Truth in Love Special Interview- Gary DeMar

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. We're so happy you're with us tonight

We have a special guest Gary DeMar and we're gonna be talking about hermeneutics stick with us

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Tonight we have a special guest brother Gary DeMar. Thank you for joining us Gary Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience?

Oh Wow Right now I'm living in Marietta, Georgia, which is right outside of the

Atlanta area. We've been here since 1979 after I graduated from seminary.

I graduated from Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi and I'm Originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania went to college at New Mexico State University and Western Michigan University as well and First moved here.

I Taught school for a couple of years and then I came on board at American Vision in 1981 full -time and I've been with American Vision since that time and I Did retire for a while, but that didn't last the person

I turned it over to Didn't do a very good job of keeping it up and so I've been back at American Vision and Probably will die at American Vision.

It looks like Well, we're are excited and thankful that you decided to join us and you're up with us late tonight

Just want to let everybody know this we're competing with with the debate

What This is much this is much more relevant exciting and Newsworthy than probably what you're gonna what you're gonna hear tonight, you know

They'll the old phrase about how do you know when a lawyer is lying? He's he's moving his lips

Well, the same thing goes with politicians. So anyway, you're you're absolutely right and and I'm thankful.

Um, So I just want to give everybody that's watching and listening a little introduction to how

I was introduced to to you It all started probably about eight years ago. I couldn't nail it down, but I watched the the roundtable discussion between John Piper Doug Wilson Hamilton and storms on eschatology and despite what some of my friends said they they thought that some of the other guys had a stronger argument from their perspective on eschatology

That was that was the discussion where I was convinced of post -millennialism and What happens once you become convinced of something you begin to Google and and look up videos and Information and that's what

I did. And of course you came up everywhere. And so I Watched as many videos debates that I could of yours as it would pertain to post -millennialism and I just I just devoured it and I appreciate it and love so much your teaching that that you've allowed to be online and it's helped me so much and what

I found so fascinating about Watching all those videos and podcasts is that the the topic is eschatology

But it's it turned out to be a lesson in hermeneutics because you won't you wanted to understand and you still want to understand from from what

I've Hearing from you What does God say? What is he teaching us and that's what and you and you showed us how you come to the conclusions that you've come to through scripture so tonight

The top of being hermeneutics. I simply just wanted to flip that and let the topic be hermeneutics and hopefully you'll give us some examples

From eschatology as you're helping us understand because I feel like from hearing your podcast most recently

You see a strong importance of a good hermeneutic and and hearing what

God has to say Yeah, I look I think a lot of Christians When I became a

Christian, I became Christian my senior year in college. You really really get into all of this.

I Didn't know anything about anything. I was raised Roman Catholic went to Catholic school through the fifth grade

Never really learned much about the Bible didn't know much about the Bible. So so it's my senior year in college

I ran into a high school friend shared the gospel with me and you know

I just I started reading the you know, the Bible particularly the New Testament the

Matthews gospel in particular and This was the height of the late great planet

Earth the late great planet Earth, you know came out in 1970 And it was a huge huge Best -seller throughout the 1970s and some estimates like 23 million copies of the late great planet

Earth and so this was 1973 for me the book came out in 1970 and in that book you know how

Lindsay he people would say he really never predicted this but when you read original edition the hardback page 54

He goes to Matthew chapter 24 and he says this generation will not pass away and all these things take place generation is 40 years

And you have you know, 40 1948 which is the nation again to the 40 years 1988 and the

Rapture is going to take place before all that. I mean, I mean it's so as a new Christian I didn't know anything in order to deal with that type of argument

And I think that's true with most most Christians They they generally generally hear what other people have to say about things because they believe rightly or wrongly that that person is

More authoritative more studied in a topic and you you know, they wouldn't be lying to you about all this stuff

So oftentimes we gravitate to various positions over time and we've never really developed a sound hermeneutic what we what we end up doing is

A Kind of borrow the hermeneutic that has been that was used in order to bring us to the point where we are

It's eschatology Was such a big deal in the 1970s and still is today I See the same arguments over and over and over and over again and yet with a sound hermeneutical model and basically hermeneutics

Is the science and art of interpretation? but we've Most Christians just have never been taught how to do it and They are

I think somewhat dependent on other people and then they end up having a an interpretive grid

Passed down to them and now they see all these Bible passages in terms of that grid And they don't have an apparatus in order to evaluate particular texts

Because they see the whole big picture as it was presented to them in terms of that hermeneutical model

And I think I think that's where we are today. Not just in the area of eschatology, but I think in everything Yeah, no,

I remember finding a book propping open a door in a church it was

Norman Glass was chosen but free and I remember reading that book and being confused and thinking well Everybody's got the same views.

So let me just go and find another book to help explain it Little did I know that I would pick up a book that was going to refute or seek to refute that one

It opened me up to different interpretation of models. I just I had no idea. I had no clue that people could even

Interpret the Bible differently or look at how to interpret it differently. It was just what didn't even cross my mind So I kind of resonate with what you're saying there people just adopt what they're given

Because I mean really they how would they know any different unless they're yeah I'll search for us to it and they're and so when they when they hear my view on eschatology and The hermeneutic that it gives me that they're just they're they're they're flummox.

