David Ould

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States.

It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line on a Thursday afternoon, the last day of January. Christmas is right around the corner.

It's amazing. That's how fast time goes now. I cannot believe the first month of the new year is already past. How did that happen? I do not know. But anyway, welcome to the program. We are starting early today because British people speak more slowly than the rest of us.

And so then when you throw in an Aussie accent, it really gets messy. He's not even on. Why don't you have him on? Oh, now he's on. OK, good. All right. That's not cruel. It's cruel. No, it's an absolutely accurate observation because you yourself have admitted to me that even your family back in the mother country.

That's right. Have noted that you have become somewhat of a genetic abnormality.

That wasn't an admission. That was me sharing with you some of my deepest, darkest pain. You've become an Aussie Brit.

An Aussie Brit. Which means you're really not at home anywhere because...

I am once more a stranger in a strange land. Is that what we said last time?

Very much so, yes. See, and I didn't put him on because I thought you were going to politely introduce him first. No. I know. No. Why would you expect that? It's the second time he's been on. Remember what I did with John Samson the second time he was on?

You know, first time, I'm nice and gentle. Oh, last time was nice. No, not really, but that's okay. That's okay. You know, I mean, I'm sitting here trying to figure out how I'm ever going to get back down under because I've got a Roman Catholic guy down there who wants to debate me.

Right. And I just listened to a debate with a fellow. He debated Samuel. Yes, Samuel Green. Yes, his name was Uthman something, and I forgot. I was going to write to Abdullah and say, could you please get me his address?

And maybe if Abdullah listens to this, because I need to send him the Forgotten Trinity because he really needs the Forgotten Trinity.

Well, most of them don't understand the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Well, this is true, but I'm going to play this next week. So you're going to be traveling. You probably won't get a chance to hear it unless you grab it.

Oh, I listen devotedly, even when traveling.

Okay, well, if you do, I'm going to play an exchange between Samuel and he on whether God can die. And I don't understand why our brothers struggle with this with Muslims. I mean, he was correct. Samuel is correct to say, well, death doesn't mean nonexistence.

But emphasizing the nature of the hypostatic union and what really happens in the fact we don't believe that's unconsciousness and so on and so forth. I don't know why we struggle with that. It shouldn't it should be.

It should be a positive thing that we're. Anyways, that's neither here nor there. Now, for the four or five people who do not remember the last time that you were with us. Reverend Old, why is it old and not old?

I have no idea. I think because if you add it's O-U-L-D and think about it, if you add an M to it, it would be mold. So it's old. That's just how my that's just how my father.

I think it's just a British thing. It's another extra U.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly. Look, it's an O. Throw in a U.

I think the word is superfluous. It is completely superfluous, even though, as I have admitted, generally when there's a when there's a fundamental difference between American English and British English.

Sorry, between American English and English.

I knew you're going to say that. I was just going to stop there to let you go ahead and say that. Generally, generally, the the small number of people on the small island say it more briefly than we do.

To let for rent. Queue up. Get in line. Yes, it's always a little bit shorter. Yes. Over there. But I've heard studies saying that actually we're the ones that are continuing most of the older ways. And it's the Brits that have done most of the evolving and the crushing of the language.

Crushing of the language.

Crushing of the language. You made evolution into something bad.

Yes. Well, there is a sense. It's the sense of which it is. But anyways, you are touring our great country. We are. I'm not sure why we allow people in so easily. Because we spend money. OK. All right.

I'll let that fly. And you've got this. You got this. You got to visit Mormonville.

We've had an incredible time. I'm actually just finished the position I've been out in Australia after five years. I finished with the Anglican Church I work with. And my wife and I had a little pipe dream halfway through last year.

We said, well, how about we just go and do a big road trip in the United States? Because we love this country and we've kind of not seen anywhere near as much of it as we want to see. What did you see last time?

So we hopped through. We came here to Phoenix where we've got family. And then we rushed through. Well, if you can call Chandler Phoenix. Well, yeah. It's in the desert metropolis as I understand you call this.

And then we jumped in a plane and got out in New York and spent some time with a friend I was with in seminary who's now in Connecticut. And then from there we went on into Europe. We did a quick round the world trip.

So this time we're extending our round the world trip. We're making a three month round the world trip. Three months? Three months. And we're spending two months of it in your beautiful country. We arrived in San Francisco just over two weeks ago.

Spent five or six days there. And then we drove up into the Sierra Nevada and spent some time just on the east of California. Then we drove over into Utah. I was just telling you earlier about just some stunning views.

That view when you break into the Utah salt flats is just unbelievable. You know, lunch at the Bonneville race course on the flats. And then into Salt Lake City where we were hosted by the superb Bill and Tammy McKeever of Mormonism research ministry.

And got to meet Sandra Tanner and all that kind of stuff. And saw Salt Lake City and the temple and all that kind of stuff. From the outside of course because I don't have fancy underpants. And I can't get in.

Fancy underpants. Notice he said that. I would have said he does not possess a valid temple recommend. But anyways.

And then we drove south, Bryce Canyon. And then on the east side of the canyon and up to see the canyon, the Grand Canyon that is. Again, some more stunning views. And here we are in Phoenix, land of the cactus.

Oh yes, land of the cactus. Which at least is pretty here right now.

It's what, 70 degrees? It's balmy compared to, with an L, compared to the weather we had further north. And then we're driving on east, a bit on Route 66. Cutting down to friends in Dallas. We'll do some deep south.

We're going to Florida where the mouse with the big ears reigns. That'll be fun. Mouse with the big ear reigns. Now Darth Vader reigns there too. Is that true? That'll be a lot of fun and the kids might have a good time as well.

Oh they will. Then we're going to drive slowly up the eastern seaboard. Savannah, Georgia up further north. Go by DC. And we're going to end up in Boston and drop our hire car off in Boston. Just over two months after we picked it up in San Francisco.

Our hire car. Rental car. Hired car.

Hired car. Hire car. Don't worry. See this is why I've been going to Europe. I'm learning this language. I've got to say something here because in the U .S. a hired car has a chauffeur. That's true. That's true.

That would be me. That's true. That's how you do it. And then you're hopping the pond and getting to go back.

That's right. So then two weeks with my parents in the north of England. How long are you in the south? In the south of the states. It'll be about another two, three weeks at least.

Now this would really be cool if he could pick up a little bit of southern accent to go with the Aussie stuff and he gets back and they won't even let him out. Completely messed up. They will not even let him out.

That's right.

Then two weeks with my parents. Five days with my best man whose Spanish lives near Madrid. And then ten days with my wife's family and our friends in Singapore. And then we will get back home to Sydney just over three months after we left.

Wow. And then what are you going to do? Well I'm still waiting to hear for a position in Sydney. I can't actually tell you where because it's that kind of thing. And if that falls through, as it may do, who knows?

God is sovereign and good. It's a great combination.

We'll look for what else there is. Well goodness gracious sakes, I cannot imagine. I could not be gone for three months. Really? No. No way. No, no, no, no. I could not do that. I fall apart after about, at times I've gone down there.

I'm getting toward the end of my shelf life by the time I get home. Oh yeah. I'm just not that kind of a traveler. No way.

I love it. I love the novelty of it. And I've been driving all of this. Not that I won't let my wife drive. Well I kind of won't because I just love driving. And this incredible scenery around me. And I understand that may change when I have to hike through some of Texas.

Let me say, once you leave Albuquerque and you start heading for Texas, you're going to skip the real pretty sightseeing part. Yeah, no. I've driven it and it's not overly exciting. But here's the thing.

I'll be able to say I went to Albuquerque. That's right.

That's on your way to Albuquerque. That's right. Which is over 5 ,000 feet elevation. Again. Back up again. You can get up there if you go through Santa Fe. They're at 7 ,000 feet. There's some beautiful stuff over there too.

But anyways. Okay. I just got to ask. Now did you hear the news about who is debating Richard Dawkins? I didn't. Tell me.

Rowan Williams. No. Well they had a conversation last year, didn't they? Sometime this week I think.

Again. Yes. And so when Justin Brierley, in fact I just saw a tweet from Justin. When Justin tweeted that, my response to him was, well that's interesting but who's going to represent Christianity? You might think that.

I couldn't possibly comment. No, you could not possibly comment.

I should say last time he had a conversation with Richard Dawkins in Canterbury Cathedral and Rowan Williams actually did quite well. Really? Well, yeah. I think more because you don't have to work hard to do well against Richard Dawkins.

That's true. He knows next to nothing about those things he claims to criticize. That's true. And it's easy to pretty well rip him apart. And the thing about Rowan Williams is he presents as just very nice and pleasant and cuddly.

And so it's just hard to be. And pagan as well. Well, again, others may have to comment upon that.

I won't ask you any further questions on those subjects. Thank you. I'm obviously uncomfortable but obviously a lot of what we hear around here, I'm afraid that people hear that you're an Anglican and they'll wonder why we're not debating.

Indeed. Because Anglican and Episcopalian means the same thing. Essentially the same thing.

That's right. So the Episcopalian Church of the United States of America is what used to be the Anglican province in the United States. What is it now? Well, it remains an Anglican province in the United States along with the Anglican Church of Canada.

But there is also now the Anglican Church in North America, which consists of parishes and whole diocese, which have disaffiliated from the Episcopal Church and formed up their own body and are essentially just carrying on with gospel ministry.

And they've left the Episcopal Church behind. And every so often a big parish or even a big diocese will leave. And the most recent to leave, and there's a bit of a story around it we can chat about if you like, is South Carolina.

The diocese of South Carolina in the last few months disaffiliated from the Episcopal Church of the United States of America. But they were very cunning about how they did it. The diocesan representatives were at the general convention and protested a number of things that happened there.

And you don't even have to guess anymore the sort of things that the general convention of the Episcopal Church are voting for. They went home to South Carolina and the South Carolina synod itself made a decision that if their bishop, a guy called Lawrence, were to be disciplined in any way by the national church, that the diocese would use that as a prompt to disaffiliate from the Episcopal Church.

Well, of course, what happened? The Episcopal Church disciplined Martin Lawrence. They said it was outrageous that he should have let the diocesan synod take a vote like that. Although, of course, he essentially has no control of it.

He's simply the chair of the synod in that sense. And so it all kind of just went in automatically. What the diocese of South Carolina have done very well is to avoid the fighting over assets and so forth.

That's what I was wondering. How does that work when you've got a centralized church government possessing the...

Well, the argument from the Episcopal Church themselves is that it's a hierarchical organization and essentially the central body rules everything. Dioceses like South Carolina, however, existed long before the Episcopal Church existed.

It used to be a diocese of the Church of England in the United States of America, or the colonies. As they may once more be. And so their argument, rightly so, is we voted to affiliate, we can vote to disaffiliate.

Now, there are no rules in the Episcopal Church for disaffiliation of a diocese. No one contemplated that we would get to this position. But there you are. The law as well, I'm told, in South Carolina is slightly different.

And so there's a better chance. They also issued some quick claim deeds to all the parishes, which gave them control over their own assets. But what's most cunning that they did, and we're cheering them for doing this, is they went to the courts preemptively.

They went to the court preemptively and they put effectively a trademark. They held title over lots of names like the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina, the Episcopal Church in South Carolina, all those kinds of names.

So that when the Episcopal Church, the centralized body, tried to do what they've done in other dioceses, which is to set up like a faux diocese of people loyal to the mothership, they now can't use that name.

Loyal to the mothership. Loyal to the mothership. They now can't use that name. They have, of course. They had one last Saturday and used the Episcopal Church in South Carolina. They found a particular combination of terms that wasn't covered.

But I think we may see that going before a court very, very soon. So we're cheering them on. Who's we? We. So those of us who are in what we call the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans, which is a global body put together by Orthodox, by which I mean right-thinking, not Eastern Orthodox.

It's very confusing, isn't it? Who would be an Anglican? Put together by Orthodox Anglicans around the world. And they're cheering it on. And the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans continues to grow and have people affiliate to it all over the world, not least in the Church of England itself.

Yeah, Church of England. Church of England.

Boy, I go over there and things aren't well in the motherland. Haven't been well for a while.

No. Haven't been well for a while. The Church of England is essentially a little microcosm of the whole Anglican communion. It contains all those different strands of theological thought that you have in the Anglican communion as a whole, which means that you have some outright theological liberalism running amok.

And, of course, that kind of takes over a lot of the institutions because evangelicals have never been good at doing politics. Well, at least not in the Church of England because we just do it in a very British way, don't we?

Oh, yeah. But evangelicals have kind of said, let's just get on with the work in the parishes and evangelizing people and so on, and the liberals have basically run amok.

I think I did mention to you once, but when you're in Channel, you tend to be there and then just sort of disappear and then come back later and things like that. Yeah. But I listened to an unbelievable radio broadcast.

Who was it that he had on? Oh, man. Anyways, he had a Church of England guy on. And this guy, just the quintessential kindly little old British man. Oh, marvelous. I mean, if you just had a picture, he must have been wearing a waistcoat.

Yes. And one of those puffy ties. Puffy tie and a cravat. Yeah, a cravat and a waistcoat and a little hat and a cane. I mean, just straight out of the 1930s. What's that thing that PBS program has taken off?

Oh, Downton Abbey. Downton Abbey. Oh, my goodness. That's 1920s. Everybody's watching this. Insanity. But anyway, that's just what you. And he seems such a nice man. But they were talking about. What were they talking?

They're talking about whether, you know, the exclusive nature of the Gospels. And here's this guy that just sounds like he could be your grandfather. But whenever anything would come up like the deity of Christ, whether Jesus rose from the dead.

Right. All this stuff. Oh, you don't have to believe that anymore. And when I tell people that they come up to me. Oh, it's so wonderful. You know, I'm so glad I don't have to believe this anymore because the world thinks that stuff is so foolish.

And I'm just sitting here going. And but but but it's said with such a such a kind demeanor. And yet it's just it's all I can hear behind is the hiss of Satan for crying out loud. But but you can't say that in certain very kind context.

No, you can't.

And British people will generally be far more polite about how they express their disagreement as well. But there is there is some firm expression going on in the Church of England. What's been really interesting recently, of course, we're struggling with the issue of human sexuality like the other Anglican provinces.

What's been really interesting recently is that two prominent, one very prominent and one rising evangelical ministers in the Church of England have both come out as suffering with homosexual attraction.

And yet saying very clearly they understand that that is not God's good intent for their lives. And so they're battling away at being single. I saw something. Yeah. So the first guy was a chap called Vaughan Roberts, who is the rector of St. Ebbs in Oxford, a huge church amongst the students in Oxford University.

Vaughan Roberts is well respected across conservative evangelicals in the Church of England. And he he I like the word came out because we want to subvert this language, don't we? He basically came out for Jesus and said, I am weak, but his grace is sufficient for me.

And I'm coming public on this issue because we want to say there is a better way than just affirming these desires. We want to say that the Christian life is actually one of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

He will sustain us until that last day when he returns again. And so he did that. And then a while ago, a guy called Sam Albury, who is ministering in the south of England and has written a number of great books.

In fact, his book on the resurrection and another one on the ascension, I believe, are great books. He came out and did the same thing. He said, I have homosexual desires. I don't want them, but there they are.

But the Lord Jesus Christ is master over my life. And in obedience to him and by the power of the spirit, I will continue to live a chaste life and I will encourage others to do the same. And if coming out in this manner helps others to do that.

So that's a bit of a turf war going on there. And over the big thing, of course, is that we have a new archbishop of Canterbury. Yes. Justin Welby, who is well, opinions are mixed. Now, he is more classically evangelical, certainly than Rome Williams ever could be said to be.

He has come out of the Holy Trinity Brompton stable. So where the Alpha courses come from. And when you hear him speak, he certainly espouses speaks of the gospel in terms that you and I would recognize and affirm.

But and there's a big but he is well known as an expert in what people will call reconciliation. And so actually in his previous career in the oil industry and then in a position at Coventry Cathedral, he was is well recognized for having done great work in reconciliation, bringing warring parties together.

However, there is a great fear now amongst some that he will pursue a particular brand of reconciliation in the Anglican communion that will not take seriously enough. The the sin, let's call it that the sin and the heresy of those in the Episcopal Church and elsewhere who oppose the gospel, not least by advocating immoral lifestyles, but elsewhere.

And already we're seeing signs of that, that fracturing starting to happen, even sadly within the ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America. So very recently there was on the web, the website I write for stand firm in faith dot com stand firm.

We've raised this issue recently as we decide it's just best to be friends with nobody by upsetting them all. But we've raised this issue recently. The rector of a parish in Virginia, a parish which quite a few years ago seceded from the Episcopal Church and the diocese of Virginia.

And they form their own little group over the issue of human sexuality. He has now started basically chumming up with the new bishop in Virginia. And they have gone together to a reconciliation meeting at HDB again, Holy Trinity Brompton in London.

And Justin Welby has affirmed that action. And so what you've actually got is just the terrible. It actually pains me to talk about it. That sad situation where the chief pastor of a church who disaffiliated over human sexuality from their denomination is now chumming up and affirming the ministry of a bishop who in the same diocese, who holds the same position over which they previously split.

And we're now starting to talk to them again about brothers with whom we disagree over a big issue, but not big enough for us to divide. And so, you know, I mean, that's just. What do you do? What do you do?

No one's going to like you if you speak up about that thing. And so some of my blogging colleagues at Stanford have taken some hits over that. And we may have been possibly intemperate in the way that we said some things.

But temperate. But the issue the issue is alive. I wouldn't even know what that means. The issue is alive and well. And so the battle is now on, I think, just to we can never be pure as a church. But let's just let's just be really clear about what we split over in the first place and how we are meant to deal with false teachers.

There's more battles yet to come. And it remains to be seen how Justin will be the new archbishop of Canterbury will will will do with that. And so we will continue to pray for him as we ought to.

And, yeah, I, I must confess, it would be difficult. Now, I know you do apologize. Yeah. You've debated some atheists and stuff like that. Yeah, it would be hard for me. I would not do well in your circles.

Yeah, I wouldn't do well in your circles. I couldn't. I do not have the restraint. I mean, turrets and fan just you didn't see this because I think someone's taking a look. By the way, the channel, I would love to have.

Yeah, well, I've got one here. Great. Turrets and fan changes topic to yes. The stream is as air filled as Anglicanism. We are both problem. Ouch.

Hey, I want to say to read and find and I love him dearly. I want to say, listen, we own the evangelicals own the title deeds of the Anglican Communion. When you look at the thirty nine articles and the Book of Common Prayer, they are thoroughly reformed documents.

We do, however, have squatters in the house.

I was I was going to I was about to say, but when you can have bishops who don't know who J .C. Ryle or when he lived. OK, that's right. You know, yeah, that's a good way of describing it is having squatters in the house.

But yeah, for me, the one of the things that's really helped, you know, one of the things that's important for me about a church that I'm going to be a part of. And it's not easy to have me a part of any church, actually.

But there really has to be consistency. I mean, I can go to a reformed Baptist church almost any place. And, you know, walk in and fill the pulpit and there's not going to be much of an issue. Yeah. But there you just go.

What is it? Four hundred and fifty kilometers, something like that north to Brisbane. Yeah. And it's going to be a whole different world up there.

Not even that far. But I won't say where I was. I won't say where. In fact, those who know me. No, I won't say it. No, I won't say it. OK, let me just say to those who know me very well, not very far at all.

Look, it's a big issue. And, of course, it was it's. The Episcopal Church in the United States is much further gone, of course, than than any other province in the communion. Why? Look, I think because the seminaries went early and when the seminaries go, then you produce clergy pastors who are liberal as well.

The American seminaries are farther than English.

The American Episcopal seminaries are farther gone. Really? Oh, certainly, certainly. And that's where it's gone. It has been a long debate in the Church of England. So in a conference, even in 1967, I think the Kiel Conference, Lloyd Jones, Martin Lloyd Jones, a famous Baptist, Baptist, Baptist preacher.

Martin Lloyd Jones. Yes. Was he Baptist? Anyway, good independent, nonconformist, independent congregation, nonconformist, let's call it that. He challenged the Anglicans of the time. So men like Packer and Stott with great evangelical pedigree, he challenged them over this issue.

I mean, he issued the call come out from amongst them to Corinthians six. And they decided they wanted to pursue the the policy of engagement within the denomination for the reasons that I've said, that the denomination officially itself is still reformed.

Officially, officially, officially. And yet there's a great book by a guy called Ian Murray.

I got a guy called Ian. Blame me. Reformed Baptist. No.

Excellent. Well, Ian Murray's evangelicalism divided is probably the best record of that debate, not least in the Church of England itself. And he demonstrates how possibly the evangelicals failed in that attempt.

But there they are now. And they're taking more of a stand. There's what we call the Anglican mission in England and the Anglican mission in England. And they're taking a stand over issues. And we've yet to see the the worst scrum that there may be as it gets worse.

I think the problems will come. No one over here knows what a scrum is.

OK. Mosh pit. OK.

OK. All right. That only communicated to people under 30. So you've now fight. Thank you very much. All right. A bit of a some fisticuffs, some fisticuffs.

That's right. Probably the the the line in the sand in England, as it will be for us in Australia as well, where I'm ministering will be when the national church legislates for something that is blatantly immoral.

That is why, of course, evangelicals have been prepared to watch women ordained as priests. And they were prepared to accept with certain caveats women as bishops. But they will hold the line on sexual immorality because on the first the scripture.

I think you and I think it's pretty clear what the role of women in the church should be and all the many wonderful things that women can do. And many places they can teach, of course, but just not in the in the mixed congregation.

But the scriptures never say, if you don't get that right, people go to hell. But on the areas of human sexuality, the scriptures are really, really clear. This is what you used to be. But now and people who pursue it end up end up in damnation.

So when the church then legislates that, that you will find there'll be there'll be a real stink. But other places are going strong. So where I am in Sydney, I mean, it's it's great. It's incredible as an Anglican.

Let me say as an Anglican to look around and know that pretty much everywhere you send someone, they'll go to a great reform church.

Yeah, I mean, I've I've mentioned many times the honor that has been mine to get a chance to lecture a couple of times at more college and things like that. And it's but it's it's for most folks outside of that area.

And I was at an Anglican church up in Anchorage and they were struggling so much with what was going on there. And this was a number of years ago. So I think there's be a whole lot more options for them now than there was even at that time.

Certainly. So I know that they're out there, but what we hear in the news, what we read in the reports and stuff like that is just you're just like, wow.

The media like the media, like the like the conflict stories. And, you know, I mean, you know, this ministry anyway, it's it's just the faithful people getting on with with the work that you never hear about.

And yet they are doing it. So one guy I'm going to visit, one of my fellow writers in Stanford, his name is Matt Kennedy. And he was in the diocese of central New York again, wanted to leave the diocese, ended up losing, ended up losing their building and his rectory and everything.

And that was the story in the media. What you don't hear now is that they're in a new building and they're doing far more ministry than they ever were before. The church has grown massively and because that doesn't make the news.

Turgeon fan changed the topic to what the stream still has hope like Anglicanism. There you go. There you go. Well, and then J and then JPC and channel said, and I don't know who JPC is. That's a new Nick to me.

Sydney Anglicans are so atypical for even Australia. What is what do you think?

Well, yeah, and it's in the sense that reformed Christians are atypical anywhere, I think. Yes, certainly even in Australia, they're atypical. But, you know, evangelicals all around Australia look to the Sydney Anglicans as a model, not as the great white hope or anything.

But, you know, as a model of where at least people are trying to have a go at getting it right. And, you know, that's a that's a group that's producing great material. So, for example, Matthias Media, give a shout out to them.

I write some stuff for one of their websites. Matthias Media were based in Sydney and now have a site in America. And they have some just some great material that's being produced from this from this this melting pot.

And yeah, so atypical, yes. But then Christians, we were talking about this earlier. Christians always are atypical.

Sydney Anglicans, where the portions are orthodox, but small.

Hey, well, yes. Yeah, we can talk about portion sizes if you want to. Picked up any weight so far? Yeah. Oh, yes. And it costs so much less. Yes. So I'm picking up more for less.

Yes. It's easier to get fat. It just doesn't feel good, though. No, it's easier to get fat here. Yeah.

It really is. And I was in the car. It doesn't. Oh, my word. That's right. That's right.

You got to get out and run around the car about 20 times each stop. Well, my car's big enough. You'd be quite winded by the time you get around that thing. I would. There's no two ways about it. I would be.

Well, is there is there anything else you'd like to tell us about about, you know, try to convince us? Because I think we still have a few skeptics in the audience, possibly, that that's your Anglicanism.

Yeah. Well, I want to say Anglicanism is probably the first major denomination to to go wholeheartedly with the Reformation. And it had the advantage of being a second generation movement. So the Anglicans in the Church of England, good men in Church of England, watched what happened on the continent with Luther and with others and waited patiently till Henry VIII died.