Truth in Love Special Interview- Gary DeMar

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Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. We're so happy you're with us tonight

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We have a special guest Gary DeMar and we're gonna be talking about hermeneutics stick with us

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Welcome back to the truth and love podcast. We are again thankful that you're with us. The comment line is open

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We would love to hear for you. Just hear from you. Just let us know that you're watching say hello Ask a question if you're so inclined

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Tonight we have a special guest brother Gary DeMar. Thank you for joining us Gary Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience?

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Oh Wow Right now I'm living in Marietta, Georgia, which is right outside of the

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Atlanta area. We've been here since 1979 after I graduated from seminary.

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I graduated from Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi and I'm Originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania went to college at New Mexico State University and Western Michigan University as well and First moved here.

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I Taught school for a couple of years and then I came on board at American Vision in 1981 full -time and I've been with American Vision since that time and I Did retire for a while, but that didn't last the person

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I turned it over to Didn't do a very good job of keeping it up and so I've been back at American Vision and Probably will die at American Vision.

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It looks like Well, we're are excited and thankful that you decided to join us and you're up with us late tonight

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Just want to let everybody know this we're competing with with the debate

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What This is much this is much more relevant exciting and Newsworthy than probably what you're gonna what you're gonna hear tonight, you know

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They'll the old phrase about how do you know when a lawyer is lying? He's he's moving his lips

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Well, the same thing goes with politicians. So anyway, you're you're absolutely right and and I'm thankful.

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Um, So I just want to give everybody that's watching and listening a little introduction to how

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I was introduced to to you It all started probably about eight years ago. I couldn't nail it down, but I watched the the roundtable discussion between John Piper Doug Wilson Hamilton and storms on eschatology and despite what some of my friends said they they thought that some of the other guys had a stronger argument from their perspective on eschatology

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That was that was the discussion where I was convinced of post -millennialism and What happens once you become convinced of something you begin to Google and and look up videos and Information and that's what

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I did. And of course you came up everywhere. And so I Watched as many videos debates that I could of yours as it would pertain to post -millennialism and I just I just devoured it and I appreciate it and love so much your teaching that that you've allowed to be online and it's helped me so much and what

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I found so fascinating about Watching all those videos and podcasts is that the the topic is eschatology

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But it's it turned out to be a lesson in hermeneutics because you won't you wanted to understand and you still want to understand from from what

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I've Hearing from you What does God say? What is he teaching us and that's what and you and you showed us how you come to the conclusions that you've come to through scripture so tonight

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The top of being hermeneutics. I simply just wanted to flip that and let the topic be hermeneutics and hopefully you'll give us some examples

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From eschatology as you're helping us understand because I feel like from hearing your podcast most recently

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You see a strong importance of a good hermeneutic and and hearing what

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God has to say Yeah, I look I think a lot of Christians When I became a

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Christian, I became Christian my senior year in college. You really really get into all of this.

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I Didn't know anything about anything. I was raised Roman Catholic went to Catholic school through the fifth grade

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Never really learned much about the Bible didn't know much about the Bible. So so it's my senior year in college

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I ran into a high school friend shared the gospel with me and you know

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I just I started reading the you know, the Bible particularly the New Testament the

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Matthews gospel in particular and This was the height of the late great planet

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Earth the late great planet Earth, you know came out in 1970 And it was a huge huge Best -seller throughout the 1970s and some estimates like 23 million copies of the late great planet

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Earth and so this was 1973 for me the book came out in 1970 and in that book you know how

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Lindsay he people would say he really never predicted this but when you read original edition the hardback page 54

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He goes to Matthew chapter 24 and he says this generation will not pass away and all these things take place generation is 40 years

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And you have you know, 40 1948 which is the nation again to the 40 years 1988 and the

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Rapture is going to take place before all that. I mean, I mean it's so as a new Christian I didn't know anything in order to deal with that type of argument

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And I think that's true with most most Christians They they generally generally hear what other people have to say about things because they believe rightly or wrongly that that person is

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More authoritative more studied in a topic and you you know, they wouldn't be lying to you about all this stuff

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So oftentimes we gravitate to various positions over time and we've never really developed a sound hermeneutic what we what we end up doing is

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A Kind of borrow the hermeneutic that has been that was used in order to bring us to the point where we are

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It's eschatology Was such a big deal in the 1970s and still is today I See the same arguments over and over and over and over again and yet with a sound hermeneutical model and basically hermeneutics

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Is the science and art of interpretation? but we've Most Christians just have never been taught how to do it and They are

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I think somewhat dependent on other people and then they end up having a an interpretive grid

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Passed down to them and now they see all these Bible passages in terms of that grid And they don't have an apparatus in order to evaluate particular texts

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Because they see the whole big picture as it was presented to them in terms of that hermeneutical model

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And I think I think that's where we are today. Not just in the area of eschatology, but I think in everything Yeah, no,

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I remember finding a book propping open a door in a church it was

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Norman Glass was chosen but free and I remember reading that book and being confused and thinking well Everybody's got the same views.

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So let me just go and find another book to help explain it Little did I know that I would pick up a book that was going to refute or seek to refute that one

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It opened me up to different interpretation of models. I just I had no idea. I had no clue that people could even

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Interpret the Bible differently or look at how to interpret it differently. It was just what didn't even cross my mind So I kind of resonate with what you're saying there people just adopt what they're given

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Because I mean really they how would they know any different unless they're yeah I'll search for us to it and they're and so when they when they hear my view on eschatology and The hermeneutic that it gives me that they're just they're they're they're flummox.

