July 11, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 2 of 2)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 11th day of July 2025.

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And once again, I am really pumped up, absolutely excited and thrilled and delighted that we are entering into day number two of our first two -day debate between two brothers in Christ on a very important issue that divides the body of Christ.

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The issue at hand is the thesis question that we are going to be addressing today.

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The ordination of women is, or should

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I say, let me phrase it in the way that the thesis statement is phrased, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

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And today, just like we did yesterday, we are having Jared K.

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Henry, a Nazarene pastor who is actually a pastor of the

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Mackay Church of the Nazarene in Mackay, Indiana, whose website is mackaynaz .org,

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M -A -C -K -E -Y N -A -Z -D -O -R -G. He is taking the affirming position defending the ordination of women.

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And first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jared K.

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Henry. Thank you so much, Brother Chris. I had a good time yesterday.

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It's a new experience for me, but I like it, I love it, and I'm looking to learn some more today.

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Amen. And we have joining us to oppose the thesis that we just read to you, a

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Reformed Baptist pastor, Jeremiah Nortier, who is the pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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This is a confessional Reformed Baptist congregation. The website for that church is the word125church .com.

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That's the word125church .com. And it's my honor and privilege also to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

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Chris, thanks for having me back on. I had to get a good night's sleep from Jared taking me through the ringer yesterday, so I was sure to get some coffee again this go -around.

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Well, we are going to be doing nearly identical to what we did yesterday, except,

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God willing, with some additional new information that we are going to have our debaters bring up and involve in this exchange over their very stark difference.

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And we're going to start with, once again, Pastor Jared K.

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Henry, the Nazarene pastor who is affirming the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church.

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He is going to start with a 10 -minute recap of what took place yesterday.

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He is free to add any additional information that he cares to add within the 10 -minute time frame.

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And you may begin with your 10 -minute presentation now, Pastor Jared. All right.

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Thank you, Brother Chris. Thank you again. Thank you, Brother Jeremiah. It's good to be with you again today.

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And I appreciate the opportunity just kind of to recap where, in case those listeners out there, thank you for tuning in as well.

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And those listeners out there who might be listening, just to kind of recap the kind of the gist of my position is that the issue of the call of women by God to positions of authority in the life of the church is one that must be considered in the context of all of the

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Bible. The Old and the New Testaments speak to this. It gives examples and support to the fact that God does call.

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He pours out His Spirit. They will minister, and it will include positions of authority in the life of the church.

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I think that that's more than just coming to church only to learn. I think that men and women need to learn, but I think that there's also a time when women can speak on behalf of the

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Lord as He has called them to do so. So I'm not debating, though. Today, we did talk a bit about yesterday, not really debating egalitarian versus complementarian views in the home.

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At this point, you can be egalitarian or complementarian and still believe in the ordination of women.

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And sometimes the conflating of those things is—I kind of try to bring that out a little bit yesterday as well.

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I think there's a number of different spheres of authority that all of us work within in our lives, and I think

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Scripture speaks uniquely to all of those different spheres. That's home, family, church—all of those are different spheres of authority, and they overlap to some degree.

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There's significant interplay, no doubt, and navigating that sometimes requires some thoughtfulness and some biblical consideration, for sure, but they interplay.

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So there are passages of Scripture. We already looked at some of those—1 Timothy and 1

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Corinthians. There's passages there. Brother Jeremiah has highlighted and focused on those, and I think it's important.

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But I think it's also important to recognize that these have a broader context, not just one verse before or after, not even just the chapter or the book, but the whole of Scripture speaks to these verses.

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And so in that context, I think it's important for us to recognize that there seems to be on this issue in Timothy and Corinthians, those letters, there seems to be something at face value that says, silence, no authority.

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But in other places in Scripture, there seems to be the call to speak and to have authority, and the

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Holy Spirit will be poured out so that sons and daughters will have those kinds of authorities.

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And so I guess the overarching argument is simply not that there should be a particular ratio of men and women, but simply that God has historically called women to positions of authority.

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And if he's called any, that means that we have to make allowance for the fact that God can still do that today.

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He still places people, men and women, into positions that he called them to.

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Ordination is not just the work of the church. The work of the church in the process of ordaining someone is to recognize that God has already called them.

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So we don't get to choose, we have to recognize that. Obviously, the church sometimes gets bound up in certain things and can either ordain and say, this person's called when they're not, or the church can say, this person's not called, and they actually are.

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So I think I want to be cautious about saying some people are not called, despite the fact that there's biblical history that lends itself to that reality, and there are gifts and graces in their life, and there's fruit from their ministry.

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I think all of those things kind of play into that reality. So those specific examples should not be dismissed.

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Some people who believe in women's ordination want to dismiss those scriptures. I'm simply saying we need to take them in the full context.

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There is a time, obviously, at Paul's letter to the church at Timothy, Paul's letter to church at Corinth, address it specifically.

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There are specific circumstances and a time period or cultural issues that are going on.

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We may not even be fully aware of what those might be, where women are to be styling. And Paul addresses lots of different issues in different contexts.

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All right? So my aim isn't to enforce women's rights, but for those listening to acknowledge this issue is much more complex than taking one verse out of the full context of Scripture and making it universally and chronologically forever applicable in every situation.

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When Scripture also says something differently. So I want to take that seriously, but also consider that we might actually quench the spirits in our world of calling people if we make a blanket statement that women simply are not called of God in any form or fashion.

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All right? And then also to clarify, my methods of exegesis will absolutely not allow for the approval of homosexual practice in any form because I'm about taking

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Scripture at its full context. All right? So it's got to be the full context.

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All of the Word of God speaks into the issues and in that context.

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So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And actually, I think Brother Jeremiah agrees with me to some extent because that's why he doesn't have women refuse to allow women to braid their hair.

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I'm not sure. I haven't been to the church, but I'm not sure if he requires head coverings of women or not in the church or allows them to wear gold, those kinds of things.

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It's because he understands as well that sometimes you have to take Scripture in its context to discern and to exegete what it's trying to say.

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So I look forward to today, and I love my brother Jeremiah. I just met him yesterday, and so I appreciated him and his serious and aggressive posture for what he believes to be true about what the

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Word says. So I'm thankful for that. Okay, great. And I did fail to clarify in the beginning, as I did yesterday, that Pastor Jared K.

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Henry is not a liberal. He made that obvious in his opening remarks, but I just wanted to make sure that those that did not hear yesterday's first part of this two -day debate were clearly aware that both men believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, neither one is liberal.

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And so Jared would be coming from a completely different point of view than those who would be liberal or apostate.

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And now we have Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist in this debate, is going to have a 10 -minute recap as well, and he may introduce any new information that he cares to.

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Pastor Jeremiah, your 10 -minute opening begins now. Thanks so much,

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Chris and Jared, for many of those kind of things that you said and highlighting perhaps many points of agreement.

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Something I too want to recap from yesterday is I believe what was demonstrated is me and both want to understand context, but I think we have different hermeneutical principles.

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And I think that was especially seen, and not to really just beat a dead horse on this, but when I asked

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Jared about what is Paul meaning when he says, the husband of one wife is the person that is to fulfill the office of overseer, who's to preach and teach sound doctrine on the

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Lord's day. Well, as I pressed a little bit more into that, Jared essentially said, well, it's communicating a principle of two people within marriage.

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Now, I push strongly back against that because you're leaving the grammatical, historical method of interpretation to say,

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I know Paul says this, but what I think he's really getting at is this kind of deeper principle.

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I think that's destructive because advocates that Jared would be strongly against, like the gay community and LGBTQ advocates, they would make the same principle argument.

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I want people to understand he's not supporting them. I'm trying to highlight that he adopts the same kind of hermeneutic that they would.

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My interpretation of that passage says if you look at all of what Paul's communicating, he's saying that for the office of overseer, it's not arbitrary.

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It's not random. The apostle Paul is inspired by God to tell us the qualifications of overseer, and he's allowed to tell us.

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We know it's the will of God that he communicates through the apostle. And if he says that it's only to be for a man, well,

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God gets to make that call, not us. And so I think when you abandon this kind of hermeneutic that I'm contending for, then that leaves

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Jared in the position to do this. He has to defend. Women can be ordained.

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Women can have positions of authority over men in the church. He says yes, and then I immediately say, well, that's not possible because Scripture literally says,

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Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to take the learning, submissive role of learning.

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So yesterday, one of Jared's main arguments was that women in the Old and New Testament, they prophesied, and somehow this then gives them justification to exercise authority over men in the traditional understanding of 1

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Timothy 2 .12. And so I want to lean a little bit more into that, is pressing into Jared's understanding of prophecy.

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I think that is the fundamental error. I think he's assuming that prophecy means, since a woman can prophesy

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Old and New Testament, then she can fulfill the office of overseer.

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Well, I just want to define terms and I want to contend for context. I know Jared wants to do that as well. Prophecy means to proclaim an inspired revelation.

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And so prophecy, many times, especially in the Old Testament, we see that it's in the context of worship. 1

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Chronicles 25 says David and the chiefs of the service were also set apart for the service, who prophesied with lyres and harps and cymbals and thanksgiving to praise the

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Lord. So did women prophesy in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament? Yes, but in their proper context of declaring truths and worshiping

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God. That was never the means in which qualified them to be an overseer, rightly handling the word of truth to the saints on the

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Lord's day as a pastor. Did Priscilla teach and prophesy to Apollos? Yes, but not as an ordained pastor teaching sound doctrine to the gathered together saints.

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She was a sister in Christ, fulfilling the one another's in the day to day life of fellowship with the saints.

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But Jeremiah, in the last days, women can prophesy. And I want to take a few minutes, perhaps, to talk about Acts chapter 2's fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, where we read in the last days, it shall be

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God declares, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters, Jeremiah, shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams, even on male servants and female servants.

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Apologetic dog. In those days, I will pour out my spirit and they shall all prophesy.

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And so I just want to highlight that we need to understand the difference of the Old Covenant and the

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New Covenant and the fulfillment that's being talked about here. Yes, in the Old Testament, women could already prophesy.

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Women like Miriam, Hannah, Deborah. So it's not just unique in some ways that women can prophesy in the

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New Testament. But there is something unique in the newer and better covenant in any way than the

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Old Covenant. I would say, number one, what is being communicated here is that we as saints possess a greater measure of the

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Holy Spirit than Old Testament saints. We've always been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

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But under the Old Covenant, theocratic Israel, they would have the Holy Spirit for a time in certain circumstances, and the

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Holy Spirit would come and go and leave. But in the New Covenant, we are promised to receive the permanent indwelling of the

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Holy Spirit that can never leave us and has promised to seal us to the day of redemption. And so also in the days of the

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New Covenant, that's the last days, the days that come after the days of the former days of the Old Covenant, women will prophesy and worship, declaring truth.

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And here's the key. Whether Jew or Gentile, women can prophesy, whether Jew or Gentile, along with men.

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This is the mystery of Christ revealed that there is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is neither male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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This is a better covenant. This is a covenant that allows Jew and Gentile to come together in faith in Christ and worship him.

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And so women prophesying is no way a justification for women being ordained as a pastor or overseer of the church.

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And so I believe Jared is saying that the traditional understanding of 1 Timothy 2 cannot be harmonized with 1

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Corinthians chapter 14. And so I'll kind of, with my last few minutes here, I kind of want to walk through 1

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Corinthians 14, 26 through 35 and show you that there is not a contradiction.

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These can work harmoniously hand in hand. Paul says, what then brothers, when you come together,

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I just want to pause. He means in church, in the Hebrews chapter 10 understanding of we should not neglect the gathering together of the saints.

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This is talking about the local assembling. There needs to be order. He says each has a hymn.

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Can women engage in singing songs, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another? Yes. But then

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Paul says a lesson or a teaching to the corporate body. I would say no.

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This is a principle of continuity from Old Testament into New Testament, that this is not for women.

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Can they prophesy and declare truth in other contexts like we just pointed out in Acts?

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Absolutely. But not here in the church setting. Can they give a revelation, a tongue and interpretation? Yes, we already know that women can prophesy and declare truth.

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And it's all for the building up together of the saints. Verse 27 says, if any speak in a tongue, let there only be two or three there.

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And in turn, let some interpret. Women could engage in this prophetic process.

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But if there's no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God.

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Let two or three prophets speak and let others weigh what is said.

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Okay. Now, weighing what is said and judging what is to be taught to the congregation and to discern what the will of God is, well, that's reserved for the leadership.

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That is reserved for the overseer, pastor, and elder, which would exclude women.

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Women are not to teach, to rightly handle the word, and exegete a passage of scripture and preach in this context of overseer.

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They would not be judging what is said as the early church receiving a prophetic word from God.

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Verse 30. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent because there is to be order in church.

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For you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all be encouraged. What a beautiful honor for those who are not called to be an overseer, which

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God gets to which would be many men, and this would also include women.

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They can be built up in their faith and learn by submitting to the teaching of the overseer and pastor.

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And the spirits of prophets are to be subject to the prophets. For God is not the God of confusion, but of peace.

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As in all the churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent in the churches. Now, Paul has already made a really big case that this is by design from creation before the fall.

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Women are to be the helpmate, not just for the marriage. And so I agree with Jared.

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We don't want to conflate marriage with the church, but we see principles of continuity.

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So I'm not collapsing or conflating these. I want to properly distinguish.

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And I'm saying if we distinguish marriage in the church, there's a point of continuity where wives are to submit to their husbands and women, beautiful saints in the church, are also to submit to the overseer, who is to be only male.

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Thank you so much for your attention. Wow. 10 minutes on the dot. Well, we are going to our first commercial break.

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And when we return, both of our debaters are going to provide eight -minute rebuttals each.

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And if you have a question for our debaters, we may have time at the end to at least read a couple of them.

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So if you want to give it a shot and send in an email with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please specify which debater you are directing your question to.

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and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with day number two of our two -day debate, which began yesterday.

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On the thesis, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable, and to affirm this thesis statement is

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Pastor Jared K. Henry, a Nazarene, and to oppose or deny this thesis statement is

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Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist pastor. And now each of our debaters will have eight minutes for rebuttal time, starting with Pastor Jared K.

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Henry. You may begin, sir. All right, thank you. Appreciate Brother Jeremiah's response there and even really digging in.

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I might just, if I have time, get into 1 Corinthians 14 in just a moment. One of the things that I feel like, and maybe

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Jeremiah will develop on this, is that Jeremiah's kind of implied that some of these roles that women have served in, while they were functionally doing certain things, they didn't have official titles, and thus it's permissible.

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Or for example, you can have authority over a man in terms of preaching as long as it's not in a building on Sunday from a pulpit.

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So there seems to be a bit of, and I'm sure he'll clarify that with us maybe in a moment, but the idea of prophesying.

