Rosaria Butterfield Shows How Its Done, Stop Having Kids?, & Christian Persecution

Conversations That Matter

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00:09

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, on this Saturday before Easter Sunday or Resurrection Sunday, as some of you refer to it.

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And we're gonna get into some of the things that I often talk about. Actually, we're gonna continue something.

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This is gonna really be part two of an episode that I did two days ago on why conservatives lose and leadership problems in the

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Southern Baptist Convention and so forth. This is broader than the Southern Baptist Convention. But before we get to that,

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I want to read for you from, this is the 1662, well, it's a new revision, not revision, what is it?

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It's not a facsimile. It's the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, and they've just changed, they've edited a few things.

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So, I guess where it talks about the king, it talks about the country, and so it's applicable for Americans, that kind of thing.

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But it's pretty much the 1662 Anglican Book of Common Prayer, back when

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Anglicans weren't endorsing Drag Queen Story Hour and the like.

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And I want to read for you something from it. It's just a reminder about how people used to approach worship and what

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Christian language sounded like. This is from the

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Book of Common Prayer, page 133. It's a prayer on Easter.

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On actually, this is Easter evening. So, this is the day before Easter. And I wanted to do this because it is the day before Easter.

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And I've been thinking more about my own personal life and how

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I want to be more mindful of the liturgical calendar. I think it's slipping a little bit.

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I think we have Christmas, we have Easter, or Resurrection Sunday, we have, I don't know, what do we have other than that, really, that are major times when people recognize this is an important time to come to church.

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I don't even know if Christmas makes the list now, that if it falls on a Sunday, it seems like a lot of churches just cancel their services.

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So, anyway, I think it's purposeful that the social revolutionaries are trying to take over the calendar with things like Transgender Visibility Day and Pride Month, and even some of the racial stuff lately.

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I can't even keep track of all the Indigenous Persons Day and Juneteenth and all the rest. I can't keep track of all of it.

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It's all designed, the newer, innovative approaches to the calendar, to recognizing, giving federal holidays, that kind of thing, it's all designed to take over the calendar, to mark time by the significant things that the left, in this case, thinks are important to remember.

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So it's not just taking over the calendar, it's taking over memory. And traditions are very repeated.

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That's why they're traditions. They're cyclical. You know that when you start smelling, and where I live, leaves, because they start to kind of get moldy and they come off the trees, and there's this musty smell.

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When you start smelling that, you know, man, Thanksgiving is coming, right?

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You associate it. When I smell pumpkin spice, I think Thanksgiving is coming. There's a seasonal element to this.

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Same thing with Easter and Christmas and 4th of July. There's associations you have that help you to remember significant things.

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And the Book of Common Prayer, Anglican calendar, I think, are just great as far as giving you some things that are worth remembering.

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Here's the prayer for Easter evening. You ready? Grant, O Lord, that as we are baptized into the death of thy blessed

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Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ, so by continually mortifying our corrupt affections, we may be buried with him, and that through the grave and gate of death, we may pass to our joyful resurrection.

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For his merits, who died and was buried and rose again for us, thy Son, Jesus Christ, our

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Lord, Amen. And then there's a reading from the epistles and the gospel, which is typical, 1

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Peter 3 and Matthew 27. And that completes the liturgy for that day.

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And so if there was a service, I don't know that any Anglican churches are still doing Easter evening services, but I would imagine that at one time, there were services for Easter evening, in fact,

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I think there were services not just for Good Friday, but for Maundy Thursday, and I don't even know what other, that Holy Week, as they call it,

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I think there were more services even than that, perhaps. But regardless, this would be what was standardly read, these passages, and that prayer was offered up, and then you'd maybe have a homily or something, a short sermon.

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And so anyway, this is a great way, I know some of the people out there, some of you who listen, you like things like the

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Valley of Vision and old Puritan writings, and one of the reasons I bring this up is just to give you a resource that's a little different, that it may not be recommended to you as often, but yet it was extremely important in the formation of Christianity in the, not just Christianity, it was nationally, for Great Britain and in early

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American life in places like Virginia, it would have been standard, it would have been what everyone read, what everyone knew, people were issued, even in the military during certain times in Britain's history, not only a

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Bible, but a Book of Common Prayer. It was like the second thing that you would be given. And there's a lot of really good stuff in there.

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So I just recommend it to you, little different than some of the other things, the

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Puritan writings, perhaps, a little bit different of a tradition, and though the Puritans, I would say, come out of, to some extent,

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Anglicanism, don't tell them that, but just some really good, rich stuff in there. All right, let's get to some other things today.

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I want to continue the podcast that I started the other day, and my camera went out,

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I found out it was a battery issue, and so I wanted to continue that.

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And the podcast, I'm trying to remember the title of it, I think it had something to do with leadership, the lack of leadership in the

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Southern Baptist Convention, and I took a trip down memory lane, looked at some Trump tweets and so forth.

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I think it was called, here it is, The Leaderless SBC, Women Pastors and Why Conservatives, and it's cut off, but I think it's lose.

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I never really talked fully about why conservatives lose. I shortened the podcast a little bit just because of the camera issues, and I talked about why leaders, or why we lack leaders, and that contributes to losing, and I think that's 100 % true.

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But I want to make another point that I meant to make, and I just forgot, and that is that I read a book a few years ago called

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Practicing Affirmation. Practicing Affirmation.

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And actually, this is one of the books recommended to me from a professor at Southeastern, one of the good things that I was given,

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I think, although there may be some pitfalls. I know someone who read it was sharing with me that they thought there were pitfalls in this, but one of the things that I took away from the book is how terrible

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I am at giving compliments. I don't know. I definitely give compliments at times, but I think people realize that,

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I don't know what it is about me, but sometimes I'll think, oh, that looks nice, or that's a good job, and I don't say it.

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I don't know why, why don't I say it? And that book challenged me, go say it. I have to be really impressed to go tell someone how great what they did was, or some accomplishment.

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I don't know if that's a problem that is widespread in conservative circles or not, and it's not because I don't think people do great things.

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It's just, I don't know. So that book challenged me, especially before getting married, because that's so important in marriage, to affirm one another, to tell one another what you like about the other person, what you encourage them, and that's part of encouraging them, refreshing them towards a greater walk with Christ, greater success, greater striving, carry on.

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It gives them the fuel they need, in a way, not that you should be the only one doing that, but it definitely helps spur them on to righteousness.

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And one of the things the left does very well is they compliment one another.

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They encourage one another. They do it through a host of different mechanisms, the political left.

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They have a number of organizations that give out awards to people who accomplish things.

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Their activists get awards. They offer positions of authority, of recognition to those who sacrifice for the cause.

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They tend to defend the people on their side, even those radical voices who sacrifice for their cause.

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And the right, politically, doesn't have it, not much. There aren't a lot of accolades you get.

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Let me give you an example on the Southern Baptist Convention level. Can I just give you a quick example, real quick?

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Bobby Lopez, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, fired, and based on the recordings that he released, it was related to a disagreement with the

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ERLC over homosexual orientation, and him sharing his testimony of how

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God changed him from a homosexual man to a heterosexual man.

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And that wasn't all of his testimony, but that was part of it. That caused problems.

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He was fired, and where was his soft place to land? Now, he's not the only one.

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Russell Fuller is the same story. Where was Russell Fuller's soft place to land? Russell Fuller formed his own theology classroom.

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You can go online, find Russell Fuller's website. He'll teach you seminary -level classes, and he has others teaching him.

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He's doing well for himself because the Lord's blessed him. I'm not saying he's rich, but he found something to do and to be paid for, and he's providing a service for the church, and I think it's great.

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But don't you think other seminaries or universities or places would have been interested in him?

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No, they weren't. They wouldn't touch him with a 10 -foot pole. Same with Bobby Lopez. There was no reward for taking a stand on conservative things.

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Both of them took stands, and there was no reward for them, not institutionally. Bobby Lopez went to Yale.

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I think it was Yale. Hope it wasn't Harvard. I'm pretty sure it was Yale. And Ivy League school, right?

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And now, what is he doing? I think he's teaching at a high school, if I'm not mistaken, and he's working on, similar to Russell Fuller, starting a classical

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Christian school, if he can. But would he be in that position?

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Would Russell Fuller be in that position if they were on the left? I think the answer is no.

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I think we all know the answer is no. They would be rewarded. They would be given accolades.

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They would be offered. I mean, look what happened with Matt Hall, okay? Again, at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where Russell Fuller was fired from.

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He wasn't fired. He left the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and took a job at another prominent

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Christian university in California. And you had people like Sean McDowell tweeting out that it was great, it was a great win for Biola, that Matt Hall's there, even though Matt Hall was thoroughly exposed for endorsing and promoting aspects of critical race theory, very key aspects.

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There's no question about it. And it doesn't matter how many nerds, because a lot of them aren't nerdy, will tell you, no, it's not technically critical race theory that he endorsed or something.

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It is obviously, I've been over this a million times, but it was obviously key elements of critical race theory.

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It's the same play that a lot of progressives in the 1970s did when they were like, well, we're not new left radicals, we're not socialists, we're not critical theorists, we're just Christians.

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We're Bible -believing Christians. And the Bible endorses, hey, guess what? Socialism, liberation theology. It endorses these things, but we don't stand on the foundation of atheism.

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That's what Matt Hall did. I'm not an atheist, so I disagree with critical race theory. I just believe all of its conclusions, just about.

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He found a soft place to land very easily. Now, these are just little examples that are just coming to the top of my head as I'm talking, but I'm telling you that there's hundreds of little exam, even smaller examples that I know about.

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I'm sure because especially when cancel culture first started being a term,

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I was getting emails, sometimes multiple emails a day of people who were either afraid to say what they knew to be true in their institutions or were being punished because they said something.

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These things ought not to be. Now, it's a complex issue. Conservatives don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the institutional power, maybe they don't have the ability to offer a comparable job to someone like a

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Bobby Lopez or a Russell Fuller, maybe not, but they can hold up those people in high regard.

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They can compliment them, they can platform them to some extent. There's a lot of things that can be done that aren't being done.

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Scripture is filled with examples of encouragement. Get that book, Practicing Affirmation, you'll see what

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I'm talking about. I think of even 1 Thessalonians chapter five, but we ask you brothers to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the

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Lord and give you instruction. In love, hold them in highest regard because of their work, live in peace with one another. Hold them in highest regard, respect, encouragement.

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One of the things that I noticed early on in my short

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Southern Baptist life that I had, Southeastern and being a member for one semester at a

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Southern Baptist church, one of the things I noticed immediately, you get on social media, Twitter in particular, but Facebook too, at that time, this was like 20, trying to think now, 2014 to 2017.

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And what I found was a lot of the guys, even in the institution that I was at,

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Southeastern, who liked each other, hung out together, were constantly complimenting each other online.

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And then they'd compliment someone in the denomination at another school or someone in evangelicalism who might be part of the same press, publish books at the same place.

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They would throw out compliments. There was a constant compliment. And I just thought it was kind of weird.

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I remember thinking that, this is kind of weird. I never saw this much complimenting. And sometimes it's for nothing.

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Sometimes it's someone who's, they haven't done anything that significant and they're getting praised for their courageous leadership, their courageous stand.

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I learned, since then, this was the way that Southern Baptist signaled who was favorable and who wasn't, who was getting positions of authority, who was the model to follow, who, right?

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This is how the elites, this is how people like Al Mohler, Mohler did this quite a bit. Danny Akin did this quite a bit.

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And they probably learned from Mohler because a lot of them worked under him, how to do it. This is how you signal to everyone else, follow that guy, that guy's doing the right thing.

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He'll be rewarded for it. It doesn't happen on the conservative side.

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And I will admit to some extent, maybe I'm part of that or have been part of that. I'd like to think that I have, and I'd like to think when someone really does take a courageous stand, that this podcast is one of the places you can come to find out about it.

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That's why we featured Bobby Lopez. That's why we featured Russell Fuller. That's why

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I've said positive things about Scott Orwick at the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and his courage. It's why that I've complimented

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John Cooper. I mean, he's in a industry where, let's just say most of the people in the

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Christian music industry probably don't share his views on social justice. It probably costs him.

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I couldn't imagine it not costing him. And yet he does it anyway. And you've heard me mention

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Bodie Bauckham quite a few times and his courage. He was one of the darlings of the

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Gospel Coalition. He gave that all up. Now he's got a platform that could trounce the Gospel Coalition at this point, probably.

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He wasn't always that way. And it hurts when you have friendships going back. You're not getting invited to the

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T4G or the Desiring God or whatever other conferences you would have been at. Um, there could be more, we could talk about more, but Juan Riesco, Paint the

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Wall Black. It's one of the reasons I decided to make that documentary. Juan wasn't getting platformed anywhere.

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I think one conservative Christian news outlet, I think it was, can't even remember the name of it, small outlet did a feature on him.

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That was it. But he didn't get any platforming really because of that.

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Since the documentary, there's been a few people who said complimentary things online, but I was shocked to be quite honest with you.

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I don't wanna give all the behind the scenes here, but I was shocked at the reluctance of evangelical institutions to have

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Juan come speak. I'm like, this is the guy you should be platforming. He has stared down the face of cancel culture with a smile and shared the gospel and cared about those people.

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This is the template you want. He should be getting an award or something, right? He had the number one business in all of Chicago on Yelp for food and gone in a few days because of a

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Christian stand he took. How in the world can he not be platformed? Well, he didn't sacrifice, if he was a brave person who sacrificed to fight against racism or something in the minds of elites, he would be probably rewarded.

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But because he was on the wrong side of BLM, he isn't. That's just how it works.

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Observe, I'm throwing out all these examples, but observe, you know this to be true, undeniable.

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So this podcast, I'm hoping is one of the places you can go to hear about some of these inspiring stories.

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And I wanna keep that going. It's one of the things I wanna see happen with TruthScript if it grows is platforming and giving honor to people who deserve honor.

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And that makes an example, that gives you a role model, that helps inspire people to shoot for something higher.

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Without that, conservatives lose. I'm talking about political conservatives, theological conservatives, they lose.

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You need a mechanism to do that. We can't just be ripping each other down all the time.

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And I realize for some of us, myself included, that each other might be a small group, right?

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We have to be able to figure out what are primary and secondary concerns and then act accordingly.

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There are certain things you're gonna disagree with some other people on, but when they do something right, compliment it. I haven't agreed with everything that I've seen from certain evangelical leaders, but when they do something right, man,

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I go to bat for them. I try to at least, that's my goal, right? One example off the top of my head,

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Tom Askell. He went on a few of his podcasts and I was critical of it on this podcast.

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He complimented Bart Barber and said it was a good thing that Bart Barber was the president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. I don't remember the exact words he used, but he complimented Bart Barber and said that years ago that he thought

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Bart Barber should run for the president. And I'm just thinking like, how can you say that, right?

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I was critical of what he said, but guess what? Tom Askell in putting out, by what standard, in standing against Resolution 9 in 2019, guy deserves a lot of respect.

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Unfortunately, he did not, from SBC elites, probably people he thinks were, thought were his friends before, he didn't get that at all.

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And anyway, all that to say, we have to be mindful of the fact that people need encouragement.

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And I'm about to share with you a story of someone that I just, I think, this is a great story.

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I just wanna read for you an article. And my encouragement to you is that you will encourage her.

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You will encourage Rosaria Butterfield. Before I share with you the article though, sponsor for this podcast, and an encouragement to all of you men out there, the

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It looks like there's five to choose from starter boxes. And then there's refill boxes. So, pick one of the starter boxes, and just sample the products that they have.

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CONVOS, that's CONVOS, and you will get a discount on your order. All right, well, let's now talk about Rosaria Butterfield, and what she did, which to me is incredible.

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It should be championed. It should be promoted.

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It should be complimented. This is the template, I think, that so many evangelicals, including the ones that I talked about in the episode a few days ago, who got some things wrong, they need to follow this example.

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This is what happens when you get something wrong. It's from Reformation 21. It says, the title is, why

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I no longer use transgender pronouns, and why you shouldn't either. A civil war erupted within broad evangelicalism, and the idol of LGBTQ plus is dividing the house.

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Wow, wow. This issue is personal. Politics, political, and spiritual for me.

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In 1998, I became one of the first crop of so -called tenured radicals in American universities, proudly touting my lesbian street cred.

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In 1999, Christ called me to repentance and belief, and I became a despised defector of the

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LGBTQ plus movement. But progressive sanctification came slowly, and I have failed many times during these past decades.

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After I have learned lessons, I have earnestly tried to course correct, and that's the problem. My use of transgender pronouns was not a mistake, it was sin.

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Now, I'm gonna remind everyone, we already talked about the fact that Rosaria Butterfield issued a document, a statement, months ago, retracting her previous position on conversion therapy.

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And now, she's doing the same thing on preferred pronouns. My use of transgender pronouns was not a mistake, it was sin.

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Public sin requires public repentance, not course correction, amen. I have publicly sinned on the issue of transgender pronouns, which

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I have carelessly used in books and articles. I publicly sinned by advocating for the use of transgender pronouns in interviews and public

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Q &As. Why did I do this? I have a bunch of lame and backside covering excuses.

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Here are a few. It was a carryover from my gay activist days. I wanted to meet everyone where they were, and do nothing to provoke insult.

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When the Supreme Court decided in favor of gay marriage, the danger of my position started to come into focus.

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The codification of gay marriage and LGBTQ plus civil rights launched a collision course between LGBTQ plus and the

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Christian faith. The LGBTQ plus movements understanding of itself as ontological and morally good conflicts with the biblical account in Genesis one, which is it?

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Which side was I on? Is LGBTQ plus a normal option in the ever expanding menu of sexual orientation and gender identity, needing a little

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Jesus to aid human flourishing, or does LGBTQ plus come from Satan as a reflection of the world, the flesh and the devil?

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Is it part of God's creation design or rebellion against the creation ordinance?

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It's one of the other, because the Christian faith is inherently binary, not non -binary.

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And getting this wrong is not a matter of personal liberty. How is using transgender pronouns sinful, you might ask.

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Using transgender pronouns is a sin against the ninth commandment and encourages people to sin against the 10th commandment.

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Using transgender pronouns is a sin against the creation ordinance. Using transgender pronouns is a sin against image bearing.

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Using transgender pronouns discourages a believer's progressive sanctification and falsifies the gospel.

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Using transgender pronouns cheapens redemption and it tramples on the blood of Christ. Using transgender pronouns fails to love my neighbor as myself.

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Using transgender pronouns fails to offer genuine Christian hospitality and instead yields to the definition of hospitality, to liberal communitarianism, identity politics and human flourishing.

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Using transgender pronouns isn't a sin because the times have changed. And therefore, using transgender pronouns isn't sinful today, but a morally acceptable option in 2012.

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Sin is sin. The Bible defines this as sin. Sin does not lose its evil because of our good intentions or the personal sensibilities of others.

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Changing cultural forces can bring sin into fresh light as the Supreme Court's Obergefell decision did for me.

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But a renewed focus is no excuse for sin and no dodge for repentance for the real

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Christian. I repent. Now, let me just stop there for a moment and say this.

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I don't know if those who listen to this podcast remember when Jared Moore was on my podcast and he started throwing out all these names, some of them

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I was even surprised about, that had endorsed on some level, his term was concupiscence, homosexual concupiscence.

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I still, by the way, I'm planning on following up on that again. I have stuff on my hard drive and I just haven't been able to get to it.

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But anyway, some of the clips that Jared Moore shared with everyone were from years ago, 2011 or 2014 or 26, 17 or whatever.

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They were from years ago. And I immediately found that among some, there's this understanding that, well, it was acceptable back then.

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Or you can understand at that time, people saying things like, homosexual desires are not sinful or we have homosexuals in good standing at our church or it's not a sin to be a homosexual just to act on it or any of these things that were being said by, like everyone, it seemed, that these weren't, it wasn't a problem back then.

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It's a problem now apparently because we see how far the LGBTQ plus movement has pushed. But back then, it wasn't that big of a deal or at least we know what they meant.

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They didn't really mean they endorsed the LGBTQ agenda, which of course they didn't endorse it wholesale. Jared Moore's point was that they let a foot in the door, that there was a slight crack open on the door.

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And I've thought about this. Since then, and I've thought, it would be so simple.

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I know for me, it's simple. Like, cause I know I make mistakes every day. To just say,

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I made a public mistake even. I made a public mistake. I sinned.

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I said something that wasn't correct. And yeah, I phrased it wrong. Maybe I didn't even mean it, but you know what?

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I said it and it was wrong and it misled people and it did damage. I apologize.

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I repent. I'm so sorry for anyone that would have followed my advice and followed my thinking on that.

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Please forgive me. Or just, I want to for the record state that I don't agree with what

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I previously said and this is what I agree with now, right? I don't believe that someone can be in good standing at a church as a homosexual or harbor homosexual desires and I don't agree with that.

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Or have a homosexual orientation, whatever. It would be so easy, but there's a reluctance to do this.

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I don't know why. I don't know why. And I'm hoping that with this article, Rosaria Butterfield is leading the way that people will listen to this.

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That people like even, I'm just gonna say one name, Kevin DeYoung. I hope he sees this and thinks, wow, if she can own up to her position on preferred pronouns,

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I can certainly own up to things I've said that are confusing on the sinfulness of homosexual orientation, quote unquote, and using that kind of language about it.

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I hope he can do that, right? And others who have done the same thing. It shouldn't be that hard, but it just seems like it is.

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It seems like it is. It's course correction, as Rosaria points out. It's not repentance. It's, well, we'll change our language then because people are onto us now or because we realized we were wrong or because the fight has changed to a different arena and that's not helpful anymore, whatever it is.

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I think you just have to own up to it. Psychologist Mark Yarhouse and author

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Preston Sprinkle summarize, actually, did I skip something? Yes. The broad evangelical church disagrees with how

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I paint this picture. Psychologist Mark Yarhouse and author Preston Sprinkle summarize the Christian case for transgender pronouns.

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They believe using transgender pronouns is respectful of someone's chosen identity. It's kind and courteous and necessary for continuing a relationship with a transgender person.

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I once sinfully said all these things too, but this position makes no sense, no Christian sense.

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Does any Christian believe crafting a relationship on falsehood will give the gospel a better hearing?

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And is that how people are converted? By meeting God on sins terms and hearing nice things about themselves?

34:35

Christian author and counselor, Laura Perry Smaltz offers a different perspective. In her past, she lived as a transgendered man and called herself

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Jake. Laura pumped testosterone, engaged in mutilating gender affirming surgeries and God saved, redeemed and transformed her into a beautiful trophy of His grace.

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She is recounting countless interviews in her book, Transgendered to Transformed, the opposite approach to Sprinkle and Yarhouse and the old

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Rosaria. For Laura, when the Lord enlivened her heart and in mind with the gospel, she returned to the church of her youth and her conservative

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Christian parents. Her church and parents had refused to use her preferred pronouns throughout all the years she lived in the false identity of transgenderism.

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Why did she return to them? Their refusal to lie compelled her trust. Today, Laura is among the most beautiful, godly and feminine women

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I know. Transgender pronouns are one of the Aikens in the camp of broad evangelicalism.

35:31

But it shouldn't be an Aiken in the camp of the confessionally reformed. Preston Sprinkle, Mark Yarhouse, David French, Reboy, Side B Christianity, and any parachurch ministry that elevates being winsome as the end game provide useful examples to defy.

35:48

They not, this is so gold here. I mean, she's going for the jugular.

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She's saying, I'm gonna call out the names here. Preston Sprinkle, Mark Yarhouse, David French, Reboy, Side B. She's saying, and these are solidly in the pro -LGBTQ pronouns camp.

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They nod in the direction of traditional values, but then swap biblical clarity for postmodern pluralism, thus burning to the ground any legitimate theological bridge to gospel grace.

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Transgenderism is satanic. We who once promoted pronoun hospitality lent false credibility to a wolfish theology that failed to protect the sheep, a wolfish theology.

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Instead, it eats them alive. Do you love your neighbor? Do you love your Lord? Do you believe that Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life?

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Does Jesus save us from our sins? Or do we delegate this task to the priests of our day, the therapists?

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Do you know the difference between making false friends, frenemies, and loving your enemies? Yes, Jesus was a friend of sinners, which means that by his precious blood, he ransoms all who repent, believe, and put their trust in him.

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He makes former enemies into friends through his blood. The blood of Christ does not create an ally with the sin it crushes on the cross, for that stands in opposition to gospel hope.

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The world, the flesh, and the devil are not Christ's friends. Transidentity and Jesus are not, man, she's using words that I don't even know how to pronounce, coterminous, coterminous,

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I think that's what it is. Transidentity and Jesus are not coterminous. It's one or the other.

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In other words, they can't be reconciled, they don't go together. Christians need to learn how to love their enemies, not pretend their enemies are their friends.

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Christians who use the moral lens of LGBTQ plus personhood are not merely a soft presence in the enemy camp.

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Their malleability makes them pudding in the enemy's hands. They make false converts to a counterfeit gospel that bends the knee to the fictional identity of LGBTQ plus.

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The wolfish theology seeds the moral language to the left by using transgender pronouns as a moral lens, respect, courtesy, hospitality.

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They reject the clarity of the word of God and replace it with garbage. By doing so, they have rejected the gospel truth that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

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Heidelberg question 30 puts it like this. For though they boast of him in words, yet indeed they deny

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Jesus as the only deliverer and savior. Heidelberg question 30 has an ominous report for the pronoun hospitality camp.

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We who have promoted this sin need to stand up and repent. I repent. I'll start, she says,

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I'll repent. May God forgive me. Would anyone like to join me? This is gold.

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And I saved the best for last. I saved this for the end of the week to encourage your hearts. This is someone,

38:46

I did at least one episode years ago on one of her books. The gospel comes with a house key.

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I don't know if she, I don't think she promotes the pronouns in that book. She promotes, I think though, knowing who the husband and wife were in a gay partnership, a lesbian partnership that you should teach your kids.

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I think it was something along those lines as I remember to know the difference between the two and to call them that. Anyway, I would say that's probably covered under this.

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She's retracting all that. She's saying no. And I was critical at the time. And it's not often, look,

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I'm not right all the time, okay? I'm a man. And I'm not trying to toot my own horn and say

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I knew and she didn't or someone else didn't. I make mistakes. But what

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I've noticed is when things are crystal clear, when everyone can see this is wrong, not everyone, but everyone, you know what

39:37

I'm talking about. People who have some discernment about this and see where things are going, and there were enough of us even in 2014, 15, 16, we could see where this was going.

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The people who were called out don't generally respond at all.

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And if they do respond, it's usually to mock or oppose those who would call them out.

40:01

Rosaria is one of the few cases I've seen of someone who had a platform in evangelicalism, writing for the

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Gospel Coalition, books, I mean, speaking engagements.

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She had a slice of that world and she forfeited it.

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I'm telling you right now, she's forfeiting it by doing this. And she's gonna get pressure because of this.

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In fact, she's already getting pressure. The PHC Queer Alumni, Patrick Henry College, she made a speech there.

40:32

And the Patrick Henry College, I thought they were a conservative college, but their queer alumni have a whole website, apparently.

40:41

And they are dedicated to opposing what Rosaria did there. I believe this is the website for that.

40:49

Now I'm wondering where I found it on this website, but I know it was on this website. Yeah, there it is. We are collecting alumni signatures in response to Rosaria Butterfield's March 17th

40:57

Faith and Reason Talk. The talk specifically targets queer people. You can read a PDF of the talk here, but we warn that it was brutal toward our community.

41:06

All right, you can guess the rest. This is Patrick Henry College, supposedly the

41:12

Harvard of homeschoolers. Rosaria gave a great speech there, and this is what she's met with.

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She's gonna get more of it. And most people are scared of that. They're afraid that they're gonna get cultural pressure and they're gonna also get the...

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And I have to say it this way. It's not just cultural pressure. I don't even know if that's the main thing. The cultural pressure inspires something else that's even more deeply concerning for people who really like their position and their power and their prestige.

41:44

What happens is when there's cultural pressure, you start looking around to your right and your left, and you realize, where are all my friends?

41:52

They're not around anymore. Oh my goodness, they've left me because they don't want that cultural pressure.

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It's the fear of being ostracized by your peers, by your friends.

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And let me tell you something, especially those in academic circles, they are totally in a world where the opinion of your peers means everything.

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That is what determines the job you're gonna have, the chair you're gonna chair, all kinds of things, where you're gonna live.

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I mean, a soft place to land if you do get fired. You need that opinion of your peers, your colleagues.

42:29

And you forfeit that when you start taking stands like this because they don't want to be broad brushed in the same brush that you're being broad brushed in.

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They don't wanna be connected or associated with you. I've seen this myself among quote -unquote conservatives, even in Southern Baptist and evangelical circles where, man, in private,

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I've said this before, I might get a message or encouragement publicly though from some of the same people, they wouldn't touch me with a 10 -foot pole.

42:54

They would run the other direction if there was an opportunity to take a picture with me. But they'd have no problem taking a picture with someone on the left, because there's no risk there.

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They're not gonna be ostracized for it. There's no pressure. But once you see with me or A .D.

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Robles or someone who's really taken a hard stand and called out names and that kind of thing, you know that that person's disliked by people you wanna be friends with.

43:19

I think that's a large thing, part of what drives this. And that means you give up the goodies.

43:25

You give up the rewards, the prestige, the accolades, all the things that Pharisees tend to like, really.

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So, and I'm being direct, I know, but that's just how I see it. So this is the pressure that she is getting.

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And I just think, well done. I just wanna say that. And please encourage her.

43:45

Send Rosaria messages, letters, whatever. Just encourage her. Say, thank you for taking, thank you for saying it.

43:52

Thank you. Hey, we have a conference coming up. We have an event.

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Would you come? Would you speak at the event? Not preach. I didn't say preach. Would you come speak at the event?