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They said wait. Wait a minute how can you say that and then I take them to a Particular text

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I said and give you an example. I was on a radio show this was a number of years ago and it was the fellow had me come on and talk about eschatology and So forth and this woman called in And talked about Israel becoming a nation again and the land promises haven't been fulfilled yet and so forth and so on and so I Said well, let me take you to Joshua chapter 21 and reject

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Joshua chapter 21, and I read it to her three times and She just still didn't get it and it's it's so specific it says all the promises that God made to Israel regarding the land hadn't had in fact been fulfilled and It's it's it's amazing to me for those people who claim to interpret the

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Bible literally That they make all kinds of excuses for that. Well, they didn't really they didn't really get all the land

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They got all the lands what it says and it says you got a first Kings chapter 4 It's very specific as to to the the the land

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Of Boundaries are very specific in terms of what was promised to Israel and some people will say well

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There were still there were still you know unbelievers in the land yes, there were unbelievers, but God had given them the land and The Bible also says that they are gonna be put in there

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They're gonna stay in that land to test you so so all the elements necessary to come to the conclusion that God had

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Fulfilled his promises regarding the land are specifically stated in the Bible and It's amazing what people try to do in order to get around it

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And the reason they they try to get around it because they've been given a an already developed

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Interpretive model that you now have to shoehorn everything into that model and you have to explain away passages that don't fit the model and I think that's that's where we are today and you just have to You know some people get it some people are willing to have their their their interpretive model

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You know test and I always tell people look you don't have to listen to me just and let's look at the text together and see what it says and Let's stick with what the text says

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And you don't know what a text means until you know what it first says and you can't make application to what a text says until you understand what it means and we're

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Most young people most most new Christians are never taught this and you don't need a seminary education in order to do this

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So, you know God God, you know Told a joke on me essentially is that you know, my background is is athletics

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That's that's what I did in high school and college and that's why I was in college and I was on a track and field

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Scholarship and that's that's what I did And it was kind of kind of funny that God would pick me in order to do this kind of thing

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Because I was not at all trained in any of this Prior to becoming a Christian in 1973 and so I always tell people

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I can do this you can do this It's not that difficult if you're given the know -how, you know the process on how to do it

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It takes time takes practice takes diligence It takes some research and all of that once you once you get it once you get the model of the interpretive model

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Then you start looking at passages and making the association with that model things start coming together for you

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Yeah, that's good. Um, so what are some of those fundamental principles of hermeneutics that They're gonna guide our interpretation of the

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Bible Start that process off for us. If say you got somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing

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Start them off. What are some of the basics that they they they need to Really drill down and make sure that they have in line.

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Otherwise, they're gonna go off in the weeds somewhere That's a good question. And I and you mentioned the roundtable discussion with Doug Wilson James Hamilton Sam Storms, and I guess

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John Piper. Was there anyone else? I think that was it. I was the host. Yeah, and I remember that and the

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Typically what happens is on the area of eschatology. Let's just let's just kind of start there you start

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People want to know what the book of Revelation is all about. Well, you don't start in the book of Revelation I mean, you know, come on and Yet, that's where people seem to gravitate towards or they become a new

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Christian. They start reading You start reading Bible prophecy because that's what's what's in the news and you know that particular discussion dealt with, you know

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The millennial age. Well, that's and that's that's way that's way down the road way down the road

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And you've got to develop you have to just look at you got to get to the basic fundamental principles with that and using eschatology as the model of this when

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I feel like I say when I first became a Christian I Start reading. I started started reading the gospel of Matthew a lot of people start with John I started

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Matthew and I came across passages that I just could not figure out Matthew chapter 10 verse 23 you will not go going through the cities of Israel until the

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Son of Man comes Wait a minute Just reading how Lindsay's late great planet earth and how

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Lindsay says well, this is something, you know, the coming of Jesus is going to be Sometime in the future.

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And so at that point I just it was a question mark. I don't know what that means I got the

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Matthew 16 27 28 There's some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in this kingdom

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Wait a minute. That didn't seem to that doesn't seem to fit either. I got the Matthew chapter 24

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This generation will not pass away into all these things take place And then I read earlier in Matthew's gospel that the phrase this generation

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Was used and it didn't make sense with what I was hearing from people like Al Lindsay's Helen's II and others and that was the that was the key to me because What I what

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I did is I compared what I had read in Earlier in Matthew's gospel the phrase this generation to see how it fit in that context and what it meant in that context and so when

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I got to Matthew chapter 24, I Saw this generation again, and it dawned on me that Wait a minute these two these these various places where this generation is used

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Why would why would the definition of that of those of that phrase change from the earlier use of it to the later you saw

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Especially since it's used so often in Matthew's gospel And so that that's the that's kind of the first thing, you know

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Look at the text. What does it say? And You know, I even go to some people and say tell me what it doesn't say that's and that's another thing

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Let's let's just stick with what the text says And then what you need to do is compare what you're reading in that particular context

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You don't even have to interpret at this point but see if you can find other other places in Scripture where that same brain is used and Maybe in these some of these other examples

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You will sit you can get a more clear understanding of what? Something means based upon something that's much clearer in other contexts

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And then when you start doing that you you're compiling in your your mind a

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You're the framework is starting to build a little bit you may not know exactly what's going on in the text

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But you have now asked the question Are these the same are they talking about the same thing should

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I interpret those in the same way? And that's not always the case But when you have so many examples of the use of this generation in Matthew's gospel

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Mark's gospel and Luke's Luke gospel you know, you really need to pay attention to that and And then what what will happen is is that you may go research somewhere and say look

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I really don't know how to figure this out. So I'm gonna go research somewhere and you pick up a book Like you picked up something by Norm Geisler or what's popular today?

