May 18, 2006

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line the Thursday afternoon. No Tom Askew is not here. So that means the phones are not going to be ringing off the wall today. Then again, if you couldn't get in last time, you know, if you can put up with just little old me then you can you can go ahead and call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one as someone in fact is is doing even even now I'd like how I did that.

That was sort of a interesting normally I just I just point at rich and he knows to look at the phone. But that time I did it as a part of the presentation because I am a highly trained broadcast professional.

Actually, I am believe or not I grew up doing radio well grew up doing rate. It sounds like I started when I was three or something, but I didn't. But starting 15 16 years of age. I was on the air doing.

Back then we had those big round things called records that we spun and they would skip and you have to learn how to bounce Them just right so that they would skip to the next thing. It normally turned them down before doing that.

But then sometimes you just got bored and you stood the other way, but no anyway, why don't I get on that? I don't know. Lots of stuff to talk about in the program today and talk with you. Take your phone calls.

I have Seen some very interesting things on the web no two ways about it over the past couple of days about the Ergon canner emir canner Tom Askew and the guy in Phoenix thing and Gene cooks not dead.

He isn't dead. I I didn't think that he was dead. But did we actually say that he was dead? I don't remember saying that Gene cook was dead. The guy called in he was talking about Gene Scott. We got the names mixed up and so he's calling in to let us know that we know that Gene Scott's dead.

Yeah, but I know. Names mixed up. Oh the caller did he said he was dead. And just so Gene is calling in to tell us and make sure that we know that he is not dead. All I can say is it's it's a sad sad day Gene when you have to call into a program to tell people that you're not dead.

Jane. Yeah, I'm glad you're not dead. I'm not dead. Thank you. I appreciate.

But you know I have to tell you it kind of freaked me out because I had two people email me and they said James White said you were dead. And so I said what and they said no you got to listen to the feed and so.

Are the the file. So I went back and listened to it and Somebody asked you a question about they said, you know, Gene cook and he said yeah, he's. Is that the guy that just died? And I knew I knew you were probably thinking about Gene Scott.

Yes later in the program. He said actually it was Gene Scott that I was thinking of. That's the guy that died, right? Right, right.

Well, we knew you weren't dead. How many genes can there be in California? Anyway, that's right. There's a lot. There are a lot of genes in California. Yeah, okay. All right, and.

But the good thing is that there's not a lot of Gene Scott that you know.

That's a very good thing because if there had been a lot of him.

It would have been a lot weirder than it actually is. Yeah, but that I got to tell you. That's also not the first time it happened. I was preaching at a church one time and the pastor got up to introduce me and he introduced me as Gene Scott.

Now that is really not good because you probably even smoke to you. Well, I do have an occasional cigar. Well, okay.

All right, but not when I'm preaching. That's the difference. I don't have any live dancing girls behind me.

Well, I was gonna say you generally also watch your language while preaching as well. Yeah, well. Unless it's in the Bible. Oh, okay. All right. Well, all right. Hey now he was. Now we had a call. I thought we had a call.

Something about a Guy who debates Calvinist. Was that the same call? No, that was a different call and I was gonna I have that on my list. I've got three things that I wanted to talk to you about. Okay, when number one is I'm not dead.

Not dead. All right, that's good. Number two. Is this guy named Steve Gregg? Okay, Steve Gregg. Yeah, Steve Gregg is a former Calvary Chapel Jesus movement Christian that has come out of the I think he lives in Idaho.

But he had a he had a regular talk show on some local station up there in Idaho Monday through Friday and it was actually called the narrow path. I don't know if he still has it. I haven't checked up on him.

Yeah, but he was actually the publisher that published the book called four views on the Millennium. Oh, so if you look at that book four views on the Millennium, I'm not sure I don't think he contributed but he is all millennial which is kind of strange.

Okay, but he's he's a five-point Armenian. Is there isn't a. Let me back. I was like, why is it strange that he's on millennial?

