to you this morning that maybe We've been asking the wrong question all along. Maybe the difficulty we have with all of this is because we've been asking The what question or the how question instead of asking the why? question maybe we've been trying to somehow get our arms around the mind of God and Explain how all of this is compatible when we should have been asking the different question altogether.

Maybe we should have been saying Lord. Why did you put a doctrine like that in the Bible anyway? I mean stop and think about it for a moment. Even if the doctrine of election means everything our Calvinistic brethren say that it means Why would there be any real necessity of placing it in the Bible after all it's all settled in eternity past.

And later on when we can understand it Maybe God can explain it to us, but here below with our physical and mental Limitations we will never adequately comprehend it so why on earth even put it in the book anyway.

And that is a legitimate question. Why are these doctrines in the Bible now when we ask that question? I believe that we will begin to discover some remarkable answers yesterday. We read from Romans chapter 8 and I want to take you once again to Paul's solution to the problem.

Which is to answer the why? question rather than the how question instead of Deciding how it all works which nobody has done for 2 ,000 years to anybody else's satisfaction. Instead let's ask why the doctrine is there when we ask that question I believe we will begin to unravel some marvelous truth first of all notice in Romans 8 verses 30 and verses 29 and 30 for whom he foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

That he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he predestined these he also called and whom he called. These he also justified and whom he justified these he also glorified. Now in any summary reading of that passage Who stands out as important?

It's pretty obviously a true isn't it that pronoun he? representing our God our God is the one who has done the whole thing and so the first great answer to the question Why is the doctrine of election in the Bible to begin with is that as long as the doctrine of?

Election is in God's Holy Word. It puts salvation totally in the hands of God and makes it forever a matter of his great.

And of course everyone to this point can simply say amen and amen and If there was simply a willingness to hear the explanations that have been offered with clarity with force with with charity by Reformed writers in dialogue over the Misapprehensions that the good doctor has about compatibilism the misapprehensions that he has a fatalism.

There would be no reason why what was just said would not lead you Directly to the position that I hold and that I espouse Very very clear. There is no question God's grace God's power but what must then be the Continued Result of this what what what does it mean to say?

It is all of God's grace and all of God's power because I've heard many people say that I Have heard many people. Oh, it's all of God's grace. It's all of God's power except I'd like to suggest that if you do not then continue on and Answer the is grace Necessary but insufficient or is grace necessary and sufficient question.

That you're leaving the key issue Unresolved and you're not helping anybody. You're all you're doing if you if you give this kind of thing, it's all of grace. Let's just let all these things, you know, let's not ask the the how.

Let's just be happy with the why well, I think the why the how and the why go together don't think the the the why question. You know, you know what I don't think that Calvinism is actually trying to answer the how question in the sense of trying to provide some sort of exhaustive Description of the mechanism by which God for example Works his will within the heart of man and the compatibilism and all the rest that didn't that.

The the first question we ask is the why the why is the glorification of God and his grace? Is that is that not the case? I? Think it is so we we get but up to this point. What do we say? Amen?

Exactly true. Indeed. May I suggest to you that this is the continental divide of all Human thinking over there. On one side you have the Buddha over there with him is the Muslim. Over there with both of them is the Hindu.

Oh, we understand what you're doing. You're putting all the religions of world over on one side of the continental divide and Christianity over. Oh, no friend over there with that Muslim and with that Hindu and with that Buddhist.

Most of the folks who claim to be Christians are over there, too. You're one of those narrow-minded old Baptist, aren't you? You're going to put them all over there and just put the Baptist over here.

No, I wish I could do that but unfortunately a vast number of lost Baptists are right over there with the Hindu and the Buddhists and all the others. Because you see about 98 of our world's population is Unauthorably convinced that there is something they can do to make themselves acceptable to a holy God.

They have very different paths down which they would go and different holy books that inform them. But on this one issue they agree 100 Salvation is bound up in something. I do to make myself acceptable to God.

And of course the reformed person would it would again say amen and then would say and if you then Make a libertarian act of free will called faith the deciding issue are you really escaping from what you properly recognize as being a violation of the gospel.

Now, of course we've just recently I did a little article about hyper-Calvinists on my blog and They will then take that and say see I Mean there is a hyper-Calvinist on a on a email list and the email list died or I got kicked off and I'm not sure which but There's a hyper-Calvinist on that list and he was saying I'm not a believer.

I'm not a Christian and I can guarantee you he would say page Patterson's not a Christian why? Because we do not have the exact same Understanding and formulation that he has and his is what defines it.

He is his understanding. The perfection of understanding defines what the gospel is. Every Christian who is a Christian has a perfect understanding of limited atonement for example. So I mean when you get it all down to it that this guy as I mentioned the blog has to Draw the circle so tightly has to stand on one foot to stay inside it.

He's the only one left. He's the only Christian out there because he becomes the standard instead of Christ becoming the standard. But the point is that They will take this and they'll say see you're pointing out.

You're rightly pointing out an inconsistency. With what was said before I mean he's differentiate himself from our Calvinistic brethren he's putting he doesn't view himself in that way etc etc. And that means he's not a believer, so that's where the disconnect is that's where the problem.

It's that doesn't make him an unbeliever it makes him an inconsistent believer. Oh, well, why don't you apply the same standard to the Roman Catholics because we're talking about something different aren't we?

We're talking about he's he said it's all of grace. Well, you know what I'm still seeing what that means aren't you? Aren't aren't you seeing. That's Grace every day. I learn more about what grace is supposed to mean so if Understanding and having perfect consistency is the standard none of us are saved there.

Anybody who would look at me and say I will say I I'm saved because I know all the things. You're lying. This is all there is to it. So there's the danger in going in the direction here. We see inconsistency when you see inconsistency you point out inconsistency.

Why? Well because we don't want to be a postmodernist well. That's true, but the real reason is you want to honor God is that not the case? How do you honor God by saying well God really can't clearly communicate anything you just or a mumbles to us.

We're not really sure what he said. That's that's the the wonderful God of postmodernism is even though he made us as thinking reasoning Communicating beings he can't communicate to us with much in the way of clarity.

Obviously we can continue we can communicate with more clarity to our children than God can to us which is an odd way of viewing things, but Yeah, as it may if you're not a postmodernist you point these things out because God isn't glorified by muddled thinking He didn't make us to exist that way and so we address it.

Over against that is Biblical Christianity it is totally different from all of that because in biblical Christianity Salvation is by grace through faith alone. It is the grace of God. It is God's plan of Redemption.

It is God's operation of Redemption. It is God's purchase of Redemption. It is God from the beginning to the end. It is not about what we do. It's about what God has done. And as long as the doctrine of election is in the Bible it forever states that salvation is God's doing from beginning to end by His grace alone.

Again quite true.

Right right on the nose. However since it's been a while. Let me remind you that our speaker has already indicated the fact that he does not accept the concept of Particular Redemption and so when we're hearing about Redemption accomplished I'm afraid that when we start pushing what we're going to hear is Redemption Made hypothetically possible, but not actually applied.

That's going to be the problem I think at that particular point, but again outside of that we can just simply go. That's.

Wonderful now. I have already told you that we need to ask the why question rather than the how question. But let me just point out one thing to you where I think. When we get to heaven we may discover the resolution of the how question.

Just for the fun of it. Okay. Look at those verses. I just read one more time. Whom he foreknew then he did predestinate. Whom he predestinated then he also called. Whom he called then he also Justified.

Whom he justified then he also glorified. Speaking of the future salvation of our bodies our glorification. As though it had already taken place because it is so certain now. Let me ask you a question this morning.

How many of you here were glorified before you were justified and.

Foreknowledge, Foreordination, and the Order of Salvation

That's a question. We will answer on the other side of this break. I think it's a question We all know but hey, we'll continue listening to Paige Patterson and responding. We'll be right back.

It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself? Some religious place.

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James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

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Compatibilism, Foreknowledge, and the Freedom of God

Welcome back to the dividing line. We are discussing today. Things we've discussed before. I sort of feel like watching out the front door sing. Anyone's heading for the I think with a front door get a 12-gauge man.

I remember years and years and years ago I live in a hotel in a hotel. We live in an apartment and it was late at night and I was sitting there working on. I remember it was the the like 12-inch amber screen 4 .7.

No, that was no no 4 .77 megahertz 8088 20 megabyte hard drive. And I was tapping away in the darkness and I start hearing somebody banging on the kitchen window and I'm I I look into the kitchen. I see someone outside.

They're banging on the kitchen window. So I was 8 megahertz okay, and I so I have a 12-gauge shotgun and I open the door and the sound of a of a 12-gauge. You know when you when you well here this right here yeah that one right there.

The fact that it didn't get the lady's attention. Then indicated to me we found out later. She was completely fried on methamphetamines. I mean we are talking one of those ladies that has like super strength, you know like takes four cops and she's like five foot one and weighs 85 pounds, you know, I mean and She was hearing voices.

She eventually threw a pot through the neighbor's window and we're talking the panel windows. So very very small little hole and dove through the glass headfirst. That was that was a fun night. Why am I talking about all this criminal activity today?

You'd think that we have a problem with that around here. Well, is there's not too many places these days. We don't but anyhow, we are listening to Paige Patterson's sermons on Calvinism from New Orleans Baptist theological.

Seminary and We will continue with that now. That's what I thought. How many of you were justified before you were called. Well, that's what I thought. You see there is a Sequence of salvific events unfolding here, isn't there in our experience?

Yes.

But the fact they're all put in the past even referring to those who had not lived at the time of the crucifixion Indicates that from God's perspective. There is a certainty on the eternal level that then becomes the ground for the experience in the temporal.

We X we are time bound creatures and so we experience things in a temporal order to place that upon God's purposes and upon God is is where we have a problem and if there is a.

Sequence of salvation events, where does it begin? It begins with the foreknowledge of God whom he foreknew Them he predestined and it's not the only time the Bible says that for in first Peter chapter 1 Peter says elect According to the foreknowledge of God.

Now at this point at this point I.

Would think Maybe I'm you know, maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe I'm off. I don't know. I don't think so though. At this point I would think that at a graduate institution the people sitting in front of him I Mean we I don't know how many people we've got a number of people if things are foreign.

We're a small church. We have a number of people who sit there and they have the Greek text in front of them. Some of you saw that really cool a reader's Greek New Testament that I mentioned on my blog and You see a lot of those you'll see the UBS text or the any 27er.

They're sitting there with their text in front of them and I would think at a seminary that would even be more common, right? In a chapel service seminary, that's gonna be very very common now most of you who have and I Always realize we have new new listeners all the time.

So I sometimes have to go back over things. Please forgive me if you've heard all this before. You know, it's really difficult to discuss the difference between verbs nouns regarding foreknown and foreknowledge while watching people in channel discussing Monty Python and the rabbit the the the death that waits well with nasty big pointy teeth thing.

You know, it's the the contradiction is extremely difficult and it also tells me that no one in there is listening to me. Anyway just I'd mention that in passing and embarrass everybody who's doing that but I Would think you know if you've been listening for a while if you've been reading if you've been keeping up with the discussion for example with Dave Hunt.

You know that there is a difference between the verb to foreknow and the noun for knowledge and You know that when the verb is used with God as The subject God is the one Who is doing the foreknowing.

That each time that's used in the New Testament The object of the for the foreknowing the action of foreknowing is personal. God foreknows persons. Because that foreknowing is personal it is a relational term.

For knowledge is knowing future events and activities and While the two can be related within a particular context. To simply switch between the two without recognizing the difference just making them just just obliterating Any distinction that might exist the text not even recognizing it is not how you do sound exegesis.

And it just strikes me as odd That within the context of Graduate level studies with people sitting there with their Greek texts open that you would go from Romans 8 Which uses the verb God foreknew? Over to first Peter where it uses a noun and not even seem to recognize that that's what you're doing.

And I think the reason that this is so common you see you hear this all the time. Is that so rarely will these individuals allow themselves to enter into meaningful dialogue and discussion about these subjects.

And so they're not challenged on it. And I I would like to think there might have been somebody in that audience afterwards went up to him and say Dr.. Patterson what? Do you notice did you notice that you did this did how do you respond to this?

But that's not normally how it works unfortunately and so once again. We see a common exegetical error.

Will that be addressed. Let's find out. So that for knowledge in some sense of the word precedes election or predestination. Which also precedes calling. Which also precedes justification. Which also precedes clarification.