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How can we partner with you in some way? Can we encourage you in your writing? I don't know what that looks like, but we on the conservative side of this have gotta figure out a way to reward people when they take stands.

44:16

And she's taking a stand right now. Well, switching gears now, I wanna talk about this campaign,

44:21

Stop Having Kids. We're not gonna take that long. Someone sent it to me though, and I thought, I just gotta share this.

44:27

Stop Having Kids is a billboard campaign. Someone saw the billboard and sent it to me.

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And it says that. It says, Stop Having Kids. And the front of the website says, we want a future.

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We're creating biological children is no longer an expectation, a norm, or something most people casually do without putting substantial thought and investigation into.

44:45

I don't know what biological children is. Was it synthetic robot children? Like, I don't know.

44:51

Are those acceptable? Well, this particular campaign gives all the reasons you shouldn't have kids.

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It's selfish to have kids. Abortion is permissible. Look at all the things that you can do, like traveling if you don't have kids.

45:03

And I wanna just say this, as someone who doesn't have children yet, would like to have children.

45:09

Of my brothers, I was probably the one who talked about more than anyone else the desire to have kids, and have a lot of them.

45:16

And I'm the one, well, now. My younger brother's not married yet, but I'm the one that has, in my marriage, we've had barriers to that.

45:26

And we're exploring those right now, which I appreciate people praying for. And so we're figuring all that out.

45:31

So I know in a very short period of time, that will be either corrected, or we'll adopt, or we'll do something.

45:38

But we will have kids, and I will have my schedule filled with things like soccer appointments, or doctor's appointments, watching the baby, whatever it is, right?

45:47

That's just normal life when you have kids. And when that happens, don't expect as many podcasts from me.

45:54

It may be different, right? But right now, I have so much flexibility. So I can see a blessing to not having children.

46:02

And I've seen that for years, that I would never have the books that I've written, the book I'm writing now, they wouldn't exist if I had kids, probably.

46:08

I would probably, you might not even know who I am, those who are listening to this podcast, because I'd probably be in a job somewhere, maybe pastoring somewhere, right?

46:17

I wouldn't have been able to put my life on pause to tackle this social justice issue.

46:25

So I see the blessing there. I see, I think, even the plan of God in his providence.

46:31

I enjoy the traveling. I enjoy some of these things. I'd trade that all to have children, but it doesn't mean that I don't see the blessing there, and I don't enjoy it, and that I'm not, in some ways, content with it.

46:42

That doesn't take away the fact, though, that there's a natural longing God has given. I think he's given it to every human. Even those who say they have the gift of singleness, like Paul, I think they're, because it's a general command and a design thing to all creation, to all of humanity, that is, to have kids, to be fruitful and multiply,

47:01

I think that's a natural desire everyone should have. And it's a capacity that everyone should have.

47:07

In a perfect world, everyone would have that capacity. So what this is, as you can see, even in the front of this, is it's an attack on humanity.

47:19

It says we should support deprived humans and other animals who already exist. So animals and humans are in the same category to these people.

47:27

This is the worldview that we are up against. And the only reason

47:33

I bring up my perspective on this is just to share that, look, if anyone understands the blessings that could be associated with not having kids,

47:41

I guess, it would be me, because I've been able to do a lot of things, even things I've wanted to do, like physical challenges and hobbies.

47:49

There's things that I can do that I wouldn't be able to do if I had kids. So I see the blessing and I am still saying this is nuts and it'd be better to have kids.

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And it would be preferable to do what God, I think, made us to do.

48:05

And I have a word for those, by the way. I just want to say this, because this might be hard for some. I'm sensitive to that too,

48:10

I suppose, just because of the position I'm in. I know that it's hard for people, especially if you're in your 30s and you haven't even gotten married yet and you want to have kids.

48:21

And my encouragement is just that that's not a wrong desire to have.

48:27

And don't stuff it and don't listen to what a lot of evangelical outlets have done.

48:35

I didn't have everything queued up, but the Gospel Coalition has put out a number of materials on why we idolize marriage and family and we should celebrate singleness and make single people feel comfortable.

48:48

I say to that, that's ridiculous. I say to that, look, and as someone who would like to have kids but doesn't have them,

48:56

I think celebrate kids publicly, right? Rejoice with those who rejoice. Why in the world would you, because someone might be left out, they may not be married yet, we can't celebrate marriage and family.

49:09

Or that's idolatry to celebrate it or something. It's ridiculous. That's what God made. And if you haven't experienced that yet and you desire to experience it, pray about it, you probably already are, but continue to pray about it and don't, and really strive.

49:26

Look, use the resources available to you. Don't be timid and afraid of getting hurt.

49:31

Go out there, you might have to date or court, however you work that out, a number of people before you get to the person that is the right fit as far as a godly individual.

49:44

But I'd say, don't buy into this whole, like I should be satisfied completely without having, without functioning in the way that God designed humans to function.

49:56

I mean, you could have a spiritual satisfaction, but that doesn't mean that you're satisfied in every single aspect of your life.

50:03

You'd be satisfied that Jesus has satisfied the wrath of God for you, and you're satisfied with that, and you know you have a place in heaven, but it's okay to want kids and to want a whole bunch of them because the scripture says to be fruitful and multiply.

50:17

They're arrows in your quiver. They teach you, they help you become more godly.

50:24

Hopefully. They might exacerbate you, but they try your patience, but it's a teaching tool.

50:29

And what's gonna happen if this kind of philosophy gets picked up more and more and more, and it is also kind of, let's just say given cover by even some elements of the church who don't wanna celebrate

50:43

Mother's Day and things like that anymore. I remember that a few years ago. It'll offend all the moms who don't have kids, or women who aren't married or something.

50:53

When you buy into all of that, you're buying into death. You're buying into a culture of death. You may not even realize you're doing it.

50:59

You may think you're doing it for sensitive reasons, but when you stop the celebration of life that has been there, you're saying that it's not important.

51:08

You're downgrading it. You're uplifting sterilization. You're uplifting even androgyny sometimes,

51:15

I think, with this. It's all part of, I think, one soup that we're against. It's all the trans stuff.

51:22

All of that is in this attack on the created order. That's exactly what this is. It's an attack on the created order.

51:28

And I guarantee you what happens when you have a bunch of people who, and notice what

51:34

I'm saying. I'm not saying people who don't have kids, but people who are opposed to having kids. You have a bunch of people that are opposed to taking that responsibility.

51:42

You will have massive societal problems, massive. You have a bunch of children running around and fully grown, but they're not adults.

51:51

I'm not saying having kids, Jesus didn't have kids, right? And he's the template for a man. So notice what I'm saying.

51:56

I'm not saying that having kids makes you a man. It doesn't at all. There's a lot of people that have kids that they are not manly, one bit.

52:04

Having kids doesn't do that. It can be one of the tools God uses to help you become that, but it doesn't in and of itself do that.

52:12

But not wanting kids, but opposing the idea of having kids, opposing the concept of getting pregnant and raising children, that is immature.

52:24

That is a sign that that person is selfish. And this website tries to make out that actually selfishness is those who have kids because they're wanting to copy themselves or something.

52:34

It's so ridiculous, but this is what we're up against, guys. This is the natural progression. Don't be surprised if this gets more mainstreamed.

52:43

Don't be surprised. Remember a few years ago, if you said transgender sports competitions were gonna be a thing, you would have said, what?

52:51

Don't be surprised if this becomes bigger than it is. All right, that's what we're up against. This is one article that I wanted to share with you from the

53:01

Daily Caller, just briefly. It's called, A Single Mother Files Lawsuit After State Allegedly Denies Adoption Due to Her Christian Beliefs.

53:10

Single mother of five filed a lawsuit against the Oregon Department of Human Services Monday for allegedly denying her adoption application due to her religious beliefs according to Alliance Defending Freedom.

53:20

And then it goes into the specifics of this. I'm not gonna get into the specifics of it.

53:26

I'll just say this. There's a 41 page lawsuit apparently here. I'll just say this about it.

53:32

This is persecution, guys. And I know this gets mocked by some in the more progressive evangelical world is we don't experience persecution.

53:41

Yeah, maybe not like those in Nigeria, but we're experiencing persecution. That is persecution, all right?

53:47

It just is. And it happens in subtle ways, smaller ways than in other places.

53:56

But when you are singled out because you're a Christian, you can't adopt, you can't, when

54:06

I'm sure, I mean, I don't even need to look it up because I'm sure it's true. I'm sure that the

54:12

LGBTQ people who want to adopt don't have a problem in the state of Oregon. I would imagine, that's probably not a thing.

54:19

But if you are someone that has Christian beliefs, then you have a problem.

54:27

And I'm not defending a single mother adopting. I don't know the circumstances of this. I don't know if she should be adopting.

54:33

But I know if the reasoning you're using to block her from adopting is because she's a

54:38

Christian, she has religious beliefs, then that is a form of persecution because it's not applied to other people.

54:47

It is a blatant attack on Christians. And it's related,

54:53

I guess, in this way to the last website I was showing you about stop having kids.

55:00

Christians are the ones that have typically had more children, celebrated children, wanted to produce material to help children,

55:12

Sunday school, orphanages, talking historically here. I mean, it's

55:18

Christians. And don't be surprised because that's an influential arena.

55:25

Don't be surprised if after the world takes education away and says, no, we're going to indoctrinate your children.

55:35

And they force in certain areas, they punish Christians for using corporal punishment.

55:43

And they more and more come into the arena of the family and tell the family what they ought to do and not do.

55:51

Don't be surprised if they start barring Christians from adoption. It's not a far stretch.

55:57

I think we're gonna be seeing more of this. So this is what we're up against. And I wanna show you this as a way of contrasting what we talked about earlier in this podcast.

56:07

We need people like Rosaria. We need people who are willing to call a spade a spade. And if we don't have people like that, you're expect more and more of this to be unopposed.

56:19

I'm thankful for Alliance Defending Freedom, by the way, that they're taking this case. All right, well, that's the podcast today.

56:25

I hope that everyone out there has a wonderful Easter Sunday tomorrow. And yeah,