I guess you don't expect people that are coming out of the camera. You expect him to be our right, right? Beyond millennia, okay. Well, I was probably part of his coming out. It probably was you're right.

Yeah, so he. Somebody got us together and it wasn't actually a formal debate. It was just a series of dialogues on his radio program. But the guy that called you and said that Steve Gregg, you know. Is the guy that you should probably discuss Calvinism with.

Yes the only difference between Say Norman Geisler and Steve Gregg is that Steve Gregg is not afraid to defend his position, which is good and Steve Gregg is a very smooth talker. Mm-hmm. He can he's about the most creative Armenian that I've ever come in contact with.

Creative creative. Yeah as far as twisting scripture around. Okay, and I mean just the man has an incredible imagination. Hmm and that which is it that's good if you're defending our minimism because you're going to need that.

If you're trying to do so biblically, yes, right.

But what happened was one of the days we actually they had some problems with the radio station. So we weren't able to go on. So we did four shows on his radios on his radio program and then the fifth one.

We actually did on mine. Mm-hmm, and that was kind of the grand finale. But the highlight is I think back on those five dialects and by the way, I can send you a Link if you want to listen to those I would like to listen.

He's also got I think on his website if you still got it up there. He had all of his lectures on Calvinism now. Now one other difference about this guy is that he is honest in his representation of Calvinism, you know.

He doesn't blow things out of proportion. He doesn't necessarily haven't known him to you know. Do the straw man thing where he he just exaggerates and tries to make the doctrine look as ugly as possible.

I think he does a fair example or a fair representation in Representing Calvinism. He does a whole teaching I think it's like 15 sermons or 15 lessons that he did on Calvinism in a Sunday school class.

So I listened to that stuff first, so I kind of knew where he was coming from. But as I think back on the five dialogues the highlight for me was He kept denying that men were regenerated in the Old Testament.

You know, he was equating. The giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. He said it was impossible for a man to be regenerated without the gift of the Holy Spirit so the highlight for me was when I Demonstrated from Scripture.

They were they had circumcised hearts in the Old Covenant. Mm-hmm, and He said so what does that mean? And I said, well, let's take a look at at the end of chapter 2 there I think it's verses 19 through 21.

Right the very last verses it talks about having a circumcised heart and he said so what does that mean? And I said well It says it's circumcised by the Spirit or it mentions the Spirit in the context of the circumcised heart mm-hmm, and he said no, no, no the spirits not mentioned in the book of Romans until chapter 8 and I said we'll open your Bible to chapter 2 and there it was.

So he kind of put his foot in his mouth at that point. And I think that that really kind of drove home at least for me the fact that He really didn't understand the work of the Spirit in the Old Testament as it relates to regeneration.

Hmm interesting.

Well, yeah, I have had people make a reference and tell me to to look at. You know what? He what he had to say and I if I recall correctly, I may have even downloaded some mp3s a while back. But I I've that's that's about my extent of it.

So well good. I'd like to be able to listen to those. Yeah, I'll send you over a.

Password in a. And the other guy that's recently contacted me I ran into him a couple times, but I he just refreshed my memory last Tuesday night when I spoke to him on my program a guy named Eric Lunsbury and He he mentions you.

He's all upset with me. He mentions you in the email that he sent me this the scolding email. Basically the subject of God speaking to us and an audible voice came up on the program and I gave the standard reform position on that that God does not speak audibly apart from the scriptures and He called me up and rebuked me.

But he said in the email that he's trying he's working on getting a debate together with you because you guys have a mutual friend. Really?

Yeah, that's what he said. Did he mention who the friend is? Let me take a look real fast. I don't think he did cuz I it's not ringing any bells with me. Whatsoever. Ring any bells you rich?

He also lives in Idaho now in and this is the first time that that crossed my mind that that maybe these guys know each.

