TiL- Duties/Job Description of a Pastor

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. We hope you can stick with us tonight. We're going to talk about the duties or job descriptions of a pastor. Welcome again to the truth in love podcast. We're so thankful that you could join us.

Thank you for watching. We really appreciate it. We appreciate your support and your prayers if we can pray for you. We'd love to be able to do that. Sorry for the late start tonight. Had some setbacks, but that's okay.

I'm thankful that Andy is with me tonight. Andy Cain and tell us the name of your ministry your podcast.

Well, I probably should have gave you a heads up before we started. I'm actually going through a lot of changes So I currently don't have anything out there. Okay public, but I've been historically had and I'll probably still use the same name by his grace because it really goes back to The whole origin of So much for me which by I guess you'd call a tagline.

You know everything that we have everything we are is by the grace of God and I've just over the last year one thing I found it's serious. We're talking about pastors night because when I was a pastor for two and a half years and I still am I just not Currently on staff anywhere, right?

The two and a half years I had a lot of time to Take on a lot more and so over the past three years that since I've been transitioning and Hopefully in 2023. I'll find a new place to land. I realize that when you're working full-time You don't have enough time to do all those things.

So I've been downsizing and retooling and also since I've been helping and doing a lot for the truth love network. I'm really I found that with me I have to purposefully and intentionally turn everything off and Give myself time to pray and think things through.

I know there's probably a lot of people out here that would listen this and say that sounds like me. Because if I keep trying to trudge along I'll try this and this and this and this before you know it like it's a big me jumbled mess so I'm currently really thinking things through and I think I Have a lot of ideas swimming in my head of what I want to do.

So we'll see what happens. My goal is to hopefully buy in January to start back up with some stuff nice nice.

By the way, the comment line is open. Let us know that you're watching. Say hello. Ask a question. Give a critique. Somebody really stumped me the last time Dan and I were alive and I'm still Researching that that question and it's okay to do that.

We don't have a 13 thing. It was a Matthew 13 and Daniel chapter 12.

That's tough. It's that I mean I read it now like I'm not getting into that one because I don't I mean I the older I get I'm getting a lot better admitting what I don't know and I struggle with with that one.

That was it's a really tough one. And and I want to get there. I want to keep going after it. I want to get there, but it's a tough one. And it's one of those that you've got to be careful taking which which thing you take publicly because.

You.

You'll start leaning towards certain positions and People will give you a hard time for those positions. So you gotta you got to be careful and of course you I want to.

Line up.

Where the Bible is speaking? And not and not smoosh, you know my Certain eschatology or my certainness interpretation in on that passage. So well just as an example.

Yeah, I was having a discussion with a guy on Twitter named David Green the other day. He kind of put his heart out there and he I think he and I disagree but I appreciate the fact that he went in depth and put it out there for the sake of discussion on the Atonement and You know, we're not gonna get in that here today.

But just as an example, I struggle with. I'm firmly convinced that Jesus cried died just to pay the sins of the elect. I think Hebrews in its totality is clear. At the same time I was telling this gentleman I have to reconcile that with the fact there are many many verses that speak of Christ dying for the whole world and since the whole World and you know, you have to look at them individually in their context, but right there is some Tension in my mind and why I have to be kind of careful not to be overly dogmatic.

But at the same time someone were to ask me I'd say well, here's where I fall at the moment. But I think maturity calls for us to be open to the fact that you know, we could be wrong. Yeah, yeah on some things, you know, of course some things are very clear.

Well, and I've seen people post this recently. It may have been. It may have been. Brandon scoff. He posted something about being being teachable. And being humble. I can't remember exactly what he posted.

Yeah, but um. Yeah, I want to. I want to stay right there where I'm where I remain teachable and and have the mindset where you know I don't know everything.

I mean.

I've had to change my theology quite a few times to match scripture and not what I Thought it was or what I grew up believing. So yeah.

I want to actually right there like the way you put that because when you look at the subject we're dealing with the night. It's very difficult for people to give up what they've always known or what they've always done.

Right when they start realizing that scripture says something completely different. That's right. That's right. Let me start with this.

Here's a funny question for you. So when when does your family? Begin to list begin to listen to Christmas music. Oh, we already have. Yeah, you have a certain Line that you draw never before this line never before this date.

I don't think we have anything hard and hard in the sand.

Because I spent you know, roughly 13 14 years working at food line and good lord. They started playing Christmas music so early. I mean a food line employee is done with Christmas by December 2nd. Gotcha.

Yeah, we are we're already listening to it we love it man. We we're all about Christmas. The day for Thanksgiving. All the decorations were up. We're ready to roll.

Yeah, we our weekend is veterans Veterans Day weekend. Okay, would would we. Would we be able to catch you not to embarrass you? But we would we be able to catch you listening to Christmas music when you're in the vehicle by yourself.

I listen to Christmas music on the way home from church tonight in the vehicle by myself.

Yeah, I listen to it too as well.

And then I came inside kind of humming the song that I heard on the radio. So yep. Gotcha. Gotcha.

The Biblical Model of Church Leadership and the Need for Plurality

All right. Well, let's jump into the subject tonight. We want to talk about Duties job description of a pastor and this kind of stem from.

A.

Facebook post that I made and a question that somebody posed to me. Well, what is what is the duties of a pastor? And I was like, you know We've done videos. I'm sure you've talked about it. The qualifications of a pastor and you know.

We go through the qualifications of a pastor whenever our churches are looking for one. We go through the qualifications of a deacon every time it's Time for elections again. However, your church does it, you know in the Baptist setting we do elections every so often.

So we go through the qualifications of deacons for pastors. But you know, I begin to think about it. We rarely hear Duties and job descriptions and I hope you know why that is. Well, go ahead.

The reason that is is because I largely speak here just for Southern Baptist churches because that's The thing I'm most familiar with I can't really speak for Presbyterians or things like that but so, you know, you kind of have to keep that in mind when I when I talk but the reason is was because.

The way they do things isn't in line with scripture so if you start having conversation about what scripture says It's gonna become apparent very quickly that you're not doing it, right and that you're looking at your pastor incorrectly.

Yeah, and I've heard sermons from the other side and this is something I want to say, you know. We're off the top here, you know I say a lot not so much on Facebook a lot on Twitter about this subject about church church health.

Church leadership is is a focus of mine. There's other people that you know probably amongst our truth and love network brethren that may not be in it as much as I am like, you know, I know Keith has a focus on it, you know.

So, you know not everybody's focused on the same things as much as some but for me It's a big focus. And so it happened the other day where I Posted something, you know saying something very direct about this is something that is the way it should be and That people will do these things where they do the immediate assumption of the opposite extreme.

So I'll say something about elders need to be to do needn't to do such-and-such. Yeah, and the immediate assumption is oh, I guess us peons and the pews don't do anything and it's just all I'm like.

Totally not what I'll say and so I'm kind of grateful that you when you texted me to do the show I was like, well, this is the perfect opportunity for people to see my face. Yeah, and let me walk through some of these things and then when you hear me out, then you're like, oh, he's not that crazy.

Well, I'm glad you said what you said at the very very beginning about our tendency not to line up with scripture because I'm hoping tonight that we can be real and we can talk straight about this subject and.

Like as the truth and love network says in a loving and encouraging way, that's right. Shameless plug.

And that's what that's the way. Of course, we pull that from scripture as well. And just like we said the beginning we want to be. We want to remain teachable. We may not cover everything and. Hopefully, we're not in error, but we will take criticism as well but we want to be straight.

We want to be real because you know, we I think the way we speak about stuff Andy and myself and and other ones we see. Places where we need correction in our churches and so we have a passion about that because we want to.

We want to stick with scripture and not not stray as far as so many have from scripture.

Unfortunately, I do think. And I would just say there's a percentage of Southern Baptist Church I don't know what that percentage would be but there is definitely and I would say it's probably more than 50 percentage of Southern Baptist Churches that I Don't I honestly please people under I don't mean to sound harsh the way this is gonna sound.

Mm-hmm I don't think when it comes to the subject of church leadership that a lot of Southern Baptist Churches want to be biblical. I don't see it. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That means there isn't a lot of church that do.

But I you also have to recognize that there is a piece of the pie I think they truly do just this is way we want to do it and you have to be careful how you Handle that if you're in one of those situations and I used to think that My pastor my mentor.

Dr. RJ Wagner. Wonderful man, I wish he could be everybody's pastor. He's got He's a lot different than me. He's a lot. He's very similar to me in some ways, but his personality being more reserved and different and more behind-the-scenes type Was the perfect for me to play off of and he spent 25 30 years in one church.

Slowly teaching them over time about the morality of elders and all these things we're gonna talk about. And when he retired they still weren't there. But he was built and wired to be able to handle the long haul.

Yeah, and I used to think that I wasn't because I'm so matter-of-fact, you know. That's what God's Word says either you're doing it or you're not. Yeah, the older I get I'm not there yet I still need a lot of work.

I'm Starting to become more of a persevering long haul. Understanding that that church may not have studied that subject as much as I have so naturally they wouldn't think about it like I do. Right. I'm starting to get there and if you're a church out there that You hear some of the things we talk about you're like, we're not doing that or we're not doing this.

You can't walk into your church tomorrow and try to do wholesale changes. Yeah, it will not work. That's right. You will have an explosion of a powder keg on your hands. Yeah. Yeah, but You need to start talking about it and teaching it and working towards.

Yeah, getting there if that makes sense. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, it's um. It's about tact. It's about following following the following the Lord and and not. Going in like a bull in the china shop.

Yeah, because really what we're talking about here is. This subject of church leadership is no different than any other subject. Like I said, we should want to be submitted to scripture in. What it says?

Yeah, and what God is clearly saying we should do it. I do believe in the subject of church leadership. I don't believe this to be a gray area or a foggy area. I believe it's really clear. Yeah. Yeah, and.

It may be the case, you know, and I'm not gonna speak, you know, there's not a verse I can't pull a verse out but I Can't help but think you know when we stray from scripture and in doing things according to scripture.

We're gonna have issues we're gonna have problems. But when we stick with scripture You know, we might we may not be blessed according to how the world Judges blessing, but we will be counted as faithful and God will use our faithfulness.

How he sees fit and and that's our that's our main goal that's our main job is our is our faithfulness to scripture and how God and Christ our King wants us to do things and not the world and not our visions.

And I Think when we when we look at these things We talk about having things on our plate having too much on our plate. If if we just do the things as a pastor as an elder that scripture tells us to do we'll have plenty on our plate.

But what seems to happen is there's so many other things that begin to fill up our plate the things of scripture begin to slide off and we're All we have left on our plate is those other things that are outside of scripture and we run into so many problems I'm sure you've seen this and many other people have seen this.

Being involved in church leadership being involved in churches for so long. There's issues that we face as pastors. You've got You've got families who want to want and I'm just gonna be speak straight and be real.

You've got families in churches who you know, they're they're not very. They don't have a lot of clout in the world, but they have numbers within the church. Yeah, and that's their place of power. And so they want to rule the church and so for you as a pastor to To keep your job you've got to please that family or on the other end you have you have business men and women in the in the world who are Leaders in your church or members in your church and they give a lot of money so you've got to please those people and do things their way in order to keep your job and.

And.

Both of those areas are real struggles for for many pastors and.

And they just outlined by far. And since I am now over the three-year mark being removed from my first church I'm able to see this far more clearly now my biggest failure in my first two and a half years as a pastor.

Since I had never experienced any of it. I Did not respond very well to all those types of things you're outlining when it happened to me the first time. Yeah, I was fortunate to be under Jay Wagner. For at least the decade.

I don't I don't know. I first preached no 9 Pastored 2017. I probably was under him for more than decade I was under his mentorship to be ordained and trained as a pastor for probably six seven years and I was there.

He had already been there since 92. So where I'm at the Prime quote-unquote of his pastoral role in this church. That was him. And so I saw a very healthy overall church and I saw a lot of things being done correctly, so I was not in a place where it was the opposite.

So I never got exposure to now. I don't know there could have been some things going on. I know since You know, he we have different conversations now because I'm in the same role he is. Maybe he hid some things or maybe there were some things.

He just didn't exposed it. All I could tell is we're in a church. I love each other and there was no over any problems. It seemed like everything was going well, maybe I was naive or what? Unfortunately, and I'm not gonna get too deep in this because I don't want to come off as talking ill the first place I was at or anything like that.

I don't I don't want to be like that, but I will say There were many power groups. Even what we would call church cartels there were. It was a lot of issues and since I had never been exposed to that.

My first reaction and my only reaction was this ain't right. We should not be like this, right? Never stopping to consider that they're like this for a reason and I always said I want to have one church to be there for 50 years and I could have been there for 50 years.

Had I hit the reset button said Andy you got to accept that. This is the way it is. You got to accept that. It's at least possible that God may have me for here 50 years and it never changes. Hmm. That doesn't change the fact that if I get in the pulpit, I'm going through a text of Scripture it deals with I can't say Confidently and directly What the scripture says?

Yeah, and then let the chips where they fall and then trust that God will work in his people over time. I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah. Now that wasn't Jay's fault. It was all me. Yeah, and I I'm telling you I was just telling somebody Wednesday night at church God it's amazing to me the older I get how God uses suffering to break us and Humble us and the suffering went through at that church.

I saw as you know at the time Why would God put me here? He knows, you know these gifts and things I have would be better suited. You know all those prideful things we say right? Yeah, seeing that the sin that I had to deal with and now I'm thinking the church of men now I'm not officially on staff or anything, but I've told the pastor I can still function as an elder in this church by having your back.

Being where use where I can and I'm not looking at okay. I see this problem needs to be fixed. God may not want me to fix it. God and you you nailed it. He may just want me to be faithful what he's called me to do at the time.

Right, and that's something that I've looked at and when you're talking about this families and things that you know it. It's a very real thing and it's unfortunate but to me. And I think this is sorry to have cut you off.

I think that's where you're going with it. That's a symptom. The underlying issue is the submission to Scripture. That's right. Sorry to go long there, but that wasn't that's okay and.

The Church Is Not a Democracy: Authority, Accountability, and Biblical Eldership

Just one more example of the struggles that we have and I think it's going to lead us into our first passage was his first Peter chapter 5. Another issue that we have because of our own biblical model of polity church leadership is We have the single pastor system with a plurality of deacons and we set the deacons up as Functioning as elders as rulers and so they they want to you know.

Use their power and you and you have to do things the deacons way. Instead of having a plurality of elders and a plurality of deacons and the deacons, you know Primary role is to serve and you have elders.

That rule we put we elevate the deacons to to a Responsibilities that is not given to them in Scripture and then we have problems.

Which we just deferred go ahead the church. I pastored in 2008. They had 180 in attendance when I got there. It was probably 115 by the time I left is probably 95. For the history of the church. They have 21 active deacons at all times.

In a church with and now they're running probably 60 and they still have 21 deacons. It's sad it breaks my heart it really does it. It's hard not to look at it and laugh because it's it really is a joke.

But these are real people so I have to try to fight against that sin and say, you know. This is this is heartbreaking because it's so wrong. Yeah, I mean, I I know. There's churches out there. They have probably I Know of one that has over 500 and not just 500 rolls.

I mean like they actually show up. Even the one I'm attending now, I think we have roughly 300 active members probably and they have like they have like nine deacons. I mean, but see you're and the thing I said at night I think I put on Twitter if you have a vote on something.

Whoever's voting is the real authority because if you can't do something without a vote. That means whoever's doing the vote has the real authority because ultimately you can't do it without their approval, right?

And we've completely flipped and. And not in every church, you know, I think all this kind of goes without saying we're that's right. I think people that watching this are gonna know we're not saying this is everywhere, but in a large a Large amount of churches we have flipped what the Bible says to do, right?

Because I call it the Americanized business form of church, you know. Think about it a politician has constituents. A lot of people act like church members are constituents that you had there to please like yeah.

No, you're not.

There's only one person whose voice actually matters and that's Jesus Christ. And any elder and you brought up, you know, just as some preliminary things here. I was watching God, man, I wish I could remember the guy's name.

I want to make sure I give him credit. I can't remember it I apologize, but I was watching a video today where a guy, you know, they talked about the one pastor deal they said you know about these churches that just don't have more than one not because they're against it because.

Then he said look. Some churches are just simply doing the best they can. Yeah, and a pastor named Christopher Sheffield who Pastors a reformed Baptist Church south of me in a place called Rocky Mountain, North Carolina.

You may you ever heard of Rocky Mountain?

I've heard of Rocky Mountain.

Yeah, he's in Rocky near Rocky Mount and I had this conversation with him one day and he really changed my mind on How to address this because I was talking largely about how I was thinking in terms of the quantity, you know.

You have to have a plurality. You have to have plurality. He said Andy you're looking at this the wrong way, man. He said the biblical commitment is to biblically qualified men to lead. Mm-hmm, and I pair that with right response ministries.

Joel Webb and I believe his name is I watched a video with him recently. Where he was talking about we've dropped the ball on ordination. We tend to lay hands on men far too quickly. Yeah, that's right.

We would need to take a lot more serious. Look at a man before because Thing people understand is what are you ordaining them to not to be under the congregation? That's that silly. Because what you know, you take church voting on things.

You have in any given congregation mature Christians. Immature Christians babes in Christ and flat-out goats unsafe people. God doesn't want goats making decisions in his church. He doesn't want immature Christians now.

It doesn't mean they're horrible people or we shouldn't love them. They need to be matured right but immature Christians should not be making decisions. He wants his biblically Qualified men to do that.

So a church that has one single pastor if they're committed to Biblically qualified men. Coming and helping to oversee then. If all I have is one available to him if they're out so far in the country and that's all it's available.

Yeah, then they're doing the best they can. That's right. That's right. That's right. Well, and I wanted to touch on this elder thing because Peter does so our first question is Peter chapter 5. And I want us I wanted to start there and I want to introduce something to you.

And get your thoughts on this before we really dive into the duties and responsibilities of a pastor but in verse 1 of chapter 5 Peter says therefore I exhort the Elders among you that there's that plurality of elders that we're talking about.

That's that's our that's our goal even for you know. Those people that are unable they know that this is the biblical model and they want to strive towards that when possible. But the biblical model is I exhort the elders among you as your fellow elder witness of the sufferings of Christ, so so Peter is speaking to the the elders of that congregation and so We we've we've talked about it the the single pastor system is not.

Is not the biblical model the plurality of elders is and so we should strive to have a plurality of elders in our churches but I think even and Help me if I'm wrong here, but I've been thinking about this this this week even those churches that are Striving towards they see this in Scripture.

Yes, this is the biblical model that we should have a plurality of elders. They still want to tip their hat to that old model and say even among a plurality of elders. We still need a one we still need that one that's kind of over us all that's the teaching or Preaching elder we need that one.

Do we see that in Scripture and I was looking at? First Timothy, I should have put my finger on it, but I was looking at first Timothy and and maybe this is one of the passages First Timothy 5 17 this may be one of the passages that they that they go to and say see that there is One or you know one or two that are kind of set apart it says in first Timothy chapter 5 verse 17 the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor then it says especially those who work hard at preaching at teaching and I read that I'm like That's maybe where people go to say Yeah, we should set aside one.

That is our main preaching elder. But when we talk about this and when we when we study this We try to make sure that we're clear all the elders are. You would be one among equals. So, why do we tip our hat to that single pastor system?

To where we have a We single out one that is the main teaching Pastor elder that seems to be yes, we're all equal, but he's the one I Mean, it seems like we're a little inconsistent there. It seems like the way and even this verse.

Yeah, you could tweak it that way. But basically Paul is telling Timothy those who they're worthy of double honor those who are working hard at preaching and teaching. All of you should be working at preaching teaching all of you should be working hard but those that are working hard at it, not that you're singling singling them out as You know one set aside as the main teaching elder, but there's some of you that may be working hard at teaching and preaching.

They're worthy worthy of double honor, I don't think that this verse is saying that we should single out one. And I think we should maybe be more consistent with our teaching when we say elders you're you're one among equals and.

Then.

Kind of move away from the hat tip to that old system, but we need to have that one. But what do you think.

Well first I'll kind of follow the same path you went when you start in first Peter 5 where he says So I exhort elders among you. One of the things because we're to interpret Scripture normally plainly based on you know authors intent all these different things, so when you start looking at a Subject in Scripture where you're having to go to more than one place You tend to take and this is the beauty and the harmony of Scripture.

You don't see contradiction you see and specifically here this is uh you know in These epistles where you get things that that Paul has written you see a lot of his consistent vocabulary and things like that.

So what we see is That there is an assumption in Scripture that you have a plurality of elders among you, right? You don't necessarily see and I could be wrong. I'm 99 confident here. There's nothing in Scripture that specifically commands that you have more than one elder in your church.

But what we see is that the assumption is that you'll have a plurality of leadership and we find the reasons for.

This.

Within the greater all in taking consideration all that has to be said about the subject. Right, and we also learn why it's not good to have just one pastor by taking in consideration all that has to be said about the subject so since and those that want to Make the argument for congregational led or whatever unfortunately for them.

Since that's not what it's just what I believe since not what Scripture teaches. Why are we going to ensure that someone is qualified before or dating them? It's because of the authority that Scripture is telling them to exercise.

That's right. That's right. And so one things I always tell people. And John MacArthur handles this well, there's a very good video online that or he is asked, you know. How much of authority a pastor has or whatever?

He very plainly says none and it seems contradictory, but it's actually not the pastor himself. I myself have zero authority churches only one authority in church is Jesus Christ. That's right. He mediates his authority through his word.

Yeah as an elder if I am qualified. It is part of my personal submission to Scripture into Christ to exercise Oversight over whatever local body I've been given charge of because Christ has called me I've shown myself to be qualified and therefore Christ says since I'm in heaven I want you to be my undershepherd and Exercise authority over this particular congregation because I'm not there to do it myself, right?

So it's part of the elders submission to Scripture their obedience to Scripture to exercise first. We'll look at this when we get through more of first Peter 5 where it talks about how the elders supposed to exercise the oversight.

That's right. But the assumption is the plurality and why. Well. Some very practical reasons since Christ wants his elders to have the oversight in the charge of the church. The temptation for any one man is pride.

To be a tyrant, right and we're not gonna get into it because I have a feeling it probably trigger me but the fundamentalist Baptist movement. Not all of them. You can't paint the brush completely broad.

But my experience the vast majority of them are narcissists tyrants rule with an iron fist they go beyond Simply Christ saying I want you to oversee this local body to start saying in your personal life I'm in charge.

I mean for crying out loud. Linda Murphy the daughter of Jack Hiles has a TED talk where she specifically talks about how his church members and in particularly His deacons wouldn't take their family vacation unless Jack Hiles approved.

Here's one pastor over a 10 ,000 person church and he had brainwashing capabilities over all. That we you know and people sometimes want to act like somehow I'm saying that's the model because I I speak so directly against congregationally led Forms of government.

It doesn't mean the opposite extreme is true in my view. I I rightfully recognize There are disqualified men carrying the pastor of title. Yeah, there are tyrants.

Narcissists.

Self-centered. Idiots in Carrying the title of pastor. And they need to be removed from that office. But one of the things that's great about the plurality is if you have a plurality and all those men are qualified.

You could have that accountability there. Yeah, I saw this in practice very well when I was in Emporia, Virginia. We had a pastoral association.

Group and.

Four or five of us men would you know that we're getting together? It got to where I was, you know since I was a single pastor and that's the thing I would make the argument for a truly or Biblically qualified man, even if he's in a church where he's the only pastor is going to naturally desire accountability from other pastors, right?

So even if you're the only pastor in your church as I was You're gonna try to go find another pastor in your community and say look I want to develop a relationship with you. I want you to hold me accountable because the tendency is If you're by yourself To and God does not intend for one man to have that kind of power.

I mean you look through all the Old Testament scripture throughout New Testament scripture. Shared leadership is the model right shared leadership is the goal. Well, let's talk just for a second here.

Very practically why that's important. Okay. Every biblically qualified elder is required to be morally qualified. They're required to be able to teach. But they're not all required to have every spiritual gift possible.

So take let's say you have five elders in a church one may be in this I'm getting to the part Where you're the first Timothy five let the elders who rule will Be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

All elders are required to be able to teach but not all elders will equally teach as well. Thank you. Take a very practical understanding of this. I'm a preacher. I could probably name for you five off the top of my head.

I think preach far better than I do far better. Now does that mean I'm a bad preacher? No but it means There are Distinctions there there may be an elder among you that is very encouraging or is tech savvy.