Should Spanking Be a Last Resort?

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01:27

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your host, Harrison Kerrigan, Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age old question, Should spanking be a last resort?

01:41

Now Tim, this is a question we're bringing up. There's a big controversy a week, two weeks ago at this point, over spanking.

01:50

This feels like one of those topics that constantly comes in and out of online discourse, where you have one side who will make a statement about spanking, essentially saying,

02:03

Hey, you should be spanking your kids if you love them. Here's some Bible verses about it. And then you have another side who's coming along and saying, essentially,

02:13

I mean, I've had people tell me things like spanking is ungodly, God hates parents who spank, which is very interesting because these are the same people that tell you

02:22

God loves everyone, but then they'll also say God hates all the things that they don't like, right?

02:29

And so, you have this discourse going on, and there was an interesting response from a certain section of people who, you know,

02:41

I think they're kind of these people who recognize the Bible has a lot to say about spanking your children and actually present spanking as, you know, something between a morally good thing to a morally neutral thing, but then they just personally don't really like the idea of spanking your children very much.

03:07

And so, their response is just to say, well, yes, you know, you should be spanking your kids, but only as a last resort, you know, as the final line of defense, should you spank your kids?

03:23

And so, that's why we're bringing up this question, but Tim, you know, what is your sort of view of that, you know, of that suggestion?

03:32

I mean, is there any merit to that? You know, should we be very select and when we spank our children as a form of discipline, or is it just sort of the, nah, you should probably, you know, assuming your children are normal, especially when they're really young, you're just going to have to spank them a bunch.

03:53

Yeah. I mean, you should, you should basically try everything that you can possibly try to do so that you'd never have to spank your kid.

04:02

I mean, basically just try to negotiate with them, try to give them things, try the counting thing, you know, that one, that one seems to work.

04:09

Like if you just count, count to like four, um, because by the time you get to four, then they'll know you're serious.

04:19

And so then, like, so you should try that one too. And maybe you can just, yeah.

04:24

Yeah. Just make that a last resort. Cause it's kind of mean. Okay. Who are you and what have you done with the real

04:29

Tim? You don't think you should count?

04:36

Look, man, I mean, you don't think the counting works? Yeah. Most, let's be honest, man.

04:41

Most of these kids, when, especially when they're younger, they probably can't even count to begin with. And so, so suggesting, you know,

04:49

Oh, and, and here's the thing too, is, you know, some people would say, Hey, you can't, um, you know, the reason you resort, you reserve spanking as a last resort is because they're not going to understand what they're being spanked for, but the same children can sit down and have a conversation about what's right and what's wrong.

05:11

And they will understand that. And they certainly won't get distracted at any point or get confused by all the things you're saying, you know, especially when you have toddlers and stuff.

05:21

so, you know, there you go. They can understand the complex conversation about what's morally right and wrong, but they can't understand what they're getting a spanking for.

05:32

It's not supposed to make any sense, but, um, yeah, no, this is, yeah, obviously with spanking, there is a type of person that you're talking about who technically knows that it's in the

05:40

Bible. So they want to not be like a deranged liberal, so to speak. But then essentially what's happening is that their emotions are not lining up with these verses as if they're good, basically.

05:52

So they're in, they're in a situation where they don't understand the purpose of spanking. Their emotions are not tethered to the scriptures at that point.

06:02

So there's a kind of person who secretly thinks that, yeah, this is kind of crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah.

06:08

But I know they wish it was, they wish it wasn't in there, but they know that it is, they know it's in there, you know, but I don't really think it's good.

06:17

Mostly it's dangerous. So they view it just like a lot of the, you know, problem passages in the

06:23

Bible where they know that it's in there. They know that they can't technically disagree with it because they're going to lose influence or whatever with certain kinds of people.

06:34

So certain kinds of people that they want to be in the same circles with, they're going to look at them and think that, you know, they're, they've caved or something, they've compromised.

06:42

So like on paper, they think it's a good idea, but then it's just kind of like a last resort thing that you functionally need to never use.

06:49

And probably, you know, like really in this way, they put it, you know, and really, I mean, like there's much better forms of discipline anyways when it comes right down to it.

06:58

Right. So there's, there's, yeah, that's in there. And yeah, that can be an internet for like really, really serious things.

07:04

But then, but then if you ever, if you really have to like spank people, spank them, it's probably like a parenting failure anyways, because you should have been able to figure out how to resolve it in another way.

07:15

But then the funny thing about that is this is one of those topics, the Bible, like there's a, there's actually a very direct verse that references this.

07:22

And, and a lot of what's happening in this discussion is that they know that there are verses in the Bible on spanking.

07:28

They just don't know what any of them say. Okay. They, they don't like, not only do they not know what any of them say, but if you say like, like these verses in spanking, like if you just read them, there's some of the most offensive verses to modern ears that you can possibly imagine.

07:46

Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to read a few, but then like the thing is that there's one, there's one verse in particular that addresses the topic of frequency very directly.

07:57

And I mean, it's just the one that everyone should know, you know, probably 1324 says, whoever spares the rod hates his son.

08:06

Okay. But he who loves, loves him is diligent to discipline him. That directly addresses this question.

08:13

We can, we're done. Like we're done with the episode. We don't have to say any of the more. I mean, if you actually read the verse, what does it say?

08:19

He who spares the rod hates his son. Like that tells you this, this is not meant to be an infrequent thing.

08:25

This is not meant to be something you spare, right? This is meant to be something that's like diligently, right?

08:31

That's what it says. Whoever loves his son is diligent to discipline him with the rod.

08:37

Like that's what, that's what it's saying. So it's not something like, it's not like, you know, sprinkle a little salt on there, but don't overdo it.

08:44

Kind of thing. This is a don't, if you spare it, you're going to spoil the job. Right. So it's using the food metaphor kind of thing there.

08:51

And so it's not just like, just try it every once in a while. This is like, this is your go -to tool. Now, obviously is there's the issue is there's obviously way more to parenting than this.

09:01

I mean, there's obviously way more than, but then parenting is not less than this. And then we're living in a generation right now that looks like it hasn't been spanked for sure.

09:08

Oh yeah. You can tell. You can, when you, when you meet kids, you can tell the ones that are spanked and the ones that aren't, it's not, it's not hard at all.

09:17

Well, so if you think about like some of these verses, yeah. Proverbs 14, three by the mouth of a fool comes a rod for his back, but the lips of the wives will preserve them.

09:25

I mean, there's a whole category for corporal punishment in the Bible that goes beyond even children at this point to where,

09:31

I mean, and we probably need to do an episode on this at some point, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

09:36

Like we're living in a society right now that would rather put a man in a cage for years at taxpayer expense, then to just publicly beat him with a rod on the back, because we think that that's like inhumane or something like that.

09:48

Right. We'd rather treat him like an animal at taxpayer expense for a year, take away years of his life to, you know, put a permanent, you're a criminal tag on him for the rest of his life and everything else.

09:59

But I mean, this is all throughout the Bible. Um, so, uh, let's see.

10:05

Proverbs 22, 15 folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

10:11

Um, Proverbs 23, 13, do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will, if you beat him, he will not die.

10:21

He won't. Yeah. He won't that, that, Hey, that's an offensive verse, man. Could you imagine hearing, you know, like the apostle

10:30

Paul or something coming along and saying, Hey, look, you're going to spank him. He's not going to die.

10:37

Why are you so, what are you so worried about? You think you're going to kill your kid? Yeah. But what's funny about that is like every time, like your respectable evangelical text type, talk about this verse, they're like, we're not advocating child beating or whatever.

10:50

Like we're not advocating that. And like, you can't just like, it's like, Hey, did you ever read that?

10:55

You know, like, like meaning like they're trained like a circus monkey to come out and make all these like qualifications.

11:01

And Hey, we're talking when you're talking about, like, you're not talking about beating your child. It's not that. And, but then you have a verse right there that says,

11:07

Hey, if you beat him with a rod, will he not die? And so, and I'm not saying that like, there's not, um, but what

11:14

I'm not trying to say is that they're not checks on spanking or something like that. Like, I know that that's an emotionally charged word.

11:21

I'm just trying to say that you can read these passages and it's like wherever the church is at right here, we're just so far away from a biblical worldview and all this.

11:29

So basically what we've done is we've taken every, like all the language of these passages, like spirit, spare the rod, spoil the child, right?

11:35

If you beat him, he will not die. We've taken all that. We basically turned it all into bad stuff. Like that's the bad, the bad form of spanking is to talk about the way the

11:44

Bible talks about it. And then, and then basically the function, basically it's just this thing that you shouldn't really ever do, you know, but then it is, it's there in case they do something really bad, you know, but then for the most part, you know, this is something that you should stay away from in general.

12:02

Right. So, uh, proverbs 29, 15, the rod and repair, forgive wisdom, a child left to himself, bring shame to his mother.

12:11

And that was, that was funny too. Cause, cause it's like in the other side of this, uh, conversation is that, you know, this is just behavior modification.

12:18

You're just treating them like an animal. It's like, you know, like, um, you're like the rat in the experiment that if you go the certain path, you're going to get shocked or whatever.

12:25

And that doesn't train the heart, right? It doesn't train the heart. Uh, all it does is just modify the behavior, so to speak.

12:31

But then the rod of reproof gives the wisdom. I think that means that chain, it, you know, helps correct the heart to, you know?

12:37

Yeah. Yeah. Obviously you need to give words that give an interpretation for what's happening as well.

12:42

That goes along with that. But yes, this is designed to do a lot more than what people think. Yeah. And I think, I think it's so weird.

12:49

You know, whenever you have this conversation, there's so much baggage with it. There's so much emotionally charged language that I think the majority of the time someone comes along and says,

13:01

Hey, we should probably be spanking children more than we are as a society right now.

13:07

Maybe we should start taking these verses seriously. You know, no, these verses are not talking about a, you know, metaphorical rod that only gently guides, you know, no, it's talking about a rot.

13:18

Like, I don't know how else you read, which proverb was that talking about?

13:23

You know, if you, if you, uh, if you spank your son, he won't die. Or if you strike him with the rod.

13:30

So Proverbs 23, 13, that is not talking about gentle guidance, you know, with the, with the rod.

13:38

Nudging them. Yeah. That's not what that's talking about. Sorry.

13:45

I'm sorry, but it's not talking about that. But then every time you have this conversation, it's constantly a, oh, so you're for beating children.

13:54

What? No, you know, like, oh, so you're just going to hit them and then not say anything like a child abuser.

14:02

Like what? No, I have not said any of these things. You are projecting all of that onto me.

14:08

And so I think what happens is, you know, you start talking about spanking and, and a lot of people, they just jump to the conclusion that it's like the, the drunk dad.

14:17

Who's just mad because of whatever. And he's just hitting his kids left and right and not explaining anything.

14:24

And that's not what anyone is talking about. Everyone who's talking about spanking their children, there are people who are saying,

14:30

Hey, I love my kids enough to know that the, you know, I trust the Bible. I trust what

14:36

God has said. He's saying that spanking is a good thing for them. So I'm going to spank them.

14:42

And they're not, I mean, they're not foolish parents. They're people who are coming along and, and, you know,

14:48

I think they understand that you can't just, you can't just spank your child and say nothing about it, not explain anything, you know, especially, especially these parents who are saying like,

15:00

Hey, this is a, this is used to teach. This is used to, to guide children and help them distinguish right from wrong.

15:08

You know, I, I find it hard to imagine that those parents are talking about, Hey, I'm just going to, you know, the minute my kid does something

15:15

I don't like, I'm going to, I'm going to spank them and then not say anything and move on. I find it hard to imagine that they're saying that as opposed to,

15:23

Hey, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to spank my, I'm going to spank my child. And then I'm going to explain to them.

15:30

This is what you did. This is why it's wrong. This is what the Bible says. And then this is what we have to do.

15:36

You know, if we want God to forgive us, this is how we handle pursuing forgiveness from God and repenting.

15:42

And then, you know, along the way, as you do that over the years, eventually they start to learn to do that. Those follow those steps on their own.

15:50

That's the whole point of all this. The point is not to just hit your kid when they do something you don't like. Right.

15:56

Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I mean, I would give the other side a little bit of a, I give them a little bit of, um, like, uh, understanding in the sense that I, I think that probably most people aren't spanking very well right now.

16:14

But then the issue is like, it's one of those things where, um, you're talking about a topic that is so emotionally charged right now.

16:23

And so, I mean, I would, I would be the first to say that a lot of people who are spanking, you know, maybe they're spanking in anger.

16:30

Maybe they're, I think they're probably spanking very inconsistently. I bet they're not like addressing the, the heart behind it.

16:36

I bet they're not, um, practicing biblical restoration in the process, like meaning,

16:42

Hey, um, now this is over. You're like debts over, you know, love you, care about you.

16:47

Let's be restored. That kind of thing. So I, I think that a lot of parents are probably not practicing it perfectly biblical, but then the issue is like right now where we're at in society is like we had generations of kids.

17:00

I mean, growing up when I grew up, schools still were allowed to spank kids while you're at school.

17:07

Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, uh, I mean, that was particularly during my younger years, like at a private

17:14

Christian school or whatever, there's still a lot of spank, but then, you know, in my dad's like when my dad's generation, they still spanked in public schools.

17:23

Right. So, but then the issue is like, they, like you look at where we're at right now, we've as a society withheld discipline in this form from everyone else, right.

17:34

I mean, done, done the perfect, like it, you know, no one's ever going to do it perfectly, but then like you can look at our society and say,

17:42

Hey, we're not doing it at all. And look at how they're turning out now that we're not doing it all. So then if you were to say,

17:48

Hey, would you rather it be done in perfectly, you know, even with anger and whatever else than not be done at all.

17:54

I would say, well, you can obviously look at society and say, Hey, look at the mess we're in because we're not even trying anymore.

17:59

Right. Yeah. So like the issue is the way that it's framed is like, if you're going to do it, you have to be very careful.

18:04

You must be perfectly done in every single instance. That's why no one's doing it because they're just like, well,

18:09

I don't want to mess this up. It's like, well, but look at the product. You're messing entire generations of people up because you're too afraid to try.

18:18

Right. Right. Because you bought into this idea of like, just like in a rational kind of perfectionism at one point.

18:25

I mean, in, in this is where it's kind of ridiculous about it. It's like, we don't do this with any other area of life or with, we only do this with areas of life, which are currently contested, but then imagine like a husband saying,

18:37

Hey, I don't want, you know, I want to make sure I get this work family balance. Right. So I'm just not going to go to get a job until I can figure it out and make sure

18:45

I get the perfect formula or something like that. But that isn't the way that life works. I mean, like God uses imperfect people using imperfect means to accomplish his purposes.

18:54

Right. So when you're, when you're looking at something like this, I mean, this, you do have to say, Hey, we need to, uh, encourage people to do this more.

19:04

I mean, obviously I think, yeah, we need to coach them better on how to do it. Um, bring, you know, principles of restoration into this.

19:12

You shouldn't be doing this just out of control, angry, frustrated, whatever else it shouldn't be done for personal offense.

19:18

Like you're just personally indignant at what's happening and taking out your, you know, insecurities on them or something like that.

19:25

But yeah, no, this is just a normal part of life. It should be faithfully done. It shouldn't be a last resort. The Bible even says it.

19:30

So I don't know what to tell you. Okay. So, so I guess just to close us out, why don't you just walk through, let's say you have, you know, you have a, you have your kid and, you know, they've, they've done something worthy of a spanking.

19:47

What, what would the step -by -step process look like if you were to do it, you know, the, the best way you possibly could.

19:54

I thought Nancy did a great job in that video of explaining the one that got everyone so mad.

20:00

I thought she did a great job of explaining the process in the sense of, Hey, like, um, like she did it right.

20:06

I mean, you, you have a lot of people who say, Hey, you shouldn't, you know, spank for that petty reason because they misrepresented her reason, uh, as far as that's concerned.

20:14

But I mean, she was spanking her child, as she said, because they were grumbling and complaining and she wanted them not to be some moody, depressed

20:21

Gothic, you know, Edgar Allen Poe type who's sitting over in the corner brooding because they're so fussy and mess, you know, uh, uh, irritated at the world around.

20:30

She wanted them as the Bible says in everything, give thanks to have joy. But I mean, she basically spanked her daughter after her daughter fussed at her arrival.

20:38

And then next time she prepared her to go into that encounter, reminded her what to do when she came back to get her and make it more a joyful encounter and less of a, like a, a fussy complaining response.

20:54

you know, so, I mean, I, I think that's, that's great. I mean, like spanking is supposed to be disciplined, training and righteousness. What you're supposed to be doing is training them to do the right things.

21:01

So to the extent to which you can communicate with them at this point, it's like, what you should be doing is you should be spanking them for the thing they did wrong and then training them on how to do the right thing.

21:11

And then what also needs to go in there is some sort of reconciliation moment where, uh, God's forgiven us.

21:16

It's all done. We've forgiven you. It's done. We're moving on. Um, and then you teach them what to do next time. So, you know, that's obviously what you do, that kind of thing.

21:24

When, uh, there's a corrective moment, but I mean, this is also the kind of thing you do when you have a baby who is crawling with a fork towards the light socket, you know?

21:35

Yeah. Yeah. It's not just for intentional disobedience. It's also a training mechanism to say, Hey, don't do that.

21:40

Cause you're going to kill yourself. You're going to get, you're going to get significantly hurt. So you get pop on the butt so that you realize no pain.

21:50

That's better. You get that, then you crawl out in that road or it's better. You get that, then you stick your finger in that light socket because I'm trying to save your life from, you know, electrocution and all that.

22:01

So, yeah, but I mean, there's a lot more to say, but those are the basic principles. Okay. Well, I think, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on.

22:08

And, you know, this, like I said, this is one, another one of those conversations that just, it keeps coming back once every few months.

22:15

And it's the, it's the same stuff, man. And it all just boils down to, there's a lot of people out there that just simply,

22:22

I think they at deep down, if you could get down to the bottom of it,

22:27

I think there are a lot of Christians out there who are still extremely tempted to favor the wisdom of man, as opposed to the wisdom of God.

22:37

And God makes it so plain. I mean, just go read the Proverbs and you will see that, that there's very clear commands about how to discipline our children.

22:48

And it absolutely includes spanking and not just as a last resort, but as, you know, something to be incorporated into their upbringing in general to help them learn right from wrong.

23:00

And, you know, I, I agree with you, Tim, I think we've gone so far from that, that you can just,

23:05

I mean, you can just look out at society and tell that, that we needed more spankings growing up, especially the, the younger generations.

23:14

So, so that's absolutely something that parents need to, you know, keep in mind and, and not feel so ashamed about either when it comes to spanking, because the

23:24

Bible is clear. If you love your, if you love your children, you'll spank them. If you don't love your children, you won't.

23:31

And it's, it's that black and white. It's not hard. So just, you know, think about that.

23:37

If you're, if you're a person who's, who's hard, I'm not going to spank my kids. Think, think about that.

23:43

And the Bible verses are there and you've got to do something with them. And you can't just cop out and say,

23:49

Hey, that's not talking about spanking. That's gentle guidance. I don't know. I mean, what kind of gentle guidance would some people be tempted to think would, you know, kill your children?

23:57

I, you know, that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but anyways, we want to thank all you guys for all the support you show for us weekend and week out on Twitter, on Facebook, in the

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24:43

This has been another episode of Bible bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

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25:15

will be perpetually offended by your every move. Hmm.