The Truth About Centering Prayer - Why It's Not Biblical

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It's time another edition of fighting for the faith

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Monday, October 10th, 2011 I Am so tempted to have today's edition be like dedicated to one topic

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There is I'm gonna tell you right at the beginning here that there's a chance that we will not discuss anything else except for this

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One topic today and like not even do a sermon review Thank you for tuning in you're listening to fighting for the faith

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My name is Chris Roseboro and I am your servant in Jesus Christ And this is the program that dishes up a daily dose of biblical discernment the goal of which help you to think

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Biblically help you to think critically and to help you compare what people are saying in the name of God to the

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Word of God There is no Shortage of crazy things being said out there as a result We have got to do the comparative work and ask the question is what we're being taught or what you're being taught in your church

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Really what the Bible teaches or is it something else? Is your is your pastor rightly handling

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God's Word or is he just? Well teaching something that's really odd or foreign to God's Word I mean we live in a time where people think that they can modify the approach to how

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Christianity is to make it palpable and Appealing to the culture.

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Well, the culture is gone very mystical and very Gnostic mysticism is a key component of the post -modern worldview and As a result of it the church in there in there ever so a vigilant striving to be relevant in say to the culture

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Oh, oh, oh, we've got we've we you want mystical experiences. Well, we've got that we've got that look we can go back to you know

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Medieval Catholicism and and and come up with mystical practices so that you can you can experience the

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Of Jesus, you know Yeah, anyway That yeah, we got a problem you kid that mysticism is not compatible with biblical

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Christianity And we're gonna spend some we're gonna spend a lot of time on today's edition of fighting for the faith looking at this now

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If you were listening to last Friday's episode of fighting for the faith I highlighted the fact that the the pastors .com

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website This would be the website that features what is called Rick Warren's ministry toolbox last

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Sunday on October 2nd they put out a resource called centering prayer trust

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Jesus brings transformation and Spent some time basically walking through that and what

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I want to do today is is walk through the opening part of that And basically show you

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We're gonna we're gonna take a journey if you would we're going to go to a Cistercian Monastery We're gonna visit some trap a

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Trappist monk today and and hear from him regarding centering prayer why well

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If you remember when we talked about this last week the the article mentions the fact that there were three

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Cistercian monks who in the 60s and 70s who Developed this thing called centering prayer.

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And so, you know rather than you know going with the cheap knockoff We thought we'd go right to the source to the brand itself and spend some time with you today

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Basically letting you hear from the monks mouth what it is. That's Centering prayer is all about and what the spiritual goal is and then what

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I'll be doing to provide the counterpoint the last word on this is gonna go to a gal by the name of Of Marsha Montenegro Marsha Montenegro had spent some time in the

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New Age and she wrote an article back in 2005 entitled contemplating contemplative prayer.

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Is it really prayer? And so I'm going to read her journal article from 2005

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The Midwest Christian, you know, I forget that the whole I'll have to look this up and get the whole name of it

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But it's Midwest Christian something Journal anyway, we're gonna be reading her article that she wrote about this and give you well basically, she's a

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Christian apologist who deals with the New Age and in give her the last word if you would at least from her expertise on the subject, but so That's what we're gonna do today.

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Now at the opening of the program. I said I I reserve the right to only have this be the one topic we deal with today rather than doing a sermon review and having this be a normal edition of fighting for the faith reason being is is that what

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I'm trying to do is put together a Make this as a standalone mp3 file that people can go to and the reason being is because that That article that was posted at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox as well

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It's disappeared Apparently. Yeah, so we're gonna talk about that here in a second. So This is not going to be a normal edition of fighting for the faith.

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It's not a light edition, but You know what? I would strongly recommend

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Taking notes on this edition of fighting for the faith Which means fuzzy bunny slippers and adult beverages probably would distract from what needs to Be accomplished in the work that needs to be done on this edition of fighting for the faith

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I don't you know, I can't remember the last time I invoked anything of that nature, but this is important This is super important.

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So let's dive into the program proper and let's talk about the topic. Yeah There's our centering prayer music

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This is from the New Age Merlin's magic chakra meditation music heart of Reiki, okay

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It's driving me nuts I'm getting sleepy Anyway, sorry.

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Sorry. Yeah Need to pick some better New Age music. Okay, so here's the deal Let let me remind you of what happened last week last week at Rick Warren's pastors .com

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Website from the Rick Warren ministry toolbox an article was posted entitled centering prayer trust

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Jesus brings transformation This was written by a gal who? well, let's just say that there's good reason to suspect that she's a pastrix a you know and she so she's the one who actually wrote this but The Rick Warren ministry toolbox

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Twitter account tweeted out a link to it In the name of centering prayer trust

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Jesus now, I want to read to you not the how -to but where this gal

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Stacey Smith claims this all came from and we're gonna ask a couple of you know, kind of hard -hitting questions up front as we then as we then

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Wander into the history of this and let those who let one man who is responsible for developing this

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Speak for himself as to what this thing is all about So Stacey Smith writing at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox pastors .com

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writes a healthy spiritual life is an important part of overall wellness and active and healthy faith life means that we are concerned with something larger than Ourselves.

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It also means most often that we are part of a community of people with similar beliefs and priorities to ours, but we sometimes become bored with our normal spiritual routine and One way to add something different to our faith life is to try a practice called centering prayer

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So if you're bored, I mean seriously, I mean, let me give you let me give you a metaphor that this would make sense

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Are you bored with your spiritual life? Well, have you tried the Ouija board? Yeah the Ouija board I mean that's super exciting stuff and you and when it's all said and done

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I mean your life won't be boring it boring anymore You'll probably have a demon living in your home Wreaking all kind of havoc and just making your life of all your home a veritable haunted house if you would so So are you bored with your life?

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Try centering prayer? It's it basically it's akin to taking up the Ouija board, you'll find out why here in a minute, but You know the article continues a centering prayer is an ancient

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Yeah is an ancient form of prayer. That is a combination of prayer and meditation

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The practice was revived in the 1960s and 70s by three

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Cistercian monks The practice of centering prayer allows for the recognition of thoughts and gently releases them into the hands of God This is a form of prayer that relies on awareness that the

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Holy Spirit resides in the one who prays Connecting them heart to heart with God boy.

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Is that? That's a carefully crafted sentence, let me just put it this way yeah, when you find out this idea that the

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Holy Spirit resides in the one who prays and what that really means and Connecting you heart to heart with God and what that really means

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You're gonna be basically asking why on earth would Rick Warren's ministry toolbox ever publish an article like this now

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This is a valid question. And so just so you know the three Cistercian monks who are credited with Reviving this so -called ancient practice.

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They are Thomas Keating Basil Pennington and William Menninger Yeah, those those so if you know somebody who's really into Thomas Keating Basil Pennington or William Menninger Yeah, their chances are that they're dabbling in this stuff.

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And this is the this is the prayer equivalent of the Ouija board That's again. That's how dangerous this stuff is and you're gonna find out exactly why so what

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I thought I would do is You know, let's dig up some resources. Let's Let's let one of the three men who's responsible for reviving this ancient practice supposedly a form of prayer and meditation

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Combo of the two let him speak for himself. Let him be the one that teaches us this

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So here's the deal anybody who's read this article at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox

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Which by the way, the article itself has mysteriously disappeared with no explanation no explanation whatsoever now

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I'm used to playing this cat -and -mouse game with The folks there at Saddleback Church and that are associated with Rick Warren one of the things

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I've noticed over the years of basically covering the weird things that Rick Warren is up to is that when push comes to shove and it ends up that well, yeah, he starts getting bad press or complaints from people regarding ministry resources that have appeared at his his website pastors calm or Videos that appeared on YouTube or things like that when when those people who are discernment bloggers

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Of course, those are people who just you know, they don't have a life. They live in their mom's basement These are people according to them who you know, they are naked on a beanbag eating

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Cheetos They you know, these are just disgruntled terrible people who never have a valid point there's no such thing as a valid critic in the world of the purpose -driven movement, but Anyway, when when when they start shining the light of truth on the things that are being posted

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In Rick Warren's name or that have his name associated with it If it starts to hurt them in a public relations kind of way those

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Resources have a bad habit of just whoosh, you know disappearing and so over the years

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I've learned a technique and that is is that anything that that's associated with Rick Warren that you know is heretical that You know that as soon as you sign shine the light on it has a chance of disappearing

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You make sure you make copies of it. You take screenshots and yeah, I did all of that already

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So yeah, but see here's the deal one of the things I've noticed about you know

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Rick Warren is is that the folks there at pastors comm do not practice what we would call best practices in Responsible journalism and what

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I mean by that is this is that you know regardless of which media sources you prefer to read or watch whether it be

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Fox News MSNBC the New York Times or world net daily or things like that responsible professional journalism oftentimes a

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Journalist will get something wrong. They will they will say something that isn't in accord with the actual facts

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They'll say something that isn't quite right or they missed a nuance as a result of it in their reporting

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They don't they're not exactly They didn't actually tell the truth And so it's it's very very very very common if you you know read any of these papers to see from time to time something called a retraction or Or an edit or you know, they'll put a post together that says

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This journalist said this in this article and upon further investigation. We found that this is not exactly true

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Here's what he should have said or here's what the the actual evidence demonstrates. And so this is officially a retraction.

