February 16, 2016 Show with Anthony Uvenio & Nick Mitchell of New York Apologetics plus Frank Turek on “STEALING FROM GOD: Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on

the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the

16th day of February 2016 and I'm very excited today and I know

I use that line a lot but it is always true I can assure you but I am excited today

especially since I have three men on today for the very first time who have never

been on Iron Sharpens Iron.

First for the first hour we have Anthony Uvinio and Nick Mitchell who have

a grassroots apologetics ministry that they founded a number of years ago called New York

Apologetics.

You may be wondering can anything good come out of New York?

Well I think this is one thing that that is a very valuable tool that God is using and

will continue to use.

And then in the second hour as you may know from the publicity that

began before the show started we have Frank Turek who is a

world -renowned apologist and he is going to be on to speak about his

book Stealing from God Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case and other matters in

general regarding apologetics and we hope that you stay tuned for the second hour for that as

well.

But first of all let me welcome you both for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Anthony Uvinio and Nick Mitchell.

Thanks for having us on Chris.

We really yeah really great.

Thank you for having us on Chris.

And I'd like to introduce both of you to my dear friend Reverend Buzz Taylor,

John Busby Taylor who is a retired pastor and now fills in

whenever he is available as co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron.

He has served in Baptist churches, Pentecostal and Charismatic churches,

Finley Ohio Church of God congregations and a Presbyterian church as their pastor

and I think his next congregation is going to be Swedenborgianist right?

They just never know where next.

But welcome to back as a co -host Buzz Taylor and say.

Give a greeting to our guests today.

Well it's good to meet you on the air and I'm looking forward to the conversation.

It's certainly an interesting one to me.

I've been involved in apologetics obviously as a pastor for a number of years and I think it's going to be

a good show.

Well before we even get into your personal testimonies which is

where I'd like a lot of our discussion to start before that I would like you

both.

Perhaps we could start with Anthony giving a description of New

York Apologetics.

And how this all began.

And when it began.

Well New York Apologetics is an organization dedicated

to full debate.

And after the debate went well we had so many people coming up to us and Nick

and I put our heads together.

And that debate

that you had I saw that you did an excellent job.

I was.

I hope you don't take this as an insult but I was pleasantly surprised.

Now I don't mean that I had.

I don't mean that because I had a pessimistic view of you before that but because of the fact that I knew you that you

weren't a trained and experienced apologist in that sense of being involved in you know a

lot of debates up your sleeve and so on.

And I was very happy to see that you refrained from throwing food at this debate though so that.

Was a good and that was a female university professor correct?

Yes Dr. Amy Karofsky she's.

A philosophy professor.

Yeah wow she really folded up like a map.

I mean she was she was it was really an unprepared

job on her part as far as I'm concerned and I hope she is not insulted if she's listening but I couldn't help but

be jolted by that.

But and Nick Mitchell how did you and Anthony come to even meet

to begin with?

I know that New York Apologetics is really based on the pillar

truths of the faith that you guys have in common but I know that you disagree from time to time because you do come from

somewhat different theological backgrounds and church backgrounds so tell us how you guys got together.

Well.

Originally I had I had been put out.

Told by the teacher?

Yeah yeah but

this is this is before the movie came out

going back five years ago.

Before which movie?

Before the movie the apologetics movie God's Not Dead.

Oh yeah sure I saw that.

Yeah that was sort of the scenario of the movie but I actually lived through it and I thought to myself

wow you know what it'd be great to have some good talk about our faith

of God through philosophy science.

And so that gave

birth

to the New York Apologetics?

Well what happened is I started teaching in the church.

I started studying and teaching apologetics after a while and one of the one

told me that she knew and I said wow

can you introduce me to him.

I'd love to sort of tag along with him and she connected us and we wound up sort of training each other

and that and that was is not just to teach

but to teach.

Teaching is kind of like

really we're all about putting this information in the hands of regular and

also to allow

be a viable answer.

Right and I know that there is very often a time and place.

In fact maybe most often it is the appropriate route

to take to have people who are more in lockstep and are mirror

images of each other and when it comes to theology when they are teaming up for an apologetics group

or ministry.

But I think there is a great value because it demonstrates the love of

Christ that conquers all.

When you have two guys like you who are in agreement as I was saying before on the core issues of

faith but you do have differences of opinion in other areas of church life and I think that this is

a good testimony that Christians can passionately believe in something

but they can know what priorities to place those truths and

doctrines and not use them as battering rams to

beat their brothers over the head with and to unnecessarily cause division.

And I understand that I say this very nervously because we live in a day and age where

people look for any excuse to put theology and doctrine on the bottom shelf of

importance as if it doesn't matter not knowing that every time you open your mouth and describe anything within

the Bible or about God you're speaking doctrine or theology it's either just good or bad.

Well you know Chris this sounds very familiar because.

It's the same thing with us.

We certainly have our differences too but we have many many hours of conversation about things that

where we are in agreement and of course that's when you're up against

somebody who doesn't agree with you.

It forces you to really learn to defend your own position very well and I think I'm

holding up to you very well actually.

But you know it dawned on me that when I hear the word

New York apologetics you know the first thing that came to my mind is you know like you have your own style of pizza now you

have your own style of apologetics you know what is this thing about New York you

know?

Well actually it goes like this.

Right so I'm wondering if we should just back up a step here and I'm sure that most of the listeners already know

the answer to this but perhaps we should at least define what apologetics.

Actually is.

That's a good idea Buzz.

Excellent idea if you could either one or both of you.

Okay so apologetics but

it's not so

much that we want

to defend.

Defend what we believe give account for what we've been

asking and farther

imagine

going

into

a classroom

coming here.

We're looking for what comes about by observation or the sciences.

So can you just leave your faith at the door.

They never go back to the church and mention that they just sort of soak quietly in the corner and think to themselves you know what what were we

told all these years by then.

It's almost too late.

So I think apologetics from the standpoint of a defense in that regard can help.

Then before they get into that position.

I think Frank does a great job with that as well as getting this information into their hands and I'm sure I'll explain that to you.

But that is really our goal.

Our goal is to prepare the saints.

And Anthony if you could comment on the aspect that.

I was talking about the value that you may see in having an organization where

one of your team at least a primary part of your team.

There has many differences from you in some regard.

Oh yeah it just it keeps me on my toes that's for

sure.

I appreciate

all his.

The more we struggle

get to see things from a different wouldn't be able to see outside of

my relationship with him.

And the wonderful thing is we get to do it in love you know we we set our our flesh aside and

we we come to the scriptures and we truly wrestle.

Your flesh does give a reminder

that we don't know it all.

We all see through a glass dimly.

So the way I like to describe me and Nick we're there.

We're the Dr. James White and Dr. Michael Brown of New York only.

We're about 100 pounds heavier each and 100 IQ point lighter

each.

That's a New York pizza again.

Besides those two things were identical.

And of course as you probably know just as much as I do having a

relationship like that where you have differences of opinion and

yet cooperate in ministry can get you a lot of negative feedback from even well

-meaning brethren.

Christ.

Like brethren in Christ.

Like I know that our mutual friend Dr. James R. White he does get some really heavy

-duty negative feedback from his like -minded brethren.

And in faith over his cooperation with Michael Brown because of some of the

people that Michael Brown has appeared with on a platform especially I think.

But have you gotten any negative feedback that you've had to deal with.

Me personally no I mean anybody.

Why would

you.

Theologically.

And I

would say we're united on the essentials.

You know it's not like I'm working with a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon.

And we're we're not on the same page with the gospel.

I mean you know my friend Nick I trust and respect him.

Um explicitly I mean he's he's like I said a careful thinker.

And we are united on the gospel.

It is only through the name of Jesus that we are safe

him alone that we have salvation.

So we can be united on on the essentials and the other peripheral things.

Those are things that we work out.

And honestly I I've become a better uh theologian so to speak in

listening to him and being more careful when I say something with

and Nick uh have you ever

gotten any.

Negative feedback for being linked arm and arm with somebody from the frozen chosen.

Out.

Not really mostly all

those that I've introduced.