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You know, it was the left the left behind series Mark Hitchcock And other writers and you and you look and you say oh those guys say well, we're really it doesn't this generation we don't mean this this generation remain it means this type of generation and Then the question

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I would ask is does the text say this type of generation or does it just say this generation?

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say so not only do you have to deal with what a text says but you need to deal with what a text doesn't say or Someone Tim LaHaye and Tommy Ice wrote a wrote a book and they say well it means this is the way it needs to be interpreted the generation that these signs will not pass away until all these things take place and Again, does that what the text says?

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No, no, the text doesn't say that all it says is this generation will not pass away and all these things take place So some people will actually add words to a particular text in order to make it fit fit their particular interpretive model, so The first thing you have to do is to actually just stick with what the text says

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Even if you don't even if you can't figure out what it means, that's always the first step what does the text say and then if you have any questions or Let me know at this point before I move on to the next point

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Oh You're you're doing just fine. I was just gonna say as you're talking about this

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I you know, you're totally right even if they do say this type of generation or whichever generation sees these signs

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Okay, let's go with that Practice a good hermeneutic exegete the text before that and you'll see you'll see who he's talking about yeah, so verse 30

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Matthew 24 34 this generation will not pass away and And verse 33 uses the second -person plural twice and I say to you

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And that's by the way, this is going to be the next the next point I say to you you

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You will see these things take place if the and You've got to wait a minute here.

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There's an audience. There's Jesus has a particular audience and in view here Who's he talking to who so, you know now you got to deal with the primary audience

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The but Jesus wasn't talking to us first He was talking to a particular audience in Matthew 24 and you have to ask yourself the question

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Who who were these people? Why does Jesus use the second -person plural? throughout

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And in fact if you want to really get into the context of all this

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You need to start with Matthew 21 because in Matthew 21 not only

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Do you find out who the audience is and that there is a particular audience to whom

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Jesus is speaking? But it tells you also where Jesus was talking to that audience and that is the

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Mount of Olives. So Matthew chapter 21 22 23 24 and 25

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And all takes place and the on the Mount of Olives and Then when you all see what you also will find when you when you read those those through those chapters it's

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This the second -person plural is used and then you get the chapter 21 when

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Jesus and there's another there are other people in this audience There as we as you go through you'll find that Jesus deals with the disciples starting the cycles and a smaller smaller group of Disciples, but there are also religious leaders if you go through chapter 21 and chapter 22 and chapter 23

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There were religious leaders there as well. So now you have a broader audience and the

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Second -person plural is used throughout and now you get a little key here

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If you find your context in chapter 21 when the religious leaders heard Jesus talking about what was going on They said he's talking about us

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So now now you have that you have the text of Scripture Telling you that what

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Jesus was saying to that particular primary audience It was understood by the religious leaders of the day that Jesus was talking about them not some future generation, but that particular generation and And then you this generation occurs back in Matthew 23 and then of course

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Matthew 24 so you've got what is the text? Actually, what does the text say?

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What doesn't it say? Are there other places in Scripture where you can find? phraseology that's similar to that to help you figure out the meaning in terms of the context that this is used and That that's that's the first that's the first The beginning of this and it's it's and by the way, we do this with everything

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We're always involved in hermeneutics You meet somebody for the first time you're looking at their there, you know

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Are they looking at directly you directly to you in the eye skirt? You know, they're looking over here

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They're looking over there kind of language that they use mannerisms that they have We're always involved in hermeneutics if you take a literature class, you know

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Shakespeare What does that mean? Well, you've got to know Shakespeare Language in order to determine what he might know and then the other thing you have to do which is another element of this

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Is there any history that you need to know in order to come to a better?

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understanding of why Jesus said what he what he said and So you put those elements together and you are on you are on the right track

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You're the beginning track of figuring out what the Bible has to say Now there are some things that are very hard just hard to understand

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Peter said that about Paul We know there, you know, he said some very difficult things. And so that's why

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I say don't start with the book of Revelation start with a place in Scripture again sticking with eschatology and you think about this so you have

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Matthew 10 23 Matthew 16 27 28 Matthew 21 22 23 24 25

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Mark 13 Luke 21 Luke 19 Luke 17. So there you have a bunch of Texts that are parallel with one another

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And in Jesus, you know what the prime, you know who the primary audience is You you've got ways to compare what's what's what those phrases mean using finding them elsewhere in Scripture Consistently, you don't go to sit down and deal with a millennial question first You deal with okay.

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I've got it. I've got to understand this context here What who is Jesus talking to and then the other element of this is why is he talking about this?

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Why them? And now that's a broader broader question that you put a question mark up.

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So I don't know why he's typically talking about Them why that generation and that comes down the road as you begin to study more why

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Jesus was dealing specifically with that generation and not a future generation and You know and it look it takes time one of the first books

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I read Remember this is back in the 1970s. This is

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Hal Lindsay late like great planet earth. This is before the whole left -behind thing And there

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I was a very new Christian and I was confused about Matthew 24, I you know, I didn't have the

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Equipment in order to handle it and I picked up a book that was

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Sitting on the library cart that the librarian was selling and it just sat on the spine

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Matthew 24 by a guy named Marcellus kick Kik and I read it and what

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I was learning in my hermeneutics class my interpret my interpretation class New Testament Interpretation let's compare scripture with scripture and that's what he did

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He went through Matthew 24 and took each one of those phrases and compared those phrases with other places in scripture paying a paying a close attention to how they were used elsewhere and Showed how

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Matthew 24 at least up to Matt verse 34 Was fulfilled before that generation passed away

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Yeah, and you know that kind of set me on the you know on the kind of the path of dealing with this so and let me just say

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The reason I got involved in the whole eschatology debate was because I was I'm really a worldview guy

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I want to know how the Bible applies to every area of life and I wrote a series of books in the 1980s called

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God and government I wanted to know what God's government was like and how it applied to self -government family government

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Church government and civil government and so forth and I wrote these three volumes called

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God and government and when I went out to speak on this topic and inevitably that you

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Someone would say Gary. Why are you why are you talking about? This all this because Jesus is coming soon.

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All the signs are there for the coming of Jesus And why are we wasting our time?

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Dealing with politics and economics and education and welfare and foreign affairs and art and music

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Why are we bothering with this? This is 19. This is 1982 1980 so 1984 when the second volume came out and I started speaking on it.

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That was 40 years ago And people are still asking the same question. And so the reason

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I got involved in eschatology Was because I had to answer the objection People who saying we're living in the last days

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Jesus is coming soon why are we wasting our time dealing with the issues of the day because it's you know, the

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Antichrist is going to show up and he's gonna make a Covenant with with the Jews and the temple is going to be rebuilt

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You got the red heifers and you've got the breaks the covenant with with with Israel.

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There's gonna be the slaughter of the Jews You went on and on, you know microchips and barcodes and QR codes now

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And I had to deal with all that and that's why Yeah, and you're right once somebody grasped the that the key one of the keys to biblical interpretation is the scripture

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Interprets itself use the Bible to interpret itself once somebody grabs hold of that It will set a person on fire to deeper study whether it be eschatology or anything else

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Yeah, and it's you know, look and it's it's so it's It's so intuitive What other what other book would you use to interpret the

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Bible other than the Bible itself? That's right Yeah, it's 66 books There's a lot of cross references.

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I mean you can you get any Bible today? You see all the cross references and there are many many more than what you see in your own

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Bible And there's a lot, you know, the Bible talks about the testimony of two or two or three witnesses

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And the Bible is a witness to itself. But it also Says hey,

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I'm gonna give you a bunch of witnesses on this and this is on terms of eschatology There's lots of witnesses here.

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Like I said Matthew Mark and Luke John not so much you're given you can make do all these comparisons and And you you'll almost say well wait a minute there's differences in Luke Luke 21 and Matthew chapter 20 24

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And you know, there are differences and you know that there are differences in the birth narratives and more and Matthew and Luke as well

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So what you do is like a deck of cards, you know you separate them and then you're gonna shuffle them and you shuffle and you bring them together and they make a

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More full picture and Luke Luke is dealing with it with a different audience than Matthew is dealing with talking about the same subject, but they each are emphasizing different things and a friend of mine

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Otto Scott, I don't know if you've ever heard of Otto Scott He was a friend of RJ rush duty became a

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Christian very late in life And he tells a story about how I think it was his granddaughter. It might have been his daughter came up to him

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Wanted him wanted to read the Bible to you know to to her and and Otto Scott was an investigative journalist and as he read through the

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Gospels, he found these differences in the gospel accounts and He said it was the differences in the accounts that convinced him of their authenticity

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Because as an investigative Journalist when you find three people giving given this giving the same story with all the specific details one on top of the other you get suspicious that they collaborated with one another and So it was the differences in the gospel accounts that convinced him that the

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Bible was in fact the Word of God Because that his investigative journalism taught him that's what you expect when you've got three different people

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Looking at the same event, but given it but giving different Perspectives on it because they were looking at it a little different little different area

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So, you know the and these this just comes this comes with with time So let me

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I don't know if you what you have anything else you want to want to do So, let me take you to the next step in all of this

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And let me to get some better light here Yeah, those of you who are listening to this for the

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For the first time and maybe later on Go to the let's look. Let's look at the book of Revelation for a moment since everybody likes the book of Revelation Go there and I I did a podcast on this

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That will will drop on September 20th. I have a I Have to got to go and have an operation have to get my thyroid

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Removed I some cancerous nodules on it. So I've been working Working ahead in order to I don't know what my space throat is gonna be like after that So I'm trying to get a head on it

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So I've done something a little more elaborate than what I'm gonna do here and this particular person went to Revelation chapter 3 verse 10

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Now You don't start you don't start three chapters in to figure out what's going on in a book especially the

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Bible And so this is look before we get to 310. We want to look at Revelation chapter 1 verse 1 now

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Those who are listening to this may have an already scoped out developed eschatological view and What I'm gonna what

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I'm going to say at this point may mess you up But we're following.

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Let's let the text speak for itself right a revelation chapter 1 the revelation of Jesus Christ, which

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God gave him to show to his bond servants the things which must shortly take place

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And he sent and communicated it by his angel to his bond servant John Who bore witness to the

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Word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ even to all that he saw?

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Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it

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The time is near So right off the bat, there are two time indicators shortly

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Near later We'll find the word quickly used and these time words appear at the very last chapter of the book of Revelation so to me

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You're stuck The book of Revelation is describing things that were near and we're going to happen shortly

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To the people who first read the book of Revelation now a lot of people who have probably you know in the church and they've heard

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The sermons on the book of Revelation and they've heard all this stuff about book of Revelations Why do you say that the book of Revelation is written?

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1895 near you know to God a Thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years.

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And so this near could really mean far shortly You know you I heard all the excuses and but if you stick to the text

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Shortly near and here's what I would tell people to do before we go any any further in this

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Get a concordance out and look up every use of near and shortly used in the

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New Testament and see how they are used elsewhere and So the question you have to ask is would

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God change his definition of near and shortly? When on every other occasion in which near and shortly are used

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Always mean guess what near and shortly and So right at the beginning we're told that the events in the book of Revelation are

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Shortly to take place because the time is near now at that point you say well, wait a minute How can you say their stars are going to fall from heaven?

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There's a dragon. There's a giant woman There are these beasts of beasts the two witnesses.

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There's bad, you know, the Babylon's Sodom and Egypt Jezebel and all this other stuff in the book of Revelation and I say guess what?

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Near and shortly are telling you that those things need to be interpreted in terms of those time indicators and you've got to figure out

35:35

Why they were revealed to John in the way that they were revealed and I'm going to guarantee you if you're a new

35:41

Christian You're not going to be able to figure that out very early But this this forces you to at least evaluate the text of Scripture So when other people come and teach on this doctrine you're always in the back of your mind say

35:56

How is he interpreting the use of near and shortly in? Book of Revelation, how does he deal with that?

36:06

I want to know that first and then You can you can go on.

36:11

So let's let's just let's just go on a little bit here to Revelation chapter 3 And the person who was the was was talking about this

36:22

Was Maintaining that what you read in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 refers to events yet in our future and First thing

36:35

I I noticed here and everybody should notice that beginning with verse 7 Says this is the message to the church in Philadelphia not

36:43

Philadelphia PA or Philadelphia, Mississippi Philadelphia of that that time

36:48

So now you're reading this and you're saying wait a minute This is a message primary audience to that church at that time and we just read time is near these things must shortly take place and And then you

37:05

I'm only gonna there's lots of questions people would have but so let's look at since he started with verse 10

37:12

So this is a little deeper dive into all of this because sometimes translations aren't

37:19

Aren't aren't that great? And you've got to go a little beyond and there are a lot of helps online

37:26

Will help you with this. So let me just read this. This is because you oh

37:34

Wait a minute an audience reference You you or them you well primary audience

37:41

This is them you not us you Because you have kept the word of my perseverance.

37:49

I also will keep you from the hour of testing so who's the who's who's this talking to Talking to this this group this people

38:02

Christians in the Church of Philadelphia so when they got their copy of What we the apocalypse that is really the title of this

38:11

Who do you what do you think they were thinking they read this who was who do they think the you was referring to to some

38:19

Group of people in the distant future or to them You know the answer to that.

38:25

That's right. It would have This is talking to us. Yeah Because you have kept the word of my perseverance.

38:32

I also will keep you from the hour of testing Now this is

38:39

I'm just gonna add this stuff and I don't want to complicate the two things too much for us, but You go back to Matthew chapter 24.

38:47

Jesus says he doesn't know the day or the hour He knew tells he told us what generation it was their generation but he didn't tell them the day or the hour and That is at the very specific time.

39:00

This was going to happen That's why you needed to pay attention to these signs So because you have kept the word of my perseverance

39:06

I also will keep you from the hour of testing now listen to this That hour which is about To come on the whole world test those who dwell upon the earth

39:20

Think of that That is about to take place and it's an interesting word here about that's it's the

39:28

Greek word mellow And it's not always translated In a lot of translations, you don't know it's there but on this particular occasion,

39:37

I'm reading from the New American Standard it's telling us that it's mellow and mellow means about to so if You're going to maintain that this refers to something in the distant future

39:51

You got to explain Mellow here and this translation the translation is right.

39:58

It's about to take place so About to can't mean 2 ,000 years.

40:03

We have the audience Talking to them. We have about to we got the timing and Now we have to do a little deep dive here because someone will say wait a minute said

40:14

It's about to come upon the whole world So are you saying that the whole world the whole wide world the globe planet

40:24

Earth? This happened to planet Earth Good question The problem that here is the translation of the

40:34

Greek word that is used here What would you expect when it's translated world?

40:42

What would you expect a Greek word would be you don't even have to know Greek? You might make a guess

40:47

The Greek word typically is cosmos Yes, but by the way, even if you were cosmos it wouldn't necessarily mean the whole whole planet

40:58

But the word that's used here is and you wouldn't know this unless You you knew a little

41:04

Greek and you don't need to be a Greek scholar to know at least a little bit of Greek You can go online to a

41:10

Bible hub. I use Bible hub and just type in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 every

41:15

Greek word and I'll give you the translation of the Greek word and You find it the

41:21

Greek word here like too many At which the prefix oikos means house and like you many typically is

41:31

As often translated as inhabited earth The Roman Empire.

41:37

I don't want I don't like that even even inherited earth is not as Definitive as I would like.

41:44

I think it's more of geographical boundary limited geographical boundary

41:50

And let me give you an example of this Luke chapter 2 verse 1 and so now so now what

41:57

I'm going to do is I'll get this Greek word Boy, too many and I find out it's it's that word.

42:03

I'm gonna look for other verses in the Bible where oikos many is used and One of the first places it's used is in Luke chapter 2 verse 1

42:14

And I remember when I was a child I was watching a on TV the

42:21

Essentially Christmas story with stop -action and I think it was Alexander Scorby who quoted the loop loop

42:30

Chapter 2 verse 1 that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole world be taxed now

42:37

What word is that? What's what word is there the word that's used there is way too many. It's not cosmos and It makes sense because as much as the

42:47

Roman Empire Would like to tax the whole world Like every politician would like to tax the whole world it's

42:57

Rome couldn't tax the whole world. It could only tax what was in their Empire unless they conquered more land

43:03

So the Greek word oikos many oikos many makes perfect sense there

43:08

And so what is described in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 isn't something's gonna happen over the whole world

43:16

Sometime in the distant future for something that was going to happen to the people of that day and It was it was going to be limited and that's exactly what you find in say

43:29

Matthew chapter 24 14 Where it talks about the gospel must be preached in the whole world

43:36

And then the end will come the end what end are we talking about there? And It's the

43:43

Greek word oikos many again Not the whole wide world, but that particular world and then you can make comparisons that did the gospel.

43:51

I was asked Question what would convince you that the gospel had been preached in?

43:59

Throughout the whole world at that time what would convince you that it already took place and people are kind of stymied by that question and I said look, the only thing that would convince me of that is if the

44:11

Bible told me that so, you know the gospel Colossians 126 and 123 says that the gospel had been preached to listen to this every creature under heaven, which is obviously a little

44:25

Hyperbole but the had the gospel been preached throughout the Roman Empire before that generation passed away because the word

44:33

Greek word oikos many is used there and I would say absolutely Yes, yeah read read

44:40

Paul's got all his letter to the Romans Where was he planning to go? Is he saying to go to Spain taking the gospel to Spain?

44:48

We know that the gospel hit the British Isles in that time So throughout the whole

44:53

Roman Empire that gospel had in fact been preached as a witness to the nations and so so So there you go.

45:02

That's a that's a deeper dive Get those basics audience relevance prime be a primary primary audience the timing the timing factor

45:13

Comparing scripture with scripture. How does this generation? How is it used elsewhere? Once you kind of get that and you come across passages like this you got it

45:22

You got it. You have to be curious enough. I have to be curious enough to Do a little bit more investigation on on this

45:32

Yeah, and That's what I try to get people to do. I just say look See what it says and a lot of people don't like what

45:41

I what I come across and because they have a system That they're comfortable with and they think it's the system

45:48

That's the one that just figures out everything but I come in there and just ask a couple of questions and they're there

45:54

They get irate over at all, but as you can tell

46:00

People do in fact do the research on all this and they Get out of the trap

46:06

Having to interpret the Bible by someone else's grid and that's what you want to be able to do. Yeah well, we want to be respectful of you and About 15 more minutes.

46:17

Well, I give us an hour Dan If you just want to pick if we can get two more questions in Dan If you want to pick one from the list and then

46:23

I'll pick one more how about I pick one that's not on the list because I Got it just it came up in my head.

46:30

I think it'd be good. Um, I Mean, I'm taking some seminary classes right now.

46:36

One of them. I'm at a dispensational school And I'm taking a class on Zachariah So I'm I'm hearing like all this stuff that you're saying is it's extremely relevant to what

46:48

I'm experiencing Seeing through through this class right now One of the things that I'm noticing is that they put a strong emphasis on the intent of the author and I think that's a good it's a good person to have but I often see that they will

47:10

Tend to ignore ignore or not maybe think through or maybe when it's convenient,

47:15

I really don't know that the ultimate author of Scripture is the

47:21

Holy Spirit who can choose to have things be said in the Old Testament and then Interpreted in a new light in the

47:27

New Testament sure, and and so can you just speak to that a little bit about about the importance of of the intent of the author and Especially the the ultimate author being the

47:38

Holy Spirit and putting the whole of Scripture together Yeah, I mean, that's a very good question

47:43

One of the things we have to keep in mind is that the Holy Spirit is is

47:51

Communicating to human beings And happen and the

47:56

Holy Spirit has to communicate to those human beings in words and phrases and so forth that they understand if if the

48:04

Holy Spirit were speaking maybe in Some sort of heavenly language.

48:10

We wouldn't know we wouldn't know what he was saying but so the Holy Spirit is is Speaking to us in words that we we can understand and we should be able to understand what he's you know, what what he's saying and So, I don't have any

48:27

I don't have any problem with that But I would say that Zach Zachariah is a much more.

