Brother Joe on “China: Facts & Fiction (& Its Culture & Religious Climate Described By One Christian American Who Has Lived There)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's.

Our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the.

Rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 24th

day of August 2018 and I am delighted to have for the very first time

a guest today who is going by an alias and this will become very quickly obvious why he

is using an alias.

Today our guest we are calling Brother Joe and he is going to be discussing

China facts and fiction and its culture and religious climate described by

one Christian American who has lived there.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Brother Joe

and this is I think the third time that we have had someone using an

alias on the show due to reasons that they each had.

But as we typically do on this program when we have a first time

guest Brother Joe we'd like you to give us a summary of your testimony.

Obviously leaving out any names that would make an alias a moot

point but if you could tell us something about the religious atmosphere

that you were raised in if any and how our sovereign lord drew you to himself what

providential circumstances arose in your life by his hand.

That led you to

him and

how you were

saved.

Send me

every

week

but

I believe

to be my

value

that.

Into university I

began to have a

little

bit of resurgence toward my religious thinking and

this was

actually my first

serious

reading.

Reading

of the

script

some

days

and

then

put it down pick it up again put it

down over time began

to make.

I began to see some things as I read that

Bible

individual

more and

I began

to see

God's stand

same Bible.

I

was

starting

that

he

actually

and that

that

fact needed

God's

mercy and

that's

why Christ

in

China

being a

student of

China and Chinese people

apply

these

things.

Well uh as you

know our theme today is China and uh specifically.

Facts and fiction about China and its culture and religious climate

described by you who uh is uh who are

a Christian American who has lived there.

And um let's start first of all with what led you

to China.

Using language that wouldn't be so detailed that it.

Would reveal your

identity and

so on.

Multi -racial neighborhood which

which is

actually

I was

kind

of

wrong

with many

and

the

combination

of the I

knew

and

learned.

Now uh

were you

at all

familiar

with the Chinese language before you went there.

No when I didn't know how to say hello in Chinese which by the way

is Ni Hao and I'm sorry uh I'm

very forgetful but how long ago was that.

Okay

and so tell us about that very first experience.

Uh uh setting foot on the ground.

There

in China.

Well you

know

a very busy place.

You're speaking

specifically

and

primarily

about air

pollution or even garbage everywhere you walk or what.

No no not garbage everywhere you walk.

Uh I should have clarified that.

Yes I'm talking about air pollution and there is a lot of debate in China in terms of how healthy is

the food in

China you know.

So how many

years

total have

you

spent living in China.

Well Chris I.

Okay.

Sure I understand.

Uh well uh the one of the key.

Reasons we had you on today and by the way I want to let our listeners know that uh brother Joe isn't being

rude but it's a very sensitive issue when you have somebody living in a foreign country under

communist rule and so on it's it's uh pretty much a no -brainer.

Why you.

We have to be very careful at least to a degree.

But um facts from fiction.

Well what.

Uh to your knowledge or in your opinion are some frequently held

beliefs by Americans and perhaps even more specifically by American Christians that

you have found not to be true living in China.

Maybe you can get listeners to write in about uh let me

let me uh repeat our email address.

Right now so maybe they will send some in.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris a r n z e n gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private matter.

Maybe you're even listening in China and you want to ask a personal and private question or just a

question anonymously for that reason uh.

But if it's just a general question please uh as I said give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence.

But if you could continue now.

Sure the communist government.

In China.

Certainly.

And

there

are

many

uh uh

English

Bibles being

manufactured and printed in China.

Are they not that.

Yes that's true.

And in fact in China they they print.

Well typically in China.

In terms

of

what

the

either

the

NIV

or we

have a

listener.

Uh CJ from Lindenhurst Long Island New York asks.

I know that when the Soviet Union still existed there were the

underground churches and there were the puppet churches that were permitted but run

by the government or at least strictly controlled in various ways.

What is the situation in our present.

Day in China.

Okay that's a good question.

CJ well there are to

understand not only what the.

Situation.

Yes those and those churches would be first baptist church second baptist church and third baptism.

I'm sorry I'm only kidding.

That's a little baptist humor the the divisions amongst.

Baptists just a little joke there but go ahead.

I'm sorry that's one to

talk about is what I would call these

being Beijing

Shanghai uh.

Well going back to

um

CJ's

question

uh and

let me

add

a.

Little bit to the question with my own words in the in the time that you have

spent in China and the churches that you have entered into

and joined the folks for worship and fellowship and so on

uh have you come to a point where you're absolutely certain that these are not what one would call a puppet church

like those that existed in the Soviet Union.

Uh to give you to give you an example I can remember um I don't know if you recall Richard Wurmbrand.

He was a Christian that was persecuted by the Soviet Union and spent

years in the gulag and so forth.

Uh and he was very upset when Billy Graham visited the Soviet Union

and having been introduced to people who were involved in the government -controlled churches the

puppet churches.

Uh Richard Wurmbrand was furious because Billy Graham basically gave a report back to the United States that there was

no religious persecution in the Soviet Union and he was like you know he doesn't even know what he's talking about

because he was just being introduced to only the churches that were being controlled by the

government.

So what would be the situation there in China.

Are you pretty convinced that these are relatively free people worshiping as they uh

believe the bible teaches them to worship.

Or what's going on there in your opinion.

Well I think as I um complete the answer to Cedric

okay I'm actually the only reason I started speaking was I thought there was a pause of silence there.

Yeah I was just thinking if you

um the international

church the

main population of

Chinese

people minister to Chinese

people befriend Chinese people and so the church I go to has no.

So that that was

the China government allows that

as two

types being the

underground churches.

I think it would be worthwhile Chris for me to give a bit of history on how.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Because if we just say oh those would

in fact you will do that when we

come back from our first break now because I don't want to.

Interrupt you in mid -sentence.

Okay.

Uh if uh you anyone would like to join us again.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private

matter.

Don't go away.

God willing we will be right back with brother Joe and more of our discussion on China

facts and fiction and getting more information about the history and theological

climate of China.

We'll be back after these messages and send in your emails at chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

James White here co -founder of Alvin Omega Ministries.

An occasional.

Guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January

17th to the 19th 2019 where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme a

biblical understanding of missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Balcom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe,

Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event for more.

Details go to g3conference .com that's g3conference .com.

Chris Arnson host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Here I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

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My name is Steve Lawson founder and.

President of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students Andy Woodard serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church NYC.

They are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching

in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church NYC

again.

Their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

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Now we are back with our guest today brother joe.

And brother joe is separating fact from fiction when it comes to china uh

he is a christian american who has lived in china and he is also discussing

china's culture and religious climate.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the usa and you may wonder why i keep repeating that to give your first name city and state country

residence because you would not believe how many emails i get that just don't have any of that

information.

And the person isn't even uh requesting to be anonymous.

So that's why i repeat it.

Because people just need to be repeated have things repeated to them.

Um brother joe uh if you could pick up right where you left off.

You were going to give us a history behind the the main uh churches the different

uh levels.

Of

churches

or kinds of

churches

that

exist

in china

began

protests

began

to

develop in

22 they were

leading

toward

and

eventually

the

communists

won

that

war.

And in 1940

talking

about

the main

or in 1940

from china that

just removed

the foreigners

the

missionaries

from china were.

Their efforts made to eradicate the belief in churches from china by the government.

Who

was

in 1970 and

then

into

the

idea

that

he

needed

he

wanted to

wipe

away

an

anti

pretty

much like

nazi

germany.

Yeah

yes

it

became

very serious

governing

self

-supporting

and

self.

Right we don't want the government establishing our churches and in fact that's one of the the principal things that

uh is in the constitution of the united states that we will not establish.

A religion as a government.

Exactly.

And.

And not only that but when you

canary does

not

they're

just

doing

it.

Can

probably

understand

wanted

nothing

to

do

with

it and

there were other.

That's interesting right.

Or why.

And understand

except that

i mentioned earlier at least

in their

minds.

Oh great.

Now you did

it

we're going to have

hyper.

Preterists sending missionaries by the thousands over to china.

Now you know i knew you were going.

To say that chris thought about that before the show i said.

When i think when i talk about this chris is going to

mention preterism.

Well actually not as a solution.

I'm disheartened that they.

Might send people over there.

I am a partial preterist but i obviously uh believe in the visible physical

bodily return of christ and the resurrection of the dead at the last day.

But.

Amen.

So do

i.

Yeah and

i'm with you on

that.

Actually chris i

think i i.

Yes.

Well right.

So and there were americans as you may know who have been for

centuries uh very leery of roman catholics uh i

mean i actually probably exaggerated the length because probably in the majority of

the 20th century and 21st century that doesn't exist too much uh as far as the

reasons i'm giving now there were many americans that were leery of catholics because

they knew that they had a head who lived in another country uh rome and

that they had to have allegiance to this foreign leader.

And so therefore there was conflict.

There were people who uh radically opposed the candidacy and election of john f kennedy

for that reason.

Um but anyway i i digress if you could.

It's a good point chris.

And and said

is not mean and say how

do they

think in terms of

could happen what could happen were the wrong guy to be there

and and so.

That's that applies some

of them.

Chinese history.

What do you mean.

What if.

I'm talking politically here all right.

Well even on that score.

I mean there are many people who think he's a marxist and communist and so on.

But anyway.

Not

that they

would be

bothered by that in china

and in fact we have to pick up right where we

left.

Off because now we have to go to our midway break.

It's longer than most breaks because race life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of

us this long break between our major segments because they air their own commercials and public

service announcements some of which are required by the fcc because they have to localize the program

to lake city florida.

But if you have any questions take this time to write them now for brother joe and the

email address is chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com.

And please also write down the information of our advertisers because the more you

patronize our advertisers the longer they are likely to remain our advertisers and that

means the longer we are likely to remain on the air because we depend on our advertisers to exist due to

the money involved in sponsoring this program.

So uh once again if you have a question for brother joe on china our email address is chris arnson

at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the usa don't go away we'll be right back with brother.

Joe and more on china separating fact from fiction.

Hi

phil johnson here.

I'm executive director of.

John macarthur's media ministry grace to you and i'm also an occasional guest on iron sharpens

iron radio so i'm delighted that my friend chris arnson and i will be heading down to atlanta

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See you there.

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Before we uh return to our guest brother joe as we separate fact from fiction in regard

to china and learn more about its culture and theological climate both past and present.

We just have a couple of announcements to make.

First of all there's some exciting events coming up on friday september 7th

6 30 p .m at the gordon conwell theological seminary in

jacksonville florida their jacksonville campus.

I am involved in orchestrating an event with my dear friend of years dr james r white

of alpha omega ministries and his dear friend dr michael l brown of the line of fire

program.

They are going to be lecturing at gordon conwell theological seminary on the theme a house mended

christian unity in a culture of outrage.

If you want more details about this event go to one of the church websites that is sponsoring

this event with me that's switzerland communitychurch .org switzerlandcommunitychurch .org.

Then at switzerland community church the next night 6 30 p .m as well uh there is a

formal debate uh dr james r white and dr michael l brown are on the same team

and they will be debating two uh advocates of homosexuality

uh within christianity uh the theme is is homosexuality consistent

with new testament obedience.

And the debaters include on the other side uh reverend

ruth jensen forbell and pastor duane j robinson.

Uh this is as i said is being held again at 6 30 p .m eastern time at switzerland community church

on saturday the 8th of september.

If you want more details go to switzerlandcommunitychurch .org switzerland communitychurch .org.

Then coming up on november 9th and 10th the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their annual

quaker town conference on reform theology.

The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include david garner ray ortlund richard phillips timothy gibson

and carlton wynn.

It's being held at the grace bible fellowship church of quaker town.

If you would like to join me there november 9th and the 10th i will be manning an exhibitor's booth for radio there god

willing go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org click on events and then scroll down to

quaker town conference on reform theology.

Then coming up in january uh january the 17th through

the 19th which is a thursday through saturday the g3 conference returns to atlanta

georgia more specifically college park georgia a suburb of atlanta at the georgia international

convention center this january.

The theme is the mission of god a biblical understanding of missions.

This is my third iron sharpens iron radio exhibitors booth at the g3 conference

which stands for gospel grace and glory.

And by the way there is a spanish and bilingual event that is being held on

wednesday january 16th.

If you are a spanish -speaking person or if you know of spanish speaking and bilingual people who would like to attend it is

wednesday january 16th but for the english -speaking conference from the 17th through the 19th the

speakers include dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries paul washer john piper

stephen j lawson vody balcom mark dever conrad m bayway tim

challis phil johnson of the executive director of john macarthur's ministry.

Grace to you todd freel of wretched tv and wretched radio stephen j nichols the president

of reformation bible college the college founded by the late r .c. sproll and ligonier ministries and many more are on that lineup.

If you'd like to register go to g3 conference .com g3 conference .com.

And i would strongly suggest that you also if you have a business or a parachurch ministry that you want to promote to a

large audience they are expecting between four and five thousand people.

So i strongly urge you to register also for an exhibitor's booth.

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And we are back with brother joe and brother joe before the break.

As you may recall you were talking about the political reasons that seem to be the

primary cause for the chinese government to be suspicious about roman

catholics because they swear an allegiance to a pope which is a leader in a.

Foreign

country.

Yes i'll work

in with my.

And that

they were willing in

that

case from the hierarchy

china

government

chinese.

And then

you have

hinduism

shintoism

sweden

borgianism

arminianism.

I can't think of it in a second.

Well you can come back to that.

Yeah i'll come back to it.

Um i think there's five and not four.

I'm pretty sure there's so.

You're saying that hinduism is illegal in china.

Yes hinduism is not an acknowledged religion.

Really either.

China government.

Neither is okay.

Um i'm trying to think

of what that other religion

could

be.

Uh you got.

My curiosity brewing here.

But uh let me know when you have completed a thought because i do want to try to get some glitzter questions in.

Oh i'm sorry it's islam of course.

Oh that's that's that's acceptable.

Okay that is interesting because and i'll i'll i'll bring that to your attention.

Well let me bring it up now if you don't mind.

Uh we have arnie in perry county pennsylvania.

Uh who says.

I have heard it confirmed from florida senator marco rubio

that the chinese government has detained possibly millions of muslims in

china.

And these would be chinese muslims not foreign muslims who are immigrants there.

Uh does this mean that the chinese government is also going

to be preparing to be heavy -handed with christians as well.

In

your

opinion the china

government

put that one is inherently better than the other long

-standing

chinese heritage.

Friends

in

china.

Who

happened is

typically in china.

And that is true chris that there have been certain

in the chinese government

thing.

And in terms of by

the way can you can you uh clarify

if you know why is it that the chinese government has detained

possibly millions

of

muslims

in

china its

own

incident and

not necessarily

even

against the

china government.

You know.

You want to you want to be sure you know.

Okay um i don't know if you

did.

You want

to move on with that.

Same issue or do you want me to take a listener.

Another listener question.

Well why don't i give.

You

why don't

i give you

like

and then take

a listener

question and eventually

and uh

you

know

and i think

this incarnate of jesus

and always

always

a good red light

that should go

off in your your mind.

Well that's the thing chris.

You would think so.

Right.

You would think so.

And yet in

china

for

go one of

the

disadvantages

of there's

something very

wrong.

China

government

as this was at

the

mcdonald's

franchise.

Yes the real

mcdonald's franchise.

The china government.

To

be done.

Now we have to

go to our last

break

that's going

to be a

lot briefer

than the last.

One if anybody wants to send in a question do it now because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be back after these messages with more of brother joe and our discussion on china.

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James white here co -founder of alvin omega ministries and occasional guest on iron sharpens iron radio.

I'm so delighted my friend chris arnson will be heading down to atlanta for the next g3 conference.

From january 17th to the 19th 2019 we'll all be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers

on the theme a biblical understanding of missions.

Speakers include john piper steve lawson vody baucom mark dever conrad mbewe

phil johnson josh bice yours truly and many more.

I hope you all join chris and me for this phenomenal event.

For more details go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

My name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries.

As well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries i serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of

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welcome back.

This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the entirety.

Of the program is brother joe and we are talking about china separating fact from fiction.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question i would do it now because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

And joe if you could pick up where you left off and then we will try to get to as many of our listeners waiting uh as

we possibly can.

Fit into

the

time.

Okay

uh why

don't i

just

close

out

what

i was

saying.

I mentioned

it.

Okay

well.

We have susan margaret in dauphin county pennsylvania and she wants to know if it's

fact or fiction that you should not put your grandmother's china in a microwave.

Well that's different kind of china.

I'm only kidding she didn't ask that.

Her real question.

Her real question is what can the average christian expect when

they arrive on the shores of china.

Should they expect to freely pass out tracks on street corners.

Are most christian activities done openly without fear of persecution and prosecution

or are there things that still need to be done.

Covertly and

secretively

china government cares about

is organized.

The

china

government is really

wanted

to.

China

not

only

has.

They're

not wise

to do it.

Now.

Let's say

a

pastor

is

preaching.

About uh the the sins of atheism

or something to that effect calling upon the government to repent of atheism

asking people in the congregation to pray that the leaders of china become saved by the

mercy of god and become christians and abandon their atheism that kind of thing.

What would that be considered.

Uh you know.

Um a traitorism or what.

How would

that.

How

would

that be viewed.

We'll

hear the

gospel.

Okay

uh

let's

see.

Here we

have.

Um john and banger main who wants to know he says.

I'm sorry i tuned.

In late i was wondering what was the difference between how christians may have been

persecuted before the rise of communism in china.

Uh persecution i'm speaking of particularly perhaps by those of native religions in china

other than christianity.

And when the rise of communism came what was there.

Any different level of severity of persecution was one more severe.

Than the

other the

primary

difference

would potentially one difference that

recommend people to read about hudson taylor and he

had a lot of

success.

And he got the heat from uh american christians for that or was it british.

That's true you

know i guess

the long

ponytail might have been up for grabs on that.

Unless you're in the pca.

But anyway um we have sorry

we have uh we have uh.

Harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania.

Who wants to know what is the most thriving theological group or denomination

or association or fellowship amongst.

In

china.

Yes

uh

you

know

if if

uh 80 10 to 20

of

the 2010.

In

china is he

had

entered

and uh

we have

ronald in

eastern

suffolk

county

long

island

new york.

Uh ronald

in

eastern

suffolk.

County long island new york says if things are as free as you say they are in china why does.

An underground church exist.

And why is it the most flourishing.

Oh well you basically were saying.

That as long as you're not doing things that are drawing too much attention yourself unless you're not

passing out tracks in public or or contradicting the government uh being

communist.

Being got it got it.

Yeah that's that's actually a good question.

And it was following up on

ship

the

emphasis.

Okay

we have

lou

from

sharpsburg

georgia.

I have

heard that

there is

widespread.

Women leadership in the chinese churches.

Is that because the chinese christian men.

Are

not

stepping

up

or

some

other

reason.

There can be

advantage.

And

uh i

heard.

Well

we

have

to.

Go on to our final.

We have to go into our final question now.

Johnny from queens new york.

Uh with so many fringe quote unquote.

Christian ministries that's fringe ministries.

And our reach.

And our reaches outreaches.

I think he meant to say influencing chinese churches with unbiblical experiences and teachings.

How can the west be used to equip the underground chinese church with more faithful biblical teaching to ground them in a

solid biblical understanding.

Well first.

Of all

we have to think of chinese leaders is incredible.

I've seen some of that done but there needs to be much more done

and western men who have more.

I think that's one thing.

Well we

are.

Out of time brother joey and uh i just want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to

write.

I want to thank you brother joe for being our guest today.

I want to uh tell all of you that i hope that you have a safe and wonderful and joyful

weekend and lord's day.

And i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you

are a sinner.