TiL- Duties/Job Description of a Pastor

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Welcome to the truth in love podcast. We hope you can stick with us tonight. We're going to talk about the duties or job descriptions of a pastor

00:44

Welcome again to the truth in love podcast. We're so thankful that you could join us. Thank you for watching. We really appreciate it

00:51

We appreciate your support and your prayers if we can pray for you. We'd love to be able to do that Sorry for the late start tonight

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Had some setbacks, but that's okay I'm thankful that Andy is with me tonight.

01:04

Andy Cain and tell us the name of your ministry your podcast Well, I probably should have gave you a heads up before we started.

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I'm actually going through a lot of changes So I currently don't have anything out there okay public, but I've been historically had and I probably still use the same name by his grace because it really goes back to The whole origin of So much for me which by I guess you'd call a tagline

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You know everything that we have everything that we are is by the grace of God and I've just over the last year one thing

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I found it's serious We're talking about pastors night because when I was a pastor for two and a half years and I still am

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I just not Currently on staff anywhere, right? I the two and a half years. I had a lot of time to Take on a lot more and so over the past three years that since I've been transitioning and Hopefully in 2023.

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I'll find a new place to land. I realize that when you're working full -time You don't have enough time to do all those things

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So I've been downsizing and retooling and also since I've been helping and doing a lot for the truth love network.

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I'm really I found that with me I have to purposefully and intentionally turn everything off and Give myself time to pray and think things through I know there's probably a lot of people out here that would listen this and say that sounds like me

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Because if I keep trying to trudge along I'll try this and this and this and this before you know it like it's a big jumbled mess so I'm currently really thinking things through and I think

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I Have a lot of ideas swimming in my head of what I want to do So we'll see what happens my goal is to hopefully buy in January to start back up with some stuff nice nice By the way, the comment line is open

02:55

Let us know that you're watching say hello. Ask a question give a critique somebody really stumped me the last time

03:03

Dan and I were alive and I'm still Researching that that question and it's okay to do that.

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We don't have a 13 thing It was a Matthew 13 and Daniel chapter 12 That's tough it's that I mean

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I read it now like I'm not getting into that one because I don't I mean I the older I get I'm getting a lot better at meeting what

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I don't know and I struggle with that one That was it's a really tough one. And and I want to get there.

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I want to keep going after it I want to get there, but it's a tough one and it's one of those that you've got to be careful taking which which thing you take publicly because You You'll start leaning towards certain positions and People will give you a hard time for those positions.

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So you gotta you got to be careful and of course you I want to line up Where the

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Bible is speaking? And not and not smoosh, you know my

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Certain eschatology or my certainness interpretation in on that passage. So well just as an example

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Yeah, I was having a discussion with a guy on Twitter named David Green the other day He kind of put his heart out there and he

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I think he and I disagree But I appreciate the fact that he went in depth and put it out there For the sake of discussion on the atonement and you know, we're not gonna get in that here today

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But just as an example, I struggle with I'm firmly convinced that Jesus cried died just to pay the sins of the elect

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I think Hebrews in its totality is clear at the same time I was telling this gentleman

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I have to reconcile that with the fact there are many many verses that speak of Christ dying for the whole world and since the whole

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World and you know, you have to look at them individually in their context, but right there is some

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Tension in my mind and why I have to be kind of careful not to be overly dogmatic But at the same time someone were to ask me

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I'd say well, here's where I fall at the moment But I think maturity calls for us to be open to the fact that you know, we could be wrong

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Yeah, yeah on some things, you know, of course some things are very clear Well, and I've seen people post this recently.

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It may have been It may have been Brandon Scott He posted something about being being teachable

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And being humble. I can't remember exactly what he posted. Yeah, but um Yeah, I want to I want to stay right there where I'm where I remain teachable and and have the mindset where you know

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I don't know everything I mean I've had to change my theology quite a few times to match scripture and not what

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I Thought it was or what I grew up believing So yeah I want to actually right there like the way you put that because when you look at the subject we're dealing with the night

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It's very difficult for people to give up what they've always known or what they've always done

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Right when they start realizing that scripture says something completely different. That's right.

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That's right. Let me start with this Here's a funny question for you. So when when does your family?

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Begin to list begin to listen to Christmas music. Oh, we already have Yeah, you have a certain

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Line that you draw never before this line never before this date. I don't think we have anything hard and hard in the sand

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Because I spent you know, roughly 13 14 years working at food line and good lord

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They started playing Christmas music so early. I mean a food line employee is done with Christmas by December 2nd.

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Gotcha Yeah, we are we're already listening to it we love it man We we're all about Christmas the day for Thanksgiving all the decorations were up.

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We're ready to roll Yeah, we our weekend is veterans Veterans Day weekend. Okay, would would we?

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Would we be able to catch you not to embarrass you but we would we be able to catch you Listening to Christmas music when you're in the vehicle by yourself.

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I Listen to Christmas music on the way home from church tonight in the vehicle by myself Yeah, I listen to it too as well

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And then I came inside kind of humming the song that I heard on the radio. So yep.

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Gotcha. Gotcha All right. Well, let's jump into the subject tonight. We want to talk about duties job description of a pastor and this kind of stem from A folks

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Facebook post that I made and a question that somebody posed to me. Well, what is what is the duties of a pastor?

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And I was like, you know We've done videos. I'm sure you've talked about it the qualifications of a pastor and you know

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We go through the qualifications of a pastor whenever our churches are looking for one we go through the qualifications of a deacon every time it's

07:53

Time for elections again However, your church does it, you know in the Baptist setting we do elections every so often

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So we go through the qualifications of deacons for pastors But you know,

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I begin to think about it. We rarely hear Duties and job descriptions and I hope you know why that is.

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Well, go ahead the reason that is is because I largely speak here just for Southern Baptist churches because that's

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The thing I'm most familiar with I can't really speak for Presbyterians or things like that but so, you know, you kind of have to keep that in mind when

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I when I talk but the reason is because The way they do things isn't in line with Scripture So if you start having conversation about what

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Scripture says it's gonna become apparent very quickly that you're not doing it Right, and that you're looking at your pastor incorrectly

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Yeah, and I've heard sermons from the other side and this is something

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I want to say, you know We're off top here, you know, I say a lot Not so much on Facebook a lot on Twitter about this subject about church church health

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Church leadership is is a focus of mine. There's other people that you know probably amongst our truth and love network brethren that may not be in it as much as I am like, you know,

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I know Keith has a focus on it So, you know not everybody's focused on the same things as much as some but for me it's a big focus

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And so it happened the other day where I posted something, you know saying something very direct about this is something that is the way it should be and That people will do these things where they do the immediate assumption of the opposite extreme

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So I'll say something about elders need to be do needing to do such -and -such Yeah, and the immediate assumption is oh,

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I guess us peons and the pews don't do anything and it's just all I'm like Totally not what

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I'll say And so I'm kind of grateful that you when you texted me to do the show is like well

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This is the perfect opportunity for people see my face Yeah, and let me walk through some of these things and then when you hear me out then you're like, ah, he's not that crazy

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Well, I'm glad you said what you said at the very very beginning about our tendency not to line up with scripture because I'm hoping tonight that we can be real and we can talk straight about this subject and Like as the truth and love network says in a loving and encouraging way, that's right.

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Shameless plug And that's why that's the way of course We pull that from scripture as well.

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And just like we said the beginning we want to be we want to remain teachable we may not cover everything and Hopefully, we're not in error, but we will take criticism as well but we want to be straight and we want to be real because you know, we

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I think the way we speak about stuff Andy and myself and other ones we see

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Places where we need correction in our churches and so we have a passion about that because we want to We want to stick with scripture and not not stray as far as so many have from scripture

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Unfortunately, I do think And I would just say there's a percentage of Southern Baptist Church I don't know what that percentage would be but there is definitely and I would say it's probably more than 50 % percentage of Southern Baptist Churches that I I don't honestly

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Please people under I don't mean to sound harsh the way this is gonna sound. Mm -hmm I don't think when it comes to the subject of church leadership that a lot of Southern Baptist Churches want to be biblical

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I don't see it. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That means there isn't a lot of church that do But I you also have to recognize that there is a piece of the pie

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I think they truly do just this is way we want to do it Right and you have to be careful how you

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Handle that if you're in one of those situations and I used to think that My pastor my mentor dr.

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RJ Wagner Wonderful, man. I wish he could be everybody's pastor. He's got He's a lot different than me.

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He's a lot. He's very similar to me in some ways, but his Personality being more reserved and different and more behind -the -scenes type

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Was the perfect for me to play off of and he spent 25 30 years in one church

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Slowly teaching them over time about morality of elders and all these things we're gonna talk about And when he retired they still weren't there

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But he was built and wired to be able to handle the long haul

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Yeah, and I used to think that I wasn't because I'm so matter -of -fact, you know This is what

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God's Word says either you're doing it or you're not. Yeah, the older I get I'm not there yet I still need a lot of work

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I'm starting to become more of a persevering long -haul Understanding that that church may not have studied that subject as much as I have so naturally they wouldn't think about it like I do

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Right. I'm starting to get there and if you're a church out there that You hear some of the things we talk about you're like, we're not doing that or we're not doing this

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You can't walk into your church tomorrow and try to do wholesale changes. Yeah, it will not work. That's right

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You will have an explosion of a powder keg on your hands. Yeah. Yeah, but You need to start talking about it and teaching it and working towards Yeah, getting there if that makes sense.

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That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, it's um It's about tact. It's about Following following the following the

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Lord and and not Going in like a bull in the china shop

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Yeah, because really what we're talking about here is This subject of church leadership is no different than any other subject

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Like I said, we should want to be submitted to Scripture in what it says

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Yeah, and what God is clearly saying we should do and I do believe in the subject church leadership

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I don't believe this to be a gray area or a foggy area. I believe it's really clear.

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Yeah. Yeah, and It may be the case, you know, and I'm not gonna speak, you know, there's not a verse

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I can't pull a verse out but I Can't help but think you know when we stray from Scripture and in doing things according to Scripture We're gonna have issues we're gonna have problems

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But when we stick with Scripture You know, we might we may not be blessed according to how the world

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Judges blessing, but we will be counted as faithful and and God will use our faithfulness

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How he sees fit and and that's our that's our main goal that's our main job is our is our faithfulness to Scripture and how

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God and Christ our King wants us to do things and and not the world and not our visions and I think when we when we look at these things

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We talk about having things on our plate having too much on our plate If if we just do the things as a pastor as an elder that Scripture tells us to do

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We'll have plenty on our plate But what seems to happen is there's so many other things that begin to fill up our plate the things of Scripture begin to slide off and we're

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All we have left on our plate is those other things that are outside of Scripture and we run into so many problems

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I'm sure you've seen this and many other people have seen this Being involved in church leadership being involved in churches for so long

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There's issues that we face as pastors you've got You've got families who want to want and I'm just going to be speak straight and be real

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You've got families in churches who you know, they're they're not very

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They don't have a lot of clout in the world, but they have numbers within the church

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Yeah, and that's their place of power and so they want to rule the church and so for you as a pastor to Keep your job.

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You've got to please that family or on the other end you have you have businessmen and women in the in the world who are

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Leaders in your church or members in your church and they give a lot of money so you've got to please those people and do things their way in order to keep your job and in both of those areas are real struggles for many pastors and And they just outlined by far

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And since I am now over the three -year mark being removed from my first church I'm able to see this far more clearly now my biggest failure in my first two and a half years as a pastor since I had never experienced any of it

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I Did not respond very well to all those types of things you're outlining when it happened to me the first time

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Yeah, I was fortunate to be under Jay Wagner For at least a decade.

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I don't I don't know I first preached no 9 Pastored 2017.

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I probably was under him for more than decade I was under his mentorship to be ordained and trained as a pastor for probably six seven years

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And I was there. He had already been there since 92. So where I'm at the Prime quote -unquote of his pastoral role in this church that was him.

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And so I saw a very healthy overall church and I saw a lot of things being done correctly, so I was not in a place where it was the opposite So I never got exposure to now

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I don't know. There could have been some things going on. I know since You know, he we have different conversations now because I'm in the same role

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He is it maybe he hid some things or maybe there were some things. He just didn't exposed it All I could tell is we're in a church love each other and there was never any problem that seemed like everything was going well maybe

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I was naive or what but Unfortunately, and I'm not gonna get too deep in this because I don't want to come off as talking ill the first place

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I was at or anything like that. I don't I don't want to be like that, but I will say There were many power groups

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Even what we would call church cartels there were It was a lot of issues and since I had never been exposed to that My first reaction and my only reaction was this ain't right.

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We should not be like this, right? never stopping to consider that They're like this for a reason

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And I always said I want to have one church to be there for 50 years and I could have been there for 50 years

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Had I hit the reset button said Andy you got to accept that. This is the way it is

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You got to accept that. It's at least possible that God may have me for here 50 years and it never changes

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That doesn't change the fact that if I get in the pulpit, I'm going through text of Scripture it deals with I can't say

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Confidently and directly What the scripture says? Yeah, and then let the chips where they fall and then trust that God will work in his people over time

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I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah. Now that wasn't Jay's fault It was all me.

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Yeah, and I I'm telling you I was just telling somebody

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Wednesday night at church God it's amazing to me the older I get how God uses suffering to break us and Humble us and the suffering went through at that church.

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I saw as you know at the time Why would God put me here? He knows, you know these gifts and things

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I have would be better suited out You know all those prideful things we say right? Yeah, Santa the sin that I had to deal with and now

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I'm thinking the church of men now I'm not officially on staff or anything, but I've told the pastor I can still function as an elder in this church by having your back

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Being where use where I can and I'm not looking at okay. I see this problem It needs to be fixed

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God may not want me to fix it God and you you nailed it He may just want me to be faithful and what he's called me to do at the time

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Right, and that's something that I've looked at and when you're talking about this families and things that you know it It's a very real thing and it's unfortunate but to me

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Yeah, I think this is sorry that you have cut you off. I think that's where you're going with it That's a symptom.

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The underlying issue is the submission to Scripture. That's right Sorry to go long there, but that was a that's okay

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And he just one more example of the struggles that we have and I think it's going to lead us into our first passage

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Which is first Peter chapter 5 another issue that we have because of our own biblical model of polity church leadership is we have the single pastor system with a plurality of deacons and we set the deacons up as Functioning as elders as rulers

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And so they they want to you know, use their power and you and you have to do things the deacons way

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Instead of having a plurality of elders and a plurality of deacons and the deacons, you know Primary role is to serve and you have elders that rule.

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We put we elevate the deacons to to a Responsibilities that is not given to them in Scripture.

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Then we have problems Which we just have heard The church I pastored in 2008.

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They had 180 in attendance when I got there It was probably 115 by the time I left is probably 95

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For the history of the church. They have 21 active deacons at all times In a church with and now they're running probably 60 and they still have 21 deacons

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It's sad. It breaks my heart. It really does it It's hard not to look at it and laugh because it's it really is a joke

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But these are real people so I have to try to fight against that sin and say, you know This is this is heartbreaking because it's so wrong.

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Yeah, I mean I I know There's churches out there. They have probably

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I Know of one that has over 500 and not just 500 rolls.

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I mean like they actually show up Even though what I'm attending now, I think we have roughly 300 active members probably and I think they have like nine deacons

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I mean, but see you're and the thing I said at night I think I put on Twitter if you have a vote on something

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Whoever's voting is the real authority because if you can't do something without a vote That means whoever's doing the vote has the real authority because ultimately you can't do it without their approval, right?

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and we've completely flipped and And not in every church, you know, I think all this kind of goes without saying we're

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I think people are watching this are gonna know We're not saying this is everywhere but in a large a large amount of churches

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We have flipped what the Bible says to do right because I call it the

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Americanized business form of church You know Think about it a politician has constituents a lot of people act like church members are constituents that you had there to please like Yeah, no, you're not

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There's only one person whose voice actually matters and that's Jesus Christ and any elder and you brought up You know just as some preliminary things here.

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I was watching God, man, I wish I could remember the guy's name. I want to make sure I give him credit. I can't remember it

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I apologize, but I was watching a video today where a guy, you know, they talked about the one pastor deal and he said, you know what about these churches that just don't have more than one not because they're against it because Then he said look

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Some churches are just simply doing the best they can. Yeah, and a pastor named

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Christopher Sheffield who Pastors a reformed Baptist Church south of me in a place called

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Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. You may you ever heard of Rocky Mountain? I've heard of Rocky Mountain Yeah, he's in Rocky near Rocky Mount and I had this conversation with him one day and he really changed my mind on How to address this because I was talking largely about how

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I was thinking terms of the quantity, you know You have to have a plurality, you have to have a plurality. He said Andy you're looking at this the wrong way, man

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He said the biblical commitment is to biblically qualified men to lead

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Mm -hmm, and I pair that with Right Response Ministries Joel Webben, I believe his name is.

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I watched a video with him recently where he was talking about We've dropped the ball on ordination

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We tend to lay hands on men far too quickly. Yeah, that's right we would need to take a lot more serious look at a man before because and the thing people don't understand is what are you ordaining them to not to be under the

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Congregation, that's that's silly Because what you know, you take church voting on things you have in any given congregation mature

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Christians Immature Christians babes in Christ and flat -out goats unsaved people

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God doesn't want goats making decisions in his church. He doesn't want immature

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Christians now It doesn't mean they're horrible people or we shouldn't love them They need to be matured right but immature

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Christians should not be making decisions. He wants his biblically Qualified men to do that.

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So a church that has one single pastor if they're committed to biblically qualified men

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Coming and helping to oversee then If all I have is one available to him if they're out so far in the country, and that's all it's available

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Yeah, then they're doing the best they can that's right. That's right. That's right well and I wanted to touch on this other thing because Peter does so our first question is

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Peter chapter 5 and I want us I Wanted to start there and I want to introduce something to you

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And get your thoughts on this before we really dive into the duties and responsibilities of a pastor

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But in verse 1 of chapter 5 Peter says therefore I exhort the elders among you

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That there's that plurality of elders that we're talking about. That's that's our that's our goal even for you know

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Those people that are unable they know that this is the biblical model and they want to strive towards that when possible

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But the biblical model is I exhort the elders among you as your fellow elder witness of the sufferings of Christ.

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So So Peter is speaking to the the elders of that congregation and so We we've we've talked about it the the single pastor system is not

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Is not the biblical model the plurality of elders is and so we should strive to have a plurality of elders in our churches but I think even and Help me if I'm wrong here

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But I've been thinking about this this this week even those churches that are

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Striving towards they see this in Scripture Yes, this is the biblical model that we should have a plurality of elders.

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They still want to tip their hat to that old model and say even among a plurality of elders

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We still need a one. We still need that one. That's kind of over us all that's the teaching or Preaching elder we need that one

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Do we see that in Scripture and I was looking at? First Timothy, I should have put my finger on it, but I was looking at first Timothy and and maybe this is one of the passages

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First Timothy 5 17. This may be one of the passages that they that they go to and say see that there is

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One or you know one or two that are kind of set apart It says in first Timothy chapter 5 verse 17 the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor then it says especially those who work hard at preaching at teaching and I read that I'm like That's maybe where people go to say

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Yeah, we should set aside one. That is our main preaching elder But when we talk about this and when we when we study this

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We Try to make sure that we're clear all the elders are

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You would be one among equals So, why do we tip our hat to that single pastor system?

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to where we have a We single out one that is the main teaching

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Pastor elder that seems to be yes, we're all equal, but he's the one

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I mean, it seems like we're a little inconsistent there. It seems like the way and even this verse

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Yeah, you could tweak it that way But basically Paul is telling Timothy Those who they're worthy of double honor those who are working hard at preaching and teaching

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All of you should be working at preaching teaching all of you should be working hard But those that are working hard at it

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Not that you're singling singling them out as You know one set aside as the main teaching elder, but there's some of you that may be working hard at teaching and preaching

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They're worthy worthy of double honor, I don't think that this verse is saying that we should single out one

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And I think we should maybe be more consistent with our teaching when we say elders you're one among equals and And then

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Kind of move away from the hat tip to that old system, but we need to have that one What do you think

29:52

Well first I'll kind of follow the same path you went when you start in first Peter 5 where he says so I exhort elders among you one of things

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Because words to interpret scripture normally plainly Based on you know authors intent all these different things.

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So when you start looking at Subject in scripture where you're having to go to more than one place

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You tend to take and this is the beauty and the harmony of scripture. You don't see contradiction you see and specifically here this is uh you know in These epistles where you get things that that Paul has written you see a lot of his consistent vocabulary and things like that.

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So What we see is that there is an assumption in scripture that you have a plurality of elders among you

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Right, you don't necessarily see and I could be wrong and I'm 99 % confident here

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There's nothing in scripture that specifically commands that you have more than one elder in your church

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But what we see is that the assumption is that you'll have a plurality of leadership and we find the reasons for this

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Within the greater all in taking consideration all that has to be said about the subject

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And we also learn why it's not good to have just one pastor by taking in consideration all that has to be said about the subject so since and those that want to Make the argument for congregational led or whatever unfortunately for them

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Since that's not what it's just what I believe is that's not what scripture teaches Why are we going to ensure that someone is qualified before or dating them

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It's because of the authority that scripture is telling them to exercise. That's right.

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That's right. And so one things I always tell people And John MacArthur handles this.

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Well, there's a very good video online that or he is asked, you know How much of authority a pastor has or whatever and he very plainly says none and it seems contradictory, but it's actually not

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The pastor himself. I myself have zero authority churches only one authority in church is

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Jesus Christ That's right. He mediates his authority through his word Yeah As an elder if I am qualified it is part of my personal submission to scripture into Christ To exercise oversight over whatever local body

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I've been given charge of because Christ has called me I've shown myself to be qualified and Therefore Christ says since I'm in heaven

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I want you to be my under shepherd and exercise authority over this particular

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Congregation because I'm not there to do it myself, right? So it's part of the elders submission to scripture their obedience to scripture to X's and first we'll look at this

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We'll get through more of first Peter 5 where it talks about how the elders supposed to exercise that oversight

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That's right. But the assumption is the plurality and why well Some very practical reasons since Christ wants his elders to have the oversight in the charge of the church

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The temptation for any one man is pride To be a tyrant, right and we're not gonna get into it because I have a feeling it probably trigger me

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But the fundamentalist Baptist movement Not all of them.

33:24

You can't paint the brush completely broad But my experience the vast majority of them are narcissists tyrants rule with an iron fist they go beyond Simply Christ saying

33:35

I want you to oversee this local body to start saying in your personal life. I'm in charge

33:41

I mean for crying out loud Linda Murphy the daughter of Jack Hiles has a TED talk where she specifically talks about how his church members and in particularly

33:52

His deacons wouldn't take their family vacation unless Jack Hiles approved here's one pastor over a 10 ,000 person church and he had brainwashing capabilities over all of them that we you know and people sometimes want to act like somehow

34:09

I'm saying that's the model because I I I speak so directly against congregationally led

34:17

Forms of government. It doesn't mean the opposite extreme is true in my view I I rightfully recognize

34:23

There are disqualified men carrying the pastor of title. Yeah, there are tyrants narcissists self -centered idiots in Carrying the title of pastor and they need to be removed from that office

34:39

But one of the things that's great about the plurality is if you have a plurality and all those men are qualified You could have that accountability there.

34:51

Yeah, I saw this in practice very well when I was in Emporia, Virginia We had a pastoral association group and Four or five of us men would you know that we're getting together?

35:02

It got to where I was, you know since I was a single pastor and that's the thing I would make the argument for a truly or Biblically qualified man, even if he's in a church where he's the only pastor is going to naturally desire accountability from other pastors, right?

35:17

So even if you're the only pastor in your church as I was You're gonna try to go find another pastor in your community and say look

35:23

I want to develop a relationship with you I want you to hold me accountable because the tendency is

35:31

If you're by yourself To and God does not intend for one man to have that kind of power.

35:37

I mean you look for all the other all the Old Testament Scripture throughout New Testament scripture

35:43

Shared leadership is the model right shared leadership is the goal. Well, let's talk just for a second here very practically why that's important Okay Every biblically qualified elder is required to be morally qualified.

35:57

They're required to be able to teach But they're not all required to have every spiritual gift possible

36:03

So take let's say you have five elders in a church one may be in this

36:08

I'm getting to the part Where you're the first Timothy five let the elders who rule well

36:13

Be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching All elders are required to be able to teach but not all elders will equally teach as well

36:25

Thank you. Take a very practical understanding of this. I'm a preacher I could probably name for you five off the top of my head.

36:33

I think preach far better than I do far better Now does that mean

36:39

I'm a bad preacher no but it means There are distinctions there.

36:45

There may be an elder among you. That is very encouraging or is Tech savvy there may be another one that's very good at hospital visits or the shepherding aspect

36:56

You need that blend because it will harmonize together And you'll get more accomplished than you would if you had to rely on just that one man

37:07

Yeah The point for me bringing that up is because we're gonna be talking about the responsibilities and duties of a pastor and so if if you as an elder are one among equals then all these duties and responsibilities are

37:23

Universally to go to all the elders and all the plurality of elders every single one.

37:29

Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't touch on that part, but you're right Alexander Strzok If you go to another shameless plug here truthinlovenetwork .com

37:38

on the laborers resource guide under the church leadership Toggle button there.

37:44

There's some books. I linked there by Alexander Strzok about biblical eldership about deacons the way

37:51

Alexander puts it is that you are first among equals if You're in a church to say let's say they have five elders and one of them may be doing it from a vocational standpoint so, you know, you may have one and You ask me one day

38:10

I may come down against this ask me the other day I'm like for it whatever I think you have to each church has to make their own determination

38:17

I don't see anything in Scripture would say would be wrong if One of them does it from the vocational standpoint that you would compensate them

38:25

They would spend a bulk of their time during the week available at the church Whereas maybe the other four elders have full -time jobs you could have a lot of different scenarios that may require you to have one that's maybe

38:41

For lack of better return maybe at the forefront but in terms of the biblical Understanding he's no more qualified no more important No more in charge than the other four in that five elder scenario, he's just simply a

38:58

First among equals or how'd you put it? What am I? Yeah, and and I totally agree with you that that each one are going to have

39:07

Each of us individually and each elder is gonna have their own gifts that God has given them but the reason that I kind of went the direction that I went is because That is the one shared qualification, you know

39:19

Of course, we've talked about qualifications before with with elders and deacons and the the bulk 99 % of the the qualifications are character qualifications but the one qualification that's different from elders and deacons that all elders should have like you rightly quoted was the

39:38

App to teach your ability to teach and preach and so since all of them should have that in common

39:44

That's kind of why I went in that direction That I was I made the comment that I feel like we were we still want to hang on to that single pastor system

39:54

Give it a hat tip and and keep that one guy front and center For some reason we want to hang on to that when when

40:03

I think all these duties responsibilities Go universally to all the elders and especially since that that one ability that one gifting

40:13

Is the qualification that all elders are supposed to be able to meet You know in churches

40:21

I could name some you know, a youth pastor is seen as a lesser pastor and you know you know,

40:32

I I don't do so much on Facebook anymore just because I I Don't know you just what we're doing right here so much better You got the face -to -face people that watch this can see our face

40:44

They can see us in our faces struggle with some of this because we want to be correct

40:49

But we also do have what we think and we want to say that but I'd said one time, you know

40:55

Facebook There's no such thing as youth pastors and man. I'm telling you I Got it good that day and I waited for some of the comments to come in and then

41:06

I said You know, of course it was straw man stuff But I said look I didn't say there are elders that would be focused on the youth

41:15

I Said there's no quote -unquote youth pastors because why in the Southern Baptist Church youth pastors are seen as lesser pastors

41:22

Not they're not the real pastor. I mean, I'm it's sad man Some of the job descriptions it'll even say the youth of pastor reports to the senior pastor.

41:31

I'm like that's not biblical If they're a pastor, even if you're in and that's an example how a multitude of elders they may have different focuses

41:41

I'm not equipped now. I'm supposed to be able to teach so if I were to ask go to go teach the youth one night,

41:47

I would go do it, but as a Focused ministry, I'm not very gifted with dealing with youth.

41:55

Whereas someone else may be right, but that elder is Exactly an elder as I am

42:00

So if that elder wanted to come in on conversations about how the whole church would need to be overseen

42:06

They'd be just as qualified, right? And so we need to be careful and that speaks to what you were getting at you know, you got these churches where they have the the teaching elder this the elder like Like come on y 'all, let's just I mean let's just stop that's right.

42:22

That's right. Well, we got about 20 or so minutes So I I do want to get through those duties and responsibilities

42:27

So let's look at verse 2 shepherd the flock of God among you exercising oversight not under compulsion

42:33

But voluntarily according to the will of God and not for sordid gain But with eagerness nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge

42:42

But proving to be examples to the flock so there there's our first duty responsibility is to to shepherd the flock and and we will

42:55

I guess that's a That's a that's a word that we need to define and I think we can define that through through other passages

43:02

But we want to shepherd the flock and we want to Be an example

43:10

Be an example to the flock and of course that's going to come from Your your qualification

43:18

Qualification as we said earlier is majority character You're you're example in Christ and so that's why you have been ordained and called to be an elder is because you are already example in Christ and so that you are to continue that role of example in Christ to your flock

43:37

While you're in church While you're behind the pulpit Monday through Friday Saturday and Sunday That's that is your role and and I would like for us, you know as as we're looking at scripture and We're being real talking straight

43:57

If we could just set aside all all those other duties that we lay on ourselves

44:04

Pleat pleasing this family pleasing this power person in our church

44:11

Thinking that we need to come up with a vision We need to come up with this program come up with this strategy

44:17

Just set all those things aside and let's just look and see what scripture has to say are our

44:23

Duties and responsibilities if we focus on those things, I think we'll be heading

44:30

We will be example in Christ You nailed it. I mean the reason so many people struggle

44:39

The reason so many churches that I've encountered struggle with the idea of being overseen by elders

44:47

Let's just say it plainly. That means the congregations not in charge. That means the deacons aren't in charge means the elders are in charge so the twofold

44:59

Reason why that's a struggle for people number one. Well, if you're currently congregationally led It's hard for people to give up authority people like to think they're in charge they like to think they have a say why

45:11

We live in America the whole basis of our government or at least the way it should be based is that it's representative

45:19

Form of government where you have constituents that you have to keep them happy and keep them pleased I'm sorry,

45:26

I Promise I don't mean to sound harsh here. That's not biblical. It's not it found in Scripture We're church is not there to please you.

