Church News: Summit Church Responds to Faith Baptist & The PCA on Race

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. It's a weekend edition. We are live now and I hope it stays that way. If you're watching, please pray. This is probably the last podcast I'm going to do on this particular computer.

In the last week and a half, two weeks, I've had very unexpected things happen. My computer just kind of fizzled out and it keeps freezing up on me. So I'm hoping, I'm taking a risk here that it's going to work through the podcast.

But then my wife's car had all these issues and I'm trying to think what else. We had, oh man, a bunch of electric stuff went wrong at my house and I had to have an electrician come out and do some work.

It's just been one of those seasons where everything just seems to fail and it's all expensive stuff. But the Lord has gotten us through and I want to say, testimony of the Lord's grace. I have always seen in my own life, God provide even when I don't know how it's going to work.

The last six years, especially, I've been, for the most part, I would say living on faith because I'm relying on mostly you in the audience. If you are someone who supports this podcast, it's not like the line of work I was in before doing repair work and also drawing a paycheck from a university that's more stable.

And the Lord's taught me a lot through this and so I'm very thankful for that. But the last two weeks was one of those like, oh, it's going to be tight. What's going to happen? I hope something else doesn't break.

And I got a check in the mail this morning I was not expecting. And anyway, it's just a reminder to me that God is good. He provides for his children. And it seems like that faith is bolstered the more you experience those things.

But even with that, you can be like Peter on the waves, right? You remember the last two, three, maybe 10 times the Lord provided and then it's like, but will he do it again? And then he does. And I really have no business critiquing the children of Israel in the wilderness because that same spirit, I think, is in me to some extent.

And I hear other people saying the same thing. I think everyone has this to an extent, a growing, a sanctifying kind of, hopefully, walk with the Lord that makes you grow in faith over time. But it's never perfect, right?

Until we actually see Christ face to face. So anyway, I wasn't planning on starting the show like that, but I figured I'd let you know in case I freeze. And then if I freeze, we might just not do a podcast today.

So I do have two things I want to talk about. I thought about adding more to it, but I want to try to keep the podcast a little shorter. So I'm really just going to address two big things. For those who don't know, if you're a new listener on this particular podcast, I do highlight at times.

In fact, I'd say it's majority of probably what I do, church related and evangelical Christian related content. So if there's something going on institutionally and evangelicalism, especially regarding compromise, especially regarding social justice type issues, I'll cover it.

And that doesn't mean I won't cover other things. The last episode, of course, was on the war in Iran, and I enjoyed doing some research for that and covering it and hopefully giving you a take that maybe you weren't hearing other places.

But I want to focus on the church of the Lord Jesus Christ because I think that it is so important if we're going to have any kind of, I don't care what you want to call it, comeback, revival, renewal, making America great again, whatever you want to say, it's going to be contingent on whether or not people in this country and other countries, if you want this for your country, actually follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

And I understand people can do wise things and good things apart from faith in Christ because there are these natural instincts that God gives to people that don't complete or fulfill heavenly good, but they are things that are good in an earthly sense, like feeding your children and that kind of thing.

But if we're going to have an actual spiritual revival that cuts really deep down, that's lasting, that gets us, quote unquote, back on track and all of that, you're going to have to have a spiritual renewal.

There's really no other way around it. And that's why I focus on these things in part. It's also because I care about the purity of the church, and we've been doing this about six years now and things have changed.

The landscape has changed quite a bit. I'll talk about some of that, but some things don't change. And as we saw in the PCA this week, the Presbyterian Church in America, there is a zeitgeist, a motivation to drive out, quote unquote, racism.

And I'm going to try to put my best construction on this, but I do think there was a careless overture that got passed. And I realize even some people listening may think that this is needed to correct what you see happening, let's say, on X.

And there's this growing kind of ethno-determinism or ethno-reductionism or genetic determinism or whatever you want to call that. And you want something to kind of stave that off or whatever. Well, I don't think this was it, if that's what you're thinking.

And I'll get into that a little bit as we go forth. And also, we're going to talk about J .D. Greer and Summit Church, where he pastors, obviously, a big church in the Southern Baptist Convention. And Greer served as the president of the largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist, for a few years recently.

And so the documentary that I helped make about him, and it's really not about him. I should probably preface that. It involves him to an extent, right? He's kind of, he's a character that is a major character in it, but it's not really about him directly.

It is about the story of, and it's an encouraging one, of overcoming and how the Holy Spirit really helped the people at Faith Baptist Church regain their church. It's the first, I think, situation I've seen where it really did go the right way.

And just time after time, it seems like on a razor's edge. I was just talking to actually James Lawrence, the lawyer who represented Faith Baptist Church clients, and he just said time after time, it's like they should have lost, and they didn't, and they were victorious.

And so I would encourage you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, go check out the documentary. It's in three parts, and it's called Defending Faith Baptist. It's put out through the Church Reform Initiative, and I was privileged to take a part in this.

And I don't regret it. I love the fact that this made its way out there, and I think it's helping people. And really, it's supposed to inspire you and also warn you, because the template that was used at McLean Bible Church and First Baptist Naples, two other documentaries that I've done, is the same template that was used here.

I mean, you could say there's differences here and there, but in the main, it's the same thing. And I think people need to be aware of that because so many times you think, what can I do? Well, this is something you can do.

This isn't on the ground. If your church is going to be taken over by one of these groups that wants to modernize your church, and they start consolidating power and getting rid of the legacy ministries and trying to take out things that would be, quote unquote, against diversity or offensive, and then they start modernizing in ways that are against the character of your church, like getting rid of the choir, and we're going to do preaching on the screen now instead of an actual preacher who's present, then you'll know when you see those signs, or they bring in a consulting group, right?

You know when you see those things that it's not good. You got to put a foot down. You got to stop it before the cancer spreads. And that's really also why we put it out there. So go check that out. I really encourage you.

It's one of the, I think, most important things I've been involved with during the last six years of this podcast, and it is probably one of the most inspiring things. So check it out. The last part of that documentary, Defending Faith Baptist, just dropped, I think it was last Monday, so a few days ago.

Summit Church’s Response to the Faith Baptist Documentary

All right, well, let's get into it. So I'll just go right ahead into the situation at Faith Baptist Church because that's the situation that yesterday I was notified that the directional elders, whoever they are at the church, decided to draft a letter, and I don't know if we'll read the whole thing, but I'll try to start reading it and give you some thoughts on it.

First of all, I think the thing that jumped out at me immediately about this letter is they say at one point in this letter that they have nothing to hide. In fact, I could probably keyword search it and it'll come right up.

Let's see here. Yeah, there it is. Nothing to hide, even though we had nothing to hide. It's right there. And at the same time, they talk about not wanting to, let's see, we voluntarily produced documents with the agreement that these documents would not be disclosed on the internet, and you can't really make these things jive together.

Either you had nothing to hide or you didn't want documents to be shared on the internet. Which one is it, right? And the whole statement, in my opinion, is just a train wreck. We don't know exactly who drafted it.

I have my suspicions, especially given the discovery, the communications director there, Amy Whitfield, you know, maybe she was the one who did this. It seems like it's similar to some of the things that I saw in the discovery.

But anyway, this is the statement that the elders are putting their name on. It starts off, as some of you have seen, our pastor and our church are the subject of a recent documentary series about our attempted church merger with Faith Baptist Church.

Now, I'm going to point out something, church merger. Later on in this, they talk about that this was understood to be a church dissolution. Faith Baptist Church was dissolved, and then Summit would take its assets.

And the debt was, what, $1 .2 million, something like that. The assets were worth probably $25 to $30 million. Obviously, this would be an advantageous thing for Summit Church to gain. Summit Church is about 35 times bigger than Faith Baptist.

I mean, it is a David and Goliath story. But they frame it as a merger. And that was part of the story, is they kept framing it as a merger. And the people at the church didn't realize what they were actually voting for, they were voting to dissolve their church, Faith Baptist.

And so Summit contradicts this letter, contradicts itself in that respect, too, that it's a church merger. And then later on, they at least admit finally that, no, actually, this was a dissolution. So we received no advance notification about the documentary, nor were we consulted about the issues discussed within it.

We saw it for the first time when the episodes were shared in public. Now, the reason that you put this in there is to try to say, look, there's two sides to the story, OK? And our side wasn't consulted.

And of course, I've already had people from Faith, sorry, Summit Church reach out to me and say, how dare you? How dare you do this? Don't you believe that the first to share his case seems right until someone cross-examines.

Them?

And to that, I would say a few things. Number one, I would say this, both sides that you were looking for, you want both sides represented, right? We want fair fight, we want both sides represented. That actually already happened.

That is, so this happened in court. We have the documentation, we have the discovery. We have, that's what the documentary is based on, right? We have all these things that from Summit Church and the Faith Baptist leadership that were working in conjunction with Summit Church.

So the judges decided against Summit Church. Summit Church lost in both federal court and state court on this issue. And so two sides were already heard and there was already verdicts reached. So I think that's important.

You know, if you, if you heard both sides of something, let's say, and then you say, okay, I'm going to reach a conclusion. And then someone says, well, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, well, before you reach a conclusion, have you heard both sides?

It's like, that's, yes, exactly. Right. That's the point. We already heard both sides. So this is something that's already, in my opinion, has already happened. What people are demanding happen has already happened.

It's something though, that some of you might want to look into more in the church reform initiative is going to, I don't know exactly what day, but shortly they're going to have available the depositions in their full form and the discovery that you can look through.

And then you can decide for yourself if there's screenshots, obviously in the documentary, but you can actually look through it yourself, see the primary sources here. So there you go. I mean, that's, that's the first response.

The second response is I, I, I thought of this immediately. All right. When people are asking about this and saying, well, how dare you J .D. Greer himself has, this is from 2019, but J .D. Greer himself has actually given the best argument.

We're not, it's not a good argument actually, but he has given an argument. And in this case, it seems like a good argument just because it shows the hypocrisy, but J .D. Greer himself has given a pretty good argument for why you don't actually need to hear both sides in cases where it's abuse, there's power dynamics, and there's a more powerful side.

That's, you know, abusing or misusing, whatever a less powerful side. So this is from an article. The article is in Christian Post, seven tragic myths about sexual abuse. And I believe it's myth five.

So let's go to myth five. He says that, let's see if I can find myth five here. I see myth four, myth four must go on for a while. Let's see myth. No, okay. Myth five. No, it's not myth five, man. I should have had this queued up better.

Okay.

Maybe it's myth four.

Okay.

Greer says, J .D. Greer, the pastor of Summit Church says, and he says, this is a myth. The myth is that a posture of grace requires giving the benefit of the doubt to those accused and offering the convicted a second chance.

Let me read that again. A posture of grace requires giving the benefit of the doubt to those accused and offering the convicted a second chance. Now this is Weasley. This is sneaky, slithery. So in other words, you don't have to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who's being accused, right?

Isn't that what everyone's asking us to do from Summit Church? You got to give it a benefit of doubt to Summit Church. They're being accused.

Well, J .D.

Greer says you don't have to do that. He says, friends, what about the benefit of the doubt for the one bringing the accusation? Do we not owe that to them? He asked. I'm not saying we throw out due process.

Now due process already happened with this case. Just that we err on the side of compassion for the abuse. So I just want to say Church Reform Initiative, myself included, I'll include myself in this.

We are just trying to err on the side of compassion for the abused. Now, as if that weren't enough justification, we actually already have a due process that has taken place. So don't give me that, okay?

Don't give me that, oh, you didn't hear both sides. And let me give you a third thing here. A third thing, and I think this is worth mentioning. The standard being applied to a documentary like this is, I think, it's not the same as the standard that you would apply to, let's say, a news story, a journalistic piece, something like that.

And in journalism, you're expected to try to, all interested parties, you got to interview.

Them.

You got to get a quote, something if you can, right? That's the expectation, at least. In a documentary or an art or in, well, put it this way. Let's say you had a member of Faith Baptist Church. This court case is over.

They go to YouTube or Facebook or Instagram, and they start streaming their own opinions. And they say, rejoice, rejoice. We beat Summit Church. The leadership that was working in conjunction with Summit Church at Faith Baptist was being advised by Summit Church.

We beat them in court. Praise the Lord. This was the right outcome. Would that be wrong? Would that be like, oh, no, you didn't consult the other side? Well, obviously, you would say no. This is the same thing.

There's just more embellishment. More work has been put into it. It's more professionally done. But this is the same thing. It's just letting the people in that particular case share their story and putting it online.

And it's not for profit. It's literally just to get their story out there. And we would not, I think, apply this kind of a standard to something that's a documentary or a movie or something. We wouldn't apply the standard to those things.

But through journalism, OK, we would. But this isn't journalism. So there's three responses that should hopefully satisfy that, in my opinion, this ridiculous.

Accusation.

And I think what you could do, this is really where the argument should be. The argument should be, you got it wrong. The documentary was off. It was wrong. Here are the reasons. And if it's off and it's wrong, then just give the reasons it's off and wrong, right?

Don't go into this like, oh, you didn't consult us and this and that. Like, just tell us if it was wrong, let's do it. You know, J .D. Greer would not sit for a deposition with attorney James Lawrence.

That was it was right before J .D. Greer was going to sit for a deposition that Summit pulled the whole thing. I say Summit, but OK, so Faith Baptist leadership, there's a bankruptcy proceedings are being advised by Summit.

J .D. Greer is about to be deposed. Obviously, there's some kind of a working relationship there. And the whole thing gets pulled. So what's that about, right? He's not he wasn't willing to be deposed.

I put out an offer there yesterday. I said, J .D. Greer, you can come on my podcast and I'll have James Lawrence on. You can have that conversation you didn't get to have. Let's hear your side of the story.

And then you can have James Lawrence cross examine you or you could you could cross examine.

Him.

I don't care, but he's not going to do that. And we know he's not going to do that. And I'll I'll I'll even say this. I am willing I'll use my own finances. I am willing to do a a fourth installment to this this three part.

We'll make it a four part. And we'll have what we'll interview whoever summit wants interviewed. OK, and we will put that together and make that part four and use that. They're not going to do it. And, you know, they're not going to do it right.

They don't even this is just a smoke. This is really what this is, is it's attempting to give people something to hold on to because they're in trouble at summit. They're really in trouble. And they got to give some reason that they're justified in all this.

And so to say, well, we are in the right, but we weren't consulted. It at least lets the people know who already had their minds made up. It gives them some kind of a moral justification. That's what I think is going on there.

But you make up your own mind about that. So, man, I've gotten like two sentences in. I should probably get more as your direction. I'll address our responsibilities to provide leadership and accountability for our church.

We have made ourselves available to answer questions. They say the story misrepresents the events as well as their intentions. But so it's easy to say that. But where does it do that?

Right.

In 2023, we launched a mobile campus at Nightdale High School. And then they say that that faith Baptist church approach to us and asked if we would be open to discussing the potential of them joining our nighttel campus due to a decline in attendance and financial stability at their request.

Over the next several months, our church leadership worked with FBC's leadership as we explored the viability of this proposal. I believe it was September or October of 2023 when the financials were open to Summit Church, the financial person at Summit Church.

So it wasn't several months. I mean, this was a good, this was over a year, this whole process from the initial contact point that we know of, at least to the final in December of 2024, the end of this thing.

So I see downplaying going on here. This was, there's more than enough to establish. There was a lot of working together. If you watch the documentaries, that is proven over and over and over. The advisement given from Summit Church is, it's all, it's like they're directing things almost, right?

Kivit Hicks has even said, look, look, check this out. This is something, this is just from the last episode. This is one little thing amidst tons of information. Kivit Hicks, who's the, they just referenced it in the letter, the Nightdale campus pastor for Summit Church.

He says, Todd and I, Todd and I, so I think that's one of the financial guys, or maybe it's a little, I'm trying to remember now. I think it's one of the guys at Summit. Anyway, we were talking a few minutes ago.

He mentioned that one thing that would be helpful for him is to have any money, idea of the money that might be needed by faith for Summit in the next few weeks. He's going to be gone this next Thursday, just over a week.

Okay, so he goes, it's highly likely a judge will look at the mission's money that it's in the account, and let's see, and I think that's a typo, and it needed to have been used to make a strong case for bankruptcy.

So it may not be a bad idea to dip into that, knowing Summit could always put back in there if it's needed. Then John Wallace from Faith Baptist Nightdale says, thanks, and let us think about that and discuss Monday night.

I can send Todd information. You have Summit Church advising them on stuff like this. Hey, if we're going to be heading into things like bankruptcy court and stuff, it would be really good if you just spent that mission's money, the money designated for missions.

Why don't you just spend that, get rid of it, because a judge might see that, and he might be like, I don't know about this bankruptcy thing. It's that kind of stuff that's going on, right? And don't forget, you already had a member or someone connected to the Spanish church who offered $400 ,000 to pay the $1 .2 million.

Congregation never was apprised of that.

Interesting.

You already have the fact that the person who held the loan offered to renegotiate the loan or forgive the loan. There was no interest in the leadership at Faith Baptist Nightdale that was working in conjunction with Summit on that at all, because one of the stipulations was they would have to resign, and they didn't want to resign.

You had the fact that they have a property that's worth $25 to $30 million. Why don't they just sell off a few acres? It's only $1 .2 million that they owe, right? Obviously, they wanted to make the church look as bad as possible.

That's why the numbers that they shared in their membership meeting were all wrong. This is admitted. This is admitted in deposition that they could, I think it was John Wallace said, I can't even remember where those numbers came from.

We shared with the congregation saying that we were in financial straits end of 2023. Can't even remember. This is the kind of stuff that it's inexcusable, and there's no way to massage it. You just have to have vagaries.

You have to have these spiritual kind of like, well, we're just following the Holy Spirit. We were just trying to help. You have to frame your motives as so pure because the facts don't bear this story out.

At all.

All right. So he says each party form feasibility teams that were tasked with discerning the practical and spiritual wisdom of decision.

Yeah.

Feasibility teams, right? You even have summit paying apparently for the person that it was overseeing the vote that Faith Baptist was taking on church dissolution. The person, there was someone overseeing that from summit church, right?

These were separate teams. They were, no, you guys were all working together. That's what the discovery shows. Throughout the process, we took steps to confirm compatibility, answer any questions to build connections between the two congregations, right?

Yeah.

J .D. Greer shows up. He makes a video, and then he shows up for a meeting at the church. He's only there an hour, and he zooms off, and it's all about this great merger that's going to happen, right?

And he's being advised by the leadership at Faith Baptist Nightdale of what he's supposed to address. Things like, well, if we merge, then we're going to be watching sermons on a screen. Try to ease their sensibilities about this and that kind of thing.

As we mentioned, this would mean Faith Baptist Church dissolving their church by congregational vote, and it's members joining the summit church, right? That was really clear. No, it wasn't. You listen to J .D. Greer's recordings, and that's not how he frames it at all.

The whole thing is about how you're not losing your church. Yeah, there's going to be some changes, but we're continuing. It's a merger. It was always presented that way. FBC leadership called for a congregational vote, and on March 3rd voted 97 to 55 in favor of dissolving their church and giving their property to summit church more than the meeting that required 51 threshold required by FBC constitution.

Yeah, by eight votes, guys. So the constitution of Faith Baptist says that of the available voting membership, you have to have a majority. So they were able to clear that by supposedly eight votes, but that's the thing that was challenged in court, and the members of Faith Baptist Nightdale won because you had added to this the fact that they stripped, without notice, by the way, they strip people of their voting privileges who were members, people who were going to vote against summit church and this quote unquote merger.

They were doing these calls to people mostly connected to leadership and so forth at the church to see how they would vote and then mark it down. I forget what they call that, calling votes, calling votes, which they had never done before.

Both of these things they had never done. They had never done the whole like you can't vote because you're an inactive member thing. So they were doing that. They had people that were just new to the church that had showed up from summit now and it was the whole thing and the judge said, no, this was illegitimate.

And here you have summit church saying, no, it was legitimate. It was totally legitimate. Well, that's not what the court actually determined. And so this is already been adjudicated, right? But they're doubling down.

However, some individuals in the church filed legal actions. Some individuals. Yeah, some individuals. I was there on the opening Sunday. That place was packed, guys. This was the lion's share of the church.

These were the members that had been there for a long time. This was just some members in the church file, legal action, state court to try to stop FBC from proceeding with the votes, right? Because it was an illegal vote.

And you guys brought Caesar into the church by having police officers there to prevent people from voting who actually had the right to vote. It is important to note that this lawsuit was brought against Faith Baptist by some of its members and other interested parties, not against the summit church because the summit church was not okay.

No one's disputing that. Summit church was just advising and working in tandem with the leadership at Faith Baptist. A state court judge issued a preliminary injunction which temporarily halted the dissolution proceedings until the lawsuit resolved.

FBC was running out of money and requested assistance from summit to help them meet their financial obligations. And on May 2nd, 2024, we approved a grant of $170 ,000 to help FBC pay accrued and anticipated operating cost salaries and severances.

This included ensuring that the preschool would remain open through the scheduled end of the school year in May 2024. Yeah, so yeah, this is actually pretty funny. So the merger with summit would determine that there wasn't going to be a preschool anymore.

So they're going to give $170 ,000 to ensure that preschool continues. Meanwhile, the whole plan is they're entering bankruptcy court. And on the same day they file for bankruptcy is the same day they're infused with $170 ,000 from the summit church.

And that money is for advancing the gospel in Nightdale, North Carolina, a mission that ended two weeks later because the church was closing. You can't make this up. And there were no guidelines on where the money was supposed to go.

It's just the timeline makes no sense. The timeline is it was literally the day of and all of a sudden they get all this money. And what's the more logical thing that this was used in part to help them go into bankruptcy court or that this was about a preschool that was ending in two weeks.

This is the kind of thing that I don't know who put this together, but they must not have been, they must be ignorant or they must just, I don't know. They're obviously repeating things that are so easy to refute.

The timeline doesn't lie here. And this is something that if summit church really cared, they would have advised FBC to let's try to avoid actually going into bankruptcy. If we really care about advancing the gospel in North Carolina, if we really care about that preschool, if we really care about these salaries and stuff, there were tons of options on the table, but guess what?

They didn't want those options. The parties interested didn't want those options. They wanted to put this into bankruptcy so that a larger conglomerate, this larger, the Walmart of churches could come in and take out the mom and pop church.

It's part of the bankruptcy proceedings. The group had filed the state lawsuit requested from the summit church documents between our church and FBC leadership. We voluntarily produced those documents with the agreement.

These documents would not be disclosed on the internet because we had concerns about statements being lifted out of context and misrepresented in public. We had seen charges and character assaults made against our leadership on the internet related to this case.

I had nothing to do with the facts. It's easy to say this, but what are you talking about? At the first, they agreed, but later in the bankruptcy proceedings, that group saw additional internal documents from summit leaders to depose some of our leaders.

As we process these requests, we grew concerned with that. These actions were no longer solely about disputing the legitimacy of the vote, but potentially part of a larger smear campaign involving our church and our pastor.

Good grief. The legitimacy of the vote, guys, you're even conflating lawsuits here. This was about the bankruptcy proceedings that you're talking about when we're talking about the depositions and so forth.

When they started getting concerned, when Summit Church just started getting concerned because, whoa, depositions are coming, that was in the bankruptcy court. That wasn't about the issue in state court, which was already won, which was the issue of the voting.

During this process, it has become clear to our directional elders, staff leadership, and FBC leaders that these legal procedures could continue for years, even though we had nothing to hide. And it was clear that dissolving and uniting with the Summit Church was the desire of the majority FBC members.

Yeah, it's not clear. You guys lost in court.

Stop.

FBC leadership that was working with you guys lost in court. So, no, we were also mindful of the Apostle Paul's admonition that sometimes it's better to suffer wrong than to put it in a spectacle before the world.

Oh, my goodness. They're so pious. We had not entered Nightdale looking for property. Of course you didn't.

Right.

That's what, yeah, that's what Kevin Hicks is touring the property and stuff before this attempted, quote unquote, merger.

Right.

We don't want the property. We like the campus we had. No, you wanted the property. The Baptist Church approached us with the idea of joining with us. There it is, joining with us. It wasn't joining with you.

It was dissolving their church. They're playing fast and loose with that one again. We had been eager to consider it, but now that the property was an obstacle to the mission of reaching people, we believed it was the will of the Holy Spirit to pursue a permanent campus elsewhere.

So we walked away. I don't know if I want to keep reading this. It's just a few more paragraphs. Anyway, it's more like at the end here, giving the spiritual kind of veneer to the whole thing and baptizing it.

We did the right thing. We're spiritual. Those people accusing us are big meanies. It's the law of you thou shalt be nice. And guys like myself and guys like the church reform initiative and guys like those people who legitimately actually were victims at Faith Baptist Nightdale, they apparently don't matter.

They are just the bullies. We're the big victims in this when, meanwhile, their church is 35 times larger. It has a budget. If they want to put their story out there, they're more than free to do it, and they have the resources to do it.

You know who doesn't? Faith Baptist. And you know who was very generous? A few—well, I don't even know who, to be honest with you. I don't even know the names, but a few people who are connected to the church reform initiative who are probably just ex-McLean Bible Church members who thought, you know what, we don't want what happens to our church to happen to anyone else.

That's it. That's it. That's who you have. It's David and Goliath, guys. It really is. Faith Baptist won this by going into debt. I mean, they just kept fighting, fighting, fighting. And I think Summit Church—I mean, J .D. Greer was in fight mode when people were ready to give up.

He kept this thing going, and the rest is history. Don't pretend like you're the victims. Come on. You have more than enough resources to get your story out there if you want to get it out there, but the fact is they can't.

They can't defend themselves because it's inexcusable. They know that they've done wrong, I believe. They can't—anyone who's in the know about this has to know. Watch the three parts, guys. So that's my little spiel on Faith Baptist and the Summit Church, and I'll take some questions, and we'll go on to the PCA stuff.