The Assyrian Encyclopedia Sam Shamoun

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white and good afternoon.

Post-Debate Reports and Sam Shamoun in Studio

Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday. Afternoon. Some more post debate reports today, and I am joined in studio live the round mound of sound. The Assyrian encyclopedia. Sam Shamoon is sitting right next to me.

I barely even got my stuff up for the program here because we were wandering around my library and Rich. We need to Pat Sam down when he leaves to make sure that. Especially some of my rather expensive Brill Islamic volumes are still where they need to be when when he leaves.

I'm a little bit worried about that. So Sam, thanks for being here. Well, thank you for inviting me and causing me to envy.

Well, I've always said if you'd show up you'd be envious but that's okay. You're out here in Phoenix visiting family. I think yeah, I have family here friends relatives.

But one of the main reasons I flew in is because of the debate because it took place on my birthday.

Well, and I didn't even know that I would have brought you something. Maybe brought you a book that you didn't have or something, but I didn't know. It was your birthday.

So, I'm sorry couldn't ask for a better gift to see you and Brown.

Yes. Yes. So let's tell folks about what that is because no one has seen it yet. And in fact, I received an email a little while ago that dr Michael Brown was gonna be listening to the program at the beginning before we had to go to a meeting.

Hey Mike, if you want to call in and would like to join us feel free to do so if you like to Skype in. Do we have Skype up? We have Skype up at dividing dot line dividing dot line is the address. So Dr. Brown if you're if you're not on the road or something like that.

Feel free to because people people actually listen this on the road now. This is that is what's so weird and I know how it works. I have a I have a droid incredible and I can listen to stuff while I'm it's just so odd.

That is now a part of our capability. But the debate took place on Tuesday evening and it took place really nice studios. Of the Jewish voice broadcast I have been told That those that'll be two episodes.

They'll divide into two episodes and that those will air in early November. So if My hope is obviously even after It airs that we will be able to get hold of DVDs of it because I would assume that they'll make DVDs available.

Beautiful facilities. Obviously, you can't have a huge studio audience, but they had we had a we had a good crowd there. We had a good crowd there and even despite how hot it is. I mean, it's still an oven here in Phoenix for you being in a Syrian you all don't care about things like that, but We're still talking 106 107 degrees out here right now.

Well, the rest of you are already starting to button up and wear your jackets things like but anyways We got we got started around 6 o 'clock went from 6 to a little bit after 930 I think it was I got home right around 10, which man outside is.

It's awful. Nice to do debates in Phoenix get home get to sleep in your own bed. I think it's about the We did two debates in Phoenix back in December of 1990. One at Northwest Christian Northwest Community Church with Jerry Matatick.

Scott Hahn was in the audience and then the next night at the city city the Lord Catholic community out near ASU and Scott Hahn Moderated that one and that's that's where Scott Hahn did his meltdown thing.

That was very interesting. You've never heard my story about the sky. I'd like to hear it. Really? Remind me of that because that's a that's a fascinating story, but those were December 90s. That was within three months of the the first debates that I did.

So anyway, I Teamed up with dr. Michael Brown the very Michael Brown that was on this program only a number of months ago. He and I debating The subject of reformed theology and he is a good Armenian a good I should call him a synergist primarily.

And he gave his reasons and we we went at it and went at it fairly strongly. But in a I think a way that demonstrated to people that you can debate that subject without ripping each other's lips off and so when I was when I was called and Was invited by Jewish voice to do this.

I looked at the schedule and I realized oh my goodness. That's two days. That's only that's only two days after I get back from debating Robertson Janice twice in Santa Fe. That's not the wisest thing to do.

Given given the range of topics. I mean your preparation time is almost is almost non-existent but as Sam knows in fact, I Don't think you are the one that mentioned this but you are obviously involved in my getting involved with Shabir Ali.

I first heard it was the first time you had heard of Anthony buzzard was when he debated. Yes early yeah, same with me and I remember coming on the dividing line shortly after that and addressing his psalm 110 argument because it just it just seems so Bogus to me and it seems even more bogus to me now.

But did you like his reaction when I pulled up my iPad? Yeah, and I put Now Sam as everybody knows Sam was in the studio audience and it was pretty much you were pretty much straight across me even though I couldn't see you most time because you're behind the camera.

So everyone's why I lean over so I could I could see your gleaming head back there in the back back row but but I I put one of the Qumran cave scrolls I have in my accordance software. The high quality and again, thanks to whoever made that possible for me to get that I have very high quality pictures of the Isaiah scroll and I looked up a specific use of Adonai in Isaiah so I made sure it was right there I could point to it and then I put it on my iPad and I turned it sideways and it blew it up to its Full size I could hold that out to him and say there's Adonai.

But there's no vowel pointing here. So there would be absolutely no difference between this and between Adonai and Adonai. That's a later commentary that is put in and that he even commented after the debate.

He said I'm gonna have to I want to look at that thing you had there so it was it was really neat to have that that that stuff there, but Michael Brown sat next obviously Mike around. I sat on one side of this I don't know.

What shape was that table almost sort of triangular but but sort of cut off the top? Jonathan Burness the the head of Jewish voice did the moderating did a very good job. And then we had sir, Anthony buzzard From the Atlanta Bible College top of 24 years and then we had Joseph.

Good. Had you ever heard of Joseph good before. Never?

I actually thought he was a Jewish believer, but it turned out he's a Gentile. Yes. He is fascinated with Judaism. Yes.

Yes, and he had been in the Messianic movement stuff and then went off into denying the the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity and. So they sat directly across from us and it was a three-part debate.

The first part was the longest. We took a break right afterwards. We had two minute opening statements each. I went last then. We had questions. That Jonathan would ask to each side the side that was asked the question would have two minutes.

The other side would have 90 seconds than 90 seconds and 90 seconds. Exactly now. There was there's no question about the fact that Michael and I had one clear and distinct advantage. Michael does a daily radio program.

He may be going on an even larger audience in the future, which a larger Radio network. I'm not sure. But he does when you if you if you heard when I was on his program. He has a lot of breaks. He has network breaks because he's on more than one radio station.

We have network breaks. You have to get done at a certain time. Those are called hard breaks. I've done radio for years. We don't have that problem the dividing line just makes it a whole lot easier to do, but I've done a lot of radio.

I've done television like that so he and I have a lot of experience that neither of our opponents did and So the idea of How long two minutes is how to prioritize what you need to say? Which is the which to me is the most exhausting thing in a debate is You're never gonna get to everything your opponent says because it it it's you can state error.

Far faster than you can refute error now. You've seen this and on being on a BN and stuff like that. When you've got a call or something like that, you have to prioritize what you're gonna be addressing and people will disagree With the decisions you make but they're not sitting in your shoes.

You know looking at the camera or anything like that. So the first section I thought really laid out the issues very very clearly. Then we took a break and the second section was Questions that you have for each other right.

I remember that I thought the first section we asked those the second section was I think From Jonathan, I think I think that Jonathan asked no, no, it was the audience.

That was the third section. Section was audience question was questions that you guys had prepared for each other from what I recall. Yeah, I guess because in the first section. You had opening statements and then I don't know who was asking you questions.

No, I think those questions actually we had come up with those those questions, right? And then I think Jonathan and the staff came up with the question. That's right the second part and then the audience is always question and you got to ask one of the audience.

Yeah. What was your audience question do you remember. Because because because I watched you. You didn't even look down at your card when you gave the question. You saw that. I saw that. So you obviously had it pretty much memorized.

What was your audience question pastor?

Joseph brought this up and Unitarians bring this up all the time and you know ad nauseam ad infinitum the concept of agency shall. In response to the case you're making for the deity of Christ, which was mentioned with Shelly Shall have basically is the Hebrew word from Shalak to them.

It's a apostle right? It would be in Greek with Apostles, but Their their whole argument was and by the way, I have to say although obviously I'm biased. I'm a Trinitarian. It was a landslide victory.

These guys didn't know what hit them. In fact at the end of debate. I really felt sorry for them. And I'm being honest. I'm not saying this like oh, yeah, cuz I wanted my guys to win. Obviously you had the truth on your side by the grace of God, but boy they took a beating.

But but we I don't think we were mean no you guys were fantastic. In fact, they were fantastic as well. They were very respectful and cordial very respectful debate. There was respect on all sides. But you guys were very passionate and you just hammered your points and refuted everything.

They had to say and they really didn't have any response apart from saying Anthony buzzer kept harping. Well, there's only one Yahweh one Yahweh and seven thousand singular pronouns, right? And then Pastor Joseph kept saying well the reason why Jesus could be called God and Worshipped is because he's God's supreme agent right invested with the authority of Yahweh and therefore can be Worshipped in a relative sense and my question basically was this The Apostles are also God's agents.

Weren't they Jesus's agents? He receives he receives me. But that didn't give him the right to go around saying that they were Jesus Christ, right Peter can come up say hey I'm Jesus Christ worship me.

So, how does that account for the fact that Jesus is called God is Worshipped as God and he accepts it. I mean no agent can do that can they. And so I didn't I really didn't understand as our response his response.

Really wandered around and it seemed like at the very end. He tried to get back to the question a little bit. But it did not seem like he really responded to what you were saying. Other than to go back to the second Kings passage and say well, you know The the worship of the people and so like that and we we had already dealt with this.

Yeah, but you know by going to the Texas saying look look at these all these texts. Is this a representative or are people saying about Jesus the Hebrews one text? Did you notice however? And I hope everyone who's listening and if you'd like to like to call in if you've got some questions for the Assyrian Encyclopedia and Myself 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

Dividing that line is the is the Skype address 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. You've seen Sam on a BN numerous times. In fact, Sam and I were just talking about the fact that we both called in on the discussion of the Quran burning Situation just was that week before last there was a September the 8th, I believe.

Okay. All right, so it wasn't very long ago. As a week ago and we both called it on that. So you've seen Sam. The last time that I was on a BN Sam was on with me. I have learned so much from Sam and I hope Sam's learned a little something from me.

So we've demonstrated the the fact that two very different kinds of people can be united in the bonds of Christ and in the ministry and and I've I know that the Shabir Ali debate of Biola never would have gone the way that it did had it not been for Sam Assistance in my in my preparation things like that and for those of you who are thankful that we are addressing Islam and for those of you who are not.

Some some to the positive and some to the negative but. Did you notice we're sitting here talking? I hope you're finding interesting to listen to two apologists discussing a recent debate. Did you notice and and Michael and I were talking about this in email?

You listened to. We are having a oh we are having a break today. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I'll try to keep my my eyes on that. But if I skip it, you know, it's like. We're so professional here that I talk with rich, you know, but hey rush does it so I can I can do it, too.

You you heard I know you heard my Discussion with Sir, Anthony buzzard on the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley because I remember I got some emails from you.

I was trying to hear it today again. Okay, right and.

Hebrews 1 and Psalm 102: Christ Identified as Yahweh

We got into Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 and Psalm 102 and his very unique attempt to get around That passage that identifies Jesus Yahweh Basically by going to the Greek Septuagint and saying there's a change in address here and the creation and he did at least once say This I caught it.

I'm not sure if anybody else caught it in Stating when we are looking at Hebrews 1. He was saying that Jesus's creative work is The second creation. It's all redemptive. It has nothing to do with with Genesis 1 1 etc, etc, which I Don't know has some echoes of some other Aryans that have attempted to deny the deity of Christ, too.

But anyway He has a very complicated. He didn't even try to bring it up. And I don't know how many times both Michael and I referred to Hebrews chapter 1. I know I read it. Yeah. He did not even attempt to do it.

He didn't interact with it at all and Michael and I were both wondering Does he does he just realize? That that's that's impossible to try to even explain to an audience in a brief period of time. Because I've listened to his mp3 on it and it takes him forever to get around to explaining it maybe just feels like it's just too complicated to even try or Both he and I both Michael and I in correspondence with him or on the on the unbeliever program.

Just said look even Bruce doesn't take it the way that you're taking it. There's just no way to do that. And we're just sort of wondering has he has he given up on that? Yeah, I don't know but they just they let most of the Yahweh passages Just pass by with the well Sheliach representative.

But you can't do that in John 12 you can do in Hebrews 1. It's impossible. Exactly. I did talk to Sir Anthony after I heard that.

Loud voice, but wait, what are you doing? Oh Sam socking this or Anthony?

One thing he did say is that uh. He wished there was there was a much more time to deal with the issues. It was too brief. They didn't have that's television. Yeah, that's that's how it is. So then that's when I said, okay.

Well, why don't you debate dr. White at which I had actually talked to him about that in the green room before him.

So do you agree? Oh, yes. Oh glory to God. That's gonna be great. I'll fly out for that.

He actually gave me a name of a student if I was gonna if I was talking about like five or six years down the road. Cuz he's 70 some odd years old. But I said no we're talking about and I told him I said there is a large church in Atlanta That has already told Michael Brown that they will sponsor a debate between me and Michael on the doctrines of grace on Calvinism and You know, we had said on the radio programs, this is great.

But what we really need to do is a much fuller debate. And of course from my perspective We've got to start where I I believe Michael's position is the most vulnerable. And that's start at the beginning and that is does God have a sovereign decree that determines Events in time or not.

I think in my experience in listening to Our debates that was where I think his thinking as is not firmly solidified. And so I think that's where we start but then we can we can draw the subjects beyond that.

But the hopefully the same church would then likewise have a debate with sir, Anthony so it'd be Interesting to Michael and I against one another and then but then Michael would be on my side though. He wouldn't necessarily be involved in debate to myself and sir, Anthony.

So I don't know when that'll happen probably sometime next year you dr.

Right, you alluded to someone 10 in the beginning. Oh, yeah, just for in case maybe some of the people listening don't understand maybe you can briefly describe what is sir Anthony's position concerning someone 10 -1 and How the Dead Sea Scrolls and the evidence that you presented shuts that down.

Because you know, yeah, you know.

I I played some sections on on the DL. I know that in the past. I've I played his comments with Shabir Ali but Yahweh says to my lord So this is Naomi away la Adani in the the Masoretic Greek text Yahweh says to my lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

Which of course is quoted over and over in the New Testament in different contexts this the Psalm 110 is extremely important because it's also where you get the Melchizedek priesthood issues that Hebrews picks up on so it's it's extremely important in in the New Testament and I.

And I think he agreed with me when I when I asked him this I said it is it is my understanding sir Anthony that in every single presentation on your website. Whether he's talking about John 1 1 whether he's talking about Hebrews chapter 1 3 what's 1 who or 3 who's 1 what whatever?

And I've downloaded all of those and listened to them many times. It seems to me that in every single presentation. He brought up someone's. Yeah, that's and A couple days ago. I was writing and I was listening to his debate with Fred Sanders.

And he specifically made the statement. I didn't read it. I had it on my iPad. I should brought my iPad in here. But he had a specific statement where he said this Psalm Psalm 110 should govern our entire interpretation of the New Testament.

Okay, that's that tells you that's an overarching text in his understanding and He goes after the common Christian understanding and in fact that I guess there is a Note in the New American Standard. In Matthew 22, I believe when it this text is cited that gives as the reading I deny and his whole point is that in the Hebrew Masoretic text and Let's make sure everyone understands what the Hebrew Masoretic text is the Masoretes and there's a lot of people that are confused about this the Masoretes were not around the days of Jesus the Masoretes flourished about 900 years after the time of Christ and They inserted the vowel pointing into the text and and solidified the text because Hebrew at that time just as as the original the Quranic Arabic did not have vowel pointing in it originally and Once a text sort of Comes into use and there is a desire to standardize its pronunciation.

Then vowel pointing is added in now, you know that that is a controversial issue in regards to how that happened with the Quranic text. Both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic text and that means that they are Consonantal languages in the written form that is you don't you have vowel letters?

But you do not have specific vowel pointing Originally and that's why I showed the the Isaiah the Qumran scroll because very clearly it is a Non-pointed Hebrew text. This is not actually arguable and Sir Anthony has never argued.

He's never argued that the text was pointed at the time of Jesus. You may have noticed what he was trying to get me to say was that it's it's it's about is pointed wrongly. Yeah, and what I said was what I said was it is pointed as a commentary.

That was excellent and so long after the time of Christ these vowel points put him the the consonants for Adonai. Which in his understanding is Yahweh my lord the the deity over against Adonai, which is only used 195 times of human People of human persons never of deity his whole part his whole argument is it's Adonai.

It's not Adonai and therefore Jesus cannot possibly be God. Yeah. That is the Masoretic interpretation and I can guarantee you one thing we can prove by the second century that the Jews were already well aware of the Christian utilization of Psalm 110 and So all this bow pointing is is a commentary on the part of Jews Hundreds of years after time of Christ that we don't believe in the deity of Christ.

Well, that's not exactly an earth-shattering revelation but of course the vast majority. Let's sadly that the vast majority even of seminary graduates who skipped Hebrew or slept through Hebrew or as they did in some Situations.

I I know some seminaries that offer Hebrew in 13 days. And when you try to learn a language in 13 days, all you learn to do is hate it not to read it. I can assure you that The vast majority of evangelicals are just gonna be sitting there sucking their thumb.

When when sir, Anthony gives that presentation they have no way of checking that kind of thing out. But it is not a meaningful argument. And but then as you and I discussed even before I was on with sir, Anthony in in England.

Yeah, he made the argument and at the time I I didn't understand what his argument was on. Unbelievable. It was not clear when we were discussing it at that time on Justin Brarley's show and He didn't try to make the arguments I think because I shut it down before he could get to it on in during the debate but he did seem to indicate back in February in London that The Greek Septuagint makes a differentiation in its rendering of Adonai versus Adonai and and I did he say Tuesday night that Hakuri Asumu is never used of Adonai of Adonai.

I know that he was arguing that Adonai.

That the Greek bears witness to the fact that there's a distinction because Adonai when it's translated in the Septuagint is Kiryasmu whereas Adonai is simply Kiryas. That was his argument and in his published work.

That's what he defends, but that's not true. Exactly.

Psalm 35 23 and Psalm 16 to both indicate that that there would be no there's no indication the far on the part of the Septuagint that there is a recognition of the difference between Adonai and Adonai and.

Maybe it's because I brought that up and he didn't want to either try to respond to it or just wasn't aware of it. I'm not sure how he could not be aware of it. And one thing he did say he goes.

Oh, well, those are just rare exceptions in the debate when you brought up some 35 23 and 16 to which in the Septuagint. It's 34 23 and 15, right? It was all those are rare exceptions.

Except there's only a certain number of currencies words. What do you mean rare exceptions? In fact, what I love about Psalm 35 23 is it's hot. They asked Mukai hot Hakuri Asumu, which is this exact same language, but Reversed from what Thomas says my Lord and my God in John 20 28.

Yeah, and I was looking right at him because it was interesting you probably saw this in the first half of the debate. They want us as we were giving our opening statements and answering the questions to look at the cameras rather than at the other.

Then after the break, they wanted us looking at each other and that came up in the second half of the debate. So I was looking right at him when I was talking about Psalm 35 and and Psalm 16. And there was sort of a look in his eyes of where am I gonna go now?

You know, but it is interesting to hear him utilizing term. I wish I could remember. The exact. Maybe you'll remember the exact term he used when I brought up Hebrews 110 on unbelievable. It was he didn't say this weird text or this.

I Don't think he said queer text. Remember he is British. So the words wouldn't have the same meaning, you know. Necessarily, even though he's lived over here for many years, but you do you remember what was.

Well, I wasn't there. But was it peculiar? It might have been peculiar. Yeah, that might be it but he used a particular maybe that's where the sound came from. I don't know but he. He basically dismissed Psalm 110 is as an odd Hebrews 110 as an odd strange, you know type of thing.

And I'm sorry when it's smack dab in the middle of a rather clear argument. Where he himself did you notice. He admits that one of the two places Jesus called the author God is Hebrews 1 8. So how in the world could could 110 through 12 in reference to Yahweh be be unusual?

I I don't know but.

It was it was quite one of the arguments he brought up. Maybe. And you shut it down very well. He says well. Hebrews 1 2 Clearly denies the pre-human existence of Christ because he says that in previous times God spoke to the prophets various ways But in these last days he spoke through a son or through his son.

Therefore the son could not have existed prior To his conception. Mary's womb.

Ignoring what follows after but well, not only that but it just struck me as such a Massively strained reading of the text that it was. I wasn't trying to slam anybody. But the only and that's that's one of the problems.

Maybe you know, you're saying you're feeling sorry for him by the by the end of the time. But but when you make a really bad argument When you are corrected on that argument you it sounds like the people correcting you are being mean to you.

When that really isn't the case. I mean look at our educational system today, you know. When when some kid says 2 plus 2 equals 5 now our poor teachers are told to be very gentle in in in in not correcting.

But suggesting another answer man when we were in school I said now you idiot. And we all seem to survive it and you know all was well. But maybe that did have something to do with with why we're feeling feeling sorry for him.

But I was pretty impressed by how many times Michael Brown Who who is such a nice guy would just look across at these guys and say you just blew that. I'm absolutely disappointed that that was the most pathetic response.

But um boom bing, you know and you know I think because he's been on Jewish voice before and has a connection there, you know, I think he felt very free At that point, but I was I was sitting next to him going A 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 where we're talking about the debate that took place on Tuesday evening The Jewish voice broadcast Sam schmoons joining me live in studio.

No, he's not on Skype. I'm actually looking at him, but get your calls coming in. We're gonna take a break. We'll talk about Islam and other things right after this break. We're back. What is dr.

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Are we done with wow, that's the longest break I've ever had. I Was just complaining to rich over there. I said, okay. Are we just trying to play all of the commercials we haven't played for like two months?

It's not like anybody's paying for any of that stuff. So anyway, we have we have calls coming in. In fact, we have we have some very famous people calling in all at the same time. Which is which is rather interesting?

So 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 4 1. Skype. It's dividing dot-line in studio with me the Assyrian encyclopedia. We need to get you a nice big. No, I'm gonna do as I'm gonna get you a t-shirt.