July 11, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 2 of 2)

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 11th day of July 2025.

And once again, I am really pumped up, absolutely excited and thrilled and delighted that we are entering into day number two of our first two-day debate between two brothers in Christ on a very important issue that divides the body of Christ.

The issue at hand is the thesis question that we are going to be addressing today on the ordination of women is, or should I say, let me phrase it in the way that the thesis statement is phrased, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

And today, just like we did yesterday, we are having Jared K. Henry, a Nazarene pastor who is actually a pastor of the Mackay Church of the Nazarene in Mackay, Indiana, whose website is mackaynaz .org, M-A-C-K-E-Y-N-A-Z-D-O-R-G.

He is taking the affirming position, defending the ordination of women. And first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jared K. Henry.

Thank you so much, Brother Chris. I had a good time yesterday. It's a new experience for me, but I like it. I love it, and I'm looking to learn some more today.

Amen.

And we have joining us to oppose the thesis that we just read to you, a Reformed Baptist pastor, Jeremiah Nortier, who is the pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. This is a confessional Reformed Baptist congregation.

The website for that church is the word125church .com. That's the word125church .com. And it's my honor and privilege also to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

Chris, thanks for having me back on. I had to get a good night's sleep from Jared taking me through the ringer yesterday. I'll be sure to get some coffee again this go-around.

Well, we are going to be doing nearly identical to what we did yesterday, except, God willing, with some additional new information that we are going to have our debaters bring up and involve in this exchange over their very stark difference and we're going to start with, once again, Pastor Jared K. Henry, the Nazarene pastor, who is affirming the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church.

He is going to start with a 10-minute recap of what took place yesterday. He is free to add any additional information that he cares to add within the 10-minute time frame. And you may begin with your 10-minute presentation now, Pastor Jared.

All right.

Thank you, Brother Chris. Thank you again. Thank you, Brother Jeremiah. It's good to be with you again today and appreciate the opportunity. Just kind of to recap where, in case those listeners out there, thank you for tuning in as well.

And those listeners out there who might be listening, just to kind of recap the kind of gist of my position is that the issue of the call of women by God, the positions of authority in the life of the church, is one that must be considered in the context of all of the Bible.

The Old and the New Testaments speak to this. It gives examples and support to the fact that God does call. He pours out His Spirit. They will minister, and it will include positions of authority in the life of the church.

I think that that's more than just coming to church only to learn. I think that men and women need to learn, but I think that there's also a time when women can speak on behalf of the Lord as he has called them to do so.

So I'm not debating, though. Today, we did talk a bit about yesterday, not really debating egalitarian versus complementarian views in the home. At this point, you can be egalitarian or complementarian and still believe in the ordination of women.

And sometimes the conflating of those things is—I kind of tried to bring that out a little bit yesterday as well. I think there's a number of different spheres of authority that all of us work within in our lives, and I think Scripture speaks uniquely to all of those different spheres.

That's home, family, church—all of those are different spheres of authority, and they overlap to some degree. There's significant interplay, no doubt, and navigating that sometimes requires some thoughtfulness and some biblical consideration, for sure, but they interplay.

So there are passages of Scripture. We already looked at some of those—1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. There's passages there. Brother Jeremiah has highlighted and focused on those, and I think it's important.

But I think it's also important to recognize that these have a broader context, not just one verse before or after, not even just the chapter or the book, but the whole of Scripture speaks to these verses.

And so in that context, I think it's important for us to recognize that there seems to be on this issue in Timothy and Corinthians, those letters, there seems to be something at face value that says, silence, no authority.

But in other places in Scripture, there seems to be the call to speak and to have authority, and the Holy Spirit will be poured out so that sons and daughters will have those kinds of authorities. And so I guess my overarching argument is simply not that there should be a particular ratio of men and women, but simply that God has historically called women to positions of authority.

And if He's called any, that means that we have to make allowance for the fact that God can still do that today. He still places people, men and women, in the positions that He called them to. Ordination is not just the work of the church.

The work of the church in the process of ordaining someone is to recognize that God has already called them. So we don't get to choose, we have to recognize that. Obviously, the church sometimes gets bound up in certain things and can either ordain and say, this person's called when they're not, or the church can say, this person's not called, and they actually are.

So I think, you know, I want to be cautious about saying some people are not called, despite the fact that there's biblical history that lends itself to that reality, and there are gifts and graces in their life, and there's fruit from their ministry.

I think all of those things kind of play into that reality. So those specific examples should not be dismissed. Some people who believe in women's ordination want to dismiss those scriptures. I'm simply saying we need to take them in the full context.

There is a time, obviously, at Paul's letter to the church at Timothy, Paul's letter to church at Corinth, address it specifically. There are specific circumstances and a time period or cultural issues that are going on.

We may not even be fully aware of what those might be, where women are to be silent. And Paul addresses lots of different issues in different contexts. All right, so my aim isn't to enforce women's rights, but for those listening to acknowledge this issue is much more complex than taking one verse out of the full context of Scripture and making it universally and chronologically forever applicable in every situation.

When Scripture also says something differently. So I want to take that seriously, but also consider that we might actually quench the spirits in our world of calling people if we make a blanket statement that women simply are not called of God in any form or fashion.

All right.

So and then also to clarify, my methods of exegesis will absolutely not allow for the approval of homosexual practice in any form because I'm about taking Scripture at its full context.

All right.

So it's got to be the full context. All of the Word of God speaks into the issues and in that context. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And actually, I think Brother Jeremiah agrees with me to some extent because that's why he doesn't have women refuse to allow women to braid their hair.

I'm not sure. I haven't been to the church, but I'm not sure if he requires head coverings of women or not in the church or allows them to wear gold, those kinds of things. It's because he understands as well that sometimes you have to take Scripture in its context and to discern and to exegete what it's trying to say.

So I look forward to today, and I love my brother Jeremiah. I just met him yesterday, and so I appreciated him and his serious and aggressive posture for what he believes to be true about what the Word said.

So I'm thankful for that.

OK, great. And I did fail to clarify in the beginning, as I did yesterday, that Pastor Jared K. Henry is not a liberal. He made that obvious in his opening remarks, but I just wanted to make sure that those that did not hear yesterday's first part of this two-day debate were clearly aware that both men believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

Neither one is liberal, and so Jared would be coming from a completely different point of view than those who would be liberal or apostate. And now we have Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist in this debate, is going to have a 10-minute recap as well, and he may introduce any new information that he cares to.

Pastor Jeremiah, your 10-minute opening begins now.

Thanks so much, Chris and Jared, for many of those kind of things that you said and highlighting perhaps many points of agreement. Something I too want to recap from yesterday is I believe what was demonstrated is me and both want to understand context, but I think we have different hermeneutical principles, and I think that was especially seen—and not to really just beat a dead horse on this, but when I asked Jared about what is Paul meaning when he says the husband of one wife is the person that is to fulfill the office of overseer who's to preach and teach sound doctrine on the Lord's name.

Well, as I pressed a little bit more into that, Jared essentially said, well, it's communicating a principle of two people within marriage. Now, I push strongly back against that because you're leaving the grammatical historical method of interpretation to say, I know Paul says this, but what I think he's really getting at is this kind of deeper principle.

I think that's destructive because advocates that Jared would be strongly against, like the gay community and LGBTQ advocates, they would make the same principle argument. I want people to understand he's not supporting them.

I'm trying to highlight that he adopts the same kind of hermeneutic that they would. My interpretation of that passage says if you look at all of what Paul's communicating, he's saying that for the office of overseer, it's not arbitrary.

It's not random. The apostle Paul is inspired by God to tell us the qualifications of overseer, and he's allowed to tell us. We know it's the will of God that he communicate through the apostle. And if he says that it's only to be for a man, well, God gets to make that call, not.

Us.

And so I think when you abandon this kind of hermeneutic that I'm contending for, then that leaves Jared in the position to do this. He has to defend women can be ordained. Women can have positions of authority over men in the church.

He says, yes. And then I immediately say, well, that's not possible because scripture literally says, Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to take the learning submissive role of learning.

So yesterday, one of Jared's main arguments was that women in the Old and New Testament, they prophesied and somehow this then gives them justification to exercise authority over men in the traditional understanding of 1 Timothy 2, 12.

And so I want to lean a little bit more into that is pressing into Jared's understanding of prophecy. I think that is the fundamental error. I think he's assuming that prophecy means since a woman can prophesy Old and New Testament, then she can fulfill the office of overseer.

Well, I just want to define terms that I want to contend for context. I know Jared wants to do that as well. Prophecy means to proclaim an inspired revelation. And so prophecy, many times, especially in the Old Testament, we see that it's in the context of worship.

First Chronicles 25 says David and the chiefs of the service were also set apart for the service, who prophesied with lyres and harps and cymbals and thanksgiving to praise the.

Lord.

So did women prophesy in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament? Yes, but in their proper context of declaring truths and worshiping God, that was never the means in which qualified them to be an overseer, rightly handling the word of truth to the saints on the Lord's day as a pastor.

Did Priscilla teach and prophesy to Apollos? Yes, but not as an ordained pastor teaching sound doctrine to the gathered together saints. She was a sister in Christ, fulfilling the one another's in the day to day life of fellowship with the saints.

But Jeremiah, in the last days, women can prophesy. And I want to take a few minutes, perhaps, to talk about Acts chapter 2's fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, where we read, in the last days, it shall be God declares, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters, Jeremiah, shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams, even on male servants and female servants.

Apologetic, dog. In those days, I will pour out my spirit, and they shall all prophesy. And so I just want to highlight that we need to understand the difference of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the fulfillment that's being talked about here.

Yes, in the Old Testament, women could already prophesy. Women like Miriam, Hannah, Deborah. So it's not just unique in some ways that women can prophesy in the New Testament. But there is something unique in the newer and better covenant in any way than the Old.

Covenant.

I would say, number one, what is being communicated here is that we as saints possess a greater measure of the Holy Spirit than Old Testament saints. We've always been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

But under the Old Covenant, theocratic Israel, they would have the Holy Spirit for a time in certain circumstances, and the Holy Spirit would come and go and leave. But in the New Covenant, we are promised to receive the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit that can never leave us and has promised to seal us to the day of redemption.

And so also in the days of the New Covenant, that's the last days, the days that come after the days of the former days of the Old Covenant, women will prophesy and worship, declaring.

Truth.

And here's the key. Whether Jew or Gentile, women can prophesy, whether Jew or Gentile, along with men. This is the mystery of Christ revealed that there is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free.

There is neither male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. This is a covenant that allows Jew and Gentile to come together in faith in Christ and worship.

Him.

And so women prophesying is no way a justification for women being ordained as a pastor or overseer.

Of the church.

And so I believe Jared is saying that the traditional understanding of 1 Timothy 2 cannot be harmonized with 1 Corinthians chapter 14. And so I'll kind of, with my last few minutes here, I kind of want to walk through 1 Corinthians 14, 26 through 35 and show you that there is not a contradiction.

These can work harmoniously hand in hand. Paul says, what then brothers, when you come together, I just want to pause. He means in church, in the Hebrews chapter 10 understanding of we should not neglect the gathering together of the saints.

This is talking about the local assembling. There needs to be order. He says each has a hymn. Can women engage in singing songs, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another? Yes. But then Paul says a lesson or a teaching to the corporate body.

I would say no. This is a principle of continuity from Old Testament into New Testament that this is not for women. Can they prophesy and declare truth in other contexts like we just pointed out in Acts?

Absolutely. But not here in the church setting. Can they give a revelation, a tongue and interpretation? Yes, we already know that women can prophesy and declare truth. And it's all for the building up together of the saints.

Verse 27 says, if any speak in a tongue, let there only be two or three there. And in turn, let some interpret. Women could engage in this prophetic process. But if there's no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God.

Let two or three prophets speak and let others weigh what is said.

Okay.

Now, weighing what is said and judging what is to be taught to the congregation and to discern what the will of God is, well, that's reserved for the leadership. That is reserved for the overseer, pastor, and elder, which would exclude women.

Women are not to teach, to rightly handle the word and exegete a passage of scripture and preach in this context of overseer. They would not be judging what is said as the early church receiving a prophetic word from God.

Verse 30. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent because there is to be order in church. For you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all be encouraged.

What a beautiful honor for those who are not called to be an overseer, which God gets to which would be many men, and this would also include women. They can be built up in their faith and learn by submitting to the teaching of the overseer and pastor.

And the spirits of prophets are to be subject to the prophets. For God is not the God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent in the churches.

Now, Paul has already made a really big case that this is by design from creation before.

The fall.

Women are to be the helpmate, not just for the marriage. And so I agree with Jared. We don't want to conflate marriage with the church, but we see principles of continuity. So I'm not collapsing or conflating these.

I want to properly distinguish, and I'm saying if we distinguish marriage in the church, there's a point of continuity where wives are to submit to their husbands and women. Beautiful saints in the church are also to submit to the overseer, who is to be only male.

Thank you so much for your attention.

Wow.

10 minutes on the dot. Well, we are going to our first commercial break, and when we return, both of our debaters are going to provide eight-minute rebuttals each. And if you have a question for our debaters, we may have time at the end to at least read a couple of them.

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On the thesis, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable. And to affirm this thesis statement is Pastor Jared K. Henry, a Nazarene. And to oppose or deny this thesis statement is Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist pastor.

And now each of our debaters will have eight minutes for rebuttal time, starting with Pastor Jared K. Henry. You may begin, sir.

All right, thank you. Appreciate Brother Jeremiah's response there, and even really digging in, I might just, if I have time, get into 1 Corinthians chapter 14, too, in just a moment. One of the things that I feel like, and maybe Jeremiah will develop on this, is that Jeremiah has kind of implied that some of these roles that women have served in, while they were functionally doing certain things, they didn't have official titles, and thus it's permissible.

Or, for example, you can have authority over a man in terms of preaching as long as it's not in a building on Sunday from a pulpit. You know, so there seems to be a bit of—and I'm sure he'll clarify that for us maybe in a moment—but the idea of prophesying, you know, I believe that prophecy, even by his definition, is inherently authoritative.

If someone is speaking on behalf of God in that kind of way, then they come with some level of authority out and out. So, with that reality, for example, and of the prophet, it not only says that she did prophesy, but she actually, it implies she had the title.

She is a prophet and is speaking in that kind of way from a position of authority. Now, maybe Jeremiah can flesh this out as well, but his implication is that as long as she isn't doing it with official recognition from a church or as long as she's not doing her prophesying in a service, then it's okay or whatever.

But, again, prophecy is inherently authoritative. Whether someone has the title or not, it has authority to it. My point is simply this, that we've got to be careful that we dismiss God's call based upon, I believe, two particular passages of Scripture to the neglect of all other Scripture.

And that we have said, no, because you are biologically a woman, you simply cannot be called of God to have any authority to speak for him. And in the pulpit, you are only able to listen. Now, Jeremiah didn't talk about this, but in fact, the Scripture that he went back to says not just to listen, it says not to speak at all.

In fact, you can't even ask a question in the church. If you have a question, you have to ask your husband when you get home. All right, so I don't know that Jeremiah would hold to that, but he's using the same hermeneutic idea, and he's just not applying it across the board.

He's only picking and choosing in certain situations. I'll give you another example, Romans chapter 16, verses 1 and 2. Paul says, I commend to you our sister Phoebe. Some translations translate the word servant.

Some translate it deacon. The word there that she was a deacon or a servant of the church there. Now, the same word is used frequently in Scripture and often in other places, recognized and translated as deacon.

For example, Philippians chapter 1, verse 1, Paul writes to include the overseers and.

The deacons.

This is the same word. It's used. Now, what's being said here? I think what's being said is that some people want to choose when they'll translate that a certain way because they understand that the translation has influence.

But the reality is, it might be that Phoebe wouldn't be recognized today in some churches, even though she was called. Now, I could be wrong. Brother Jeremiah may or may not—I don't know if he has female deacons at his church or not, but he says he's shaking his head no.

So here's Phoebe, who is a deacon of the church, you know, she's a servant, and that's what deacon means. All right. So to some extent, there's, again, there's authority. There's recognition from Paul to Phoebe in Romans chapter 16 there and in the prophetess is the same way.

So I can give lots of different examples, but at some point, you know, we can't just simply keep ignoring the fact that Scripture is going out of its way to make sure that we understand there are times when God calls women, and these women do have authority and that they are—their authority is further affirmed by the fact that they are a part not just of a mention, but they are a part of the church in those kinds of ways—serving and preaching, prophesying, whatever you want to say.

I also think that it's important to note that spiritually—and I'll go back kind of to what I think are the different spheres of authority and what that looks like. And when I talk about that authority, I don't necessarily mean ruling over.

Submission always means—submission is given. It's not forced or demanded, necessarily. We're called to it. So, Galatians chapter 3, verse 26, there's neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Now, obviously, what Paul's not saying to the church at Galatia is that there's no inherent difference between men and women. But what he's saying is that in Jesus Christ, spiritually, when you're brothers and sisters in Christ, there is a different way of operating and interacting in that way.

We don't distinguish spiritually between men and women.

All right?

We recognize there's biological differences and there's familial differences, maybe. I think Jeremiah would argue for that. However, in Christ—so, when it says that God is the head of man and man's the head of wife, do we, maybe—and this is a question made for the next section—but does that mean for Jeremiah or those that oppose women in ordination that somehow men are in between Christ and women?

And they're a necessary component in that bridging them spiritually.

All right?

So, let me talk—how much time do I have left?

It is six minutes and 50 seconds into your presentation. So, a minute—.

Okay, I got another minute. Let me just refer, then, to 1 Corinthians chapter 14—well, 1 Timothy chapter 3. He talked about the overseer and the husband of one wife. My point on that verse was not that it was about one man, one woman, but that it was against polygamy.