Anthony.

We see him you know as a brother in Christ and I think they leave

it there.

I really haven't had that pushback.

Not yet anyway.

So uh so far in the uh the brief time that I've really gotten to know

about New York apologetics and I was very honored that you guys had me

serve as your moderator at Stony Brook University when Frank Turek debated Dr.

Michael Shermer.

And that was uh.

How long ago was that at Stony Brook University.

That was April of last year.

Yeah uh.

Well it seems that the ministry that you guys have at least for now focuses

on those who either believe God does not exist with certainty as the

atheists or their agnostics they are uncertain whether he exists or not and

those from the uh academic realm that that believe the

creation or intelligent design is mythology legend

and even dangerous fairy tales that we should not be polluting our children with.

These are the kinds of people that you are.

Combating against.

Uh from what I can see so far.

Yes so far Chris

God has opened the

philosophical scientific or forensic level for the existence of God.

You know most time teachers tell people well

the bible says tell they've chosen.

Well the bible says to see uh the actual evidence

outside of scripture.

Look out whether we look through a telescope or a microscope at all points

that God created it will tie back into him because he's created

this for his glory.

By the way I saw.

Not long ago uh in fact I think it was not long after Bill Nye debated

Ken Ham.

I saw him on uh the Seth Meyers show uh

I think it's called Late Night with Seth Meyers and um he was actually

rousing up the audience to uh you know unite together to

see if they could ban Christian involvement in local

school boards everywhere across the nation.

Because he viewed the Christian contribution to public education as a

pariah as a danger.

And he actually had the the uh breathtakingly

asinine and moronic goal to say that Christians involved

or should I say uh those who believe in intelligent design and creationists involved in school boards

will lead to children graduating from school ignorant

and less capable of entering into the scientific field.

Uh they will they will destroy their uh abilities for being the future inventors of

tomorrow.

And therefore we will never solve world hunger.

And it needs a history lesson.

You know this this

like yeah

yeah

if you remember right and uh

exactly upside sort of

atheists and in that

anybody who is to be marginalized

politically and all of that I think I think

and this is being mentioned in

the textbooks now thanks to like Stephen Meyer and Michael B.

Yeah they they defend their anti -christian ideology although they would never

call it that but it is clearly anti -biblical anti -christian ideology.

They defend it with the fervor of a religious zealot.

They are defending a religion whether they care to acknowledge it.

Or not it's just a false religion.

It's an evil religion.

Yeah you know you know they when they say and

then they go on to say that a group of people should not be allowed to vote

that's really a personal attack.

It's not dealing with um someone's theology.

It's actually dealing with.

The person that to me is the scariest statement of all and uh

uh reverend buzz uh you've had a lot of experience in the pastoral realm.

Uh what is it that you have found over the years that your average christian in the

pew may be totally ignorant about and totally unequipped to face

a world around them ready to put their beliefs through the shredder.

Well not my pews.

Yeah but i i really think it

needs to be part of the entire program of a church to uh to teach apologetics.

In fact um even where i am now i had a i was able to teach a quarterly uh sunday school lesson

on apologetics.

Because yeah people aren't equipped very much or you know.

And and with really everything that's out there now it's amazing.

Um you know i'm constantly brought back to the um the uh one of my favorite quotes.

Now here i'm calling it my favorite and i'm probably going to butcher it.

But uh pascal you know uh that uh false truth is so obscure in these times and

falsehood.

So uh was it entrenched that unless we love the truth we cannot know it.

And uh the chances of people hearing a good defense of the gospel is so

rare now uh.

And this is why i'm interested in.

Like when i was joking before about your you know new york style pizza you started to say um

you do have your own style.

I'm kind of curious.

What is your daily activity.

Like now you said you go to college campuses.

So i understand that how do you approach people.

Or how do you determine who to approach uh what exactly do you do in your ministry.

Yeah

take a

minute youth leaders

from around and what we did was we shared with them

uh maybe uh to just whet their appetite

and to show them that there are legit like we

sort of black and white.

We give them that information especially the younger people.

They are the ones who reach out and get a hold of you.

I can't tell you how many people have reached out and just in the last uh the last week or

so i'm going to say 84 churches have reached out to us

and uh wasn't for their hands on the information.

There's a real hunger out there.

It's just a matter of bringing it to them and giving it to them in a way that they can

digest it and i think that is apologetics.

We're just two plain guys.

Right.

Yeah yeah.

We have to go to break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside

of the usa.

And uh please only remain anonymous if your question revolves a personal and private matter that

involves the necessity of you not revealing your identity.

So that's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back with anthony and nick of new york.

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Welcome back.

This is chris.

Arnson if you just tuned us in our first two guests for the day are anthony

eugenio and nick mitchell of new york apologetics.

Their website is new york apologetics .com.

And that those two words new york are actually spelled out new york n -e -w

-y -o -r -k apologetics .com.

They are talking about their grassroots apologetics ministry trying to get the ordinary and average

christian more involved in defending their faith as the scriptures

command them to do.

And we also have in studio once again my co -host reverend buzz taylor.

And buzz taylor has been a pastor for a number of years and is now retired and we look

forward to his contribution to the discussion as well.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnson

at gmail .com.

That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the usa.

Uh we have a listener in lindenhurst long island cj who asks what

are the primary things that a lost person needs to know about the gospel

in order for them to receive eternal life.

Either one of you may start with that question.

Go ahead.

Well first of all you need to know that god exists a

reason since of god is is primary and

you know we can

demonstrate

that

sin

that's

what god to the person to a moral law.

If god exists in a moral law would exist and we all

shorten us life

provided his son jesus as he

adopts us.

Uh i don't know if you

have

anything further to add.

Nick it's up to you.

Um actually no i think he hasn't.

He covered it.

Okay we were.

In agreement.

Yeah.

Look at that.

We do have harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania who says

uh don't you think that.

One of the prevalent mistakes that christians do when reaching out to the lost is using

buzzwords and phrases and christian vocabulary that the average person doesn't.

Have a clue what you're speaking about.

Yeah um yeah yeah i would

like for instance even.

Somebody's saying to you do you know if you're saved or lost.

Even those simple phrases a person might not even know what on earth you're talking about.

Yeah i live right around the corner 34.

Smith street.

Well i'm not lost.

What are you

talking about.

You know a lot of times it's of nazareth.

Why.

Because it puts feet on

jesus with

a with an

unbeliever.

I talk about my convictions.

These are these are what i'm this.

Um i i don't i use the word

from what what or my

disobedience.

That would be the quake.

We have to be very sensitive to the people we're talking to because they've heard these words.

Different

words to

get them to

eat.

Yeah.

Are you kidding me.

Or invade these truths to people

in a way that they can understand without making them feel.

The gospel is an offense.

We don't have to be in effect.

We have to be sensitive to people and and reach.

Them where they're at.

Uh arnie in perry county pennsylvania wants to know isn't uh an equally uh

serious error that christians often make is making the gospel far more

palatable and sweet and easy than the circumstances

really involve.

People need to know that they're actually going.

To hell if they don't repent do they not get it

uh.

Nick oh yeah i think yeah i think that

yeah it's

just so

it's on

the wife

and he comes home

and she's just really

upset and irate with him.

So what he does is he goes out and he he begins to work at a he

works there for a week or two and then he comes back and he's looking on you know what i've worked at the soup kitchen for a couple

of weeks and uh

are we

good i'm out

of

that.

So that requires obviously the blood of.

Christ to cover that person in order for them to be viewed as righteous by god himself otherwise

they are going to receive the wrath of god upon them.

Am i right.

Yeah that would be absolutely.

Correct.

So the gospel message is a message of being

from god to god.

Yes that's a good way of.

Putting it that you very rarely hear that saved from god to god because god is the one that is.

Punishing people in hell.

Well it's interesting.

The last two questions.

Kind of really you think of them together.

The answer is yes and yes.

Um at some point yes.

Uh i've heard of you know cloaking the the gospel in secular terms so much that

you begin to wonder if there's any gospel left to it.

You know.

Right.

But on the other hand uh people do not understand.