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I believe that prophecy, even by his definition, is inherently authoritative.

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If someone is speaking on behalf of God in that kind of way, then they come with some level of authority out now.

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So with that reality, for example, and of the prophet, it not only says that she did prophesy, but she actually, it implies she had the title.

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She is a prophet and is speaking in that kind of way from a position of authority.

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Now, maybe Jeremiah can flesh this out as well, but his implication is that as long as she isn't doing it with official recognition from a church or as long as she's not doing her prophesying in a service, then it's okay or whatever.

37:01

But again, prophecy is inherently authoritative. Whether someone has the title or not, it has authority to it.

37:11

So my point is simply this, that we've got to be careful that we dismiss

37:18

God's call based upon, I believe, two particular passages of Scripture to the neglect of all other

37:28

Scripture. And that we have said, no, because you are biologically a woman, you simply cannot be called of God to have any authority to speak for him.

37:44

And in the pulpit, you are only able to listen. Now, Jeremiah didn't talk about this, but in fact, the

37:51

Scripture that he went back to says not just to listen, it says not to speak at all. In fact, you can't even ask a question in the church.

37:59

If you have a question, you have to ask your husband, when can you get home? All right, so I don't know that Jeremiah would hold to that, but he's using the same hermeneutic idea and he's just not applying it across the board.

38:14

He's only picking and choosing in certain situations. I'll give you another example, Romans chapter 16 verses 1 and 2.

38:22

Paul says, I commend to you our sister Phoebe. Some translations translate the word servant, some translate it deacon.

38:31

The word there that she was a deacon or a servant of the church there.

38:38

Now, the same word is used frequently in Scripture and often in other places, recognized and translated as deacon.

38:49

For example, Philippians chapter 1 verse 1, Paul writes to include the overseers and the deacons.

38:56

This is the same word it's used. Now, what's being said here? I think what's being said is that some people want to choose when they'll translate that a certain way, because they understand that the translation has influenced.

39:10

But the reality is, it might be that Phoebe wouldn't be recognized today in some churches, even though she was called.

39:19

Now, I could be wrong. Brother Jeremiah may or may not. I don't know if he has female deacons at his church or not, but he says he's shaking his head no.

39:26

So here's Phoebe, who is a deacon of the church.

39:32

She's a servant, and that's what deacon means. To some extent, there's authority.

39:40

There's recognition from Paul to Phoebe in Romans chapter 16 there, and in the prophetess is the same way.

39:47

I can give lots of different examples, but at some point, we can't just simply keep ignoring the fact that Scripture is going out of its way to make sure that we understand there are times when

40:03

God calls women, and these women do have authority, and that their authority is further affirmed by the fact that they are a part not just of a mention, but they are a part of the church in those kinds of ways—serving and preaching, prophesying, whatever you want to say.

40:24

I also think that it's important to note that spiritually—and I'll go back to what

40:29

I think are the different spheres of authority and what that looks like—and when

40:35

I talk about that authority, I don't necessarily mean ruling over.

40:40

Submission always means submission is given. It's not forced or demanded, necessarily.

40:47

We're called to it. So, Galatians chapter 3, verse 26, there's neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

40:59

Now, obviously, what Paul's not saying to the church at Galatia is that there's no inherent difference between men and women, but what he's saying is that in Jesus Christ, spiritually, when you're brothers and sisters in Christ, there is a different way of operating and interacting in that way.

41:18

We don't distinguish spiritually between men and women.

41:24

We recognize there's biological differences, and there's familial differences, maybe.

41:29

I think Jeremiah would argue for that. However, in Christ, so when it says that God is the head of man and man's the head of wife, do we, maybe, and this is a question made for the next section, but does that mean for Jeremiah or those that oppose women that somehow men are in between Christ and women, and they're a necessary component in that bridging them spiritually?

42:01

All right, so let me talk…how much time do I have left? It is six minutes and 50 seconds into your presentation, so a minute.

42:11

I got another minute. Let me just refer, then, to 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Well, first Timothy chapter 3, he talked about the overseer and the husband of one wife.

42:22

My point on that verse was not that it was about one man, one woman, but that it was against polygamy.

42:30

That's why he didn't distinguish one husband. He said one wife. That is to say that an overseer should not be involved in polygamy.

42:40

Some people translate that into issues of divorce and remarriage as well, but that's the point of that scripture there.

42:47

1 Corinthians chapter 14, it's interesting that, as Jeremiah read, that he brought up the fact that there's multiple places where people are to be silent, and it indicates that silence.

43:00

I think that the same place where the men were to be silent, the women should have been silent as well, and maybe that part of that context is to say that maybe the women were being disruptive during those times, and so in that context, in that situation,

43:14

Paul said, you need to be silent. In those moments of silence, you need to be silent, all right?

43:23

And because it's such a problem, you need to be quiet, and it's shameful the way that you're talking from now.

43:32

You need to talk about this at home. So again, this, I think, lends itself to context. Verse 29 talks about prophets.

43:38

In verse 32, the spirit of prophets being subject to prophets. Pastor Jared, you are out of time.

43:45

Actually, you're over. Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, well, there we go. That's okay. And now we have

43:51

Jeremiah Nortier. You may have an extra 20 seconds onto your eight minutes if you choose to, since Pastor Jared went 20 seconds over, but you may begin your eight -minute rebuttal.

44:06

All right. Thank you so much. All right, Jared. I felt my blood levels raising just a little bit.

44:14

I felt some of that, whatever you said earlier, just in all good fun and charitability.

44:23

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I'm going to try to address, I had points from your opening to your rebuttal here.

44:31

The thing that really got my blood pumping a little bit, I guess, is when you're saying, well, can women, you know, exercise authority, teach, serve, all these things, but are you saying they just, they can't have a certain title?

44:43

And I'm saying, ooh, timeout, timeout, because it's the Apostle Paul that said, there is a title to an office in the church.

44:52

Jared, please don't take my word for it. The Apostle Paul says, the saying is trustworthy.

44:57

If anyone, it's in the masculine context, by the way, aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

45:08

I'm not the one making a big deal about titles. The Apostle Paul is. It's the same God who said there is a office of apostle.

45:17

Guess what? No women apostles. In the sense that Jesus called them out in a special, unique way.

45:23

It was men only. It's because there is something inherent that God has designed for men to be the leaders in the home and in the spiritual home of the church.

45:36

So when you say that there's a few different ways to translate the husband of one wife, even if you take the one woman man stance, he's talking about polygamy, that still proves my case that marriage is built on the definition, not just the principle, but the definition of one male and one female that is a husband and wife.

46:00

That's what the role of overseer has to fulfill. It's not saying, you know, take your pick.

46:06

If you're a woman, you just have to be a loving helpmate to your husband. But hey, you can fulfill this role of overseer.

46:13

That's not what Paul is communicating. I think in us talking about wonderful Old Testament text, gospel text about,

46:20

Anna being a prophet, prophesying even into the book of Acts, this is the central issue right here.

46:28

In my opinion, you are struggling to understand Paul rightly, and I will say all the other surrounding context supports my case.

46:37

I'll jump to one of the last things that you said. There was a lot of things going on in the early church where women were being disrupted.

46:43

You know why? Because they were going against their authority over the leadership of men in their life, and they were speaking against that.

46:52

I don't know that. Well, Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.

46:58

This is not in a familial context of a husband and wife. This is in the general principle that's rooted in creation,

47:07

Jared, that Adam was created first. I'm not talking about their marriage. Of course, they were married as the example that we look to in scripture, but this is a point on creation.

47:17

That's why you're not going to get a family dynamic in that context. So, when you talk about names and titles, go back to the apostle

47:24

Paul. He is the one that's laying out the criteria, and he's an inspired apostle. It's not just my opinions.

47:32

Okay, something else you said is prophecy. You said assume some level of authority.

47:38

I am totally on board with that. Of course, heralding the word of God is authoritative, but this is a mutual shared authority of the saints with the

47:46

Great Commission. So, I believe you are conflating the kind of authority that we are debating from the thesis about who can be ordained as a pastor to exercise authority, preaching, contending for sound doctrine, because that's a specific kind of authority that's laid out in scripture by the apostle

48:04

Paul, and I would argue holistically when we look to 1 Corinthians 14, 1

48:09

Timothy, and the whole canonical witness. And so, yes, but that's missing the issue.

48:15

What kind of authority does prophesying have? Anna was a prophetess. She was not a priest.

48:22

Okay, so I'm actually going to ask you questions about that coming cross -ex, so get ready, Jared, because that's a really big deal.

48:28

Something else you said is, okay, since women are different biologically,

48:33

I think you're implying, does that mean that they're lesser and they can't fulfill certain roles? No. Difference in biology does not mean that they are lesser in value and can't fulfill the roles that God has assigned for them to do.

48:47

Okay, I tell people, my wife has called to submit to me, and she is way smarter than me, and yet God has called her to take the submissive role, and I tell her, babe, follow me as unto the

49:01

Lord. I'm going to make mistakes, but trust that God is going to use it for our good and for his glory.

49:06

And I see my wife sometimes looking at me like, all right, she knows I'm a knucklehead sometimes. But the thing is, we can't go against what

49:13

God has clearly laid out and prescribed. So can women prophesy? Yes, in the proper context, declaring a dog's truth and worshiping.

49:22

You mentioned Phoebe. She was a servant, okay? Nowhere does Paul say that she was the office of a deacon.

49:31

You just don't get that. You just get that she is a servant. And guess what? She definitely wasn't fulfilling the office of overseer.

49:39

So I actually agree with you a lot, Jared, when you say we cannot proof text, but we must look at context.

49:46

I think we've got to define our terms, and we must exhaust the immediate context as we branch out into the overall canonical context.

49:53

I just want people to know I quoted Galatians 3, 28 first in this debate, because yes, there are distinctions between men and women biologically, by design, by creation, but we are one in Christ Jesus.

50:06

But I don't want you to fall into what Jared says, but we are all the same spiritually. Well, soteriologically, we're justified by grace through faith in Christ alone, but that verse cannot be a proof text for ecclesiology.

50:21

That's why I'm going back to those texts like 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3. So maybe we can talk a little bit more about that context.

50:29

I would love to do it. Something that you begin with, maybe I'm going a little bit in reverse order here. Now, this isn't super germane to the debate,

50:37

I suppose, but Jared said you can be egalitarian or complementarian and believe that women can be ordained pastors.

50:45

I would just lovingly disagree with you. I do not think you can be consistently complementarian and hold that perspective, because the historic complementarian role knows that God, when he assigned roles to men and women, it wasn't arbitrary, that it was grounded in creation.

51:03

So there was a particular way that God created Adam to work hard, and there was a particular way that God created

51:10

Eve to be a suitable helpmate for him. That's already showing that there's male headship, which

51:18

Jared agreed with me yesterday. So I just want to softly disagree. I do not think you can be complementarian and believe that women can be ordained as a pastor to exercise teaching of authority over men on the

51:32

Lord's day. And that maybe is a good place to call it, because like I said,

51:37

I got some questions for you, Jared. Okay. You did have a minute left, but if you'd like to just let that go, that's fine.

51:47

And we are going to our final break right now. I'm sorry, our middle break, not our final break, our midway break.

51:58

And I do want you to mark on your calendars something very exciting.

52:04

Both of these men are returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in two weeks on Thursday and Friday, July 24th and 25th.

52:18

They will be returning to debate another issue, and perhaps an even more important issue.

52:26

The debate thesis is Christians can attain total freedom from sin in this life and total freedom from known sin.

52:40

That's a very key word that I love that. Christians can attain total freedom from known sin in this life and affirming that will be the

52:51

Nazarene pastor, Jared K. Henry, and opposing that thesis will be the

52:56

Reformed Baptist pastor, Jeremiah Nortier. So mark your calendars for Thursday and Friday, July 24th and 25th.

53:06

And we are going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away. Puritan Reformed is a

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Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Joseph Peifer of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. And the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

01:07:17

Welcome back. Before we return to our debate, which is day number two of a two -day debate that we began yesterday between Nazarene Pastor Jared K.

01:07:32

Henry and Reformed Baptist Pastor Jeremiah Nortier on the thesis that women can be ordained into positions of leadership or authority over men in Christ's church.

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And Jared K. Henry is affirming that thesis, and Jeremiah Nortier is opposing or denying that thesis.

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01:10:59

I may be able to help you find a church that is biblically faithful, as I have done with listeners in my audience spanning the entire globe.

01:11:08

I've helped many of them find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, that may be you too if you are without a church home.

01:11:16

So send me an email if you are in that predicament to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com

01:11:21

and put, I need a church in the subject line. And now we are returning to the second half of day number two of our debate, and we are going to have cross -examination periods of 12 minutes each.

01:11:39

And this time, Jared K. Henry is going to cross -examine

01:11:44

Jeremiah Nortier first. And Jared K. Henry, you have 12 minutes and you may begin.

01:11:56

Well, there was a few questions I kind of alluded to earlier. Maybe I'll get to some of the talks about Deborah.

01:12:05

She served as both a judge and a prophetess. And so she had authority.

01:12:11

She spoke on behalf of God. And I guess my question is, if God raised up a woman to such a prominent place of leadership, would you be open to God doing the same thing in the church today?

01:12:26

Great question. There's a few things I want to point out. Number one, under the old covenant, God did make an exception in that way to be judged.

01:12:33

But Isaiah 3 tells us that was to the judgment of the men, not meaning, if you will.

01:12:40

So number one, I want to distinguish the covenants. That's very important for my argument. And so number two,

01:12:46

I believe that women do have kinds of authority. Real quick question, just to clarify.

01:12:53

Where is it that he qualified and, quote, made allowance for women to be judges?

01:13:00

When he appointed Deborah as judge. Okay, fair enough. Go ahead.

01:13:06

Sorry, I just need to clarify that. I didn't know if there was some reference to that. Okay, go ahead. No, I am referring to,

01:13:11

I believe it's Isaiah chapter three that just says when women come into leadership under the theocratic nation of Israel, that's not a good thing.

01:13:19

That's not a good thing because this is a rebellious, stiff -necked people, and God is showing that he will even demonstrate his power and might even through someone like a woman, but that is a slam against men.

01:13:32

And I believe women do have a kind of authority being a saint, being given the deposit of the gospel of grace to declare to their neighbor.

01:13:43

So I just want you to know, I do see women have a kind of authority being transformed by grace.

01:13:51

All right, so would you allow Deborah, if she were around today, would you allow her to prophesy in your church?

01:13:59

You mean if she was now under the new covenant and its parameters? Sure. Well, no, she would just, the apostle

01:14:07

Paul wouldn't let her either. Would you allow Anna, the prophetess, who was in the temple all the time?

01:14:14

She only prophesied while she was in the temple. Now, obviously, it's the same question just repackaged, so I'll add a little bit more sauce to this go -around.

01:14:23

I believe women do prophesy, meaning engaging in spiritual worship, but no, Anna or Deborah would not be allowed to be an overseer and rightly handle the word from the pulpit.

01:14:34

We just keep using the pulpit term because Paul would just say, hey, this is the newer and better covenant, and this is ordained specifically for men to be pastors, to preach the word on the

01:14:44

Lord's day. So I just want to be consistent with all of God's word here. Yeah, so when we talk about the ordination of women to have authority over men, you're saying you would agree with the ordination of women as long as it's not over the authority over men.

01:15:04

She cannot fulfill the office of overseer as we see in 1 Timothy chapter 3.

01:15:10

That's for men only. Okay, so next question.

01:15:16

You've emphasized the male headship in the church home. I've argued that I feel like you've inflated that at certain times.

01:15:23

What's the word you say there? You differentiate? You distinguish? You like that term?

01:15:30

Yeah, you like that term. That's good. So let me ask you this. Drawing from Ephesians chapter 5, where it actually talks about husbands and wives in that context, and then 1

01:15:40

Timothy chapter 2, if that male headship is primarily about, according to chapter 5, about love for the women giving submission—that's their responsibility—and not superiority,

01:15:55

I think you would agree, not about superiority. They are equal in price, all right?

01:16:02

Could a woman serve as a pastor or an elder in a way that would honor that male headship still?

01:16:11

Or, for example, what if you had an all -female church?

01:16:17

There was some island in a remote place. Would you not make allowance for a woman to be—

01:16:23

So let me give you some props here. I thought this was a good question because you kind of sprinkled it in last time.

01:16:28

Number one, I think that is at least hypothetically possible, but I would say absolutely not because there are certain parameters given to a church, and within those parameters, you would have pastors, elders, overseers, and there is no exception in the

01:16:46

New Testament that the apostle Paul or anybody else would say that a woman could fulfill that role.

01:16:52

So even in a hypothesis, it couldn't exist, actually, to be an all -female church because they would not be able to fulfill the office of overseer.

01:17:03

So the body of Christ would cease to exist? I mean,

01:17:08

Christ said, my church will prevail over the gates of hell, so I'm saying the question you're positing is why not?

01:17:15

It wouldn't happen. All right. I would disagree with that.

01:17:22

So you wouldn't allow Anna to prophesy, and you wouldn't allow

01:17:27

Deborah to prophesy. Can a woman lead worship and she have that level of authority?

01:17:35

Well, I'll address the first part of your question since you brought up Anna. You realize that's under the old covenant, right, even though it's in the

01:17:42

New Testament, right? Well, Christ was born at that point, but yes,

01:17:47

I recognize that. Thank you. I could use other examples of women who were prophesied in the

01:17:52

New Covenant as well. So I'm just using

01:17:58

Anna because that's an easy one to go back to. But you realize my position is that women prophesy in the church.

01:18:03

I don't disagree with that. I don't think that means that that gives them justification to be an ordained pastor or to fill the office of overseer.

01:18:12

That is the crux of our argument. Everything you're asking me dances around that. Yeah, correct.

01:18:17

I think at the end of the day, it would seem like—you clarified this for me—that our difference is what it means to be called of God.

01:18:26

You think that it has to do with this actual title that you've narrowly defined. That doesn't represent my position.

01:18:36

I don't think I'm narrowly defining anything. I really think I'm letting the words of Paul speak for themselves, and me and you have a hermeneutical difference when it comes to understanding the husband of one wife.

01:18:49

I don't look at that as a principle of two people or a principle of monogamy. Even if it's the principle of monogamy, it proves my position that only a male can fit this definition.

01:19:01

He's not to have multiple wives. You say there's this principle, mutual submission of love, that a woman can fulfill.

01:19:10

I'm saying you've not dealt with the exegesis of that text. All right, so let me ask you a question.

01:19:18

Is a woman permitted to teach men outside of the church? We see an example in Acts where Priscilla teaches

01:19:27

Apollos, and I would say that is mutual authority, mutual submission on both parts, iron sharpening iron, the body of Christ growing in truth.

01:19:38

That is not as the office of overseer in the local church. It is a position of authority, and to some level

01:19:49

God calls her to it. Mutual authority, right? Brothers and sisters in Christ talking about the word, absolutely. Yeah.

01:19:55

Okay, well, I appreciate that you mentioned mutual authority. In that vein, I mentioned earlier, how do you interact with the idea that there are the different spheres, obviously, that God set up?

01:20:08

You've talked a lot about the family, and as a sphere of authority, there's a way that's supposed to be done.

01:20:15

In the church, there are certain ways. Now, even government, like Deborah was a judge, that was a political position, not just a spiritual one.

01:20:26

It dipped into both spheres to some extent, but maybe explain your position in terms of dealing with those different spheres so I can get some clarity on where you're at.

01:20:38

Thank you for the question. Yeah, I would just say, when we look at all the Scripture, it's a matter of God's design from creation that men and women are created differently, but we are co -image bearers of God.

01:20:55

I'm trying to think how Peter says it in 1 Peter 3, but we are co -heirs of grace. We are saved the same way, but we have a fundamental different design.

01:21:05

And what we're debating is about who gets to rightly handle the word on the

01:21:11

Lord's day that is being ordained as an overseer, pastor, elder. And Paul tells us very clearly,

01:21:18

Jared, that he does not permit a woman, not just a wife in the sphere of the family, but this is a shared principle from the family and the ecclesiology, the structure of the church, that she is not to teach and exercise authority in that way.

01:21:32

Now, when you bring up Deborah, I just want to remind people, and perhaps yourself, that that is an allowance that God made under the old covenant.

01:21:40

And so I recognize that, but I also recognize what Isaiah says of saying that's actually a slap in the face against men, because it was men that are called to lead the nation of Israel, kings, so forth.

01:21:54

And so, yeah, we see an allowance of that under the old covenant where we don't see an allowance. And maybe you can point to something

01:22:02

I've not considered in the new covenant where you see a woman clearly defined as the office of overseer expounding sound doctrine and exegeting scripture.

01:22:18

I want to see it. I don't know how much time I have left, but I have a minute and a half question.

01:22:24

Okay, one more question, then. At what level do you believe a woman could perform the functions of an overseer or a deacon or a pastor?

01:22:36

So, being pastoral, could they serve some kind of pastoral role, and what would the limitations be within that?

01:22:47

You ready for this? No, she couldn't serve a pastoral role. I'm talking about the functions.

01:22:54

I'm talking about the functions of the pastoral role. Yeah, no, I think we're talking past each other, because I think what women are called to, sisters in Christ, they're called—Titus chapter 2 really lays this out there to teach younger women how to love their husbands, how to take care of the home, and they specialize in these areas.

01:23:12

But I would say that's a conflate—this is where I think it's conflating terms is to call that pastoral. Pastoral duties is very specific to the overseer and elder, which

01:23:22

Paul says is reserved for men only. All right.

01:23:30

Have you completed? Good. Okay. All right. Well, Jared—I'm sorry,

01:23:36

Jeremiah, you now have 12 minutes to cross -examine Jared K.

01:23:41

Henry. All right. 1 Corinthians 14, starting verse 30 says,

01:23:49

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission—in the

01:23:59

Greek word next is kathos, just as the same way the law also says.

01:24:06

So my first question is, where in the law, literally Torah, does it tell us who is able to teach in the tabernacle?

01:24:17

Well, I think that you're making an argument here in the context is about orderly worship, and so I think the law talks about that orderly worship as well.

01:24:25

But I'm asking you a specific question, Jared. So I tried to word these questions to hopefully get a kind of pithy response, and obviously

01:24:34

I don't want to purposely just interrupt you, but listen to what I'm asking, okay? Where in the law—I know we have a different understanding of the context, 1

01:24:42

Corinthians 14—but my question is, where in the law does it tell us who is able to teach in the tabernacle?

01:24:49

That's what I'm after. I don't know that that's what that's trying to say.

01:24:57

But that's not my question. My question is very— So I'm saying it's an unfair question. Well, that's in your opinion, but you can tell me you don't know, okay?

01:25:07

Where in the law does it tell us who is able to teach in the tabernacle? Interact with that question, please, not something else.

01:25:14

I'm not sure. Okay, in Leviticus 10, we read this. When you go into the tent of meeting—so we get the tabernacle language, the language of the temple here—teach the people of Israel all the statutes of the

01:25:30

Lord that has been spoken to them by Moses. Do you know who the Lord is speaking to here in Leviticus 10?

01:25:38

I do not. It would be Aaron. So my next question is, what was the position that God appointed

01:25:45

Aaron to serve the people of Israel? Do you remember? Aaron was of the tribe of Levi, so he was a high priest.

01:25:52

Yes, great answer. He was a Levitical priest, and he was specifically the first high priest.

01:25:59

My next question, could women serve as Levitical priests in order to teach the law?

01:26:07

There was a prohibition against Levitical women or women at all being

01:26:14

Levitical priests. So does that mean that women have to take—under the old covenant, did women have to take the submissive role of learning quietly when a

01:26:25

Levitical priest was teaching the law of the Lord to Israel? I think this is about the law, not about the

01:26:31

Levitical priests, and I think it's borrowed from your—you mentioned earlier, that's old covenant.

01:26:37

We don't have Levitical priests. I'm not a Levitical priest. You're not a Levitical priest. It doesn't have any bearing on those who are called of God today to serve in a position of authority.

01:26:49

I'm asking you a specific question, and I'm actually—even though we're talking about different covenants, we can actually talk about things of continuity, which a lot of your questions have had, which

01:26:58

I'm asking here. So under the old covenant, did women have to take the submissive role of learning quietly when a

01:27:06

Levitical priest was teaching the law to the Israelites? The Levitical priests were men.

01:27:14

It doesn't say all that you're reading into it. No, I'm asking you a question. I'm asking you a question.

01:27:20

Your question—no, it doesn't say what you just said. It does not. Okay, so you deny that women were to be submissive in learning quietly when a

01:27:32

Levitical priest was expounding on the law. So you would reject that they were learning submissively, just to be clear.

01:27:39

No, I'm not denying that. I'm not denying your interpretation that 1

01:27:45

Corinthians chapter 14— No, no, no, no, I'm answering your question. No, you're not. 1 Corinthians chapter 14—the law is not a reference to Levitical priesthood.

01:27:54

He's talking about order and discernment. If anything, there's a reference to prophet. So there are female prophets in the

01:28:02

Old Testament. You're supposed to answer my question, so let's get some clarity. I did. Okay, but let me try to get clarity.

01:28:07

If you could answer it more concise, the way that I'm asking it. Did women have to take the submissive learning role when a

01:28:15

Levitical priest was teaching the law? All people did.

01:28:21

Anyone listening needed to listen and learn. Oh, is that a yes? No, I gave you my answer.

01:28:30

Okay, I appreciate it. So did that apply to just married women? It applied to all people, regardless of marital status or gender.

01:28:40

There you go. There you go. All women had to submissively learn. My next question is, are you familiar with the Greek word gune?

01:28:48

No. Okay, this is the Greek word that we can translate either wife or woman.

01:28:54

Does that sound familiar, or do you want to take my word for it? Yeah. If you would, please read to me

01:29:01

Ephesians 5 .22. As I take a sip of coffee. Just read it whenever you're able to pull it up.

01:29:15

5 .22. Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. So in this verse, do you know where the

01:29:20

Greek word idios is located? I don't have the Greek in front of me.

01:29:26

Okay, but so when you see the word your own, own husbands in the

01:29:32

Greek, that is idios. So do you agree that idios shows ownership or possession, especially in the context that we read in English here?

01:29:42

That the woman has ownership over her husband? It's her husband, right? And not just any generic man, but she possesses a particular person.

01:29:51

He, she, this is not a call for her to submit to men in general. Every man, but one person she belongs and she has one husband.

01:29:59

Do you agree that idios is to show ownership in that context? It seems to be, yeah.

01:30:05

Okay, so idios in the context, do you agree that that informs us how to interpret gounikos, which is wives?

01:30:14

But once again, context has to show us that we're going to translate it woman or wife. Do you agree that idios tells us that this word is meant to be wives?

01:30:26

The ownership? Right, it can't just be any general women submit to any general man.

01:30:32

The, the ownership idios tells us how to interpret gounikos, which is wives. Do you agree?

01:30:39

But yeah, he's speaking specifically to wives. Let them know what their role is. I just wanted to, right. I just want to kind of like, so, right.

01:30:46

So come with me now to 1st Timothy 2 .12. We're here. We read,

01:30:52

I do not permit a gouniki. So it's the same gounikos, the word where we get either wife or woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain silent.

01:31:04

My question is, can you show me in the context where we see idios here? I think you told me that the other day that that word for woman was never translated as wife.

01:31:16

No, you challenged me to show you a translation where it was translated as a wife.

01:31:22

My point was that none of them do. Cause I was going to be saying, yeah, good luck with that task because none of them do because they recognize the context.

01:31:32

So my question here is we're reading woman translated here. It can be translated wife depending on the context, but can you show me anywhere here where idios is in the

01:31:44

Greek? I don't have the Greek in front of me. Right. Well, let me give you a tidbit here.

01:31:50

It ain't there, right? So this, do you agree that this is good evidence that woman here is not being referred to as wife?

01:31:59

I'm not, I'm not making an argument for that necessarily. I can't,

01:32:04

I'm not sure where you're going. Right. Well, I'll back it down. So if it was talking about wives in this context, we would see ownership of some kind.

01:32:13

So if it were talking, Paul would be very clear. If he was talking about a wife, he would say, I do not permit a wife to teach or exercise authority over her husband or her showing ownership with idios.

01:32:25

We don't see that there, but are you insisting that woman here still referred to as a wife?

01:32:33

No, I'm not insisting that. I'm insisting that, that Paul is speaking to a specific scenario that, um, that he is addressing with cultural issues.

01:32:45

That's why previously he addressed his thing. I have another question about that,

01:32:51

Jared, but just to be clear, you're saying, yeah, this is not referring to wives. This is referring to cultural issues with women in general.

01:33:00

I think I'm rightly understanding you there because you have no ownership to show that this is specifically talking about wives.

01:33:06

Are we on the same page? Correct. All right. My next question is here in 1

01:33:11

Timothy chapter two, Paul is instructing men and women to have self -control in the church.

01:33:17

Do you agree? Where are you at now? I didn't hear the reference. Yeah. So kind of in verse nine, uh, we see the reference to self -control, but do you, do you agree that Paul is instructing both men and women to have self -control in the church?

01:33:31

Do you agree? Sure. Okay. So do men and women still have to exercise self -control in the church today?

01:33:40

Sure. Okay. So does that mean you agree that there's nothing unique here that would be first century emphasis, but is a universal principle for all time?

01:33:52

Well, unless you're forbidding braided hair, I don't, I don't agree that it's a universal principle for all time.

01:33:59

Yeah. Yeah. Let's spend our last minute and a half. You brought this up. Yeah. Oh, I'm familiar with the context here.

01:34:06

So do you think that this, let me ask you this. Do you think Paul is literally forbidding the braiding or hair, or do you think he's forbidding the attitude to put on a show, to turn heads, to draw focus on yourself?

01:34:19

Help me out here. That's, that's my exact hermeneutic that you're using right there.

01:34:25

You just don't universally apply it in the passage. You only, you will only apply it to the braided hair.

01:34:31

Hey, do you know why? Let me ask you this, Jared. What's my argument for why I universally apply it to all times rather than localize?

01:34:38

What's my argument? Can you answer that question? No, no. No, no.

01:34:47

But this is me asking you a question. It's my time to control. What is my argument for why this is not just a localized event, but Paul is saying something that universally applies to all men.

01:34:57

What is my argument from the context? Your argument is that, that there, there is the people should operate with.

01:35:05

I think self -control is the word that you use. Yeah, right there. Yeah. Self -control.

01:35:12

But he, then he, then he details what that is. Part of what that mean has to do with their braided hair and their goal.

01:35:18

Yeah, that's disrespectful. But if somebody did braid their hair in such a way to draw attention because it's a heart issue, do you think we would discipline them?

01:35:29

I don't know what you would do. Yeah, I think we would discipline them because don't you think that Paul is addressing the heart attitude here?

01:35:36

That's my question. And I think a woman speaking in church in an inappropriate way should also be kind.

01:35:44

What was your question? Well, we are out of time, brothers, for that 12 minute session. And we are going to our final commercial break.

01:35:53

When we return, each of our debaters, beginning with Jared K. Henry, the

01:35:59

Nazarene, will start with an eight minute closing remark, followed by Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, the

01:36:07

Reformed Baptist, giving his eight minute closing remark. So please don't go away.

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01:42:43

Welcome back. We are now returning to the final segment of today's debate, which is day number two of the two -day debate we began yesterday on the thesis that women may be ordained into positions of authority over men in Christ's church.

01:43:03

And Nazarene Pastor Jared K. Henry has been affirming that thesis statement, and Jeremiah Nortier, the

01:43:12

Reformed Baptist, has been denying that thesis. And now we will begin with Jared Henry's eight -minute closing remark.

01:43:22

You may begin, sir. All right. Throughout our debate,

01:43:27

I've sought to simply show that Scripture does allow for recognizing the call of God on women in ministry leadership, and that that's been true biblically both in the

01:43:40

Old and the New Testament. And while there are passages that seem to say things contrary when they are taken in their context historically and the full, broad

01:43:53

Scripture, to adhere to those verses, you have to reject—and that's what

01:44:02

Jeremiah has done—you have to reject every other example that is given and alluded to in Scripture of any woman prophesying in life of the church.

01:44:13

I gave examples like Deborah's role as judge and prophetess. That was disregarded because it was

01:44:19

Old Testament. Though Jeremiah uses Old Testament to bolster his point, Phoebe's service as a deacon, that one is rejected because he says, even though the term for office of deacon and deacon are the same word, and other people are referred to as deacon with that word in this particular case because it's a female, it simply can't be in Romans chapter 16.

01:44:46

Anna, the prophetess, that comes under the Old Testament. Apparently, she was still under the Old Covenant, so that's not legitimate either.

01:44:54

But there's also Philip's daughters in Acts chapter 21. This is under the New Covenant.

01:45:00

God anointed them, and they were prophets, prophetesses. First Corinthians chapter 11 verse 5 refers to wives praying and prophesying in the life of the church.

01:45:13

And so, this is not about domineering feminists, but spirit -filled women called of God.

01:45:21

So, I'm unwilling to limit the Spirit's work among the people of God today, even in leadership in the life of the church.

01:45:29

If God's told them, then I think we've got to take note of it and allow them to really recognize them in their position that they serve.

01:45:41

So, Pastor Jeremiah leaned on some passages, 1 Timothy chapter 2 and in Corinthians, and argued for male -only leadership in the church.

01:45:53

I've tried to show that those passages need to be taken in context, that there's a broader meaning and historical context to them, that we need to take into consideration culturally and historically to address those specific issues.

01:46:10

And Jeremiah acknowledged that as well. He's used my hermeneutic in some places, like women wearing gold or pearls or braiding their hair, and even speaking.

01:46:22

He disregards the prohibition for them to speak because he gives them the ability to speak in certain places, but just limits it in other places.

01:46:32

So, the Spirit, I believe, equips all believers, men and women, with gifts that include teaching and leading, and that ultimately edify the church.

01:46:45

1 Corinthians chapter 12 affirms that these spiritual gifts are for all people, and to restrict women from these places of God called, even if they're in authority over men in those places.

01:46:58

I think to restrict women in that case is to quench the Spirit at work in our world today and in the life of the church, and ultimately hinder our ability to more effectively fulfill the

01:47:10

Great Commission. So, I would like the audience to just consider if God gifted women and used and put them in places of authority and gave them leadership and spoke through them, like Deborah, like Hannah, like Philip's daughter, like many others, and even throughout history from the time of the

01:47:28

New Testament to the current day, and has anointed them to lead their fruit and their life.

01:47:34

If they have the gifts of the Spirit, and Scripture gives us evidence of this in these authoritative roles, then we can't be as confident as my brother

01:47:46

Jeremiah is about the fact that he's saying God opposes their ordination today.

01:47:52

I don't think we can do that. And I suggest we trust the work of the Holy Spirit, take Scripture in its entirety and all of the examples without being dismissive of them, and embrace it.

01:48:04

So, with that, I'll secede the rest of my time, although I will say a thank you to Chris and to Brother Jeremiah.

01:48:12

He's been a bit feisty a few times. He luckily finished and answered questions today, but I appreciate that.

01:48:18

But I'll secede the rest of my time. Thank you. And now, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, you have eight minutes.

01:48:26

Well, it's true. I get a little feisty sometimes. But I appreciate you, Jared. And I learned a little bit from your perspective, and I think maybe

01:48:34

I cleared up some of my perspective as well. So, I think that's the whole point of being on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:48:41

Now, I want to begin by saying I think both of us were trying to examine context,

01:48:48

Old and New Testament. Let's just be honest. Me and you just have disagreements at the end of the day.

01:48:54

Now, you said something. I actually want to find a little bit of agreement here. Now, I think you said this pretty clearly, and you said, you know, my position that says women are not to be ordained pastors of the office of overseer, elder, as I understand that.

01:49:10

You said that perhaps we are quenching the Spirit, those who hold that view.

01:49:15

You implied it, maybe. And I want to agree with you that if I'm wrong on this position, I am most definitely quenching the

01:49:21

Spirit. God knows my heart. I would never want to willingly do that. This is just the way that I see it. But I want to flip the script,

01:49:30

Jared. I want to say that if you are wrong—let's say I'm wrong—that when I read that the office of overseer is for males, those who are the husband of one wife, reading the

01:49:42

Apostle Paul saying, I did not permit a woman to teach in the church context, in the context of exegeting the

01:49:48

Scripture, to the reading, to the exhortation, and to ultimately the didacticus, the teaching there, sound doctrine, if Paul is saying that that is reserved for men only, then,

01:50:03

Jared, I believe you are not only quenching the Spirit, but I think you are promoting the same lie that Satan tempted

01:50:11

Eve with. Now, let me explain, because women are beautiful made in the image of God, but by design, they are different than men.

01:50:20

That's why in the home, women are to reflect the gospel in terms of submission. My view would say women are to continue to represent the submissive role in submitting to their elders that are male.

01:50:35

I don't think I'm conflating those. I just think those share a common principle, and Paul uses a reason of design for both marriage and in the church.

01:50:45

Now, Jared, if you're wrong, then you're doing the same thing that Satan said, that said to Eve, hey, you can do this thing.

01:50:53

Did God really say, was he really clear when he said don't do this certain command? You can do it.

01:50:59

In fact, you can have more knowledge like God. Now, notice Satan didn't go to the federal head. Adam, he went to second in command.

01:51:05

He went to the helpmate, the one that is in the submissive role, and she usurped

01:51:11

Adam's federal head over her, his male authority over her, and she listened to the enemy.

01:51:18

I want everyone to realize that if Jared's wrong, he's telling all women that feel empowered to some degree, and you can just say, well,

01:51:25

God gave me this feeling that I can do this, then that's the same wise Satan. And Paul would say, listen,

01:51:31

I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet.

01:51:39

What is that context? What he tells us in the next chapter, he gets into the qualifications of what it means to be an overseer, a pastor, and an elder, and it's not for women.

01:51:51

So I just want people to recognize that. It's interesting, you know, he says basically that I'm picking and choosing when it comes to the

01:51:58

Old Testament. No, no, no, no. First Corinthians 14 appeals to the law. You can't just wave the hand, and that means to be orderly.

01:52:06

No, we're in the Torah. Do we see this model, the shared model of consistency where women are to be quiet and submissive in learning?

01:52:16

I know you didn't like the cross -examination where I asked you about the Levitical priesthood because they are the ones that were commissioned to expound and teach the law.

01:52:27

I think Jared felt what I was doing, which is showing the consistency between old and new on this particular point.

01:52:34

And it's the Old Testament that God did call Deborah to be a judge, but Isaiah 3 says that is to the judgment of the men in Israel, not leading the nation and not leading the women.

01:52:48

So God gets his will done even with disobedient, stiff -necked people. And so what

01:52:53

I want to show in the new covenant, the better covenant, by the way, is we do not see that example. And listen to me,

01:53:00

Jared. I think that there is a shared principle of prophecy. I went to so many scriptures to show that prophecy means to declare truth.

01:53:08

It's in the context of worship. Women not only did that in the old covenant, but in Acts, I was all for quoting

01:53:17

Acts 2 and acknowledging Philip's daughters and even showing how there's certain contexts like with Priscilla teaching,

01:53:24

I would even say, prophecy, declaring truth, showing a more accurate way of the Holy Spirit to Apollos.

01:53:30

I recognize all of that. None of those examples contradict what Paul says in 1

01:53:35

Timothy 2 and 3. These are not ordained women as pastors, overseers in the church.

01:53:42

And so I just want people to understand, he is taking the word prophecy and he's running with it, and he's stuffing a whole lot of definitions in there that don't even bear out in the

01:53:50

Greek lexicon, not even in the functional application in the book of Acts and the epistles.

01:53:57

I don't discount Deborah and Anna and other women that were prophetesses and prophesying.

01:54:05

My whole case was women have always been able to engage in worship and declare truth. What he's not doing well, in my opinion, and just those positions that share an egalitarianism, and I do think these are principles of feminism, however he would reject that in name,

01:54:23

I'm saying you have to deal with the exegesis of 1 Timothy 2 and 3, 1

01:54:28

Corinthians 11, all the way into chapter 14. It's funny because he said that he felt like I took his hermeneutic that he was using because I would somehow allow women with braided hair.

01:54:39

Well, I would actually say me and you have a different hermeneutic because that is a wooden hermeneutic to say that Paul is saying that women can't ever braid their hair.

01:54:48

He even tells us to wear respectable apparel. Can you braid your hair in a respectable way?

01:54:55

Yes, but he is saying they are doing it in a way that does not exercise self -control, and so I would say this, whatever we land on that context, we agree probably that Paul is speaking to the heart of the matter.

01:55:10

Certain women that are drawing attention to themselves, and these are the same liberated women saying,

01:55:15

I am so free in Christ that I don't have to listen to any man. Well, the problem is

01:55:20

Paul quickly says, listen, the role for not just a wife but a woman in general in the church is to learn quietly with all submissiveness, and he makes this point rooted in creation, and so we love women.

01:55:37

I married one, in fact. Women are beautiful. They are to reflect the gospel in a submissive way.

01:55:44

And so it's not a bad thing to say that women are not ordained pastors. I just, that's what

01:55:49

God's word clearly says. I want you to just, kind of as the final words, listen to how indefensible the thesis is that we heard today.

01:55:58

So what Jared had to defend is the ordination of women. Can women have positions of authority over men in Christ's church?

01:56:08

All I have to do is read one single verse and just show how the context only reinforces this.

01:56:14

I, Paul, do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain silent.

01:56:20

Thank y 'all so much for your attention. Okay, we have enough time for just two quick questions with quick answers.

01:56:29

We have Jubilee in Duval, Washington, who directs a question to Jeremiah Nortier.

01:56:37

I believe you are overly restrictive when you describe the role of older women teaching younger women to merely just teaching them how to be better wives, mothers, and housekeepers, which are important things.

01:56:52

But I firmly believe they have the freedom also, and perhaps even a duty, to teach them doctrinal truths when they are not teaching men.

01:57:02

Can you respond? Yes, so it sounds like this person would probably not be a big fan of what

01:57:12

Paul actually says in Titus chapter 2. So, older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to one.

01:57:23

They are to teach what is good. Well, number one, there's a standard of teaching.

01:57:29

We go to God's Word, and so I never said that they can't be theologians. And rightly, handling the

01:57:34

Word of God in certain contexts. This person, like Jared, misses the core of the debate.

01:57:40

We're talking about who can fulfill the office of overseer the way that Paul told us.

01:57:45

But Paul here in Titus 2 goes on. So, train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self -control, pure, working at home, kind, submissive to their own husbands, that the

01:57:58

Word of God may not be reviled. And so, yes, I think women are to be theologians. I think they should know theology so well that it flows out of their fingertips, practically, into the life.

01:58:10

And that is the kind of life -on -life teaching and discipleship that they should be pouring in to younger women to model their lives to the glory of God.

01:58:18

Okay. Okay, we have for Jared K. Henry, Burke in Toronto, Canada, wants to know,

01:58:25

I still don't understand how you could take your position without believing that wives can not submit to their husbands.

01:58:39

Well, I think that that's a different subject altogether. So, you're talking about the sphere of the family makeup in the home versus the makeup of the church or government or some other sphere of life.

01:58:54

So, I would say I think someone could be an egalitarian or a complementarian.

01:59:01

Whether or not I agree with those positions in the family is, in some ways, unrelated to the authority in the life of the church.

01:59:11

Okay, let me make sure that our listeners have your websites. Jared K. Henry's website is mackeynaz .org,

01:59:19

M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org. And Jeremiah Nortier's website is 12fivechurch .com.

01:59:28

That's the word 12, the number five, church .com. Thank you, gentlemen, for doing such an extraordinary job.

01:59:35

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you to have a wonderful, safe, and joyful, and Christ -honoring

01:59:41

Weekend in the Lord's Day. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater