Christian Challenges Post-Modern Mormon with Objective Truth

Apologia Utah

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Gospel track for you today, sir going to general conference. No, it's browsing around Getting out nice fresh air.

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Oh Yeah, man. I hope it starts cooling off soon, though Thought it was supposed to but my goodness.

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Oh, I'm a reformed Baptist Yep out here. Just passing out tracks trying to get in conversations

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Oh, really We're in the south Oh, okay, nice kind of like by by Bloomington and stuff

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Further south than that. Are you LDS? Yeah. Yeah, we grown.

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Did you grow up that way? Yeah, have you ever tested any of the words of the prophets and stuff like that Hey Finny quiet buddy,

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I'm having a conversation So what have you thought about some of the contradictions between Joseph Smith's revelation and what the

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Bible says man? There's a lot of contradictions in all the words of God. So you think so As far as they've been translated correctly, that's that's a bigger question

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I find it's Yeah, have you ever considered that? We have the the manuscripts over 40 ,000 of them from the original languages

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That we can actually take a look and see if anything has been changed. It sticks out like a sore thumb

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Have you ever heard a textual criticism because like even atheistic scholars who don't believe the Bible to be the

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Word of God They don't make the act the argument that we don't know what's in it. They'll say we know what's in it Having been a missionary for two years, uh -huh.

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I find that generally Having kind of Doctrinal discussions doesn't really move

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Okay, if you really want to change people's hearts or convince them that the path you're following is the best the first thing you just need to do is be a great example and And then from there,

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I think people just tell me by the way real quick You know, like if you're really an example of Jesus Christ I think people are gonna find find their way towards you just because they see the light in you, right?

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Yeah, where do you find where do you think you get that in Scripture though? I Think it's kind of obvious like a principle.

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Yeah. I mean people that are really searching I think they Will see that in you.

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I saw it because I've seen it in people in many nations. I've seen it in my I've seen it with my good friend.

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Who's of Islamic tradition Occasionally he'll inspire me to act

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Do you think he saves Salvation is a very very interesting question.

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Yeah, even even heaven is a very kind of an abstract idea it's not really I mean we get some ideas of what it is in the scriptures, but I mean if you want to be very

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Scripturally, I don't know strict. I guess you could say that all we're gonna do is sing in heaven. That's what some people believe, right?

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I don't I don't see that in the scriptures, but we would you worship God for all eternity? That's for sure, but we're also supposed to worship

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God with what we do on earth But we're falling right, you know I believe the Bible when it says that the gospel is the power of God for salvation

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And I think that the gospel changes and makes people act differently, of course But I don't think that just the way

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I act will make someone follow me and I can't persuade someone to the truth like Romans 3 it says this it says no one understands

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God. No one seeks God all have gone astray The venom of asps is under our lips.

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So it says no one seeks. No one seeks Romans 3. You can look it up yourself It's a condemnation upon our fallen nature that Paul is giving to the whole world.

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Okay, so when someone is With Paul with the word seek, okay

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Hold on buddy seeking. There's the scripture that says if any of you lack of wisdom ask of God Hold on buddy.

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Hey, do you see his binky by any chance? It's like should be connected to him or something

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I'm sorry. No, where's your binky? Do we throw it? Okay. Thank you. I apologize Yeah, so you're quoting a talking about James 1 5

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So in that in that scripture, I mean it implies that You know that we should ask which

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I think is seeking. Yeah So do you think James is speaking to though? I guess context matters for sure.

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But again, you're getting at the point of the scriptures, which is that you can contextually and Derive whatever interpretation you want and people can use people use the scriptures all the time to justify evil things

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And so in that sense, you know, how is their interpretation wrong then because you're saying it's evil meaning therefore their interpretations

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I use it. Yeah, exactly the interpretations about so regardless of their interpretation. You can use truth.

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You can use true words Oh Disguises he knows the Bible better than anyone He disguises lies with you know mounds of truth and they you know, so that's just that's just humanity so from anyway more than anything though,

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I think that We our hearts should be gradually but we should be inclined to follow

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Christ and follow his example and I think that you know Part of that is understanding ourselves and understanding our own weaknesses and you know figuring that out and figuring out

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Okay, how is my life not in? Alignment with his vision for my life and you know, how is it that you know, whatever my makeup is can be

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Structured to you know fit his mission, but I don't know I find On my mission

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I found that kind of getting into conversations about denominational difference And not helpful to to the mission of the

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Savior I think recognizing the power of many religions to At least you know, at least what through what we call the light of Christ inform our behaviors to be more like his

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Is incredibly powerful. I think if you look in every religion, you'll find things that are true You can find the false traditions in there, too

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And I'm sure anybody who examines the Church of Jesus Christ long enough is gonna find plenty Right. It was just like like Satan you said he gives lots of truth

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But all of it is mostly mainly lies and I find that most of that is informed through Maltradition that is incurred over generations and you can find that in any religion you can find that in you know

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Small denominations of people that get led astray by a single man, especially one who believes he's figured it out because that's

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Have you read the King Follett discourse? Yeah, I mean Joseph thought he had it figured out

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He said no one until him had the revelation of the character of God including

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Jesus when he says that Joseph was But he was speaking as a prophet So the hard thing to get me over to where you would be

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I would have to deny the 500 Pages of the Book of Mormon, which I've read and I I don't know how they wouldn't be the same as the

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Bible They're so similar in their Makeup and in there and I feel like they add to the

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Bible And so I you would have a very difficult time, you know for convincing someone like well,

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I can't persuade you See, I don't believe I can persuade you I think it's only the Spirit of God that can save you because I think that's what the

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Bible says So in terms of the Book of Mormon, though, my question would be is why should I?

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Believe the Book of Mormon to be true For what reason I? Think that you

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I mean you using your logic you can even apply that same, you know, tell me the logic then if you

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If you really feel like again, and I don't think you feel this but if you were

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Someone who is seeking Christ wherever you found Whether that's reading the Quran Whatever it is and you wanted to understand him better through that gospel

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Then you should be able to look at the Book of Mormon and go. Oh, okay I don't think you should be able to discern

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What it is that it's trying to teach right? So if you read the 500 pages of the Book of Mormon and you came out of it and you said oh

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This is you know, this is you know, I mean I think you'd have a hard time Looking at it and saying that all 500 pages are leading you towards a path that is devil worship or something like that.

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Mm -hmm, but You know, you could maybe make some criticisms about it I think that most of those would be more clerical errors than they are like doctrinally unsound

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So I find that most people just haven't read it back and they haven't right through it

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And again, just like you said, I mean, it's very much we make a very similar argument, which is that If you read this and you pray about it,

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I don't make that argument about the Bible I don't think the Bible says pray about the Bible. You're gonna believe it Well not believe it but prayer in and of itself is an act of alignment with the

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Savior, isn't it? Yeah, I think God it says that the prayer of the Saints like those who are saved are like incense to him

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Like he listens to them. I don't think that God listens to prayers of people that aren't saved right, so What I'm thinking about he ignores the prayers of all those who aren't of your denomination not my denomination

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No, that's what saved me saved. Thank you. Great question So the Bible the way it demonstrates salvation is threefold.

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You have been saved you are being saved. You will be saved So there's one Greek word used in three different ways

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It's kind of like in Romans 8 with the golden chain of Redemption it's called those who are called but those who are protestant who are also called those who are called will be justified and those

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Who are justified will be glorified. So it's a golden chain here Meaning that upon my salvation. I have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

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That's what it says in Ephesians chapter 1 solely through my belief in Jesus Christ Not according to the works that I do but my belief which was a gift given to me from God From my soul being quickened by the proclamation of the gospel

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He took my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh and caused me to observe his statutes, right?

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Though I'm not perfect by any means so salvation is God saving me purely by my belief through the blood of Jesus Christ because even in Ephesians 1 it says

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That I'm adopted into the family of Christ because of the blood of Jesus Christ So we have

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Jesus who is the eternal God? uncreated creator of all things who took on flesh right was perfectly obedient to the law in every way

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I couldn't be and Then he was the sacrifice for my sins. His blood was spilt for me.

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So through my belief in him I'm covered in his blood and I go from death into life in my belief gives me the righteous robes of Christ And so when

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I stand before the father upon my death, I stand justified declared righteous Solely through the works of Jesus Christ and no work of my own

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That's the gospel right and then Jesus rose from the dead three days later since the right hand of the father

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Well, would you you would think I would assume that the gospel would be article 3 Baptism Yeah And that's where I find

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Doctrinal issues actually matter because Paul says they matter 2nd Corinthians 11 He says there's people who will come they'll preach a different Jesus a different gospel and a different spirit

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So I have the words of God telling me that there's going to be a different gospel Yeah, I think what's important what's the gospel

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Is important I think the majority of the time that's how do

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I put this? I mean when the Savior's here, he'll clarify that all for us.

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It'll be too late It'll be too late. I mean, that's the worry that I have for you, man It'll be too late.

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You think that you're gonna have time to repent, but you won't you have time now I'm in a course of repentance myself on a daily basis.

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So to who though Well to the Savior which Jesus which

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Jesus yeah, Paul warns us Do you think Paul had an apostolic authority when he wrote 2nd Corinthians? I Feel like we're splitting hairs.

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It's not splitting hairs I'm just talking about the Word of God that it says in the Bible that you need to rightly divide the word of truth from my

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Perspective. Well, your perspective is your opinion, right and I'm appealing to God's Word, which is outside of our opinion

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So you have your opinion and that's appealing to God's opinion of your opinion, but I'm not my opinion

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I'm quoting scripture to you I Understand it the the appeal to or the

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Argument from authority. I think is a little bit shaky Everyone makes an argument of authority yours is your opinion minds the objective standard of God's Word.

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You can't escape it. No, I'm using logical Arguments, where does logic come from?

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It's yeah, I feel like we've kind of lost I'm trying to help you think through some of what you're saying We've lost the spirit here in the sense that I don't think the

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Savior really Finds this type of communication Well, how do you know it's the

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Spirit of God that's my question in my worry for you Like, how do you know the Book of Mormon to be true? Right.

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I Really do need to actually get to work. Oh, I appreciate this conversation.

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I appreciate you I think it's very difficult to stand and just well you went on your mission.

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Like you said, so yeah, it's like Oh, I appreciate you

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Hey, well, I thank you for your time man. You didn't have to stop and talk with me. So I really appreciate that Yeah, totally again. Like I said many many many of my friends are

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Baptists Yeah, you still hang out with them or they just don't Illinois chillin or whatever. Yeah, they've all

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I'm the only one That really hasn't gotten married yet. So they're all married and have kids like Josh Mitchell is

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If he's followed his dream, I'm sure he's still You remind me a lot of him actually, oh really

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I loved yeah, we used to get the doctrinal arguments all the time this kid I bet you did. Yeah. Yeah.

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So so you grew up like a high school. Yeah, so he's just Those guys are all very close to my heart.

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Yeah, but uh, yeah is So this is a good walk down memory lane,

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I really appreciate oh, thanks man. Hey, you be safe when you're walking out there I know it's a pretty crazy place where it can get crazy.

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But uh, I really appreciate you talk with me Okay, what was your name? Andrew Andrew Ryan Ryan? Okay. Nice to meet you, man.