A Muslim Convert from Afghanistan Joins James today

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Fearing for his life as well as that of his family "Peter" shares his testimony of faith in Christ on today's show. His powerful testimony of faith resulting from a New Testament that was given to his father by a missionary medical doctor is amazing. Facing family rejection as well as persecution "Peter" fled to the UK where he still faces danger.

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. . . . . series of good debate opponents, and Jason Wallace and the folks up at Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City do a tremendous job in arranging these things, and so that's where we'll be.
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So we should, yeah, should have a program on Thursday night the 3rd, and should have one a week from today,
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Tuesday the 1st, April Fool's Day, on the subject, here on The Dividing Line, should have one, should be back from Illinois, unless, you know, something happens, you never know, have to admit when you travel today, especially at this time of year, a time of war, you do consider more than you have in the past what happened on 9 -11, not that I'm afraid to fly at all, but what happens if you get someplace and then something happens, in the sense of a terrorist attack or something like that, somewhere in the
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United States, and the same type of thing happens in the grounding of airliners, and you're, you know, 1 ,500 miles, 2 ,000 miles from home, you know, that's not a comfortable position to be in.
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So that does cross the mind once in a while, and so anyways, hopefully, the line is ringing there, and that means something,
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I hope, that hopefully we're getting through, and something's gonna take place here, we'll be able to begin the actual portion of the program, all right, excellent, we are gonna be able to do our subject today,
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I would imagine there is an exceptional amount of telephone traffic, not only regular business traffic, but also because of so much of what's going on overseas, it's probably pretty difficult to get through, we probably should have started a little earlier than we did, but anyways, let me know when we're all set up and ready to go, and we will be able to have our program today on the subject.
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Okay, excellent, well let's go ahead and get started then, because we wanted to have as much possible time as we could.
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I'm joined on the phone, let's make sure we can hear each other real well. Peter, are you able to hear me?
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It's Martin at the moment, James, you're very faint, could you turn up a little bit on your end? Well, I'll have to let somebody else do that,
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I have no control over those things, but I'm sure Rich can try to touch up those things, are you able to hear me any better now?
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A little bit, I'll pass you over to Peter now, James. Okay, thank you. Okay, God bless. Thank you. Hello, Peter.
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Hello. Hello, how are you, sir? Hi, I'm fine, and you? I'm doing quite well, thank you for joining us today.
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Let me just introduce you a little bit. Peter is joining us mainly because your friend there,
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Martin, came into our chat channel a little over a week ago and shared with us his excitement at having heard your testimony of faith in Christ, and I asked if you would be willing to share your story with our listeners.
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We have a number of people listening now, and then these programs are archived and people get to listen to these programs for quite some time in the future as well, so hopefully the
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Lord will bless our time here together. Could you share a little bit with us what your background is, a little bit about your family, where you were born, things like that?
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Well, I was born in Afghanistan in a Muslim family, and at the age of 4, we came to Pakistan because of our business ties with Pakistan and other things like this, and there
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I was sent to have Islamic education in the mosque and in schools, and then at the age of 5,
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I started going to a primary school, and then I studied there in my village primary school, and then in a high school, and then in a district college, and then
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I went to study in a university, and there I completed my civil engineering, and after that, it was 992 when
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I completed my civil engineering, and then I wanted to study further to get a master degree in engineering to be a teacher in the university.
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And it was in 94 that I will say that God really blessed me, and through His grace and mercy,
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He saved me. We had a New Testament in our home, which was given to my father from missionary.
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I will say he was a doctor, but the people didn't know that he was a missionary, but he was working in a medical mission, and he was coming to visit my family, and he was a friend of my father, and he gave my father the
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New Testament. And I'm sure he never read the New Testament. First time in 88 that I wanted to read the
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New Testament, because you know that in Islam, they believe in these books, but not that they say that after the
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Quran came, all the books, they believe that all the books are not valid now, they're canceled.
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Now Peter, let me ask you, so this man was a, he did medical work, but he was also a
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Christian, and it was like a medical mission. Was this a New Testament that was printed in your native language type of a thing?
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Yes, it was in our native language, yeah. Okay, so it was easy for you to understand, and it was given to him.
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I think you just said that you don't believe that your father ever ever read that New Testament? That's right, yeah.
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Right, and what made you desire to read it?
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Oh, just in 88, you see, I was looking for some books, and I find the New Testament in the bookshelf, and these were our holidays, and I wanted to read some books, and so I wanted to read it, and my father said, no, you can't read it.
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But really, that before, in 88, before that, you see, there were questions in my heart and in my mind, many questions about that, as the
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Muslim people, they, even they do not know that why they are Muslim, just they're born in a Muslim home, and they are circumcised, and these things, and they're just, they're
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Muslim. They say that they're Muslim, they don't know, and many of them, they never take this courage, or you say that response, they do not understand that this is their responsibility to give attention to their eternal life, but our
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Muslim brothers and friends, they never do this. And so I was having this sort of question.
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So you started, when you started reading the New Testament, did you just sort of start with the beginning and read through to the end?
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How did you do it? In 88, you see, I was told by my father not to read it, but then as well, a little bit earlier as well,
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I was mentioning that in 94. At that time, you see,
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I was again looking for some other books, and I find that New Testament, and I decided to read it secretly, because I was not allowed to read it.
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I do not wanted to tell a lie to my father, but still I decided in my heart that I must read this book, and I'm sure that this was
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God who attracted my heart to read his word. Yeah. So you started, you just started with Matthew and just read straight through?
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Yeah, I started with Matthew and just, I read through, but when you go through in Chapter 5 and Chapter 6, the blessed are those and blessed are, you see, the
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Beatitudes, but especially the second time, I finished, once I finished reading it, and second time,
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I want to study it in more detail. And every verse, every word, and every book was speaking so powerfully to me, but especially at that time,
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I was just thinking that this is my future, this is my destiny, and this is my eternal life where I am heading towards, but I knew that if I accept
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Lord Jesus Christ, what's going to happen to me? And I was just, when
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I reached the book of Philippians, Philippians 1, 21, that where Paul said that for to me to live is
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Christ and to die is gain. So I thought this is the word which is especially for me.
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It is Philippians 1, 21, and further on is 1, 22, that if I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me, yet what shall
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I choose? I do not know. I am torn in between, I am torn between the two.
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I desire to depart and be with the Christ, which is the better by far.
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But I, at that time, I decided that if I follow this way, this is what's going to happen to me.
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I have to leave my family. But I prayed to God one night, that God, if this is the true way, and if you want to save me, please show me and show me now.
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And God really answered my prayer, which I am going to share with you how he answered my prayer. Yes, please.
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Yeah, it was in the 12 o 'clock, in my home, I was just sitting outside of our home, because our home's there, our area's a little bit cold, it's not like warm area, it's northern area and cold.
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It was in November, that when I just sat, I couldn't sleep really,
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I was feeling uncomfortable. I just sat under the light in a veranda of our house, and it was cold night, and I just prayed that God, if this is true way, and you want to save me, please show me and show me now, through your supernatural power.
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And really, at that moment, I felt, I just slumbered. I felt somebody coming, putting his hand upon my shoulder and saying to me that, son,
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Jesus is Lord. At that time, I didn't realize that, and I said in a loud voice that,
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Jesus is Lord. And when my mother heard this, she came out of her room, she said to me, what happened to you?
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I was full of joy, I went back to my room, and I just had a nice and good sleep that night.
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Now, let me ask you something, because this is important for, I think, a lot of Christians to hear.
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You did not have a missionary or a teacher to be guiding you through these things, you simply had the
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Word of God. Yeah, because there is no church in our area, and no missionary people, because this is potentially very dangerous there.
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There are some missionaries who are working as in some NGOs, or in some hospitals, or they're helping people, but people do not know that they're
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Christians. You see, this is really, I wish that the people who have these opportunities to listen to the
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Gospel in the churches, in their schools. In Afghanistan, there are no such opportunities.
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Even in Pakistan, there are some churches, but not in the area near Afghanistan and Pakistan border. And we were just near Pakistan and Afghanistan border, we were living there.
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And so, even the people who are here in this country, in the UK, I'm in the
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UK now, and the people, they are taking it for granted. They have good opportunity, no persecution, but still they are not going to churches.
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And they do not realize their responsibility, that they are going to die. And one day, they will be standing before the throne of the
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Lord. Yes. This is really supernatural, that God helped me through His Word.
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Oh, it is incredible to hear that, because so many people, unfortunately, in Western nations question the clarity and ability of the
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Word of God to do exactly what the Word of God did in your life. And it's a sad thing.
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So now, knowing, even as you were considering this, you understood,
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I'm sure, Jesus' teachings about taking up the cross and following Him and counting the cost of discipleship.
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You had to be thinking about those things, knowing how difficult it would be. And then, when you confess that Jesus is
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Lord, what happened, how long did it take before your family learned of what the
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Lord had done in your life? Oh yeah, the same morning, you see, when my father get up, usually he came to my room and he said to me that, oh, get up, it's time to your prayer.
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You know that Muslim friends, they are praying five times a day. And early in the morning, you see, my father used to come in.
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As usual, he came to my room and he said to me that, wake up, it's your prayer time. And I said, at that time, it was first ever in my life that I said no to my father.
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In our culture, sons, the daughters, the children, and especially younger, even to your younger elder brother, you are obedient, you can't say no.
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If you say no, it's not good, and people will look down at you. So I said, no, I can't pray.
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He said, why? I said, I'm not a Muslim. He said, what are you now? I said, I'm Christian. And then he left his prayer and he came to my mother and he said, look, your this son is going to die.
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And I just laughed because, oh, I wish that people could experience this test which
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I experienced. How God saved me out of that darkness and how he taught me to believe in the cross that the blood of Lord Jesus Christ has cleansed me.
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Before that, I was a good Muslim. I was a devout Muslim. I was praying five times a day.
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I wanted to be good. I was helping people. But according to the
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Islamic doctrine, I never felt, I never had assurance that I'm going to be saved.
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But the first day, I did nothing. Just I opened my heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and invited him to come in, and he came in and he saved me.
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Oh, what a lovely day that was. Oh, I imagine. And so, the first words of your father then to your mother is that you were going to die?
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Yeah, because my father was a tribal elder in Afghanistan. We have a tribal system and some people are tribal elders because they are deciding the people's cases and they are resolving their disputes among their own tribe.
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And it was also the question of his honor that if his son became a
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Christian, how people are going to trust him and how he's going to be effective in their tribe.
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But he did go to mosque, and then in the afternoon, I didn't.
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Five times, I didn't go to mosque. And in the nighttime, the Muslim leader who is leading the prayer, he came to my home and he asked me that, why you didn't come to mosque?
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I explained to him and he went there and he announced in the mosque. And the next day, my mother said to me, as mothers, they love us.
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And she said to me that, I do not want you to be killed, so it's better to leave your home.
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So I left my home the next day. It was 18th of November 1994.
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Where did you go? I didn't know where to go. But before this my decision, there is a long history that how
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I come to how I had contact. But I was wandering here and there.
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Before that, before my conversion, I met a missionary lady. She is from a Western country and she was working there.
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But at that time, I was just studying in the phase of studies. And just she came and where I was going, she came and she sat in the same van with me and I asked her that, what brings you here?
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She said, just a visit. And I asked her, are you a Christian? She said, no, no, I'm not a Christian. It was just in the early months of 94.
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But in April 94, I saw her in another town. I was just there.
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She was parking her car and I just ran toward her and she invited me in and she gave me water and I saw
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Christian literature and books. So she was very helpful to me. I asked her to give me Bible.
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She gave me a Bible. But and then ultimately I had no place to go.
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But I was just praying one day with one friend and another day. If they knew that I became a
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Christian, so they said, sorry friend, we love you, but you can't come because of the society's pressure. And so I again,
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I have to go to that missionary lady. And she was helping me in praying, in literature, and encouraging.
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And then I started speaking to the people about my faith. I just couldn't keep silent.
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And many of my friends said that, look, you need to keep silent. It's not, it's dangerous for you,
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I said. No. If I am living among Muslims, because everywhere, if I left my village,
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I went to another village, I went to another place. And if I am living among Muslims, I have to pray. And if I'm not saying that I am
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Christian, I have to pray. How I can do this, that believing in the Lord Jesus and praying to a
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God who is not a living God. So I just started sharing my faith with people, especially to my closest friends, who were, who either they were students with me in the college, or friends of the university.
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And I started speaking to them. And then this was a ministry that in the tribal area, with this tribal belt between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that I was sharing the good news of Jesus' grace and His mercy, and just that missionary lady was helping me, she was giving me
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Bibles to distribute among the people. And we distributed thousands of Bibles among the people, and many of our friends, they came to know the
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Lord, and many have to leave the country. So this ministry you begin, how long were you able to do this, and what was the eventual outcome of it?
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Yeah, I started this ministry mainly from 95, just after my conversion and my baptism.
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I started this ministry, it was not a ministry in one particular place. We were going village to village, and in small population, because in that tribal area, people are mostly living in small population, and it was very difficult for me to go to cities where the, where people know me.
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Especially after 96, when a case was registered against me, blasphemy case was registered against me in a police station.
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And after that, I mostly, I spent my time wandering to be, you see, a triumph for the
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Lord here and there, and a carrier of the message of salvation. And then we were, one day we were going to one village, and just making relationship with the people, and next time we were coming with Bibles.
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But it was very hard to take more than 50 Bibles for each person, because it was quite heavy.
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And so one of my friends, who was a Muslim teacher, he was teaching in a
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Muslim mosque, and he came to know Lord Jesus Christ, and then he was going with me.
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And sometime we were two, sometime we were three. And the people response, believe me my brother, that people, they do not know the theology of the cross, because they are misguided by their own leader.
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And when they were having Bibles in their own languages, and when they were reading it, and they were saying that, oh, this is quite different what we are being told.
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And the people who were once challenged for us, and they were friends of us, and then they were coming to faith in Lord Jesus, and just they were opening their houses, their hearts, and their minds, and their houses, and their everything, for the gospel work.
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But still we were having opposition. You can understand at that time, it was very hard time, especially, it was after 95, there was
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Taliban time, and it was very difficult there. So did you encounter members of the
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Taliban? Mostly, we were very careful. But sometime we were having people, you see, once in 96,
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I was just alone at that time, and they opened fire on me. But God delivered me out of that fire.
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It was in the evening time that they opened fire on me, and they called me, they said that, look, they called my name, and they said that, look, now that's time that you are going to die.
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Say that, repent, and come back to your old faith. I said, huh. And then again, this verse reminded me that for me to live with Christ and to die again.
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So I said, if I live, this is also Christ. If I die, so I long to be with the
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Christ. But God saved me. So how long were you able to do this?
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What eventually brought an end to what you were doing there on the border of Pakistan -Afghanistan?
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I did this, you see, for a couple of years until 2000,
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October 2000. Then I moved to the UK, and we were doing the same work until October 90th, sorry.
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From 96th and 90th, and in 90th, when I came to a city to meet that missionary lady,
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I was arrested. You were arrested in, was it Afghanistan or Pakistan? No, in the
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Pakistani side, not in Afghanistan. If I was arrested in Afghanistan side, they won't arrest me, they will kill me there, but I was arrested by Pakistani side, yeah.
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I see. And what happened when you were arrested? Yeah, I was under remand, judicial remand, physical remand for six days, and the charge was blessed for me.
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The charge, you see, they took this charge against me in 96th in a local police station. A religious leader took this charge against me, because as many people know that in a country like Pakistan, this is a easy thing to accuse people.
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One person will go and they will lodge a report against him, and many people will become witnesses.
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As people in the world know that what's going on, this is an easy way to get rid of Christian people.
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So for six days, I was on judicial remand, and it was a very difficult time for me, but God kept me through that time, and they were asking me that, tell us, why you are speaking against our religion and our prophet?
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And my answer was, I never spoke against anybody. I'm speaking for Christ. I have nothing to do with anybody.
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But still, one of the officers, who was interrogation officer, and after six days, they went and they were able to get three days more physical remand, judicial remand, and totally for ten days.
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And then on that, on the seventh day, when they took this more remand from a court, and they came back in the nighttime, and again they wanted to interrogate me, and that police officer,
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I'm not going to mention his name, he's still there, he's still in the police, and he said to me that, look, why are you, why are you after your life?
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You know that they will give you death. So I said to him that, no problem, if I am on a true way,
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God will help me. And he said to me that, what you are preaching, I said that, you see, look, you have my
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Bible, you have confiscated my Bible, go and read my Bible. If there is anything against anybody in this country,
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Bible is against the ruler of darkness, against the Satan, and it's the God message of salvation for the people.
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So he said to me, I see nothing wrong with you. You are not guilty of anything, and you are just innocent.
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I am going to help you. So how he helped me, I'm not, I can't mention it here, but he, by the help of God, I escaped the prison.
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And after that, it was very difficult for me, and I was even unable to come to meet missionary people.
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So, but still, God was using me tremendously there in our area, in these tribal belt, and sometime in government area as well, because in the villages, there is not always the police, but it was not a permanent place, but was from one place to other.
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So how did you get from there to the UK? Through the help of God and those missionary people, they sponsored me to go to the
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UK. I see, how long have you been there now? Last time I came to this country, just a year ago.
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A year ago, okay. And so, what are you doing now?
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I mean, there's obviously a very large, growing population of Muslims in the
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United Kingdom and Britain, and I would assume that you have desire to share with them.
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So what kind of challenges are you facing now? Oh yeah, let me explain to you that when last year
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I came to live in a city where I am living now, I just looked down the window and I saw
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Muslim population, Muslim shops, Muslim people, and I just thought that, oh Lord, oh, you must, this must be
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God's plan and purpose for me to bring work here, because I never thought that... I was coming to the
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UK, but I never thought that I am going to be in an area where there is Muslim population, and mostly from Afghanistan, from Pakistan, and from Yemen countries,
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Arab countries like Yemen and Bangladesh. So I started going to church, where I'm going now, last year in February, but between February and the first week of March, I was just feeling very uncomfortable.
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I thought that, how I can reach these people? Still, there were some problems, because I was told by my friends, my missionary friends, that be careful here, because the people there are same here.
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But in March, I couldn't help. I just went to ask a missionary friend of mine that, can you please give me some leaflets?
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And I just started going door -to -door in the Muslim population, and it won't finish. And then other brothers who are engaged in missionary work among Muslims here, you see, we are together, we are now going door -to -door and meeting people and making relationships with them and share the good news with them.
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That's wonderful. So this is an ongoing ministry you have. Does some of this witnessing take place in your native tongue?
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Are you able to talk with a lot of these folks in the language from where you are from?
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Actually, by the grace of God, I can speak two or three Afghan languages, and three
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Pakistani languages as well. So I can't speak Arabic, but I can read and write
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Arabic, and I can understand, I can speak, and hopefully God will help me to speak as well. But this is tremendous that we are sharing
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Gospel with them in their own language, and God is really bringing this missionary field to us here, and it's a good opportunity.
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And we are also trying, in some way or other, we are able to get literature in their own languages as well.
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So you have sufficient resources as far as Bibles and literature in the language of these folks, or is that still a major need?
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Yeah, that's a major need as well, but to an extent, some of us, we are able to ask some bookshops here, booksellers here in this country, and they are able to send to us, but still we need prayer then.
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Yes. Now, over here in the United States, in fact, someone just mentioned this in our chat channel, we've heard of the
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Speaker's Corner. I've heard of various folks who do work with Muslims in the
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London area speak of the Speaker's Corner, where there are dialogues, or I guess public debates, with Muslims over issues.
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Are you familiar with that? Sorry? Are you familiar with the Speaker's Corner?
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No, no, I never heard about them. So do you have, is most of the work you do then one -on -one with people in their homes, or are there discussions that develop out on the streets there in the
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UK, or how does that normally work? Actually, we are having, we are reaching people on their doors, mostly we are knocking at their doors and we are reaching them there, but for example, we are also having a really good relationship with the people from Afghanistan background.
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They are working here, they are working on the shops, and so we are meeting them and we are speaking to them in the shops, in the streets, and on door -to -door.
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What kind of, certainly, has the Muslim population there, especially the very strong believing
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Muslims, are they coming against you, are they resisting that kind of work? Yeah, mostly some of them, they are not happy with this, but we pray to God that whenever I am, they are asking me that, you see, you are from, because when they look to me, they can know that I am from their own background, and they are asking me question, and their first question is that, are you
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Christian, are you Muslim? I say, I'm Christian, from Muslim background, and then they say, why you become a Christian then?
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Because they never said that, how you become a Christian? Their question is, why you become a Christian? And then,
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I'm sharing my testimony with them, and then they are asking me questions, as the most
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Muslim have about the Jesus, Lord Jesus' death, His resurrection, and the authenticity of Bible, and so we are having these type of very good discussions, and many of them, they are quite open and receptive, and, but everybody is going to receive the literature, the
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God's Word, and I hope that, as God worked in my life, somebody give New Testament to my father before my birth, and then, this was a seed, which was planted through the
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Word of God, and God used that, His Word to save me, and I'm, I'm sure that somebody is going to read there, and they will read there, and God will really speak to them, and if you can pray for them, it will be good.
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Yes. Well, it's an amazing thing to think of the the mercy that the Lord has shown to you, and His grace towards you.
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It's true for any of us, but when you see that against the stark background of the context in which you are in, it's truly amazing.
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In just a couple minutes, in about eight minutes, we're gonna take a brief break, and then if our listeners would like to participate in the program, maybe ask some questions as to how you can reach out to your
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Muslim neighbors if there are issues we haven't addressed yet, we will invite you to participate in the program today at 877 -753 -3341.
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That is toll -free, at least in the United States it is, 877 -753 -3341, and I would invite folks to get online early so that we don't try to have to rush people in at the end.
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Now, as we're opening the phone lines to folks, I wanted to ask a question of you. First of all, before you read the
38:57
New Testament, before you had an opportunity to read what the Scriptures actually say about Christ, what had you heard or been taught as a
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Muslim concerning Jesus? What was your understanding of Him before you read the
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New Testament? Actually, the Muslim understanding, as I studied
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Hadith and the Quran by interpretation, and I memorized a lot of Quran, and the usual Muslim belief about Jesus is that that He's a prophet.
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And they do not believe that His Sonship and His Deity, because they are attacking the concept of Sonship in a physical sense.
39:47
Right. Yeah, and so they believe that the Bible, Torah, Gospel, and Psalms, and other books of the prophets, they are revealed books, but they believe that when
40:05
Quran was revealed, these books are not valid now.
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They are cancelled. But they even do not know about their own religion, because Quran never mentioned that these books are not valid now.
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So the perspective presented in the Quran, in the
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Hadith of Jesus, especially when the Quran has
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Allah speaking to Jesus and saying, I never told you,
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I never said to you, or you never said that anyone should worship you or your mother, those types of sections, that was pretty much all you knew about Christ, was what you read in the
40:54
Quran and in the Hadith then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, someone just asked me on channel, was it illegal for your father to have that New Testament in the house?
41:07
Is it illegal to own any type of Christian literature, or is it just discouraged?
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You see, in an Islamic country like Afghanistan, it was quite illegal to have a
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Bible in the home. But in Pakistan, it is not illegal.
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People can read, people can have these books in home. But when they believe in these books, they announce that they are believing in these books, and they are just finishing
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Islamic practices. So it is included in Islamic law, according to Islamic law, it is prohibited that if a person converts from Islam to other religion, this is
41:53
Islamic decree that he must be killed. So it is still, even to this day, the law, the official law of Pakistan, that a convert should not be allowed to live?
42:07
Actually, this is not in Pakistani law, but in some area, like in northwestern frontier province area of Pakistan, there is an area where they have self -declared
42:19
Sharia law. I see. And so in the area, but still, as long as I know, as long as I was told, they say that a conversion from one religion to other, it means that they consider it as anti -state activity.
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But still, many Muslims, they are coming to faith in Lord Jesus Christ. Now, I understand what
42:39
Sharia is, but probably a lot of our listeners don't. Could you explain briefly what Sharia is?
42:46
Yeah, Sharia is the Sharia mean, the
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Islamic law, because if in an area there are
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Sharia laws, the court system will be based on Islamic law system, and the punishments will be
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Islamic. For example, for stealing, your hand will be cut off.
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Right. And for murder, you will be killed. The tooth for tooth and eye for eye, this is the
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Sharia law. Isn't it the desire of very faithful Muslims who believe strongly in the in the
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Quran and the Hadith to see Sharia established across the world? Yes, yes, this is their desire, the most they desire, that if there is a
43:35
Sharia law, they will get justice. And so isn't that important for those of us in non -Muslim countries to recognize that that is the ultimate desire of the of the faithful Muslim, is to see
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Sharia established wherever they are? Yeah, I don't think so that we should, non -Muslim countries should recognize that the
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Sharia law should be recognized, because in Sharia law, there are some laws which are used very cruelly against humanity, as the example of Afghanistan.
44:12
Do you think that in Afghanistan, what Taliban were doing, was it according to the human respect, according to humanity?
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These are human things. Right. Well, that's definitely something to keep in mind. Folks, we're gonna take a brief break.
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Stay right there, Peter. We're gonna invite folks to give us a call, 877 -753 -3341.
44:35
We'll be taking your phone calls, don't delay. What is
44:50
Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free? A New Cult? Secularism?
44:56
False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
45:02
Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.
45:10
In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.
45:17
It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.
45:25
In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme
45:32
Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the
45:37
Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the
45:42
Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomin .org.
45:50
This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.
46:01
The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the
46:08
Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning
46:14
Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m.
46:22
on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805
46:29
North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.
46:36
If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org,
46:44
where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
46:50
Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book
46:56
The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true
47:04
Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.
47:18
You can order your copy of James White's book The King James Only Controversy by going to our website at www .aomin
47:26
.org. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the
47:32
Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ, elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.
47:41
In his book Mary, Another Redeemer, James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.
47:50
He traces how Mary of the Bible, esteemed mother of the Lord, obedient servant, and chosen vessel of God, has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed
47:59
Queen of Heaven, viewed as co -mediator with Christ, and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the
48:06
Roman Catholic Church. Mary, Another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the
48:11
Bible calls blessed among women, and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth.
48:17
You can order your copy of James White's book Mary, Another Redeemer at www .aomin .org.
48:30
And welcome back to Dividing Line, my name is
48:45
James White. Today we have a special guest calling from the United Kingdom. We want to thank
48:50
Martin for allowing this to happen and making this happen.
48:56
I know that transcontinental or transatlantic phone calls are not cheap, and so we are very thankful for him providing
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Peter to us to talk to us about the grace of God. God has his people all across this world, the gospel is a powerful thing and it is a true joy to hear of the
49:15
New Testament in the language of the people, being used by the
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Spirit of God to bring faith, to testify of Jesus Christ, and we have a number of people online.
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Before we go to our phone callers, I want to ask one more thing of Peter. There are many people in in our country,
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Peter, I deal with this all the time, who do not have any, they don't believe that it's important to know about things like the accuracy of the
49:51
Bible, the fact that the Bible has been transmitted to us over time in such a way that we can trust it, the deity of Christ, the evidence for the resurrection.
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There are many people in our land who feel that to talk about those things, to study those things, to understand those things, is really to sort of miss what's important, and they just don't think that's really important stuff, and yet you were forced by nature of what your background was and what your conversion involved to basically become an apologist, a person who has answers to those things, almost immediately.
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You very quickly had to come to understand why you could believe the Bible, why you could believe in the resurrection.
50:42
Speak to us, if you could, about how important those things are when you're seeking to share with the
50:49
Muslim people. Yeah, mostly when we are going to share the
50:56
Gospel with the Muslim people, you know that they already believe in God. This is just, they know that they believe in God, but in a different way.
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But mostly when we are going and we are having discussion with the people who do not believe in God, so this is more difficult.
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But still I say to the people that the Muslim people, they believe in God, but I ask them that, are you sure if you have to die today and you have to stand before the throne of God, what is the point that God will let you to heaven?
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And they say, we don't know. So this proves from them that they are not sure about their salvation.
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But for me, I'm sure about my salvation because Jesus, nobody in the history, in the history of the human being, and nobody will be like Him that who was raising the dead.
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Muslim people believe that Jesus raised the dead. They believe that He healed the sick.
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They believe this, but they do not believe that He is the God. But what God told me, through His Spirit, that Jesus is
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God, because no human being can raise the dead.
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No human being, most of all, that He came to this earth and He died for my sin.
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He shed His blood on the cross to reconcile the humanity, the lost humanity to God.
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And He died for everybody, for you, for me. And this was the point that I thought that I am a good
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Muslim, I think, but I'm not sure that I'm going to be heaven. And only one way, that Jesus is going to give me the guarantee of salvation through His death.
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The Muslim people with whom you speak, when you talk to them about sin, there really isn't any, there isn't anything in the
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Quran, and I mean, certainly Allah's called merciful and things like that, and there's the things you do, the pilgrimages and the prayers and things like that, but I think we all know that just doing those kinds of things does not give any kind of assurance to someone.
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It doesn't start a relationship between that person and God.
53:32
When you talk to them about eternal life and knowing God, what kind of reactions do you get from them when you talk to them about those things?
53:44
Yeah, when we ask them that, do you know God, they say that, yes, we know God, we have a relationship with Him.
53:51
But when we ask them that, do you have a personal relationship with Him, they say that no, because they're silent.
53:58
And still some Muslims, they are very angry, they say that, you see, look, we know God. But still, why they are angry?
54:05
They want to, they do not want to show us their own need. They know that, they feel that there is a need inside them to know
54:16
God and to believe. But still, by their culture and by their background, you see, they are not free to accept this.
54:25
And let me share with you one of my friends' story, you see, in this, in the United Kingdom. I met with him, and in the first, he was not open to the
54:34
Gospel. He said that, please do not discuss on the religion. And then after a few weeks, he gave me a call, and he, he was very happy to talk and discuss about religion.
54:46
And then he accepted the Gospel. And then after a few weeks, he said to me that he will like rather to read the whole
54:54
Bible, and I gave him whole Bible. And then he decided to follow Lord Jesus Christ. And so, then came the problem of how he can face his family, how he, there will be problems from his family side.
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The problem, many people know that they are not on the right path, and they know that Jesus only can give us the assurance of salvation.
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But when they, they are looking back to their family, they know that when we say that we are
55:25
Christian, when we decide to follow Lord Jesus Christ, what, what will have to cost?
55:31
We will have to leave our families. And many of them, only God can give them courage and strength to rely totally on Him instead of their, on their families and their friends.
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So, this is a problem. They say that they know God, but their concept of God is quite different.
55:50
We believe in a, in a God who is the God of mercy, and they believe in a God who is the
55:56
God of wrath. So, every time they are afraid, they're scared. You see, when
56:01
I was a Muslim, I, I used, always used to say to our mullah in the mosque that, look, every time you preach, you preach that God is the
56:10
God of wrath. Does it mean that God created us just to punish us?
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What is the meaning of our creation, why He has created us? If He is a
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God of wrath, so He wants to punish us, it means that the creation created humanity just to punish them, and not to love them.
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But then God showed me that, no, I love you. I love you so much that I will send my only son to die for your sins, and to save you.
56:42
Alright, Peter, thank you very much for that. I'd like to invite our callers to get involved at 877 -753 -3341, and that's what
56:50
Scott up in Kirkland, Washington has done. Now, we want to make sure, again, we're dealing with the phone system here, and so, hopefully,
57:01
Scott will be able to hear Peter, and more importantly, Peter will be able to hear
57:06
Scott. If we have any issues with that, I will try to relay any questions that are not understood.
57:14
But let's go ahead and talk with Scott. Scott, are you there? Yes, I am. Okay, Scott, Peter, are you able to hear
57:21
Scott? Yeah. Oh, good, excellent. Go ahead, Scott. Okay, well, thanks for having me on, and it's great to hear your story,
57:29
Peter, and it's very edifying, and it was very moving for me to sit here this morning and to hear how God worked in your life.
57:34
And I just thank Him for you. Thank you very much. Yeah, my question for you, and I'm not sure, you know, what your take on this might be, but I'd like to hear.
57:45
I've heard it said before that in Islam, there's a very fatalistic predeterminism of God, and myself being a
57:55
Reformed Christian who has an idea of God's sovereignty and of God's choosing of His people,
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I wonder, how does that compare with, say, the Biblical Christian doctrine of God's sovereignty and God's predestination versus the
58:12
Islamic? Actually, as I think I explained to my other brother, that according to Islam, you see,
58:21
God is depicted as a God who is the God of wrath, and who is controlling our life, and just when you see many
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Muslim people, they just want to please God by their outward appearance, by beard, by their dress, and by these things.
58:37
But in the God of Bible is depicted as a God of mercy, who looks into the heart, rather than to outward appearance.
58:49
So, is it, for Muslim people, they think that God is always angry with them, and they're just, let's say that God is, they believe that God is a merciful
59:04
God. But I never understood when I was Muslim, that in what sense
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He is merciful according to Islamic doctrine. Because they never proved that, they say that your sin will never be forgiven.
59:20
For example, they say that, you see, if a human being is born, at birth he is innocent.
59:25
But in Christianity, in the Biblical doctrine, we believe that we are born sinners, and nothing can cleanse us from the sin, except the blood of Lord Jesus Christ.
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Rather, Muslim people, they want to please God by the blood of bulls, by the blood of goats, especially on their sacrificial festival.
59:45
I think one of the things to bring up in answer to Scott's question is that, one thing that I'm hearing in what you're saying,
59:54
Peter, is that you sensed a contradiction in your
01:00:00
Muslim beliefs, in the sense that you would hear, and the Quran describes
01:00:06
Allah as merciful, but the demonstration of that mercy that Biblical Christianity has in Jesus Christ is not there.
01:00:17
There's a capriciousness to the sovereignty of Allah, and you just don't have, like you said, you don't have any assurance, you don't have any way of knowing whether Allah's going to be merciful to you or not.
01:00:33
There's nothing laid out that'll explain it one way or the other, and the idea of a
01:00:40
God, of Allah having a purpose of redeeming a people in Christ, demonstrating his mercy and love in Christ, Allah is so transcendent in Islamic belief that that's one of the big things that offends the
01:00:55
Muslim people, the idea of shirk, the idea that there could be that, that Jesus could be so special, could be
01:01:03
God come in human flesh. I mean, that's extremely offensive. It's there in the Quran and continues today.
01:01:11
And so the sovereignty of Allah and then the sovereignty of God in Scripture, they play themselves out in very different ways, and you can see that,
01:01:20
I think, in your concern that you didn't know where you were going to go. You didn't have any way of knowing if you stood before Allah whether he would be merciful to you or not, whereas it's
01:01:32
God's purpose in Christianity to reveal himself as merciful in Christ, and when we can enter into his presence, we will know because we are in Christ that we are accepted in him.
01:01:44
That's where I see the major difference coming out there. Would that be pretty fair, Peter?
01:01:51
Yeah, yeah. That was pretty fair? Okay, good, excellent. All right. Well, thank you, Scott. Please pray for Peter as he labors there in England, and also
01:02:00
I'd just like to ask folks to pray for Peter's family. They are still in that general area,
01:02:07
Peter, their sort of Afghanistan, Pakistan area there. Yeah, yeah.
01:02:12
After November 2001, when the Taliban attacks on Afghanistan, they are now in Pakistan.
01:02:20
They moved into Pakistan, yeah. Well, we know that there were six U .S.
01:02:26
soldiers who died yesterday in a helicopter crash in that area.
01:02:31
They were trying to medevac two Pakistani children out to help them, and we know that that kind of thing is going on there, so we definitely need to pray for God's people there.
01:02:46
You yourself said, Peter, that there were Christian people there that you helped lead to the Lord. They're still there, so we need to pray for those people, and we will continue to do so.
01:02:56
Scott, thank you very much for your phone call. Let's go now to James in Denton, Texas.
01:03:03
Hello, James. Hello. If you could speak up real loud for us so that Peter can hear you. How are you doing?
01:03:09
I'm doing well. Can you hear, Peter, can you hear James? A little bit. Okay, James, go ahead with your question.
01:03:15
Okay. My question is, when you're talking to Muslims that their homes are on the streets, if they tell you, when you suggest
01:03:24
Christianity to them, if their answer is basically that Can you speak a little bit louder?
01:03:31
I can't hear you. Okay, could you speak up just a little bit more, and if that doesn't work, I'll repeat it for you, Peter. Go ahead,
01:03:38
James. If they say that they've been raised as Muslims and they see no reason to change, how would you handle that?
01:03:48
What would you say to them to maybe convince them that Christianity is true? Were you able to hear that,
01:03:54
Peter? No, I can't. Okay. If you encounter someone, say, in your street ministry, as you're going door -to -door, and they're
01:04:03
Muslim, and they say, look, I don't see any reason why I should consider
01:04:10
Christianity or consider this Jesus you're talking to me about, what would you say to them?
01:04:17
How would you approach them? What direction would you go with them? Actually, first of all, to the
01:04:22
Muslim, like this, you see, we must have a little bit knowledge of Qur 'an and Islam as well. Because, first of all, we can give them some
01:04:33
Qur 'anic references about Jesus Christ and who he was. The problem is the people who do not believe in the
01:04:40
Bible, how you are going to convince them. And if you have a little bit of knowledge about Qur 'an, and give them the example, if you give them the example of the real, the thing is that if we can present the position, the life of their prophet before them, and then if we tell them about the life of Jesus Christ from the
01:05:06
Bible, and then they will be able to, I think, they will be able to know that this is the difference between their prophet, and still they believe that Jesus is prophet, but, you see, and I ask them,
01:05:20
I ask Muslim as well, and other people as well, that the main solution is that just open your heart and pray to God.
01:05:28
Remove this jealousy from your heart and pray to God, and God will give you, show you the truth. Well, let me ask you,
01:05:35
Peter, when you were in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and in that area, and you would speak to people, and now that you're in the
01:05:45
United Kingdom, don't you have more freedom, as to what you can say now, than you had at that point, when you were in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
01:05:57
Yeah, there is a lot of freedom, but with the changing circumstances, changing situation in the world, just, for example, now their attitude is quite changed, and they're a little bit angry, because this week
01:06:08
I find them angry a little bit, their attitude has changed, and I'm astonished to see them here in this country, that especially the youngster generation, the younger one, you see, they are taught to be fanatic, as in the country like Afghanistan, and sometimes the youngsters, they are very, they are not responding, they are hostile, in a way.
01:06:31
Do they see the war in Iraq right now as a Christian versus Muslim conflict?
01:06:40
Not apparently, but let me give you an example, I went to meet some of my friends from Afghanistan in a shop on Saturday, in the morning time, and when they met me, before that, their attitude was quite good, they were friendly, but one of them, he was quite angry, and he asked me that you are doing this and these things, whatever they believe about this, so this is their, according to their own understanding, but I thought that it's wise to keep silent, because I do not want to discuss with him, but I said to him that look, we are preaching the love of Christ, I am not going to preach you about any political agenda, so they must,
01:07:19
I said to them that you must believe in a savior, and you must see that, let me give you an example of Afghanistan, that why
01:07:29
Afghanistan people, they are suffering because of one Muslim who is the enemy of humanity.
01:07:36
I will say to them that who gave them the right to kill the people without any reason, who gave them the right to kill innocent people in bomb blasts?
01:07:46
And this is what they never understand, but we need to explain to them that look, this is your Islamic side, and this is the humanity side, and choose whichever you want.
01:07:55
Well thank you James for your phone call, and we invite your more phone calls at 877 -753 -3341, even if we can't get the question clearly to Peter, I will repeat it for him so that we can get your questions, and indeed those in the chat channel, if you have questions
01:08:15
I will repeat them as well to Peter, I can see what you all are saying, and then
01:08:20
I'll be able to communicate those to him. When you were in, when you were still pursuing your ministry there in Pakistan, Afghanistan before your arrest, and before you came to the
01:08:35
United Kingdom, I have heard, and I'm not sure if you would have any information on this or not, but I have heard that ironically in Iraq there was more openness at least to allowing
01:08:52
Christians to be Christians than in some other places, like maybe
01:08:57
Yemen or someplace like that. Is it pretty much a almost region to region, not just country to country, but region to region type thing as to what kind of resistance a
01:09:09
Christian person is going to experience all across the Middle East and into Pakistan and so on and so forth?
01:09:18
Actually, when we are speaking about Iraq, I just know about Iraq that there is a lot of Christian, there is a big
01:09:25
Christian community in Iraq, and the people there are welcoming and let me tell you that many
01:09:30
Muslim people who have the sense that they need to know the truth, and they are very open now in many countries, even in Afghanistan, many people there are some radio ministries going on in, for Afghan people in their own languages, and they are responding very positively.
01:09:49
And it also depends upon the region, and as I told you that some things, many things which are going on in the world now, they are impacting their minds sometime against Christianity and again their concept of Christianity, but many people they think that what the
01:10:07
Christian people are doing in the world, like in the time of their trouble and human disasters, the
01:10:13
Christian people, they are helping them. They are reaching there with food and they are reaching there with every type of, they are meeting their needs there.
01:10:22
And many people know this, that only the people of God can help this and only the people of God have the heart and spirit of helping others and the spirit of caring to other people.
01:10:33
But still, many people that, as I told you that in our case, in our area, in the tribal belt, the people, many people who read the
01:10:44
Bible and they change their mind, they say that whatever we are told, because less than 10 % of people, they are able to, more than 90 % of people,
01:10:57
I mean that in other words, they are unreached people, they are not reached and they never have an opportunity to have a
01:11:04
Bible or to read it. And it depends upon the region. And another thing, in an area like, in our area like Pakistan, there are not everybody hostile to Christianity.
01:11:16
A handful of people, they are just hijacking the big population who are
01:11:21
Muslim fanatics, that if the people, they are not doing what they say, they are going to kill them.
01:11:27
Hmm. I have some questions that people have asked in our chat channel.
01:11:33
Julie asks, how well do people in Pakistan understand English? If someone wants to send
01:11:40
Bibles there, would they understand English or could some of them understand English? And how easily can an
01:11:45
American get Bibles into Pakistan? Oh yes, there are a lot of Bibles available in Pakistan, but the question is how you can get
01:11:52
Bibles to Afghanistan. Hmm. There are a lot of Bibles, you see, they are being printed in their own languages.
01:11:59
The big major language is Pakistani national language is Urdu. And the Bible, there are a lot of Bibles that are available in Urdu through Bible Society in Pakistan.
01:12:09
Hmm. And the many of the Pakistanis, especially young generation, I think more than 10 % of them, they can understand and they can read
01:12:17
English. Hmm. But the problem is that we are concerned about Afghanistan. Not too many
01:12:24
Bibles in their own languages, they are being printed now because of the situation there. And but still there is work going on in form of leaflets, tracts and radio ministry and the people are reaching them.
01:12:40
But it's good that if the people there, for example, the people like our group, we were reaching them in their own language.
01:12:46
And it was easier because most of them, they cannot study Bible in, even they can't study
01:12:53
Pashto, they can't read Pashto. Hmm. They can't read other Pakistani languages. The youngster, to an extent, they can read the languages, but to the elder, you need to just go with, to visit them and then you need to explain to them what you believe and why you believe.
01:13:10
So the New Testament that you read, that the Lord used in your life, was written in Urdu? It was in Pashto.
01:13:17
Pashto. Okay. All right. I have another question here. How much of the
01:13:22
Quran do Muslims in these countries really know? When, I've heard stories, especially of Muslims outside of Muslim countries, who will memorize large portions of the
01:13:36
Quran in Arabic, but they don't understand Arabic. And hence, they don't, you know, they may have memorized whole sections of Quran, but they don't really know what they're memorizing.
01:13:45
Is that a common thing? Yes, this is a common problem with them, but now, to an extent, you see, they are teaching them to read
01:13:54
Quran by translation. For example, my younger brother, you see, he memorized all the
01:14:00
Quran by heart. But if I asked him to translate even one verse, he don't know what the verse is.
01:14:05
Just, it's a blessing to read Quran in the old language. But many people,
01:14:11
I will say, more than 60 % of people, they just read Quran, they just learn to read it in Arabic language, and they don't know what the meanings are, and even what they're doing.
01:14:23
I asked a Muslim lady, she is from Pakistan, she was there, out in my street, and during I was in the streets,
01:14:30
I said to her that, you know that, who is Muhammad? And believe me, she do not know who is he.
01:14:37
And I asked her, what do you think, why you are a Muslim? What is Islam? And she said that,
01:14:42
I don't know very well, but because my parents were Muslims, and I was born in a Muslim home, and I am praying,
01:14:49
I am a good Muslim, five times a day, but don't ask me, I don't know why I am a Muslim. I am a Muslim.
01:14:55
Wow. Well, those folks are definitely open to being evangelized.
01:15:00
Someone else asked the question, how important are the Hadith versus the
01:15:06
Quran? In other words, I think what's being asked is, you mentioned in your education that you studied the
01:15:12
Quran and you studied the Hadith, but isn't it the Hadith that give you direction as to how you're to live your daily life as a
01:15:21
Muslim? Most Christians here in the West really do not understand the role of the
01:15:26
Hadith for the believing Muslim. I think that, simply, I can explain.
01:15:34
Let me put it this way, that there are two major sects in Islam.
01:15:41
One is Shiites and one is Sunni. According to Sunnis, Hadith is the second authentic book after Quran.
01:15:50
There are different Hadith books, Buhari, Muslim, and Sunan -e -Nimaja, Sunan -e -Nisai, these books. But the
01:15:57
Hadith, Muslim people believe that Quran is the word of God and Hadith is the word of Muhammad.
01:16:05
So this is the difference between Quran and Hadith. And Hadith is the thing, according to the belief of Sunni Muslims, that what
01:16:14
Muhammad did and what he said, and which is being regarded in the form of books by different scholars, one name was
01:16:21
Buhari, another was Muslim, another was Sunan -e -Nimaja, and these different people. So they compiled the saying of Muhammad into a book which is called
01:16:31
Hadith, but still, according to Shiite Muslims, they do not believe in Hadith. So the
01:16:37
Sunnis, when I quote from the Hadith on this program, in fact
01:16:44
I have them, all of them on my computer, when I quote from that, only a
01:16:50
Sunni Muslim is going to be impacted by that. From your perspective, because the
01:16:56
Shiite has a living Imam, that Imam takes the place of the
01:17:04
Hadith as far as the interpretation of the Quran is concerned, right? Yeah, actually they have the books like Sahifa -e -Sajjadiyya, they call, it's a different, difficult name for you, but they believe in some
01:17:17
Hadith, but they are not, you see, they agreed upon some saying of Muhammad. Sunni and Shiite, they agreed upon, this is called
01:17:26
Mutafiq -un -Ilah, and they believe on some, but they do not believe on these books as authentic as the
01:17:32
Sunni people believe of the Quran, because they say that, for example, let me tell you about Abu Huraira, who was the main source of these
01:17:40
Hadiths, and they say that, you see, he was a liar, he was telling lies, he did not know, is that true that whatever he regarded in the
01:17:48
Hadith is from their Prophet? So there's a lot of conflict, in fact we've heard stories, even since last week and the beginning of the war in Iraq, I've seen maps of Iraq where you'll have
01:18:03
Sunni Muslim over here, and you have Sunni Arab over here, and then you have
01:18:08
Shiite Muslim over here, it's very much a regional type thing, and you'd encounter different kinds of interpretations and different emphases amongst these people, even though they would all be
01:18:23
Muslim. That obviously creates challenges for folks, especially even
01:18:31
Christians in the military who are going to be over there for a long time, and want to share their faith, hopefully they know the difference between the various groups, and are able to communicate within those particular contexts.
01:18:45
877 -753 -3341, we have about 12 minutes left, actually a little bit less than that, about 10 minutes on the program, and I have another question here,
01:18:56
I'm not completely certain of exactly what the question here is, but the question is, isn't it greatly related,
01:19:05
I'm not sure what it is, isn't it greatly related to what laws have been passed regarding Christians and other religions other than Islam, for example in Saudi Arabia I believe it is illegal to possess a
01:19:16
Bible, or to meet in groups of three or more, I think what's being asked is, trying to share the
01:19:25
Gospel with people in those lands, some of the lands that are actually most easily recognized by Westerners, aren't they some of the most difficult lands in which to do that kind of ministry, because they have very restrictive laws concerning the distribution of Bibles and literature and things like that?
01:19:48
Yes, that's true, there's many countries, but you see, like Saudi Arabia, I do not know exactly what's going on there, but I was told that there people cannot preach the
01:19:58
Gospel openly, and in most of the Arab countries, and even in Pakistan, you see, they say that you must respect, because this is a
01:20:05
Muslim country, but still, there is a question that people are being asked, that if they are persecuted, and they go, they say that, oh, there is no persecution from the government side in Pakistan, but it's from the people, but still there are laws in the government that who give death sentence to two, one was 14 year old and one was quite illiterate, in 96, named
01:20:35
Rahmat and Salamat Masih, the whole world knows about them, it was through a Pakistani court, and so, still, you see, there are some restrictions, but in many countries, they are open to preach, but not in Afghanistan.
01:20:49
I think that the people were accused, even during Taliban reign, that some agency people,
01:20:55
NGOs people, they were accused and they were arrested, and when Afghanistan was attacked, they were released.
01:21:01
Are you aware if things have improved in Afghanistan? Oh yeah, as long as Afghanistan, the improvement of the situation is concerned, one of our friend, he explained to me, usually they are giving us the news, he is from Afghanistan and he still has got family in Kabul, they say, properly, the
01:21:23
Kabul city is in little bit control, but not all the Afghanistan, what's going on, because it's a big country, they can't control them, even in Kabul, you see, the whole
01:21:33
Kabul is not in control, still many things are going on. So, there is still, the country is still very much, well, and even before, it was very much divided along lines of tribes and groups like that, and that really hasn't changed a whole lot, but there might be some areas where American forces are in control, where there would be more freedom to speak of the gospel,
01:21:59
I would assume. There is a question someone has asked, coming through our
01:22:06
Pete Webb connection here, basically the person is asking, who is the author of the
01:22:14
Koran, according to you, there have been various theories out concerning the authorship, which one do you personally hold?
01:22:21
Do you get into discussions at all about the Koran, or do you try to immediately move the discussion into the
01:22:28
Bible? Can you please repeat the question again, the first part of the question.
01:22:34
The first part of the question is, do you believe Muhammad was the one who, is he really the main source for all of the
01:22:42
Koran, or would you believe that it actually sort of came from various other of the early
01:22:51
Muslim leaders, and some of it doesn't really come from Muhammad at all? Actually, during the time of Muhammad, their prophet, the
01:23:00
Koran was not written in the form of a book, they agreed, and it was compiled during the time of the
01:23:08
Caliph Uthman, who compiled the Koran, and still there are some controversies going on, even among Sunni people that, at that time, the
01:23:17
Caliph Abu Bakr, he accused Uthman that one particular verses are part of the
01:23:25
Koran, which they are reciting now in the evening prayer, they say, but, and he accused him of that he hasn't put it in the
01:23:32
Koran, and he is, you see, because he has compiled the Koran, and then there are some things added in the 17th century in the
01:23:40
Koran, like they say, in Arabic letters.
01:23:47
So this is mostly what they believe, that this came from Muhammad, and it was written on the piece of leather and leaves and these things, and then
01:23:56
Uthman compiled it. But still there are some debates going on among Muslim sects.
01:24:02
Right. Yeah, I'm very familiar with that, in fact, just wrote an article on that subject for the
01:24:07
CRI Journal here in the United States, the difference between the transmission of the text of the Bible and that of the
01:24:13
Koran, and the different attitudes that we have about studying the text of the Bible over against the
01:24:19
Koran is quite interesting as well. But the person who asked that question, thanks you for that answer.
01:24:27
Another person I think has a good question, and that is, in the Koran, Christians are called the people of the book.
01:24:35
And isn't that used of Jews as well? Yeah, actually, according to Koran, the people of the book are
01:24:42
Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Okay, so they're all brought together in one group. Yeah, because you see, still, if they study
01:24:49
Koran, the Koran, the law, which is given Islamic law, and mostly about this clean and unclean, and about the table fellowship and these things, this is taken from the law of Moses, from Deuteronomy.
01:25:02
So the question that is being asked, wouldn't this concept, which includes
01:25:09
Jews and Christians as well as Muslims, prohibit Muslims from killing Christians and Jews?
01:25:15
It must prohibit them, but they are told by different sources.
01:25:20
I never came across a verse like this in Koran, which they're often repeating now that the
01:25:26
Jews and Christians, they are the enemies of Muslims. Rather, it is said in Koran to Muhammad that, it is still in Koran that, oh
01:25:35
Muhammad, if you are in doubt about something, go and consult the people of the book who are Christians before you.
01:25:42
Yeah, I've noticed that myself. It's quite interesting. Now, as we're getting close on time, what are your plans?
01:25:52
You've been there in the UK for a year now, you have a great love for the Muslim people, you want to share with them.
01:25:59
God's obviously gifted you to be able to do so, given your background. Where do you want to go from here?
01:26:06
What does the future hold, and how can we pray for Peter and remember you, and pray that God's will be done?
01:26:14
Actually, pray for me that, again, that God will be done, because I have cared hard for Muslims.
01:26:21
When I came here, I preferred to go back, and if the situation is okay for me to go back and work among my own people.
01:26:27
But now, when I came here, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, I only can work among Muslims from Pakistan and Afghanistan, but here
01:26:38
I can work among Muslims from different backgrounds. And so, it's totally in God's hands.
01:26:44
Whatever He wants me to do, I will obey. If He said to me, go to Afghanistan, I will go. And if He said to me, stay here.
01:26:51
Because I have given my life to Him, I committed my life to Him, and it is entirely in His hand and in His will.
01:26:58
Your family is still back there in Pakistan. Yeah. Do you have any contact with them at all?
01:27:06
No, not at all. After 1995, I have got no contact. None at all. Yeah. So, you don't know what their state is, or maybe from other sources, or do you know that you're...
01:27:17
Yeah, some of my friends, you see, who, for example, this policeman or some other sources,
01:27:23
I'm able to know what's going on there. I'm still praying for them. So, they're still alive, they're well.
01:27:30
Would you... Do you think you would ever have an opportunity, if you did go back, would they speak with you?
01:27:36
Yeah, I have hope in God, that if God changed my life, and still,
01:27:42
I think the New Testament is there in my home, and God can use... Because God, His word is same yesterday, today, and forever, and He can change them.
01:27:52
And I still pray, because nothing is impossible with God. From human perspective, it's impossible, but with God, nothing is impossible.
01:28:00
So, I believe that He can change them. Yes. Yes, He can. Well, Peter, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
01:28:08
I know that everyone who's been listening, that have been watching, as they have been listening, have been blessed and challenged by your story.
01:28:17
We have been reminded of God's power, God's grace, God's mercy. That's even in faraway places, even without the use of anything other than His precious word.
01:28:32
So, you left... That New Testament is still in your family's home, from what you said? Yeah. Oh, man.
01:28:39
Well, that's tremendous. I hope the Lord does use it. Thank you so much, Peter, for being with us.
01:28:44
Thank you very much for inviting me to your program. Thank you very, very much for sharing with us. We will be praying for you. Thank you very much for listening to The Voting Line today.
01:28:51
We'll be back again a week from today. Thanks for listening. God bless. God bless.
01:30:08
God bless.
01:30:20
God bless.