You know i don't approach them with a king james version of the bible you know.

And all the big words and so forth.

You know uh.

Because they they do need to understand the message.

About a third of my audience just turn.

This show off.

Yes yes of course.

But you know yes they they do need to understand uh what is being said and uh you know that's a tough balance to strike

because uh you know you need you need both they do need to understand it but you know i'm i'm encouraged though by

the fact that the gospel is the power of god the salvation of everyone that believes.

And you know uh hearing the word of god is what's going to convert them ultimately.

And uh you know god for generations many many generations has gotten through many

language barriers cultural barriers and he's reached the.

People yeah well obviously what you have it seems to me that many of the

most successful and i use that term loosely successful uh media

evangelists tape the tv and radio evangelists and authors who are the best

-selling authors.

Many of them have made the mission of jesus christ to make this

life on earth more wonderful for the viewer or the reader or the listener

uh not to save them from the uh curse of

sin and the wrath of god.

And uh therefore it's really uh like for instance i

just saw joel wallstein on a talk program and the host said do you need to be a christian

to get uh learn the benefits of of the principles in this book that you've

written.

Oh no.

No of course not you don't.

You don't need to be a christian to benefit from it.

I mean uh this man his main reason for living is supposed to be that he's a minister of the gospel.

And obviously uh if this is just a matter of making you a better husband a

better father a better boss and a better employee and a happier person there are other voices

out there that may give quicker results to those those

questions.

And people will still wind up being shocked on judgment day as those were in matthew 7

who thought they were doing wonderful things in the name of the lord but were going into hell i mean don't you think

that the the entire message that seems to be polluting the airwaves uh in

regard to the so -called christian faith is one of making this life better now

without the giving the the bad news of hell and damnation

that people.

Need to be rescued from in the first place.

Yeah chris.

Absolutely.

And you know what i what i tell people is if you want your best god

will give it to you life will be behind you not ahead of you.

He's giving you your best life you

know.

Um john mccarthur said uh if your best life is now that.

Means you're going to hell because obviously that's true.

If you're saying your best life is now in the year and now on this earth how the

heck could the life be better for you in eternity.

Yeah i'm sorry i interrupted you there.

No that's okay.

Um you know i think what that's what is uh promoted and

spoken about.

And what it really should be is not god's wonderful plan for your life but your life.

For god's wonderful plan.

He's rescued you he you

deny yourself pick up your cross and follow him.

And exactly what these prosperity teachers are trying to get around.

They want their cake and eat it too.

They want to be fulfilled.

And god came to give you a life life more abundantly.

And that means richard house caught the exact opposite

of of the way jesus lived.

He didn't have any money.

He didn't have a place to lay his head.

Uh so we're to emulate our savior we're to deny ourselves which involves

sacrifice and picking up your cross.

He's intentional.

It's not something that you

know i wake up presentations my flesh doesn't

want to do them sometimes.

Look at where god

to whom much is given much is required.

I will never be able to take out back for what he's done for me.

Take the talents gifts and

abilities he's given me

a country.

You know the american.

And pointing people to the cross because

most people look and say wow look at what jesus did.

My goodness.

This is a magnificent love for you.

And that's true.

But the opposite is true.

The cross.

All the awfulness and the wickedness of sin that god would have to crucify his

own son in order to pay the penalty for it.

So it's not just god's love that we see on the cross.

We also see god's wrath.

And the minute you you don't mention one of those two things.

You're giving them a half truth.

And we know that a half truth that's not the whole truth is an untruth.

It is god's love is so magnificent for sinners that he would crucify his son.

But the penalty and the awfulness and wickedness of sin.

You know one of the things that uh can be most frustrating when you are

evangelizing in public uh and you're you know involved in a in a situation where there can be

a free -for -all it's not a uh a rigidly timed thing like a debate is

it's something where you're just in a street corner or a park or a beach or what have you

uh is uh people who are salivating at the opportunity to try to tie up a christian

in knots.

And they have a whole list of rabbit trails that they want to lure the evangelist down.

So the actual focus of the subject the person's soul yes

uh his never -dying soul and the righteous and holy god who will judge him are not

even uh really the heart of the discussion.

They will bring up all kinds of things to deflect that.

How do you guys keep the uh the uh discussion

focused.

Where it should be.

When when things like that happen.

And i'm sure you're not perfect at it as nobody is.

But what is the best tactic to keep it focused.

We have our own from skeptics

mostly and we deal a lot with skeptics you

know that don't believe in god and and we get several questions that

ask for example in talking about evolution and and sort of speaking out that's not

observable at one.

If you don't see that evolution

what about your belief in god.

How do you believe in god if you know.

Which is a another good question

you know.

Like uh you

know one atheist

puts it it's uh.

And um they would they would adhere and say that their faith is

well.

Can you prove even god.

Can god make a rock so that

he can't lift it.

How can.

Yeah we look we look forward to each one of these questions.

We um would gladly feel move it right towards god because we think

that god so so.

In other words you take advantage of.

The uh rabbit trail.

You you actually go uh surfing in a mosh pit with the rabbit trail or do you.

Or i mean don't you.

Don't you think that you should.

I don't know exactly how to answer don't you think they should be uh uh like it

putting up a roadblock uh at some point because sometimes those rabbit trails really lead to nowhere

exactly where the the antagonist wants.

Them to

to wind up if

it's a if it's a

if.

We recognize that we believe

that noah fit all of on the

ark.

So one of the tactics that we use to to

slow down the onslaught of questions and reverse the burden of proof is just

so when the person says um if god is so good and loving why is there all this evil in the world.

A good question that we like to ask people is what do you mean by evil.

Yeah now he has to stop.

He made the statement that there's evil in the world.

What is

evil.

Do you have signs that exist or is this just your opinion.

Now he's in the hot seat and i can direct this conversation anywhere i wanted to go.

As long as i you'd be surprised just how

how point where it applied

to his.

Before we have our

guests give a

summary of what they.

Most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

Uh reverend buzz you have any final questions you'd like to ask before we have them.

Uh give them the floor to summarize their well.

I'm just having a little bit of a deja vu here because uh the very things that they are bringing up i've

encountered with people in just the last few months.

Yes.

Yes uh not that i you know talk to a lot of people uh daily.

But uh yeah.

But these other things that come up and uh uh you know you've got to keep turning it right back to the fact that look

um first of all i've already won the argument because we are in agreement.

Um you know you i the book of romans says you know that the ungodly suppress the

truth in unrighteousness.

And when you're presenting the truth of the gospel they know that it's true.

They know that they're sinners.

They know that there is a god that they are accountable to.

You have to keep bringing them back to that.

And that's that's that's my point.

Yeah to uh quickly get get past the questions.

Let alone even your questioning isn't good you know because you're simply resisting what you already know you have to do.

You know god has commanded all men everywhere to repent.

And you know your questions are simply trying to uh divert that command.

And uh you know think that i'm all right or whatever else.

You know.

But yeah you've got to get right back because they will take you on those trails all the time.

So you also always get back to their soul their soul.

How are they before god.

What are they going to say when they meet god.

Well i don't believe god exists.

Well what are you going to say when you.

You know you know i like the way one guy said do you think god knows you're an atheist.

Well i'd like you guys to give our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave the program.

You could each take your turns.

And anthony why don't we.

Start with you.

Yeah sure.

Well i want people to know that.

Uh we have an organization set up in the new york area.

The northeast is devoid of apologists.

But you you have a resource.

Check out the website there's a lot of great information there.

Uh email us your questions

on hope

radio 94 .9 any

anywhere where anybody.

Once you walk on that

university campus you are immediately a target and you talk out of

your faith.

My goal is

obviously to see

souls one.

And i know that uh hope radio also live streams so people can listen to your program at

hope radio ny .com.

Hope radio ny .com and what what day and time was it again.

Your program uh saturday and.

Sunday mornings at 8 a .m.

Great.

And uh nick if you could i always say first of all everything anthony said i think

is we really and you're

having a difficult time if you can't articulate your faith.

If you if you feel like you need that

support you can contact us which

is great but

you can be used by god in school and in the workplace

on the college campuses we will have you.

And that's really our heart's desire to equip the christian to be able to be part of the

solution.

And i know that your website is new york apologetics .com that's new york spelled out n -e -w -y -o -r -k

apologetics .com and you could look into that website for upcoming events public debates and other things that are

going on.

Thank you anthony eugenio and nick mitchell.

I look forward to having you both back in the program very soon.

Thanks again chris.

God bless.

You god bless you.

Thank you chris and nice to meet you both.

Good to meet you too.

Thank you.

All right god bless you both and coming up next we are going to have frank turic

who is a world renowned apologist and if you don't go away you'll be hearing what

frank turic has to say about how atheists are stealing from god.

Sounds like a interesting concept so if you don't go away we're going to be right back

after these messages with frank turic and a discussion on.

His book stealing from god

i'm james white of alpha omega ministries.

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Hi.

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Providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back if you've just tuned us in.

Our guest for the next hour is world -renowned christian apologist frank turk.

Many of you have seen him on the nrb television network and you've read his books and we're

going to be talking about not only his books stealing from god but a bunch of other things on today's program

and we welcome you for the very first.

Time to iron sharpens iron.

Frank turk.

Hey chris.

Thanks uh for having me on hope you're doing well.

Up there in long island.

Yes uh i'm a little bit under the weather right now but god has given me uh strength

to uh do the show today and i thank him for that.

And uh tell our listeners a little bit about yourself before becoming

a world -renowned apologist.

Tell us something about your own personal testimony of coming to faith in christ.

Well i came.

I grew up in new jersey by the.

Way just uh i'm sure you've heard of that it's not far from where you live.

Yes.

And uh it's not not far from long island.

I grew up a met fan a giant fan a jet fan.

You know.

Still you didn't have any teams of your own.

That's why that's right i did.

Well the jets and the giants are now playing in new jersey.

Yes there you go.

In any event.

Um i was brought up in the catholic church and i always believed in god.

I never had any problem with god.

But i never really knew who jesus was.

And it wasn't until i got into the navy after college.

And by the way navy stands for never again volunteer yourself.

Um that i i ran into a guy who was the son of a methodist minister and i had a lot of

questions for him about christianity.

He actually took me to a baptist service and i thought it was interesting that i actually learned quite a bit in there because you know it was some music

and then about 40 minutes of preaching.

I'd never experienced that in my life before.

Normally the homily in a catholic service as you know was six or seven minutes.

And so i was like wow i'm learning something here.

But i had a lot of questions so i kept asking him questions and he finally said well you know you need to get these books by josh mcdowell

evidence demands a verdict in more than a carpenter.

And so i did and actually came to faith by reading books like that.

And then after the navy when i met norman geisler who turned out to be the michael

jordan of apologetics.

Um he had started a seminary down here in charlotte where i live now.

And so we moved down here back in 1993 to attend the seminary and since that

point i've been involved in apologetics and written a few books and now have a ministry called

cross examined .org.

That's cross examined with a d on the end of it .org and we have an app that people can download from the app store for free.

And there's a lot of videos on our website that people can look at for free.

And articles and blogs and so check that out cross examined .org

cross examined .org and hopefully.

We'll repeat that throughout the interview and i'd like to introduce frank to my co -host today

uh reverend buzz taylor.

Uh reverend buzz taylor has had experience pastoring churches uh in the baptist

realm charismatic pentecostal uh uh finley ohio church of god and presbyterian

churches and um and it's an honor and privilege to have him sitting in with us for this discussion

today.

Uh and why don't you two greet each other.

Well hello good to meet you.

Well it's perfect.

A.

Guy named buzz.

Yes.

And you were putting a buzz through every denomination.

Yeah that's right.

Yes that's perfect.

I have a cousin named buzz.

I was just out there in california with him last week.

And does he spell it with one or two z's two.

Oh see i only spell it with one because i tell everybody if it's two z's it's a sound effect.

If it's one z it's a name.

So besides which in genesis 22 21 buzzes in the bible with one z is it.

Oh yes.

Wow i did not know that i'm gonna have.

To drop a name and lop a letter off his name from now on.

Yes of course.

Well uh we already had.

Our first two guests who you know very well uh anthony uvinio and nick mitchell they the forget

about it they defined uh apologetics but people may be

tuning in for the first time.

Right now why don't you define apologetics.

Well it's basically giving evidence for what you believe it comes from in the bible.

It comes from first peter 3 15.

The greek word is apology or apologia.

It doesn't mean you're saying you're sorry.

It means you're giving evidence for why you believe the bible is true.

Why you believe god exists.

Why you believe jesus rose from the dead.

And this is commanded in scripture.

In first peter 3 15 says.

Always ready to give an answer for the hope that you have.

But do this with gentleness and respect which is hard for me.

The second part gentleness and respect because i am originally from new jersey.

But in any event we're supposed to do this.

We're supposed to love the lord your god with all your heart soul strength and mind.

Christians don't get brownie points for being stupid.

Paul says that we're supposed to uh destroy every argument against the christian faith and

take every thought captive to christ.

So this is this is commanded and it makes sense to do.

I'm going to repeat our email address.

It's chris.

At gmail .com.

Chris a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com if you have a question for frank turek

on anything regarding the christian faith specifically about apologetics in the realm of

uh defending the faith with atheists.

Perhaps you're an atheist yourself or an agnostic.

Or you just uh.

You just don't know.

Yeah you just don't know.

You're a wandering person uh trying to find truth in this world.

And that's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

You can remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter.

Uh.

In fact if it is about a personal private matter we encourage you to be anonymous.

But if it's just a general question please give us at least your first name city and state and country of

residence.

And uh this is an interesting book.

I'm sure that 99 percent of the people who see at least 99

percent of christians who see the book on the shelf stealing from god.

Oh another book about time.

I was gonna say it's gonna be refreshing me or something like that.

It's about tithing or something uh.

But.

But what.

Why atheists need to need god to make their case.

That's a fascinating concept.

Why don't you explain that.

Yeah.

It's not.

About tithing not that there's anything wrong with tithing but as you see the subtitle on there is why atheists need god

to make their case.

And my point is is that most atheists today are materialists.

In other words they believe everything that exists is made of molecules.

There is no immaterial realm.

There are no supernatural entities and so everything's made of molecules.

And atheists have all these arguments against god that unfortunately for them are immaterial.

And so whenever they make an argument against god they are stealing from god in order to say he

doesn't exist.

Let me just give you one example.

Um atheists say they're beacons of reason right.

That they are reasonable people and and uh they're the ones following reason.

Yet on the other hand they're materialists.

They think we're nothing but moist robots that were just molecular machines.

Well if we're just molecular machines and every thought we have is governed by the laws of physics

and as a result of the laws of physics and nothing else then why should we believe anything we

think including the thought that atheism is true.

So when atheists try and make arguments against god they're actually stealing the very concept of

reason from god in order to say he doesn't exist.

I talked about this as you know chris because you moderated the debate between michael schirmer and i back in april there at stony brook

and uh during the cross examination really schirmer didn't have any answer for this because there is no answer for this.

You know if you're claiming to be a materialist and you're claiming really you're just a moist robot then why should i believe anything you

say.

Because you're not really thinking.

You're just reacting.

You're not being reasonable.

You're you're no different than.

A coke can fizzing right.

And uh i think that you would agree that the major area where this is true

especially lies in the different the differentiation between what is right and

wrong.

They can have no concept of right and wrong can they.

Well in fact that's another aspect of the.

Book.

And that the book is the book is called stealing from god.

Why atheists need god to make their case.

And it's built around this acronym crime c -r -i -m -e -s.

And each letter stands for a different aspect of reality that atheists often use to

claim atheism is true.

Yet none of those things would exist unless theism were true.

And the m in crime stands for morality.

That's what you were just talking about.

Chris.

Yeah there.

There can't be anything ultimately wrong with it with with anything unless god exists.

I mean if there is no god then torturing babies for fun isn't really wrong.

It's just your opinion because there's no moral authority beyond you or me.

Or it's not really wrong to murder six million jews in a holocaust.

That's just your opinion against hitler's opinion.

You see in order to say that something's really right or wrong there has to be a moral authority a moral standard of goodness.

And any deviation from that standard would be evil or wrong.

Well that standard doesn't exist in an atheistic worldview.

Remember we're just molecules in motion.

Yet atheists have all sorts of moral things they believe in.

In fact michael schirmer at our debate was trying to say same -sex marriage was a good thing.

Well there's no such thing as good or bad even if atheism is true including same -sex marriage natural marriage.

Whatever.

Yeah.

Or marriage.

Yeah yeah.

And in fact they would even go to the lengths as christopher hitchens the late christopher hitchens did.

And of course he knows better now.

Uh he uh called the new.

Testament evil.

Yeah he has no ground to claim it evil.

In fact i had a couple of debates with christopher.

They can be seen for free on our website cross examined dot org.

That's cross examined with a d on the end of it.

He was brilliant by the way very articulate and since he had a accent he sounded even more brilliant than he really was you

know.

But he didn't really have arguments.

Mostly most atheists don't have arguments.

What they have are complaints about.

How god is running the universe.

Yeah i had the uh the privilege of having a discussion with christopher not long before he died.

Uh he had agreed to participate in a debate on long island with my friend dr james r white of

alpha omega ministries and then he had to pull out of the debate when the

esophageal cancer was diagnosed.

I think that's what it was that he had.

And uh but i i had actually a very cordial and humorous conversation with him.

And i i can remember him making fun of his agent's name.

He said.

Uh you can speak to my agent jessica fee.

That's a great name for an agent isn't it.

Fee.

F ee.

But he.

Uh but he was uh you know very warm.

I was surprised by that because i've seen him be very brutal with uh christians on tv and right.

But um one of the things that uh david silverman who is the

president of american atheists the organization madeline murray o 'hair founded in the 60s

i believe uh david silverman when he took christopher hitchens

place in that debate on is the new testament evil which was actually the theme.

Uh he had to admit just as you said that if if he was being

marched through the gates of auschwitz and and our listeners should be reminded that david silverman is an

atheist jew he's of jewish ethnicity.

Uh if you were being marched through the gates of auschwitz the only thing that you could really say in

protest is that i find this personally offensive.

And he admitted yes.

Yeah well in fact i i had a similar debate with silverman and he said the same thing in our debate

we have actually have a clip on our website over he basically said that the holocaust was just you

know he's honest that if atheism is true there is no real objective

rightness which means there can be no objective wrongness.

The problem is it's more obvious that torturing babies for fun is wrong than it

is that atheism is true right.

So if torturing babies for fun is wrong then god exists.

Yes and he he actually silverman did give a criteria for what was right and wrong what any given

population believes in the majority in any different uh any given era of

history would be the right thing.

Well that's even a determination.

Yes.

Why should we believe you.

And that being the.

Definition of exactly yeah he's just inventing a standard why not.

If stalin comes along he says i don't care about your majority david i'm going to kill you and everybody that gets in my

way how am i wrong if there's no authority between above you or me we do have a listener in center.

Reach long island new york.

Uh reverend bruce.

And he says do you see any biblical or theological problems with a christian who

believes that it is possible for god to have created an infinite.

Amount of creations i don't see a theological.

It is a theological but it's more a philosophical problem because any finite creation can't be infinite.

You can't have you can't have an infinite number of atoms you can't have an infinite number of marbles.

You can't have an infinite number of universes.

Anything that's finite is numbered and has a limit to it.

So there could be other creations there could be other universes out there.

That's one of the theories the atheists put forth to try and avoid the obvious designed -ness of

the universe.

They try and say well our universe just looks designed.

But it just got this way by chance because there's many other universes out there and we just happen to be the lucky one.

So to speak i mean talk about faith right.

But anyway uh they uh it is possible there are other universes out there.

Of course we can't access them because we can only observe our universe.

But um you can't have an infinite number of creations or an infinite number of universes because you can't have an

infinite.

Number of anything that's finite.

And by the way uh pastor bruce uh you're going to get a free copy of stealing from god.

Why atheists need god to make their case.

Compliments of the publishers.

So uh make sure that we have your mailing address and we'll get that out to you as soon as possible for your good

question.

And once again the email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

You know it struck me chris that it would be.

Easier for you to get mail if you just took buzz's first name and got rid of your last name.

Chris at gmail .com.

Yeah like a radio thing you know.

Well my email address part of it is buzzwords.

Okay and uh the what is the most frequent

objection that you hear from atheists or those who reject the christian faith

thrown into your face.

What is the most frequent thing you hear.

Well we get four basic objections to christianity.

They all begin with the letter e and in fact in our on our app the cross -examined app you can see these

in the quick answer section.

Cross -examined two words in the app store.

The four categories of objections.

We get chris over and over again and i think this is true of anybody trying to defend the christian faith.

Is that you're going to get objections from evil.

You know if god why evil.

If you're going to get

christianity false.

Of course that's nonsense.

Even if evolution were true christianity necessarily wouldn't be false.

But let's leave that aside the third e would be ethics.

You know what.

Why did god kill the canaanites in the old testament for example.

Or what does god have against homosexuality.

Or any kind of sexual behavior outside of marriage between a man and a woman.

And then the fourth category of objections are eternity.

Like will god send me to hell just because i don't believe in jesus.

Or what about those that have never heard these types of questions.

So it's basically those.

Big four evil evolution ethics and eternity.

I find it interesting that you um say evil and ethics since ethics define evil.

How do you define.

How do you divide those.

Well evil usually the.

Question is is given well if there's a good god why is all this.

Why is there evil in the world.

Um and that's although it's related to the ethics question it's kind of a question on its

own.

It's a big topic on its own.

Theodicy.

Theodicy.

Right.

Right now.

Of course this is one of the ways that atheists steal from god.

The e in crimes in the book stealing from god is evil because atheists will say well there's too much evil in the

world.

And the response to that is what do you mean by evil.

You see there would be no evil unless there were good and there'd be no such thing as good unless god

existed.

So evil is not an argument against god.

Evil is actually a backhanded argument for god.

Yeah.

Because there'd be no such thing as evil unless there were good and there'd be no such thing as good unless god existed.

So i know this sounds counterintuitive.

But the truth is if evil exists then god exists.

Yes yes.

And do you have a follow -up buzz.

Well i was just kind of curious if if the uh chapters uh of your book follow the uh

crimes acronym that.

You've given us.

They do.

They start with causality then they then the chapter two goes to reason then i is information and intentionality

then um uh and morality.

E is evil and s is science.

Atheists try and say that science is on their side.

The truth is science and christianity are not at odds.

Science and atheism are at odds.

Oh yes.

Well why don't you go through a an explanation.

A brief summary of each of those headings.

Uh of each of those.

Yeah.

Well if we can.

Well nobody'll buy the book then.

Yeah come on.

I don't have time for that man.

We do have one.

We do have 40 minutes.

Well why don't we just talk about science for a second.

Sure.

You always hear people saying well you know science points if

someone would ever say to you well let me.

How much time do we have here.

Yes you have uh nine minutes before commercial.

Okay all right all right.

Let me let me just let.

Me just ask you guys a couple of questions.

Um and that is let's go back to the oj simpson trial.

Can we do that.

Sure oj as you know was uh can you believe the trial was 20.

It's over twice 21 years ago.

Amazing.

Amazing.

That's how long it was in the news.

Yeah.

I know it was it was in the news so much.

But yeah it it was 21 years ago that oj simpson uh

was tried for killing his ex -wife and uh her boyfriend.

I'm gonna i'm gonna ask you guys a question.

I'm gonna ask the audience a question.

Okay.

I'm just going to give you some evidence for the trial.

Okay.

And and then and then you guys answer the question.

Just here's some of the evidence.

Oj simpson's blood was at the scene of the crime and there's only a 1 in 170 million chance.

It's not simpson's blood.

Number two goldman brown and simpson all their blood.

The two victims.

And oj's blood was in simpson's bronco.

You remember the white bronco.

Yes.

The glove at the scene.

Uh had blood from all three.

And it matched the glove at simpson's house.

And simpson was seen wearing those gloves on the a broadcast.

Remember he used to be the nfl sideline reporter.

Yes.

Okay.

Number four the bloody footprints at the scene were from a rare brand of size 12 shoes.

Bruno molly's.

What were they.

Bruno molly's.

Yeah.

There's only 199 uh of those pairs sold in the u .s and simpson had one of them.

And then finally nicole brown simpson's blood was on simpson's socks.

And there's only a one in 21 billion chance that

it wasn't her blood.

Which means nicole brown simpson is probably the only person in the history of the world that had that blood.

Now here's my question.

Does science show that oj was guilty.

Uh i believe that that would point that way.

Yeah.

Yes.

I would have to agree.

Yeah.

I would say point that way.

But the real answer is no.

Not because i think oj's innocent but because science doesn't say anything scientists do.

Yes.

You're right.

You see science does there's no such thing as science.

There's no.

There's no entity out there.

Known as science is a method of inquiry that human beings use to discover cause and effect relationships.

Okay so it's it's it's the same thing as sproles chance exact thing yeah exact thing yeah

chance.

Is not a cause that people would say right.

Well science doesn't exist unless human beings exist.

And human beings have to gather the data and then interpret it.

And no data is self -interpreting.

And yet scientists try and say well atheism is proven.

Or they they yeah that science.

Somehow science doesn't

say anything.

It's scientists that do.

And it turns out that many scientists come to their conclusion that there is no god

by their philosophical presupposition that god doesn't exist.

In other words they have this methodological naturalism and this metaphysical naturalism whereby they say

well god doesn't exist.

So everything works by the laws of physics.

Well that's not a conclusion based on the evidence.

That's a presupposition regardless of the evidence.

And the same thing is true when when they look at say uh macroevolution for example richard dawkins when you ask him

what's his best evidence for macroevolution you know what he says.

Well because we have a common genetic code first of all that's not even true.

There's not a common genetic code.

There's about 20 different codes we've discovered.

But there is a dominant one.

And and and what.

What.

What dawkins tries to say is okay that evidence points toward a common ancestor.

We have a common genetic code must be a common ancestor.

Well you know dawkins could be right about that.

That's one possible interpretation of the evidence.

But what's the other impossible interpretation.

He's not even considering.

Well it could be a common creator or common designer.

Right now science won't tell you what.

The right answer is all science does is it allows you to use a process whereby you can get the data.

And then you have to make a judgment.

And i'm saying that many times scientists are basing their opinions or their interpretations

on the evidence or basing their interpretations of the evidence based on their previous philosophical

presupposition.

Yeah in fact i had uh a guest on.

Not long ago colonel jeffrey williams who is a christian astronaut and he's actually going

on a space launch god willing next month he's going to be in the space station for six months

and i had children from uh different christian schools all over the united states uh submit

questions for him from kindergarten through 12th grade and one of them was uh do you

believe in life on other planets.

And although he wouldn't have used the exact wording uh that i'm giving the the essence of it was

that you have to have a presupposition to believe that there is life on other planets because the science tells you life

would not survive on any of the other planets.

That we know of right.

That we know of right.

Not the kind of life we know about.

Yeah right.

Because it's big.

That need to be precisely fine -tuned that despite the fact that

there are stars equivalent to the number of grains of sand on all the beaches on all the earth out

there they doubt that there's life out there because the the the planets and

the and the sun and the uh planet like

jupiter need to be just

right to have biological life as we know it and.

Basically what i meant uh in regarding representing colonel jeffrey williams is that

to say it with certainty that you believe that there's life on other planets the only way you could have a belief.

Like that is to have a presupposition about it.

Yeah.

Or you could say i i looked at the evidence the bible is true and the bible says there are angels out there.

Okay.

Amen.

And we're going to be.

Going to a break right now we have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions answered so we thank you for your patience.

And uh if you'd like to join us on the air as well our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back with frank turrick and more of our discussion on stealing from god.

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Welcome back.

This is.

Chris arnson if you've just tuned us in we have had on for the last half hour our guest frank

turek and he is discussing a book of his stealing from god.

And we also have in studio with me today buzz taylor.

The reverend buzz taylor who is serving as my co -host if you'd like to join us on the air

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And before i return to our discussion i just have to give a quick shout out

to someone from the church that we just heard an ad for linbrook baptist church

who for many years has kept iron sharpens iron on the air.

Harry dantona has been named the crossroads league field athlete of

the week the league office announced today at taylor university.

And he is harry dantona.

His dad sal dantona is a deacon at linbrook baptist church.

And dantana propelled the tu men's indoor track and field team to a team

victory in the five team field at the taylor invitational on saturday scoring 16

points for the trojans as taylor collected of 183 points to edge indiana

wesleyan by two points a junior from rockville center new york.

Dantona won the weight throw with a career best heave of 15 .83

meters to best the field of eight competitors.

Dantona collected a third place finish in the shot put with a with a

toss of 13 .67 meters as well.

And dantona is the first men's indoor track and field athlete to be honored as the crossroads league

field athlete of the week in 2016.

And we just congratulate him and his dad sal dantona and everyone at linbrook baptist church.

And we once again thank you for helping to make iron sharpens iron possible and for keeping

us on the air.

And uh once again our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We do have a listener uh susan in newville pennsylvania.

Who asks isn't there a danger at making people feel comfortable just by

their acknowledgement that they are theists that they believe in the existence of god.

Isn't there a lot more to it than that.

Such as the shed blood of christ for the remission of sins and the worship and

following of jesus christ.

The second person of the trinity.

Is there a danger in just saying that you're a theist and you're okay.

Is that the question.

Making people feel more comfortable.

Making people feel comfortable in just the fact that they believe in god like you will.

You will very frequently hear uh even on fox news for instance.

I i listen to fox news a lot i like a lot of what i hear but i don't agree with everybody on there either.

Uh.

But uh you will sometimes get an idea that people think you're swell and all is well just

because you believe that god exists but that there's more to life.

Oh absolutely.

And uh.

I'm not sure what the question has to do with what we're talking about.

Uh well the as far as.

The one evangelizing uh isn't there a danger in like walking away and making that person

feel that they have nothing to fear because they're a theist because they believe that god exists.

Yeah.

Well from an apologetic perspective you want to see where people are before you.

Uh try and give them evidence like if they're already theists.

Okay great.

Now let's talk about jesus.

Right.

But if they're not theists uh then you've got to give them evidence that god exists.

So it really depends on where the person is.

Yeah i don't just want to leave somebody at theism.

But on the other hand every time you have a conversation with somebody you don't have to lead him to the foot of the cross.

It's impossible to do though.

Sometimes you're just you're just planting seeds in them.

If i'm talking to an atheist on a college campus which i do quite frequently um he may have a

problem with the the idea that god exists so i'm going to give him evidence that god exists.

I'm just planting a seed in his mind that god exists and his world view is false.

I may not get all the way to jesus died and rose again for your sins because there's not enough time.

But that's okay.

You know as paul says some plants some waters and water and others.

Give the increase.

Yes and uh also on the other side of the coin as we all know.

Uh they were theists very strict theists who flew a plane into the world.

Absolutely yeah.

Yeah there's no.

Question about that.

So it depends on you know what the nature of your interaction is is with somebody.

So uh you know sometimes you can't get all the way to the foot of the cross other times you can't.

Let me say one other thing.

You know people say well i led somebody to christ today.

Well yeah you did but you didn't because that person may have come to christ today

and you may have been the one to ultimately with the help of the holy spirit put them over the edge.

But there was a lot going on before that right.

The person you know had a whole bunch of other experiences that got them to the point that today was the day

they become saved.

And the buzz.

Yes well it gets back to uh the uh scripture that you quoted at the beginning of the hour

uh where we are tearing down all speculations you know every thought raised against the the obedience of

of christ.

And really uh an argument against theism is an argument against christ.

An argument against what.

Against christ.

An argument against atheism.

Yes uh.

An argument against theism is an argument.

Oh yeah yeah yeah okay yeah.

That's right.

Yeah of course.

So yeah if if if atheists are saying there is no god we'll give evidence that there is a god then you can move on to jesus.

You can't always do that.

Let's be let's be realistic.

Yeah.

You can't always get there in a in a five -minute conversation with somebody can't do it right.

And by the way.

Susan you are also getting a free copy of stealing from god by frank turrick.

And by the way chris.

As you know i don't know if you know it but in the book it's not just that that there is a theistic god.

We do give the case that christianity is true in the book.

Yes from god.

So.

But what we're doing there is we're dealing with the arguments that atheists give and show them and and and you

know show the people reading the book that atheists are stealing from god while they're arguing against him.

And atheist is like somebody who says i don't believe in guns and then he steals your gun and.

Tries to shoot you with it that's telling you like it is.

We have christian in cumberland county pennsylvania who wants to know how do you answer the retort

from either a muslim or a liberal who might support islam

who says christianity is just as littered with violence as islam.

Who are you to.

Judge their religion as a religion of violence.

Well first of all i don't have to judge uh islam as a religion of violence.

Muhammad did himself.

Uh if you just read surahs eight and surahs nine he says.

Strike the heads off the infidels.

He says may allah destroy the christians and the jews.

May allah prepare prepare them for every ambush in in.

Uh in his biography written by ibn ishaq uh he said kill every jew that comes into your

power.

When muhammad was asked what's the greatest commandment.

He said to believe in allah.

And the second greatest commandment is to participate in jihad.

So i don't have to make a case islam is violent.

Uh muhammad already has.

Now again whenever you say this you always have to say well most muslims are not like that.

I i agree with that.

But what their texts say and what their founder did points to a very

violent religion.

Again not everybody believes in that thankfully.

But that's just what the text says.

So you don't have to you don't have to look at don't take my word for it.

Go read the quran.

Go read surahs eight and surah.

Nine you can just start there.

Well the uh the questioner uh christian in cumberland county basically is saying yeah.

But you christians believe the old testament is god breathed.

It's not just a book of legend and fairy tales.

You believe that it's true.

And among those stories we read we have god commanding the israelites to

slaughter men women and children.

I mean exactly.

And uh for that uh i recommend a book that paul copan has written called is god a moral

monster.

And let me just give you a very short uh response that someone like copan would say to that.

If you read say deuteronomy 7 where you read these it says you know kill everyone.

Then you read the next verse and it says.

And then don't intermarry with them.

And you're going wait a minute.

If you're going to kill everybody how could you intermarry with any of them.

They're all gone.

Well the point that copan makes is that in the ancient near east this kind of hyperbolic language was

very common.

Just like we might say well we we wiped out the opponent in a sporting event.

Right.

We annihilate them.

Well this is what.

What's going on in the old testament according to copan.

Obviously if you're going to wipe everybody out you can't intermarry with them.

It makes no sense to even have that command afterwards.

And so the idea here is is that these are hyperbolic commands to drive people out of the land who by

the way were engaged in child sacrifice.

And uh god said let's put an end to this let's drive them out of here.

But let's say copan's wrong about that.

Let's say those commands were literal.

Here's my question.

My question to somebody who asked this is um when god kills people in the old testament does he do do so for

no reason.

No.

Or does he have a reason.

Always he has a reason.

And if you look at the moral record of the canaanites they were literally sacrificing their children

on the molten metal hot god called molek where a child would literally

be fried to death in front of everyone.

And um the second question i usually ask people is this.

When god killed somebody here on earth is he murdering them.

Of course the answer is no.

Because god can't murder anyone.

God is the giver of life.

He's the taker of life.

If he wants to kill us at two years old or 82 years old that's up to

him.

We have no right to life.

He is the one that has the right to life that he can take our life at any point he wants to.

And if christianity is true of course um we never really die.

We just change location.

Right.

We just go from this location to the afterlife.

And god can do that anytime he wants.

Now i just said we don't have a right to life.

What i meant was we don't have the power over life and death.

God has the power over life and death.

And he can take our lives anytime he wants.

And by the way when when when people say this kind of thing chris i normally ask them this question as well.

Particularly people like bill maher.

I've been on bill maher show before.

No i don't think i will.

The god of the bible is evil and all this.

And yet bill maher will also be for abortion.

And so my question is this.

Why is it that when god plays god in the old testament and decides who lives and who

dies he's immoral.

But when bill maher plays god here on earth and decides who lives and dies that's a moral

right.

Yeah he was.

Just very uh repugnantly and glibly stating that

uh if uh bernie sanders or hillary clinton don't win this presidential election you're

gonna gotta have to go to london for an abortion.

And even the uh which i would guess would be a secular audience predominantly on the show that he was on

groaned uh.

And i don't think they were groaning at his proposition.

I think they were groaning that he dared to uphold abortion in such a flippant way like well not only

that but people don't understand.

That even if roe v wade were overturned that would not outlaw abortion.

What it would do is it would take the situation back to the constitutional situation we had prior to

1973.

And that is that every state gets to determine what the laws on abortion are in their state.

So it would go back to the state legislatures and they would have to decide there might be some states.

Uh that maybe alabama would outlaw abortion but maybe california would keep it legal.

And you see.

So people don't even understand what they're talking about when they're talking about roe v wade roe v wade roe v wade was

a complete judicial overreach.

Much like this recent uh same -sex marriage case.

In fact i article today on the stream and town hall dot com on justice scalia.

The title of it is scalia defended democracy.

Liberals subverted.

And and what scalia does.

And and does.

And did so.

Well i don't know if you followed him much chris you you probably have if you've been um interested in politics at

all here which is one of his opening lines in his dissent in that in that same -sex

marriage case here's his opening line i write separately to call attention to this court's threat to

american democracy.

He went on to say this practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine

always accompanied as it is today by extravagant praise of liberty

robs the people of the most important liberty they asserted in the declaration of independence and won in

the revolution of 1776 the freedom to govern ourselves.

He went on to say a system of government that makes the people subordinate to a committee of nine unelected

lawyers does not deserve to be called a democracy.

Amen.

When justices are determining what our laws are rather than interpreting and applying what our laws already have been

established to be we no longer.

Govern ourselves.

We have bob in white plains new york.

Who wants to know how do you answer the often repeated retort that religion is the

cause of more brutality mutilation torture and murder than anything

else on the planet earth.

Since time began my basically religion is evil.

My first question is what do you mean by evil right.

And and because people will try and give you examples of evil like they'll try and say torture or murder or those kind of things like that

gentleman just did.

But i'm not asking for examples.

I'm asking for a definition.

And when people try and define evil they can't define evil without appealing to good.

And god exists.

So yes religion may have done evil things but that doesn't mean god

doesn't exist.

And it doesn't mean that christianity's fault.

You see you don't judge a worldview by its abuse.

You judge it by its precepts or by what it's supposed to be for.

And christianity is not for murdering people it's for protecting people.

Uh so i would i would also mention that uh the worldview that has killed far

more people than world religions throughout history is called atheism.

And if you look at the century and you look at stalin pol pot and

uh and mal you have well over 70 million people murdered by those

atheistic groups have done in all of recorded history.

And of course there are uh.

Numerous religions that we as christians would identify as evil anyway.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And uh we are constantly being blamed for the wickedness of the roman catholic

church in ancient times and uh.

And basically up through the 17th century.

Yeah uh.

And also the magisterial protestants did have their hand in that.

But uh now i don't want to uh pat my uh fellow baptists on the back too

much here.

But as a people the baptists have have never been a part of that kind of thing.

You have individual crazy baptists doing things you have baptists who are in the kuklux klan and so on

but you have christians throughout history that were never involved.

In brutality but.

But chris the whole premise there of people being involved who are claimed to be christians

is misguided because they are going against the words of christ.

Right.

Exactly they are not.

They are not in accord with the words of christ they're going against the word of word the words of christ.

On the other hand you look at islam you are if you're involved in jihad just following what muhammad did and what

the quran says you know.

And by the way bob you're also.

Getting a free copy of stealing from god by frank turk so make sure that we have your mailing address.

And thank you very much for the very good question.

And that was a good segue from bill maher.

Because he brings that up ad nauseam infinitum.

Uh have you ever.

Oh you did say that you were actually on the program with him.

What is he like to talk about off air.

Is he uh more cordial and easy to get along with when you're just uh sitting there in a room without the

cameras rolling.

Yeah i.

Think most most of these guys are i mean i have nothing against any of them.

In fact bill maher and i were in agreement uh in our second program because we were talking.

It's like two months after 9 11 we're talking about islam and he and i are in agreement and this.

Most of them that was on the with us was trying to say uh i quoted a couple of bio

chronic verses and she said you're not going to get anywhere by demon it demonizing the quran.

And i was about to jump back in but mark said we're not demonizing the quran by reading it.

No we're not demonizing islam by reading it.

Let me give bill maher his due.

He's absolutely right when it comes to islam.

Yes he is uh against the.

Broad brushing of liberals who will try to make the claim that islam is just as dangerous as.

Christianity.

Yeah i know he's right about that right.

Yeah he totally is.

And even richard dawkins was right.

Recently in talking to bill maher richard dawkins to his credit said a lot of people think

that islam is a race it's not a race it's a world view

it's a religion.

And uh i may get some flack.

For this.

But his documentary religious there was a lot of nonsense that he was exposing

that goes on in the name of christianity that should be exposed.

Oh sure yeah that should be refuted.

He just didn't have the fairness to have more brilliant men of god

as a part of that uh documentary i.

Noticed he didn't have william layne craig on.

There did he uh i believe he may have had very briefly ken ham but i don't have.

Well yeah that's that's different though.

He's ken ham is is is taking a a view that isn't mainstream among

scientists and so they'll mock ken ham.

But if they had william layne craig on and and and did more of a an interview with him and said

here's a guy that's a christian too.

But they of course they don't do that.

They they they they want to just characterize anybody who they disagree with.

Uh well i i want to make sure uh that we in.

The eight minutes that we have left that you uh let our listeners know exactly what you want to be

etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this broadcast.

And then we'll take some more uh listener questions if we have time for that when you're finished.

Because i just want to make sure that the thrust of what you want our listeners to leave with is spoken today.

Well the thrust is that.

Christianity is true.

Stealing from god.

Why.

Atheists need god to make their case.

We go through that.

We also have another book called i don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

You may have heard of you co -authored that with norman geisler.

That's right.

With norman geisler and you just have to answer four questions to show that christianity is true.

And that is does truth exist.

Does god exist.

Are miracles possible.

And is the new testament reliable.

If the answer to every one of those questions is yes then christianity is true.

Yes there is truth.

Yes god exists.

Yes miracles are possible.

And yes the new testament's reliable.

And that's what we lay out.

And i don't have enough faith to be an atheist and in an abbreviated sense in stealing from god.

Why atheists need god to make their case.

Let me throw out one other thing i'd want them to do.

Uh chris.

And that is to download the free app that i mentioned earlier cross -examine.

Two words.

If they do that they'll get a wealth of information in there because all of our podcasts are up there as well as

a quick answer section i mentioned earlier about the four e's.

Uh the four objections we get that all begin with the letter e.

That's all in there.

And uh there's questions in there.

You can ask people when you're having conversations with them.

Like one question i like to ask atheists all the time.

Or anybody that's not a believer.

Is this.

If christianity were true would you become a christian.

The reason i ask that question is because quite frequently it's not reason or evidence.

That is in their way they don't want christianity to be true.

Why.

Because they're not on a truth quest.

They're on a happiness quest.

They just want to believe whatever they think is going to make them happy.

And they think.

Christianity is going to get in their way of that.

Uh we do have a listener in harrisburg bb who wants to know how do you avoid letting pride get in

the way.

Uh when you're having a discussion about faith with an unbeliever.

And isn't this sometimes just a matter of having a victory and a notch in your belt.

Even the best of christians can fall into that trap.

You get married.

Any other practical advice that keeps you humble.

You have kids.

Oh yeah.

Well i will say my newest book is coming out chris.

It's called 10 steps to humility.

And how i made it in seven.

Yeah right.

Uh well i think what you got to remember is what robbie zachariah so

eloquently said he said whenever you're answering a question remember you're not just answering a question.

You're answering a person.

Like for example some people ask me the question if god why evil.

Well one person may be asking a question in an academic sense right.

But another person may ask the same question.

Who just had their baby.

Yeah there are two different answers for that.

One is a pastoral answer.

Another is a philosophical answer.

You don't want to give a philosophical answer and so you have to

figure it.

And i think it's been said before that evangelism is just one beggar showing another beggar where the food

is.

Say come on down

pal.

We got room for one more.

We're all hypocrites.

That's why we need a savior.

In fact i said to christopher hitchens in our second debate.

I said i agree with you christopher.

I am a hypocrite.

I can't live up to what this book says.

But if i could live up to it i wouldn't need a savior.

I wouldn't need jesus.

Well uh bb you're.

Also getting a free copy of frank turek's book so make sure that we have your mailing address.

As well.

Thank you for writing in.

Hey i need to call in and get one of these free books.

This is pretty good.

You're giving away all the books and there is always the the uh

the tightrope.

Walk that we as christians uh walk on trying not to go too far to the left or too

far to the right.

When it comes to how serious are our differences.

Uh i am a dyed in the wool red -blooded five -point.

Calvinist and i know that you are not uh predestined to be that way.

Because all the evidence points that way.

I'll buy that.

But uh how do we uh tenaciously hold to what we believe to be true and

yet uh recognize that we have brothers in christ for whom christ did die that

disagree with us on these issues and then still uh be able to maintain a working

relationship out there witnessing to the lost without letting these uh differences get too

hostile.

I mean that may be a impossible task on this side of glory but it's something we must strive for isn't it.

Yeah i think we read romans chapter 14 because.

That's what paul talks about in romans chapter 14.

He basically says don't major in the minors.

You know there are some essentials we we have to be unified on.

And if somebody says they're christian but they deny god exists or they deny jesus is the savior or they

deny jesus was god well we're not going to fellowship what's called heresy but

we may have secondary issues like

god and and free choice and all these things.

Yeah we could have differences over that and still work together.

Uh for the common good and christians have done that throughout.

Well that's what keeps us humble.

I used to agree with chris.

And uh when it comes to uh keeping uh the the

person's soul primary and well actually the the glorifying and honoring of god

primary in the person's soul uh a second uh runner up uh

how do you maintain that patience when you are not only just having an inquisitive conversation

over coffee but having somebody screaming at you i mean is there a time to stop casting your

pearls.

Before swine and walk away.

Well i think so i think when you ask the question if christianity were true would you become a christian.

And they either hesitate or say no.

All you can do is for them is pray for them then and love them

but you can't.

That's why that question is so effective it just clears the decks of all the the moral and volitional objections.

So i think that you ought to ask that question.

But i can almost guarantee you this if there's somebody in your life who's really resistant and you can continue to love them and be in

their life as much as you can one day there's probably going to be a tragedy in that person's life and their and your phone is

going to ring.

And that person's going to be on the other end because when something when something tragic happens they're not going to

call their atheist buddies right.

They're going.

To call you and then and buzz.

You had a question.

Well even as you were defining um apologetics of course you went to peter's statement

to be ready to give a an answer for the reason of the hope you know that you have within you.

But the verse didn't end there as far as addressing the pride issue.

The very next phrase does that because we're supposed to do that with humility with respect that's right for the other person.

So it's not like you have to.

Well i can't really defend the faith because i might come across as proud and that's something i have to deal with.

But i have to defend the faith and we're out of time.

Please frank give us your website one more.

Time cross examined .org that's cross examined with a d on the end of it .org and don't forget to

download the uh the app and also like our facebook page cross examined .org and

dr frank.

And look out for frank's tv program on nrb tv.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions.

I want to thank my co -host buzz taylor and i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a

far greater savior than you are a sinner.

God bless.

We look forward to hearing from you and your own questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.