August 14, 2019 Show with David Horowitz on “Dark Agenda: The War to Destroy Christian America” AND Gary DeMar on “How Christians Should Engage in Battle in the War to Destroy the Christian Influence Upon America”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 14th day of August 2019.

I'm sorry, today's Wednesday. On this Wednesday, August 14th, 2019.

And I am thrilled to have both a first -time guest today and one of my favorite returning guests.

The first guest that we have on today for the first half hour of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not only a first guest for me on this program, but it's a first timer.

I have interviewed Christian Jews and Orthodox Jews, but I've never interviewed an agnostic

Jewish individual before that I can remember in all the years I've done Iron Sharpens Iron Radio going back to 2005.

But there is a unique situation here. Although my guest, David Horowitz, is an agnostic

Jew, he cherishes the Christian roots of America, and he has written a book to talk about the war to destroy

Christian America. It's called Dark Agenda, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, David Horowitz.

Thank you for the introduction. Well, go ahead, I'm sorry. Somebody else who said it would be interesting to have an agnostic

Jew and former radical write a book about the war against Christian America.

Yes, a radical liberal. Well, I was never a liberal. If you asked me what

I was when I was on the left, I would have told you I was a Marxist revolutionary. Wow.

People will tell you they're progressives are lying, and they're deceiving you.

My parents were card -carrying members of the Communist Party, and I never heard them or their friends ever use the word communist to describe themselves.

They were always progressives. And actually, there was a progressive party that was created for the election of 1948 by left -wing

Democrats who supported Russia. So we have a lot of distorted history, unfortunately.

Yes. So I tried to, you know, coming in as an outsider was very useful.

I mean, I learned a lot, but I think people, first of all, I think my witness has more credibility than a witness, say, of an actual

Christian. Because if you're a Christian, you have a stake already. You have a religious faith, and you want to defend it.

I would say I have no dog in that fight. But I did recognize when

I came out of the left and looked at America, well, first of all, I realized that you can't have an inalienable right to life or liberty or the pursuit of happiness, one that no one could take away unless there's a

God to give it to you. Because if government gives it to you or somebody like Maxine Waters or Bernie Sanders, Grant, you were right.

You know, when you look at them crosswise, they'll take it away. So that was a bit, you know, for an agnostic, that was a challenge.

It's not that I'm not an atheist. I don't know that there's no

God. And, of course, no atheist can know. It's a faith. But I realized you have to have a respect for God, for the idea of God, and a respect for people who believe in God in order to defend your freedoms.

You can't argue it another way. How can you argue that you have this inalienable right to life or liberty if there is no

God? You really can't. So I began with that, and then when you look at it, every freedom that we cherish, every value that we hold really dearly, equality, tolerance, inclusion, even diversity, they're all

Christian ideas. That's how they originated. Now, how did the change in you begin from being a socialist

Marxist radical to coming to the point where you now oppose those ideas?

Well, I think they're evil. How did you come to that realization? Well, the Black Panther Party murdered my friend, and the whole left blamed it on white people.

Wow. And then shortly after that, I wrote about this in a book called

Radical Son. Then a few, you know, actually about two months after her body was discovered in San Francisco Bay, the communists,

America had a retreat from the Vietnam War because of the domestic support for the communists.

I mean, they like to call it an anti -war movement, but it wasn't. It was a pro -communist, anti -American movement.

America left, and the communists proceeded to slaughter 2 .5 million innocent

Indochinese peasants. In Cambodia, they killed everybody who wore glasses because they thought they would carry the bad ideas of the past, and these people, of course, were creating a new world.

There wasn't one protest against the slaughter of innocents by the communists.

That's how I realized I had been involved in a very evil movement. Progressivism, communism, social justice, it's all the same.

Well, they think they can create a perfect world, and if you get in their way, you're expendable.

How long ago did this radical change take place after the murder of her? The 1970s.

This woman disappeared in December 1974, and her body was fished out of San Francisco Bay in February 1975, and America left

Vietnam in April of 1975. So it happened all at once.

It took a lot to shake me from my radical delusions, but you could see how the arts would shake an

Alexandria Cortez or an Ilhan Omar. These people have the same evil ideas, and they hate

America, and they support terrorists. Now, it is a big leap to come to disagree with Marxist -Leninist communism, and also socialism and all things left, and to actually come to the place where you revere

Christianity, even though you're not a Christian yourself. When did those ideas begin? Revere is too strong a term.

Here, look, let me summarize it in a couple of sentences. Before the

Protestant Reformation, you couldn't get to heaven except by going through the Catholic Church and its priesthood.

But the Protestant Reformers realized that churches are just human institutions, and they're subject to the corruptions that all individuals are subject to, that we all have to fight.

We have to fight to be honest, for example. I mean, to take the simple, but in some ways most important, human corruption, which is lying, and everybody does it, but lies are also the root of evil.

That doesn't mean that every lie is. There are fibs, or there are white lies and black lies, as we know.

But you have to be on guard. If your back is against the wall, you're likely to commit crimes to get yourself out of the predicament, and certainly to lie to save your skin.

The Protestants came up with this idea, you know, when they rejected the priesthood as the authority of their relationship to God, and they came up with this idea of the priesthood of all believers, which is the radical idea that created

America. Ninety -eight percent of the founders of America, people who settled this continent and created

America, were Protestant Christians. And, of course, there were many

Protestant Christian sects, and they were all fleeing persecution by established religions, that is, from the government.

For example, in England, the famous one, Henry VIII, when he stopped wanting to behead his wife, he changed the religion overnight.

And it became an Anglican religion, and they persecuted the pilgrims and others who came and founded this country.

So when you think of that idea of the priesthood of all believers, that's radical equality.

That means everybody, whatever their color or origin, is part of the priesthood.

Right, and of course, Protestants believe that that is a biblical concept from the

New Testament, that they didn't invent it. Well, until they came along with the idea of the

New Testament, it was buried. Right, yes, it was obscured by the Roman Catholic Church, for sure.

But the point is, when they created America, immediately that included black slaves.

And the Declaration of Independence is very clear.

All men are created equal. That includes black slaves. Within 20 years, first of all, the northern states had freed their slaves.

The slave trade had been abolished. It was an incredible revolution.

We have all these leftists today talking about America's original sin. Cory Booker was an idiot.

Being slavery, no, it wasn't. The English instituted the slave system in America.

Americans were radical. America was a very radical idea that all men are created equal.

It took a generation and 350 ,000 Union lines to finally free all the slaves.

But if you look at it that way, since slavery was a normal institution for 3 ,000 years, nobody ever condemned it morally, until Wilberforce and Jefferson came along.

America is the greatest gift that was given to black people in 3 ,000 years.

Americans should be proud of their heritage. And I refer to the sin of slavery.

And there's a, you know, of course, a lesson in law. Why didn't they do it overnight? You know, just do it in 1787 in the

Constitution, just outlawed slavery. It would have been attacked by the slave south, which almost beat the north, whatever it was, 80 years later.

And the south would have aligned with the British Empire, the most powerful empire in the world that burned the

White House in 1812. So it couldn't be done overnight. You know, one thing that I really can't stand is the way people today, particularly on the left, they're so self -righteous.

They know what was right in 1776. And anybody who didn't agree with them, you know, 200 years later, or back in 1776, deserves to be condemned.

It's so easy to fight dead people. They can't answer back.

That's where we are in this country today. Now, how long ago did this dark agenda, in your opinion, from your research, from your understanding, how long ago did this dark agenda to wage war to destroy

Christian America begin? Well, I think it's always been there. But, you know, this book

I've written, Dark Agenda, I start with the 60s, because it's when a Supreme Court decision outlawed prayer in the schools, which wound up outlawing religion in the schools.

You know, people had prayed every day in school for 170 years, and then six justices just decided it was unconstitutional, so much for precedent, so much for stare decisis.

And you can't find a single liberal today who yells stare decisis over Roe v.

Wade, saying, oh, it's also terrible that we drove religion out of the schools.

The fact is, today, you can't teach children that the pilgrims were

Christians fleeing religious persecution. They can't know where their freedom comes from or what the reasoning was behind it.

You know, what I just said a little earlier in the show. That just denied them. Elizabeth Warren, who's, you know, thanks to her lies about her

Indian heritage, got to be a professor at Harvard. She's an ignoramus. She attacks, which she doesn't understand the

Constitution. So is Cory Booker, who went to, what, Oxford and Yale, said we have to get rid of the bigotries in the

Constitution. There are no bigotries in the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't mention the words black or white or, for that matter, male or female.

Elizabeth Warren and the Democrats, they want to get rid of the electoral college, the Senate, because they're not democratic.

It's not one person, one vote. But that's what the founders wanted.

And why did they want it? Because they didn't trust the people. On the one hand, they said, you know, monarchy is bad because it leads to a tyranny.

You can't vest the authority of one person, so they made the people sovereign. And then they tied their hands with checks and balances.

The whole idea of the electoral college is to force the radical coast to have to win votes in the

Midwest so they learn how to compromise, so we have a peaceful society instead of anarchy in the streets, which the

Democrats are physically fomenting these days. Now, most leftists and liberals perpetuate this understanding of conservative evangelical

Christianity that we have a motive to basically turn this nation into a theocracy, and therefore those that are outside of the

Christian religion are going to lose all their rights. They really have a very dramatic and frightening view.

Well, they don't begin to understand. Of course not. Why is America a secular republic?

I mean, I discuss this in my book, Dark Agenda. It's a secular republic because it was created by Protestant Christians who were, you know, there were many

Protestant sects, and they had been persecuted by each other, so they didn't want a theocracy.

And the people who say that are just ignorant. I mean, it's just rampant ignorance on the left.

And one of the reasons is the left has taken over our schools, purged conservatives from the faculties.

You know, so they lowered the, you know, if you eliminated the liberal arts colleges in this country, you would raise the

IQ level of the country immediately, because you have these idiot ideologues.

For example, I spoke at Dartmouth. Well, I didn't speak because they made it a circus.

I mean, they came to the event, turned on their computers, and played porn films as loud as they could to obstruct my speech.

You know, they turned it into a circus. But I was told by the conservative students there that the course in the

Cold War, a war with the slave empire, the Soviet Union, the professor who teaches that is a

Marxist who identifies with the slave system, pro -Soviet.

That's the sad state of our universities. Most people don't quite realize that. But that's the truth.

So are you an optimist or a pessimist? I mean, there's Cortez. Cortez, he graduated from college.

He's a moron. He doesn't know anything. Now, are you an optimist or a pessimist in this war against the

Christian America? I am a believer in, you know, pessimism of the intellect, so you know who you're dealing with, and optimism of the will.

And just to clarify something, I do make a distinction between a theocracy and ecclesiocracy because I know that the founders did not want a specific denomination to have authority and establish a religion here.

But at the same time, I do believe that they wanted the law of God to dominate.

Yeah, but they're against an orthodox view of God.

They have to respect being Protestants, that all churches and all religions are subject to corruption by individuals.

Right, right, they were against a sectarian government. You can't have a theocracy unless you have an official religion.

Right. And they were against that. Yes. That's why we have a secular republic. So what do you...

People on the left have no idea of that. They're at war. They're trying...

Look, why is Chick -fil -A being denied stores and airports? Because they serve bad chicken?

No! It's because with their philanthropic arms, they support 501c3s that express

Christian views. Right. The left wants to suppress Christianity. For the left, religious freedom means you can have any religious view you want, but just keep it to yourself.

That's the end of the First Amendment. Yeah, and any religion that you want accepts evangelical

Christianity. And, of course, they have their own religion. They have their own religion. The people who accuse

Christians of wanting to establish theocracy are theocrats themselves.

Their religion is atheism. Yes, exactly what I was just trying to say. Yes. Now, what is your counsel, what are your ideas on how the citizens of this country are to combat this as an agnostic judge?

The biggest problem is that there are a lot of Christians. Politics is ugly, and a lot of Christians don't want to get involved.

Well, there are two problems. In the book, I show

Roe v. Wade, which is the most atrocious Supreme Court decision of all.

And if you wonder why the Supreme Court is making so many bad decisions, evil ones, inventing rights that don't exist, dividing the country, think of it this way.

Think of what the Supreme Court is. It's nine lawyers appointed for life by politicians.

Now, how could that go wrong? You know, the evangelical community saved this country by electing

Trump, and showed that they're not mindless people. I mean, Trump hasn't exactly led the most

Christian of lives. But religious people are actually smart.

Leftists have contempt for religious people, and they're incredibly bigoted.

This jerk, Buttigieg, who attacks Pence. When Buttigieg came out as gay and introduced his husband,

Pence went out of his way to praise him for being mayor of the

South Bend, which he doesn't deserve. South Bend is a mess. But it was a very generous

Christian gesture that Pence made to him. And this jerk is attacking

Pence as a bigot because he's a defender of religious freedom.

Now, let me ask you a question. As an agnostic Jew, are you personally offended when

Christians like myself have a passion to see all men, whether they are

Jew, Muslim, whatever religion or non -religion they happen to embrace, we want to see all men come to faith in Jesus Christ so that they may receive eternal life?

No, because I'm not threatened as an agnostic. I mean, I just am what I am. But you don't view this as bigotry or hatred.

You view this as love, don't you? That we would want you to share in what we believe. Yeah, but what I don't understand is why

Christians who go across the globe to save souls will not, you know, the ones who don't want to engage in politics, not save, you know, the soul of America or Americans by fighting these anti -religious bigots.

Don't call them liberals. They're vindictive bigots is what they are. I mean, if you read in my book how

Obama pursued the Little Sisters of the Poor, it's unbelievable. These were, you know, middle -aged nuns taking care of the elderly poor since the 15th century.

And the Obama administration required them to hand out condoms. They don't even have childbearing women that they're taking care of.

And they wanted to destroy the Little Sisters of the

Poor because they were religious. They forced them to go up to the Supreme Court and spend, you know,

God knows how much money. People have to understand how sinister the left is. And I mean every single, yeah, every single candidate running for the

Democratic nomination is part of this unconscionable vendetta against Christianity in America.

Yeah, I like the way that you distinguish between liberal and leftist because most people don't.

They will call liberals... The only liberals in America are Republicans and conservatives.

Classic liberals, yeah. Not just classic. The Democrats are vindictive bigots.

If you disagree with them, you know, over whether America should have borders or not, they call you a racist.

That is not liberal. As I just said, I haven't been able to visit a university in 20 years without a bodyguard.

That's not liberal. That's right. Our universities are not liberal. They're totalitarian little states.

They shut you up. I don't know if you saw this insane video of the

Democratic Socialists of America convention. Yes, I did when they were...

When they complained about sensory overload. These people are totalitarians.

The proper terms for Democrats today, not for voters. People are, you know, semi -informed about everything.

But of the Democratic Party leadership is they are communists. They want to control everybody's life, and you have, in your wildest imaginations, you wouldn't have thought that somebody could feel persecuted because he has sensory overload.

And complain about it to a convention. They would all defer to him.

Now, how do you describe yourself ideologically? I know people that would once call themselves conservatives who don't even like that term anymore because they don't think there's anything left to conserve.

They would just consider themselves either patriots... Well, that's wrong. Well, that's wrong. I mean, we still have a constitution that we can defend.

How would you define yourself? A conservative? Patriot? All of the above? Well, my conservatism is defense of the founding.

That's what I believe in. I believe this is a great country, and it's unique, and it's the last, best hope of mankind.

I believe all that, and I'm fighting to preserve that because I know that, you know, my former comrades,

I see what they've become. It's revolting. And I see how far they've penetrated everything, including

Fox News. You know, how many people know that there was a specific attack on the

ICE building? Yes. Prime suspects have got to be anti -far leftists because they attacked an

ICE facility in Washington. You don't even see it mentioned in the media. I was watching Fox. They don't even mention it.

You know, but... Well, they don't give it enough... I think we're in very dark times. We're on the brink.

But, you know, the problem with, you know, traditional conservatives, they're fatalistic.

They throw in the towel before the fight. Yeah. That's what's so great about what Trump has done.

He's shown people on the right how to fight. Just go in their face.

Yes. You know, there's an attack on Elijah Cummings of the Oversight Committee, blaming him for Baltimore.

Of course. Of course. Black people in the inner cities are oppressed by Democrats, and mainly by black

Democrats who are corrupt. That's how it works. You know, billions...

Actually, in the war on poverty, we've spent something like $27 trillion in the last few decades.

And it hasn't moved a needle one notch in how much poverty there is.

You know, it's all screwed up. But the Democratic Party and these black

Democrats are making a lot of money. They're doing fine. But come on, if white people were running the inner city, you know what they'd be called.

But it's only Trump Trump actually called Cummings a racist. And by Democratic Party standards, of course he's a racist.

Right. In fact, if these white leftists who are running for office were really authentic in what they say, they should just step down and let

Cory Booker and any other person of color continue to run. Why are they even running?

I mean, if they were actually being honest with their rhetoric. Well, I think it's great. You know, it's a racist party, which is a grave danger to the country.

The Democratic Party is a party of racists. Identity politics is racist. Yes, it is.

It says that what's most important is the color of your skin, your gender, your sexual orientation.

That's why they were, you know, prepared to lynch Justice Kavanaugh because he's white and male.

That's it. Well, David, I hope that you come back on the program again. And if I don't mind saying so,

I hope you come back on as a born -again believer in Christ Jesus. That's for sure. But I love having you on.

And I look forward to having you back. I want to make sure our listeners have your website. It is the

HorowitzFreedomCenter .org H -O -R -O -W -I -T -Z

FreedomCenter .org And I assume that's where people can go to get your book as well.

Yeah, look. Yeah, I'm grateful that you're concerned about my eternal soul.

Amen. But you can also think about it this way. Maybe, assuming there is a

God, that He created me to be a witness. Well, all things that happen definitely occur by His decree.

The army of the Lord. I mean, you could look at it that way. Well, I still hope that you become my brother in Christ.

But yes, everything that does happen occurs according to the decree of God. I do believe that. But I look forward to having you back on and keep me updated on everything you're writing and places where you're speaking and all that.

All right. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, David. And coming up now, folks, we have a returning guest, a dear friend of mine,

Gary DeMar, President of American Vision. We're going to be continuing the theme of the war to destroy

Christian America or to destroy the Christian influence upon America. And if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the remaining 90 minutes of the show is

Gary DeMar. He is president of American Vision and author of a number of books and one of my favorite guests of all.

And we are going to be discussing how Christians should engage in battle in the war to destroy the

Christian influence upon America. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Gary DeMar.

Hey, Chris. Good to be back. And you were right. You do have a lot of commercials on your show. That's the only way

I can survive, brother. And so tell our listeners who, if there is some miracle here and we have listeners that do not know anything about American Vision, why don't you let our listeners know about this ministry?

Well, American Vision has been around since the late 1970s. I came on board in 1980.

And American Vision, as its name says, it was to reintroduce

Christians to America's Christian heritage going back to the early founding era.

But while I've been at American Vision, we've expanded that to a

Christian worldview that the Bible applies to every area of life, that Christians need to understand that all of life comes under the jurisdiction of God's sovereignty and kingdom principles, and that they are responsible for applying those

Christian principles in every area of life, beginning in terms of self -government, family government, church government, and even including civil government and its many jurisdictional limitations.

Great. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about American Vision, you can go to AmericanVision .org,

AmericanVision .org. You'll find out all about the many books that Gary has written in addition to other resources that he has available, and I'm sure you will be blessed by them.

Well, let's start off with a term, Christian America. We just had a half -hour interview with David Horowitz, an agnostic

Jew, who wrote a book, Dark Agenda, The War to Destroy Christian America. And even though he is an agnostic

Jew, he recognizes that nearly everything you could think of that is good about America is because its roots are in Christianity or in Christians who founded this nation.

Now, the term Christian America, when that word or that phrase,

I should say, comes out of my mouth today, I feel a bit squeamish to be so bold as to say it because we have millions of babies being murdered here.

We have men marrying men, women marrying women, and people getting penalized, punished in various ways, losing their jobs, and on and on I could go.

If they were dared to question, especially the sexual preference of someone or the sexual identity that someone claims, and on and on.

So how do you react to what I just said, and how do you view the term Christian America?

I think it's important to understand that Israel was founded as a nation based upon the sovereignty of God over all of life, and who had given them commandments and so forth.

And there were threats concerning that. Deuteronomy chapter 28, we see in the prophets promises of judgment, threatenings of judgment because of their going after the idols of the nations and following the prescripts of idol worship and all the things related to that.

And at the same time in saying that, we also have to maintain that Israel was, in fact, a nation founded on God's word.

So it's no different in the United States where all of the colonies, I mean even

Rhode Island and Roger Williams, all of the colonies were based upon a

Christian foundation. There isn't a single one that was agnostic.

Certainly there wasn't one that was atheistic. North Carolina's state constitution required anyone running for office had to believe in the authority of both the

Old and the New Testaments. And that really didn't change until probably late in the 19th century.

So when you go back and look at the documents, you will see that our early founders, of course the

New England colonies and Virginia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, it was called

Penns Woods. And all of them were founded based on Christian assumptions and Christian principles.

And just like today, Christians grew fat and half -happy with the prosperity that God had blessed them with, and very much like Deuteronomy 8, they forgot the provision.

And I think David Horowitz in his book Dark Agenda, The War to Destroy Christian America, and he acknowledges freely that America was founded on these basic Christian assumptions.

And here he is an agnostic, and yet he has to recognize that the principles of what makes this nation great were carved out of a biblical worldview.

I mean, even someone like Thomas Jefferson, who was not a Christian, he understood the morality of the

New Testament. Of course, he took out all the miraculous aspects, but he kept the morality because he knew that without the moral basis of things, he was not an atheist.

He understood that without God, something else was going to become God, and it always turns out to be the state.

It always turns out to be civil government. No one is an atheist. Atheism is a religion.

Governments like China that is trying to depose Christianity, tearing down churches and threatening

Christians and jailing Christian pastors, they're not getting rid of a religion. They are establishing themselves as the standard religious bearer, the final authority in all things.

It's no different today in the United States. Those who are persecuting Christianity are the ones who want to establish their understanding of the world as the foundation of everything, and it is just as theocratic as Israel's state religion was.

Right. And as far as our primary enemies here in the

United States, when I say our, I mean Bible -believing Christians, can you go through some of these enemies that we should be aware of?

Because some of them might not be so obvious. In fact, I think one of the greatest dangers of the preservation of biblical

Christianity, or should I say one of the greatest dangers against it, is modern -day ecumenism that is practiced by conservatives.

I think that conservatives, while we should be rightfully involved in co -belligerence, and I mean every time we vote for somebody who's not a

Bible -believing Christian, we're really being a participant in co -belligerence, whether we know it or not.

But there's a difference between that and identifying our pro -life

Mormon friends and our pro -life Roman Catholic friends and our pro -life even agnostic or atheist friends or our conservative, our fiscally conservative homosexual friends.

And that, by the way, that category seems to be a growing identity amongst hosts and guests on Fox News.

There seems to be more and more people who are fiscally conservative homosexuals.

But what is your view on who we should be viewing as the enemy and how we should respond to that enemy?

I think our biggest problem isn't the homosexuals of Fox News or the rest of the cadre of pragmatists, economic pragmatists.

It's always kind of humorous when you find homosexuals being free market, advocates of the free market, when homosexuality isn't future -oriented at all.

And economics is certainly future -oriented. Decisions we make today regarding economics have ramifications generationally.

Very good point. Very, very good point. And it's the same with all of these groups.

Their eschatology, their... In fact, David Horowitz has this great concept here.

In fact, it's not unique to him. It was the same thing that Rush Doody had said on page 29 of Radical Faith.

He says about his parents, and he grew up amongst communists, and he writes,

For them, communism was the vision of a future in which the long history of social injustice would finally come to an end.

When I eventually rejected this illusion, I realized that their atheistic creed was itself a form of religious faith.

Their god was history, which they viewed in an inexorable march to a promised land.

And that's the problem. Their worldview leads to no future.

You have the abortionists who are killing off their future, and the homosexuals who can't breed. They can't have children.

And here they are adopting, and I'm a post -millennialist, so they're adopting a post -millennial view of history, and yet they have no way of making it work.

Now, at the same time, unfortunately, we've got Christians out there who say, Oh, we shouldn't be involved in the world.

We should just preach the gospel. Jesus didn't get mixed up in politics. Politics is dirty.

There's a separation between church and state. Our citizenship is in heaven. We can't impose our morality on other people.

Jesus said not to judge. Jesus told Pilate his kingdom is not of this world. And so we've got

Christians out there who ought to be leading the way, because we believe in the god of history, and instead they have taken themselves out of the fight.

And the other side is winning, not because they have a better worldview. They're winning by default because so many

Christians, millions of Christians, don't have this idea of a comprehensive biblical worldview, even though they have all the equipment to make that worldview work.

One of the things that I hear very often from the mouths or pens of professed evangelicals,

I'm not talking about liberals, professed evangelicals who are even professedly conservative in many areas.

They might even believe in biblical inerrancy. But they will say that since Jesus was known for his compassion for the underdog, for the poor, the downtrodden, the helpless, that Democrats and liberals very often are a better model of Christ.

And when we bring up abortion, they'll say, well, it's really a moot point because Republicans don't do anything about the abortion issue.

They're cowards, they're inept, they're impotent. They just use it as a tool to gain votes from evangelicals and Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and whoever else might vote for a pro -life candidate.

And they really don't believe in it anyway. So how do you respond to that kind of an evangelical? Well, I think they're right.

I think the political conservatives have been using the church and Christians for many, many decades, making all these promises of what they're going to do, and they don't follow through.

Here we had both chambers of Congress, we had the

House, we had the Senate, we didn't really have a Supreme Court, but although we have very, very close to that, and we had the presidency.

Here we had all of the basic ammunition, I hate to use that word, but we had all of the basic means to overturn abortion, to stop this crazy notion of same -sex marriage and transgenderism and so forth, and they didn't do it.

And so, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Many, many Republicans who claim to be conservative are cowards.

They do not follow through on the promises they make, and they make the Bible -believing

Christians frustrated and demoralized, because it's like the boy who cried wolf, in this sense it's the boy who cried progress and so forth, and they don't deliver.

So I think they're absolutely right about that. And I think there are a lot of Christians who would say the same thing.

And the first point you made about the compassion of Jesus, you will not find one thing in the

Bible where it says that power ought to be given to the state to solve economic problems.

So when you were saying they were right, they were only half right. Yeah. You see, the

Eighth Commandment is very clear, thou shalt not steal. And there's no add -on to that, thou shalt not steal except by majority vote.

The state isn't permitted to steal. Most government spending today is based upon theft.

Everything you're hearing from the Democrats right now is we are going to steal money from millions of Americans, and we're going to give it to other people who did not earn it.

That is a form of slavery. That's what slavery was all about. You're going to work for me, and I'm going to take your labor, and I'm going to profit by it.

But Christians, they're not taught to think in these terms.

They have no conception of this, because they're not hearing it from the pulpit, they're not hearing it from their Christian leaders.

Yes, the Bible does talk about caring for the poor, but you never hear that the civil magistrate is supposed to do this.

Jesus never called on Caesar to help the poor. Jesus never called on Caesar to educate people.

This is the responsibility of individuals in terms of self -government, family government, and church government.

Churches today, think about churches today. They have Sunday school classes, large places for worship that remain empty six days a week while the

Christian parents are sending their children to schools that deny everything they say they believe in.

So why are we blaming the young believers who are acting like unbelievers?

The problem is that within the church, there are so many Christians who are acting like unbelievers.

No Jew would have ever thought of voluntarily turning their children over to Babylon. Right, I love the line, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me, who

I'm sure you're familiar with. He said, basically, if Christian parents are sending their children off to be educated by Caesar, don't be surprised when they return home

Romans. Yeah, and worshiping the state. Again, we see this very clearly in the

Gospels, where here you had a group of religious leaders. I mean, these are the guys who were supposed to be teaching the people

God's word, and here they want to go crucify, use the state to crucify

Jesus, and Pilate calls out, crucify your king, and they call out, we have no king but Caesar.

And Christians might not be saying we don't have any king but Caesar, but many of them act as if they do hold to Caesar as being their king because they turn to the state for everything.

Again, this is not everyone. You and I know lots of people who don't do this, but we know the frustration of trying to get

Christians active and beginning to change their culture from the inside out.

We have to go to our middle break, and I know that you, Gary, may be disappointed about the many ads that are going to be heard, but it is a necessity.

This is a break that's longer than normal because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us this midway break to be longer because they air their own public service announcements and commercials during this longer break to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, which the FCC requires. So please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break.

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Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best.

Iron. Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is

Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV, with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

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And before I return to Gary DeMar, we have just a few public service announcements, or a few events

I should say, that we need to let you know about because they're very important events. On Saturday, September 7th at 6 .30

p .m., my friend Bruce Bennett, pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, is going to be debating

Matthew Luke Broderick. The theme is, Is the Office of Pope Biblical?

That's a debate between Pastor Bruce Bennett, an Evangelical Protestant, and Matthew Luke Broderick, a

Roman Catholic apologist. Saturday, September 7th, 6 .30 p .m., at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

For more information, go to wotchurch .com that's W -O -T which stands for Word of Truth church .com,

that's wotchurch .com or call 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

And then, in December, I'm packing up my bags and heading back to my old stomping grounds in Manhattan to the

Foundations Conference, a conference orchestrated and hosted by sermonaudio .com

This will be held in the heart of the Christmas season, and I can't think of a better place to be during Christmas time than New York City.

That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, and God willing, I will be there, and I hope you are too, if you are a man in ministry leadership.

In order to attend this event, since it is such a small venue, less than 200 people can attend.

They are requiring that all who register are men in ministry leadership. Speakers include

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Rev. Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Colwell Jr.,

and Andrew Quigley. If you'd like to join me there in New York City, Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, for the

Foundations Conference, remember, Christmas season, no better place in the world to be than in Manhattan during the heart of the

Christmas season. Go to thefoundationsconference .com thefoundationsconference .com Then in January, I hope

I see my friend Gary DeMar again in the Atlanta area, like I did the last time I was there at the

G3 Conference. Gary and I had a nice lunch together and even got our hair cut together. But the

G3 Conference is going to be held in a suburb of Atlanta, that's College Park, Georgia, and that's at the

Georgia International Convention Center. That's Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th. The theme is

Worship Matters. And this is a phenomenal event and they always have an extraordinary lineup.

They have the lineup featuring Kosti Hinn, who is the nephew of the notorious heretic

Benny Hinn. Kosti has renounced his uncle's heresy and has repented of the

Word of Faith movement that he was raised in. He is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist and was until recently pastoring in California.

Now he's pastoring in Arizona. A remarkable young man. I strongly urge you to come hear him speak.

Daryl Bernard Harrison, who is a new addition to the Grace TU Ministries lineup, the ministry of John MacArthur.

David Miller, who is really a powerful old school preacher and evangelist. Derek Thomas, a name that is certainly well known amongst the majority of Reformed Christians.

My friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Dr. Joel Beeke, another friend of mine going back to the 1990s, who is the president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary.

Once again, we have Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer on the roster at this lineup. Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace TU, the ministry of John MacArthur.

Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. My friend Todd Freel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. Tom Askell, executive director of Founders Ministries, the

Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention. Votie Baucom, who I just quoted earlier. A remarkable preacher, one of the most powerful preachers alive today, and more.

And, as you may have heard both me and Dr. James R.

White mention, John MacArthur has been added to the lineup. So, they usually get about 5 ,000 people or more to this event.

I think that with the addition of John MacArthur they're going to have over 6 ,000 people there. So, I would register as soon as you can at g3conference .com

g3conference .com. I will be manning an exhibitors booth there, so look for me if you register and you attend.

And, if you have a business or a parachurch ministry or something that you want to promote to a large group of people, especially a large group of Christians and especially a large group of Reformed Christians, then

I would suggest strongly that you register for an exhibitors booth there, like I am doing. So, go to g3conference .com

g3conference .com and register and mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you do so.

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You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what I believe. Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Gary DeMar.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And Gary, we have a question for you from Grady, a very faithful listener of Iron Sherpins Iron Radio in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Grady says, another great show, Brother Chris. Brother Gary, the social justice movement coming into the church in my opinion is another way to undermine not only our freedoms of religion, but to divide the true church and produce a false gospel.

Do you agree with that assessment? I do, and of course, the first thing

I want to know is it seems like everybody has been invited to speak at the G3 conference but me. Well, I hope that then in 2021 that changes.

Yeah, yeah, because I come down there, visit you, we have lunch together, get our hair cut, and I'm not even invited. Well, I don't make those decisions.

I did tell them about Kosti Hinn, and they had invited him, so I'll make sure they try to invite you.

Yeah, look, I'm free transportation. You don't have to pay airfare, put me up in a hotel or anything. Right. Anyway, the social justice, isn't it interesting how the left loves to capture a movement and define it with terms that we can agree with.

We like justice. I mean, the Bible talks about let justice roll down. In fact, the strange thing is that that Bible verse is what the organization in Alabama uses.

What's the name of them? Southern Poverty Law Center. Martin Luther King Jr.

takes the passage out of the prophet, and then he uses it.

It's on their, I think there's a waterfall and so forth and so on.

So here you have an organization that is anti -Christian. I mean, anti -anti -Christian.

You get on their hate list, and you are bounced off of sometimes social media. You can't get a

PayPal account and all sorts of things. They've taken the concept of justice, and they've twisted it.

And I think that's what we're finding out today. I believe in social justice.

The question is, how do you define that, and then how do you bring it about? And that's the problem that we're facing today.

But what we find in the social justice movement that's coming into the Church, again, lots of Christians who have no concept of what the

Bible says about these issues don't like the... I mean, they say, well, we're all for social justice, and these people know more about it than we do, so let's bring them into our

Church so they can teach us what this all means and bring about what they're doing with transgender people and homosexuals and the poverty issue and all those kinds of things, and say, oh, yeah, let's go along with this.

They've been practicing this for a very long time, and we feel guilty because of this. And again, we're back to the idea that pastors and churches, not all of them, but many pastors and churches, are not applying the

Bible to the world in which we live. They don't know how to apply the concept of justice in the area of economics.

They think raising taxes on corporations somehow is a just thing to do. Redistribution of wealth, they think that's a just thing to do.

And we've had this going on for 50 or more years, and why are we still having a problem with it today when we have spent through the

Great Society and during FDR's administration, we've put all these programs into effect, and we have homelessness in California and other major cities.

We have blacks of high unemployment. Cities like Baltimore that have gotten billions of dollars in aid taken from taxpayers and given to the city of Baltimore, and they've got rat infestations in the city.

You've got Chicago where murders take place on a daily basis. We talk about shooting people and Walmart and so forth and so on.

Tragic, tragic, tragic thing. But the city of Chicago has anywhere from 30 to 50 fatalities or at least shootings every month in the city.

So, again, definitions, what do we mean by social justice, and then application, where do we go in order to determine what social justice means, and that would be my response.

A long one, but in these days you have to really qualify everything. That's right, you do. Thank you,

Grady. Let's see, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, it seems that we who are conservative

Christians fall on either one extreme or the other, and I'm wondering if there is a meeting round in between.

You have on one hand, on one end of the spectrum, people that do not believe that pastors or churches as an institution should be actively involved in politics, although they do say that individual

Christians should be in some level. Then on the other hand, you have people who have churches having political figures who are running for office speaking from their pulpits, and they come very close to equating political activism with spreading the gospel.

Isn't there a medium somewhere that is truly biblical that does not threaten the true gospel, which is not the kind of transformation that politics brings?

I get this question all the time, and it's a very good question. I don't like the idea of middle ground, like you've got to find the middle ground.

I think, again, we have to define our own terms here. You know, I've been a

Christian for more than 40 years. I understand the gospel. How many times do

I have to go to church on Sunday or listen to somebody and keep hearing the same message over and over and over again?

There's 66 books of the Bible. You cannot go through the books of judges,

Samuel, the prophets, the New Testament, and not deal with political issues.

It's all over the Bible. I'm not saying that you have to preach on politics, per se.

I think what you need to do is just preach the Bible. And so when you get to passages like 1 Samuel chapter 8, you say, what is going on here?

Here the people are given a choice. You know, they want to let God pick a king for them, or God says, hey,

I'm going to let you pick your king, and this is what this king is going to do. Man, that's political. But it's also theological.

We can't separate the polis, the city, the political aspect of things, from theology.

Everything is theological. God created civil government. We have

Romans chapter 13. What does it mean for the civil magistrate to be a deacon of God, to be a minister of God?

What does it mean for the civil magistrate to have the power of the sword? That means we have to limit the state and define what the state can do with that sword.

This is all through the Bible. And if you are hearing the same message

Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, and are not dealing with parts of the

Bible that are in fact political, then you're really not hearing the whole counsel of God.

I don't want to hear someone getting up and saying, who to vote for, and so forth and so on, although there's no law that says you can't do that.

But let's be clear about this. A pastor is not getting up and dealing with the abortion issue and the homosexual issue, both which are in the

Bible. And with the social welfare programs, also economics is all through the

Bible. We're not getting a full -orbed Christian worldview being taught from the pulpit.

It's not a dilution of the gospel. The gospel is you proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ, you put your faith and trust in Him, there's a conversion that takes place, a transformation that takes place from the inside out.

And the writer of Hebrews in chapter 5, he stops in mid -thought on Melchizedek, and he says, you know,

I can't go on and teach you on this, because by this time you should be teachers of the

Word of God. Now you are on milk, and you should be on solid food, and you need to have your senses trained to discern good and evil.