48:33

It's kind of like the book of Revelation It's much more difficult book. You don't want to start people always want to take me to Zachariah 14

48:41

You know and I said look I'll be glad to go through Zachariah 14 with you verse verse by verse if you want to But that isn't where I would

48:50

I would you know start with with someone but God is going to communicate to us in terms of Language we can understand in fact on online today this issue, you know came up about The time the time texts and people who go to 2nd

49:09

Peter chapter 3 and says, you know what one day with the Lord is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day basically took that verse and Try to apply that verse to words like near shortly and quickly

49:25

The and I'm thinking to myself Well, I wasn't thinking to myself because this is what I told him

49:31

So what you can what you're saying here is that you you're taking something that is

49:37

The prerogative of God in terms of time and you're making that prerogative interpretive in terms of us

49:46

And so if God is trying to and as God is trying to reveal something to us

49:51

He's going to reveal things to us in language that we understand and language that is used

49:58

Consistently through his word you can't just all of a sudden say now well time with God is different So well time with God is different, but time with us is not different and so I Responded to this guy, but what

50:13

I would do and it's what I've done. I would look up every use of the word near and shortly and quickly in the

50:21

New Testament and see how they are used elsewhere and You can't just say well prophetically it's used in a different way.

50:29

No, that's not the way it works the reason You're you're kind of stuck with those definitions is so you don't go off on Reinterpret things and worse worse your view upon what the text has to say

50:42

So again, Holy Spirit communicating to us the Holy Spirit is using human beings or to make communication is using words that in languages

50:53

That we can we can understand And so I mean,

50:59

I think it's the right emphasis. So I don't have any problem with that at all It's just you need to understand. What does that mean?

51:04

Are you saying, you know what the Holy Spirit means by this? How do you know? well the only way you know is let's look at Scripture and see what the

51:12

Holy Spirit because if if 2nd 2nd Timothy 3 16 and 17 are

51:19

Of any value all scripture is God breathed But it read the second second verse of that that is for us

51:29

That is for us to apply And so you can't you got it's

51:35

God's Breath in terms of the words that he's given to us But he's giving those to us so that we might use them and apply them in a way that we understand

51:44

We understand that language So I think that's a very good point it just needs to be understood problem.

51:51

Yeah, I think this last question will be very helpful and Interesting interesting to our audience and I know it's interesting to me you have different in hermetical approaches

52:03

You've got a literal allegorical historical critical Figurative all this different types of language in Scripture and you touched on it earlier

52:12

So Once you get to those those places where this the stars are falling you have a woman and the moon

52:20

Out in space and you have a lamb beast and a sea beast all these different creatures with multiple different heads

52:26

Once you get to those places It begins to blow your mind. What do I do with all those passages?

52:32

So maybe you could touch on that and that will be a last question Well, let's the word literal means according to the literature

52:38

We understand we think of literal as that's a that's a real woman out in space

52:45

Standing on the moon and a crown with twelve stars and the Sun, you know draped as a garment around her

52:51

So that that's got you know, literal would mean The way it's often understood today that there's a real woman out there somewhere

52:58

That but that's not what literal means literal means according the literature so when you

53:05

When you look at something like the book of Revelation you have to understand that that the liturgy the the

53:12

What what we're reading there is in is is in symbol Signage in fact, that's the that's if you go back to Revelation chapter 1.

53:22

It's what is signified signify and But you but when you read

53:28

Revelation chapters 1 2 & 3 There's kind of a mix of historical issues because you find in verse 9 of Revelation chapter 1 that John says he is a fellow partaker in the tribulation and the kingdom so that's that's that's a little different piece of literature than you would find with this giant woman out in space somewhere or these beasts in Revelation 13 of sea beast and a land beast in the number 666 and all of that So you have to pay it you have to pay attention to what kind of literature it is and that's look it's not always easy

54:07

To do that. There's a lot of hyperbole in the Bible a lot of exaggeration But again, if you start comparing

54:15

The language with you know elsewhere in Scripture and how it's used for example

54:21

You look at Matthew chapter 24 21 about the great tribulation or was or will be and People say well that tribulation hasn't happened yet.

54:31

Yet. If you go to Ezekiel chapter 5 verse 9 the same language is used there And it talks about King Kings of Israel.

54:38

It says well this particular King was the greatest there Whoever was and ever will be and yet there's a king that comes on later on it was greater than that King You say well, okay

54:47

Understand that this is this is hyperbole and it's being used in such a way to emphasize something and we do the same thing in our own language

54:56

And you know like the word all or every Who was it? Who was at the basketball game last night?

55:03

Everyone was dead Everyone well, you know what I mean?

55:08

Yeah, we do know what you mean So the same thing in the Bible you will find you know

55:14

Figures of speaking similes and metaphors or some allegory you see that in in the book of Galatians at Galatians chapter chapter 4

55:23

And again, it takes it takes practice to do this. This is what Hebrews chapter 5 is all about We have to have our senses train

55:32

Concerned good and evil we do that through practice. And so practicing going through Scripture and doing this it starts

55:41

You start getting better at it you start developing kind of a literary Mind in order to see these.

55:49

Oh, I saw that there. Let me look go back and check on that So that means you kind of have to have a broad knowledge of the

55:55

Bible in order to do You know hermeneutics justice And by using this method you're not dismissing

56:05

What God has to say I feel like sometimes those who? Won't to interpret and then come down on us who interpret it differently and use the word literally like you were talking about earlier

56:16

We take the Bible literally We're not Dismissing what

56:22

God has to say we are trying to understand and hear what God has to say Yeah, how he had to say it now

56:28

I just think you know when you start talking because you can always someone says why interpret the Bible literally and you say, okay

56:35

So there is a book of Revelation has a dragon with a tail and he throws throws the stars down to the earth

56:42

So is there a literal dragon there and he has a tail that throws him down to the earth? Well, no, but you know that I mean, come on, that's you don't take that literally, you know well,

56:54

I'm asking you a question about that and And you so he throws the stars down to the earth and he does that in chapter 6 and then

57:05

I think again in chapter 12 you've got stars that are Falling hit the earth like like ripe figs and so forth.