Other the only guy I know who know who lives in Idaho. Oh, yep. Okay. Bingo. I got it. I just just made the connection as he a Calvary Chapel guy. He sounds like one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just made the connection.

All right. I know who he's referring to. Bing bing bing. He yeah a couple weeks ago We got a we got a call about this because a friend of mine was dialoguing with somebody and he does live in Idaho. So yep, there you go.

So that is that is interesting. Yeah, he says in the email.

I'm in the process of trying to get a debate set up with your friend James White on Calvinism and I Think he says he wants here to to Debate the subject of limited atonement or actually no. He wants to debate me on the subject of limited to God speaking through us in the scripture alone.

Oh, he wants to actually go after sola scriptura.

Well, I told him that his position was a denial of sola scripture, right? No, it's not. No, it's not. He basically compared himself to Agabus in the book of Acts and Moses in the you know as God spoke to Moses face-to-face as one man speaks to another.

Mm-hmm. He's describing that as normative Christian prayer. And he says you can't have fellowship unless God is actually speaking to you and you're hearing what he says. Hmm, and I'm thinking well I wonder what he would do if the Mormon missionaries came to his front door and asked him to pray about the truthfulness of Mormonism, right?

I mean it seems to me that holding his position. He'd be obligated to do so. He couldn't appeal to the scriptures and say well, you know. The scriptures already indicate to me that Mormonism is false, right?

Because then he would be limiting God which is exactly what he is accusing me of doing. Hmm interesting.

Well that that obviously introduces a rather Interesting dynamic into any discussion of reformed theology as well to be perfectly honest with you as far as the normative Authority of scripture. So all right, that's two of the three.

What was was what was number three? I see you're alive and.

That is number three, okay, and I'm alive. Steve Gregg and Eric Lunsbury. Lunsbury, okay. All right, so. And by the way, the Jehovah's Witness debate, I don't know if you got a chance to listen to it.

But I felt that it went well, okay, and I appreciate you coaching me on that. I.

Haven't heard from those guys since then. So as long as they're not, you know calling you up and you know chasing you around all the time that probably means something. Yeah. All right, sir, okay, thanks a lot gene.

All right. All right. There's gene cook everybody. He is alive and well and kicking and. Didn't I didn't mean to kill you Jane? I really didn't but I. You know, sometimes someone calls up and as soon as they say, California, it's you know, there's just so many things that that are wrong there.

Every time someone posts something in channel about about About about California, but now it's Idaho. I mean after today, I'm I thought That I knew of at least two Orthodox folks up there in in Idaho.

There's a holster is up there and then of course our friend is up there. Who's listening. Probably not right now, but listening by my archive a little later time a little time-lapsing there. But no now we find out that Idaho is is filled with Mormons and Calvary Chapel folks who talked to God.

So Here I was thinking that would be a good place to open up a tire shop, you know, but now I'm not so sure. Because you know hope stirs only got you know. Only it's gonna need four tires and so I guess start dealing with everybody else after that.

So that's that's not a real real good thing. Anyway. Appreciate that Gene for for your call in today, by the way, everyone Matt slicks up there. Oh my goodness. That is just an odd state just completely now I'm I'm not.

I've only been there once I drove was a Bear Lake down there near the Utah border. I think it's the only time I've ever been to Idaho and I do not believe I saw a human being while I was in Idaho so that that tells you something the Shabir Ali mp3 debate.

The mp3s are available in our mp3 shopping cart on the web the only reason that we have them available as quickly no, we have not yet received the. The materials. I was just told by a little bird that flew by earlier today that Biola is supposed to have the DVDs out by June 1st so I'm not sure what that means, but I'm not sure what our agreement was there whether we're getting final DVDs.

And then we're just making them available or just what the story is there. But I thought we were getting raw footage or and then we're doing them, you know so might want to give somebody a ring-a-ling on that but We have the mp3s because we had a videotape running as redundancy In one of our cameras and therefore we had an audio feed.

Wasn't I'm hoping the audio feed that ends up on the actual DVDs a little better at some points because when I start off And I start responding to certain things. I sound like I'm why is it always me?

That sounds like I'm a million miles away from the microphone and whoever I'm debating. They they get the good feed. I'm not sure why that why that. That works that way. But anyway, the mp3s are available if you go to the website the top article on the blog right now.

We'll have the link that you can take a look at that. Yes for anyone who's who would dare to ask and I'm not sure why anyone would dare to ask. Tomorrow morning I will be Looking at I will be heading over to a the earliest matinee Showing I can of the DaVinci Code.

Yes. I am well aware of the fact that it has been panned pretty badly. The critics ain't liking it I don't know how it could have be honest with you survived overly well on the critical level since everyone knows the book and the book itself is Questionable on certain levels.

I mean there's a lot of folks who have taken it on on just a stylistic level, but The the Really bad parts of the book are long dialogues and they're long dialogues in a in a front room Interrupted by a all of a sudden sudden violence, but Actually, nobody dies in that situation but you've got this big long situation in in in teebings mansion where you've got a front room you get an art room and and it's just dialogue dialogue dialogue dialogue and there's lengthy discussions between the characters, and there's the airplane section and How do you I don't know how you speed those things up?

There's not a whole lot going on other than people talking and what they're talking about is not really the kind of stuff where you? Can You know speed it along real well. There's how else can you do it and so I saw in the critics Panning of the movie a lot of discussion of how slow and plotting and there's all this extra detail.

And I'm like you you couldn't tell this story without the detail. I don't know how you can miss that and that would indicate of course that all the material that we have been discussing on this program and the presentations I've done it Various churches at Auburn University so on so forth that that material is going to be in the film.

It's going to be presented and the sad thing is I now that I think about it. The the man who says most of the worst stuff Probably really enjoyed saying it and that is actor sir Ian McKellen. Who plays?

Teabing in the film who also played the Gandalf he also plays Magneto in the X-Men Films so I imagine he is probably richer than a lot of countries are. Yeah, the critics liked him, I'm sure they would but He is an open avowed homosexual he I linked Dan Phillips sent me a link earlier today to His own website not Dan Phillips website to Ian McKellen's website where he discusses the fact that so when he goes into Hotel rooms if he looks in the in the little drawer there and finds that Gideon Bible He will rip Leviticus 18 22 out of those Bibles so that He is As he says can relax he doesn't want that to near him when he's trying to sleep and so he rips it out of the Bible and So I imagine he really enjoyed very much saying the things he's saying that someone in channel Just said yeah, and he's gonna be all the richer because of you well Using that kind of reasoning I would have no Mormon books in my library.

I'd have no Jehovah's Witness books in my library in fact I'd have nothing and almost nothing in my library that wasn't absolutely perfectly Orthodox. I would have none of that material that I need to utilize to be able to Give a response.

I would never have purchased the Da Vinci Code book itself because that added to Dan Brown's riches as well and I've you know many many years ago when I was building my LDS library. Someone basically said that well you're helping the Mormon Church by buying those books.

And I said well You know I sort of like to think that somewhere a air conditioner goes out. Every time I buy one of these books, and they have to fix it and therefore that they don't get helped by that.

But obviously I feel that it's significantly more important for someone in my position to have Original resources and to be able to address these things in a direct fashion. Than the six or seven bucks that the film is going to make off of me.

That's a that's a pretty small little little price to pay for being able to address the subject in a meaningful fashion. And to be able to report to you tomorrow Lord willing the amount of the same material that was in the book the The lies concerning Constantine the Bible etc.

How much of that is in there and How much of that is has been embellished and How much of that is Been diminished has anything been added has anything been deleted what has been added what the what was the spin on it so and so forth.

So I need to try to try to listen. It's gonna be difficult. Bart said is he richer than you not he is richer now because of you yay, okay, that's nice. That's sorry, that's still really silly Ian McKellen.

Something tells me that Hollywood actors make a little bit more than Reformed Baptist apologist. It's just a little you know just just a tad. Like he could buy me what are you talking about? Anyway silliness, uh, I imagine he enjoyed saying what he was saying and I will try to blog by tomorrow afternoon my My thoughts on the the entirety of the Da Vinci code stuff.

It was interesting this morning. Mentioned this I don't I'm missing the today show more and more and by the way the number eight seven seven seven five three. Three three four one. I'm missing the da Vinci show the today show.

Did I say the Da Vinci show? They showed the bitch right now. It's the same thing if you've been watching it because they've been on the trail of the grail and I'm missing it more and more because You've got a with with the temperature the way it is in Phoenix these days you've got to get on the bike and you've got to get on it early and You've got to get your rides done very very early or you'll have what happened to me happened to you.

Yesterday we did a long long ride 57 miles and by the time we got back was like 95 degrees and all the water in my bottle was like also 95 degrees and you just don't want to drink 95 degree water when it's 95 degrees.

It was terrible and So I need stringer glasses, okay. Let's just sort of watching the odd commentary going back so I've not been watching it as much as I have in the past when I'd be able to ride later in the day and Yesterday when they had this the the stars and Tom Howard Tom Howard, I don't think it's a Ron Howard Tom Howard.

Tom Howard is his older brother who didn't get to play Opie Tom Hanks and Ron Howard I was trying to think of the two guys that I can tell are really nervous about this. I don't you've been watching this but I've gotten the feeling these guys know they've got a stinker on their hands and What's worse is they've got a stinker on their hands with more publicity and they know what to do it and I mean some people actually said that.

At times it's next to impossible to understand the French actress in what she's saying in the film. And she says some stuff you can't if you don't understand what she's saying you're lost. So that in and of itself is a problem.

But anyway when McKellen said what he said about the Bible needing to have a Notice in the front that it's fiction a disclaimer in the front saying that it's fiction. The cat the camera was only on McKellen at that time, but of course they've all got microphones on and somebody gave this very nervous little laugh and you could tell it was a laugh coming from someone who's really trying to cover it and Realizing.

Oh No, this is a disaster. Did he have to say that and I don't know if it was Howard or if it was Hanks? That that said that but it was that did that get a little little laugh. But they you could just tell after that nobody wanted to touch that one with a 10-foot pole they were they were going into damage control almost almost immediately and so I Will be reporting on on all of that Lord willing tomorrow afternoon.

They today This was penance or what but they went from the Cannes Film Festival to the Vatican. There's there's Matt Lauer sitting in the Vatican with with some of the American Cardinals and bishops and stuff and I'm going ab I was there last year about this time and The fact it was almost exactly this time about exactly a year.

That is interesting and they were Talking about various various and sundry things, but they didn't really want to get into into the Da Vinci so much I mean the guy that talked about it did criticize it properly he focused on what was most important the stuff about Constantine and things like that, but It was it was funny to see the today show almost doing a mea culpa to the to the Vatican after doing this whole thing on the Holy Grail and all the rest of silliness as far as the Da Vinci Code was concerned.

So it it will be interesting to see what is going to take place after after all of this and then notice. Yes, I said various and sundry. I always say various and sundry. I do not say the the capstone the arch of Christianity.

So I say various and sundry everybody has their terms. Okay. It's just the way things work. I Someone in channel mentioned, and I I don't know I just I just mentioned on my blog Randall Terry the founder of Operation rescue has Crossed the Tiber River.

He is now a Roman Catholic of course you start. He was a charismatic Episcopalian which is basically and emotional popeless Catholic anyways. So So he wasn't that far that far down the road as as it was but it was interesting reading some of the article I linked it off the blog and Obviously you go back to 1994 1994.

You have Evangelicals and Catholics together ECT and when I responded that long Long ago. This is back before blogs. This is back when you actually wrote stuff in in a thing called the dividing line newsletter.

Which you then had to print and you had to fold and you had to address and you had to bulk mail. And I think we eventually put it on the web I'm not sure once we we got this that odd web thing going I Mentioned at the time.

What is the primary driving? factor in regards to this kind of ecumenical dialogue and ecumenical a compromise and What causes people who? Start off with a strong commitment to biblical truth to to see them compromise that over time.

What is it and in many situations What what you have going on is Cultural cobelligerence resulting in a shifting of perspective and a shifting of of attitudes and a shifting of priorities and Basically when you've stood outside of a an abortion clinic together with somebody you've now created a bond and you like this person and you share your concern about the unborn and therefore Whether a person is justified by grace alone and faith alone or justified by grace through faith but with other things just doesn't seem to be as important an idea and of course in a postmodern society almost nobody thinks that's very important anymore and That is the the background.

That's what leads to this and when you read Randall Terry's story That's you see it written in between every other line. Is this this activity this cobelligerence leading eventually to crossing of of the Tiber River?

Into the fullness of Roman Catholic Communion Etc. Etc. So that that is linked on the blog as as well. So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number that you can call.

I'm sure someone would like me to move from here to any developments that have taken place in the October 16th debate Scheduled for Lynchburg, Virginia, and we'd love to do that right now. But actually we need to take a break.

Yes, we have do we have new commercials? No, but we still need to do it. Anyways, so here now is the old commercial music Such a rare.

Today. Many stars strong and true quickly fall away.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called Extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omin org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same-sex Controversy.

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omin org.

Now the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way it's a journey. And welcome back from that scintillating break.

Actually during that entire time rich was rich was designing a a whole new a whole new. You know you want me to try the the first part of that you want you're gonna try the first part of that. Ergin caner, what does he really want?

Canner that's right. I can't I say caner was well too because we all did that one time. That's a canner. Actually, I dramatic music dramatic music. What's this? I'm done. And what would be we be selling with this?

Well, then we'd put the Alaska commercial right after Mike Alaska might well you'd have Mike going. So what you're saying is Ergin caner wants, Alaska, I think he needs a vacation. I really do. After the after the correspondence we've had recently.

Yeah, yeah. Well I think they've they're clearly overdue. Well, I don't know emir's been he's only he's only said as to two emails the whole time. Yeah, I've been fairly really quiet so anyway speaking of which Any developments not much.

The last that we were mentioning the last time when Tom Askew was with me was that We well you saw everything that we had posted and again I very very very much appreciate those who? Took the time to Put that into a PDF because it's a whole lot easier to read than the HTML format that was that was Posted up there originally, but anyway That was everything up until Sunday night Monday morning and the only other Correspondence that has taken place has been my attempting to Contact dr. O'Donnell who is the head of the debate department?

With the questions that you did read in the literature that you looked at and Specifically I have questions about this form of debate this parliamentary form of debate. Because unless I'm missing something there is almost no opportunity for meaningful cross-examination.

There is almost no opportunity for Anyone to really ask. I mean there is these called points of information and you can yield during presentations To to answer a point of information but the idea of actually having that give-and-take and everyone agrees that's where Debate takes place is when you have the back-and-forth.

I mean think about the debates we've done in the past think about the debate with with Stravinsky's and getting into the text and asking him who is the blessed man and Here you have this this Roman Catholic priest 2p2 doctorates and He responds by saying the blessed man of Romans 4 7 and 8 Blesses a man whose sins the Lord will not impute to him is Jesus.

I Mean there's there's just no way to defend that kind of Viewpoint and that comes out only in Cross-examination. One side can answer questions one side can answer consistently one side can answer biblically and When the other side can't that illustrates what the issue is and I I've said many times I Would love to get these folks who are so confident in their denunciation of reformed theology to sit down for an hour of cross-examination and let's Let's start through John.