Good and evil about what? Good and evil about everything. And so the whole

Bible has to be taught about the whole of life, and that includes everything from a biblical perspective.

Do you not think, though, that there are churches that fall into the pit and perhaps even individual

Christians where they really think that the gospel is political transformation as far as seeing the nation becoming more conservative.

And as much as I believe abortion is infanticide, it is from the pit of hell, it's satanic, becoming pro -life isn't the gospel, or telling people to become pro -life.

Of course it is something that Christians should do. We should be telling people thou shalt not murder.

But there are many things that you'll have churches thinking this is the gospel.

It's really like a new kind of social gospel. Whereas on the one hand, you had feeding the poor and other things, which are important things, becoming the gospel.

For the conservative, it's voting according to the way that they want their

Republican candidates to be running, what kind of platform they're running on.

That almost becomes synonymous with the gospel. I really don't hear you're probably out amongst people like this more than I am.

I don't hear people making that sort of claim. My circle of friends are, look, if you're a

Christian, the whole Bible is God's word and we should be applying it. What should the

Christian be doing? Where in the Bible does it talk about abortion? And I could go through and do all of that.

Where does the Bible talk about homosexuality? I could do that. Where's the Bible? What does the Bible say about economics?

With a renewed mind, Romans chapter 12, if you have a renewed mind, you are now looking at the

Bible as a moral and ethical standard by which your new, being a new creature in Christ is evaluated.

I mean, that's what the book of James is all about. You can make all kinds of fancy statements regarding what you actually believe, but James is very clear in saying, look, if you're not manifesting this stuff in the real world, you can't say be warmed and be filled and think that you are manifesting the gospel message.

So, again, definitions of things are very important.

Look, the reason I'm involved in politics is because I believe that God has directed through His Word that there are several definitional governments.

There's self -government under God, the individual's self -discipline. There's family government, and there's church government, and there's civil government.

That's all in the Bible. You can't get away from that. There's a jurisdictional separation between church and state in the

Bible. The civil magistrate in Romans chapter 13 is given a directive to make distinctions between good and evil.

How does He do that? And yet, in Romans chapter 13, you see Paul manifestly quoting the law.

1 Timothy chapter 1. There's this moral explanation of what you are as a

Christian. Look, the reason Jesus died on the cross is because we fell short of a moral standard.

Why all of a sudden when we come to Christ that that moral standard doesn't mean anything anymore?

It still doesn't mean something anymore. We hear all the time, oh, we're not under the law, we're under grace.

Well, in terms of justification, that's true, but not in terms of living the life of a

Christian. I always talk to people, and so you're saying it's okay to murder and steal and rape now? Oh, no, no, I'm not saying that.

I say, what are you saying then? The new life in Christ is a manifestation of that new life and the deeds that we perform in terms of God's moral standard.

Now, I wouldn't say, going back to what you had mentioned earlier about I may have different people that I'm witnessing and hearing from and about.

I don't hear anybody saying that political activism is the gospel. They're not identifying it.

They're not conscious of this. But the way that they speak and act very often reveals they are confusing these things.

Like, for instance, I have had conversations with a number of people who are convinced Glenn Beck is a born -again

Christian. Glenn Beck is a Mormon. He's a

Mormon. And you have the very well -known pastor in Texas who's on Fox News a lot who seems to be convinced

Donald Trump is a Christian. You know, you have these kinds of things where people are identifying people as brothers and sisters in Christ just because of the way they vote or the causes they support.

And it has nothing to do with the gospel. Right. Yeah, I would agree with that, of course. That we need again, we're back to definitions again.

What is the... I was called up by a lawyer for me to help in a school case a

Christian school, and they have this family, which is a Mormon family, brought their

Mormon...one of their Mormon children to come to this particular school. They were told ahead of time what this school stands for.

In fact, I used to teach at that school. I taught a worldview class there. I dealt with cults, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the

Nation of Islam, and so forth and so on. It was very, very clear that Mormonism is considered a cult in terms of Christian standards.

Well, now I learned that the family is trying to sue the school because they've defined

Mormonism as a non -Christian religion. And the school, of course, is standing as ground.

I think that's a little different from this idea that if you're not out there being involved politically in conservative standards, that you're not preaching the

Gospel. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Gospel is the starting point, being born again as a starting point for a new life in Christ that embraces every area of life.

I mean, it's obvious that Glenn Beck is not a Christian in terms of how you define a

Christian, and the same is true with others who...

Look, you and I know there's all kinds of crazy people out there who claim to be

Christian. Right. And let's see here. We have

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, When we speak to our family, friends, and neighbors who are not

Christian, shouldn't we always be presenting the Gospel that they must repent and follow

Christ, first and foremost, before and above all of our political conversation?

Well, I think the first step is, in fact, the Gospel. When I became a new Christian, I was at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, where D.

James Kennedy was the pastor. And by the way, D. James Kennedy was involved in politics.

Yes, he was. Big time. And he had a number of conferences there.

I used to speak at some of those conferences. I was on his radio show.

I wrote a book for the ministry. So, D. James Kennedy was involved in biblical worldview

Christianity. But if... But when it came to, what's the first thing that needs to be done, it's the presentation of the

Gospel. I remember going to lunch with him one time, and he just easily engaged the young woman who was waiting on us with the

Gospel. The famous two questions. If you were to die tonight, you know for sure that you'd go to Heaven.

And if you were to die tonight and you stood before God and God asked you, why shall I let you into Heaven, what would you say? And that was the introduction to the

Gospel. D. James Kennedy understood that the Gospel is the first step.

Being born again is the first step. But you don't leave somebody to be an infant. Growth in Christ is necessary.

There's a time for milk and there's a time for meat and solid food. Politics and economics and education and journalism and medicine and science are all a part of that.

We have John in Bangor, Maine who asks, how do we prevent ourselves from turning our rightful righteous indignation and comments, especially in public, from turning those things into hateful speech and let ourselves be puffed up with pride and arrogance?

It's very simple. Don't do it. I'll be 70 years old next year.

Wow, really? That's frightening in and of itself. And so I've been around a long time and I've made mistakes and I've watched other people make mistakes.

I'm very practiced in when I comment on Facebook and so forth, and I have a little saying.

I say, don't give anyone an excuse to reject your position other than the position itself.

And so you just need to practice doing this. You just need to stick to the issues when things...

Don't let things get heated. Don't let someone get under your skin like what happened with Chris Cuomo when he was called

Fredo. I would never do something like that. Threaten to throw the guy down the staircase, you mean?

Yeah, I mean, you just stay away from that argument. Don't attack the person.

Stick with the issues. Don't give anyone an excuse to reject your position. You're not going to win every argument.

In fact, you probably won't win many arguments. Your goal should be to attract people who are...

The old 10 -10 -80 rule was Oskianus wrote a book a number of years ago and he said, remember 10 -10 -80.

Basically, there are 10 people on one side of the position. The book is called The Gravedigger File.

Very, very good book to read on this sort of thing. 10 % on one end of the spectrum.

Everybody at the G3 conference, you and I and James White and so forth, we're part of that 10%.

We kind of know what the issues are. We're good at articulating the issues. We're good at debating.

Then there's the other side of 10%. What we're trying to do is attract the 80 % and there's a spectrum there as well.

You don't want to give people an excuse to reject your position because of the way you act and what you say and so forth.

It just takes practice. Don't let it... Don't let people get under your skin. Don't give them an excuse to reject your position.

I just say, just don't do that anymore. Just stop. Don't do it. Well, sometimes it can be hard, especially if we are involved in the heat of the moment to know when we've crossed the line from being correct in our righteous indignation, as our listener was saying, and it drifts into being hateful and not really being

Christ -like. It's hard. I know it's hard. I've been in some disputes with people and I'm working both sides of my brain at the same time.

I'm really trying to keep myself under control. And it doesn't, again, it doesn't always happen.

I mean, Jesus got kicked off a few times himself. And the Apostle Paul did as well. I mean, if you look at,

I think it's Acts chapter 23, where Paul didn't know he was the high priest, but he calls him a whitewashed wall.

You know, and he didn't apologize, but he used it to his advantage later on.

But you've got to be, you know, you just ... Are you there,

Gary? Yeah, I'm still there. I guess someone was trying to call me. So anyway, you just have to practice not doing that.

That's all I can say. Right. And of course, Jesus Christ did have liberties being the

God -man in certain times and places where he said things that might not be appropriate for us to imitate.

Right. Yeah, we're not, you know, if you had a wristband, what would Jesus do? It doesn't apply to overturning tables and beating people with cords and so forth.

Jesus might do that, but that's not one of the things that we ought to be doing. All right, we have to go to our final break.

It's much more brief than the other breaks, so please just, if you intend to write in a question, do it quickly because we're running out of time.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Gary DeMar in the conclusion of our program today on the war against Christian influence upon America.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

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That's g3conference .com See you there! As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

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I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 1 -27 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows in their affliction.

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Thank you. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back, and Gary, we have a listener.

Let's see here. We have in eastern Suffolk County, we have Ronald who says,

Gary, I know that you are a post -millennialist, but I also know that post -millennialism is often slandered and described as believing that things just keep getting better and better and better.

I know that that is a false caricature, an outright lie, and that beliefs such as the

United States could collapse into an ash heap could very well fit within the post -millennial paradigm because that is not the end of all time.

Do you have any optimism for a long future of the United States of America? I'm a short -term pessimist, long -term optimist.

I actually follow the directive found in 2 Timothy chapter 3.

Most people only quote the first seven verses. They don't read the rest of the chapter, which ends, of course, with all scriptures as God breathed and profitable, etc.,

etc., etc. And so they, you know, Paul is directing his letter to Timothy.

This is the description to Timothy of what's taking place in his own day. The last days there isn't referring to something in the far distant future.

The last days of the Old Covenant was operating at that particular period of time, and what you read in those first seven verses of 2

Timothy chapter 3 is really a depiction of what was taking place through the book of Acts. And so he finishes with this about, you men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, unloving, treacherous, reckless, holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power, etc.,

etc., etc. Verse 7, always learning, never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. And I'll see this posted on Facebook all the time, just those first seven verses.

And if you look at those first seven verses, we are seeing the manifestation of this principle working itself out daily.

Abortion, killing off their future, transgenderism, homosexuality, economic suicide, you can go on and on and on.

We're beginning to see all this falling apart. The question is, what should we do while this takes place?

And this is my frustration, that the churches today aren't teaching an alternative, because in many cases they believe we're living in the last days,

Jesus is coming soon, you don't polish brass or rearrange the deck chairs on the

Titanic because it's all going down. And I've heard a number of very, very, very prominent people make that actual statement.

But then you look at verse 8, it says, and just as Janice and Jambres opposed

Moses, so these men also opposed the truth, men of depraved mind rejected as regards to the faith.

Now, Janice and Jambres were the two sorcerer high priests who were in the

Pharaoh's court and confronted Moses and Aaron. And of course, you know, the battle that took place there, the sorcerer high priests threw down their rods, they became serpents.

Moses throws down Aaron's rod, it becomes a serpent, and consumes them. And so then, look at verse 9, but they will not make further progress, for their folly will be obvious to all, as also that of those who came to be.

And then Paul says, but you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, doesn't sugarcoat it, persecutions, sufferings, such as it happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra, what persecutions

I endured, and out of them all the Lord delivered me. So, and you go on with the chapter there, but hopefully you get the point.

We should be manifesting that type of worldview in every area of life like we used to do, and as while we see the collapse of the leftist,

God -hating, state -adoring worldview of the anti -Christian worldview collapsing under our feet, we will see a transformed culture.

It's been done before, and it can be done again, and that's why I do what

I do. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

First of all, once again, American Vision, the ministry where Gary DeMar serves as president, is

AmericanVision .org, AmericanVision .org. Do you have any other contact information or announcements that you'd like to make as far as books you're writing, special events, etc.?

I have a series up that's coming out piece by piece on eschatology and the importance of eschatology.

You can go to American Vision's Facebook page, and those are posted somewhat on a daily basis.

I'm working on a number of books. I've got 35 other books, and so people want to start somewhere. They can start with ones

I've already written, but you can go to AmericanVision .org and then go to the store and look for books by me.

I have a book on God and government, which deals with the self -government, family government, church government, and civil government, which has been a bestseller and used by homeschoolers and so forth.

Myths, Lies, and Half -Truths deals with Christian excuses that are used in order not to be involved.

So there's a whole bunch of stuff there to keep people busy for a long time. Great. Well, I want to thank you so much for being my guest again, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater