Cross Examination on 1 Cor. 3 and Purgatory

1 Corinthians 3, beginning at verse 10, what is your understanding, who is being discussed contextually in this passage?

Well, just in 1 Corinthians 3 in general. For example, when it says, let a man be, verse 10, but let each one look to how he builds upon it, who is being discussed here?

Is this all saints? Is this Christian leaders? Is it not saints, but those who have to go to purgatory before they become saints?

How do you understand it? Well, Paul is talking about himself as the architect who laid the foundation, correct?

And the process of the planting of the gospel being done by various people.

Mm -hmm. So specifically the context then is referring to people who are involved in building the church.

Let them be careful how they build upon the foundation I've laid. We would agree with that. Okay. Then when he goes on to talk about this building upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble, what do you understand those words to refer to, please?

Well, he's referring, and notice he changes the pronoun at that point to you, which is to say the cooperation of the believer in the work of the construction of the edifice.

Actually, he uses the indefinite there, but if anyone builds, verse 12, Tess is used there. So what do these things refer to then?

The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble. What are those? One's individual gifts, talents, et cetera, or the lack thereof, the non -use of these things.

So that if I have a talent that's gold and instead I don't use it, is that perhaps straw being introduced into the edifice?

Okay. When it refers to the day revealing, making manifest these works that are being built upon the foundation, that there's going to be an apocalypsis is the actual term, that it'll be apocalypticized by fire.

Is it your belief that what is being referred to here is purgatorial sufferings in regards to temporal punishments of sins?

I think first of all, he's talking about the day of the Lord coming into the life of the individual, and furthermore, the individual's participation in that day of the

Lord. Do you believe that what is being referred to in verse 13, when it refers to the fire shall reveal it, and each one's work of what sort it is, the fire will test that this is the fire of purgatory?

Well, first of all, the church does not teach the precise nature of purgatory.

And so I would say that this is a metaphor here, as is the church's use of the metaphor of fire for purgatory.

Has the church used this passage as a substantiation for the existence of purgatory? As an indication of the primitive belief in purgatory, yes.

So if the primitive writers believed in purgatory, and if the church has pointed to this, then can we not ask concerning the nature, not the physical nature, but the fact that this fire reveals of what sort works are?

Would it not have to, sir, if it's supportive of the concept of purgatory?

Would it not have to, in this passage, refer to some sort of suffering and some sort of cleansing of temporal punishments of sins, not merely the demonstration of whether a church leader's motivations were pure, whether his works were gold, or whether they were strong?

The revelation is in itself a form of catharsis or purification. So revelation in testing is involving purification.

Is that what you just indicated? If you reveal my flaws to me, that revelation in and of itself can be purifying.

Those who built with gold, silver, and precious stones also go through this fire.

Where is there any concept of these individuals needing this purification before they enter into the presence of God?

Does it not say that that they actually receive a reward, that there's nothing here concerning their needing this purification?

Well, I think it's the simple realization that even the just man sins seven times a day, and therefore the need for purification for most people.

So where in the text do you have this mixture where you have people who have gold, silver, precious stones, and they have a little wood, hay, and straw burned, and that's their purification?

Where is that derived from the text? I'm missing your point. Well, you just indicated the just man sins seven times, so it sounded like you were asserting that even those who built with gold, silver, and precious stones, that they themselves are undergoing some sort of purification here.

The only thing the text says is they receive a reward. And the others do not.

What is their reward? What rewards are given in purgatory? Heaven. But they both get heaven.

So the one gets something the other doesn't get in this text. What is it? Where does it say the other doesn't get anything?

Verse 15, but if a certain one's works are consumed, he shall suffer a loss, yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

He doesn't receive a misthos. He does not receive a reward. So if the reward's heaven, then this can't be purgatory because this ends up in hell.

I don't see that. I'm sorry. Okay, well, no, no, no, let's be respectful, everyone.

Let's see if we can work through this. The fact of the matter is both these groups experience the same testing by fire, but the ones who have their works remain, which they have built upon the foundation.

Verse 14 says, they shall receive a reward, a misthos.

But if another one has their works, which they have built, which were made of wood, hay, and straw, burned up, consumed, they shall suffer a loss, yet they shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

So if this is the fire of purgatory, both experienced it, one gets a reward. If that's heaven, what do the other people get?

Do you see the point? You're saying the ones whose works are burnt up get the reward? No, they don't get any reward.

That's what it says. They suffer loss. Zemiaho means to suffer a loss of something. If it is burnt down, he will be the loser, and though he has saved himself, it will be as if one who has gone through fire.

Wow, that's a fascinating translation. I'd like to pick up with that on the second round.