45:36

It's there to please God the second part of that is the reason people have trouble wrapping their heads around this this

45:44

Change that they would need to make to go to this is because not so much about the shepherding aspect

45:49

A lot of people have no problem saying yes, an elder is an overseer in terms of our spiritual care

45:56

Mm -hmm maturing us teaching us to siphon us. It's because we as churches have become so bloated with nonsensical programs and things that Yes, I understand over time

46:12

Cultures and things adapt so you adapt, you know, we didn't have iPhones 25 years ago now we do things like that, you know online is a huge example of how

46:23

We do church a little differently over time But what it comes down to is people have in Tom Rainer Who church answers calm

46:33

I think is his website Tom Rainer's written a lot of books like Autopsy of a deceased church things like that Tom Rainer talks a lot about ministry silos

46:42

So if you picture a silo, right, so this is my silo and it may be labeled youth department or finance committee or this particular ministry or Whatever it is shoebox ministry

46:55

Whatever it is that these churches do and we have built these little kingdoms where you know

47:01

I've grown this church to this amount or we've always had this ministry. We've always had it That's the reason people can't wrap their heads right because they all they think is well

47:10

If we go to a plurality of elders being in charge, that means I'm no longer in charge of said ministry, right?

47:16

but the thing is Someone that says so much that stuff we don't need to begin with.

47:22

Yeah, and we do like what you're talking about We almost need churches to hit the reset button Pretend like they're in the early church and none of this other stuff exists.

47:31

Yeah, and for if I had I Would never do this at the church. I'm attending now because it would be very presumptuous of me

47:38

But if I was pastoring if I were pastoring a church right now my goal for 2023 would be for a whole year

47:45

Let's read and teach and study the Bible and let's pray and Nothing else.

47:50

Yeah, anything else is on hold Yeah, because it would change the way you view all these things is because people stand to lose so much

48:01

Control over things and that doesn't mean it would probably won't get into this in this program

48:06

I'd be for another time but just in passing That doesn't mean that if you say are you use five elders because it's it's easy math say you have five elders but then you have a group of non elders in your church that have clearly demonstrated that they have gifts for leadership and Administration and things like that, but they're not elders and they say hey

48:27

We want to try to help lead and manage the youth youth group or you know, senior

48:33

Saints or whatever it is At that point while the elders would still keep the ultimate oversight, you know

48:42

Mainly just to make sure everything's going well Sometimes the best thing an elder can do is get out of somebody's way and let them do what

48:49

God called them to do I mean sometimes and that's where the more selfish tyrannical

48:56

Not really qualified elders would say no I have to keep charge over every little thing like no sometimes the best thing you do is get out people's way

49:04

Because you're gonna have to let them make mistakes to grow, right? So I would you know when you're looking at first Peter 5 2 and you start looking these these

49:14

Qualifications how much shepherding people say well, what does that look like? Well, what does the actual shepherd do?

49:21

He protects the sheep? he You know, I don't know how much a shepherd is involved actually teaching a sheep

49:29

You know There is a level of teaching that goes on in the sense that they have to learn where their pin is

49:34

How to follow the shepherds voice There's protection there's feeding

49:40

There's all all those things that can literally be said about a literal shepherd and a little a literal sheep the animal spiritually speaking is the shepherd the the under shepherds duty in the church we are to be teaching and here's a very

49:58

Point of contention for some of those pastors that that are unbiblical in their approach.

50:03

I need to remind you It's not your sheep You are shepherding God's sheep.

50:09

That's right. They don't belong to you. You didn't die for them, right? So you're shepherding God's sheep.

50:15

You're protecting God's sheep. You're instructing God's sheep Ephesians 4 if we have time, we'll look at it.

50:22

You're you're equipping God's sheep for the work of ministry. What does that mean? That means that sheep in God's realm

50:30

Can do ministry without necessarily you holding their hand if we're going to mature sheep

50:36

God's people into being mature disciples to Live and function and go out there and do ministry and we're equipping them

50:44

That means at some point you got to let them go do ministry. That's right Well, I mean if you don't mind we'll look at some more of those

50:54

What a shepherd looks like Verses and if you don't mind, I'll just keep going through some of these verses

51:00

Yeah, John chapter 21 15 through 17. We won't read them, but everybody will be familiar with these passages

51:06

Jesus is asking Peter. Do you love me? He does that three times and then what does he say and this was some of the things that you were already talking about Andy You know the first time he says ten my lambs.

51:17

Do you love me? Well, you know what, you know, I love you that shepherd my sheep and then the last time Lord, you know all things, you know that I love you

51:24

Tim my sheep or feed my sheep and I really like what you said Andy that that feeding is

51:31

Giving them the word so that they can well and let me make this point too, which you you made so beautifully

51:38

That's what Jesus says here ten my lambs shepherd my sheep ten

51:45

Or yet ten my sheep Which that that word ten can be feed feed my sheep

51:51

So you made that point it's his sheep and the second beautiful point that you made was they need to hear his voice

51:59

Not ours. So feeding them what we're feeding them is his word so that they can hear his voice so that they can be equipped to do the ministry

52:11

And yeah, we say something real quick There's a pastor and I forget where he's located

52:17

I want to say Pennsylvania, but his name is Brett Baggett I think I'm saying his name correctly, but he's he does a lot of work with Brandon Scalf and cruciform ministries

52:26

He was actually at a conference. I went to got him preach. He has a video that he deals with this and He talks about the the understanding of church membership being a covenant

52:37

He says he says that their church they actually have a covenant as a church member You're covenanting and this is where we need and the

52:44

Covenant are here But you're covenanting as a member to do certain things and elders are covenanting to you to do certain things

52:53

So what he talks about has as a church member You know because it is a pastor ultimately is not to be coming into your home and telling you how to run your life

53:03

He's to equip you to know how to run your life And if there is sin, we have instructions on how to deal with that But the reason there's a great joy there should be for church members to as Hebrews 13 17 brings out

53:18

I want to look at that for a second You know obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls but notice this as Those who will have to give an account

53:29

The congregation isn't gonna have to give an account for how they oversee the church Why because they're not instructed to do so deacons will not have to give now

53:38

Deacons and congregations may give an account in terms of the sin that they commit by Overstepping their bounds but in terms of the account that God will hold elders to and how they shepherd

53:49

Elders are the ones that are held to that account because it says you will be held to account Every person that carries the title of pastor and elder

53:57

The reason why then this fits with your John 21 Robert where you're talking about, you know,

54:03

Jesus says tend my sheep Pastors would do well to remember it is not your sheep

54:08

You did not die for them because how you pastor them and this is the thing when people say well, you know

54:14

If we let elders be in charge, I don't know why people go to this They think it's gonna be some kind of crazy tyranny

54:21

No It's funny to me that when people are making the argument for the congregation being in charge They never think that the congregation could be tyrants, but if pastors are in charge, they only can be tyrants, but You need to understand that your pastor is gonna give an account for how he pastors you so if he does overstep or Treat you in an unkind manner or is shepherding

54:44

Unbiblical II God's gonna take care of them. Don't worry. Yeah, but notice this at the end of this verse

54:50

Let them Once again Robert the assumption of a plurality of elders here Let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you

55:03

What God is saying is as much as is it as it is within you

55:09

Keeping in mind that first Timothy 5 there are instructions on how to deal with an elder that is sinning

55:15

So we're not saying we disregard sin here, right? But as much as it is within you

55:22

Submit to your elders leadership. Let them do their job with joy understanding that and I was hey,

55:29

I'm a pastor. I'll go ahead and take the lid off the jar and break the news to everybody. We're not perfect and we make mistakes right and Hopefully people see as I've talked about it here and when

55:43

I when I talked about my biggest failure at my biggest church Most of us pastors we want to do better We recognize we have failures in our life

55:54

That doesn't mean you're morally unqualified Unless you disqualify yourself based on what

55:59

Scripture specifically says you're supposed to be doing, right? we need to allow our elders to Have missteps in the sense of as they're exercising oversight, which brings us back to first Peter 5 exercising oversight not under compulsion, but willingly not

56:18

God God's making me exercise oversight. I really don't want to know do it because you love it.

56:25

I Love pastor. There's nothing better than being able to feed one of God's sheep and see them grow

56:31

But John 21 such a great thing there because it it recognizes whose sheep they are

56:37

Yeah, but about the joy that God is it now in this context? He's telling was it

56:43

Peter there? Yeah, he's saying Peter you're gonna get to do this for me That's the great joy of the undershepherd that God has given me this ability to Shepherd his people.

56:55

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, and to the points that I wanted to make Banking off what you were saying is

57:02

I'm glad you said well you emphasize the word them when you were talking about Being accountable to God Because I wanted to reiterate what we were talking about earlier

57:12

These duties and responsibilities are for all Within the plurality of elders. They're they're universal

57:19

Responsibilities for all of them and that's why I wanted us to kind of move away from that hat tip even among us who?

57:28

Hold to the product or allow plurality of elders Still want to hold on to that single pastor system elevate that one among us

57:36

And and not do that But remember these responsibilities and duties are for all the elders and and you emphasize that you know in that text and the other thing that I wanted to to emphasize to as we're looking these responsibilities and duties is that This is what

57:52

I'm seeing and and I'm open to be corrected. But this is what I'm seeing looking at these duties responsibilities is

57:58

The elders are are here. He's saying my lambs my sheep my lambs

58:05

That's that's where the elders focus is not so much out there

58:12

Because we're equipping them to go out there Yeah, it seems like the focus of the elders instead of having these visions of programs of outreach and Mobilizing all of our members to go out and do this and go out and do that We're supposed to be focused here on our sheep and Feeding them and doing some other things that we're going to look at and letting

58:38

Preparing them to go back into their homes like you were talking about go into their workplace go out onto the streets and Well, I was gonna say just as a preemptive thing here

58:49

You know if we end up having time and it's available and you don't already have something playing with Dan I would love to have maybe one follow -up episode to this where I would love to get really deep in some of the practical things because we've kind of Hit some of the general points here

59:04

And I think there's some more to be said and I know we're you know, we're be coming up on our ending time soon but I think what you just hit is a very good point because You know the the fundamentalist pastor takes his oversight beyond where God says your oversight ends here

59:23

Anything involving the local body elders have oversight over so, you know, let's just be very practical here for example

59:32

Money that is taken in Who decides how it's spent? elders now with that being said if you're in a situation where you don't have that many elders if you have if all you have available to use one or Maybe you only have three or whatever the number is and let's say there's a group of non elders in your church that their life's work involves accounting money things like An elder would do well to involve them on that process

01:00:04

There is ways elders can have oversight over something without necessarily

01:00:09

Doing it because one of the arguments that and it's not a good one. It's it's to a degree

01:00:15

It's a straw man. One of the things I hear all the time is well I guess you say the elders just do everything congregation won't do nothing like well for one

01:00:22

You don't understand what they should be doing to begin with congregations should be making disciples being discipled

01:00:30

Discovering developing and using their gifts for the edification of the body. That's their role. Yeah, that's it.

01:00:37

Yeah, so If there's a situation where elders see Non elders in the church that can be beneficial in helping the in an oversight of a particular area

01:00:49

Use them that may be why God put them in that church. It doesn't mean that at all now

01:00:55

Let's see. Here's the thing though elders are required to be able to manage their own households part of that is managing money

01:01:01

So naturally elders should have some level of understanding of budgeting and things like that.

01:01:06

So Money elders ultimately have the oversight to how the not you This is good.

01:01:12

This may make a lot of people a lot of mad, but I come honestly from a place of love here And this is just what

01:01:19

I believe I'm open to correction But I believe the most great the way to be most consistent with Scripture is to say this

01:01:26

There should never be a vote on anything. There should not be a vote on budgets

01:01:32

There should not be a vote on this or these programs I was it because if you haven't a vote then what you're ultimately saying is you can't do something without the congregations approval

01:01:41

Now does that mean there would not be some circumstances where yes

01:01:46

You need to let the congregation know what's going on. The congregation needs to be informed and In the sense there is a lot of a lot to be said for congregations having a lot of involvement in the ordination of elders

01:01:59

Ordination of deacons things like yeah, we get all that. I'm talking about what it's become In any

01:02:05

I'm taught when I say these things what I'm talking about is in the average Southern Baptist Church You vote on what color the carpet should be

01:02:14

Shouldn't happen. Now. Should the elders be wasting their time on the color carpets? Probably not. Maybe you have a leadership team oversee that That's what

01:02:21

I'm saying. People didn't understand when we say these things we're talking about we're against what things have become

01:02:27

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't mean the congregation doesn't have a say or a role in certain things as Long as ultimately the oversights coming from where it should be.

01:02:37

Yeah, let me call my cousins and my aunts and my uncles They hadn't been to church in 13 years. Yeah, because we get ready to vote on something.

01:02:44

Yes, I Just don't see Mm -hmm, probably 90 %

01:02:49

I would say let me rephrase it this way It's likely that 90 % of what is currently voted on in churches should never be voted on it should just be the elders make the call or to in Acts 6 chat acts chapter 6 style

01:03:05

They recognize that to do that thing. It would take them away from preaching and so they find

01:03:11

Very good qualified church members who are not elders to oversee that area

01:03:17

But they still remain it doesn't mean that now they don't have oversight of that area But they would have a more hands -off approach and say, okay, we've got these qualified people overseeing this let them do their thing and as my pastors taught me if you do that and They stand up in the church and say here's what we think we should do

01:03:40

You don't need to step in at that point and contradict them in front of the congregation Because what was the whole point of having them begin with right?

01:03:46

They may not do it exactly like you would do it But that's the whole point why you had to do it begin with right so stand by your church members, right?

01:03:54

If they are put into a position of leadership Stand by them have their backs because you know what you're doing

01:04:01

You're demonstrating an example of what you want them to do for you. Yeah, that's right

01:04:07

Yeah, well, I want to make one more point before you completely run out of time But before I do that, let me let me say this

01:04:14

I think there's something to be said for You know pastoral care a shepherd with his lambs are going to are going to care for those who are wounded

01:04:23

You know I think we can find that in scripture when we when we look at the the widows and the orphans in the church were were to Take care of them and so pastoral care.

01:04:31

I think there's something said for that and then to reiterate what we just talked about One of the top functions and duties and responsibilities of a pastor is is feeding that flock which is

01:04:44

Sanctifying them leading them in holiness Letting them become familiar hearing recognizing the the chief shepherds voice a

01:04:55

Master's voice our Kings voice not ours like like Andy was telling us but his voice

01:05:00

So we're feeding we're feeding the word feeding the word feeding word. That's our major responsibility So all those other things are off our plate right now

01:05:08

We're putting feeding the sheep on our plate the and then pastoral care, you know, we can put that on our plate but but the last thing that I want to touch on and then if you want to fill in any blanks or Add anything after we talk about this one, but we'll wrap up on my end with this one 20 verses 26 through 28

01:05:32

This is their 20 acts 20 Yeah, go ahead verses 26 to 28

01:05:37

Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men

01:05:42

For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God then he says be on guard for yourselves and For your flock

01:05:54

Among which the Holy Spirit has made you Overseers to shepherd the Church of God which he purchased with his own blood and that goes back to your point

01:06:02

And I wanted to make sure that I made this point because it goes back to you know, what you were saying earlier Andy This is this is not us.

01:06:10

This is not about us and he he reiterates that twice here. He says You were you were made overseers by the

01:06:17

Holy Spirit. You didn't make yourself You didn't put yourself in this position. You were put in this position by the Holy Spirit and second.

01:06:24

It's not your flock It's not your sheep. This is this is his church the Church of God that he purchased with his own blood

01:06:32

So this has nothing to do with Anything that we are or who we are has nothing to do with us.

01:06:40

He is just granted us The the great gift and responsibility and privilege of being that under shepherd that you were talking about.

01:06:48

So with that out of the way He's telling us to be on guard for ourselves and for the flock

01:06:55

Verse 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock and from among From among your own selves men will arise speaking perverse things and draw away the disciples after them

01:07:08

Therefore be on alert remember that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one of you with tears.

01:07:15

So he's warning them people are going to come in rabbits Seven Ravenous wolves are going to come in and try to take disciples away to try to take these people down He says be on guard for yourself elder and Be on guard for your sheep.

01:07:35

So we we can't be a Well, we've got to protect ourselves put things in place that we're protecting, you know ourselves

01:07:44

Just an example You know, I'm not I'm not the biggest Billy Graham fan because of his ecumenical ism but he did do some some great things and one of those things was that the testimony of his

01:08:00

Protecting himself, you know, he would not be alone with a woman when he went to a hotel room

01:08:05

I think the story was that he would Get rid of the TV that was in his room stories like that where he was protecting himself.

01:08:13

He was guarding himself We we stay in scripture to guard ourselves and so we're and we're teaching the flock by The scriptures so that we're we're keeping them on guard

01:08:27

We're guarding them and we can't be afraid as elders to to call out things that need to be called out false teachers false teaching

01:08:34

We can't shy away from those things as elders so that we are guarding the flock if people are coming in to our flock

01:08:42

Of course we we speak the truth in love, but we can't shy away from having those

01:08:50

Confrontational moments where we have to speak with Someone coming in with heresy or false teaching

01:08:56

We just need to be able to have the the fortitude and backbone the ability to do that to guard his flock

01:09:05

And to guard ourselves So we are to to tend or feed the sheep

01:09:11

Let him them hear his voice and guard ourselves and Guard his flock and as first Peter said be examples.

01:09:23

That's what's on our plate as elders and pastor will care Well, I'll take it a step further because I like this passage what

01:09:33

I had in mind I don't know if we get here or not But I like the way the ESV translated when it's the

01:09:38

ESV translates it It says verse 28 pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock.

01:09:45

Mm -hmm So it's very clear in this verse the Holy Spirit Who is

01:09:51

God is? in charge of Determining who the overseers are.

01:09:58

Yeah, you do not make yourself an overseer the Holy Spirit does this is very consistent with first Timothy 3 where it talks about if a man desires to be an overseer, it doesn't mean a

01:10:13

Self -originated desire so The calling that I have personally as a pastor that any pastor will tell you

01:10:23

In my pastor Jay Wagner puts this very well he always says you you really know that you're called to be an overseer an elder if Nothing else in this life will fulfill you but that I'm very fortunate to have a full -time job with Farm Bureau.

01:10:39

Go Farm Bureau. Very fortunate. I am appreciative of it I'm paid well good schedule.

01:10:46

I like the people I work with I Just not fulfilled doing it.

01:10:51

I'm just not it's not now look don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I'm unhappy. I Enjoy it.

01:10:56

It's good work It's not what I was called to do It's not now in by vocational if I were to have a small church say that God want me to pastor

01:11:06

They don't have the funds to pay me. Obviously this kind of job would be great I do think there's a great argument to be made that you know me personally,

01:11:15

I Don't think you should necessarily as a general rule have a vocational pastor.

01:11:21

Let all the pastors go get jobs Let them share the leadership of the church and go live your life and don't because you need to be careful when you have an agenda driven pastor a

01:11:34

Pastor that clearly doesn't recognize that Holy Spirit made him an overseer

01:11:41

For notice in verse 28 to care for the Church of God not for the Church of pastor so -and -so which he

01:11:49

Obtained with his blood. Yeah, not yours, right?

01:11:55

You had to have his blood for your sins, right and his blood purchased his church

01:12:02

There's only one owner of the church. I had an interview with the church one time and ultimately didn't work out

01:12:09

But having been through what I went through I know what questions asked now and the first question

01:12:15

I always ask any interview I ever go to And I've had probably three since then first question is who owns the church

01:12:21

I Hate to sound like I'm laughing Honestly, I feel for him, but I'll get things like well

01:12:29

I guess whoever's on the property record and these kinds of things like And then I'll have to tell them but see that's a big red flag for me

01:12:37

If we don't even know as a church who owns the church. Yeah, we've got a big problem

01:12:43

But the you there are that you see it and you know forget TV forget online forget famous churches and preachers

01:12:50

I'm not saying they're not important. I'm Put them to the side for a second. I'm talking about your local church in your local town

01:12:57

You can tell pretty quickly if a pastor's about himself or if he's about the church

01:13:03

Yeah, and this whole thing you touched on I ain't really said much about it yet But this whole like casting vision and all this stuff.

01:13:09

You don't need to do it Yeah, Matthew 28 is pretty clear, that's right,

01:13:15

I mean You don't need to keep casting vision. You don't need to be saying talk about in my

01:13:21

I really wish And the thing is I'm not against all program there's a lot there's some programs and some things that churches do that are very good

01:13:33

But I really wish we could do just what I call bare -bones Christianity, right?

01:13:39

Let the church just be about spiritual maturity Equipping Saints to go out to do ministry to go out to do evangelism

01:13:48

Stop making churches where their evangelistic meetings where we're you know, and I'm not getting a whole altar call deal right now but just let's just You know because if you do it that way

01:13:58

Then the most prominent just job descriptions if you will of the pastor come into play shepherding teaching

01:14:07

Feeding Caring for the flock those things should be the prominent things, right?

01:14:13

Not, you know, it Keith is it last name Foskey, right? All right. Yeah, he's got a great tick -tock video where he does, you know will sell me on your church.

01:14:21

What does your church do? That is an excellent one. He's like, well, I'm not here to sell you on my church.

01:14:27

I'm like, but that's our mentality It's like what does your church have for me? I'm like No the church member is

01:14:34

What can I do for God by Covenanting with this body to edify and build others up and disciple them while I'm being discipled, right?

01:14:47

But my last word in all this, you know, I'm kind of hard on Congregationally led people sometimes that God bless them.

01:14:54

I'm sure they it's just not it's not what I believe to be accurate But I want to say a word to pastors, you know to for my closing thought, you know

01:15:04

Robert nailed it here a it's clear Hey pay careful attention to yourselves

01:15:13

Now Robert made a good point about that. I'm on I'm gonna let's assume his point and I'm gonna add to it

01:15:20

Paying a careful attention to yourselves. What does that mean? It means before you get in that pulpit and dare to instruct any of God's sheep how they should live look at yourself.

01:15:31

Mm -hmm and Any Pat and a lot of pastors do this my pastor his name's

01:15:36

Andy too So what the whole joke was I got to preach for him last summer and I got there

01:15:41

So hey, if I mess up you can just blame Andy, you know, I don't think it was me But he does this a lot.

01:15:46

He'll say look for I even get up here to preach to y 'all. I have preached to myself Like yes, sir

01:15:52

If you're not paying a careful attention to yourselves You will not be shepherding God's people the way he wants you to shepherd them

01:16:00

Don't ever forget that You didn't sign up for it. God called you and so people tend it's

01:16:08

I think even on Twitter They didn't think I'm just so hard on Congregations and deacons like no no, I'm far harder on pastors than I am deacons congregations because So many

01:16:19

Pat I have to make sure I do this It's not your sheep

01:16:26

It's not your church It's not your little mini kingdom to build it's

01:16:32

God's yeah period Yeah, well and we want to say this to pastors first We we say these things

01:16:42

I like visuals. I'm thinking about a plate, you know, we and we talk about that analogy You know, my plates full my plates are running.

01:16:48

I got too much on my plate Let's put the biblical things on our plate What does

01:16:54

Jesus say about his yoke his yoke is is easy and his burden is light

01:17:00

So the the things that God has us to do from Scripture as elders will fill up our plate

01:17:07

But his his burden is easy and his his yoke is light

01:17:13

Yeah, if I got that, right But But If we begin to allow all these other expectations from our congregation onto our plate pushing those biblical

01:17:26

Expectations out then that that yoke and that burden is going to weigh us down and become so heavy that It we're going to burn out and and we will not risk, you know receive that blessing from Christ Yeah, and we may do a lot of things that that temporarily may may lift us up we can you know, we can do these programs we can

01:17:49

Coordinate this entertainment and draw a lot of people in and and say, you know, look at look at our church

01:17:56

Look at me. Look what we've done. God is blessing us. We're so happy but that that that's only for a season

01:18:03

It's going to collapse. The only thing that's gonna last is having things on our plate That are biblical responsibilities and duties as a pastor.

01:18:15

I Closing their doors. They're now museums that you know, these million -dollar facilities that are that have just collapsed

01:18:23

You know, they they were built up because they had a charismatic leader. They had a lot of good programs They did all this, you know good entertainment, but eventually they all collapse.

01:18:33

What's going to last are the things of God And so let's let's let's put our arm around our pastors out there for a minute, too

01:18:40

Yeah, I just I just chastise all of us pretty hard, but I want to put our arm around them, too One of the most courageous things you'll ever do as a pastor

01:18:48

I know this personal experience is to look people in dead in their eyes and Tell them and this is where you have to have you have to model

01:18:58

Christ as a pastor You're not beating people over the head with it, but just very calmly but firmly and courageously say

01:19:04

I'm sorry But I cannot do that because it would take me away from my biblical mandate

01:19:11

I've been told to my face. We pay your salary. You will do what we told you to do They want me to do something.

01:19:17

I don't even was completely ridiculous Not had nothing to do with feeding teach the word work and I told him

01:19:24

I said Unfortunately, you're incorrect God pays my salary just like he pays yours now

01:19:30

He may use you as a means to get that money to me But if I allow for you to be the source of my income in terms of authority

01:19:38

Then I have to submit to you and I do not I submit to Scripture and submit to God and if I do this thing

01:19:44

I Won't be doing what God wants me to do and if I stand before him one day and give an account I'd much rather say

01:19:50

I Displeased man and pleased him right now the putting the arm around the pastor moment comes in here

01:19:57

If that's the only job you have and you're thinking about your family That's where I was at.

01:20:04

That's why by vocational We may need to train up a generation of pastors that that go that route

01:20:10

So that you have a way of being more not forcing or being mean or unkind

01:20:16

But you can afford and it makes it a little easier to have that courage

01:20:22

Yeah, because you will run into those situations if you are by yourself as a pastor in a plurality situation

01:20:30

It may be a little less likely right, but if you're the single pastor Those things can happen and People will say well you didn't visit me or you didn't do this because they don't have the right biblical framework

01:20:45

Don't be mad at that person It's not that it's not their fault, but they haven't been taught

01:20:51

So what should be going on in your mind is I need to teach this because they haven't been fed that yet Yeah, that particular plate at the buffet.

01:20:59

They haven't received that yet But in a moment you may have to and you got to be pick and choose your battles

01:21:06

I Failed that miserably in my two and a half years I tried to fight every battle and I failed miserably, but I've learned as I've matured that you can't fall on every sword

01:21:18

Sometimes just go ahead and do what they're wanting Appease them and move on because that battle isn't worth happening if it's an older congregant and they mean well

01:21:29

You can pick up on that and say you know what I'm just gonna go ahead and do it because it may be that that's

01:21:36

What one of God's sheep needs in that moment is a pastor just to love them hear them out But there will be times where you may have to say

01:21:44

I'm sorry. I can't do that. Yeah And lastly, I just want to say one quick thing to the congregation.

01:21:51

Let's check ourselves and Let's not put more on our pastors our elders then they need to have let's free them up To keep on their plate what

01:22:03

God has called them to keep on their plate And so let's let's let's check ourselves and love our pastors pray for them and not add more to them

01:22:11

Than what is biblically called for and with that being said I'm gonna I'm gonna ask Andy to pray after I speak

01:22:18

The gospel to the best of my ability You know we What we have in common with each other is that we are all in Adam first we because of the disobedience of our first parents all men and women are

01:22:40

In sin, we can't do anything but sin that is our nature. That's why we call it a sin nature

01:22:47

We have broken every law that God has spoken to us if not multiple times

01:22:56

One of my go -to verses that that reminds me of our position is James chapter 2 verse 10

01:23:02

Even if you keep the whole law if you only stumble at one point you're guilty of it all we stand before a holy

01:23:09

God in Horrible horrible circumstances

01:23:16

That that we have ourselves have put ourselves in we we have sinned against him we've broken his law we're transgressors

01:23:24

We in and of ourselves There's no hope there's no hope within this world among men

01:23:33

We we could search high and low we could search every cave go to the depths of the sea highest mountain the meditate the longest

01:23:43

Reach Zen, whatever we could do we could never Find any ounce of hope for ourselves

01:23:50

That's why God had to step in and come into this world himself to rescue his own because of his

01:23:59

Gracious loving kindness and his mercy toward us He loves his creation enough that he would step in and come in and save us and rescue us.

01:24:09

And so Because of that great love We should submit to him

01:24:16

We should with hearts full of gratitude. We should submit to him God calls us in his word to repent of our sins to to change our mind about who we are about our our love for our sin and turn that love and affection toward the

01:24:34

Savior and That will change the direction of our behavior and so God calls us to repent of our sins and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and He promises that when we do that We will be saved.

01:24:50

He will cause us to be born again. He will grant us repentance and faith and We will live forever with him according to scripture

01:25:01

We will be brought into his kingdom We will be able to serve with joy in his kingdom despite whatever this world may throw at us

01:25:09

Because he promises that he will never leave us nor forsake us So if if you have never repented of your sins put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ That's you know, that's our greatest emphasis it's for people to come to know

01:25:24

Christ as their Lord and Savior submit to him as King and Then to follow him in obedience in scripture and so if you've never done that come to him tonight and we encourage you to continue to go out and and share that same gospel with your loved ones your friends your

01:25:44

Family and strangers and with that Andy, would you mind to close us in prayer? Amen father?

01:25:51

Would you ask that you would bless our time together? I'm thankful for this opportunity to talk about a very important subject and I pray that anyone that would watch or listen to this would hear that while we have a

01:26:06

Clear understanding of what we believe scripture to be teaching. We also recognize that We're working through this as well

01:26:13

We want to come to a deeper understanding of your word and what you are telling us to do and father

01:26:18

There will be those that disagree with us and that's okay. It's As your body as your church we wrestle with these things and I just hope that we all have the same end goal and that is to be biblical and Do look

01:26:33

I do pray that if there's anyone in her sound of our voice tonight that is not saved that has not been born again from above as Jesus puts it in John 3 to be born from above that they would be drawn to you and They would repent of their sin and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and Father, I just pray that you would bless this effort tonight by Robert myself that churches would even if they don't agree with everything we said that they would see that this is an important topic and that they would look at their own church and Ask the question.

01:27:13

Are we as biblical as we possibly can be? What does scripture say about what we should be doing and are we doing that and that's our ultimate goal here father that churches would grow in greater maturity in all areas including that of church leadership and We want to thank you for everything tonight in the wonderful and precious name of Jesus Christ.

01:27:34

Amen Amen. Thank you for watching the truth and love podcast. We again. We really appreciate it

01:27:39

Thank you for your support and prayers And as always we want you to remember that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ Just speak with the authority of Christ and continue to go out there and share the gospel of Christ We hope to see you real soon