They said wait. Wait a minute how can you say that and then I take them to a Particular text

I said and give you an example. I was on a radio show this was a number of years ago and it was the fellow had me come on and talk about eschatology and So forth and this woman called in And talked about Israel becoming a nation again and the land promises haven't been fulfilled yet and so forth and so on and so I Said well, let me take you to Joshua chapter 21 and reject

Joshua chapter 21, and I read it to her three times and She just still didn't get it and it's it's so specific it says all the promises that God made to Israel regarding the land hadn't had in fact been fulfilled and It's it's it's amazing to me for those people who claim to interpret the

Bible literally That they make all kinds of excuses for that. Well, they didn't really they didn't really get all the land

They got all the lands what it says and it says you got a first Kings chapter 4 It's very specific as to to the the the land

Of Boundaries are very specific in terms of what was promised to Israel and some people will say well

There were still there were still you know unbelievers in the land yes, there were unbelievers, but God had given them the land and The Bible also says that they are gonna be put in there

They're gonna stay in that land to test you so so all the elements necessary to come to the conclusion that God had

Fulfilled his promises regarding the land are specifically stated in the Bible and It's amazing what people try to do in order to get around it

And the reason they they try to get around it because they've been given a an already developed

Interpretive model that you now have to shoehorn everything into that model and you have to explain away passages that don't fit the model and I think that's that's where we are today and you just have to You know some people get it some people are willing to have their their their interpretive model

You know test and I always tell people look you don't have to listen to me just and let's look at the text together and see what it says and Let's stick with what the text says

And you don't know what a text means until you know what it first says and you can't make application to what a text says until you understand what it means and we're

Most young people most most new Christians are never taught this and you don't need a seminary education in order to do this

So, you know God God, you know Told a joke on me essentially is that you know, my background is is athletics

That's that's what I did in high school and college and that's why I was in college and I was on a track and field

Scholarship and that's that's what I did And it was kind of kind of funny that God would pick me in order to do this kind of thing

Because I was not at all trained in any of this Prior to becoming a Christian in 1973 and so I always tell people

I can do this you can do this It's not that difficult if you're given the know -how, you know the process on how to do it

It takes time takes practice takes diligence It takes some research and all of that once you once you get it once you get the model of the interpretive model

Then you start looking at passages and making the association with that model things start coming together for you

Yeah, that's good. Um, so what are some of those fundamental principles of hermeneutics that They're gonna guide our interpretation of the

Bible Start that process off for us. If say you got somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing

Start them off. What are some of the basics that they they they need to Really drill down and make sure that they have in line.

Otherwise, they're gonna go off in the weeds somewhere That's a good question. And I and you mentioned the roundtable discussion with Doug Wilson James Hamilton Sam Storms, and I guess

John Piper. Was there anyone else? I think that was it. I was the host. Yeah, and I remember that and the

Typically what happens is on the area of eschatology. Let's just let's just kind of start there you start

People want to know what the book of Revelation is all about. Well, you don't start in the book of Revelation I mean, you know, come on and Yet, that's where people seem to gravitate towards or they become a new

Christian. They start reading You start reading Bible prophecy because that's what's what's in the news and you know that particular discussion dealt with, you know

The millennial age. Well, that's and that's that's way that's way down the road way down the road

And you've got to develop you have to just look at you got to get to the basic fundamental principles with that and using eschatology as the model of this when

I feel like I say when I first became a Christian I Start reading. I started started reading the gospel of Matthew a lot of people start with John I started

Matthew and I came across passages that I just could not figure out Matthew chapter 10 verse 23 you will not go going through the cities of Israel until the

Son of Man comes Wait a minute Just reading how Lindsay's late great planet earth and how

Lindsay says well, this is something, you know, the coming of Jesus is going to be Sometime in the future.

And so at that point I just it was a question mark. I don't know what that means I got the

Matthew 16 27 28 There's some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in this kingdom

Wait a minute. That didn't seem to that doesn't seem to fit either. I got the Matthew chapter 24

This generation will not pass away into all these things take place And then I read earlier in Matthew's gospel that the phrase this generation

Was used and it didn't make sense with what I was hearing from people like Al Lindsay's Helen's II and others and that was the that was the key to me because What I what

I did is I compared what I had read in Earlier in Matthew's gospel the phrase this generation to see how it fit in that context and what it meant in that context and so when

I got to Matthew chapter 24, I Saw this generation again, and it dawned on me that Wait a minute these two these these various places where this generation is used

Why would why would the definition of that of those of that phrase change from the earlier use of it to the later you saw

Especially since it's used so often in Matthew's gospel And so that that's the that's kind of the first thing, you know

Look at the text. What does it say? And You know, I even go to some people and say tell me what it doesn't say that's and that's another thing

Let's let's just stick with what the text says And then what you need to do is compare what you're reading in that particular context

You don't even have to interpret at this point but see if you can find other other places in Scripture where that same brain is used and Maybe in these some of these other examples

You will sit you can get a more clear understanding of what? Something means based upon something that's much clearer in other contexts

And then when you start doing that you you're compiling in your your mind a

You're the framework is starting to build a little bit you may not know exactly what's going on in the text

But you have now asked the question Are these the same are they talking about the same thing should

I interpret those in the same way? And that's not always the case But when you have so many examples of the use of this generation in Matthew's gospel

Mark's gospel and Luke's Luke gospel you know, you really need to pay attention to that and And then what what will happen is is that you may go research somewhere and say look

I really don't know how to figure this out. So I'm gonna go research somewhere and you pick up a book Like you picked up something by Norm Geisler or what's popular today?

You know, it was the left the left behind series Mark Hitchcock And other writers and you and you look and you say oh those guys say well, we're really it doesn't this generation we don't mean this this generation remain it means this type of generation and Then the question

I would ask is does the text say this type of generation or does it just say this generation?

say so not only do you have to deal with what a text says but you need to deal with what a text doesn't say or Someone Tim LaHaye and Tommy Ice wrote a wrote a book and they say well it means this is the way it needs to be interpreted the generation that these signs will not pass away until all these things take place and Again, does that what the text says?

No, no, the text doesn't say that all it says is this generation will not pass away and all these things take place So some people will actually add words to a particular text in order to make it fit fit their particular interpretive model, so The first thing you have to do is to actually just stick with what the text says

Even if you don't even if you can't figure out what it means, that's always the first step what does the text say and then if you have any questions or Let me know at this point before I move on to the next point

Oh You're you're doing just fine. I was just gonna say as you're talking about this

I you know, you're totally right even if they do say this type of generation or whichever generation sees these signs

Okay, let's go with that Practice a good hermeneutic exegete the text before that and you'll see you'll see who he's talking about yeah, so verse 30

Matthew 24 34 this generation will not pass away and And verse 33 uses the second -person plural twice and I say to you

And that's by the way, this is going to be the next the next point I say to you you

You will see these things take place if the and You've got to wait a minute here.

There's an audience. There's Jesus has a particular audience and in view here Who's he talking to who so, you know now you got to deal with the primary audience

The but Jesus wasn't talking to us first He was talking to a particular audience in Matthew 24 and you have to ask yourself the question

Who who were these people? Why does Jesus use the second -person plural? throughout

And in fact if you want to really get into the context of all this

You need to start with Matthew 21 because in Matthew 21 not only

Do you find out who the audience is and that there is a particular audience to whom

Jesus is speaking? But it tells you also where Jesus was talking to that audience and that is the

Mount of Olives. So Matthew chapter 21 22 23 24 and 25

And all takes place and the on the Mount of Olives and Then when you all see what you also will find when you when you read those those through those chapters it's

This the second -person plural is used and then you get the chapter 21 when

Jesus and there's another there are other people in this audience There as we as you go through you'll find that Jesus deals with the disciples starting the cycles and a smaller smaller group of Disciples, but there are also religious leaders if you go through chapter 21 and chapter 22 and chapter 23

There were religious leaders there as well. So now you have a broader audience and the

Second -person plural is used throughout and now you get a little key here

If you find your context in chapter 21 when the religious leaders heard Jesus talking about what was going on They said he's talking about us

So now now you have that you have the text of Scripture Telling you that what

Jesus was saying to that particular primary audience It was understood by the religious leaders of the day that Jesus was talking about them not some future generation, but that particular generation and And then you this generation occurs back in Matthew 23 and then of course

Matthew 24 so you've got what is the text? Actually, what does the text say?

What doesn't it say? Are there other places in Scripture where you can find? phraseology that's similar to that to help you figure out the meaning in terms of the context that this is used and That that's that's the first that's the first The beginning of this and it's it's and by the way, we do this with everything

We're always involved in hermeneutics You meet somebody for the first time you're looking at their there, you know

Are they looking at directly you directly to you in the eye skirt? You know, they're looking over here

They're looking over there kind of language that they use mannerisms that they have We're always involved in hermeneutics if you take a literature class, you know

Shakespeare What does that mean? Well, you've got to know Shakespeare Language in order to determine what he might know and then the other thing you have to do which is another element of this

Is there any history that you need to know in order to come to a better?

understanding of why Jesus said what he what he said and So you put those elements together and you are on you are on the right track

You're the beginning track of figuring out what the Bible has to say Now there are some things that are very hard just hard to understand

Peter said that about Paul We know there, you know, he said some very difficult things. And so that's why

I say don't start with the book of Revelation start with a place in Scripture again sticking with eschatology and you think about this so you have

Matthew 10 23 Matthew 16 27 28 Matthew 21 22 23 24 25

Mark 13 Luke 21 Luke 19 Luke 17. So there you have a bunch of Texts that are parallel with one another

And in Jesus, you know what the prime, you know who the primary audience is You you've got ways to compare what's what's what those phrases mean using finding them elsewhere in Scripture Consistently, you don't go to sit down and deal with a millennial question first You deal with okay.

I've got it. I've got to understand this context here What who is Jesus talking to and then the other element of this is why is he talking about this?

Why them? And now that's a broader broader question that you put a question mark up.

So I don't know why he's typically talking about Them why that generation and that comes down the road as you begin to study more why

Jesus was dealing specifically with that generation and not a future generation and You know and it look it takes time one of the first books

I read Remember this is back in the 1970s. This is

Hal Lindsay late like great planet earth. This is before the whole left -behind thing And there

I was a very new Christian and I was confused about Matthew 24, I you know, I didn't have the

Equipment in order to handle it and I picked up a book that was

Sitting on the library cart that the librarian was selling and it just sat on the spine

Matthew 24 by a guy named Marcellus kick Kik and I read it and what

I was learning in my hermeneutics class my interpret my interpretation class New Testament Interpretation let's compare scripture with scripture and that's what he did

He went through Matthew 24 and took each one of those phrases and compared those phrases with other places in scripture paying a paying a close attention to how they were used elsewhere and Showed how

Matthew 24 at least up to Matt verse 34 Was fulfilled before that generation passed away

Yeah, and you know that kind of set me on the you know on the kind of the path of dealing with this so and let me just say

The reason I got involved in the whole eschatology debate was because I was I'm really a worldview guy

I want to know how the Bible applies to every area of life and I wrote a series of books in the 1980s called

God and government I wanted to know what God's government was like and how it applied to self -government family government

Church government and civil government and so forth and I wrote these three volumes called

God and government and when I went out to speak on this topic and inevitably that you

Someone would say Gary. Why are you why are you talking about? This all this because Jesus is coming soon.

All the signs are there for the coming of Jesus And why are we wasting our time?

Dealing with politics and economics and education and welfare and foreign affairs and art and music

Why are we bothering with this? This is 19. This is 1982 1980 so 1984 when the second volume came out and I started speaking on it.

That was 40 years ago And people are still asking the same question. And so the reason

I got involved in eschatology Was because I had to answer the objection People who saying we're living in the last days

Jesus is coming soon why are we wasting our time dealing with the issues of the day because it's you know, the

Antichrist is going to show up and he's gonna make a Covenant with with the Jews and the temple is going to be rebuilt

You got the red heifers and you've got the breaks the covenant with with with Israel.

There's gonna be the slaughter of the Jews You went on and on, you know microchips and barcodes and QR codes now

And I had to deal with all that and that's why Yeah, and you're right once somebody grasped the that the key one of the keys to biblical interpretation is the scripture

Interprets itself use the Bible to interpret itself once somebody grabs hold of that It will set a person on fire to deeper study whether it be eschatology or anything else

Yeah, and it's you know, look and it's it's so it's It's so intuitive What other what other book would you use to interpret the

Bible other than the Bible itself? That's right Yeah, it's 66 books There's a lot of cross references.

I mean you can you get any Bible today? You see all the cross references and there are many many more than what you see in your own

Bible And there's a lot, you know, the Bible talks about the testimony of two or two or three witnesses

And the Bible is a witness to itself. But it also Says hey,

I'm gonna give you a bunch of witnesses on this and this is on terms of eschatology There's lots of witnesses here.

Like I said Matthew Mark and Luke John not so much you're given you can make do all these comparisons and And you you'll almost say well wait a minute there's differences in Luke Luke 21 and Matthew chapter 20 24

And you know, there are differences and you know that there are differences in the birth narratives and more and Matthew and Luke as well

So what you do is like a deck of cards, you know you separate them and then you're gonna shuffle them and you shuffle and you bring them together and they make a

More full picture and Luke Luke is dealing with it with a different audience than Matthew is dealing with talking about the same subject, but they each are emphasizing different things and a friend of mine

Otto Scott, I don't know if you've ever heard of Otto Scott He was a friend of RJ rush duty became a

Christian very late in life And he tells a story about how I think it was his granddaughter. It might have been his daughter came up to him

Wanted him wanted to read the Bible to you know to to her and and Otto Scott was an investigative journalist and as he read through the

Gospels, he found these differences in the gospel accounts and He said it was the differences in the accounts that convinced him of their authenticity

Because as an investigative Journalist when you find three people giving given this giving the same story with all the specific details one on top of the other you get suspicious that they collaborated with one another and So it was the differences in the gospel accounts that convinced him that the

Bible was in fact the Word of God Because that his investigative journalism taught him that's what you expect when you've got three different people

Looking at the same event, but given it but giving different Perspectives on it because they were looking at it a little different little different area

So, you know the and these this just comes this comes with with time So let me

I don't know if you what you have anything else you want to want to do So, let me take you to the next step in all of this

And let me to get some better light here Yeah, those of you who are listening to this for the

For the first time and maybe later on Go to the let's look. Let's look at the book of Revelation for a moment since everybody likes the book of Revelation Go there and I I did a podcast on this

That will will drop on September 20th. I have a I Have to got to go and have an operation have to get my thyroid

Removed I some cancerous nodules on it. So I've been working Working ahead in order to I don't know what my space throat is gonna be like after that So I'm trying to get a head on it

So I've done something a little more elaborate than what I'm gonna do here and this particular person went to Revelation chapter 3 verse 10

Now You don't start you don't start three chapters in to figure out what's going on in a book especially the

Bible And so this is look before we get to 310. We want to look at Revelation chapter 1 verse 1 now

Those who are listening to this may have an already scoped out developed eschatological view and What I'm gonna what

I'm going to say at this point may mess you up But we're following.

Let's let the text speak for itself right a revelation chapter 1 the revelation of Jesus Christ, which

God gave him to show to his bond servants the things which must shortly take place

And he sent and communicated it by his angel to his bond servant John Who bore witness to the

Word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ even to all that he saw?

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it

The time is near So right off the bat, there are two time indicators shortly

Near later We'll find the word quickly used and these time words appear at the very last chapter of the book of Revelation so to me

You're stuck The book of Revelation is describing things that were near and we're going to happen shortly

To the people who first read the book of Revelation now a lot of people who have probably you know in the church and they've heard

The sermons on the book of Revelation and they've heard all this stuff about book of Revelations Why do you say that the book of Revelation is written?

1895 near you know to God a Thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years.

And so this near could really mean far shortly You know you I heard all the excuses and but if you stick to the text

Shortly near and here's what I would tell people to do before we go any any further in this

Get a concordance out and look up every use of near and shortly used in the

New Testament and see how they are used elsewhere and So the question you have to ask is would

God change his definition of near and shortly? When on every other occasion in which near and shortly are used

Always mean guess what near and shortly and So right at the beginning we're told that the events in the book of Revelation are

Shortly to take place because the time is near now at that point you say well, wait a minute How can you say their stars are going to fall from heaven?

There's a dragon. There's a giant woman There are these beasts of beasts the two witnesses.

There's bad, you know, the Babylon's Sodom and Egypt Jezebel and all this other stuff in the book of Revelation and I say guess what?

Near and shortly are telling you that those things need to be interpreted in terms of those time indicators and you've got to figure out

Why they were revealed to John in the way that they were revealed and I'm going to guarantee you if you're a new

Christian You're not going to be able to figure that out very early But this this forces you to at least evaluate the text of Scripture So when other people come and teach on this doctrine you're always in the back of your mind say

How is he interpreting the use of near and shortly in? Book of Revelation, how does he deal with that?

I want to know that first and then You can you can go on.

So let's let's just let's just go on a little bit here to Revelation chapter 3 And the person who was the was was talking about this

Was Maintaining that what you read in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 refers to events yet in our future and First thing

I I noticed here and everybody should notice that beginning with verse 7 Says this is the message to the church in Philadelphia not

Philadelphia PA or Philadelphia, Mississippi Philadelphia of that that time

So now you're reading this and you're saying wait a minute This is a message primary audience to that church at that time and we just read time is near these things must shortly take place and And then you

I'm only gonna there's lots of questions people would have but so let's look at since he started with verse 10

So this is a little deeper dive into all of this because sometimes translations aren't

Aren't aren't that great? And you've got to go a little beyond and there are a lot of helps online

Will help you with this. So let me just read this. This is because you oh

Wait a minute an audience reference You you or them you well primary audience

This is them you not us you Because you have kept the word of my perseverance.

I also will keep you from the hour of testing so who's the who's who's this talking to Talking to this this group this people

Christians in the Church of Philadelphia so when they got their copy of What we the apocalypse that is really the title of this

Who do you what do you think they were thinking they read this who was who do they think the you was referring to to some

Group of people in the distant future or to them You know the answer to that.

That's right. It would have This is talking to us. Yeah Because you have kept the word of my perseverance.

I also will keep you from the hour of testing Now this is

I'm just gonna add this stuff and I don't want to complicate the two things too much for us, but You go back to Matthew chapter 24.

Jesus says he doesn't know the day or the hour He knew tells he told us what generation it was their generation but he didn't tell them the day or the hour and That is at the very specific time.

This was going to happen That's why you needed to pay attention to these signs So because you have kept the word of my perseverance

I also will keep you from the hour of testing now listen to this That hour which is about To come on the whole world test those who dwell upon the earth

Think of that That is about to take place and it's an interesting word here about that's it's the

Greek word mellow And it's not always translated In a lot of translations, you don't know it's there but on this particular occasion,

I'm reading from the New American Standard it's telling us that it's mellow and mellow means about to so if You're going to maintain that this refers to something in the distant future

You got to explain Mellow here and this translation the translation is right.

It's about to take place so About to can't mean 2 ,000 years.

We have the audience Talking to them. We have about to we got the timing and Now we have to do a little deep dive here because someone will say wait a minute said

It's about to come upon the whole world So are you saying that the whole world the whole wide world the globe planet

Earth? This happened to planet Earth Good question The problem that here is the translation of the

Greek word that is used here What would you expect when it's translated world?

What would you expect a Greek word would be you don't even have to know Greek? You might make a guess

The Greek word typically is cosmos Yes, but by the way, even if you were cosmos it wouldn't necessarily mean the whole whole planet

But the word that's used here is and you wouldn't know this unless You you knew a little

Greek and you don't need to be a Greek scholar to know at least a little bit of Greek You can go online to a

Bible hub. I use Bible hub and just type in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 every

Greek word and I'll give you the translation of the Greek word and You find it the

Greek word here like too many At which the prefix oikos means house and like you many typically is

As often translated as inhabited earth The Roman Empire.

I don't want I don't like that even even inherited earth is not as Definitive as I would like.

I think it's more of geographical boundary limited geographical boundary

And let me give you an example of this Luke chapter 2 verse 1 and so now so now what

I'm going to do is I'll get this Greek word Boy, too many and I find out it's it's that word.

I'm gonna look for other verses in the Bible where oikos many is used and One of the first places it's used is in Luke chapter 2 verse 1

And I remember when I was a child I was watching a on TV the

Essentially Christmas story with stop -action and I think it was Alexander Scorby who quoted the loop loop

Chapter 2 verse 1 that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole world be taxed now

What word is that? What's what word is there the word that's used there is way too many. It's not cosmos and It makes sense because as much as the

Roman Empire Would like to tax the whole world Like every politician would like to tax the whole world it's

Rome couldn't tax the whole world. It could only tax what was in their Empire unless they conquered more land

So the Greek word oikos many oikos many makes perfect sense there

And so what is described in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 isn't something's gonna happen over the whole world

Sometime in the distant future for something that was going to happen to the people of that day and It was it was going to be limited and that's exactly what you find in say

Matthew chapter 24 14 Where it talks about the gospel must be preached in the whole world

And then the end will come the end what end are we talking about there? And It's the

Greek word oikos many again Not the whole wide world, but that particular world and then you can make comparisons that did the gospel.

I was asked Question what would convince you that the gospel had been preached in?

Throughout the whole world at that time what would convince you that it already took place and people are kind of stymied by that question and I said look, the only thing that would convince me of that is if the

Bible told me that so, you know the gospel Colossians 126 and 123 says that the gospel had been preached to listen to this every creature under heaven, which is obviously a little

Hyperbole but the had the gospel been preached throughout the Roman Empire before that generation passed away because the word

Greek word oikos many is used there and I would say absolutely Yes, yeah read read

Paul's got all his letter to the Romans Where was he planning to go? Is he saying to go to Spain taking the gospel to Spain?

We know that the gospel hit the British Isles in that time So throughout the whole

Roman Empire that gospel had in fact been preached as a witness to the nations and so so So there you go.

That's a that's a deeper dive Get those basics audience relevance prime be a primary primary audience the timing the timing factor

Comparing scripture with scripture. How does this generation? How is it used elsewhere? Once you kind of get that and you come across passages like this you got it

You got it. You have to be curious enough. I have to be curious enough to Do a little bit more investigation on on this

Yeah, and That's what I try to get people to do. I just say look See what it says and a lot of people don't like what

I what I come across and because they have a system That they're comfortable with and they think it's the system

That's the one that just figures out everything but I come in there and just ask a couple of questions and they're there

They get irate over at all, but as you can tell

People do in fact do the research on all this and they Get out of the trap

Having to interpret the Bible by someone else's grid and that's what you want to be able to do. Yeah well, we want to be respectful of you and About 15 more minutes.

Well, I give us an hour Dan If you just want to pick if we can get two more questions in Dan If you want to pick one from the list and then

I'll pick one more how about I pick one that's not on the list because I Got it just it came up in my head.

I think it'd be good. Um, I Mean, I'm taking some seminary classes right now.

One of them. I'm at a dispensational school And I'm taking a class on Zachariah So I'm I'm hearing like all this stuff that you're saying is it's extremely relevant to what

I'm experiencing Seeing through through this class right now One of the things that I'm noticing is that they put a strong emphasis on the intent of the author and I think that's a good it's a good person to have but I often see that they will

Tend to ignore ignore or not maybe think through or maybe when it's convenient,

I really don't know that the ultimate author of Scripture is the

Holy Spirit who can choose to have things be said in the Old Testament and then Interpreted in a new light in the

New Testament sure, and and so can you just speak to that a little bit about about the importance of of the intent of the author and Especially the the ultimate author being the

Holy Spirit and putting the whole of Scripture together Yeah, I mean, that's a very good question

One of the things we have to keep in mind is that the Holy Spirit is is

Communicating to human beings And happen and the

Holy Spirit has to communicate to those human beings in words and phrases and so forth that they understand if if the

Holy Spirit were speaking maybe in Some sort of heavenly language.

We wouldn't know we wouldn't know what he was saying but so the Holy Spirit is is Speaking to us in words that we we can understand and we should be able to understand what he's you know, what what he's saying and So, I don't have any

I don't have any problem with that But I would say that Zach Zachariah is a much more.

It's kind of like the book of Revelation It's much more difficult book. You don't want to start people always want to take me to Zachariah 14

You know and I said look I'll be glad to go through Zachariah 14 with you verse verse by verse if you want to But that isn't where I would

I would you know start with with someone but God is going to communicate to us in terms of Language we can understand in fact on online today this issue, you know came up about The time the time texts and people who go to 2nd

Peter chapter 3 and says, you know what one day with the Lord is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day basically took that verse and Try to apply that verse to words like near shortly and quickly

The and I'm thinking to myself Well, I wasn't thinking to myself because this is what I told him

So what you can what you're saying here is that you you're taking something that is

The prerogative of God in terms of time and you're making that prerogative interpretive in terms of us

And so if God is trying to and as God is trying to reveal something to us

He's going to reveal things to us in language that we understand and language that is used

Consistently through his word you can't just all of a sudden say now well time with God is different So well time with God is different, but time with us is not different and so I Responded to this guy, but what

I would do and it's what I've done. I would look up every use of the word near and shortly and quickly in the

New Testament and see how they are used elsewhere and You can't just say well prophetically it's used in a different way.

No, that's not the way it works the reason You're you're kind of stuck with those definitions is so you don't go off on Reinterpret things and worse worse your view upon what the text has to say

So again, Holy Spirit communicating to us the Holy Spirit is using human beings or to make communication is using words that in languages

That we can we can understand And so I mean,

I think it's the right emphasis. So I don't have any problem with that at all It's just you need to understand. What does that mean?

Are you saying, you know what the Holy Spirit means by this? How do you know? well the only way you know is let's look at Scripture and see what the

Holy Spirit because if if 2nd 2nd Timothy 3 16 and 17 are

Of any value all scripture is God breathed But it read the second second verse of that that is for us

That is for us to apply And so you can't you got it's

God's Breath in terms of the words that he's given to us But he's giving those to us so that we might use them and apply them in a way that we understand

We understand that language So I think that's a very good point it just needs to be understood problem.

Yeah, I think this last question will be very helpful and Interesting interesting to our audience and I know it's interesting to me you have different in hermetical approaches

You've got a literal allegorical historical critical Figurative all this different types of language in Scripture and you touched on it earlier

So Once you get to those those places where this the stars are falling you have a woman and the moon

Out in space and you have a lamb beast and a sea beast all these different creatures with multiple different heads

Once you get to those places It begins to blow your mind. What do I do with all those passages?

So maybe you could touch on that and that will be a last question Well, let's the word literal means according to the literature

We understand we think of literal as that's a that's a real woman out in space

Standing on the moon and a crown with twelve stars and the Sun, you know draped as a garment around her

So that that's got you know, literal would mean The way it's often understood today that there's a real woman out there somewhere

That but that's not what literal means literal means according the literature so when you

When you look at something like the book of Revelation you have to understand that that the liturgy the the

What what we're reading there is in is is in symbol Signage in fact, that's the that's if you go back to Revelation chapter 1.

It's what is signified signify and But you but when you read

Revelation chapters 1 2 & 3 There's kind of a mix of historical issues because you find in verse 9 of Revelation chapter 1 that John says he is a fellow partaker in the tribulation and the kingdom so that's that's that's a little different piece of literature than you would find with this giant woman out in space somewhere or these beasts in Revelation 13 of sea beast and a land beast in the number 666 and all of that So you have to pay it you have to pay attention to what kind of literature it is and that's look it's not always easy

To do that. There's a lot of hyperbole in the Bible a lot of exaggeration But again, if you start comparing

The language with you know elsewhere in Scripture and how it's used for example

You look at Matthew chapter 24 21 about the great tribulation or was or will be and People say well that tribulation hasn't happened yet.

Yet. If you go to Ezekiel chapter 5 verse 9 the same language is used there And it talks about King Kings of Israel.

It says well this particular King was the greatest there Whoever was and ever will be and yet there's a king that comes on later on it was greater than that King You say well, okay

Understand that this is this is hyperbole and it's being used in such a way to emphasize something and we do the same thing in our own language

And you know like the word all or every Who was it? Who was at the basketball game last night?

Everyone was dead Everyone well, you know what I mean?

Yeah, we do know what you mean So the same thing in the Bible you will find you know

Figures of speaking similes and metaphors or some allegory you see that in in the book of Galatians at Galatians chapter chapter 4

And again, it takes it takes practice to do this. This is what Hebrews chapter 5 is all about We have to have our senses train

Concerned good and evil we do that through practice. And so practicing going through Scripture and doing this it starts

You start getting better at it you start developing kind of a literary Mind in order to see these.

Oh, I saw that there. Let me look go back and check on that So that means you kind of have to have a broad knowledge of the

Bible in order to do You know hermeneutics justice And by using this method you're not dismissing

What God has to say I feel like sometimes those who? Won't to interpret and then come down on us who interpret it differently and use the word literally like you were talking about earlier

We take the Bible literally We're not Dismissing what

God has to say we are trying to understand and hear what God has to say Yeah, how he had to say it now

I just think you know when you start talking because you can always someone says why interpret the Bible literally and you say, okay

So there is a book of Revelation has a dragon with a tail and he throws throws the stars down to the earth

So is there a literal dragon there and he has a tail that throws him down to the earth? Well, no, but you know that I mean, come on, that's you don't take that literally, you know well,

I'm asking you a question about that and And you so he throws the stars down to the earth and he does that in chapter 6 and then

I think again in chapter 12 you've got stars that are Falling hit the earth like like ripe figs and so forth.

And I said I asked the question are those those those physical stars

Falling down to the earth and they said oh, yeah, that's gonna happen in the future. You see that hasn't happened yet I said really so in chapter 6

There's a dragon he's gonna let's just say that's that's a figure that's a figure of speech That he's just a symbol, but those are real stars.

He's gonna throw them down the earth Is it really so one star hit the earth? The earth the earth would be completely obliterate

But a whole bunch of them hitting the earth What about that and if that that's supposed to happen in chapter 6

How can it happen again in chapter in chapter 12, how can there be a chapter 7

And so, you know, but people will go to extremes And they will say what they are our meteorites your meteorites that are gonna do they're gonna do this.

Well You know some meteor hits the earth one Devastation supposedly the dinosaurs were killed off because of that And so there is a little bit of reasoning that you have to do with this as well

But I don't want to dismiss some real, you know Some seemingly unreasonable things in Scripture like raising people

Jesus raising people from the dead That's not a metaphor or when Jesus was raised from the dead. That's that's not a metaphor

And we and we are given kind of Evidential reasons for that.

So there's you know, Jesus doesn't say you just just believe me But he you know, he he appears and you know the story of Thomas and so forth

So, you know you I don't I don't want people to think well because it seems

Reasonable for that to happen that it didn't happen But I think the context kind of tells us something when you know

Moses saw this burning bush. What did he do? Moses Investigated he went walked around that he looked at it

He saw he saw something So so that the context there is telling you that he saw something completely out of accord with what reality is or you know, there was the

Opening up of the red the Red Sea. There's the same thing. You've got this you have this evidentiary

Evidences here in order to tell you that this look this is something that that hasn't happened before But the

Bible is putting this not in the Dragon's tail throwing down stars to the earth

There are people there who witness this and walk through so you have to look everything every every situation and every context to kind of get an idea of You know, what's the best way to understand there?

Yeah, but here's a speech, you know Hey, you got to take the log out of your own eye

You can't fit it a log in your eye and it's obviously Jesus there is teaching by analogy and he's using hyperbole

And again that that takes that takes some practice in order to do that. Yeah Well, it's fitting that we we talk about Christ and Scripture and scripture interpretation is not only interesting

But it is beautiful to those whom he has saved and those who have received the

Holy Spirit and that's the most important thing That's what this whole Bible is about. It's about Jesus Christ and our last call to those who would watch or listen is to remember

James chapter 2 verse 10 if you keep the whole law and you stumble even at one point you're guilty of it all and So we've all sinned.

We've all fallen short of God's glory We need a Savior we need a rescuer and that one is

God's Son whom he sent and he lived a sinless life He died on our behalf took upon our sins that he didn't deserve but we deserve he took upon himself died

He was buried resurrected. He ascended and now he sits at the right hand of the Father and He calls all men everywhere to repent so that we would call you tonight and whenever you watch or listen to this call you with that same call to repent of your sins and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and This too will not only become interesting but beautiful to you as you learn more about your

Savior Jesus Christ Dan, would you mind to close this in prayer? Let me say one thing You just you just proved the point

Everything that you quoted there turning and pointing people to Jesus Christ were specific texts that actually say that yeah, and that's

There it is. I Remember Archie Parrish who worked for D.

James Kennedy down at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. We became a new new Christian And he didn't know much he didn't he didn't know much but he had become a new

Christian He started presenting the gospel to people and he and the people would ask him quick questions

And he said I don't know that but all I do know is if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be saved

Maybe what about this? So I don't know the answer to that. But if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved

Amen, so I you you're absolutely right what weird what we've discussed is kind of an intramural debate and if you don't you don't start with the person and work of Jesus Christ in a transform transformative nature of what

Jesus came to do Not none of this none of this makes sense or it was even relevant in the long terms of things

That's right. Praise the Lord Dan Yeah Dear Heavenly Father.

Thank you for this conversation. Pray that as we look at our Bibles we would remember you are the author that we would look into them diligently knowing that you have spoken to us

We pray for our guest. He's having some surgery on the next few weeks We pray that that would go well that he would be well taken care of by the doctors

He would heal nicely afterwards. I would thank you for all that you've done in the world and we pray that you will continue to To work in us how you would have things done in Christ.

Let me pray. Amen. Amen. Mr. Gary tomorrow we appreciate your time so very much and Give me a give me a call.

Hopefully I'll be able to talk again after the 12th So we'll see fantastic and thank you all for watching and listening and as always remember that Jesus is

King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.