February 16, 2016 Show with Anthony Uvenio & Nick Mitchell of New York Apologetics plus Frank Turek on “STEALING FROM GOD: Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth Who are listening the alive streaming?

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the 16th day of February 2016 and I'm very excited today, and I know

I use that line a lot, but it is always true. I can assure you But I am excited today, especially since I have

Three men on today for the very first time who have never been on iron sharpens iron first for the first hour

We have Anthony Eugenio and Nick Mitchell who have a grassroots

Apologetics ministry that they founded a number of years ago called, New York apologetics

You may be wondering can anything good come out of New York. Well, I think this is one thing That is a very valuable tool that God is using and will continue to use and then in the second hour as You may know from the publicity that began before the show started we have

Frank Turek Who is a world -renowned? Apologist and he is going to be on to speak about his book stealing from God Atheists need

God to make their case and other matters in general regarding apologetics and We hope that you stay tuned for the second hour for that as well, but first of all let me welcome

You both for the very first on to iron sharpens iron Anthony Eugenio and Nick Mitchell Thanks for having us on Chris.

We really appreciate it Yeah, really great. Thank you for having us on Chris, and I'd like to introduce both of you to my

Dear friend Reverend buzz Taylor John Busby Taylor who is a retired pastor and now fills in whenever he is available

As co -host on iron sharpens iron. He has served in Baptist churches

Pentecostal and charismatic churches Finley Ohio Church of God congregations and a

Presbyterian Church as their pastor and I think his next congregation is is going to be

Sweden Borgia But welcome to back as a co -host buzz

Taylor and say give a greeting to our guests today Well, it's good to meet you on the air and looking forward to the conversation.

It's certainly an interesting one to me I've been involved in apologetics Obviously as a pastor for a number of years and I think it's gonna be a good show

Well before we Even get into your your personal testimonies, which is where I'd like a lot of our discussion to start before that I would like you both perhaps we could start with Anthony giving a description of New York apologetics and How this all began and when it begin

Well, New York apologetics is an organization dedicated to proclaiming the truth claims of Christianity and helping make the invisible

God visible to people in reality Remember Roman 1 20 that God's invisible attributes have clearly been seen through what it means

So it's our desire and goal to take the things that God has made and show people how they point

You know, we do that with with the typical apologetic arguments that are out there. We do unique to our own personality

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Nick about two and a half years ago before I started a debate that University he helped coach me and the debate went really well

In fact, you can see it on the website if you go to New York apologetics calm under video answers

You'll see a tag that says science and faith. You can you can watch the full debate

And after the debate went well, we had so many people coming up to us asking us where they can get more information like this

So Nick and I put our heads together I know that's not saying much but we put our heads together and we started a website and the website turned into radio show

Into what we're doing now That's how it all started and that debate that you had

I saw that you did an excellent job I was I hope you don't take this as an insult, but I was pleasantly surprised now

I don't mean that I had I don't mean that because I had a pessimistic view of you before that But because of the fact that I knew you that you weren't a trained and experienced

Apologist in that sense of being involved in you know, a lot of debates up your sleeve and so on Living in New York being

Italian And you have those those Sunday dinners where you would do a lot of arguments, that's right have money better training than most scholars

And and I was very happy to see that you refrained from throwing food at this debate though. So that was a

And that was a female University professor, correct? Yes, dr.

Amy Karofsky, she's a philosophy professor at Hofstra University. Yeah. Wow.

She really folded up Like a map, I mean she was she was it was really a

Unprepared job on her part as far as I'm concerned him. I'm hope she is not insulted if she's listening, but I couldn't help but Be jolted by that But and Nick Mitchell, how how did you and Anthony come to even meet to begin with I know that Your New York apologetics is really based on the pillar truths of the faith that you guys have in common

But I know that you disagree from time to time because you do come from somewhat different theological backgrounds and church backgrounds

So tell us how you guys got together Well, originally I had

I had been put into apologetics because my daughter when she went to college

Was told she was an idiot for believing in God Wow told by the teacher

Yeah This is before the movie came out by the way, this is going back

Almost four and a half five years ago before which movie before the movie

The apologetics movie God's not dead. Oh, yeah. Sure. So I came out Yeah, that was sort of the scenario of the movie, but I actually lived through it

And I thought to myself wow, you know what it'd be great to have some good answers to be able to Talk about our faith to people who are skeptics who don't believe in the

Bible who don't necessarily believe in God and to be able to show them the truth of God through philosophy science, you know logic and history and So that gave birth to the

New York apologetics Well, what happened is I started teaching in the church I started studying and teaching apologetics after a while and One of the young ladies in my class from LA you posed told me that she knew this guy who was going to have a debate

In the hospital and I said wow, can you introduce me to him? I'd love to sort of tag along with him and She connected us and we wound up sort of training each other and that and that was it after that we got together we formed the

York apologetic and our goal is not just to teach but to train and And there is a difference

The teaching is kind of like when you're focused on the speaker where training would be when you're focused on the student and really we're all about putting this information in the hands of regular people like us and Who could sort of Christians that can handle themselves and also?

Sort of deal with the culture to allow the truth of the gospel to be a viable answer right, and I know that there is

Very often a time and place. In fact, maybe maybe most often it is the appropriate route to take to have people who are more in lockstep and Our mirror images of each other and when it comes to theology when they are teaming up for an apologetics

Group or ministry, but I think there is a great value because it demonstrates the love of Christ that conquers all

When you have two guys like you who are in agreement as I was saying before on the core issues of faith

But you do have differences of opinion in other areas of church life. And I think that this is a good testimony

That's Christians Compassionately believe in something but they can know what priorities to place those truths and doctrines and not use them as battering rams to beat their brothers over the head with and to unnecessarily cause division and I understand that I say this very nervously because we live in a day and age where People look for any excuse to put theology and doctrine on the bottom shelf of importance as if it doesn't matter not knowing that every time you open your mouth and Describe anything within the

Bible or about God you're speaking doctrine of theology. It's either just good or bad Well, you know

Chris this sounds very familiar because it's the same thing with us We we certainly have our differences too

We have many many hours of conversation about things that where we are in agreement and and of course that that's

When you're up against somebody who doesn't agree with you it forces you to really learn to defend your own

Position very well, and I think I'm holding up to you very well, actually But you know it dawned on me that When I when

I hear the word the words New York apologetics You know, the first thing that came to my mind is, you know, like you have your own style of pizza

Now you have your own style of apologetics What is this thing about New York? So I'm wondering if we should just back up a step here and I'm sure that most of the listeners already know the answer to This but perhaps we should at least define what apologetics actually is.

That's a good idea Excellent idea if you could either one or both of you

Okay, so apologetics I'll give you the quick version obviously it comes from the book of Peter right 1 2 3 15 where he says always be ready to give an answer an apple of gear the

Greek words, but What it means to us is this and that is that we need to be able to give an account of what we believe

A defense if you will and it's not so much that we want to defend ourselves so that we can protect ourselves

But defend what we believe give an account for what we believe so that the person asking Might receive an answer and maybe open up their thinking or open up their heart to the truth of God sometimes

You know Frank's record is gonna be on your shoulder a little while He'll tell you that on his website and he certainly figured this out that 75 % three -quarters of the youth leave the church after high school and Part of the reason for that is that they don't get their questions answered

They can't ask tough questions and and really this helps Them sort of not be pushed into a corner

I've been going into a classroom and being told that look, you know what you believe in God But it's really like if you want to believe in God you want to believe in a leprechaun you want to believe in one eye

That's great But when you come in here, we're looking for ways to know truth, which really comes about by observation or the scientists

So, can you just leave your faith at the door? They never go back to the church and mention that they just sort of so quietly in the corner and think themselves

You know what? What were we told all these years? By then it's almost too late So I think apologetics from the standpoint of a defense in that regard can help them before they get into that position

I think Frank took a great job at that as well as getting us information into their hand And I'm sure I'll explain that to you, but that is really our goal.

Our goal is to prepare the Saints and Anthony if you could comment on the aspect that I was talking about the value that you may see and having an organization where one of your team at least a

Primary part of your team there as many differences from you in some regard.

Oh It keeps me on my toes, that's for sure, you know, I Totally respect

Nick and appreciate all his views and we go back and forth and we wrestle with Scripture Which again just bears testimony to you know, what what

God has done in each one of us You know, the word Israel means struggles with God So the more we struggle with God the closer we come to him and the more we know about him and the more we know

It's tremendous because I get to see things from a different perspective that I wouldn't be able to See outside of my relationship with him and the wonderful thing is we get to do it in love

You know We said our flesh aside and we come to the scriptures and we truly wrestle with it and we're getting there at it

You know Sometimes your flesh does get it in the way and it's a reminder that we don't know it all

We all see through a glass dimly. So the way I like to describe me and Nick where there

Where the dr. James White and dr. Michael Brown of New York only were about a hundred pounds heavier each and a hundred

Hundred IQ point lighter And of course as you probably know just as much as I do having a relationship like that where you have differences of Opinion and yet cooperate in ministry can get you a lot of negative feedback from even well -meaning

Brethren Christ like but brethren in Christ like I know that our mutual friend. Dr.

James are white He does get some really heavy -duty negative feedback from his

Like -minded brethren in in faith over his cooperation with Michael Brown because of Some of the people that Michael Brown has appeared with on a platform, especially

I think but Have you gotten any negative feedback that you've had to deal with?

Me personally. No, I mean Anybody who knows Nick knows that he loves

God, you know When if somebody were to tell me, you know something like that in the way of what why would you be dealing with somebody who?

differs with you Theologically and I would say was knowledge puffs up but love builds up You know love it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna win out in the end and when we do love each other

Obviously, we're united on the essentials, you know It's not like I'm working with the Jehovah's Witness or a

Mormon and we're we're not on the same page with the gospel I mean, you know my friend

Nick, I trust and respect him Explicitly. I mean, he's like I said a careful thinker and we are united on the gospel

It is only through the name of Jesus that we are saying And it's you know by faith in him alone that we have salvation

So we can be united on on the essentials and the other peripheral things

Those are things that we work out and honestly, I I've become a better Theologian so to speak in listening to him and being more careful when

I say something without necessarily Have been thinking it through the way

I should have and Nick. Have you ever gotten any? Negative feedback for being linked arm -in -arm with standing from the frozen chosen

Mostly All those I've introduced Anthony to they they really just love them

They see him, you know as a brother in Christ, and I think they leave it there. I really haven't had that pushback

Not yet. Anyway so so far in the

Brief time that I've really gotten to know about New York apologetics and I was very honored that you guys had me

Serve as your moderator at Stony Brook University when Frank Turek debated.

Dr. Michael Shermer And that was how long ago was that at Stony Brook University?

I was April of last year. Yeah Well, it seems that the ministry that you guys have at least for now focuses on Those who either believe

God does not exist with certainty as the atheists or their agnostics they are uncertain whether he exists or not and those from the academic realm that that believe the creation or intelligent design is

Mythology legend and even Dangerous fairy tales that we should not be polluting our children with these are the kinds of people that you are combating against From what

I can see so far Yes, so far Chris God has opened the door on several college campuses and in several high schools for us to go in and Talk to kids with regards to apologetics.

Some of them have never heard any Argumentation from a philosophical scientific or forensic level for the existence of God, you know most times parents and well -meaning teachers

Tell people well the Bible said tell they've chosen well The Bible says the Bible says the Bible says and they never really get to see the actual evidence to the existence of God outside of Scripture Like I said

Romans 1 20 we can look out whether we look through a telescope or a microscope it all points to God his fingerprints on everything because Christians because reality is

Really a description of Christianity Christianity is a picture of reality It's a picture of the world the way it actually is so when you look at things in the world, whether they be morality whether it be

Scientific discoveries all of these things are rooted and grounded in the world that God created

So somehow some way it will tie back into him because he's created this for his glory

By the way, I saw not long ago In fact, I think it was not long after Bill Nye debated

Ken Ham. I saw him on The Seth Meyers show late,

I think it's called late night with Seth Meyers and He was actually

Rousing up the audience to You know unite together to see if they could ban

Christian involvement in local school boards everywhere across the nation because he viewed the

Christian contribution to public education as a pariah as a danger and he actually had the the

Breathtakingly Asinine and moronic goal to say that Christians involved

Or should I say those who believe in intelligent design and creationists involved in school boards will lead to children graduating from school ignorant and less

Capable of entering into the scientific field They will they will destroy their

Abilities for being the future inventors of tomorrow and therefore we will never solve world hunger

Gosh needs a history lesson You know, this is so reminiscent of like 1925 when the scopes trial took place

Yeah, yeah, if you remember back then everything was creationist, right? And This one fellow right he mentioned

Darwinian evolution in the classroom. He got fired and became a whole big trial here. It is less than a hundred years later

It's exactly upside down And I think what we're hearing from these These sort of atheists and you know guys like Peter Boghossian who says we need to eradicate the faith virus in That anybody who is a believer or a

Christian to be mart Marginalized politically and all of that. I think I think this is the cry of a group of people that is beginning to lose ground thanks to the

Apologists in this country and thanks to the move that's going on. They're beginning to lose ground

You mentioned I think this is being mentioned in the textbooks now. Thanks to like Stephen Meyer and Michael be here

It's really it's really impressive what's taking place. I think for For Christianity really?

Yeah, they they defend their anti -christian Ideology, although they would never call it that but it is

Clearly anti -biblical anti -christian ideology. They defend it with the fervor of a

Religious zealot they are Defending a religion whether they care to acknowledge it or not.

It's just a false religion. It's an evil religion Yeah, you know it's personal they personalize

You know, they when they say that faith is a virus and then they go on to say that a group of people

Should not be allowed to vote That's really a personal attack.

It's not dealing with Someone theology. It's actually dealing with the person that to me is the scariest statement of all

And Reverend buzz you've had a lot of experience in the pastoral realm

What is it that you have found over the years? That your average

Christian in the pew may be totally ignorant about and totally unequipped to face a

World around them ready to put their beliefs through the shredder.

Well, not my pews But I really think it needs to be part of the entire program of a church to To teach apologetics, in fact

Even where I am now, I had a I was able to teach a quarterly Sunday school lesson on apologetics because yeah people aren't equipped very much or you know, and and with Really everything that's out there now.

It's it's amazing you know, you know, I'm constantly brought back to the The one of my favorite quotes now here.

I'm calling it my favorite and I'm probably gonna butcher it But Pascal, you know that false truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood.

So Was it entrenched that unless? we love the truth we cannot know it and The chances of people hearing a good defense of the gospel is so rare now

And this is why I'm interested in like when I was joking before about your, you know, New York style pizza

You started to say You do have your own style. I'm kind of curious

What is your daily activity like you know, you said you go to college campuses So I understand that how do you approach people or how do you determine who to approach?

What exactly do you do in your ministry? Yeah, take a minute

I'll give you an example like this weekend. We were asked to speak at The Church of God a winter fest conference up in Rochester and we spoke to about 240 youth leaders from around the country and And what we did was we shared with them maybe a 45 minute presentation

To just whet their appetite and to show them that there are legitimate answers to real questions

Like we say on our website sort of black and white answers in a gray world and Once we give them that information, especially the younger people they are the ones who reach out and get a hold of you

I can't tell you how many people have reached out and just in the last The last week or so.

I'm going to say 84 churches have reached out to us in One form or another for our information for speaking engagements and just to sort of get their hands on the information

There's a real hunger out there It's just a matter of bringing it to them and giving it to them in a way that they can digest it

And I think that is that is part of the uniqueness of New York apologetics. We're just two plain guys

So it's like if we can do it Right. Yeah, you know We have to go to a break right now

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Anthony and Nick of New York apologetics Paul wrote to the church at Galatia from I now see any approval of man or of God Or am

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We were made to thrive Welcome back.

This is Chris Arntz And if you just tuned us in our first two guests for the day are

Anthony Eugenio and Nick Mitchell of New York Apologetics their website is New York apologetics calm and that Those two words

New York are actually spelled out, New York any w -y -o -r -k Apologetics calm they are talking about their grassroots

Apologetics ministry trying to get the ordinary and average Christian more involved

In defending their faith as the scriptures command them to do and we also have in studio once again, my co -host

Reverend Buzz Taylor and Buzz Taylor has been a pastor for a number of years and is now retired and We look forward to his contribution to the discussion as well if you'd like to join us on the air with a question

Our email address is Chris Arntz and at gmail .com That's CH RIS a

RN Z n at gmail .com And please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA We have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island CJ Who asks what are the primary things?

That a lost person needs to know about the gospel in order for them to receive eternal life

Either one of you may start with that question Well, first of all, you would need to know that God exists if there's no

God then there would be no Reason to believe it in one

Existence of God is its primary and you know, we can demonstrate that using obviously scriptural basis and Evidence in the natural order that's given us general revelation and specific revelation so once once we

Got that person to understand it truly is a God then we would go to scripture and point out that God Who exists has sent his son?

To this world as a propitiation for our sin If there is a sin committed a violation of God's law

There needs to be a payment for that sin. That's what God demands So if we can point to the person to a moral law if God exists and a moral law

Would exist and we've all short fall short of God's moral law and that demands a payment to the

God who's given us life Then we can show him how God in his grace and mercy provided his son

Jesus as The Savior the payment for our sins as our Savior when we place our faith and trust in him and him alone

He now redeems us and brings us he adopts us as his child and forgives our sins and brings us into community with him

I don't know if you have anything further to add neck. That's up to you Okay, we were in agreement

We do have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who says don't you think that one of the prevalent mistakes that Christians do when reaching out to the lost is?

using buzzwords and phrases and Christian vocabulary that the average person doesn't have a clue what you're speaking about Yeah Like for instance even somebody's saying to you

Do you know if you're saved or lost? Even those simple phrases a person might not even know wonder if you're talking about.

Yeah, I live right around the corner 34 Smith Street Well, I'm not lost. What are you talking about? I Say Jesus of Nazareth why because it puts feet on Jesus it points to him as a historical person

When I instead of using the word faith, which has been Unfortunately maligned by society today when you say the word faith, they think it means a blind jump

So I don't talk about faith with a with an unbeliever I talk about my convictions

These are these are what I'm this is what I'm convicted of I don't use the words saved.

I use the word rescue, you know, God rescued me From what well from the penalty for my disobedience, you know

So I think I think the the question is a very good one And I think we have to be very sensitive to the people we're talking to because they've heard these words so often

And they're misunderstood so often that we as Christians Should tact tactfully use different words to get them to understand what we really mean

In fact, I learned this from a fellow apologist by the name of Greg Koppel. He Speaks a lot about you know

Christians using Christian ease they use Christian language without explaining these things

You know, I've I was I was washed in the blood of the Lamb People would be like you kidding me.

Really you really washed in the blood. What does that mean? You know, so we have to convey these truths to people in a way that they can understand without making them feel

Uncomfortable the gospel is an offense. We don't have to be an offense We have to be sensitive to people and and reach them where they're at.

That's that's the best way. I would be able to explain it Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know isn't an equally serious error that Christians often make is making the gospel far more palatable and sweet and easy than the circumstances

Really involve people need to know that they're actually going to hell if they don't repent do they not

Yeah to some degree there is a Sort of a wishy -gushy gospel being preached out there.

I think we need to know number one that we're sinners and what that means and that there is a penalty for sin and Then Jesus rescues us from that thing and there needs to be an understanding like sometimes

I give this analogy I'll say I'll say that, you know all right, so let's say you have a husband and wife and the husband cheats on the wife and He comes home and she's just really upset and irate with him

So what he does is he goes out and he he begins to work at a you know

A soup kitchen or something and he works there for a week or two and then he comes back and he's looking on him You know what? I've worked at the soup kitchen for a couple of weeks.

And are we good? And really she's gonna say well, you know what one's got nothing to do with the other and likewise with God You know, we're sinners and sometimes we think that you know

The way that we operate or to the good that we do in the gate Position that we're in with God when it really doesn't one's got nothing to do with the other outside of Jesus There's really no propitiation for our sins.

We're no way for us to be ransomed out of that So that requires obviously the blood of Christ to cover that person in order for them to be viewed as Righteous by God himself.

Otherwise, they are going to receive the wrath of God upon them. Am I right? Yeah, that would be absolutely correct.

So the gospel message is a message of being Saved from God to God yes, that's a good way of putting it that you very rarely hear that saved from God to God because God is the one that is punishing people in hell

Well, it's interesting the last two questions kind of really you think of them together the answer is yes and yes

At some point yes I've heard of you know cloaking the the gospel in secular terms so much that you begin to wonder if there's any gospel left to It you know, right, but on the other hand people do not understand, you know

I don't approach them with a King James Version of the Bible, you know, and all the big words and so forth, you know

Because they do need to understand the message about a third of my audience just turn this show off. Yes But you know, yes, they do need to understand what is being said and you know, that's a tough balance to strike because You know, you need you need both they do need to understand it

But you know, I'm encouraged though by the fact that the gospel is the power of God to salvation everyone that believes and you know

Hearing the Word of God is what's going to convert them ultimately and you know

God for Generations many many generations has gotten through many language barriers cultural barriers and he's reached the people

Yeah, well, obviously what you have it seems to me that many of the most successful and I use that term loosely successful Media evangelists tape the

TV and radio evangelists and Authors who are the best -selling authors many of them have made the mission of Jesus Christ To make this life on earth more wonderful for the viewer or the reader or the listener not to save them from the curse and the wrath of God and therefore, it's really

Like for instance, I just saw Joe Wall Stein on a talk program and the host said do you need to be a

Christian to get Learn the benefits of the principles in this book that you've written

Oh, no, no, of course not, you know, you don't need to be a Christian to benefit from it. I mean this man his main reason for living is supposed to be that he's a minister of the gospel and Obviously if this is just a matter of making you a better husband a better father a

Better boss and a better employee and a happier person. There are other voices out there that may give quicker results to those those questions and People will still wind up being shocked on Judgment Day as those were in Matthew 7

Who thought they were doing wonderful things in the name of the Lord, but we're going into hell I mean, don't you think that the the entire message that seems to be?

polluting the airwaves in regard to the so -called Christian faith is one of making this life better now without the giving the the bad news of Hell and damnation that people need to be rescued from in the first place

Yeah, absolutely, you know what I what I tell people is if you want your best life now

God will give it to you. And then when it comes Judgment Day, your best life will be behind you not ahead

He's giving you your best life already. You know, what what comes next is not better than your best life, you know

John McArthur said If your best life is now that means you're going to hell

Because obviously that's true if you're saying your best life is now in the year and now on this earth

How the heck could the life be better for you in eternity? Yeah, I'm sorry. I interrupted you there

You know, I think what what's common today is, you know, it's God's wonderful plan for your life that that's what is promoted and spoken about and What it really should be is not

God's wonderful plan for your life, but your life for God's wonderful plan He's rescued you.

He saved you. It is now time that you bow the knee and pick you deny yourself

You pick up your cross and follow him and this this self -denial is exactly what these prosperity

Teachers are trying to get around. They want their cake and eat it, too They want to be fulfilled in themselves and they misuse

John 1010 God came to give you a life life more abundantly and that means riches house and car and the like when

The way Jesus lived he didn't have any money he didn't have a place to lay his head

So we're to emulate our Savior were to deny ourselves Pick up our cross which involves sacrifice and picking up your cross.

He's intentional It's not something that you do occasionally Intentionally you pick up your cross every day and you follow him, you know

There are many days that you know I wake up and and I have a lot of studying to do and preparing to do to these presentations

My flesh doesn't want to do them sometimes But I have to say to myself. Wait a second.

Look at what God has done for me Look at where God has placed me.

I mean to whom much is given much is required I will never be able to take out back for what he's done for me

But I can take the talents gifts and abilities he's given me and use them for the kingdom every day

So I think the message has been watered down in America and I think you know

Our country has become a self -indulgent country, you know, the

American dream runs Counterintuitive to the kingdom of God, you know, the kingdom of God and the

American dream are at odds with one another So we have to start turning the tide preaching a true gospel and pointing people to the cross because Most people look and say wow, look at what

Jesus did to you and they look at the cross and say my goodness This is a magnificent outpouring of God's love for you, and that's true

But the opposite is true The cross also also shows the awfulness and the wickedness of sin that God would have to crucify his own

Son in order to pay the penalty for it. So it's not just God's love that we see on the cross

We also see God's wrath and the minute you you don't mention one of those two things

You're giving them a half -truth. We know that a half -truth. That's not the whole truth is an untruth

It is God's love is so magnificent to sinners that he would crucify his son

But the penalty and the awfulness and wickedness of sin is so bad that he would actually have to pour his wrath out on the on his son at the cross

You know one of the things that can be most frustrating when you are evangelizing in public

And you're you know involved in a in a situation where there can be a free -for -all it's not a a

Rigidly timed thing like a debate is it's something where you're just in a street corner or a park or a beach or what?

have you is people who are salivating at the opportunity to try to tie up a

Christian in knots and they have a whole list of rabbit trails that they want to Lure the evangelist down.

So the actual focus of the subject the person's soul Yes has never dying soul and the righteous and holy

God who will judge him are not even Really the heart of the discussion they will bring up all kinds of things to deflect that how do you guys?

keep the The Discussion focused where it should be when when things like that happen, and I'm sure you're not perfect at it as nobody is

But what is the best tactic to keep it focused? Sure, I think one of the one of the ways that we do that is by staying focused on the subject for example

We have our own questions that we get from skeptics mostly and we deal a lot with skeptics

People that don't believe in God and and we get several questions that ask for example

In talking about evolution and and sort of speaking out that's not observable at one person had said to us

Hey, if you don't see that evolution macro evolution So we need an evolution is observable and you don't believe it.

What about your belief in God? You've never observed God How do you believe in God if you know if God is not observable

You know, which is a I think is a good question from a skeptic Another good question that we get asked is you know, what do you mean by faith?

You know like You know one atheist puts it. It's evidence belief without evidence and You'd be surprised how many

Christians would agree to that when faith is Belief is trusting to the point of confidence then and They would they would adhere and say that their faith is blind when it's not well

Can you prove that God exists or didn't we all start out as who created

God? Did God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? How can a loving God throw people into hell?

These are the some of the rabbit trails. Yeah, we look for we look forward to each one of these questions we

Would gladly feel So in other words you take advantage of the rabbit trail you you actually go surfing in a mosh pit with the rabbit trail

Like it and putting up a roadblock at some point because sometimes Those rabbit trails really lead to nowhere exactly where the the antagonist wants them to to wind up If it's a if it's a if we recognize that it's really

Designed just to take us off focus. Well, I'm sort of a boy, you know, we'll jump on Yeah, it is.

There's a tactic. We you know, we we also use you know, what a lot of times Christians are so They're always being asked a lot of questions then they put on the hot seat

Well, how do you possibly believe that Noah fit all of the animals on the ark?

You know, how do you believe that we all just came from Adam and Eve or you know, if God's so good

Why is there all this evil in the world? so one of the tactics that we use to To slow down the onslaught of questions and reverse the burden of proof.

It's just ask the person the question So when the person If God is so good and loving why is there all this evil in the world a good question that we like to ask people

Is what do you mean by evil? Yeah Now he has to stop think through his position.

He made the statement that there's evil in the world. What is evil? Now if if he doesn't include

God in his answer my and now I go into question mode and say, okay What is your standard?

Do you have scientific proof that your standard exists or is this just your opinion? now he's in the hot seat and I can direct this conversation anywhere

I wanted to go as long as I continue to ask questions And you'd be surprised just how how well it works

Until you bring to the person to the point where they really don't have an answer For for what they're asking and then we now have an open opportunity

To share the truth of God's existence and his word and how it would apply to his question and his situation before we have our

Guests give a summary of what they most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

Reverend buzz you have any final questions you'd like to ask before we have them give them the floor to summarize their

Well, I'm just having a little bit of a deja vu here because the very things that they are bringing up I've Encountered with people in just the last few months

Yes, yes Not that I you know, talk to a lot of people daily, but yeah, but these other things that come up and You know, you've got to keep turning it right back to the fact that look

First of all, I've already won the argument because we are in agreement you know you

I The book of Romans says, you know that the ungodly suppress the truth in unrighteousness

And when you're presenting the truth of the gospel, they know that it's true. They know that they're sinners

They know that there is a God that they are accountable to you have to keep bringing them back to that And that's that's that's my point.

Yeah to Quickly get get past the questions. I don't even your questioning isn't good, you know

Because you're simply resisting what you already know you have to do you know God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and you know, your questions are simply trying to divert that command and You know think that I'm all right or whatever else, you know, but yeah, you've got to get right back

Yeah, because they will take you on those trails all the time. So you always always get back to Their soul their soul.

How are they before God? What are they gonna say when they meet God? Well, I don't believe God exists

Well, what are you gonna say when you you know, you know, I like the way one guy said do you think God knows? You're an atheist? Well, I'd like you guys to give our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave the program you

Could each take your turns. I'm not Anthony. Why don't we start with you? Yeah, sure. Well, I want people to know that Have an organization set up in the

New York area because generally the Northeast is devoid of apologetic Materials, but you have a resource that you can tap into on the website www .NewYorkApologetics

.com We also we're also on Twitter and Facebook Check out the website.

There's a lot of great information there Email us your questions because we also have a radio show on Friday and I'm not sorry a

Saturday and Sunday morning on Hope radio 94 .9 if listeners in our area in the

Lower Island area want to listen To listen to the program to send us in your questions

We're also available to speak at churches or colleges or any anywhere where anybody would benefit from this information

We we want to get this into the hands of especially college and high school kids because once you walk on that University campus

You are immediately a target and you're talked out of your faith and you talk out of your faith

Because you've never been talked into it you've never been given the proper understanding of the world that God created and all the evidence that in this world that points to him so, you know, my goal is obviously to see souls one for the kingdom of God and solidified in Confident in their faith as Christians to know the truth

Defend the truth advance the truth and live out the truth daily in their lives. And I know that Hope radio also live stream so people can listen to your program at Hope radio and why calm

Hope radio and why that common what what day and time was it again your program? Great and Nick if you could

I Always say first of all everything Anthony said I think is you know spot -on and the only thing

I can really add to that is that We really believe that if you are a

Christian and you're having a difficult time If you can't articulate your faith

If you if you have unanswered questions and you feel like you need that support and you need someone to help you

We're here for you. You can contact us on the website, you know in various ways But really there is hope out there and you not only have to just sort of be

You know your local church and everything which is great But you can be used by God in school and in the workplace on the college campuses.

We will view and That's really our heart's desire to equip the

Christian to be able to be part of the solution And I know that your website is

New York apologetics calm. That's New York spelled out Newyork Apologetics calm and you could look it to that website for upcoming events public debates and other things that are going on Thank you,

Anthony. You video and Nick Mitchell. I look forward to having you both back in the program very soon God bless you

Good to meet you too. Thank you. All righty. God bless you both and coming up next we are going to have

Frank Turek who is a world -renowned apologist and If you don't go away, you'll be hearing what

Frank Turek has to say about how atheists are stealing from God Sounds like a interesting

Concept. So if you don't go away, we're gonna be right back after these messages with Frank Turek and a discussion on his book stealing from God I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers

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Bibles find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NASBible .com

Trust discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to NASBible .com.

That's NASBible .com Tired of box -store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island Well, there's good news

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

Featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you

Call them at six three one nine two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one nine two nine

Thirty five twelve or check out their website at WRBC .us

That's WRBC .us Paul Wrote to the church at Galatia for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things? That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

Apostles priority It must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 That's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us

Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org

or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio

Welcome back. If you've just tuned us in our guest for the next hour is world -renowned

Christian apologist Frank Turk many of you have seen him on the NRB television network and you've read his books and We're gonna be talking about Not only his books stealing from God But a bunch of other things on today's program and we welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron

Frank Turek Hey Chris, thanks for having me on. I hope you're doing well up there in Long Island Yes, I'm a little bit under the weather right now, but God has given me enough strength to do the show today and I thank him for that and Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself before Becoming a world -renowned apologist.

Tell us something about your own personal testimony of coming to faith in Christ Well, I came to I grew up in New Jersey, by the way, just I'm sure you've heard of that It's not far from where you live

And it's not not far from Long Island I grew up a Mets fan a giant fan a jet fan, you know, you didn't have any teams of your own.

That's one That's right The Giants are now playing in New Jersey. Yes. There you go

In any event, I was brought up in the Catholic Church and I always believed in God I never had any problem with God But I never really knew who

Jesus was and it wasn't until I got into the Navy after college And by the way, Navy stands for never again volunteer

That I I ran into a guy who was the son of a Methodist minister and I had a lot of questions for him about Christianity he actually took me to a

Baptist service I thought it was interesting that I actually learned quite a bit in there because you know It was some music and then about 40 minutes of preaching.

I've never experienced that in my life before Normally the homily in a Catholic services, you know was six or seven minutes and so I was like wow

I'm learning something here, but I had a lot of questions So I kept asking him questions and he finally said well, you know You need to get these books by Josh McDowell evidence demands a verdict and more than a carpenter and so I did and actually came to faith by reading books like that and Then after the

Navy when I met Norman Geisler who turned out to be the Michael Jordan of apologetics

He had started a seminary down here in Charlotte where I live now and so we moved down here back in 1993 to attend the seminary and since that point

I've been involved in apologetics and written a few books and Now have a ministry called cross examined org that's cross examined with a

D on the end of it org and we have an app that people can download from the App Store for free and There's a lot of videos on our website that people can look at for free and articles and blogs and so check that out cross examined org

Cross examined org and hopefully we'll repeat that throughout the interview and I'd like to introduce

Frank to my co -host today Reverend Buzz Taylor Reverend Buzz Taylor has had experience pastoring churches in the

Baptist realm charismatic Pentecostal Finley Ohio Church of God and Presbyterian churches and And it's an honor and privilege to have him sitting in with us for this discussion today

And want you to greet each other. Hello. Good to meet you. Well, it's perfect a guy named buzz

Yes Yeah, that's right, yes

Buzz I was just out there in California with him last week And does he spell it with one or two Z's to oh see?

I only spell it with one because I tell everybody if it's two Z's it's a sound effect if it's one Z It's a name so Besides which in Genesis 22 21 buzzes in the

Bible with one Z Well, we already had our first two guests who you know very well

Anthony Ovinio and Nick Mitchell they They defined apologetics

But people may be tuning in for the first time right now, why don't you define apologetics? Well, it's basically given evidence for what you believe it comes from in the

Bible. It comes from first Peter 315 The Greek word is apology or apology. It doesn't mean you're saying you're sorry

It means you're given evidence for why you believe the Bible is true. Why you believe God exists?

Why you believe Jesus rose from the dead and this is commanded in Scripture in first Peter 315

So it's always ready to give an answer for the hope that you have but do this with gentleness and respect Which is hard for me the second part gentleness and respect because I am originally from,

New Jersey But in any event, we're supposed to do this We're supposed to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul strength and mind

Christians don't get brownie points for being stupid. Paul says that we're supposed to Destroy every argument against the

Christian faith and thought captive to Christ So this is this is commanded and it makes sense to do.

I'm gonna repeat our email address It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris a

RN Z n at gmail .com if you have a question for Frank Turek on anything regarding the

Christian faith specifically about apologetics in the realm of Defending the faith with atheists.

Perhaps you're an atheist yourself or an agnostic or you just You just don't know.

Yeah, you just don't know you're a wandering person Trying to find truth in this world and that's

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com You can remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter In fact, if it is about a personal private matter, we encourage you to be anonymous but if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residents and This is an interesting book.

I'm sure That's 99 % of the people who see at least 99 % of Christians who see the book on the shelf stealing from God Oh another book about time.

I was gonna say it's gonna be refreshing It's about tithing or something

But what why atheists need to need God to make their case?

That's a fascinating concept. Why don't you explain that? Yeah, it's not about tithing not that there's anything wrong with tithing but as you see the

Subtitle on there is my atheist need God to make their case and my point is is that most atheists today are materialist

In other words, they believe everything that exists is made of molecules. There is no immaterial realm There are no supernatural entities.

And so everything's made of molecules and atheists have all these arguments against God That unfortunately for them are immaterial

And so whenever they make an argument against God They are stealing from God in order to say he doesn't exist, let me just give you one example

Atheists say they're beacons of reason right that they are reasonable people and and They're the ones following reason yet.

On the other hand, they're materialist They think we're nothing but moist robots that were just molecular machines well if we're just molecular machines and Every thought we have is governed by the laws of physics and as a result of the laws of physics and nothing else

Then why should we believe? Anything we think including the thought that atheism is true.

So when atheists try and make arguments against God They're actually stealing the very concept of reason from God in order to say he doesn't exist

I talked about this as you know Chris because you moderated the debate between Michael Shermer and I back in April there at Stony Brook yes, and During the cross -examination really

Shermer didn't have any answer for this because there is no answer for this You know if you're claiming to be a materialist and you're claiming really you're just a moist robot

Then why should I believe anything you say because you're not really thinking you're just reacting. You're not being reasonable

You're you're no different than a coke can fizzing Right, and I think that you would agree that the major area where this is true

Especially lies in the different the differentiation between what is right and wrong they can have no

Concept right and wrong can they well, in fact That's another aspect of the book and that the book is the book is called stealing from God Why atheists need

God to make their case case and it's built around this acronym crime CRI MES and each letter stands for a different aspect of reality that atheists often use to claim

Atheism is true yet. None of those things would exist unless Theism were true and the

M in crime stands for morality. That's what you were just talking about Chris Yeah, there there can't be anything ultimately wrong with it with with anything

Unless God exists. I mean if there is no God then torturing babies for fun isn't really wrong it's just your opinion because there's no moral authority beyond you or me or It's not really wrong to murder six million

Jews in a Holocaust That's just your opinion against Hitler's opinion You see in order to say that something's really right or wrong

There has to be a moral authority a moral standard of goodness and any deviation from that standard would be evil or wrong

Well that standard doesn't exist in an atheistic worldview. Remember, we're just molecules in motion yet Atheists have all sorts of moral

They believe in in fact Michael Shermer at our debate was trying to say same -sex marriage was a good thing

Well, there's no such thing as good or bad even if atheism is true including same -sex marriage natural marriage, whatever

Yeah, we're marriage. Yeah And in fact, they would even go to the lengths as Christopher Hitchens the late

Christopher Hitchens did and of course, he knows better now He called the

New Testament evil. Yeah, he has no grounds to claim it evil In fact, I had a couple of debates with Christopher there

They can be seen for free on our website cross examined org That's cross -examined with the

D on the end of it. He was brilliant, by the way, very Articulate and since he had a British accent, he sounded even more brilliant than he really was

You know, but he didn't really have arguments mostly most atheists don't have arguments what they have are complaints

About how God is running the universe Yeah, I had the the privilege of having a discussion with Christopher not long before he died

He had agreed to participate in a debate on Long Island with my friend. Dr James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries And then he had to pull out of the debate when the esophageal cancer was diagnosed

I think that's what it was that he had and but I had it actually a very cordial and humorous conversation with him and I Can remember him making fun of his agent's name.

He said You could speak to my agent Jessica fee. That's a great name for an agent, isn't it?

See Fee? Yeah, but he was Very warm.

I was surprised by that because I've seen him be very brutal with Christians on TV and right but one of the things that David Silverman Who is the president of American atheists the organization?

Madeline Murray O 'Hare founded in the 60s, I believe David Silverman when he took

Christopher Hitchens place in that debate on is the New Testament evil, which was actually the theme he

Had to admit just as you said that if if he was being marched through the gates of Auschwitz and and our listeners should be

Reminded that David Silverman is an atheist Jew. He's of Jewish ethnicity If you were being marched through the gates of Auschwitz The only thing that you could really say in protest is that I find this personally offensive and he admitted yes

Yeah, well, in fact, I had a similar debate with Silverman and he said the same thing in our debate

We have actually have a clip on our website over He basically said that the Holocaust was just a matter of opinion and when

I backed him into the corner on it So at least he's honest, you know, he's honest that if atheism is true

There is no real objective rightness, which means there can be no objective wrongness

The problem is it's more obvious that torturing babies for fun is wrong

Then it is that atheism is true So if torturing babies for fun is wrong, then

God exists Yes, and he actually Silverman did give a criteria for what was right and wrong what any given population

Believes in the majority in any different any given era of history would be the right thing

Well, that's even a determination. Yes Why should we believe you and that being the definition of exactly?

Yeah, he's just inventing a standard Why not if Stalin comes along he says I don't care about your majority

David I'm gonna kill you and everybody that gets in my way. How am I wrong if there's no authority between above you or me?

We do have a listener in Center Reach, Long Island, New York Reverend Bruce and he says do you see any biblical or theological problems with a

Christian who believes? That it is possible for God to have created an infinite amount of creations.

I Don't see a theological. It is a theological price more philosophical problem because any finite creation can't be infinite

You can't have you can't have an infinite number of atoms. You can't have an infinite number of marbles

You can't have an infinite number of universes Anything that's finite is numbered and has a limit to it

So there could be other creations. There could be other universes out there. That's one of the

Theories the Atheists put forth to try and avoid the obvious Designed -ness of the universe they try and say well our universe just looks designed

But it just got this way by chance because there's many other Universes out there and we just happen to be the lucky one so to speak.

I mean talk about faith, right? But anyway They it is possible.

There are other universes out there. Of course, we can't access them because we can only observe our universe but You can't have an infinite number of creations or an infinite number of universes because you can't have an infinite number of anything

That's finite and by the way pastor Bruce You're going to get a free copy of stealing from God why atheists need

God to make their case compliments of the publishers So make sure that we have your mailing address and we'll get that out to you

As soon as possible for your good question. And once again, the email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com You know struck me Chris that it would be easier for you to get mail if you just took buzzes first name and got rid of your last name

Mail .com Radio thing, you know Well, my email address a part of it is buzzwords

Okay and The what is the most frequent objection that you hear?

From atheists or those who reject the Christian faith thrown into your face.

What is the most frequent thing you hear? Well, we get four basic objections to Christianity They all begin with the letter e and in fact in our on our app the cross -examined app

You can see these in the quick answer section cross examined two words in the App Store The four categories of objections we get

Chris over and over again And I think this is true of anybody trying to defend the Christian faith is that you're going to get objections

From evil, you know, if God why evil that's the first e the second e is you're going to get objections evolution

Well, you know if evolution is true, then Christianity is false, of course, that's nonsense Even if evolution were true

Christianity necessarily wouldn't be false, but let's leave that aside The third e would be ethics, you know

What why did God kill the Canaanites in the Old Testament for example, or what does God have against homosexuality or any kind of?

sexual behavior outside of marriage between a man and a woman and then the fourth category of objections are eternity like will

God send me to hell just because I don't believe in Jesus or What about those that have never heard these types of questions, so it's basically those big four evil evolution

Ethics and eternity. I find it interesting that you say Evil in ethics since ethics define evil.

How do you define how do you divide those? Well evil usually the question is is given.

Well, if there's a good God, why is all this why is there evil in the world? And that's although it's related to the ethics question, it's kind of a question on its own

It's a big topic on its own Odyssey. Yeah, the Odyssey, right, right now

Of course This is one of the ways that atheists steal from God the E in crimes in the book stealing from God is evil

Because atheists will say well, there's too much evil in the world and the response to that is what do you mean by evil?

You see there would be no evil unless there were good and there'd be no such thing as good unless God existed

So evil is not an argument against God evil is actually a backhanded argument for God Because there'd be no such thing as evil unless there were good and there'd be no such thing as good unless God existed

So I know this sounds counterintuitive, but the truth is if evil exists Then God exists.

Yes. Yes And Well, I was just kind of curious if the chapters of your book follow the

Crimes acronym that you've given us they do they start with causality then they then the chapter 2 goes to reason then

I is information and intentionality then And morality he is evil and s is science

Hey, you try and say that science is on their side. The truth is science and Christianity are not at odds science and atheism are at odds.

Oh, yes Well, why don't you go through a an explanation a brief summary of each of those headings?

Of each of those. Yeah. Well if we can't nobody will buy the book then We do have 40 minutes

Well, why don't we just talk about science for a second sure you always hear people saying well, you know science points to To atheism and all this first of all

If someone would ever say to you that science Well, let me how much time do we have here

Chris? We have commercials in this. Yes, you have Nine minutes before commercial. Okay. All right. I love it.

Let me just let me just ask you guys a couple of questions And that is

Let's go back to the OJ Simpson trial Can we do that? Sure. Okay, as you know was

Can you believe the trial was 20 over 20 21 years ago amazing amazing that's how long it was in the news

Yeah, I know it was it was in the news so much. But yeah, it was 21 years ago that OJ Was tried for Killing his ex -wife and her boyfriend.

I'm gonna ask you guys a question. I asked the audience a question Okay, I'm gonna give you some evidence for the trial and and then and then you guys answer the question just here's some of the

Evidence OJ Simpson's blood was at the scene of the crime and there's only a one in a hundred and seventy million chance

It's not Simpsons blood number two Goldman Brown and Simpson all their blood the two victims and OJ's blood was in Simpsons Bronco You remember the white

Broncos the glove at the scene? Had blood from all three and it matched the glove at Simpsons house and Simpson was seen wearing those gloves on the

NFL a Broadcast remember I used to be the NFL sideline reporter. Yes Okay, number four the bloody footprints at the scene were from a rare brand of size 12 shoes

No, Molly's what were they Bruno Molly's? Yeah, there's only a hundred ninety nine Of those pairs sold in the u .s.

And Simpson had one of them and then finally Nicole Brown Simpsons blood was on Simpsons socks and there's only a one in twenty one billion chance

That it wasn't her blood which means Nicole Brown Simpson is probably the only person in the history of the world that had that blood

Now, here's my question the science show that OJ was killed. I Yeah, I would say point that way, but the real answer is no

Not because I think OJ's innocent, but because science doesn't say anything scientists do

Yes, you're right. You see science does there's no such thing as science. There's no there's no entity out there known as science

Is a method of inquiry that human beings used to discover cause and effect relationships Okay, so it's it's the same thing as sproles chance

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah chance. It's not a cause. Yeah, I would say right well science doesn't exist unless human beings exist and human beings have to gather the data and then interpret it and no data is self -interpreting and Yet scientists try and say well atheism is proven or they they intimate that that anyway

That is that science somehow disproves God or or approves atheism

Science doesn't say anything It's scientists that do and it turns out that many scientists come to their conclusion that there is no

God by their philosophical Presupposition that God doesn't exist

In other words, they have this methodological naturalism and this metaphysical naturalism whereby they say well

God doesn't exist So everything works by the laws of physics. Well, that's not a conclusion Based on the evidence, that's a presupposition regardless of the evidence

Same thing is true when when they look at say Macroevolution, for example Richard Dawkins when you ask him, what's his best evidence for macroevolution?

You know what? He says well because we have a common genetic code. First of all, that's not even true There's not a common genetic code.

There's about 20 different codes. We've discovered but there is a dominant one and and what what

What Dawkins tries to say is okay That evidence points toward a common ancestor.

We have a common genetic code must be a common ancestor Well, you know Dawkins could be right about that. That's one possible interpretation of the evidence

But what's the other impossible interpretation? He's not even considering. Well, it could be a common creator or common designer, right?

Now a science won't tell you what the right answer is all science does is it? Allows you to use a process whereby you can get the data and then you have to make a judgment and I'm saying that many times scientists are basing their opinions or their interpretations on the evidence or Basing their interpretations of the evidence based on their previous philosophical presupposition.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. In fact, I had a Guest on not long ago. Colonel Jeffrey Williams, who is a

Christian astronaut and he's actually going on a Space launch God willing next month.

It's gonna be in the space station for six months And I had children from different Christian schools all over the

United States submit questions for him from kindergarten through twelfth grade and one of them was do you believe in life on other planets and Although he wouldn't have used the exact wording that I'm giving the the essence of it was

That you have to have a presupposition to believe that there is life on other planets because the science tells you life would not survive

On any of the other planets that we know of right that we know of right not the kind of life

We know about yeah, right. Well, there could be life on other planets We don't know because it's a big universe most scientists say that there are so many factors that need to be precisely fine -tuned that despite the fact that there are

Stars equivalent to the number of grains of sand on all the beaches on all the earth out there they doubt that there's life out there because The the the planets and the

Sun and the the big the big gravity Planet like Jupiter needs to be in a certain relationship to the life planet

I mean, there's just too many factors that need to be right to have biological life as we know it and Basically what

I meant in regarding representing Colonel Jeffrey Williams is that to say it with certainty that you believe that there's life on other planets

The only way you can have a belief like that is to have a presupposition about it. Yeah, or you could say I Looked at the evidence.

The Bible is true and the Bible says there are angels out there Okay, and then and we're gonna be going to a break right now.

We have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions answered so what we thank you for your patience and If you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com That's ch r .a s a r n z e n at gmail .com

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Or visit Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is

Chris Arnson if you've just tuned us in we have had on for the last half hour our guest

Frank Turek and He is discussing a book of his Stealing from God and we also have in studio with me today

Buzz Taylor the Reverend Buzz Taylor who is serving as my co -host if you'd like to join us on the air

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com that's Chris Arnson at gmail .com

and before I Return to our discussion. I just have to give a quick shout -out to someone from the church that we just heard and add for Linbrook Baptist Church Who for many years has kept iron sharpens iron on the air?

Harry Dantona Has been named the Crossroads League field athlete of the week the league office announced today at Taylor University and He is

Harry Dantona his dad Sal Dantona is a deacon at Linbrook Baptist Church And antenna propelled the

TU men's indoor track and field team To a team victory in the five -team field at the

Taylor Invitational on Saturday scoring 16 points For the Trojans as Taylor collected of 183 points to edge

Indiana Wesleyan by two points a junior from Rockville Center, New York Dantona won the weight throw with a career -best heave of 15 .83

meters to best the field of eight competitors Dantona Collected a third place finish in the shot put with a with a toss of thirteen point 67 meters as well and Dantona is the first men's indoor track and field athlete to be honored as the

Crossroads League field athlete of the week in 2016 and we just Congratulate him and his dad

Sal Dantona and everyone at Linbrook Baptist Church, and we once again thank you for helping to make iron sharpens iron possible and for keeping us on the air and Once again, our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com We do have a listener

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania who asks isn't there a danger at making people feel?

Comfortable just by their acknowledgement that they are theists that they believe in the existence of God isn't there a lot more to it than that such as the shed blood of Christ for the remission of sins and the

Worship and following of Jesus Christ the second person of the Trinity Is there a danger and just saying that you're a theist and you're okay?

Is that the question or making people feel more comfortable making people feel comfortable in just the fact

That they believe in God like you will you will very frequently here Even on Fox News, for instance,

I Listen to Fox News a lot. I like a lot of what I hear, but I don't agree with everybody on there either

But you will sometimes get an idea that people Think you're swell and all is well just because you believe that God exists, but that there's more to life

Oh, absolutely, and I'm not sure What the question has to do with what we're talking about.

I will leave the innocent as far as the one evangelizing Isn't there a danger in like walking away and making that person feel?

That they have nothing to fear because they're a theist because they believe that God exists Yeah, well from an apologetic perspective

You want to see where people are before you try and give them evidence like if they're already theist, okay, great

Now let's talk about Jesus, right? But if they're not theist Then you've got to give them evidence that God exists.

So it really depends on where the person is Yeah, I don't just want to leave somebody at the ism

But on the other hand every time you have a conversation with somebody you don't have to lead him to the foot of the cross

It's impossible to do though. Sometimes you're just what you're just planting seeds in him I'm talking to an atheist on a college campus, which

I do quite frequently He may have a problem with the idea that God exists.

So I'm gonna give him evidence that God exists I'm just planting a seed in his mind that God exists and his worldview is fault

I may not get all the way to Jesus died and rose again for your sins because there's not enough time, but that's okay

You know as Paul says some plants some waters and water and others give the increase Yes, and Also on the other side of the coin as we all know

They were theists very strict theists who flew a plane into the world. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah, there's no question about that So it depends on you know, what the nature of your interaction is is with somebody

So, you know, sometimes you can't get all the way to the foot of the cross other times You can't let me say one other thing, you know people say well,

I'd led somebody to Christ today Well, yeah, you did but you didn't because that person may have

Come to Christ today, and you may have been the one to Ultimately with the help of the

Holy Spirit put them over the edge, but there was a lot going on before that Right the person, you know had a whole bunch of other experiences

They've got them to the point that today was the day they become saved You know and the buzz yes, well it gets back to the

Scripture that you quoted at the beginning of the hour where we are tearing down all speculations, you know, every thought raised against the the obedience of of Christ and Really an argument against theism is an argument against Christ an argument against against what against Christ?

An argument against atheism. Yes an arguments against theism is Yeah, okay, that's right.

Yeah, of course So yeah, if if atheists are saying there is no God will give evidence that there is a

God then you can move on to Jesus you can't always do that. Let's be let's be realistic Yeah, you can't always get there in a five -minute conversation with somebody can't do it, right?

And by the way, Susan you are also getting a free copy of Stealing from God by Frank Turek.

And by the way, Chris, I don't know if you know it but in the book It's not just that that there is a theistic

God. We do give the case that Christianity is true in the book Yes from God so but what we're doing there is we're dealing with the arguments that atheists give and show them and And and you know show the people reading the book that atheists are stealing from God while they're arguing against him

And atheists is like somebody who says I don't believe in guns and then he steals your gun and tries to shoot you with it And Telling you like it is

We have Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Who wants to know how do you answer the retort?

From either a Muslim or a liberal who might support? Islam who says

Christianity is just as littered with violence as Islam who are you to judge their religion as a religion of violence?

Well, first of all, I don't have to judge Islam as a religion of violence Muhammad did himself

If you just read surahs eight and surahs nine, he says strike the heads off the infidels He says may

Allah destroy the Christians and the Jews may Allah prepare prepare them for every ambush in In his biography written by Ibn Ishaq He said kill every

Jew that comes into your power When Muhammad was asked what's the greatest commandment? He said to believe in Allah and the second greatest commandment is to participate in jihad

So I don't have to make a case Islam is violent Muhammad already has now again whenever you say this you always have to say well most

Muslims are not like that I agree with that, but what their texts say and what their founder did

Points to a very violent religion again, not everybody believes in that thankfully But that's just what the text say so you don't have to you don't have to look it

Don't take my word for it. Don't read the Koran Go read surahs eight and surah nine. You can just start there.

Well the the questioner Christian in Cumberland County basically is saying yeah, but you

Christians believe the Old Testament is God -breathed It's not just a book of legend and fairy tales.

You believe that it's true and Among those stories we read we have

God commanding the Israelites to slaughter men women and children Exactly and for that I Recommend a book that Paul Copan has written called is

God a moral monster, and let me just give you a very short Response that someone like Copan would say to that if you read say

Deuteronomy 7 where you read these It says you know kill everyone Then you read the next verse and it says and then don't intermarry with them

And you're going wait a minute if you're going to kill everybody how could you intermarry with any of them? They're all gone Well the point that Copan makes is that in the ancient

Near East This kind of hyperbolic language was very common It might just just like we might say well we we wiped out the opponent in a sporting event right we annihilated them

Well, this is what what's going on in the Old Testament according to Copan Obviously if you're going to wipe everybody out you can't intermarry with them

It makes no sense to even have that command afterwards And so the idea here is that these are hyperbolic commands to drive people out of the land who by the way were engaged in child sacrifice and God said let's put an end to this let's drive them out of here, but let's say

Copan's wrong about that Let's say those commands were literal. Here's my question My question is somebody who asked this is

When God kills people in the Old Testament does he do do so for no reason no or does he have a reason?

He has a reason and if you look at the moral record of the Canaanites They were literally sacrificing their children on the molten metal hot

God called Molech where a child would literally be fried to death in front of everyone and The second question

I usually ask people is this that when God killed somebody here on earth is he murdering them

Of course the answer is no because God can't murder anyone God is the giver of life He's the taker of life if he wants to kill us at two years old or 82 years old

That's up to him. We have no right to life He is the one that has a right to life that he can take our life at any point

He wants to and if Christianity is true, of course We never really die.

We just change location, right? We just go from this location to the afterlife and God can do that any time he wants now

I just said we don't have a right to life what I meant was We don't have the power over life and death God has the power over life and death and he can take our lives anytime he wants and by the way

When when when people say this kind of thing Chris, I normally ask them this question as well Particularly people like Bill Maher.

I've been on Bill Maher show before No, I don't think I well the God of the Bible is evil and all this and yet Bill Maher will also be for abortion and So my question is this why is it that when

God plays God in the Old Testament? And decides who lives and who dies he's immoral

But when Bill Maher plays God here on earth and decides who lives and dies, that's a moral, right?

Yeah, he was just very Repugnantly and glibly stating that if Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton don't win this presidential election

You're gonna get I have to go to London for an abortion and even the which I would guess would be a secular

Audience predominantly on the show that he was on groaned And I don't think they were groaning at his proposition.

I think they were groaning that he dared to Uphold abortion in such a flippant way like not only that but people don't understand that even if Roe v.

Wade were overturned that would not outlaw abortion What it would do is it would take the situation back to the constitutional

Situation we had prior to 1973 and that is that every state gets to determine

What the laws on abortion are in their state so it would go back to the state Legislatures, and they would have to decide there might be some states

That may be Alabama without law abortion But maybe California would keep it legal and you see so people don't even understand what they're talking about when they're talking about Roe v.

Wade Roe v. Wade Roe v. Wade was a complete judicial overreach much like this recent same -sex marriage case

In fact, I have an article today on the stream and townhall .com on Justice Scalia the title of it is

Scalia defended democracy liberals subverted and And what

Scalia does and and does and did so well, I don't know if you followed him much Chris you You probably have if you've been

Interested in politics at all. Here was his one of his opening lines in his dissent in that in that Same -sex marriage case.

Here's his opening line. I write separately to call attention to this court's threat to American democracy

He went on to say this practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine

Always accompanied as it is today by extravagant praise of Liberty Robs the people of the most important Liberty they asserted in the

Declaration of Independence and one in the revolution of 1776 the freedom to govern ourselves

He went on to say a system of government that makes the people Subordinate to a committee of nine unelected lawyers does not deserve to be called a democracy

Amen When justices are determining what our laws are rather than interpreting and applying what our laws already have been established to be

We no longer govern ourselves We have Bob in White Plains, New York Who wants to know how do you answer the often repeated retort that religion is the cause of more brutality

Mutilation torture and murder than anything else on the planet Earth since time began

My that basically religion is evil. My first question is what do you mean by evil? Right, and and because people will try to give you examples of evil

Like they'll try and say torture or murder or those kind of things like that gentleman just did But I'm not asking for examples.

I'm asking for a definition and when people try and define evil They can't define evil without appealing to good

But if there's good then God exists So yes religion may have done evil things or certain religions have

But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist and it doesn't mean that Christianity's fault You see you don't judge a worldview by its abuse you judge it by its precepts or by what it's supposed to be for and Christianity is not for murdering people.

It's for protecting people So I would I would also mention that The worldview that is killed far more people than world religions throughout history is called atheism and if you look at the last century and you look at Stalin Pol Pot and and Mao you have well over 70 million people murdered by those atheistic

Or than religions have done in all of recorded history, and of course there are

Numerous religions that we as Christians would identify as evil. Anyway, yeah And we are constantly being blamed for the wickedness of the

Roman Catholic Church in ancient times and basically up through the 17th century and also of the magisterial

Protestants did have their hand in that but now I don't want to pat my

Fellow Baptists on the back too much here But as a people the

Baptists have have never been a part of that kind of thing. You have individual Crazy Baptists doing things you have

Baptists who are in the Ku Klux Klan and so on But you have Christians throughout history that were never involved in brutality

But Chris the whole premise there of People being involved who are claimed to be

Christians is misguided because they are going against the words of Christ That's right.

Exactly They are not they are not in accord with the words of Christ are going against the word of word the words of Christ on The other hand you look at Islam You are if you're involved in jihad just following what

Muhammad did and what the Quran says, you know, by the way, Bob You're also getting a free copy of stealing from God by Frank Turek So make sure that we have your mailing address and thank you very much for the very good question

And that was a good segue from Bill Maher because he brings that up ad nauseam infinitum Have you ever oh you did say that you were actually on the program with him

What is he like to talk about off -air is he? More cordial and easy to get along with when you're just sitting there in a room without the cameras rolling

Yeah, I think most most of these guys are I mean, I have nothing against any of them in fact Bill Maher and I were in agreement in our second program because we were talking like two months after 9 -11

We're talking about Islam and he and I are in agreement and this Muslim that was on the show with us was trying to say

I quoted a couple of Quranic verses and she said you're not gonna get anywhere by demon it demonized in the

Quran and I was about to jump back in But more said we're not demonizing the Quran by reading it I Read it.

Let me give Bill Maher his do he's absolutely right when it comes to Islam. Yes. He is against the broad brushing of Liberals who will try to make the claim that Islam is just as dangerous as Christianity.

Yeah, I know he's right about that Yeah, he totally is and even Richard Dawkins was right recently in talking to Bill Maher Richard Dawkins to his credit

Said a lot of people think that Islam is a race It's not a race

It's a world view in religion and I may get some flack for this

But his documentary religious there was a lot of nonsense that he was exposing

That goes on in the name of Christianity that should be exposed that sure. Yeah, that should be refuted

He just didn't have the fairness to have more Brilliant men of God as a part of that Documentary I noticed he didn't have

William Lane Craig on there. Did he I believe he may have had very briefly Ken Ham But I don't have well, yeah, that's that's different though.

He's Ken Ham is is is taking a View that isn't mainstream among scientists and so don't mock

Ken Ham But if they had William Lane Craig on and and and did more of a an interview with him and said here's a guy

That's a Christian too, but they of course, they don't do that They they they they want to just characterize anybody who they disagree with as being backward, right?

Well, I want to make sure that we in the eight minutes that we have left that you

Let our listeners know exactly what you want to be etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this broadcast and then we'll take some more listener questions if we have time for that when you're finished because I just want to make sure that the thrust of what you want

Our listeners to leave with is spoken to that Well, the trust is that Christianity is true and you can show it's true and in the book stealing from God Why atheists need

God to make their case we go through that We also have another book called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist You may have heard of you co -authored that was

Norman Geisler That's right with Norman Geisler and you just have to answer four questions to show that Christianity is true And that is does truth exist does

God exist our miracles possible? And it's the New Testament reliable if the answer to every one of those questions is yes, then

Christianity is true. Yes There is truth. Yes. God exists. Yes miracles are possible And yes the

New Testament's reliable and that's what we lay out and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist and in an abbreviated sense in Stealing from God why atheists need

God to make their case. Let me throw out one other thing I'd want them to do Chris and that is to download the free app that I mentioned earlier cross -examine two words

If they do that They'll get a wealth of information in there because all of our podcasts are up there as well as a quick answer section

I mentioned earlier about the four E's the four objections we get that all begin with the letter E that's all in there and There's questions in there.

You can ask people when you're having conversations with them like one question I like to ask atheists all the time or anybody that's not a believer is this if Christianity were true

Would you become a Christian? Hmm the reason I ask that question is because quite frequently it's not reason or evidence that is in their way

They don't want Christianity to be true. Why because they're not on a truth quest.

They're on a happiness quest They just want to believe whatever they think is gonna make them happy and they think

Christianity is gonna get in their way of that We do have a listener and Harrisburg BB who wants to know how do you avoid letting pride get in the way of when you're having a discussion about faith with an unbeliever and Isn't this sometimes just a matter of having a victory and a notch in your belt?

Even the best of Christians can fall into that trap you get married Any other practical advice

I Will say my newest book is coming out

Chris. It's called ten steps to humility and how I made it in seven Well, I think what you got to remember is what

Robbie Zachariah so eloquently said he said whenever you're answering a question Remember, you're not just answering a question. You're answering a person

Like for example, some people ask me the question if God why evil? Well, one person may be asking a question in an academic sense, right?

But another person may ask the same question who just had their baby die a week ago Right. Yeah, there are two different answers for that.

One is a pastoral answer. Another is a philosophical answer You don't want to give a philosophical answer to a pastoral situation and so you have to figure out where the person's coming from and I think it's been said before that Evangelism is just one beggar showing another beggar where the food is.

Mm -hmm, right? We're all beggars ultimately We're no better than anyone else

Because we're all sinners and we all need to be saved So when people say well,

I can't go to church because there's too many hypocrites down there I always say come on down pal. We got room for one more

We're all hypocrites That's why we need a Savior. In fact, I said to Christopher Hitchens in our second debate.

I said I agree with you Christopher I am a hypocrite. I can't live up to what this book says, but if I could live up to it

I wouldn't need a Savior. I wouldn't need Jesus Well, BB you're also getting a free copy of Frank Turek's book so make sure that we have your mailing address as well

Thank you for writing in. Hey, I need to call in and get one of these free books. This is pretty good And there is always the the tightrope walk that we as Christians Walk on trying not to go too far to the left or too far to the right when it comes to How serious are our differences?

I am a dyed -in -the -wool Red -blooded five -point Calvinist and I know that you are not

Because all the evidence points that way I'll buy that but how do we tenaciously hold to what we believe to be true and yet Recognize that we have brothers in Christ for whom

Christ did die that disagree with us on these issues and then still

Be able to maintain a working relationship out there Witnessing to the lost without letting these differences get too hostile

I mean that may be a impossible task on this side of glory, but it's something we must strive for isn't it?

Yeah, I think we read Romans chapter 14 because that's what Paul talks about in Romans chapter 14 He basically says don't major in the minors.

You know, there are some essentials We we have to be unified on and if somebody says they're Christian But they deny

God exists or they deny Jesus is the Savior or they deny Jesus was God Well, we're not going to fellowship with them because that's what's called heresy but we may have differences over secondary issues like age of the earth you say or Calvinism or Molanism or Armenia or Minyanism or some of these other ways of looking at God and and free choice and all these

Things you know, we we could have differences over that and still work together For the common good and Christians have done that throughout

Time. Well, that's what keeps us humble. I used to agree with Chris And When it comes to keeping the person's soul primary and Well, actually the the glorifying and honoring of God primary in the person's soul a second runner -up

How do you maintain that patience when you are not only just Having an inquisitive conversation over coffee, but having somebody

Screaming at you. I mean is there a time to stop casting your pearls before swine and walk away?

Well, I think I think when you ask the question if Christianity were true Would you become a Christian and they either hesitate or say no all you can do it for them is pray for them then and Love them

But you can't you for probably better off to kick the dust off your sandals and go somewhere else to somebody who is open

That's why that question is so effective. It just clears the decks of all the the moral and volitional objections so I think that you ought to ask that question, but I can almost guarantee you this if there's somebody in your life who's really

Resistant and you can continue to love them and be in their life as much as you can One day there's probably going to be a tragedy in that person's life and their and your phone is going to ring and that person

Is going to be on the other end because when something Something tragic happens, they're not gonna call their atheist buddies, right?

They're gonna call you and then and buzz you had a question Well, even as you were defining Apologetics, of course, you went to Peter's statement to be ready to give it an answer for the reason of the hope

You know that you have within you But the verse didn't end there as far as addressing the pride issue

The very next phrase does that because we're supposed to do that with humility with respect. That's right for the other person

So it's not like you have to well I can't really defend the faith because I might come across as proud and that's something

I have to deal with but I have to Defend the faith and we're out of time. Please Frank. Give us your website one more time Yeah cross examined org that's cross examined with a

D on the end of it org And don't forget to download the the app and also like our

Facebook page cross examined org and dr Frank Turek and look out for Frank's TV program on NRB TV I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions

I want to thank my co -host buzz Taylor and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ Is a far greater