57:14

And I said I asked the question are those those those physical stars

57:19

Falling down to the earth and they said oh, yeah, that's gonna happen in the future. You see that hasn't happened yet I said really so in chapter 6

57:28

There's a dragon he's gonna let's just say that's that's a figure that's a figure of speech That he's just a symbol, but those are real stars.

57:36

He's gonna throw them down the earth Is it really so one star hit the earth? The earth the earth would be completely obliterate

57:44

But a whole bunch of them hitting the earth What about that and if that that's supposed to happen in chapter 6

57:52

How can it happen again in chapter in chapter 12, how can there be a chapter 7

57:59

And so, you know, but people will go to extremes And they will say what they are our meteorites your meteorites that are gonna do they're gonna do this.

58:09

Well You know some meteor hits the earth one Devastation supposedly the dinosaurs were killed off because of that And so there is a little bit of reasoning that you have to do with this as well

58:23

But I don't want to dismiss some real, you know Some seemingly unreasonable things in Scripture like raising people

58:31

Jesus raising people from the dead That's not a metaphor or when Jesus was raised from the dead. That's that's not a metaphor

58:38

And we and we are given kind of Evidential reasons for that.

58:43

So there's you know, Jesus doesn't say you just just believe me But he you know, he he appears and you know the story of Thomas and so forth

58:53

So, you know you I don't I don't want people to think well because it seems

58:59

Reasonable for that to happen that it didn't happen But I think the context kind of tells us something when you know

59:05

Moses saw this burning bush. What did he do? Moses Investigated he went walked around that he looked at it

59:15

He saw he saw something So so that the context there is telling you that he saw something completely out of accord with what reality is or you know, there was the

59:30

Opening up of the red the Red Sea. There's the same thing. You've got this you have this evidentiary

59:38

Evidences here in order to tell you that this look this is something that that hasn't happened before But the

59:45

Bible is putting this not in the Dragon's tail throwing down stars to the earth

59:50

There are people there who witness this and walk through so you have to look everything every every situation and every context to kind of get an idea of You know, what's the best way to understand there?

01:00:02

Yeah, but here's a speech, you know Hey, you got to take the log out of your own eye

01:00:09

You can't fit it a log in your eye and it's obviously Jesus there is teaching by analogy and he's using hyperbole

01:00:16

And again that that takes that takes some practice in order to do that. Yeah Well, it's fitting that we we talk about Christ and Scripture and scripture interpretation is not only interesting

01:00:32

But it is beautiful to those whom he has saved and those who have received the

01:00:37

Holy Spirit and that's the most important thing That's what this whole Bible is about. It's about Jesus Christ and our last call to those who would watch or listen is to remember

01:00:49

James chapter 2 verse 10 if you keep the whole law and you stumble even at one point you're guilty of it all and So we've all sinned.

01:00:57

We've all fallen short of God's glory We need a Savior we need a rescuer and that one is

01:01:04

God's Son whom he sent and he lived a sinless life He died on our behalf took upon our sins that he didn't deserve but we deserve he took upon himself died

01:01:16

He was buried resurrected. He ascended and now he sits at the right hand of the Father and He calls all men everywhere to repent so that we would call you tonight and whenever you watch or listen to this call you with that same call to repent of your sins and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and This too will not only become interesting but beautiful to you as you learn more about your

01:01:40

Savior Jesus Christ Dan, would you mind to close this in prayer? Let me say one thing You just you just proved the point

01:01:48

Everything that you quoted there turning and pointing people to Jesus Christ were specific texts that actually say that yeah, and that's

01:01:59

There it is. I Remember Archie Parrish who worked for D.

01:02:05

James Kennedy down at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. We became a new new Christian And he didn't know much he didn't he didn't know much but he had become a new

01:02:14

Christian He started presenting the gospel to people and he and the people would ask him quick questions

01:02:19

And he said I don't know that but all I do know is if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be saved

01:02:25

Maybe what about this? So I don't know the answer to that. But if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved

01:02:31

Amen, so I you you're absolutely right what weird what we've discussed is kind of an intramural debate and if you don't you don't start with the person and work of Jesus Christ in a transform transformative nature of what

01:02:47

Jesus came to do Not none of this none of this makes sense or it was even relevant in the long terms of things

01:02:55

That's right. Praise the Lord Dan Yeah Dear Heavenly Father.

01:03:01

Thank you for this conversation. Pray that as we look at our Bibles we would remember you are the author that we would look into them diligently knowing that you have spoken to us

01:03:10

We pray for our guest. He's having some surgery on the next few weeks We pray that that would go well that he would be well taken care of by the doctors

01:03:18

He would heal nicely afterwards. I would thank you for all that you've done in the world and we pray that you will continue to To work in us how you would have things done in Christ.

01:03:28

Let me pray. Amen. Amen. Mr. Gary tomorrow we appreciate your time so very much and Give me a give me a call.

01:03:37

Hopefully I'll be able to talk again after the 12th So we'll see fantastic and thank you all for watching and listening and as always remember that Jesus is

01:03:46

King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.