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Okay The folks over there at pastors comm they don't seem to issue very many

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Retractions. In fact, I having a hard time recalling any time that they did so here's the deal This is that I'm glad that they pulled the centering prayer article down but There was no explanation given so we don't know if the reason why they pulled the centering prayer article down is because they realized whoa, that's not

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Christianity or If they did it for self -preservation reasons because they were they were getting beat up on the internet as a result of it and so they pulled it down as a means of spin control

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And so but here's the deal if they were engaging in responsible journalism

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Then they they have to they must issue a retraction

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In fact, I'm gonna issue a challenge to Rick Warren right here and right now Rick you need to have the folks there your pastors comm

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Rick Warren ministry toolbox post an explanation as to why you pulled that article if The reason why you pulled the article was because centering prayer is not compatible with biblical

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Christianity Then we need to hear that from you guys You know, you need to explain the dangers of centering prayer and how this is not not not

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Compatible with biblical Christianity and so until they do that Then we

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I think we must all just assume that the reason they pulled this down just like other things that they've pulled down off Their website was really just nothing more than political spin control

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It's a matter of brand management if you would of the seeker driven purpose true of the purpose driven

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Rick Warren brand That's gonna be my assumption until they prove otherwise by issuing a full -blown

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Retraction as well as an explanation and warning regarding the dangers of contemplative prayer and centering prayer

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Okay, so that just that's just kind of Walking you through here. So now let's kind of come back.

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Let's circle back and let's talk about okay Remember in the article itself, which I just read from my copy of it, which

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I of course You know I took screenshots of it because I've learned over the years that things have way of just whoosh disappearing from Rick Warren's ministry toolbox

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But the the gal who wrote that Stacy Smith pointed out that there were three Cistercian monks these

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Who developed Contemplative prayer and when you do the research you find out who they were.

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They are Thomas Keating Basil Pennington and William Menninger.

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These are the guys who Developed centering prayer now that being the case.

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I think it's important for us to let Well to let

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Thomas Keating himself explain to us You know what's going on what's what's the fruit of this

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Centering prayer. What what's the worldview that we need to understand that this is where it's leading us

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And so this is an actual YouTube video That that was put together with Thomas Keating the one of the three primary redevelopers if you would of centering prayer in the modern era

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Him explaining, you know, the kind of the spiritual understanding of what goes along with it now this audio is tough actually very difficult to understand but You know listen carefully and I'll point things out along the way.

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It's actually it's easy to understand him It's not so easy to understand the question that's being asked

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To talk about the person that's lost in the false self and you know we're trying to reach the person in the supper if that's leading the false life that thinks the car and the

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Plexus surgery will make them happy. Where is that? What is that?

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Okay now this is important the question has to do with you know describe and he's only got like two

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Three minutes to do it the spiritual journey from the false self from the mundane to the divine the false self is the one is the self that believes it would be happy with a

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New beamer and some plastic surgery Okay So that's the foil here and now

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Keating's gonna basically ask the question how much time have you got? Everyone's gonna laugh and then he's gonna start to get into His answer and I want you to listen carefully to what he believes regarding the divine

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This is critical and important because I don't think you can divorce centering prayer from this spiritual religious worldview listen carefully

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Well, have you got a few hours? Since you want a short answer

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The beginning of the spiritual journey is is the realization

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Not just the information, but a real Interior conviction that there is a

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Higher power or God Or to make it as easy as possible for everybody that there is an other capital

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O Second step. So first step on your spiritual journey is recognizing.

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There's a god or you can call him the other Capital O it's weird to me that It all the time

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I've spent hanging out with and studying Emergents up close by attending their conferences sitting down and just listening as they have their emergent

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Conversations and things like that one of the major themes of the emergent movement and the emergent movement is full blown into this postmodern mysticism is the constant reference back to recognizing

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God and the other It's weird Keating's language almost mirrors.

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There's Identically, but we continue so first step recognize that there is an other capital

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O To try to become the other Still a capital.

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Oh, okay Try to become the other Step two is to become

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God Notice what he did there. Okay, I'm gonna back this up because you folks what you've just heard is the same lie that the devil told

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Adam and Eve in the garden. Oh You will not die if you eat the fruit

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God doesn't want you to eat because he knows on the day that you eat of it. You will become like God Okay I'm surprised we don't hear a slithering sound or you know, or the sound of a

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The tongue of a snake going, you know, yeah I mean, that's how demonic this really is.

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Listen again and what you're listening for is the technique Watch what he does. He says the first step is to recognize that there's a

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God or the other and So what he does is he takes the word

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God and he puts a so -called synonym in its place So God you reckon first thing you have to recognize that there's a

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God Let me change the name of God here And what what I mean by that is you need to recognize that there is an other capital

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Oh That the reason why he's putting a substitute word in there is so that step two

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Doesn't jolt you out of your you know out of your mind and you flee the building realizing.

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Whoa. This is a satanic lie Because you know if you take if you don't take let him exchange the word

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God for the word other Step two is you need to become God Listen again watch how he does this so he takes the word

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God Exchanges it for the word other and then he says that you need to the second step of your journey of your journey is for You to learn how to become

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The other in other words you need to become God that I mean listen real

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Interior conviction that there is a Higher power or God Or to make it as easy as possible for everybody that there is an other capital

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O Yeah to make it easy as possible. That's so that you don't you don't go what you want

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I have to learn how to become God. Are you crazy see that so I know this will this will help you

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Just recognize that there's another and then step two second step To try to become the other

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So the next step is you need to try to become God still a capital

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O and finally the realization

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That there is no other You and the other are one

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So step three is for you to realize that you already are God Yeah again,

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I come back to the article from Rick Warren's ministry toolbox because Remember the language that was used in that article.

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I want to remind you of it Here we go from the second paragraph centering prayer is an ancient form of prayer.

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That is a combination of prayer and meditation The practice was revived in the 1960s and 70s by three

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Cistercian monks. They are Thomas Keating Thomas Merton and Basil Pennington the practice of centering prayer allows for the

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Recognition of thoughts and gently releases them into the hands of God this form of prayer

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Relies on the awareness that the Holy Spirit resides in the one who prays

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Connecting them heart to heart with God In other words as One of the three people who revived this practice makes it clear that understanding of heart to heart with God It's the realization that you and God are one

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That's what centering prayer really is all about we continue always have been always will be you just think that you want and that As the spiritual journey unfolds one lets go of these false beliefs in one separation from God And begins to perceive in all of events and in other people the same presence of God that one is more and more aware of in oneself at the deepest level and Thus the words of Paul become something that makes sense

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That God is all in all in other words In a sense we not only become

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God, but are God So one of the three men who developed centering prayer you just heard him say it's this understanding

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That we are God Again let me play this for you

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Because I mean if your head is spinning and you're going what? Right, that's what's really at the heart of centering prayer the guy who developed it who designed it who?

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Reinvented it this is one of the three Yeah He makes it clear that this is all about well being

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God that means you being God no In other words in a sense we not only become

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God But our God our little local consciousness disappears

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With death because it's mostly based on the brain, but the But the consciousness of our consciousness, which is

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God within us Remains forever and so as we move into the

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God consciousness so to speak Then we perceive how

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Everything we've done that was good was not us, but God in us Serving God in other people

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God in us loving God in other people or simply God in us greeting

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God in us greeting God and other people if you've ever heard a liberal emergent talk about Discovering the

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God and the other This is where this language comes from So that folks was the well that was just the first shot

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That's the that's the one to wake you up to make you realize whoa. Holy smokes.

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There's something rotten in Denmark, right? When you hear people talk about centering prayer

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Yeah, keep in mind the guys who developed it. This is one of them. This is one of the three that developed it and The Spirituality that he's embracing is basically pantheism

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That you have a divine spark within you you are divine You are God and it's all about so step one is to recognize that there is a

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God or the other Step two is for you to try to become the other that would be

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God and step three is to recognize that there is No other that you already are God That's really what's at the heart of this practice of centering prayer

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That's the spirituality that this thing is married to and the last time

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I checked that Spirituality didn't get divorced from the practice of centering prayer now

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We're up on our first break when we come back. We're going to let Thomas Keating Tell us more from an interview that he did regarding centering prayer and have him explain for him

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You know himself what it's really all about as a resume. This is him One of the three guys who revived it him describing the practice

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I mean, this would be basically let me give you a metaphor that you can hang on to listening to Thomas Keating talk about what centering prayer is all about and what it does and the

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Spirituality that goes along with it is the equivalent of having Steve Jobs Give you an internal tour of how an

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Apple computer works Okay, so we're dealing with one of the one of the guys who knows centering prayer on the same level that that Steve Jobs understood

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Apple computer you get what I'm saying here So yeah You don't want to miss the next part of this edition of fighting for the faith if you'd like to email me regarding anything

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You've heard on this edition or any previous editions of fighting for the faith You can do so my email address talkback at fighting for the faith comm or you can ask to be my friend on Facebook It's facebook .com

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forward slash pirate Christian. You can follow me on Twitter my name there higher Christian. We'll be right back Sisyphus religiosity won't save you you're listening to fighting for the faith

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Listening to pirate Christian radio will be taking your first doctrine Marty pythons flying circus church

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So the new pastor came in and shut down the Sunday school Cancelled the adult Bible study dumped the hymnals

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Sacked the choir and put in a praise band and started preaching sermons that sound like they could be preached or done on dr

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Inquisition our chief weapon is purpose purpose and vision vision and purpose are two weapons purpose and vision and ruthless relevance are three weapons purpose vision and ruthless relevance and an almost fanatical devotion to record are four weapons now

32:11

Amongst our weaponry are such elements as purpose vision. I'll come in again. I Didn't expect a kind of purpose -driven

32:19

Inquisition Nobody expects the purpose -driven

32:26

Inquisition Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as purpose vision ruthless relevance and almost fanatical devotion to Rick Warren and nice Hawaiian I can't say it.

32:37

You have to say it. What you want to say about the bit about our chief weapons are I couldn't do that?

32:50

I didn't expect a kind of purpose -driven Inquisition Nobody Expects no nobody expects the purpose driven

33:06

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Our chief weapons are Vision Chief weapons are purpose youth pastor

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Rick read the charges Dude you're like hereby charged with being divisive and not following our program.

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Warning if you're attending a Christian church that's teaching centering prayer or the Lectio Divina mantra meditation stuff like that They're teaching you pantheism that ultimately that you are

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Fishers, Indiana zip code four six zero three eight. Okay next segment

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This is from an interview that father Thomas Keating one of the three

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Revisers or reinventors or The end the word here is animator of the practice known as centering prayer okay to say that you know anyone who would deny that father

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Keating knows about centering prayer or Somebody who says yeah father

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Keating. He doesn't know about centering prayer. It just doesn't know what they're talking about This is one of the guys that is one of the modern -day inventors of it

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He's the one who put this practice together and you heard from him already that this is all about a spiritual journey

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Where you ultimately learn that you are? God Okay So this is an interview that he did with a garrison

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Institute in October of 2008 where they interview him regarding Centering prayer.

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So here's the the modern one of the modern -day founders of this practice

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Discussing it and what's it's all about and what it does and how you do it. Here we go So tell us about centering prayer and particularly the role of centering prayer in an uncentric time

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Well, obviously Centering prayer in an unsettled time is to center

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It it's it it's a term that comes from st. John of the cross in the introduction to what he calls the living flame of love one of his most mature writings and So it comes from the

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Roman centering prayer comes from the Roman Catholic mystic st John of the cross You should already be fleeing if anyone wants to teach this to you and thinks that it's a good thing

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A bad term for what we're trying to do because as he says the center of The soul is

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God. And so as we the center of the soul is God so centering prayer is all about learning that the center of your soul is

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God leave behind the Perplexities and the suffering and the turmoil at least as an obsession or Over emphasis on it we move towards or turn towards our inmost center and we move from ordinary psychological awareness to the

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Spiritual level of our being a level of intuition and and our capacity for God St.

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Thomas uses that phrase that the soul is a certain capacity for God so that's basically what we are and So to open to this capacity we need to turn our attention from the preoccupations

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Temporarily of outside in order to get the perspective on reality

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Which has God as its center? some Theologians have said

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God is reality So not just our reality, but everything that is in the sense is

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God in the sense of coming from the ultimate reality as the source whether you consider this personal or or impersonal the ultimate reality is probably both

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Adjusts to each Thing that exists according to its nature

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So God is both personal and impersonal that sounds irrational. Don't you think but anyway as we move towards?

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the inner self one Approaches what some folks call the true self

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In the Judeo -christian tradition would be called the image of God or the image and likeness of God Imago Dei I'm the true self

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Have you heard spiritual practitioners out there? You know like in Richard Foster? Ortberg and others talking about the true self the me

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I want to be or emergent folks talking about the Imago Dei The likeness is what we don't have yet or which we lost depending on what your religious

40:57

Understanding or perhaps your scientific preference might be because In the perspective of evolution especially spiritual evolution

41:11

We are returning to our source spiritual evolution

41:20

Returning to our source. This is the talk of monism by the way Buddhists call it and this is just a private interpretation.

41:30

I hope they'll forgive me. So now he's quoting Buddhists favorably Emptiness is form and form is emptiness so in the

41:41

Trinitarian view of Christian The ultimate source of the divinity called father

41:47

Pours himself into the Sun empties himself into the Sun who is the form of all the possibilities?

41:55

Contained in the original emptiness that is always coming into actuality

42:03

Wow That's a satanic Christology if I ever heard one. Yeah, let's back the audio up on that one

42:11

Listen to what he says the father is the ultimate reality who pours himself into the

42:18

Sun Have you heard this Christology anywhere in the scriptures I mean, that's the thing that seems to be missing here

42:26

Thomas Keating, of course one of the three primary men who are responsible for reviving the so -called practice of centering prayer which evangelicals like folks at Willow Creek and Saddleback and and Others are embracing whole hog

42:45

Of course if you're just bored with your mundane day -to -day Christian life try something new try this

42:52

Well, it comes complete with a Christology And this is not a biblical

42:57

Christology. Listen again, you know, this is form and form is emptiness so in the

43:04

Trinitarian view of Christian The ultimate source of the divinity called father

43:10

Pours himself into the Sun empties himself into the Sun who is the form of all the possibilities?

43:18

contained in the original Emptiness that is always coming into actuality

43:25

And this guy doesn't sound like a Christian anything does he son returns everything he's received to the source or the father as his views and thus

43:39

Form goes back to emptiness and the Holy Spirit is the enormous love that is exchanged in the total

43:49

Self emptying of the Trinitarian relationships and celebrates infinite love or compassion or and So it is this life going on within us

44:03

That centering prayer is moving towards and so it's at movements towards the center our own center which is also the center of everything else that exists, which is the ultimate reality or What God is the label given by the

44:20

Judeo -christian? Mm -hmm. So centering moves us to the center of the ultimate reality and Christians refer to it as God, but you know, of course if you're a

44:32

Buddhist, you know, you know You don't have to think that at all I mean doesn't it sound like he's a universalist all paths lead to the top of Mount Fuji apparently

44:41

Traditions, but which could be called anything Perhaps Not be a reverend to say

44:47

God doesn't call what doesn't care what we call him. He could be butch if you want it's the faith in the

44:55

In God is the center of our being that is not only supporting us in existence, but it

45:03

Welcoming welcoming us into his Into the I should say divine hospitality that Is the only host that can give not just gifts but itself to us

45:18

Does this sound like anything remotely resembling the the God or the Jesus described by the

45:25

Apostles in the New Testament? This is demonic and so this

45:33

The idea that God is the center of the soul That's where we're going in centering prayer and in all the

45:43

Marvelous wisdom teachings of the world religions that are accessing the same reality but from different terminology affected by their cultural condition

45:56

Mmm, so the reason so basically every religion really all the wisdom of the all the ancient religions teach all of this

46:03

But just use different words and and language to describe this reality that are culturally conditioned

46:16

Historical Culture that they came out of you had said if I understood it correctly

46:25

That God was filling the form of Jesus with his fullness. Yeah Does God also fill the form of each individual human with his fullness?

46:36

I think so So you're a little Jesus. You're a little Christ God the

46:41

Father pouring himself into your vessel suppose So there we go. In other words all humans are the so to speak the body of Christ in the sense

46:51

Christ is the term that Paul st. Paul gives to the

46:57

Divine nature of Jesus at least Christian perspective But you expressed it very well,

47:04

I mean why hasn't the Roman Catholic Church Thrown this guy out and anathematized this false theology

47:16

He emptiness of God is filling the form of the human nature of Christ The emptiness of God is filling the form.

47:25

What does that sentence mean? Emptiness can't fill anything Oh man, as far as a human nature can be filled and We call this historical person

47:40

Jesus, but what makes this person immense importance to a

47:46

Christian is that it's the nature that is not just Pulled out of human beings and and Divinized but rather is the divine nature coming into human nature and divinizing it and it's us then who

48:09

Are called into the same process. So we're called in the same process of divin divination

48:16

We recognizing that we are already divine without the same

48:24

Procedure we come from nothing and And the human nature of Jesus comes from everything

48:33

So explain that a little more. We come from nothing. What does that mean? In other words the the fullness of the divinity manifests itself by emptying itself into the

48:48

Limitations of human nature with all its history and it's woundedness or perhaps it's an evolved situation

48:58

Okay, that's part one now for part two So can a human experience

49:09

Unlimitedness and total purity we according to the early fathers of the church through We become

49:18

God in the same degree That God became human which in Christian teaching is complete is total.

49:27

So we become God Wow in everything except deliberate rejection of God or sin so We are put it this way to be a little more strong.

49:41

We're each In carnations of God and To me this is the

49:50

Christian position in regard to Reincarnation It's not a final statement of denial or approval it expresses the mystery which may be both but the essential of the process of Reincarnation in the more more profound expressions of it in the

50:16

Eastern religion is simply to Get out of the cycle is to be transformed fully or to or to reach the enlightened state of Nirvana And I think the

50:31

Christian idea of transformation is not quite enough to fully Express that the term divinization or deification that are often used in the

50:42

Eastern Orthodox tradition expresses that right in our faces so to speak and It's thoroughly present and you'll notice that he keeps referring not really to scripture because the

50:56

Bible doesn't teach this I know he's referring to particular traditions You know

51:01

Buddhist Hindu Eastern Orthodox all about you being becoming

51:09

God in Western liturgy, but not spoken of quite as vigorously as As perhaps it needs to be in our time

51:21

Because It's it's the coming of God into society through the manifestations of the divine in each of us calling us to Participate in a co -creator perhaps cold

51:41

Redeemed if that's a word that is meaningful So we get to co -redeem with Jesus Wow and co -create with God Wow who knew?

51:51

Most people which doesn't mean paying a price for our sins, but or it gives giving us a check to pay for our misdeed but rather it means a manifesting the love of God in the human situation which involves suffering and sometimes suffering for others since the human family is a one species and has one source one destiny and so we're

52:24

So interconnected and inter Dependent that what happens to one is happening to us all

52:33

And is that interdependence in Buddhism that interdependence is a nature of the universe it is a self -arising and that interdependence is

52:46

Say non dependent upon a deity it is just a part of the nature of what is in your view is that interdependence because of the

52:56

The Extraordinary all -permeating quality of divinity or is it an independent interdependence?

53:06

Well, this this is a question that needs to be discussed among those who have experience in their respective traditions and And have understood fully their own tradition and it's its openness to To the fact that It's impossible to use words or concepts to describe because this reality is

53:39

It's both yes and no at one time both one and two Both dual and non -dual and these are things that are rational intellectors can't

53:51

Handle at the same time and so it's the intuition into the unity of the opposites that Begins to give us just a reminder.

54:05

This is an interview regarding the spirituality of centering prayer and the interviewee from the

54:12

Garrison Institute, you know is basically comparing notes between Keating's philosophy and Buddhism and and wouldn't you know what there seems to be like a whole lot of common ground there

54:27

What I like to call the mystery because it's the mystery is what contains all truth without Expressing it in Concepts or words or terms that can only be pointed to Is the divinity within us and we recognize it or is there the potential for the divinity with us

54:52

But we have to call it Well, it's both This is one of the things that I mean when they say you can't express it in one term

55:02

You know, yeah, so it's both whatever that means Where does the Bible teach any of this?

55:08

And by the way again, the reason I'm pointing this out is Because it's not an accident that the article regarding centering prayer appeared at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox

55:21

Rick Warren his theology is drifting like you wouldn't believe and he's leading basically the way for this new kind of spirituality that is anti doctrinal

55:32

Highly mystical in its orientation and well the purpose -driven movement isn't really hostile to contemplative

55:41

Spirituality and centering prayer if they were truly hostile to it. They would have never published that article

55:49

So we're going to the source This is one of the three men responsible for reviving the practice and he is describing the spiritual

55:58

Concepts and philosophy behind it. This isn't a theology by the way, because none of this is revealed in God's Word This is all based upon what he's learned while he himself has been meditating and after he himself

56:09

Discovered that he is God Keep in mind Thomas Keating through his spiritual mysticism has discovered the truth that he is in fact

56:20

God so he is speaking as a little deity and when you express all of it, it sounds like a contradiction, but it

56:31

It isn't it's just our intellect that can't deal with the full reality or translate it into Articulation that's conceptually available for the human reason

56:44

But it's totally real totally present so so the divine presence is not only within us and has to be if we're

56:54

If if if God is existence, which seems to be about as close to a good definition as anybody has come even the great

57:04

Hindu Mystic Ramana Maharshi said the great Hindu mystic

57:11

Weird Phrase to describe a Hindu mystic coming from a man who's supposedly the father of one of the most popular

57:23

Christian Spiritual discipline practices out there. Don't you think?

57:29

the I am that I am of God's words to Moses in Exodus is the best definition there is of of the ultimate reality

57:41

But it's it's it's it's saying something that is also not quite true that is that Everything is in relation to God If it exists at all because God is the source of all that exists

57:59

Everything everything is in relation to God. Yeah Well, it depends again now what you mean by Relationship and relations is something that develops or can grow becomes more profound more integrated some so the discovery of of the great teachers or wisdom teachers seems to be that that this

58:28

Existence that We participate in is also manifesting itself in us

58:36

Not with the same infinite qualities, but with a participation in all that God is

58:44

To a degree that is so far beyond human expectations or imagining put it

58:53

At its lowest element. It's it's as if We were God according to John of the cross

59:00

He's leaving just a little space for the fact. God is not just us, but everything else but the movement of Awakening is to discover that we actually

59:16

Are God in virtue of being existing? Now the other the traditions all add other aspects of this relationship

59:26

Which is peculiar to humans or to Persons who have an intellect and will who reflect on these mysteries who can be grateful or who can love

59:37

God in return? and so there's there's an ontological union that is to be discovered in virtue of Source in God and there is the experience of Compassion or the union of love which continues to go on relating from love to love

01:00:00

Tonight I was hoping to speak a little if there's time on the science of love Which is a knowledge that is not

01:00:10

Knowledge in the intellectual sense primarily, but which is the unfolding of the

01:00:19

Or the waking up to this Part two.

01:00:26

All right now for part three So what does an ordinary person do to awaken this extraordinary?

01:00:35

capacity Okay. So now we're getting to the nuts and bolts What can you as an ordinary person do to awaken yourself to this extraordinary capacity of being deified?

01:00:47

Divinized He's still that's the advice of of the

01:00:53

Psalms or Shut up. He might be clearer for the street like which doesn't mean

01:01:03

To try too hard but to open and consent and surrender and As I understand most of the contemplative meditative traditions in the world religions there are many ways of doing so but they all are pretty well going into the direction of Cultivating interior silence

01:01:33

So contemplative spiritualities of all the different world religions cultivate Silence that's a major part of learning how to discover the

01:01:43

God inside of you humility and the acceptance of our nothingness the acceptance of our nothingness

01:01:57

Not that it's nothing at all But it it is letting go of all

01:02:03

Identification of ourselves as an object or God as an object or other things as an object it's the freedom of Subjectivity Just to be whoever we really are right and and so it's it's it's a development of Being and allowing ourselves

01:02:32

Anything else that happens to us To be that's the basic consent

01:02:38

What you do with that then depends on the inspiration of what we would call grace

01:02:46

Others call it follow your heart but it means the divine action in us, which is leading us into ever -deepening levels of participation in the

01:02:59

In the divine way of being human which the prophets of Israel and Jesus in a special way for Christians have manifested in considerable detail

01:03:14

That one finds in sacred literature So the Buddha also is a standing example of the psychological experience of the path to enlightenment

01:03:28

Now now he's quoting the Buddha favorably and oh, yeah He's a great example of somebody who's gone down the psychological path of the in of enlightenment

01:03:38

This isn't Christianity, this is full -blown Eastern mysticism

01:03:45

With the understanding that while we're just talking about it in the way that The critic the

01:03:50

Christian tradition has talked about it, but it doesn't matter what the words are what tradition you arrive at Or what tradition you use to be the vehicle to take you to this as long as you ultimately

01:04:03

Shut up, be silent and know that you are God Compassion and Unity There's a phrase

01:04:17

I've mentioned a couple of times in talks and it would might be appropriate to repeat it here the broad outlines of this process of transformation or deification or Enlightenment right whatever terms you use pretty much on the same

01:04:39

Line of understanding although using all so different methods or paths of pursuing it and so the first Stage of this journey to reduce it very much is to discover that there is an other capital

01:05:03

O and so this is the Realization and acceptance that there is a higher power to put it in its lowest common denominator, but that this is actually the infinite transcendent

01:05:19

God of the Christians Who's also? equally infinitely imminent so that there is this other is first realization perhaps on the path to unity

01:05:38

Next step might be called to become the other

01:05:46

So there to get there it is again, so you want to want to learn how to become God For God to know the other is to be the other

01:06:01

Trinitarian relationships For us to become God is to be

01:06:08

God Not in the miracle theological sense, but in the fullest possible psychological spiritual

01:06:17

Sense which isn't enough to describe it Divinization is perhaps best word to describe it in that particular tradition

01:06:30

This is the first lie of the devil revived with spiritual

01:06:37

Language thrown around it you are God or you can become God How is this any different?

01:06:46

than the new -age spirituality of Shirley MacLaine If you're not familiar with Shirley MacLaine and maybe it's because you're a young person older folks like me

01:06:55

We we remember Shirley MacLaine's television miniseries out on a limb.

01:07:01

Yeah, that's the name of it Here's a here's a few minutes from Shirley MacLaine having a

01:07:09

Conversation with a spiritual guru out on the beach Overlooking the Pacific Ocean while they described well a theology that sounds exactly like the theology that I'm hearing from Thomas Keating one of the three inventors or revisers modern -day

01:07:30

In recreators of the so -called centering prayer, you know, listen in Isn't it difficult to love somebody who doesn't love himself

01:07:41

Yeah, it's like they don't know who they are, you know, I Mean if you don't know who you are, you can't love this don't you ever get frustrated when you feel like you're not really being yourself

01:07:52

Yes all the time. That's what all the masters have tried to help us with the

01:08:03

Indian avatars They were really just master politicians went right to the root of the problems in society the individual

01:08:13

Some of them said if everybody believed that he was a part of God the kingdom of heaven was within And that if we took responsibility for that that we wouldn't get so frustrated with ourselves

01:08:25

With ourselves or with anybody else But it seems like it takes multiple lifetimes to come to that simple realization

01:08:35

Why isn't reincarnation in the Bible why isn't it taught in Christianity Controversial Second Council of Constantinople.

01:08:47

Yeah, watch this. So why is it reincarnation taught in the Bible? Answer. Oh, it was the evil

01:08:56

Second Council of Constantinople. This is the same argument that a lot of people use regarding the

01:09:03

Gnostics. Why was Gnosticism? How come the Gnostic Gospels weren't accepted as Gospels answer

01:09:10

Oh because of the evil Emperor Constantine and the and the Council of Nicaea Yeah, they got written the

01:09:18

Council Nicaea had nothing to do with picking books of the Bible anyway, so yeah So this is the 1987 version of this argument.

01:09:26

Why isn't Reincarnation in the Bible. Oh well because they the evil

01:09:32

Second Council of Constantinople got rid of it Ha ha ha ha it's the truth, but they wanted to suppress it listen to this

01:09:43

And in spite of the fact that reincarnation could be found in many of the writings of the early church fathers

01:09:56

His counsel condemned the idea of the pre -existence of the soul Emperor Justinian, what do you want to do a thing like that for?

01:10:06

Well, I guess once you get used to the idea of being an emperor You don't want to have to believe that someday you might have to come back

01:10:14

Yeah, but why did the church go along with it Well, I think at first just any impression them into it

01:10:21

But then later, I think they went along with it because they just didn't want people to assume their responsibility for their own karmic destiny

01:10:27

You notice the template here the templates the same the arguments a little bit different But the the gist of the arguments the same

01:10:34

Would be no doubt in my mind that I that's mind -boggling

01:11:03

David. I mean when you think of what that really means Oh a good exercise that helps you get in touch with the realization that we each have got inside of us

01:11:17

Yeah, here's an exercise so that you can realize that you have God inside of you. Here's what you do Just stand up and say the kingdom of heaven now.

01:11:45

I better than that say Say I and God are one.

01:11:56

No, wait, wait, wait better than that. I got the best one. This is just say I Am God see how little you think of yourself

01:12:08

You can't even say the words and if I'm God, what does that make you?

01:12:49

Well, we always see in others what we see in ourselves So there's the theology of the other right there from Shirley MacLaine's Mini series based on her book out on a limb.

01:13:01

I am God I am

01:13:11

God Am God so there's

01:13:33

Shirley MacLaine and her spiritual guru Announcing to the world. I am

01:13:38

God and How is this any different than the spirituality?

01:13:46

taught by Thomas Keating the one of the modern -day inventors and revivers of the spiritual practice known as centering prayer and According to him centering prayer is all about discovering this idea

01:14:02

That you are God And finally Unity consciousness might be described as the realization

01:14:14

There is no other That is to say there is only this

01:14:21

God manifesting in everything and in and in us as God Experiencing our particular uniqueness and thus learning what it's like to be our human nature and to express there insofar as we consent and allow this to happen and That may involve some cooperation and collaboration

01:14:53

But we don't bring this about by our own power but We work at it somewhere.

01:15:01

That's somewhat the way that you treat the symptoms of an illness You don't cure yourself, but you can take the medicine and you can submit to the psychotherapy

01:15:15

That's involved or the divine therapy That is the term

01:15:20

I've suggested for the searching healing In other terminology redemptive or salvific work of God in which he has is introducing us to the ultimate reality

01:15:38

That there isn't anything else at the deepest level of realization

01:15:45

Which does not annihilate the consciousness or the uniqueness of creatures

01:15:53

But As simply put in St.

01:16:00

Paul's teaching God is all in all or when you use

01:16:05

Christ in As a synonym for God as he does Christ is everything in everyone

01:16:14

What's interesting about that formula, which I actually heard from someone else

01:16:20

Originally, but it struck me very much, is that the first two others are capital

01:16:30

But since If you're reading, if you're saying this, you don't know whether they're capitals or small o's

01:16:40

And so the final one is the ultimate question that you could think of for the rest of your life, but Is it a small o or a big

01:16:53

O? There is no other Or is it that there is no other small o

01:17:02

Meaning that God is everything This is the exact Exact same spirituality as Shirley MacLaine's New Age mysticism

01:17:22

Us and all things and all events Or as the

01:17:27

Buddhists put it if I understand it correctly Nirvana is samsara

01:17:34

You think that's acceptable So nirvana is samsara that's apparently with the truth of the universe taught by a

01:17:44

Cistercian monk the creator of one of the three creators of Centering Prayer. I've heard some

01:17:51

Tibetan students of Trungpa Rinpoche say that but that's why

01:17:57

I venture to say it That's another one that can be said and not said

01:18:05

I think yes, I think so too So it leaves you without the absolute certitude

01:18:13

That it's not possible for religion to provide It's always a leap of faith into the unknown

01:18:22

It's a real trust confidence in what is it's a leap of faith, but it's a

01:18:34

It has to be an experience yes Faith is really

01:18:41

Goes through these processes of growth as faith in the other faith Becoming the other and the ultimate faith is beyond faith to be the other

01:18:55

Or vice versa to let the other be you All right, so that was

01:19:04

Thomas Keating like I've been pointing out one of the three Cistercian monks

01:19:12

Responsible for reviving the Centering Prayer and Just ask a question do you think that you can divorce the practice of Centering Prayer from this

01:19:31

Spirituality I Don't see how it can be done. I don't see how you can say well listen listen that you know

01:19:37

Thomas Keating You know he's he's doing it wrong Well, he's one of the three guys that invented it

01:19:45

Yeah, but see you Chris you you Christians you can do Centering Prayer and not believe that they're

01:19:52

God Then if that's the case then my question is why would you want to this isn't the prayer that Jesus taught?

01:20:00

This is something completely different and there is a so when you hear about Contemplative spirituality when you hear about Contemplative prayer when you hear about Centering prayer it doesn't matter if it's

01:20:16

Rick Warren's ministry toolbox teaching you like they did last week No, it doesn't matter.

01:20:23

This is what this is all about you go to the inventors of it And what is it that they're trying to teach you by doing this by doing these practices?

01:20:32

You then come to the conclusion that you are God that's the goal of centering prayer

01:20:41

According to one of the three guys who made it So why would any

01:20:48

Christian want to do this? That's my question well Like I said at the beginning of the program

01:20:55

I'm gonna give the last word to Marcia Montenegro of she wrote an article back in Winter of 2005 in the volume 11 number one edition of the

01:21:07

Midwest Christian Outreach Journal the Midwest Christian Outreach Journal you can find them by googling them, but I'm gonna read her article and What's important for you to understand is this is that this?

01:21:21

spirituality this New Age Eastern pantheistic spirituality is

01:21:29

Integral is a key part of contemplative prayer the the

01:21:37

Lectio Divina practice that Rob Bell taught it's it's integral to centering prayer and You know you just can't divorce this stuff and the the modern purveyors of this include men like Thomas Keating But they also include

01:21:56

Dallas Willard Richard Foster and John Ortberg These are the guys who are out there promoting and you know shilling for this stuff as well as Don't forget

01:22:11

Pete Scazzaro Pete Scazzaro and his emotionally healthy spirituality is

01:22:19

Basically a Rebranded and repackaged version of all of this stuff, and he learned it from the

01:22:26

Trappists from the Cistercians Every year he spends time in a Cistercian Trappist monastery

01:22:33

Doing this stuff, and he's repackaged it, and you know it's so and yeah That's important and who's been promoting speak

01:22:41

Pete Scazzaro Rick Warren is again is it any wonder why that article about contemplative?

01:22:49

Centering prayer appeared at the Rick Warren ministry toolbox. I don't it's as far as I'm concerned.

01:22:55

It's not a stretch at all It makes perfect sense. This is the kind of stuff these guys have been dabbling with it for years and It this is crazy anyway, so let me read this article by Marcia Montenegro She begins with some quotes the first quote.

01:23:13

This is a quote from from Thomas Keating quote God's first language is silence second quote from Richard Foster Progress and intimacy with God means progress towards silence third quote

01:23:31

Basil Pennington co -founder of centering prayer also a monk

01:23:37

Cistercian the important thing is that we are relaxed and our back is straight so that the vitalizing energies can flow freely

01:23:47

Quote number four is from Thomas Merton Contemplation is a pure and virginal knowledge poor in concepts poor still in reasoning

01:23:59

But able by its very poverty and purity to follow the word wherever he may go

01:24:07

Marcia writes she says Contemplative prayer also called centering prayer or listening prayer

01:24:14

Has been taught by Roman Catholic monks Thomas Merton Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington as well as Quaker Richard Foster and others

01:24:25

There is no one authority on this method nor is there necessarily a consistent teaching on it though most of the founding teachers quote mystics along with the

01:24:36

Hindu and Buddhist spiritual teachers according to contemplative outreach org quote

01:24:43

Centering prayer is drawn from ancient prayer practices of the Christian contemplative heritage

01:24:49

Notably the fathers and mothers of the desert Lectio Divina praying the scriptures the cloud of unknowing st.

01:24:56

John of the cross and st Teresa of Avila it was distilled into a simple method of prayer in the 1970s by three

01:25:05

Trappist monks father William Menninger father Basil Pennington Abbott Thomas Keating at the

01:25:11

Trappist Abbey st. Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts It should be added during the 20 years 1961 to 1981 when

01:25:21

Keating was a bat was Abbott st. Joseph's held dialogues with Buddhist and Hindu representatives and a

01:25:28

Zen master gave a week -long retreat to the monks a former Trappist monk who had become a

01:25:34

Transcendental meditation teacher also gave a session to the monks The influence of Buddhism and Hinduism on contemplative prayer hereafter referred to as CP is apparent words such as detachment transformation emptiness enlightenment and Awakening swim in and out of the waters of these books the use of such terms certainly mandates a closer

01:26:01

Inspection of what is being taught even though contemplative prayer is presented as a

01:26:07

Christian practice themes that one finds echoed in the

01:26:12

CP movement include the notions that true prayer is silent is Beyond words is beyond thought does away with the false self triggers transformation of consciousness and is an awakening suggested techniques often include breathing exercises visualization repetition of a word or a phrase and Detachment from thinking as We see from the quotes above silence is assumed to be

01:26:44

God's language This seems contradictory since language usually involves the use of words or at least symbols from whence did this idea?

01:26:54

Arise, well some quote Psalm 62 verse 5 It says my soul wait in silence for God only for my hope is from him

01:27:03

But the passage is about depending on God for refuge and salvation not a form of prayer the emphasis is expectation for God only only

01:27:13

God can save Even if the psalmist was praying the verse is not telling us that Silence is the only way to pray or that we must approach

01:27:21

God in silence however Keating states that vocal prayer is not the most profound prayer

01:27:29

It is a Zen Buddhist concept that truth is beyond words This is also a

01:27:34

Taoist view Zen's roots are in Taoism and Buddhism Zen teaches that truth must be realized as one practices sitting meditation or Zazen cultivating an empty mind by letting go of thoughts so that rational thinking is transcended or perhaps as Is the

01:27:56

Rizani school of Zen one's awareness is triggered by koans such as what is the sound of one hand?

01:28:03

Clapping or what was your face before you were born according to Zen?

01:28:09

Buddha's real message remained always Unspoken and was such that when words attempted to express it they made it seem as if it were nothing at all another popular

01:28:20

Bible passage used to advocate Silent meditation as prayer is

01:28:25

Psalm 46 verse 10 which says be still and know that I am God However this is being taken out of context a study of the psalm shows that this is actually a rebuke from God To those striving against him some translations render it as cease striving and know that I am

01:28:41

God Charles Spurgeon remarks on verse 10 quote hold off your hands ye enemies sit down and wait in patience ye believers

01:28:52

Acknowledge that Jehovah is God ye who feel the terrors of his wrath Adore him and him only ye who partake in the protection of his grace praying in silence or ruminating on a passage of scripture in silence is

01:29:08

Normal, but silence should not be regarded as superior to words Nor does the

01:29:13

Bible give any support to the notion that the language of God is silence interestingly foster even warns about Silent contemplative prayer saying that is for mature believers that we are entering deeply into the

01:29:29

Spiritual realm where we may encounter Spiritual beings who are not on God's side

01:29:36

He suggests a prayer of protection in which one surrounds himself with the light of Christ saying all dark and evil spirits must now leave and Other words to keep evil ones at bay

01:29:50

I could not help but think of my new age days when I was taught to invoke a white light of protection before psychic activity or contact with the dead

01:30:02

Jesus and praying for his disciples said keep them from the evil one But this was a petition to guard us from Satan's schemes not a formula for warding off evil spirits.

01:30:12

Oh You know for warding off evil spirits while we pray Silence can be soothing and comforting

01:30:19

We cannot get deep into insights when we are quiet But simply trying to be quiet is not prayer and it does not support the view that real prayer is wordless

01:30:30

After all God has given us a written revelation and God's laws and words are acclaimed throughout the

01:30:36

Bible such as Psalm 119 which extols God's Word as a treasure and a lamp in Isaiah 40 verse 8

01:30:44

Quote the grass withers the flowers fade But the Word of our God stands forever and Jesus declares to the father in John 17 17.

01:30:53

Thy word is truth according to Keating Contemplative prayers should be detachment from thought getting into a state of no thinking and That it is the time to let go of all thoughts even the best of thoughts so that only pure awareness

01:31:10

Exists he even claims that the Holy Spirit will not barge in if we are using reason and intellect and it is only when we are willing to abandon our very limited human modes of thought and concepts and open a

01:31:25

Welcoming space that the Spirit will begin to operate in us at this divine level when we center

01:31:32

We practice leaving our human thoughts and reasoning behind and attending to the divine to the spirit

01:31:39

This presents a radical redefinition of prayer as well as a false duality between thought or reason and spirituality a concept common in the

01:31:48

New Age Pennington Discusses a shift in consciousness and going beyond ordinary consciousness into a state of pure Consciousness in which we leave the false self for the true self and attaining a unity consciousness

01:32:05

With God he quotes the father's is saying so long as a man is aware.

01:32:10

He is praying. He is not yet praying and He quotes Merton that we should rise above thought

01:32:18

Pennington has a chapter titled pure consciousness in which he states that God is known in pure consciousness rather than by some subject object knowledge a writer for youth

01:32:31

Specialties an organization devoted to youth ministries states that his interest in contemplative prayer began by reading

01:32:39

Dallas Willard and Richard Foster and later mystics like Meister Eckhart Teresa of Avila and Morton Kelsey He built a prayer room and reports quote in that space

01:32:54

I lit candles burned incense hung rosaries and listened to tapes of Benedictine monks

01:33:01

I meditated for hours on words images and sounds I reached the point of being able to achieve alpha brain patterns

01:33:10

The state in which dreams occur while still awake and meditating The sounds like going into an altered state of consciousness a light trans state

01:33:21

Which is the same state one enters Eastern slash New Age meditation and which parallel techniques of self

01:33:29

Hypnosis in fact the purpose of Eastern New Age meditation is to go beyond the mind

01:33:34

Because of the belief that the mind is a barrier to spiritual enlightenment This same writer also states that a retreat at a retreat quote we held thin Place services in reference to a belief that in prayer the veil between us and God becomes thinner

01:33:55

Entire nights were devoted to guided meditations drum circles and soul labs

01:34:03

Yet in the Bible meditations on God or on the words of God are never presented as an exercise without thinking many of the words

01:34:12

Translated as meditation the Bible are words meaning to muse ponder utter or to make a sound

01:34:18

Most of these words are in the Psalms where David is praising the precepts and words of God that And affirming that these are what we should learn obey and think upon this definitely is not

01:34:31

Leaving ordinary thinking for another level of consciousness nor do we take actions to make a non -existent veil between God and us thinner

01:34:42

Did not the death of Jesus on the cross rip the heavy the heavy veil in the

01:34:47

Holy of Holies of the temple forever Serving as a symbol of the opening of opening the way to God for those who believe due to Eastern and New Age influences in our culture the word meditation has come to mean a technique to enter another state of Consciousness to go beyond thinking or to realize spiritual enlightenment

01:35:08

We cannot read these techniques and purposes into the biblical word translated as meditation which originates from several different Hebrew words the context of these words indicate an active pondering or a thinking and a

01:35:23

Learning neither a technique nor a disengagement from the mind

01:35:30

Thomas Merton claims that quote the superficial eye is not our real self

01:35:37

But only our individuality and Empirical self not the hidden and mysterious person in whom we subsist before the eyes of God This kind of thinking is found also in Keating and Pennington Keating states that Contemplative prayer takes us to a place quote in which want in which the knower the knowing and that which is known are all one

01:36:02

Awareness alone remains the one who is aware disappears along with whatever was the object of consciousness

01:36:09

This is what the divine union is Keating and Merton both discuss the false self and the true self

01:36:17

Keating Capitalizes self and states God and our true self are not separate

01:36:23

Though we are not God and God and our true self are the same thing According to Merton our external everyday self is mostly a fabrication and it is not our true self

01:36:34

Which is not easy to find it is hidden in obscurity and nothingness at the center where we are in the direct dependence on God Buddhism teaches that our identities are merely fleeting images or impressions like images on film or a

01:36:50

Sequence of happenings of a process and that we must discover our true nature the

01:36:56

Buddha nature the conventional self or the person or person is composed mainly of a history of Consisting of selected memories and as one

01:37:07

Zen Buddhist says There is no you to say I what we call

01:37:13

I is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and When we exhale and when your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement

01:37:23

There is nothing no, I know world no mind nor body just swinging door

01:37:30

Self is illusory in Hinduism Daoism and Buddhism because the only reality is the absolute the

01:37:37

Tao or the Buddha nature the Contemplative prayer teachers do not say that we are really

01:37:45

God But they present a dichotomy between a false and a true self The Bible talks about the old sin nature versus the new creature in Christ It is not put in terms of true and false or illusion and truth but rather in terms of bondage to sin and Regeneration it is not a matter of awareness

01:38:08

But rather a matter of being born again and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit Merton does not acknowledge this point in one book though.

01:38:18

He still speaks of false and true selves sometimes in Jungian Psychological terms sometimes in spiritual terms is our sin nature a false self

01:38:29

Not false in the sense of not being real certainly such terms echo Eastern Concepts and at the very least are confusing and misleading

01:38:40

Most of the contemplative prayer teachers announced that contemplative prayer is not a technique and Then they go on to recommend various techniques

01:38:48

Pennington offers three rules or guides which include being relaxed to be in faith and love to God who dwells in the center of your being and To and to take up a love word and whenever you become aware of anything simply gently

01:39:07

Return to the Lord with the use of your prayer word Merton Keating Pennington and sometimes

01:39:17

Foster suggests repeating a word or a phrase such as Jesus Lord Father friend or the

01:39:29

Jesus prayer During contemplative prayer this can be repeated aloud Deep within or used as a word to return to when one becomes aware of anything else

01:39:41

Pennington advises Memorize it and slowly repeat it to yourself allowing it to interact with your inner world of concerns memories and ideas

01:39:52

Keating credits the mystical cloud of unknowing for this idea and States that it should be a love word, which will take us beyond our ordinary

01:40:03

Consciousness as an outreach of love to the infinite hmm in Hinduism Tibetan Buddhism Transcendental meditation and sometimes in New Age meditation a word called a mantra is given to the meditator

01:40:18

To repeat this is often the name of a deity or sometimes a phrase meaning I am that This not that or simply

01:40:26

I am the purpose of this mantra is Self -purification and to become open to spiritual truths repeating a word or phrase over and over Is also one of the tools of self hypnosis many of the terms used by contemplative prayer teachers are the same terms used in hypnosis and in Eastern New Age teaching ie shift in consciousness pure consciousness emptying the mind creating a space go beyond thought

01:41:02

Foster quotes heavily from contemplative prayer teachers and mystics. There are problematic statements such as let me suggest we take an

01:41:10

Experiential attitude towards spiritual realities or we are working with God to determine the future

01:41:17

Certain things will happen in history if we pray rightly and when praying for others

01:41:22

We should quote if it should not pray if it be thy will to God He advocates us using a visualization technique when praying in order to bring about the results

01:41:35

He also comments that God is not a male deity as opposed to a female deity the focus on relaxation repeating a word or phrase concentrating on your breath

01:41:49

Detachment from thought and trying to go beyond reasoning should cause concern

01:41:56

Having learned and practiced various forms of Eastern and New Age meditation for many years before I became before becoming a

01:42:03

Christian I can attest to the ability to enter a light trance state using the techniques suggested by contemplative prayer advocates this state in which one in which

01:42:16

New Agers and others call pure consciousness where one is Suspended from active thought in the ability to make judgments

01:42:23

In fact Zen Buddhism techniques that one needs to cultivate the ability to to detach and to set aside

01:42:30

Judgment, the mind is open and receptive without critical thinking skills in place

01:42:36

Although Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We are not immune to deception or delusion

01:42:41

Otherwise, the Bible would not so consistently warm believers about deception and false teachers do

01:42:49

Techniques bring closeness to God, especially when such techniques are parallel to Eastern religious practices

01:42:59

Ephesians chapter 2 verse 13 tells us but now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near to the by the blood of Christ We draw near to God through Christ Hebrews 4 16 not through techniques

01:43:16

When first John talks about abiding in Christ it speaks of following Christ's commandments and showing love for each other

01:43:25

Keating quotes from a major Buddhist text the diamond Sutra to discuss letting go and tells the reader that although psychic powers such as Levitation may result from transcend from contemplative prayer such powers are quote

01:43:42

Like the frosting on the cake and we cannot survive on frosting alone and so if the reader is interested in psychic phenomena to quote be sure to practice them under an approved master such warnings about getting attracted to psychic gifts resulting from meditation are commonly issued by those teaching

01:44:04

Hindu and Buddhist meditation Pennington writes of his admiration for the great yogi

01:44:10

Swami Sadichi done Don't on Daji. I can't even pronounce it and his

01:44:17

Pennington's approval of an American professor Who quote in search of true wisdom had gone to India to study under hint a

01:44:26

Hindu Swami? He states that for quote most Hindus. Jesus is just one of the many

01:44:33

Manifestations of the one God but that each person is entitled to have his or her own chosen deity or manifestation of God Jesus is the manifestation for the

01:44:45

West Pennington also acknowledges that both Merton and another person saw the parallels of contemplative prayer with Sufi Meditation and prayer and he approves of Christians participating in Transcendental meditation he writes that contemplative prayer can be learned and used effectively by anyone

01:45:05

Ie non -christians and that he has not hesitated to share it with anyone one cannot help, but wonder

01:45:13

Where is Christ in any of this? another contemplative prayer teacher heavily influenced

01:45:21

By the East in Thomas Merton Merton was a man of great intelligence and this is apparent in his writings, but he writes of his meetings with the

01:45:31

Dalai Lama in Asia saying he felt quote a spiritual bond with him

01:45:37

He stated that he found parallels between the meditation concepts and methods of the

01:45:42

Catholic monks with the Tibetan Buddhists And he was even discussing establishing a

01:45:48

Tibetan Buddhist meditation center in the United States He also called Tibetan Buddhist leader

01:45:55

Chogyam Trongpa wise and a genuine spiritual master

01:46:02

Merton was even considering being initiated into Dazagchen an esoteric

01:46:09

Tibetan Buddhist meditation practice and was thinking of editing a book of Buddhist writings

01:46:15

These projects were cut short by his sudden accidental death in Asia in December of 1968

01:46:22

Although he had previously written books on Zen Buddhism Merton's Asian journals and the last words he penned reveal his fascination with Eastern beliefs and Practices while never showing an inclination to substitute

01:46:37

Eastern beliefs for Christianity He seemed to acknowledge Eastern religions as equally valid and showed a willingness to adapt

01:46:46

Some of their beliefs into his Christian ones What else can one think when he writes of seeking advice on initiation into Dazagchen and thinking of helping to establish a

01:46:59

Tibetan Buddhist meditation center as a Christian believer My thoughts would be to dialogue with those

01:47:06

Buddhists in order to present Christ to them Not to seek initiation into their practices or to spread their teachings

01:47:15

Reflecting on God's Word in the sense of thinking it over and letting it sink in is a normal way of learning and understanding

01:47:23

Using our mind is not a barrier to understanding God nor his Word in fact in Matthew 22 verses 37 through 38, it says

01:47:34

Jesus said love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind

01:47:41

This is the first and greatest commandment this reference Uses Deuteronomy 6 5 which is a rendering in many versions as loving

01:47:49

God with all of one's heart soul and strength or might The net

01:47:54

Bible gives this explanation about the Hebrew word Labab which is translated as heart in Deuteronomy 6 5 heart in the

01:48:06

Old Testament Physiology the heart was considered the seat of the mind or the intellect so that one could think with one's heart even the

01:48:14

Greek word for heart cardia used in Matthew 2 22 is translated as mind and in other passages another explanation

01:48:22

The Hebrew word for heart is lab. The Greek counterpart is cardia

01:48:27

Zod hiyatis says in his Hebrew lexicon that the main use of the word heart refers to the totality of man's inner or immaterial nature

01:48:37

The heart is the seat of your intellect feelings and will and it is almost it is almost a synonym for mind vines expository dictionary states the heart in its moral significance is the old test and in the

01:48:53

Old Testament includes Emotions the reason and the will the word translated as understanding mind and heart are often

01:49:01

Interchangeable in the Bible the heart in the scriptures is the very is variously used sometimes for the mind and understanding

01:49:08

Sometimes for the will sometimes for the affections sometimes with the conscious sometimes for the whole soul

01:49:14

Generally, it denotes the whole soul of man and all the faculties of it

01:49:20

Not absolutely But as they are are all one principle of moral operation as they all concur in our doing good or evil

01:49:30

The false dichotomy in our culture between mind and heart does not exist in the

01:49:36

Bible Our our culture associates feelings and often spirituality with the heart and separates that from thinking

01:49:43

But this is a modern concept possibly a legacy from the Romantics, but not a biblical one we see this fictitious dichotomy in contemplative prayer between the mind or reasoning and one and On the one hand and feelings or spiritual experiences on the other

01:50:01

Foster creates a theme of this in one of his books in which he endorses the prayer of the mind

01:50:07

Apart from the prayer of the heart the message comes across clearly that if one is using one's mind

01:50:13

One is unable to truly commune with God One must go beyond the rational in order to actually experience closeness with God one must go beyond Words into silence to have true union with God.

01:50:28

Not only are these concepts not supported by the Bible But they are also they also set up the false expectations and are likely to evoke artificial experiences

01:50:38

Christian prayer should be taught as it is modeled in the Bible particularly in the

01:50:44

New Testament Some key passages include Matthew chapter 5 verses 43 through 45 Praying for our enemies

01:50:50

Matthew 6 verse 6 pray without showing off Matthew 6 9 through 13 the

01:50:56

Lord's Prayer Matthew 7 verse 6 do not pray with repetitions Matthew 9 38 pray for pray for God to send workers into his harvest

01:51:07

Matthew 21 22 and James 1 through 1 verse 6 pray in faith

01:51:13

Luke 18 1 through 8 Pray petition without losing heart ask in the name of Christ John 16 23 through 24 and Romans 8 25 through 27 the

01:51:26

Holy Spirit prays for us even when we don't know how to pray 1st Corinthians 14 15 pray

01:51:32

With the spirit and with the mind 1st Thessalonians 5 17 pray without ceasing not mindlessly

01:51:38

But having an attitude of praying and being in the Lord in all times in all things James 5 14 through 16 pray for the sick.

01:51:47

These prayers use words and these prayers use thoughts except for when the

01:51:53

Holy Spirit prays for us that does not require techniques or a state of non thinking because the

01:51:59

Holy Spirit is interceding for us a feature article on the Catholic answers website warns quote

01:52:06

Many people assume centering prayer is compatible with the Catholic tradition But in fact the techniques of centering prayer are neither

01:52:13

Christian nor are they prayer? They are at the level of human faculties and as such are not

01:52:19

An operation they are an operation of man and not of God the deception and dangers can be grave people promoting contemplative prayer often present a false dilemma between neatly packaged

01:52:33

Evangelical Christianity oriented toward logic and reason versus the experiential mystical aspects of contemplative prayer

01:52:41

This idea is now becoming more common with the influence of post -modernism. This has been shown to be a false dilemma by supporting

01:52:51

Reason and thinking as part of the communication with God one is not discriminating against silent prayer feelings or experiences

01:52:59

Nowhere in the Bible is prayer a technique or a way to go beyond thinking

01:53:05

Creating a whole theology of prayer apart from the Bible is dangerous precisely because we are entering an area fraught with subjectivism truth based on experience and therefore an area where we can be deceived

01:53:20

Contemplative prayer teachers tell us that prayer is listening to and having divine union with God But the

01:53:27

Bible presents prayer as words and thoughts Contemplative prayer tells us to focus inward but the

01:53:34

Bible admonishes us to focus outward on the Lord and evaluation of contemplative prayer reveals it to be a

01:53:42

Melange of the New Age and Mr. Eastern tinge techniques and concepts that exist outside of the

01:53:48

Bible contemplative prayer is A misnomer since it is neither Contemplation nor prayer as found in the

01:53:56

Bible We should be wary of any instruction that advises us to breathe a certain way before or during prayer maintain a certain posture or bodily position

01:54:10

Repeat a word or phrase or use of use a phrase to stay focused

01:54:17

Go beyond thinking or thought or be in silence in order to truly pray

01:54:23

Believe that contemplative prayer is true prayer Great article from somebody who knows that's

01:54:31

Marcia Montenegro's Article entitled Contemplating contemplative prayer.

01:54:38

Is it really prayer? The answer is no So let me go back to What appeared at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox

01:54:50

At pastors calm and let me reread segments of this Knowing what, you know, ask yourself this question

01:54:58

Why on earth would Rick Warren's ministry toolbox website pastors calm?

01:55:05

have ever Posted anything like this here it is again

01:55:12

Centering prayer trust Jesus Brigham's transformation a healthy spiritual life is an important part of overall wellness and active and healthy faith means

01:55:21

That we are concerned with something larger than ourselves It also means most often that we are part of a community of people with similar beliefs and priorities to ours

01:55:32

But we sometimes become bored with our normal spiritual routine One way to add something different to our faith is to try a practice called centering prayer

01:55:42

Centering prayer is an ancient form of prayer. That is a combination of prayer and meditation The practice was revived in the 1960s and 70s by three

01:55:51

Cistercian monks The practice of centering prayer allows for the recognition of thoughts and gently releases them into the hands of God This form of prayer relies on the awareness that the

01:56:03

Holy Spirit resides in the one who prays. That's right Yeah, because you're

01:56:08

God Connecting them heart to heart with God. So, how do you begin this practice of centering prayer set aside a minimum of 15 minutes

01:56:18

Increase your time as you can and set a timer if that helps you to be less concerned about when to stop settle into a comfortable position

01:56:27

Intentionally place yourself in the presence of God and in the center of his love

01:56:32

Choose a simple word phrase or verse from Scripture that expresses your desire for God For example a word such as love peace grace

01:56:44

Jesus Great Shepherd Let this word guard your attention

01:56:49

Take time to be quiet It is not unusual for the first minute to for the first few minutes to be filled with many noisy thoughts

01:56:56

Don't worry about them or pay attention to them. Let them go Gently return your attention to the center of God's presence and love by repeating the scripture that you select

01:57:09

Let the verse draw your attention back to Jesus be with Jesus listen be still

01:57:18

Because centering prayer is a way of being with Jesus that doesn't cover prayer concerns

01:57:24

Some people wonder if it counts as real prayer No, it doesn't furthermore if it doesn't make you feel or experience something particularly, what does it do?

01:57:33

Well, yeah, see that's these are great questions It's never possible to judge the value of any prayer based on feeling or experience alone

01:57:40

Experiences are not the point in centering prayer. The goal is to so dwell in Christ That the fruit of this dwelling begins to show up in your life centering prayer may do nothing at the moment

01:57:51

You sense no rapture. No mystical bliss But later as you move out into the business of life, you begin to notice that something is shifted your quiet center in Christ holds

01:58:01

Centering prayer trusts that being with Jesus brings Transformation so knowing what you now know from one of the men who helped really you kind of revive this practice and The reason why he revived it is so that people could

01:58:23

Discover that they are God why on Earth would

01:58:33

Rick Warren's ministry toolbox and Pastors comm ever for a second

01:58:42

Publish an article like that. This isn't

01:58:47

Christianity. This isn't Christian prayer This is Eastern pantheistic monism and meditation

01:58:58

That's what this is again Why is it the folks?

01:59:06

Associated with Saddleback Church would even for a second think that this is appropriate for any

01:59:12

Christian to practice So my challenge again to Rick Warren is this

01:59:19

It's not enough that you remove the words of this article off your website

01:59:25

You must publish a retraction and explain why this

01:59:31

Practice is contrary to Christianity This isn't about Spin control for Saddleback and Rick Warren This is about the truth of the gospel and sound biblical doctrine and people being deceived by demons

01:59:49

And going to hell So Rick Warren We need to hear a retraction from you we need to hear you with your own voice

02:00:03

Explain why this this practice is dangerous and contrary to Christianity the truth be told if I were a betting man,

02:00:15

I wouldn't bet a single slug nickel

02:00:21

That Rick Warren or anybody at Rick Warren's ministry toolbox will ever

02:00:28

Say anything Negative about this practice. It just quietly disappeared because there was controversy

02:00:38

Maybe they'll bring it back in a couple of years We'll see. All right.

02:00:44

We're at the end of another edition of fighting for the faith Just a reminder. This is a listener supported radio

02:00:50

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02:01:05

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02:01:23

Fishers, Indiana zip code four six zero three eight So, what'd you think?

02:01:29

I'd love to get your feedback You can email me my email address talk back at fighting for the faith comm or you can ask to be my friend on Facebook It's facebook .com

02:01:37

forward slash pirate Christian or you follow me on Twitter My name there pirate Christian till tomorrow may God richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ His vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins.