Can Charismatic Gifts and Benny Hinn be Defended?

Apologetics Live

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00:18

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

00:33

Yes, we're live and Those who are watching our video. Let me just bring drew in right away drew something a little different Yeah, yeah.

00:42

Um, okay. You're about to set sail on the high seas Yeah, well, you know, maybe what it is is living waters did a uh,

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I was out in huntington beach some time ago, and this is a couple years ago Uh ray and I were evangelizing and this guy dressed as a pirate jumped up and and so everybody was uh, they they

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Know me as the the what was how did ray word that video the uh, bold preacher you know, uh

01:12

Something bold preacher false false teacher. I forget what it is But so maybe I was trying to look like the pirate in that video, but no, no, that's actually not it

01:20

I mean, look, we even got kofi jumping in our matey. There we go. Yeah So, yes for those on the audio podcast, uh, this is andrew rapaport

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I'm, the host of apologetics live and I am wearing an eyepatch for a reason

01:37

So, uh, I figured to get this out of the way right in the beginning Um, I have double vision

01:43

Uh, it seems to be if I cover one of either of my eyes it goes away after last week's show um looking at the screen for two hours, uh being close it it gave me a splitting headache um, and so I just figured

01:58

I would look funny But at least I won't feel bad because I could not wait until the show ended

02:06

Last week so you are You are out of there pretty quick, yeah You were out of there, but I have

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I have to ask you a question What's what's a pirate's favorite letter? Oh, that's such a bad, you know

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That's not even worthy of answering. It's so bad, but I mean Kofi already answered.

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Oh, yeah R you'd think it'd be r but it's the c No, it's r

02:38

You're wrong you just you just don't want to admit defeat I get it. All right, so All right, so, uh

02:47

Jody is saying, uh, where was it? Uh, good. Good evening. The bad jokes are already starting

02:56

Dad jokes. Yeah The really bad jokes are drew's theology of post -millennialism.

03:03

That's the really bad joke but When he gets to heaven and realizes he's wrong see jason jason is okay folks

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Those in the chat. Let's go for it. If you're in the chat please give us a a

03:19

C or an r if you think that is the the right answer to that joke Says yeah, jason called me he called me and left a message brother.

03:30

I've just been super busy I'll listen to your message You haven't even listened to his message.

03:36

Wow, that's bad Note to self if I need to get a message to drew Do it three weeks before okay

03:45

Oh, oh look at this brother brother. John is just he's a good politician. He says cr

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Yeah, he doesn't really make it in in uh doesn't want to commit Okay, so we we have we have a pirate, uh flag uh

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Facebook user says it's I You give instructions of an r or c and people just have to go outside the bounds.

04:11

Oh look Look what d says though. Well c kind of makes sense now that I think about it

04:17

Thank you kind of makes sense, but not the answer to the joke that everyone knows. So uh

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Okay, strange intro. We are we're gonna get into today. We're gonna be we have uh

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James park he's gonna join us Uh, we're gonna he I actually would have to go back and figure out how

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He and I got connected. Um, it was on facebook somewhere and and He was uh defending benny hinn's ministry and I said, hey, would you want to come in to politics live and do that?

04:46

He said sure And so we said, okay um So that's what we're going to end up doing today um so Actually, you know,

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I just see kt is is posted this and she says he's arr actually so it's it goes quite well

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So she's saying it's even my initials are fitting with the The pirate patch there.

05:12

Okay Total sidebar drew. Why do pirates? wear a patch

05:22

I don't know. I need the cricket sounds right now. Okay, there is actually a reason for this I learned this when

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I was in jamaica where the pirates would go to and they would hide rum and gold and different things in the caves and I discovered this is actually true because What ended up happening was

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I was wearing the patch for a day And my one eye adjusted to the dark because what happens is if I try to close one eye all day it

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It becomes painful By the end of day, so I had one eye Uh covered in the patch and when

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I took the patch off at night in the dark One eye that was covered in the patch saw perfectly and if I closed that eye,

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I couldn't see anything And so what they would do is they would take the patch and just move it to the other eye

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When they went in the cave and they could see and then they moved back into the daylight and switched it back

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And so they could quickly get in and out of caves So I one of the things I learned about when I was in jamaica, I know

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I know a lot about pirate history But I don't I didn't I never knew that one. That's yeah yeah it

06:26

Sounds logical. Yeah, that's that's what I was told when we were going through the caves in jamaica. So Uh, we you and I decided we'd come up with a game for our audience today audience

06:37

You guys are going to get to help us out um Do some participation before james it gets james is at backstage

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We're going to bring him in and I see pedro and eric backstage We're going to bring them in at the top of the hour with any questions.

06:50

I have you guys are that are backstage can give private chat as well

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So you guys are able to communicate with us if if pedro eric you guys have questions feel free to let us know uh, but I I saw this on uh

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Social media this morning and thought this could be really fun drew it. I saw someone said how did they manage to discover aliens?

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But not where Uh, but not even one of epstein's clients right

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Okay, I was at a gathering last weekend and Bunch of christians and someone brought up the thing of aliens

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He said what do you think about aliens? This is really popular in the in the In news right about now and so people are talking about hearing on it

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Yeah, and so what happened was as soon as well The one person asked me the question one of the other guys goes turns his wife to see everybody's talking about aliens

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And I said why well, I think that the whole talk of aliens is I believe is nothing more than a salacious way to get something in the news other than all of the corruption

08:05

Joe biden's doing And so, I mean you can't keep indicting trump it's going to become obvious after four times that there's bad news for biden and trump gets a new indictment and The bad news for biden is coming so fast and furious

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They can't keep up with it takes time to create the you know, these indictments and I think they're running out of them

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So let's talk aliens So we're going to play a game. We're going to see Uh, how many other things couldn't be found other than just epstein's clients?

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And an audience you're going to you're going to get to to jump in as well things that you think can't be discovered just we can't seem to find the answers to and we're going to give extra points if And and drew an audience.

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We all have to be honest uh We can't steal someone else's so you get extra points if someone comes up with something you didn't think of all right, so those in the in the chat are going to be able to chat away and And give their answers i'm going to give my first two and then we'll go with drew your first two

09:10

My first my first one immediately. I thought about this there How is it they're able to manage to discover aliens?

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But they cannot even discover who brought the coke in the white house Is my first that's at the top of my list

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Okay All right, my second one and this is one

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I think would it be would it be on on your list? um Although if you saw what

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I posted on social media, you might They they they're able to discover aliens, but they can't figure out who put the bomb planted the bombs on january 5th

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That one was not on my bingo card that was not on your bingo card. So, okay i'll get a point for that I really forgot about that that there was a bomb there.

09:56

That's right They they had bombs on the 5th, which was really neat if you because the the bombs that were planted at the rnc and the dnc

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In america, that's the two political parties Here in america, and so there were bombs on january 6th that were discovered 20 minutes before Congress, uh before the senate met on january 6th, and there was 20 minutes left on the timer

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They were set to go off. You know, it was kind of interesting though If you if you actually found did any research into it the timer they had was an egg timer

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You can only go for an hour and this person planted it At like three in the morning the night before and then set the egg timer

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But both timers just they were discovered right at 20 minutes I mean they had they had bomb sniffing dogs

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In the dnc when when kamala harris walked through but none of them picked up any bomb detection.

10:53

Okay Those are my first. What do you got? All right, my first one. Okay How can they discover aliens?

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But they can't seem to find any evidence into the biden crime family

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Well, that's a broad one. I mean that kind of covers everything I know. Yeah All right.

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Well, okay. Here's my here's my second one. All right, how can that's your third one because you you're your first one

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We had the same That's cool How can they discover aliens but they can't seem to find the clinton's

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I mean epstein's killer That was on mine that was that was my next one was they they can't they can't figure out who killed epstein

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So this one was his clients right, right so Um, all right.

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Let's see if we have anyone in the in the chat that's given some jody's got one All right. What's that one?

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It right here it says How could they figure out aliens? There are aliens but can't figure out what a woman is

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Oh, that was that that was on my list. Okay But I didn't know That is

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Yeah Well, I okay I I I did okay We'll see if jody had this on her list because I did it two ways

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I said they can't figure out what a woman is but they also can't figure out what a man is So I I did both

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Okay, what's this next one that kt has is this Uh, oh no, she's saying I got

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I got to see the video and guess what kamala's car went Right by the spot at some point.

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Yeah. I mean the the supposed bomb was right out in the open. Yeah okay, so John is showing up late and saying is and is andrew, uh

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Will be okay. No i'm gonna die one day john. I don't hopefully not soon but uh you know and and if if the if the eric is that I think is is backstage he he was like When he found out

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I had double vision. He was like Get to the emergency room Because it could be double vision could actually be quite serious

13:09

Uh what they think the theory is right now that I have a fourth nerve palsy

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Which is a genetic disease. It's where the muscles I guess in my one eye is weaker and it probably has been all my life um

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One eye is weaker than the other so what ends up happening is for years What would be is

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I would tilt my head to the left because the double vision goes away that way And the doctor said if you go look at pictures, you'll probably see your head's always been tilted to the left.

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I'm like, yeah I I have been doing that in pictures. And so that's a sign that as a as a young child, uh,

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I probably compensated by just Tilting my head and at some point one of my eyes just gave out either the weak one or the stronger one it stopped overcompensating or just Couldn't you know, so so that's that's the cause of it

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They think that I just have to like my father wear these special prism glasses progressive glasses and that should solve it, but i'm still going to get a

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MRI and stress test all that will be done next week. I think tuesday so And then maybe i'll get an answer.

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All right Jody has another one up there That's a good one. Uh, they can't find aliens

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They can find the aliens, but they can't find any of the blm members to prosecute

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Okay, I didn't have I I i'm gonna give her that one because I didn't have the to prosecute.

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Um, But I did have they can find aliens, but they can't find any of the blm money

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Oh, that's true, too so so If I give joey, so let's see drew you be the judge if we give it to jody on the prosecute

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Can I get the extra point for that? Yeah, because because they're two separate things right you got one that's the riots where Government property was destroyed cities were destroyed lives were lost.

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But then you also have the money That people donated that was basically stolen from them

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Yeah Yeah We we don't we don't know where it went I mean it somehow went to uh line the pockets of The founders and they didn't report it on taxes either

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I wonder why they didn't do that Huh Anyway, uh, so that's that was my full list.

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Do you have any others on your list? Oh, I that That's that's your whole list. That was my whole list.

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Oh, i've i've got more. Okay, so they can find aliens but they they can't find uh figure out that The money we're giving to ukraine is just money laundering

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Ah, that's a good one All right, they can they can find aliens, but they can't discover crimes in cities

15:58

Okay Walking through stores stealing stuff. Well, well, yeah red cities

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Oh, oh look at d come on, I don't know if we could do this one but Ah d

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They can find aliens Huh, I thought about it, but I didn't put it.

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Yeah, they they can find aliens, but they can't find biden's brain I actually the the issue there and and so that I don't

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I don't I don't think it's good I think we did an episode on whether we should mock those in government that way but Um, he it's actually just a crime that I would say that it's it's elder abuse what they're doing to him.

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Yeah. Oh, yeah I would agree Yeah, uh, jody says they can find aliens, but they can't find out how uh, how much newsom

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Broke the constitution Similar to that Okay, so they can find aliens, but our government can't figure out that they're violating the constitution in the bill of rights

17:02

Oh, okay. Good good Okay. Well, oh you got one more one more

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They can find aliens, but they can't find out who leaked the dobbs decision That oh, why did

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I forget that one? There's only a handful of people like 40 40 possible people

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Yeah That's right where the where the other you know, the the coke in the white house

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I think there's like I think close to maybe like somewhere between 120 to 200 people

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That possibly could have because you got to remember the entrance that it was found originally remember It was found at an entrance and then they said oh it moved it suddenly moved to the library

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But then they realized the library had even fewer people that were in there So they suddenly moved downstairs to where all the workers are

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You know, but where it was originally supposedly found. Um, they uh, they had um

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You know, it's where you have to have secret service detail to get it. I thought it was the west wing It was found in the west wing.

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Yeah So you figure how many people were there on the weekends? Okay, so, um

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Jason says they they can find aliens But they can't find the inerrant truth of god's word that helped found this country

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So I had a couple others I thought of putting on the list Um, they can find aliens I didn't put this on the list.

18:26

So these don't count but they can find aliens, but andy stanley can't find the old testament

18:37

Um I had a and then once I started thinking that way I was like we would be here all night doing this because You can't find what bill biden's a doctor of Yeah All right.

18:48

So let's let's see if if jay so i'm gonna let's bring james park in um

18:54

James is so james. It is really dark in your car. So james is in his car folks

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Because he has a newborn at home And therefore any of us who have had newborns we know what that's like You never know.

19:08

It's really going to be hard to do a podcast With a baby that's could be screaming Yeah, that's the best place

19:15

I have no, I mean Just so you know you I don't want you to feel bad. But when covet first started

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And I I ended up, uh doing a recording on a podcast with ray comfort

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He was doing all of his podcasting from his car Because he realized he he that was where he in his house for in like go he went through marks mark spence

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Yeah, yeah, it got the boys in that car. Yeah, they would get the best acoustics in the car

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Yes I told ray I wanted him in his chicken coop And I am a living waters biggest fan by the way, because I always get the million dollar bills

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Boxes, this is so easy to evangelize. You just throw money on the ground Everyone picks it up.

20:04

It's not littering. Well, you shouldn't litter but They pick it up Yeah, well the the um

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I had gotten When I was out there, I don't know. I don't know how many packs of million dollar bill tracks that come in the hundreds and if folks if you want if you want you can go to livingwaters .com

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and see you know under the tracks and see what we're talking about but Uh, I stacked them in this box

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Which I was like tsa is definitely opening this box yeah,

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I just had What would have equivalated to you know? Like I forget how much

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I figured I tried to figure out if there were hundred dollar bills how much I had I think I I had like a would it would have been a million dollars worth or something

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But I just I had a bunch in there and they were probably like someone's trying to transport money

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Smuggle money. Yeah. Yeah So that's pick them up because it looks like real money

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Yeah, so so james I don't I don't even remember the conversation we had what started this

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I don't know if you do well I started out, you know when I was first born again, just No, no

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Our discussion our discussion what started the discussion that we had Yeah, I mean I basically

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I believe everything that benny him believes I agree with him on most of the stuff

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Yeah, okay what I was trying to get to is I I don't are just you and me our discussion on social media

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I didn't remember how that started. I just yeah. Well, I'm a I have a friend who's a friend of yours on my friends list uh, okay, he invited me to debate with you

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Yeah, and I it was it was based off some comment on on a post I just didn't remember which one sorry so for folks who

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Who don't don't know who you are. Why don't you you know, give a little bit about your background you already said you believe

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You agree with everything um That almost everything almost everything.

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I mean I grew up. I became a christian about eight years ago And i'm just gonna i'm gonna take the banner off so people can some people were asking for your name.

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It's james park Yes So there folks you have that And I grew up where like, you know, benny hinn kenneth copeland they were the prosperity gospel they just wanted your money

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That's how I grew up but I You know, I got the gifts of the spirit and I always had him when

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I was uh From when I was first born again and uh, by the way ray comfort sometimes he does

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Deliver his prayers every now and then if you watch his videos Just a side note every now and then he doesn't but he doesn't

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Yeah, I I know ray personally and I can tell you he does not believe in that he prayed against a woman's demons one time

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Very rare, of course but and he believes That some people are possessed by demons like the wizard from new zealand.

23:05

Yeah, I believe people are possessed by demons I have a friend of mine who believes that uh you know

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Kenneth copeland is possessed by a demon and I kind of believe that Well as I um just got to know like kenneth copeland and uh the

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Benny hinn got got to know them more. I realized I believe the exact same things as they do

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Personally or no. No, just knowing i'm from like social media. I Realized I believe the exact same things they do and i'm gonna defend them from now on.

23:41

I don't care who says it. Okay So so tell us a little bit about yourself first How how you know, uh, you started to explain how you came to know christ.

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So start start there Yes, so, um Concisely if that is

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I got out I got out of the marines And I was I was desperate for work

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Ended up getting a job on a farm The farmer was a outspoken christian.

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He'd always played Gospel music he'd take me to church go feed the homeless. He was always preaching bible truth

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And I even though I always thought I was a christian Just being in his presence made me realize that I was not a christian and um, so just like Admitting that i'm not a christian in my heart

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And then that's when I actually became born again and god changed my life Yeah, I believe there's a baptism of repentance

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And also baptism of the holy spirit All spiritual. I don't believe you have to have water baptism or anything like that And um

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Yes, i've just been i've been evangelizing Ever since i've been uh always

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The gifts of the holy spirit like deliverance and all of that always had them but I was with cessationists for my like first five years until I moved to miami and then um so once I got away from those church those churches

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I uh began to practice the gifts more So that's where i'm at right now

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Okay, so I want to I want to go back to sound just to make sure I heard right you said

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You started to believe in these because you experienced the gifts. Is that is that right?

25:43

Uh, yeah But I have a lot of bible verses to back it up though okay, but but What it what's so that was yeah, that was my experience.

25:55

That's your experience So then you're trusting your your your trust is your experience is it not

26:03

No, I um if I If there was no verses in the bible backing me up I would just say i'm schizophrenic and I need to just forget about that and just put the bible first So which which gifts is it that you say you experienced?

26:22

Um, so like healing Um casting out demons

26:28

Okay Speaking in tongues. I never did speak in tongues to Move to miami

26:36

Not that you speak. I believe there's two different types of tongues. There's that tongues and pentecostals actual languages earthly languages and then the heavenly language

26:46

Do you know any passage in the bible that talks about a heavenly language? Yeah, yeah,

26:52

I got a few um So you have uh first corinthians 14 14 an unknown tongue

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Okay, that that's not heavenly that's unknown that means And it's uh

27:09

It's a it's a tongue that you're that you don't know that you end up speaking and I know and it's not that verse

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Uh, because I don't think uh, first corinthians 14 14 says if I pray in a tongue My spirit prays

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But my mind is unfruitful so We'd have to see what what translation are you using?

27:30

Uh, I think that one i'm not sure actually I wonder if that's a translation issue.

27:37

Yeah, there's also a romans 8 26 the uh Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

27:49

So to me, that's what it's like. It's like a groaning. Hold on So if it's if it's a groaning that can't be uttered you you wouldn't be able to utter them, correct?

28:00

well Cannot be Interpreted by a human the human mind only by the spirit

28:08

But that's not what that passage says, right? That was what romans what 8 8 20? 8 26.

28:15

Yeah Um in the same way the spirit also helps our weakness

28:21

For we do not know how to pray as we should but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words that doesn't seem to indicate the same thing that Again maybe a translation issue

28:40

Um, but it's it this is saying a groaning too deep for words Now I can flip through some other translations that was new american standard

28:50

But there's also uh acts 2 4 it says They began to speak with other tongues

28:57

As the spirit gave them utterance so the spirit gave them this tongue And but but further down in the context, we know exactly which tongues they were verse 8 starts saying

29:09

And how is it that each of them? hear them in their own language to which we were born parthians and medes and Uh lamanites, yeah, those are the the earthly tongues.

29:22

Yes. I agree. I agree There's no other mention. There's no mention of anything other than the earthly tongues, but that's another gift too

29:28

Sometimes I hear that this never happened to me personally, but I heard of people

29:34

Never spoke spanish. They began speaking spanish because uh, a spanish Unbeliever was curious about the gospel and then

29:43

We hear about those they're just never documented So so late, you know, um

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Oh, and I just drew has just drew a blank on his name. I think it's john Harnam, I think is the name shoot,

29:57

I forget but uh late 18, uh late 1800s He was the the first with uh, when to popularize the gift of tongues

30:07

And he had a follower Several followers who believe they had the gift of languages And charles parham charles parham, that's it charles parham um and so Uh, and he had one of his his students who

30:25

Hmm agnes osmond. Yep. Agnes. Osmond had supposedly the gift of speaking chinese and so She got on a boat went over to china so that she could do missions work

30:37

Uh got there realized nobody knew what she was saying She was writing things because she said she had the gift of writing chinese, but nobody

30:46

Could read anything she did in fact, uh, she has a a hand written copy of what she had

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What she said was chinese And people were buying her story but I actually received that handwritten

31:04

A picture of that handwriting Uh, we gave it to my bride who actually was born writing and speaking chinese

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And she took one look at that and said that's chicken scratch So, yeah, she came back and said she is was actually speaking an angelic language

31:23

So it's it's kind of interesting that once she changed her story. Yeah, correct So so yeah, that's a false.

31:31

I agree. That's a false prophet. I agree. So so so far you haven't given a single passage that actually argues for a

31:40

Non -human language you have You've written more two more verses really quick okay, okay, so first corinthians 14 2 2 verses before that For he who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men, but the god for no one understands him

31:57

However in the spirit he speaks mysteries now also Remember daniel was the only one who could interpret the writing on the wall

32:09

Okay, so was was daniel interpreting a human language I don't think so.

32:17

I think I mean, I don't know because I think it was uh, angelic language. Yeah If you think about daniel and all of daniel's interpretation daniel interpreted dreams too

32:28

It didn't mean that they couldn't under you know nebuchadnezzar couldn't understand what was going on in his dream

32:34

But he needed it interpreted for him, right? And so it's not that someone can't see what's on the wall and and read what's on the wall

32:43

It's that they just can't understand what it means So those two aren't aren't exactly linked.

32:48

Okay, so let's let's go back to first corinthians 14 2 Because we need to address that one.

32:54

So let's look at the context. Is that a fair thing to do james? Yes Yes, please verse one pursue love

33:02

Yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy

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For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to god for no one understands but it but In his spirit, he speaks mysteries, but one who prophesies

33:23

Speaks to men for edification and exhortation and Consolidation so so let me ask a question

33:32

Is paul saying we shouldn't speak to god? We should speak to men and not god No Well, if we're going to take this literally the way you did then that's what that's saying

33:46

Well, so I believe that paul he was saying that we

33:55

We speak we're speaking we should not speak in tongues to Uh men but to god he's meaning the spiritual warfare okay, so let's you're

34:10

So what you're doing james is you're reading things in i'm all i'm doing is reading Right and looking at context.

34:17

So let me ask the question this way Is he is he trying to contrast two things prophecy and languages

34:29

Possibly yeah Yeah, because he's saying he's he's saying pursue love the the real thing is he's saying love is the more important than all of them right

34:38

Yes, he's saying pursue love which comes out of chapter 13 just before Actually starts in verse chapter 12

34:46

It's 12 13 14 and once and i'll say this for folks who are listening if you go to striving fraternity .org

34:52

Uh on our site. I do have a paper called. Um I think it's called understanding biblical tongues

35:00

But if you search for first corinthians 12 to 14, uh, it basically looks at those three chapters 12 13 14 in context

35:08

And just gives a high level overview And I would argue that much of what paul

35:14

Is condemning in those three chapters is the charismatic movement we see today because it's nothing nothing new under the sun the same things that we saw in Late 1800s

35:25

You had a bunch of people feeling they're more spiritual. They're saying they speak a language because someone else is speaking a language

35:31

So you have this spiritual pride and then all of a sudden someone's being just speaking gibberish

35:37

Well, can I give my take on it? Sure so I believe he is saying don't speak tongues as a sermon or in the church and but It's for spiritual warfare.

35:53

So meaning that Like when you're speaking mysteries to god only you and god

35:59

Can know And the angels and then that the devil won't even know I hit him. Where where do you see spiritual warfare sermons in here?

36:09

Well, it's not not for sermons at all, but it's for spiritual warfare Where do you see that in here at all?

36:17

When he says it's not not to speak to men, but to god. So when we pray to god

36:23

Most people when they are a lot of people when they pray to god they're they're asking to For to battle spiritual warfare, okay, so you're saying

36:33

I want to make sure I understand this you're saying that the speaking To god is the spiritual warfare

36:42

Sometimes yeah So we're I can't say all the time, but sometimes yes, so we're at war with god

36:48

Like when we're praying that's that's at war with god No Asking the holy spirit to do battle for us

36:58

Okay. So now there's nowhere in here that says that this is about Asking the holy spirit to do battle for us, correct?

37:06

No, okay, not the specific verse. No, okay, so You're you're you're but that's your interpretation of that.

37:14

Could that be influenced by your experience? Well, I do have the experience

37:20

I When even when other people when i'm doing deliverance other people's speaking tongues

37:26

I can interpret that tongue in the spirit And then it it's a specific message for their life completely specific to them

37:35

There's no way I would have known the things That are said and so If part of it is experience

37:42

I put the bible first Then experience then history as well all together

37:50

I Recognize all three of those Okay, james. Um, I I heard you say a minute ago when you speak in tongues and you're you're speaking to god

38:01

You're speaking to god and the angels and the devil doesn't understand what you're saying um

38:06

Is that kind of your take on that that when you speak in? Yes Devil can't understand you only god and the angels because it's a yes

38:14

Angelic language. Is that is that what i'm to understand? Well, the language changes on god's side

38:20

The language changes so that the the demons they try to learn it, but they never learn it Are those demons and the devil are they?

38:28

What are they angels They're fallen angels. Yes. Okay, so they they speak angel but after They were cast out of heaven

38:39

They they no longer have god's well We to learn the language. Where do you get that information from that information?

38:47

You have to have god's spirit to know the language. They have their own tongues Yes, demonic demonic tongue.

38:54

That's different. Yeah So so james i'm i'm hearing what you're saying, but the problem is none of that is found in scripture at all

39:02

But I I have I do have another question for you It says the holy spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues acts 19 no, the question is the question he's asking is you said that angels

39:16

That fell no longer speak angelic language Do you have a bible verse for that or is that something that you're trying to You're building a doctrine to save your your belief system well, they

39:33

They still speak their Demonic tongues information is what drew's asking.

39:38

Where do you get that information from? Well, I don't have any bible verses for that so you got me on that one

39:46

I do have another question for you james So because we've been spending a lot of time in first corinthians and then we've only mentioned acts a little bit

39:56

Um, do you know that first corinthians was written before the book of acts? No I was not aware.

40:04

I'm gonna have a chronological order Intercede and say drew

40:09

I like I I never thought about that. That's an excellent point which explains why

40:15

Paul had to do so much explaining By the to the corinthians because this has not been written about yet That's an excellent point so so In james when i'm getting that what andrew's picking up on is the book of act or the book of first corinthians

40:34

It speaks about tongues, right? But then once the book of acts come along comes along and it talks about the holy spirit falling on people and they spoke in other tongues

40:45

Luke in acts is clarifying at the beginning of acts what those tongues are that they are known languages

40:52

So if they were anything other than that, he would have said what they are that they were angelic languages or they were they were some other kind of uh, gibberish that that we can understand but luke specifically says

41:06

In acts 2 that they are known languages Yeah, I agree that pentecost was that it was known languages it says it straight out

41:17

I agree with that But I also I think this is a separate Different gift a different gift, but here's the thing right

41:26

I I believe you could tell me if i'm wrong you you want to follow the truth.

41:32

Would that be fair to say james? Yes Yes, definitely What becomes the ultimate authority for truth?

41:40

The word of god, okay, so If we see something in the word of god

41:47

Then that becomes the authority even over our experience, correct? Yes, okay good.

41:54

I'm glad you agree with that because I if I want to go back to the first corinthians 14 because You're this passage to it to if we stay consistent with the way you're interpreting verse 2

42:08

The rest of the passage then is indicating that god does not want us talking to him

42:16

Now is that does that fit with the rest of scripture that god would want us to talk to men and not god

42:26

Oh, so you mean, uh When paul was saying that It's not for men, but to god if if we're taking it the way you're taking it

42:34

I'm, just reading it, but you read into this that this is spiritual warfare

42:40

And so if we're going to say that this is spiritual warfare, then when he says When he's saying he's talking about love

42:48

Pursue love that's that's there's two commands here in verse one pursue love.

42:53

That's an imperative that's command and then desire earnestly and the the

42:59

Um definitive article to the to desire earnestly is spiritual Now the word gifts that actually isn't there in the greek so so there's two commands pursue love desire earnestly spiritual

43:14

And he says but especially that you may prophesy The verse that you bring up for for one who speaks in a tongue

43:23

Does not speak to men but to god For no one speaks For no one understands but in his spirit

43:31

He speaks mysteries But one who prophesies listens to men for edification and exhortation

43:37

Okay, but then look it says One who speaks in a tongue edifies who himself?

43:43

Himself. Yeah, so do you know any passage of the bible that that it says that we should edify self?

43:50

That that's a good thing well paul he says later

43:56

I wish everyone he spoke in tongues, but I'd rather you prophesy you're avoiding the question.

44:01

So i'll ask you Is there any passage in the bible that outside of this one

44:08

Where we see self edification as a good thing Well, I think paul says in 14 5 1st.

44:17

Corinthians 14 5 I would Like you to edify yourself Speak in tongues, but I would rather you prophesy to edify the church

44:27

Okay, so the church is is more important than self, but we're still important But the church is more important.

44:33

Okay Is there any uh, there's a third time i'm asking it. So is there any passage outside of this?

44:41

Where self edification is praised? Yeah, I mean you got love your neighbor as yourself so that assumes that assumes you love self

44:51

It's not saying you shouldn't yourself it is it's assuming that I don't think edifying yourself is necessarily selfish

44:59

And and yet it's condemned over and over again in scripture, that's a good Just good point, but I don't think he means

45:08

By edifying Himself, I don't think he means by being selfish I didn't say the word selfish.

45:15

I said self edification That's what yeah I think Sometimes we need when you're doing spiritual warfare

45:24

You need the energy and the strength to continue to pray and then Okay, you guys put your experience aside.

45:32

Sometimes you need self edification No, there's none that I can think of okay

45:40

Is the bible pretty clear that self -education self -edification is wrong? That that like pride would be wrong

45:50

I think pride is definitely wrong. Yes, okay Is self -edification pride?

45:57

I don't think so You don't think so lifting you got it yourself up You got to take care of yourself to take care of others.

46:05

That's that's not that's not edifying self taking care of Self is not edifying self

46:12

The reason i'm laboring this is because what we see in the text if I just read the text Is clear that paul is saying something that is contrary to the rest of scripture

46:24

And so therefore it's not to be taken as instruction as literal instruction, but as condemnation to wrong behavior

46:32

What they were doing was edifying themselves claiming they spoke a language that only god could speak that fits perfectly with everything he's saying because He's not going to tell people not to pray that's not biblical

46:46

He's not going to tell people to edify themselves because that's not biblical So if it's not biblical either the there's other passages of scripture.

46:54

There's a contradiction in scripture or The other option that we see here is that paul's condemning certain behavior that they were doing the very same behavior

47:05

We saw with charles farms, you know followers That we see today the same exact behavior

47:14

He's it's people saying look look at me. I'm I I'm speaking to god and only god can understand and yet If you're going to take that that way you have to take all of this that way therefore paul's condemning

47:26

Speaking to god. He says it's better to speak to men. That's that's nowhere seen in scripture that you should edify yourself

47:34

That's nowhere seen in scripture And when you're speaking in tongues is For yourself, like when you're praying for yourself, like please help me lord get through the day

47:43

You are helping yourself. That's that's speaking in a language. You understand well some sometimes in scripture

47:52

There are verses about edification like to edify your neighbor I have no problem with that.

47:59

That's not edifying self that's edifying others putting others before yourself. It's good to be edified

48:05

You know, you're not making them It's you're edifying people is

48:12

So you want to do anything to others that you would do yourself? I don't know. It's confusing.

48:18

Yeah Well, yeah, you make a great point though. I'll admit you make a great point Yeah, I mean

48:23

I I do I think it i'll tell you why james. I think it might be confusing for you Because I think scripture says one thing in your experience is saying a different right and and that's what's causing confusion

48:36

I don't think edification is bad That's what we disagree But i'm saying but what about self -edification?

48:43

I don't think self -education edification is bad. Okay, that's Where we differ self -edification would be the definition of pride

48:53

And you said that's bad I don't think so. Like uh today I heard somebody saying because someone uh told their boss the gospel

49:03

And this is a calvinist, okay, he told his his boss the gospel and he said

49:10

He even said to the point you're going to hell Okay, like ray comfort style. Okay and in a nice way, but he's

49:18

And then somebody said that you're To him you're being prideful. I said no, this is this is actually humility humility is

49:28

Saying that god's right and we're wrong Okay, but So so this we define pride differently.

49:35

I think we define that differently. Okay. Do you believe that pride is building up of self?

49:41

I I think pride is doing what you want to do Like sins only sinful stuff not just If you want to do what god wants to do that's not prideful well, okay

49:57

You're giving it a by example the definition of pride Would be to build self to build up self to put your agenda before anything else

50:09

That's that's what it would be Edify is the word to build up so this is to build up self

50:19

That's the definition of pride Yes, but praying in tongues is you're building up your god is building you up uh, yeah, but but Again, it the whole the reason i'm belaboring this james is so you can see

50:38

What paul is saying in this passage where you're trying to say that this is speaking of of spiritual warfare, which isn't mentioned um

50:47

And and speaking of spiritual warfare versus sermons neither of which are mentioned paul is using saying things

50:54

That cannot be taken the way you're taking them literally Because those very things are against everything else the bible teaches

51:03

The bible teaches us that pride or building up of self is condemned not not praised

51:12

So if paul is praising Self -edification pride

51:19

Then that can't be what he's actually saying Because that's against everything else of scripture

51:26

He he couldn't he wouldn't be saying that we we shouldn't pray to god but pray to men it's better to To pray to men than to pray to god.

51:34

I I got news for you It is much better for us throughout scripture. We see this it's much better to talk to god than it is to men

51:42

Spending time in prayer Is is a is a better thing than us talking to one another

51:49

And and if we take your interpretation that flips this upside down So it's it's more likely

51:57

That paul is condemning behavior And he's pointing out to them by your behavior.

52:04

You're edifying yourself Okay. Well, yeah, I think that meant

52:10

It's better to speak english to men or whatever, you know hebrew and greek

52:17

Language. No. Yeah speaking tongues of god only. Yeah Well, he says

52:23

I wish in verse five now I wish that you all spoke in languages But even more so that you would prophesy and greater is the one who prophesies than the one who speaks in languages

52:33

Unless there's an uh, he interprets so the church may receive edifying now

52:41

You're saying that this is that this gift of languages is for self and paul says it's for the church

52:48

And it must be interpreted All right now when you when you pray in languages

52:55

Do you have an interpreter there? Yes, I can interpret the angelic

53:01

You you're your own interpreter It sounds like gibberish.

53:07

It's I can interpret that you can interpret but you are your own interpreter well for the tongues because because paul says that the the proper way to do this is to have

53:21

Two people speak that same thing and have an interpreter Yeah, I mean

53:27

I do it i'll do it in front of the whole entire church And you have another person that can say the same thing

53:35

Yes, and then yeah sometimes When we have another interpreter, they'll they'll say the same thing or they'll say you have the the bible has two people speaking that same language

53:48

And then the third person is the interpreter not two interpreters Two people that have to have the ability to speak to say the same thing

53:57

That's what paul says when he gives the instruction to the church So when you're when you're alone and you're you're praying and in languages who does the interpreting?

54:09

Okay. So yeah when i'm alone no one Okay, so so you you're not fitting with it the the

54:17

Just Just me. I'm yeah, I am self -interpreting at that moment in time.

54:23

Yes. How does that how does that edify the church? It does it's completely

54:29

Self -edification as you say. Yeah All right, which which the bible would condemn? So let me let me go to the only passage and i'm amazed that you didn't bring this one up because it's the only passage

54:40

The only passage in all the bible that mentions an angelic language And it's first Corinthians 13 1

54:47

I missed it Yep wow, this is the only passage that talks about an angelic language and And what

54:55

I said, I what I believe happened is in corinth now keep in mind As you read through the book of first corinthians

55:03

Every single chapter. I mean every one of them Paul is condemning them for for bad behavior

55:09

Yes, and somehow chapters 12 13 and 14. He's just ending everything they're doing

55:16

Well, that's not likely. It's more likely that he's continuing in his condemnation of their behavior

55:22

And I think the behavior they were doing is very much what we see the behavior today When I was involved in the charismatic movement

55:28

What I discovered is that everybody had this pride of will you speak in languages? I got a word from the lord

55:34

Oh, you got a word from lord. I got a prophecy Everyone's trying to outdo each other in showing that they're more spiritual and That what you end up seeing is someone who claimed he spoke spanish

55:46

And then someone who was a spanish speaker said that's not spanish and he switched to it He well, he was speaking an angelic language

55:54

And the spanish speaker just didn't know it And that's what I think paul is condemning. Let me make that case from what paul

56:00

Hey andrew, I got I got to throw this comment up here from d. She says i'm dying here first corinthians 14

56:09

She she has been throwing it in the comments. Okay, so first first corinthians, uh, 14 22 says

56:16

Tongues are for a sign Not to those who believe but to the unbelievers, but prophecy is a sign uh to the unbeliever

56:27

Uh, not to the unbeliever, but to those who believe so basically the the gift of tongues

56:33

Was the purpose and we see this in acts chapter 2 Was for the unbelievers to realize that here's people that don't know my language and they're speaking my language

56:43

And you can write Yeah, and so the the verse d's throwing out here 14

56:48

First corinthians 14 22 if you just back up to 14 21 It tells you that this is a uh an actual language because it's quoting isaiah 28 11 and if you go look at that, it's it's god saying that he would send people who speak foreign tongues and so when you hear in Foreign tongues, it's always someone from a different region that speaks a different language

57:16

Well, let me just say first, um So the reason on the corinthians behavior, okay, it's not always due to lukewarmness

57:25

Sometimes the closer we get to god the more the devil attacks And as for for being for unbelievers

57:33

I agree with that. Sometimes we do get uh people who are They're trying to become christians, but they're not really christians yet and uh, we interpret a tongue for them and then

57:46

It's like a message for them of repentance and they need to stay closer to god that's a lot of the messages are they need to repent and Become believers so If I could just speak real quickly to the behavior of the corinthians

58:01

Um, it's it's not in the case of the corinthians It's not that the closer they were getting to god the more the devil was attacking

58:07

Because if you look through the book of corinthians, just read it Paul is condemning them

58:15

He's condemning sin even to the point where you get to chapter 15 and he's saying look i've already given you the gospel

58:21

But you need to be reminded again Because it's not that the devil's attacking. It's that they've rejected it.

58:27

I will say this about It's a negative thing about the charismatic movement when you embark on deliverance, you will

58:36

Have more temptations. You'll be attacked more by the devil, but the way to Counter that is by more prayer.

58:44

You need to do your early morning prayer first thing in the morning Or if you're going to do deliverance then you have to pray at least you know, you have to pray for a long time first thing in the morning

58:56

Well, yeah, but when you're praying in a gibberish then you're wasting time because you don't it's you don't understand anything you're saying

59:03

And that's exactly what paul's going to make I do So so here's a god and god understands it most importantly

59:11

Do I is it necessary for me to speak to god in another language?

59:16

Let me say this even if tongues was fake God still knows what we're thinking So god does understand.

59:24

Yeah, so why don't you pray at all? Um No, what's the purpose of prayer? I mean because do you think it's a god can we can inform god of something?

59:35

No, no because he knows everything the purpose of prayer is so that we would be dependent upon him

59:42

Yes, so that's me. That's me. I depend on him everything What's going on then?

59:47

We're not depending on him. Here's a great comment andrew Bible care and share fellowship. I have read church history and the greatest soul winners did not speak in tongues now we have a lot of Uh people commenting in the comments that do study church history and I know andrew has studied it and i've studied it myself

01:00:07

When we look through church history james What we see is we see very very few groups of people that claim to speak in tongues

01:00:17

But those people that do claim that they are actual heretics because of what they teach about christ

01:00:24

They teach falsely about christ. We see this with john calvin Uh battling against the libertines.

01:00:30

We see this with charles spurgeon and dealing with the I think it was the shakers and the quakers All throughout church history we also see it with benny hen who taught that the trinity was nine people

01:00:41

That's true So so we see this we've seen this throughout church history the very very few people that claimed to speak in tongues

01:00:51

They were all heretics because they taught falsely about christ now

01:00:58

I think When benny hen was talking about the nine trinity or whatever he was talking about All he was trying to say is that They're all separate and they all have their own body

01:01:10

They're the father son the holy spirit all have their own mind body and soul which

01:01:16

I don't know if that's true or not, but he Well, no Because scripture says

01:01:25

That the father is a spirit not a body and mind body and soul

01:01:32

Is is not a way of we are material and immaterial Everywhere where you see body or flesh it

01:01:39

It refers to the physical Everywhere where you see spirit it refers to immaterial and the soul can refer to either one

01:01:47

So it refers to the whole being the whole person So, uh, but he he ended up by the way when he when he taught that heresy

01:01:57

Uh, and and got exposed for it he then tried saying it was a joke and then had to apologize for that so um

01:02:05

But here's what scripture says in first corinthians 13 If I speak with the tongues with the languages of men and of angels

01:02:16

But do not have love i've become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal now

01:02:22

This is the only passage that talks about a angelic language And he is not teaching

01:02:30

That there are angelic languages. He's actually teaching the opposite You know why

01:02:36

I say that? because next verse Mm -hmm. So the first what we see in verse one is he's making a comparison between the the speaking of languages

01:02:47

And love and he's saying love is greater. If you don't have love then you're just making noise speaking gibberish

01:02:54

Yes, but look at verse two If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries

01:03:02

And all knowledge and even if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love i'm nothing

01:03:10

James if you knew all mysteries and had all knowledge, what would we call you?

01:03:17

That would be like god that would be god now is paul saying that you can be god no but He is that then exaggeration?

01:03:29

Is he exaggerating? uh, well

01:03:37

No, I don't think anyone can know all mysteries So he so wouldn't that be an exaggeration if if I know prophecy even more than prophecy

01:03:45

I know all knowledge I mean he goes to the extreme if I can know all the prophecy

01:03:52

I know all the mysteries. I have all knowledge so much so I can remove mountains But I don't have love doesn't that sound like he's being

01:04:00

You know, he's he's exaggerating to make a point That love is more important way more important than the way more important correct

01:04:08

And he's trying to take the prophecy and take it to the extreme Not just that you know that you could you could speak a prophecy

01:04:17

But that you know all mysteries and all knowledge and and have all faith Right, he's he's exaggerating to make that point that even if you could go to the uttermost extreme

01:04:28

But you don't have love you're nothing Would that be a fair interpretation of that? Yes, okay

01:04:35

That's the same thing. He's doing in verse one If I can speak of the languages of men even of angels

01:04:42

There's the same exaggeration right there He's not saying angelic language any more than he's saying that you could be that you can have all knowledge

01:04:51

He's exaggerating to emphasize if he can go far beyond Knowing every human language, even if you could speak the language of angels.

01:04:59

He's not saying there is one He's just saying That if you could But you don't have love

01:05:07

You see? Yeah. No. Yeah, I think that I did understand that. Um The exaggeration and everything.

01:05:15

I think that's why I left the verse out specifically in my list, but um Well, see you're you're

01:05:22

I agree with that I agree with that So throughout throughout this right your list didn't have any passage that talked about it being an angelic language

01:05:31

But doesn't it have to be an angelic language because it's the only way For the experience to fit right because you're not speaking a known human language.

01:05:42

Are you? No, okay, and and I don't i've never met anybody who does

01:05:48

I mean, there's lots of stories about people who do but they've never been verified I've never seen it verified

01:05:56

Oh, let me correct that one person. There was there was a video that I saw of a person

01:06:02

Who was speaking french? And they said they never knew french

01:06:09

They did know a dialect of french, however Well, so i'm you know, so they they they spoke, uh,

01:06:18

I think it was creole um And so they were from louisiana is what you're saying

01:06:23

Uh, haiti show no partiality to man Well, if one man can do it any man can do it yeah, well the thing is is that You're you're your defense of benny hinn

01:06:37

Right was because you experienced The these These gifts and therefore, you know, they're true

01:06:45

And you're going to defend benny hinn And yet when we look at scripture

01:06:51

And i'm not i'm not saying this to be like to be hard on you james, you know I'm, I actually saying this to help you when we went to scripture.

01:06:59

Okay, you couldn't you couldn't ground the argument that benny hinn makes in scripture

01:07:06

You you you may not realize you did it but you you kept going back to your experience You're reading things into the scripture that the scripture doesn't say

01:07:19

And to make it match your experience. So There's two ways That you can interpret scripture

01:07:26

You can either follow the rules of interpretation Or you can let your your personal experience interpret it and and I think you're doing the latter

01:07:35

Because you're you're looking at these passages and going well, this is speaking of spiritual warfare But it doesn't mention spiritual warfare or anything about spiritual warfare

01:07:44

Then you're taking it and you're saying well, this is You're you're looking at them and saying well, this is what this is

01:07:49

But that's not what it's saying right each time. We looked at every one of the passages and just reading context

01:07:57

Each one of them is not saying what you claimed it said Right.

01:08:02

Well, I mean paul he talks about spiritual warfare a lot in james and peter

01:08:08

But not the passages that you brought up, right? So that'd be like me saying You know You gave money to friends.

01:08:15

Therefore. You should give me money I mean just because you gave other people money that you know doesn't mean you need to give me money not at all

01:08:23

I think but so just because paul mentions spiritual warfare elsewhere doesn't mean everywhere.

01:08:28

He's speaking only of spiritual warfare I think deliverance and prophecy and all the gifts.

01:08:36

They're all huge part of jesus ministry Want why?

01:08:44

They're so that unsaved people would become saved one of the reasons but why

01:08:51

So that they they may believe Okay I I would disagree Okay, and the reason i'm going to disagree

01:09:00

Is because and and folks i'll give you the a link to go check you can go to strivingforeturning .org

01:09:07

slash miracles strivingforeternity .org Miracles and and james.

01:09:13

I want to give you some of the the information of the research i've done on miracles Because we only see three times in history where there seems to be a lot of miracle activity

01:09:24

Do you know what those three are Are you talking about the the old testament prophets and Jesus time and that book acts

01:09:36

Well, we we see in the time of moses the time of elisha and elisha and the time of jesus

01:09:43

Right, right So there's 265 miracles in the bible

01:09:49

Okay Okay, 104 of them are done by jesus So it's 39 of all the miracles in the bible are done by jesus for a very simple reason

01:09:58

Jesus is putting his deity on display Okay, yes, yes true so He does he does more than any other human.

01:10:08

Um more than anyone actually even of the of the father however When we look at them by humans, right now

01:10:16

Now why those three periods of time that we see by humans when mirror miracles are done by human beings

01:10:23

Okay, when we we're going to limit it Not just you know, like god or or whatnot just human beings

01:10:33

Okay, you're you have 80 miracles 80 some miracles out of those 265

01:10:39

So that's what we're dealing with 80 80 some miracles All right now

01:10:47

Um I'm trying i'm actually just trying to look so I can give you the actual number um, because i'm sure

01:10:54

I have it in the paper, but so Here's the thing When we we look at the miracles

01:11:03

Okay, they're here. I found it 81. So I wasn't too far off 81 miracles are performed by human beings in the entire bible

01:11:10

That's 31 of all the miracles and then john said jesus did even more miracles, but not enough

01:11:17

Correct So here's the thing. What is unique about the time of moses?

01:11:23

Elijah and jesus, do you know? Was um the people being freed from uh, egypt coming out of egypt

01:11:35

And uh, elijah Was just Wanting the the jezebel and ahab to stop stealing the prophets.

01:11:46

Let me help you with it When the time of moses, did we have any written scripture? Uh, no, so Moses is writing scripture saying thus says the lord right

01:12:00

He's claiming to speak for god and writing down god's How do you know that that's god's word because it's validated by miracles

01:12:11

So moses does miracles then you have Joshua writing and and elsewhere where you have people writing

01:12:20

Afterwards, but what did you see historically? After about 30 40 years the miracles fade away scripture is being written

01:12:29

And then there's a period of silence After a couple hundred years of silence

01:12:35

All of a sudden elisha and elijah come on the scene Claiming to be prophets speaking for god

01:12:41

And all of a sudden they're doing miraculous miracle this miraculous things these miraculous gifts and All of a sudden within 30 40 years that fades away

01:12:53

But what can what happened the new writing of scripture and then you have all the prophets Then you have 400 years of silence

01:13:01

And jesus comes on the scene. What do you see? Lots of miracles done by not only him but also the disciples and then after 30 40 years those miracles

01:13:11

Fade away the gift of miracles fade away And what happens you have the writing of scripture all three times are with the writing of scripture that's exactly what hebrews 2 says

01:13:21

Where it says this and starting in verse 1 for this reason We must pay Much closer attention to what we have heard

01:13:30

So that we do not drift away from it for the word spoken through the angels proved

01:13:38

Unauthorable and every transgression and disobedient received just a just penalty

01:13:44

How will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? after it

01:13:51

Was at the first spoken through the lord It was confirmed to us by those who heard

01:14:01

God also testifying with them Both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and gifts of the holy spirit

01:14:12

According to his own will so very clearly he's saying that the the purpose of the gifts

01:14:17

These signs and wonders these miraculous gifts is to vindicate or as it says here confirm

01:14:25

The word the spoken word of god that was then written down Okay. Well you have times like in judges samson

01:14:33

He asked for the holy spirit unlike the apostles he actually asked for it. So maybe now

01:14:40

We do have to ask for it more. Okay, so you think we should ask for it more? So you think we should see a lot of miracles then?

01:14:48

Yeah, I mean jesus said seek And you'll find Okay, the lord without you're seeking the lord with all your heart -minded soul.

01:14:56

Well, that's that's not asking for miracles So so let's let's do an experiment Let's remove all of the miracles done by human beings over the 4 000 years of biblical history that we have and Let's take out the times where there's new writing of scripture

01:15:14

And let's see how how many miracles are are we left with We're left with eight miracles in 4 000 years

01:15:23

That doesn't sound like something that's common. Does it? The bible says show no partiality to man that means no man is greater than any other man

01:15:34

Okay, james if I may I think that's important. I think that's important You mean avoiding avoiding the the answer to answering the question is important one man can do it in 4 000 years

01:15:44

We could do it today About partiality not showing partiality that's in terms of salvation that god shows no partiality to your status where you're from Your bloodline pedigree anything like that that has nothing to do with with these these spiritual gifts

01:16:02

That that's a salvific Verse so you can walk on water james

01:16:10

Can I walk on water? Why can't you walk on water peter walked on water? Yeah, I mean

01:16:15

I believe Human being walk on water. I mean many people have tried that when god gives an anointing for everything

01:16:22

There's an anointing of preaching anointing and teaching But here's the thing of being an evangelist

01:16:29

Here's the thing you keep giving us talking points Not scripture. We keep giving you scripture and the scriptures you have given now

01:16:37

I have Each let me finish each of the passages you've given have been out of context

01:16:44

If it's out of context i'll quote or i'll paraphrase Uh john calvin if you take god's word out of context, you no longer have god's word you have man's word

01:16:56

Once you take it out of context, you no longer have the word of god You don't have you're giving it a new meaning and you you've done that over and over again

01:17:03

You have romans 2 11 there for there's no partiality with god colossians 3

01:17:08

Hold on 25 hold on romans. What? 211 Okay, so you're saying that this so you're saying that this in its context is going to teach us

01:17:19

That if one person can do something we all can do it. Is that what you're saying? Yes, no one is special in the eyes of the lord, okay

01:17:28

That's okay. So you're saying that the apostles are not better than us Oh, but it's not okay, but that's not the see you have a category error here.

01:17:36

We're not talking about better We're talking about ability two different categories

01:17:43

You're saying if one person has the ability to do something every other human being has the ability to do something

01:17:50

Yes So if one person ever could do a miracle a gift have a miraculous gift

01:17:58

Then every one of us must be able to have that correct. Well, I believe If god permitted it is possible to walk on water.

01:18:05

I've never done it But I jesus said blessed is he who sees with or believes without seeing

01:18:13

Okay. Okay. Here's the thing and and Folks I want I want you to see what keeps happening

01:18:21

And those who are regular to the show you've seen this countless times um

01:18:27

But every time I ask a question It's not being answered it's being we'll jump over here.

01:18:34

We'll we'll jump somewhere else or we're going to quote a verse My answer is yes. Yes, I believe that that means that we

01:18:43

Can do anything that other people have done. Yes, I do believe that so so then therefore then the passage you gave

01:18:50

Romans 2 11 is not dealing with salvation, correct? It's dealing with gift giftedness and ability

01:18:58

I believe Well, I have to look at the which are you talking about the romans the romans 2 2 11 that you mentioned for there is no partiality with god.

01:19:07

That's you're you're saying that's not dealing with salvation That's dealing with spiritual gifts and abilities well,

01:19:14

I mean according to Many other verses I believe that but let's no no, I mean like I have to look at the context.

01:19:21

I look at Context and the context right the verse right after that says for we have all sinned without the law and perish

01:19:29

Without the law and those who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law right, so There who's who is it?

01:19:38

That's under the law jewish people or gentiles The jewish people jewish people and then he continues down to verse 14 for when the gentiles

01:19:48

Now who's that speaking of? Is that speaking of people or not the non -jews?

01:19:55

Yes. Yeah gentiles and so Just before that verse 10, but glory and honor and peace be to everyone who does good both to the jew

01:20:05

First and also the gentile or to the greek. Sorry Is that the jews and the gentiles

01:20:11

Yes. Okay. So the verse before it and the verses after it are speaking of what jews and gentiles

01:20:19

Yes. Yes could that be I mean, this may be a radical thought but could verse 11, which is sandwiched between The passages before it in verse 9 referring to jews and gentiles verse 10 jews and gentiles versus 12 to 14 jews and gentiles could it be that the partiality is that Everyone gets saved the same way both jews and gentiles that there's nothing special about jews

01:20:45

Yes, yes, I agree with that too so So the only thing special about jews

01:20:53

Yeshua, yes remove this this verse that you used because that no longer fits with the context you gave it

01:21:00

Right, so you can't use this one to make the claim that That because they could do miracles you could do miracles that that's not what that's teaching

01:21:09

It's teaching that jews and gentiles all get saved the same way right Mm -hmm

01:21:17

Okay, so then we and I we could do this all night We can look at every because we've looked at every single passage that you've given and all i've done is read context

01:21:27

And every passage does not teach what you claim it teaches Yeah, andrew

01:21:33

I I just want to bring up something and I got this from uh from jim osman Uh, because he teaches this right at the beginning of his hebrews.

01:21:41

Uh sermons and it's Who does miracles in scripture right specifically in the new testament now?

01:21:49

You've got All of the stats and numbers throughout the entire bible and I encourage everyone to go get that because it's mind -blowing

01:21:59

But but let's just look at uh two people two

01:22:05

Two sections. Okay, you have jesus and then you have the apostles All right, so so you can start and I have these written in my bible next to the verses

01:22:15

Um so that it's and they're highlighted so it's like a little daisy chain that follows one after another So we see jesus you can go

01:22:22

Acts 2 verse 22 and then look at john chapter 3 verse 2

01:22:28

John chapter 5 verse 36 john chapter 10 Versus 25 and 38 john chapter 14 verse 11

01:22:36

And then for the apostles you can look at Acts chapter 2 verse 43 acts chapter 5 verse 12 acts chapter 14 verse 3 acts chapter 15 verse 12 acts chapter 19 verse 11 and second corinthians 12

01:22:52

And what you're going to notice is this pattern that god was doing signs and wonders through jesus and then through the apostles

01:23:04

And there are only two instances In the new testament of people who were not apostles doing signs, but they were people who were directly connected to the apostles

01:23:17

So we don't we don't see just this outbreak of a whole bunch of people Performing all these signs wonders miracles and doing all the all of these things

01:23:26

We see it distinctly with two groups of people jesus and the apostles Yeah, and and the thing is

01:23:37

So we've we've gone through the passages that you brought up right Right And the reason

01:23:44

I i'm I know we want to talk about benny hinn, right? but the thing is is

01:23:50

Benny hinn has led you astray james Because he's led you

01:23:57

To believe the bible says something the bible doesn't say You're having to in each one of these passages read something into the bible

01:24:08

And and we're just looking at context and realizing the bible is not teaching what what you're saying it teaches that should concern you james

01:24:16

It's because you want to follow truth, right? Yes, I do and where are we going to get the truth from Word of god and is it going to be we read the word of god in context or when we add context to it well,

01:24:33

I have other verses that Say that the apostles are not any more

01:24:40

Aptly to receive the gifts than than people today All right Well, we'll look at a couple more

01:24:48

Okay, so you have uh and and and i'm gonna give you a couple more and then we

01:24:54

I do want to bring pedro and see if he's got questions and I know eric's still backstage but first corinthians first corinthians 3 5 when they talk about um

01:25:06

Let me just make sure that's the right verse What then is apollos? And what is paul?

01:25:13

Yeah, they're saying they are nothing. It's all about jesus christ. Anyway Oh, that's so they're nothing.

01:25:19

So okay So it's not teaching that we're all the same And Remember when uh in the book of acts when they went to go worship

01:25:30

Well, hold on. Hold on. Let's deal like you keep doing this. Sure So this passage is not teaching that we're all the same it's teaching that there's that we're not better than the lord

01:25:40

Right. Yeah. Okay. So so this doesn't teach what you claim to talk And when they went to go worship barnabas and paul, they said hey, we're just men.

01:25:51

That's x50 again So regular men, why were they why why did it say that what were they doing? In x50 because they um

01:26:00

They did some kind of miracle and then uh, they went to go worship and said no we went to worship them as god

01:26:06

You don't want glory. We don't glory for us. The miracles are supposed to bring glory to god not to us

01:26:11

We do the same thing. So then that passage is teaching that they're men. They're not god. They're not worthy of worship, correct?

01:26:18

Right, so that's not teaching that we could do miracles because they did miracles that's teaching that they're not god and don't deserve worship

01:26:26

So so I mean how many passages do we have to go through before you start to see that You keep taking them out of context

01:26:34

I mean one after another after another is it starting to concern you at all? That that's happening

01:26:41

That you can't be honest with scripture. I don't I don't and i'm not saying that to say That you're trying to be dishonest.

01:26:47

I think you've been deceived By deceivers, I mean look let me ask this question has benny hinn promised people blessings and healings

01:26:58

Yes And have they come true? Every time I don't I don't follow him that closely.

01:27:04

I just The stuff he believes in general. Okay, has there

01:27:10

I agree the same stuff. Has there been any instance? that he

01:27:15

Claimed someone could be he would be healed Or claimed a blessing promised a blessing

01:27:22

And it didn't come true So a seed you give him money

01:27:28

You will you will become rich you will get money and now now

01:27:34

If we're on a different subject my beliefs are Somewhat different.

01:27:39

I don't necessarily believe the prosperity gospel. Well, wait, you said you believe you came in here saying you believe everything

01:27:45

And that's almost everything according to this this subject because I believe god will

01:27:57

He does bless people when we give but only if that's where god wants us to be but god will

01:28:05

God will make your life miserable if you're not where he wants you to be But yet this is where you're getting all this teaching from is guys like this

01:28:13

Who who are charlatans and frauds They've made promises to people that they would be healed and become wealthy their bills would be taken care of well for benny hen

01:28:24

This actually happened to him. He began to give to anointed churches He practiced the gifts and then he became blessed because that's where god wanted.

01:28:32

That's where god was charlatan Who takes from people? He he's yeah, he's not this is not god's blessing

01:28:40

Because he's taught false doctrine didn't he also very into money too It is it wasn't his wife's father like some kind of owner of a christian public christian publication or something like that I don't know

01:28:53

Well, I know like kenneth copeland. He's he got rich off of oil Not just his people giving

01:29:02

So, I mean, you know, you know, it's amazing when I went to kenneth copeland's believers conference is

01:29:07

I heard jesse duplantis Uh creflo dollar Another guy whose name

01:29:14

I can't remember all talk About going to doctors to get healed Yeah If we're going to take your argument god doesn't show preference when when people's healed they could heal everybody

01:29:31

Immediately. I mean jesus healed entire towns. It says Everybody whether they believed or not

01:29:38

So you should be able to do that you should be able to empty every hospital that is in your neighborhood

01:29:45

Unless of course you you don't love your neighbor Well, first of all the security won't let us in Security won't let you in because they don't believe they don't believe in god.

01:29:56

You can't go in a hospital I I go in hospitals all the time No one stops me

01:30:03

You walk right in I mean if you if you had the ability to heal

01:30:10

The way that jesus and the disciples had the ability to heal Then you should be able to walk in a hospital and empty it

01:30:18

Go to saint jude's children's hospital And empty that place You know why nobody does that did jesus do that?

01:30:27

Yeah It's it scripture says he he held he healed entire towns Everybody even people that didn't believe there were 10 lepers only one believed the other nine don't believe but they were no the lepers they came

01:30:42

Only one came back. It doesn't mean they didn't believe though Why didn't they come back because maybe

01:30:51

I don't know they took jesus said uh, what The whole point of what jesus asking is why he said they were great.

01:30:58

They were ungrateful or something like that. Yeah Yeah, jesus is questioning that he's the only one to come back he's making the point that they're not believing that the others weren't believing

01:31:08

You know why the fake healers say that it's about someone's belief and not their belief

01:31:15

Because then they can continue with the charade Then they can say oh look It's you that has the problem

01:31:23

No, not necessarily so, uh, I mean some yeah, i'm sure doing that but Uh, it seems that kofi knows knows these guys jerry saval was the other guy believe me if uh, you don't believe god's gonna heal you sometimes god just Let me speak to some of benny hens, uh

01:31:46

We'll call them crusades or gatherings things like that. Um Do you believe that benny hens screens people who come to his stage?

01:31:58

I don't how I know are you asking someone else right? No i'm i'm asking Do you believe do you but I have a comment on that though if if my pastor told me to fake something

01:32:11

I would disown them But Yeah, but that's not what i'm asking.

01:32:17

I don't believe people are faking it I don't believe So you don't you don't believe that people are faking it you believe that those people

01:32:25

Are are really are really sick and impaired that are going up to the stage To get healed by benny hen.

01:32:31

Yeah Yeah, because do you believe all the people that are in wheelchairs That they came in there on wheelchairs or could they have walked in With crushing.

01:32:42

I don't think one person would fake that because they feel too guilty I mean if you don't have the holy spirit you have no reason to feel guilty but but the reason i'm asking this is because If you've listened to this show, you've probably listened to justin peters a lot as well and justin has spoken on this

01:33:00

Numerous times Where there's a backstage there's a curtain that separates the people who are in the audience

01:33:07

From the really sick people on the hospital beds and who have cancer And who are sitting backstage who never get seen by benny hen and never get healed

01:33:18

And so so and let me say this is I went to church with a guy who his job In one of these churches was to do the screening

01:33:27

He would have someone come in that would use a cane And they would say hey, let us help you they'd have a wheelchair brought to him

01:33:34

They'd sit him in the wheelchair when they brought him up on stage. They'd say see he can walk Well, he would walk his way in He could walk before But everyone says see it's a miracle

01:33:45

And he gets caught up in it. But my the guy that I went to church with it was his job To not only do that to put people that could walk and he could tell who could walk

01:33:55

Okay, without the without the cane they just had it for for stabilization They'd put them in a in a wheelchair and everyone thinks it's a miracle

01:34:04

His other job was to ask details of people and he'd gather information and then give it to the pastor

01:34:10

So when the pastor would say that there's someone here that has this It isn't because it was some miraculous thing.

01:34:18

It's because he did his job by doing by talking to people as they came in Jotting things down and running it up to the pastor.

01:34:26

Yeah, we see that with other people too Sometimes god tells us as a word of knowledge.

01:34:33

No, it's not a word of knowledge. He asked them he's not Well, I mean like that the people that benny han did not pray for Maybe god was telling benny han that you can't i'm not gonna heal them

01:34:46

I'm, not gonna heal him now because notice what you're doing a different thing for them James, you keep making excuses

01:34:52

For both him and his doctrine that is not out of the bible He's a false prophet if he if he's a false prophet just once Then he's a false prophet

01:35:04

Unless you're remembering that god could be in error I mean if you remember jesus asked many times the people do you have faith?

01:35:11

Do you believe has nothing to do with what deuteronomy says about false false prophets? Because in other words i'm not gonna heal you if you don't believe when someone says thus says the lord

01:35:23

Are you saying that god could be wrong that god could get something wrong? Would I let me give you for instance when all of these faith healers prophets claimed that Donald trump would be re -elected in this next term

01:35:39

Every single one of them prophesied that said thus says the lord they were all wrong

01:35:45

Does that make them false prophets or is god the one that was false? They would be false prophets.

01:35:52

I have a have a Unique opinion on that though well James Do you believe that it's god's will to heal people?

01:36:02

Yes, but sometimes it's god's will that He doesn't heal us till he gets us where he wants us to be

01:36:10

Okay, like in a certain church to be healed and then he'll heal us after but but benny

01:36:16

Isn't doesn't benny hen teach god wants you to be healed therefore come receive your healing

01:36:22

And people show up in faith Thinking that they're going to be healed God wants you to be healed, but sometimes it's after but that's the obedience.

01:36:32

That's not what benny teaches Is Well, I think that's what's happening the healing is now god wants you to be healed therefore come up front and receive your healing

01:36:43

I mean, he may not understand it himself but that's why god doesn't heal some people because That's not the gift of healing

01:36:54

The gift of healing the person has the gift They can heal

01:37:00

I believe there's always some form of faith and even repentance to everyone that jesus healed okay, so But that's that's not yeah, that's not what we see in scripture.

01:37:12

But does would paul have the gift of healing? Yes, so he can heal anybody he wanted

01:37:20

No, he couldn't even heal himself That's right. Did he not heal himself, but he had a messenger he had in philippians chapter two

01:37:28

He's got someone that was very close to him. That was near death near death And he couldn't heal him

01:37:37

So but so god why why does god show preference? according to you Because he has because he wants us to bring

01:37:47

Bring us closer to him. Okay, so god got it. God's first right first is salvation number one like you guys say salvation is number one

01:37:57

Then healing and deliverance if we take your interpretation of the bible then god has to heal him because otherwise he's showing preference

01:38:06

For the one in philippians, but yeah, if if i am i'd have to look it up what else

01:38:15

Right, that's that's you're saying that's preference that was philippians right now Uh philippians 2 and you can see where it talks about.

01:38:23

Uh, then Verse 25 Okay And all right, right.

01:38:30

Yeah, the partiality preference stuff. Yeah See if you're if you're if you're if you're going to be consistent with that then this man has to be healed

01:38:38

If aphroditus isn't isn't healed Then god's showing preference by your argument.

01:38:44

Yeah, and i'm saying that okay. Yeah, right. Yeah to the My logical conclusion, correct, correct

01:38:52

And i'm trying to point that out so you could see That there's a problem in in your logic in your thinking

01:38:58

So that you'll come to scripture and let that be the final authority. Well I believe god

01:39:05

Does want to heal everyone but everyone has a different purpose. So All right, whether he wants us to be healed in heaven

01:39:12

Or he wants us to go somewhere else to be healed or he wants us to Do something take the first step to show a little faithfulness first and then

01:39:24

It'll give us the next step. Okay, so staying in philippians you're saying we have to show faithfulness first So yes, there's gods

01:39:36

Oop he must have just dropped his phone might have died. Oh Probably died his phone probably died.

01:39:42

I did want to bring pedro in so now would be a good time Then let me bring pedro in and see what questions hit pedro.

01:39:47

Welcome to apologetics live Hey guys, how you doing? Better than I deserve Hey, love the show.

01:39:55

Thank you for all you guys do. I'm a longtime listener. Um i'm in sale, so I I listen to all your podcasts and um, it's been so edifying for me, but I um,

01:40:06

I grew up in the catholic church. So I I became I started listening to matt mack flake about five years ago that's kind of where I heard about you and I kind of Started tying it all in together and well, my my condolences that you listen to Right.

01:40:21

I love the guy man. He's he's awesome. He's uh yeah, he I just love his tact and um

01:40:29

Anyway, he he it's so funny. Somebody called him the other day And he goes I know how you are

01:40:34

I'm, not gonna i'm not even gonna get ready to turn my turn signal on right now because you know matt's real quirky about little sounds

01:40:40

What's that noise hey, what's that you got some wind there, you know, so Sometimes it makes me cringe. I'm like, oh my god, but yeah, he's right in person

01:40:49

What's that try that in person with matt I can imagine I can imagine but but I was just gonna say yeah,

01:40:57

I grew up in the catholic church. So, um, You know, I I came out of the catholic church

01:41:02

Went to catholic high school catholic college, and then I started getting into the prosperity churches and You know,

01:41:08

I just started looking at the bible differently and I was like, you know what there's something So I I wound up in I wound up in prosperity churches and I and I and I wound up in these tongue -speaking churches

01:41:19

And and it always made me feel so uncomfortable, right? So I I never really felt my wife grew up in in that type of church as well.

01:41:26

And um I just never really felt comfortable with the whole thing And I started reading the scriptures and I read some of the scriptures about edifying yourself and i'm thinking okay

01:41:36

Well, maybe there's a thing and then there's a scripture about the groanings and we don't know what we're saying The utterances and things like that that paul's talking about and um

01:41:45

Did he bring that scripture up by the way about the utterances and and we don't know what we're saying? Yes, um, but our spirit is okay um

01:41:53

So anyway, he uh, so so I was reading that so i'm like that makes sense but but I just like I said,

01:41:58

I never felt comfortable with it and and I just um I thank god for people like matt slake and you guys that are like when

01:42:05

I started really studying the scriptures It really opened my eyes to wait a minute. There's a reason

01:42:11

I feel comfortable with it because It's not it's not it's not the way you're supposed to praise god. Um, so anyway,

01:42:17

I have an autistic son He's he's pretty he's pretty autistic. I mean, he's pretty low level. He's 24 years old

01:42:24

He exhibits, you know aggressive behaviors and things like that. We just try to Keep him calm. He lives with us.

01:42:29

We have full guardianship of him But you know, I took him when he was about probably about five years six years ago

01:42:35

I took him to this church that was going to prosperity church and um, And there was a faith healer came in from from out

01:42:42

You know, he came in from another country and had this, you know, this aura and everyone's like oh he's a faith healer He's coming today

01:42:48

So i'm like great. We're gonna take my son, you know, i'm all excited I'm like we're gonna take my son and get him prayed for So when

01:42:54

I when I walk my son in I They bring him into this back room, right? I brought him in after church because my son won't sit through the service

01:43:01

And and when the guy saw my son and he kind of saw his condition he his eyes just got you could tell I I could just tell like He was like whoa.

01:43:09

This is like what what did you know? They want me to pray for this this kid that what do they were they expecting here, you know, so and again

01:43:16

Later on as i'm studying the reform doctrines studying scriptures. I started seeing like That look on his face was like I can't do nothing for him, you know,

01:43:26

I'm saying like all that's coming to the surface now how um

01:43:32

What a false uh, what false claims are putting out there about this I I just wanted to share that because You know

01:43:39

I was in it and I came out of it by learning the scriptures and I believe that god If he puts you in it, you know, he he kind of and if you're looking for truth

01:43:48

He's gonna he's gonna take you out of that if you're really seeking truth, right looking for truth Um, he's gonna bring you out of those those churches

01:43:55

So I just just keep praying for this man that you know, he's seeking truth and and that he'll uh, you know

01:44:01

He'll he'll he'll come out of that yeah, I mean one of the things that You know,

01:44:06

I I came out of it as well And I mentioned earlier the paper that I have on at striving fraternity on first corinthians 12 13 14

01:44:16

Um, i'm just pedro i'm just going to mute you for a moment There we go. There's something in the background that was just making a lot of noise but you can unmute yourself after I say this so you can start talking again, but I I my paper that that's on my website about understanding biblical tongues

01:44:34

You know an overview it's basically an overview of first corinthians 12 13 14. The reason I I wrote that and came to that was

01:44:41

I I was Coming from a jewish background. I didn't understand christianity I was saved for two years just reading a bible

01:44:48

Then I went to college everyone in college was most of the people were word of faith or charismatic They I figured they know better than I am what the bible teaches.

01:44:57

So I I was just trusting them and Four years of college and and having that that teaching.

01:45:04

Uh, I was believing that I I believed I was speaking in tongues Uh, what

01:45:09

I was actually doing was uh, just a gibberish It I ended up um

01:45:16

When I I was at a bible study and two guys were at a table I wasn't even involved in their conversation.

01:45:22

I was just at the other end of the table having a cup of coffee and One guy says to the other guy.

01:45:28

Well, not all of us believe that tongues continued to today and I went wait what? Never heard that before So I went home that night and read first corinthians 12 13 and 14 in one sitting asking the question is paul teaching

01:45:43

Everything I was taught about tongues And reading it in context. I walked away and realized paul was condemning the very behavior

01:45:51

We see in the charismatic movement that probably same behavior that existed in the first century

01:45:57

And so what what I quickly realized is As I said paul's condemning behavior through the whole book of first corinthians

01:46:06

It was more fitting that he's condemning behavior with with spiritual gifts as well And I realized that all the things that I was talking with with james about was there they were

01:46:18

Condemning the very things they are same arguments being made today the same arguments. I believe were being made in corinth

01:46:24

And paul was condemning it back then And and that's what we end up seeing and that's why it breaks my heart with a guy like james who

01:46:34

Came from a good cessationist position And got sucked in because of his experience and and I highlight that because folks listen

01:46:43

Every time you talk to someone like james Their ultimate authority is always their experience

01:46:50

They know it's true because of what they experienced And and you saw how many passages he took out of context he added to the to the scriptures

01:47:02

He what we call is a jaded instead of exegete what are those two words means is a jeet means to put into And exegete is to take out of he put into put a meaning into the bible and i'm taking a meaning out of the bible

01:47:19

And so that's what we end up seeing and and that I mean how many times did I have to say to him drew?

01:47:25

This should concern you That you're taking these passages out of out of context that that the scriptures are not teaching

01:47:32

I mean every single verse There wasn't a single verse that he got right and yet Several times he had to admit that what i'm saying the bible's saying is exactly what it's saying because all i'm doing is reading the context

01:47:48

Right and yet he doesn't give up the position why because it's his experience well, yeah, it's it's a lot of feeling base and I I I'm me and my wife right now, we're kind of challenged because he's still that's a challenge, you know when you're

01:48:05

Married to someone that that has she's coming out of it because the more i'm the more i'm showing her scripture

01:48:11

Um, and i'm like that doesn't mean that or this doesn't mean that and she'll like what you know Because it's what we it's what you've been taught and again, you don't study

01:48:19

This is what they just they throw at you and and you've been taught that so Now i'm kind of slow rolling teaching her because some of the things she just doesn't and i'm just you know

01:48:28

It's it's kind of difficult when it's your wife and i'm just like what well doesn't that doesn't mean that I know Pedro I believe that before i'm going to give you a resource that you'll want to get a hold of okay it's not available yet, but Uh coming next month will be available a film a documentary called cessationist

01:48:48

And you'll want to get that and just I haven't even seen it yet, but you'll want to get it and just say to her.

01:48:55

Hey Let's watch this together That way someone else is telling her not you so you don't have to be the bad guy

01:49:03

Right, exactly and always blame it on andrew. Anyway, yeah, you can blame it But you know i'll tell you seriously pedro

01:49:08

I'll tell you what you could do you you can go to striving fraternity check it get the phone number call me Okay, or email me and if you want i'll be happy to To sit down over a phone and talk with you and your wife and and answer any any questions from from the scriptures with this to it

01:49:26

Because it's Our i'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off our our challenge our son is is extremely challenging in our life

01:49:34

He's he's really um, yeah autism. It's it's not it's not easy. It's not easy I no not at all.

01:49:39

And and I I have a lot of guilt even with Not being able to go to church functions and I see the people they're like, oh, where were you?

01:49:47

I'm like, man, I I can come you know it and I want to be more involved and i'm thinking so so many people don't understand that so I had

01:49:54

We had when I was pastoring my first pastorate we had a child that was she was 15 or 16

01:50:03

Very very autistic um and and the problem the problem was in her in their case,

01:50:09

I mean part of the problem was is The parents because she was autistic they never

01:50:15

Disciplined her or anything. They let her always have her way And then when she became

01:50:21

A teenager and she's larger than her mother She's almost as big as her father

01:50:27

And she's violent. I mean the mother my son's in the same. Yeah, my son's in the same boat.

01:50:33

He's bigger than me Yeah, it makes it super hard Because they they don't

01:50:41

They all look the same. Yeah, it's challenging but but sometimes I feel like Yep, you're breaking up I'm, sorry about that.

01:50:51

My wife's calling me. Sorry about that me and my wife um, you know, we'll have to take turns going to church because it's like well

01:50:57

It's hard to get babysitters on sunday and things like that. So There's a lot well

01:51:03

Let me give you it. Um And hopefully your church will do this but one of the things that I did uh was

01:51:11

I challenged our church to say look We have a person Who has a need?

01:51:18

Because they used to do like you did they would take turns coming to church And and I told our congregation we have a responsibility to help this family sunday is the one day

01:51:27

That they should get a break And be able to worship god and we should take turns

01:51:35

To care for this child. Was that difficult for everyone? Yeah, but it actually gave everyone a greater appreciation for what this mother and father had to go through every day.

01:51:42

Yeah Right and and and the dang the dangerous the way where it's dangerous in people with with Especially newer christians and and they're coming they're saying oh we can heal you, you know

01:51:52

And then you go take your son or whoever you take and they were praying over this three -year -old kid who had cancer

01:51:58

And and i'm in holding them up on stage and i'm just thinking today. I wonder what's going on with that kid today but um, but it but you feel

01:52:07

Like you said you don't have enough faith. I'm doing something wrong You're trying to you're looking at every little aspect of your life.

01:52:13

What am I doing wrong? What did I do to cause that in his life? What did I do to cause that in my life, you know, and I was an athlete growing up.

01:52:20

I was always a star athlete You would I would never thought my life would have this kind of situation going on And and yet you look back and I say god he's using it and now

01:52:30

I look at it I say god use it for your glory, even though it's difficult I tell people that all the time and they don't you know people that unbelievers they don't understand that but You know,

01:52:39

I led my my mom out of the out of the catholic church she's going to a um christian church now and um,

01:52:45

You know, I told her that because they see the challenge, but they also see us Smiling, you know, we're still trying to live.

01:52:51

We're still trying to live for the lord Which he put it he put it in and that's the one thing about being in there, you know, god being sovereign overall that's one thing you get is

01:53:01

It's not about feeling because i'm this doesn't feel good. You know what i'm saying? I want it to go away I want him to be healed.

01:53:06

I I want my life to be a lot easier, but it's not about my feeling, you know It's about what god's using it in my life for whatever reason me and my wife's life

01:53:14

And I say, you know what if this is what made me be saved This is what kept me from being in the world then praise god, you know, then

01:53:22

I'd rather have this than than being lost You know pedro, would you believe that you and I have that in common that we were star athletes in high school?

01:53:30

Oh, yeah I believe that's totally wrong Me and pedro probably helped that morning.

01:53:36

Yeah I actually won a state championship andrew. Nice. Nice. Awesome Well, I I was okay.

01:53:43

So I will say for the record when when I was in seventh and eighth grade, I was a star wrestler

01:53:49

Dude, you're you're uh, you look like a wrestler, but you're you're lunchbox your lunchbox.

01:53:54

I crack up Every time I can imagine you all the kids playing and you're behind putting the lunchbox.

01:54:01

That's just that cracks me up Yeah for folks that don't get the content that don't know that so i've shared in it when

01:54:07

I was younger I'm, so I was so ocd that when all the kids would go out to to play

01:54:13

And throw their lunchboxes on the ground. I had to organize them by height order and color and I so I would spend the entire recess organizing lunchboxes

01:54:23

Uh, but yeah, no, I I actually was a good wrestler in seventh eighth grade But the reason was is because I was about 60 pounds under weight

01:54:31

So by the time I got into high school I was as a freshman. I stopped wrestling because people were trying to drop down to my weight and couldn't get low enough

01:54:41

So I was always wrestling people who had like 50 pounds on me Wrestlers wrestlers are crazy.

01:54:48

They I used to see those guys spitting in cups all day during you know I'm, like what are you doing? They're like we gotta gotta get to weight wearing those bags

01:54:54

I think it's illegal to do that now, but they run around I did nothing to drop weight. I just I was naturally

01:55:01

Underweight, but we had an advantage there. Yeah But uh, I was always wrestling people that were like half my age now

01:55:09

Yeah, exactly. So so, you know, I I think though you you you know, we're gonna be praying for you because the situation

01:55:16

You know what? That's like having a child like that. I mean not personally but having watched it in my church

01:55:22

It's not easy and so You know and I know That a lot of people don't understand it nor appreciate it nor nor really try to help it

01:55:33

Yeah, it's it's a challenging diagnosis because there's so many different aspects. There's behaviors. There's anxiety high levels of anxiety

01:55:39

There's ocd there's just different things There's schedule like ocd on a schedule any little thing goes off on that schedule and it could throw him out of whack

01:55:47

It could throw his whole day off and you know, there's there's a lot in my son is Nope breaking up again

01:55:58

And i'll just say you know, uh You know, this is this we were mentioning matzlick matzlick is also in in the autism spectrum, you know in in the asperger's it's a type of of uh autism

01:56:10

Uh, but for the for the highly intelligent, um, and and that's part of with ocd what you have is a very intelligent

01:56:17

A lot of times have the ocd Um, it's just something in that, you know, I think it's just a balance like okay

01:56:24

You're really smart, but you got these other problems Well, we think my my three -year -old is on the on the high functioning spectrum

01:56:31

Because my wife used to work with with uh kids with autism And so she's she's noticing every time he starts stemming and and things like that.

01:56:41

And so, uh, We we believe he's on the spectrum and it's the behaviors and you know trying to trying to keep those under control and things like that, but uh

01:56:52

The more the older he gets I I think the more it's it's starting to become less and less noticeable

01:56:59

Yeah Early intervention is the key. Um when when my son was, you know, this is 24 years ago

01:57:05

So he got diagnosed at three years old and they were like good luck and they handed us this pamphlet I'm a young dad.

01:57:10

I got two other kids and i'm trying to put food on the table I'm, like what do I do? Like how do I even what do

01:57:16

I do? So Now they have I mean aba is now paid for through insurance, which is great

01:57:21

We had to actually sue our school district. Um, because he had abuse going on there and and we sued

01:57:28

Nope We heard we sued that's all we got. I know and it was just getting good. Can you can you hear me?

01:57:35

Yeah Yeah, okay. Sorry about that, but we had to sue the school district to get services They were putting them in this little closet to learn and my wife was like no.

01:57:43

No, no, that's not acceptable and and so it's just it's been a

01:57:49

Constant it's been a battle for real like yeah, they pay for all of his services, which was great But then it put it taxed my wife because she's taking them all over the city this different serve

01:57:58

Which was great, but you know, it's we got other kids too. So that's the other thing It's like it doesn't just affect mom and dad affects everyone

01:58:08

Yeah, exactly Like what's you know, we get no attention from mom and dad because one child requires so much

01:58:14

Yeah, my daughter even told us she thought he was faking it to get it and i'm like, you know When she was younger, of course, she was like, yeah,

01:58:20

I always thought he was like faking it And then when you guys turned around he was acting normal and i'm like no but Just for the record we were talking about gifts and things like that So you got you know that matt slick believes in the continuation of gifts.

01:58:33

Yeah. Yeah He and i've actually debated it and you know, i've heard i've heard the debates.

01:58:38

Yeah I've heard about it when matt and I first debated it matt made arguments from scripture, but uh, we

01:58:45

I I it's one of the things I don't debate with him anymore because He does get emotional about it.

01:58:50

He is and there's a lot to his background, right? That it cost him a lot with this belief.

01:58:56

But yeah, I I heard about the church. He lost the church pastor and all that Yeah, and it's been that long discussion on on this show when we were talking about this nationist movie and he came on Yeah, yeah.

01:59:06

Well, we invited mom because he thought you know, he had a real Real problem with the the the film

01:59:11

It was kind of fun. Okay, this was kind of a private conversation, but I think I shared it on the show with matt here uh, but Matt had said he's like this.

01:59:20

This film is so divisive to the body of christ. I said matt you got a whole website about Calvinism, don't you think that's far more divisive and he was like, oh, yeah

01:59:33

So, I mean that's the thing I love about matt, you know, like if you if you show matt he's wrong he goes okay

01:59:38

Yeah, you're right Well andrew i've got to head out, uh, you got to get going and we're we're

01:59:44

I was going to close out Let me just pedro. Thanks for coming in um I appreciate it.

01:59:50

We'll be praying for you No, no problem guys. I I do appreciate your ministry and i've learned so much like I said and and um,

01:59:57

You know it this this this hits hits home for me um, because of what we've been through and what i've seen in my life and you know taking that blame of Not him not being healed

02:00:07

I did something wrong. What did I you know, and and that's that's horrible, you know, that's a That's a horrible way to go.

02:00:13

But um, anyway, I appreciate I appreciate any prayers and and um appreciate your ministry Well, thank you.

02:00:19

Pedro. We'll be we'll be praying for you I'm sure that I know that we have a listening audience that does does pray those in the in the comments usually talk about that so um

02:00:28

Let me just get to i'm going to put pedro in the backstage Let me just i'm going to hit two things real quick and then we'll we'll we'll leave that One is uh

02:00:37

Bible care and share fellowship says, uh, you know ask the question question for later

02:00:43

What do you think the proper interpretation is of uh, when the perfect shall come i'm not convinced

02:00:48

Uh that it is the completed canon like ifb teaches. Well, I believe it is the completed canon.

02:00:53

I I I think it's the only thing that it could be in the context. I do have a paper at striving for eternity .org

02:01:01

uh, I think it's Maybe search for the word perfect. I'll try to put these in the show notes for the for the podcast

02:01:08

So if you go find the podcast version of this, uh, which you can't always listen to these You could follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.

02:01:15

We did a show on this on this We did a show in the past on this i'll look for that as well to see if I could

02:01:21

I could link that It wasn't that long ago. I think it was like last year. We did. Yeah so, uh

02:01:27

So that we we do have resources that explain that in detail and I preached it at jim osmond's church on this um

02:01:34

You know, and I know that guys like mcarthur and justin peters disagree with me but I just don't see from the content that the the context and the around the passage and That passage

02:01:46

I don't see it could be anything else. So, uh real quick one last thing. Jody says Wonderful wisdom wisdom used on how you approach this young man.

02:01:54

Thank you for being straightforward But showing the love of christ that that's what we're trying to do. I mean look I feel bad for for him

02:02:02

I really do. I mean, I hope that every one of you are praying for for james Because he doesn't

02:02:09

I don't think he realizes he's caught up in a false teaching, right? And that's a bad place to be

02:02:16

And so we want to pray for him. We want to pray that he I mean, I hope my prayer for him is that this show

02:02:22

Helped him to see that what he's doing is taking passages out of scripture out of context and in doing so that he doesn't have god's word and not a single passage could he hold to and so I hope that he would he'd be willing to look at the articles.

02:02:39

We have at striving for attorney .org That I mentioned and look at them and say well There's something not right.

02:02:44

Let me let me just close with this and encourage you if if You need some help in this area at your church

02:02:51

Striving fraternity would be willing to come to your church. We have a new seminar. We're working on on cessationism

02:02:58

And so we'll come in and teach about cessationism. We'll teach its history

02:03:04

We'll go from the history to giving an overview of first corinthians 12 13 and 14 From there we focus in on what is the teleos in first corinthians 13 to say that that why?

02:03:15

These these gifts do not continue to today From there we're going to get into the message I gave on miracles and why we shouldn't be expecting miracles today and then from there we're going to answer the arguments that continuationists make against cessationists

02:03:29

And and and give you some discernment to be able to to answer from a biblical perspective

02:03:37

And what you're saying is I need to finish my book on tongues so that you can give them away

02:03:42

When you you should finish your book on tongues so I can have them available for this seminar

02:03:47

That's that's exactly what i'm saying. It's only been three years that i'm supposed to be working on.

02:03:53

Okay. Well I started writing my book on the deity of christ. I think um 10 years ago all the all the research is done.

02:04:03

It's the writing part that I hate. Uh, I mean, that's why I spent 14 years Researching what do they believe and then it took me about a dozen more years to finally write it

02:04:14

Well, I think i've got about a third a good third of it done It's the part that's going to take the longest is all of the exegesis of all of those verses

02:04:24

Yeah, well, hey, maybe you and I should work on that together and we'll encourage each other to finish it

02:04:30

Yeah, so so folks. I know I know I know I already saw in the audience We got some people saying hey, you forgot my pillow and logos.

02:04:37

I did hello and get logos. There you go My pillow use promo code sfe

02:04:42

Uh logos .com slash sfe go check them out. So there you go

02:04:47

Uh, we appreciate you guys coming in next week. Um, I I will be uh by next week.

02:04:56

Let's see. Will I be no I will be here. So, uh It's before I leave for idaho Um, I don't know that we have anything planned as of yet Uh on the schedule, but I think there's some things that i've been talking to folks

02:05:08

Uh, we're hoping to have a continuation of the talk from from Last week with jim osmond.

02:05:15

Hopefully we can we can get that to happen with curtis. We'll we'll see but uh, I I think that's that's all we have for right now.

02:05:22

Um, i'm glad I hope this was helpful for you guys I hope that look When we talk about the gifts as you saw with james, this is extremely personal to him it's an it's a personal experience and so you can see how how

02:05:38

This can very easily in conversations you have with people They can become something that it is

02:05:45

Just it becomes fireworks very quickly I hope that what we just did was display a way you can

02:05:52

Display a way to have these conversations without the fireworks um where you don't have to you avoid the personal

02:06:02

In that sense, but but focus in on What the scripture says that's what I tried to do tonight

02:06:09

If I did my job well Hopefully james goes home or he is home and he's thinking about this saying

02:06:16

I really need to be accurate to scripture I think he wants to be and so let's be praying for him