Open Call Day

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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this health and a mega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast the apostle peter commanded all christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence the dividing line is brought to you by alpha and omega ministries calvary press publishers the phoenix reformed baptist church and bethany house publishers your host is doctor james white director of alpha and omega ministries and an elder at the phoenix reformed baptist church if you'd like to talk with doctor white call now by dialing 1 -888 -TALK -960 that's 1 -888 -TALK -960 and now with today's topic here's james white and welcome to the dividing line my name is james white and yes we're actually in the studio today it is not snowing uh...

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there is no traffic going by right uh... next to me uh... we are here live back in phoenix we survived our week of uh...

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ministry in uh... mesa and up in salt lake city and we're here live today and that's why we would like to hear from you at five oh eight zero nine sixty five oh eight zero nine sixty two unusual things about the program today first of all i thought it was really cool few weeks ago when uh...

01:24

the new drive time uh... talk show host came on the air marty mento said that you can get hold of him by a l well while he's sitting here in the studio i thought that was sort of cool so guess what you can do that today to yes indeed he folks if if you're one of those cyber dudes and uh...

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you have access to america online which i realize is not a real i s p it's not a real internet service provider it's for people uh...

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who you know need big this colorful buttons to push and stuff like that figure out what you're doing i i i i realize that and i have to admit i do have an a l account uh...

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part of that is all i can say part of that so my wife can use a computer does that really get me in a lot of trouble but part of that the main reason for that everybody control rooms going where you do you sleep in tonight's and uh...

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for the reason honestly the reason i've kept my a l account is that i went and put my a l well address in the back of the first number of books i did and they're still at being published they're still being printed uh...

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the king james only controversy the roman catholic controversy all have my a l well address ortho poteo or t h o p o d e o so i need to keep the a l account because i do get a lot of mail from various sundry people through that particular uh...

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address i do have a real i s p u s west dot net in fact uh...

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that works very well but i do have a o l and if you would like to instant message me you have a little as well uh...

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with a question or a comment uh... do so at ortho poteo that's o r t h o p o d e o uh...

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my little old faithful trusty laptop is sitting here right next to me i did remember to turn the sound down however so if you don't hear that very annoying little ring whenever you get an instant message and uh...

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we can uh... some folks don't like to call into a radio station that's just all there is to some folks they have questions they'd like to make comments but they don't want to do it on the air well here's sort of the back door o r t h o p o d e o a well is the place and instant message me and we'll discuss uh...

03:32

what questions you have otherwise it's five oh eight zero nine sixty or one eight hundred talk nine sixty if you are i'm sorry one triple eight talk nine sixty hey it says toll -free number one way or the other one triple eight talk nine sixty outside of the phoenix dialing area and who knows where that is anymore because i don't know where that is i don't think u s west knows where that is uh...

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it's uh... who knows what dialing codes or zones that includes but hey will uh...

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work with it one way or the other and today is somewhat of an open phones day that is uh...

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as long as i know something about what you could be asking about your free to ask about its and uh...

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i'm not gonna you know we we have a program and i'm on the program fairly regularly uh...

04:21

last time i was i think actually was uh... november of ninety seven called the bible answer man show in hank hanegraaff is the bible answer man and we're not gonna we're not going to use the phrase bible answer man because there's a lot of questions you could ask me about a lot of different groups and i wouldn't know even who you're talking about i mean you call hank hanegraaff up and you can ask about all these word faith teachers he knows all their names he's got a lot of stuff sitting there i clueless don't know in fact i turned on i'm getting a lot of trouble here i'm getting a lot of getting into a lot of trouble today but i turned on the channel between twenty and twenty two last night i never say what the channel is but it's between twenty and twenty two in the

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UHF band uh... not on cable in case you're wondering and uh... i want to watch it for a while because i had made some comments about this network in an article that i just finished for the

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CRI journal and this particular network begins with the word trinity and yet they have a number of people on their network who don't believe the trinity uh...

05:23

people like uh... td jakes uh... who is a uh... modalist and uh... uh... they've had roy blizzard on there who also uh...

05:30

has problems the doctrine the trinity so on and so forth and so i've made some comments about some of these individuals and the fact that uh...

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the head of that network has uh... said that the the trinity and exactly how the trinity works is an issue that is up for debate one of those uh...

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debatable subjects and uh... one of the suggestions i made in the article was they maybe might want to change the name of their network but be that as it may i turned on last night just maybe see if i catch some of these people that i've been reading about it read comments they've made so on so forth the entire time it was on all i saw was singing and a telethon going on and they had up in the corner the number of operators available and the number of operators that were free and you're supposed to be calling in and making your pledges and that's all it was on the whole time and i had it on until i just got tired of the uh...

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bluegrass country christian music and uh... eventually you know gave up and turned something else on but that's all that they were talking about when uh...

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i was listening and i sort of i sort of wondered because there there was one point we stopped saying they started talking about to some of the places where they're beaming their signal and they said they're really big up in uh...

06:41

in alaska and in russia and i had just had to wonder what would an eastern orthodox or a russian orthodox person think of quote -unquote american christianity if this is all they ever saw of it that was not an overly impressive thought it wasn't very encouraging uh...

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that that's probably uh... where uh... where they're getting their ideas of what uh... evangelicals are in the united states but be that as it may that was a something that i experienced last night and i noticed there on the web as well and it just absolutely uh...

07:14

amazes me sometimes uh... what's going on in our country in regards to discernment there's there's people on there the word faith teachers on there you could ask me about i don't know anything about uh...

07:24

i do not claim to be an expert about buddhism or hinduism in fact i'd probably confuse various sundry elements of both uh...

07:33

if you have questions on the subjects that we have covered and that uh... we at alpha and omega ministries deal with specifically areas we've covered uh...

07:42

since we started this program uh... solo scriptura the whole issue of roman catholicism mary uh...

07:48

the issue of the sacraments the mass is an issue that i'm dealing with right now in preparation for a debate on long island on may sixth against robertson janice a roman catholic apologist issues in regards to roman catholicism issues in regards to mormonism we discussed that of course in salt lake city mormon beliefs things like that the jehovah's witnesses doctrinal subjects such as the deity of christ the trinity we spent quite some time talking about the doctrine of salvation uh...

08:17

we had a few callers uh... discussing eternal security uh... issues in regards to the bible it's transmission it's translation we had the uh...

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debate with uh... uh... dr holland recently that's uh... focused upon those particular issues those topics church history what the early church taught believed bible translations those are the areas that so you are more than welcome to give us a call at five oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixty or one triple eight talk nine sixty with your question your comment we would like to hear from you and to get you involved the program today or you can instant message me if you know what that is that they are well uh...

08:56

my screen name is ortho poe dot o everyone always wonders why did you choose that screen name i don't know when you first sign on to with uh...

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thing like that you're sitting there at the screen going well make up your screen name in you always end up with some goofy name with a big long number at the end you'll never remember but i came up with that one because it's a it's a greek verb used in glacians chapter two where paul says that peter and was not walking straight in accordance with the truth of the gospel to walk straight in accordance with a rule to walk firmly and straightly that's what ortho poe dot o means in the greek language and so i figured that's probably a safe bet that no one else has that screen name and uh...

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so that's why i chose it ortho poe dot o o r t h o p o d e o if you're on a a well feel free to drop me an instant message uh...

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not just an email i suppose i could read that too but uh... uh... an instant message be the best way to do it and uh...

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will be glad to take a look at your comments and uh... get them on the air maybe that's where you'd like to comment or ask a question without necessarily picking up the phone and getting on the air but today's your opportunity you have questions you have comments uh...

10:08

five oh eight zero nine sixty one triple eight talk nine sixty if you're outside the phoenix dialing area i have had some people ask uh...

10:17

some questions uh... in fact probably at least once a week i get an email from someone who has read some of the material that i've written on roman catholicism whether be the roman catholic controversy or mary another redeemer they listen uh...

10:32

to the debates we have on the web and by the way steven luker who runs a straight gate dot com i got to meet steven uh...

10:40

in fact rich we've got pictures coming now we had we took plenty of pictures with uh... with me and steven uh...

10:45

there's there's a man with a with a heart as big as is all outdoors and uh...

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steven told me uh... when we met in chicago that he just uploaded i think it was i forget how many megs megs of real audio files to straight gate straight gate dot com uh...

11:04

which is where our real audio files are uh... stored and that included the seven our debate that's was a two -parter with jerry medics on the subject of the papacy and i visited straight gate just last night and i was just looking at all the debates that are there uh...

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the uh... the radio programs that are there this radio program is is archived there as well and uh...

11:27

just a lot of stuff a lot of stuff there so people who access that information they they hear what we have to say about roman catholicism things like that they frequently will drop me a little note and say uh...

11:40

so you've written the king james only controversy written roman catholic controversy written on mormonism uh...

11:46

the forgotten trinity deals while jehovah's witnesses uh... when you get a right the eastern orthodox controversy and i'd just go all mine and it's coming up more now uh...

11:58

for the obvious reason that's uh... what's going on in yugoslavia is uh...

12:04

causing people to think about this particular subject the serbs are orthodox the uh...

12:12

ethnic albanians are muslims and so this is this whole religious issue is being thrown up right now as i understand there's some discussion uh...

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you know we had easter last uh... weekend but the on the orthodox calendar it is this weekend and uh...

12:30

so therefore we have a different uh... situation going on uh... there uh... as far as the calendars and things like that go and uh...

12:39

so that has come out in the news and a lot of people are really confused about what orthodoxy is uh...

12:46

what the issues are with orthodoxy whether there is a you know a lot of folks just figure their their roman catholics uh...

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without a pope uh... but uh... that's that's not the uh...

12:59

that's not the case uh... there are other differences that exist between them and uh...

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some of those differences are very significant but they're still some real problems with orthodoxy there's some real issues in regards to the gospel and there's major difficulty in communicating with these folks it's it's a language issue it is due to the fact that orthodoxy quite simply uh...

13:22

thinks differently than most of us do here in the west you can't ask the questions of orthodoxy that you can ask of uh...

13:32

of roman catholicism or or any evangelical denomination you can't just go to a systematic theology and find out that such and such a group believe such and such it just doesn't doesn't work that way with orthodoxy and hence it becomes extremely difficult to explain that to folks and and the dialogue that uh...

13:52

takes place just uh... just doesn't happen i'm getting messaged here but it's not uh...

13:58

it's not through AOL it's uh... through AODave uh... and uh...

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over on my screen here someone forgot to turn on the screen so i i saw you guys smiling in there so i snuck over and turned on the screen there and uh...

14:14

someone didn't appreciate what i said about the channel between twenty and twenty -two uh...

14:21

says i don't know what i'm talking about and uh... i confess i don't watch it very often and every time that i do i'm i'm absolutely amazed at what i'm hearing i suppose i should expand upon the comments that i made specifically the problem that i have with uh...

14:39

the trinity broadcasting network is the lack of doctrinal content of what appears on it uh...

14:45

that is uh... someone like a td jakes who is a uh... modalist whose own website uh...

14:52

presents a doctrine of the trinity that is an ancient heresy of the church uh...

14:58

tbn has no problem in allowing people like that on uh... i quoted specifically in my article a conversation between paul crouch and benny hin where paul crouch specifically indicated that issues of the persons in the godhead and things like that are debatable issues that's where he was asking benny about his nine persons in the trinity uh...

15:22

teaching that uh... yes benny hin did abandon it uh... but why in the world anyone would ever put it out in the first place is what continues to amaze me uh...

15:32

the problem simply uh... is quite simply a doctrinal issue and for a lot of folks today that's irrelevant and i suppose if uh...

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if uh... what really floats your boat is uh... is clapping and foot stomping and uh...

15:49

and uh... music uh... and you don't care about doctrine or teaching then big deal but worship involves a true knowledge of the object of our worship then it would seem to follow that we should be extremely concerned about false teachings concerning who god is and oneness theology modalism the denial the doctrine of the trinity is extremely important it's just as much of a heresy as a denial the deity of christ is just as much of a heresy as a denial of monotheism and even though it sounds closer it isn't any closer than those other errors and uh...

16:37

so maybe i don't know what i'm talking about regards to who's who and uh...

16:42

who has uh... what program on at what time that's for sure i don't watch it uh... but the simple fact the matter is there is some real problems in regards to the balance of the teaching uh...

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and the theology of the people that's uh... that are very frequently the main characters and uh...

17:00

that's a continues to concern me uh... and i think it should concern anyone uh... who is concerned about god's truth disagree or agree that's up to you you can contact me you can instant message me at ortho podeo o r t h o p o d e o uh...

17:17

there at AOL you can give us a call at five oh eight zero nine sixty one triple eight talk nine sixty you know i'm gonna be debating doctor robert sabin uh...

17:29

some of you have possibly seen doctor sabin and nathaniel urshan on the john anchorberg show they debated the the late walter martin and cal bisner uh...

17:41

on the anchorberg show in i believe nineteen eighty five and at that particular time there is uh...

17:49

i've forgotten how many programs they did maybe three or four programs at least where they discussed the teaching of oneness theology it's rather intriguing on and i'm going off top my head here on may twelfth i'll be debating uh...

18:07

hamsa abdul malik who is a muslim apologist and the thesis of the debate is does the new testament teach the deity of christ and mister malik's viewpoint is that the new testament does not teach the deity of christ the new testament is consistent with the quran in denying the deity of christ and i've been watching a videotape of mister malik debating this issue and uh...

18:32

then i'll turn over and i'll read the debate with uh... urshan and sabin versus martin and bisner on the anchorberg show and the exact same issues come up except in this situation the oneness people are saying jesus is god almighty jesus is deity but from the oneness perspective jesus is both the father and the son the son is indwelt by the father the son is is the flesh and the father is the deity that dwells within him so that when jesus prays to the father that's his human side praying to his divine side there is no eternal son there is no second person of the trinity there's only one person of the trinity who is as it's normally put father in creation son in redemption and spirit in regeneration or in emanation that's the normal way that you will find that this is uh...

19:30

discussed and yet the primary issues i'm gonna have to deal with in both debates are pretty much the same thing even though one side saying jesus isn't god and the other side saying jesus is god the fundamental errors they're both making partake of the same nature and that's because both misunderstand the doctrine of the trinity both try to make god unitarian and there's a vast difference between being a monotheist believing there's one true god and being a unitarian that is believing that the being of god is shared by only one person very big difference there both sides assume that if you believe god is one that means you believe that he is one person and that doesn't follow but the same issues are going to come up in just uh...

20:19

they're only two days separated from one another one's the twelfth one's the fifteenth there on long island doing these debates in may and yet even though one's denying the deity of christ the other would affirm it pretty much the same issues are going to be debated in both it's going to be a very very interesting time where we're there on long island and uh...

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i hope you'll be praying for us as we engage in that uh... that work there'll be three debates or on long island and that's not including at least fifteen different speaking opportunities beyond that in fact uh...

20:49

i don't know if i'm the first but uh... very early on on my trip to long island i will be delivering a two -part lecture on the trinity at a worldwide church of god and a lot of folks are uh...

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he says he said they don't make sick excuse me he thinks you're doing what at the worldwide church of god if you have uh...

21:11

listen to the bible answer man show you know that uh... uh... the general secretary that the nomination has been on a number of times and uh...

21:19

it is pride the only time in my recollection that i can think of a group that was distinctly cultic has shed its cultic background and adopted orthodox uh...

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christian beliefs and has moved the right direction uh... i've seen a whole lot of groups that were once orthodox go the other way uh...

21:39

but you almost never see it go of the direction it's gone with the uh... worldwide church of god and so i will have the opportunity i think uh...

21:47

around the things from thirty first of april i should've brought my schedule with me uh...

21:52

on thirty first of april first of may around in there uh... to be delivering a series of uh...

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lectures on the biblical doctrine of the trinity at a worldwide church of god that's uh...

22:04

i never but i never thought back in the eighties when i was a studying the worldwide church of god and armstrong is in all of his uh...

22:10

very interesting teachings and beliefs that i would be sitting in a worldwide church of god church explaining to the folks as not in a debate format but uh...

22:21

actually as their guest uh... what the doctrine the trinity is for them because they want to know they want to believe they want to understand and uh...

22:30

that is truly a a wonderful opportunity five oh eight zero nine sixty one triple eight talk nine sixty is the phone number if you would like to ask a question have any comments concerning any of the things that we've discussed whether it be church history whether it be the transmission and translation of the bible mormonism uh...

22:49

we've made a number of comments last week as we're up in salt lake city about the lds faith and about uh...

22:56

the mormons with whom we were speaking and if you were listening last week i will just uh... simply tell you that uh...

23:02

for some reason and sometimes this happens to some trips are different than others for some reason uh...

23:07

the rest of the day i continue to have the same kind of conversations i'd had up to that point and you may recall that i i mentioned that i encountered a lot of folks a lot of folks who had very very dull years uh...

23:23

in salt lake city that is uh... no hunger for the word of god uh...

23:29

no hunger to obey it an almost cavalier attitude about what the scriptures said uh...

23:37

the one man that that i talked with him concerning jehovah's command that he alone is to be worshipped it was honestly it was it was no better than uh...

23:45

well so that was that was basically the uh... the level of the responses that i was getting from individuals up there and i continued pretty much to the afternoon now other people were having the same situation so i guess that just meant that the uh...

24:00

lord decided to have me it's not to all the uh... to all the uh...

24:06

hard hard cases i guess we might say uh... uh... while we're up there and uh...

24:12

that left the other folks talk to to the good folks i don't know uh... i don't know but uh... it was uh...

24:18

it was a difficult thing to see that because i recognize there's nothing that i can do by what words i say uh...

24:26

by what actions i take uh... to melt that heart i did you just simply doesn't matter what facts you have it doesn't matter what arguments you have it takes the spirit of god to place within a person's heart a hunger and a desire for god's word and a willingness to be obedient to god's word you simply cannot in any way shape or form uh...

24:54

create that in a in a fake fashion uh... i suppose uh...

25:00

that there probably are emotional hot buttons that i could push and and certain things that i can do i'm not willing to do that i'm not willing to use those types of uh...

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cheap techniques in essence uh... to get around those things so it just keeps reminding me of the necessity of the holy spirit opening a person's heart to understand his truth and that's true with anybody that's true whether you're dealing with uh...

25:26

jehovah's witnesses whether you're dealing uh... with a situation where you're you're talking to a a roman catholic who is very strong in his faith uh...

25:36

very committed for example to uh... mary as uh... as the bodily assumed queen of heaven well whoever it might be you cannot simply by your words change that person's heart the holy spirit of god must be active in that situation we are absolutely positively dependent upon his work in that five oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixty i know there's someone out there because my wife called in she did hear what i had to say and of all the times to be listening you know of all the times we're listening one triple eight talk nine sixty one triple eight talk nine sixty if you're outside the phoenix dialing area it is nice to know that someone out there it's indeed listening and uh...

26:29

even uh... even if it came around that that perspective give us a ring let us know what you'd like to discuss maybe you just have some program uh...

26:36

suggestions for the future maybe you would like to see some uh... dialogues and debates like we've had in the past but with other groups i can let you know whether it's a possibility or not uh...

26:48

maybe some of you have some ends with some folks that i don't have in regards to arranging something for example uh...

26:55

we have had uh... a suggestion that uh... one interesting area of uh...

27:00

discussion that uh... would be interesting for folks uh... would be pedo -baptism and not pedo -baptism in the roman catholic sense or even in the lutheran sense uh...

27:13

but the debate between baptists and presbyterians on pedo -baptism specifically the concept that infant baptism is the sign of the covenant uh...

27:24

there have been some who have suggested that that would be an interesting uh... subject to discuss and to debate and i can think of a few folks who might uh...

27:33

be willing to take up that particular invitation uh... most of them are my friends though and i don't want to necessarily ruin our friendship so i'm not really sure how to uh...

27:42

how to work that out one triple eight talk nine sixty five oh eight zero nine sixty we have one call on the line and if you are on AOL i am too right now waiting for your instant message at ortho podeo o r t h o p o d e o i hope no one else has a uh...

28:00

screen name very close to that because it's easy to misspell it and you might be instant messaging someone you don't want to instant message o r t h o p o d e o is the screen name and if you'd like to drop me a note there i'd be glad to respond to it on the air we're gonna take a break be back with your calls right after this and welcome back we are taking your phone calls today at five oh eight zero nine sixty or one triple eight talk nine sixty your questions your comments your concerns and hey we almost had one complaint uh...

28:39

i'm certain that there are folks who uh... in some way shape or form disagree with something i've said it's almost frightened to think someone wouldn't uh...

28:48

over the past number of months and all the things that we have discussed and we are making available through the wonder of technology you can contact us at ortho podeo o r t h o p o d e o through AOL if you'd like to uh...

29:03

drop an instant message to me i don't care if it says hi how you doing i'd like to make sure this thing works actually uh...

29:10

just make sure that my connection is uh... right here and i'm set up properly i could just see i get a flood of emails later on saying yeah i tried and you weren't uh...

29:19

you weren't responding or something that's probably not the way it is well anyways let's go to dennis in phoenix hello dennis mister white how dare you insult the trash and blasphemy network i didn't say that now i i did not say anything even close to that and uh...

29:38

i want to just make sure everyone understands that i don't live anywhere near dennis and uh...

29:46

well i've heard that uh... phraseology is but i didn't use it uh... and uh... on i am not responsible for what the colors may say anyways you know your your topic to your subject up there on the screen doesn't uh...

29:59

doesn't say that it says something well you know i can't type everything i want to uh... okay what can we talk to you about eastern orthodoxy well i'm i'm a little concerned about another show and not you okay uh...

30:13

i heard a reformed person whom i respect greatly use the phrase our eastern orthodox brothers and that kind of threw me because on that same show at least concerning a particular eastern orthodox guy one of the other hosts talked about a debate he had with him and he at one point said to the person you know you're an infusionist from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet and i'm like well hold on here right what's the deal are they infusionists or not?

30:37

boy i wish i knew uh... i get the feeling that yes uh... there is there is that type of a concept but this is the problem that i have and and thankfully there there's a uh...

30:48

uh... pastor friend of mine larry carino on long island uh... who has uh...

30:54

taken up some of the challenge thankfully of studying these things and helping us to understand the orthodox mindset because it is it is a task unto itself the asking that question and using terms like infusionist the idea of an infusion of grace rather than uh...

31:15

the imputation of righteousness and things like that unfortunately it assumes a vocabulary in common that we don't have and certainly it with some eastern orthodox folks for example frankie schaefer francis schaefer's son uh...

31:33

has become a very strong advocate of orthodoxy though interestingly enough almost every single life -long orthodox person i dialogue with doesn't like frankie schaefer strangest experience i've had every time i say well i've looked at some of schaefer's uh...

31:48

oh well he's not really orthodox and it's like uh... okay uh... but but except for those types of folks he was a time of him was in no no although although i've heard preparation for the with the poster boy for kind of getting evangelical think yes or no yeah that's true is the in in here in the united states he's doing that uh...

32:11

but a lot of the folks who are orthodox who grew up that way uh... maybe came united states from another area uh...

32:17

well there's a lot of bickering between the various orthodox groups i mean uh...

32:23

i don't even i couldn't begin to to provide a meaningful list of of all the different subcategories of orthodox there are all i know is they don't like each other very much and uh...

32:35

for them differences merely in liturgy and in whether you say one prayer before after something else uh...

32:42

is as important to them as uh... incredible doctrinal differences are for us i mean uh...

32:48

the the stuff you mentioned about tbn we might we might say well i have a real problem with their uh... allowing non trinitarians or anti trinitarians a platform uh...

32:58

we'd find that extremely important to a lot of orthodox folks would find differences in liturgy just as important and that actually explain something because when i've tried to ask orthodox folks exactly what they believe and why they believe it so on and so forth frequently the answer i get is look you're asking the wrong questions and if you want to know we believe look at the liturgy look at the prayers uh...

33:20

look at how we worship that's where our doctrine is and it is that type of a situation that i think befuddles most of us who are trying to interact with the claims of orthodoxy uh...

33:32

they talk much of tradition and i think they violate sola scriptura in fact uh... frankie schaefer's uh...

33:38

newspaper has attacked sola scriptura in a rather extensive fashion but not in the same way that roman catholics do because again they're not coming from a western mindset and the the entire world view that the orthodox person at least the the truly orthodox person has that whole world view is so very different that it's it's extremely difficult to nail things down sometimes and i'm sure that the the frustration is mutual but sometimes i feel like i'm trying to nail jello to a wall there's just no substance there to grab onto and to hold it in place and so you know people say well you're gonna write a book in response to eastern orthodoxy eastern orthodoxy a i don't think i'm nearly uh...

34:21

experienced or trained enough to do so uh... and b i don't know what i would write because when you ask a question like well what do they believe about the gospel i'm not exactly sure how to define that not only because it's such a wide movement hence you get a lot of different answers but it's the we can't put it into the same categories and language that we use here in the west because they just don't use the same vocabulary in the same thought processes and it's it's can be extremely frustrating uh...

34:51

to a person who is a isn't aware of that and then be even if you are aware of that and you still want to get through and you still want a dialogue uh...

34:59

it can take quite some time i've talked with eastern orthodox folks seemed as far as i could tell uh...

35:06

to to hold the scriptures as their highest source of authority uh... and even though they still spoke highly of tradition uh...

35:14

they they tested tradition by scripture uh... who who believed in in the the sufficiency of the sacrifice of christ so on so forth about the same time talk to other orthodox folks who were so into the concept of the incarnation and uh...

35:30

doctrine called theosis or divinization that the idea of the cross and things like that almost seemed secondary in their thinking so it'd be very difficult to address that subject uh...

35:43

finding specific dogmatic answers just really isn't an easy thing and so uh...

35:49

you know i've written a book called is the more my brother i'm not sure how to answer the question is the orthodox person yeah i was thinking that during the break i was like wait is the orthodox my brother?

35:58

uh... you know i think in that situation i'd have to say well uh... i would certainly like to hope so but i've got some major problems here mainly because i can't get direct clear answers uh...

36:10

to allow the questions that i would like to ask uh... of many of these individuals uh...

36:15

and i can i can't get answers that partake of the uh... uh...

36:20

of well even of biblical language i think that is one of the major problems is that uh... tradition has become so fundamentally a part of their entire theology that they can't break out of it they cannot step back any longer and examine in any meaningful fashion tradition and that tradition is primarily found in their liturgy it's primarily found in the way they worship in their prayers and things like that but that has become so authoritative that uh...

36:49

for most of them that i've talked to they could not step back and even give consideration to the idea that well okay so we've believed this since say the eighth century but it doesn't necessarily mean that whoever's around the eighth century had it right uh...

37:05

we have to have the ability to go you know maybe what we believe from the eighth to the twentieth century was a little bit off and needs to be corrected because the scriptures say such and so from their perspective you can't really do that and hence you do have that layer of tradition that ends up standing between the individual uh...

37:24

and the scriptures and that becomes a uh... a real problem so if they have any kind of creedal statement or could you break down their prayers and worship liturgy in terms of words and get at some kind of fixed?

37:37

there are books that attempt to do that and they are primarily analyses of the prayers of the uh...

37:44

the sacraments of the of the entire liturgy itself that tries to create some sort of a a system out of that but again it's extremely difficult it becomes very subjective at times and there are the differences we standing outside see quote -unquote orthodoxy those standing inside see a very fractured system uh...

38:06

that is held together by uh... the liturgy and held together by a common tradition but there's various interpretations of that tradition and so it is very very difficult you know at least in in in western thought you can go and you can pick up a catechism you can go and pick up a systematic theology it may be three volumes long but at least you can go look at it and say okay here's a concrete statement we believe

38:32

X in opposition to Y, Z, A, B, and C uh... but that's uh...

38:37

much more difficult to do as far as uh... encountering orthodoxy and dealing with uh...

38:42

their their perspective so like a culture and an experience kind of thing well unfortunately uh...

38:48

in many many uh... eastern european in in russia it is very much cultural uh...

38:55

impossible to separate from the culture and that's why you have orthodox christians in serbia doing what they're doing uh...

39:03

you know going to war over these issues so on and so forth uh... and so yes in in countries like that uh...

39:11

there are tremendous numbers of nominal orthodox they're orthodox because that's what you are in that country just as you go to many roman catholic nations and people are roman catholics because that's what you are when you live in that country that's just the way things are so there's a tremendous amount of that and yes it has become that tradition has become very much a part of the culture and vice versa it's very hard to uh...

39:32

separate them out in a lot of those places like that of course here in the united states while it's growing it's still not all that large and so it actually in some senses is one of the attractions that it's had i think for people like schaefer and some others have gone into it is it's anti -culturalism uh...

39:49

that is the many former evangelicals uh... who are part of evangelical churches uh...

39:55

have gotten tired of seeing how deeply their church has been influenced by the culture and they get tired of worship that is primarily designed to entertain uh...

40:05

and they they long for something more mysterious and if eastern orthodoxy offers anything it offers some level of uh...

40:14

uh... of of a uh... enchanting liturgy uh... beauty mystery that type of thing and an anti -cultural type of a situation where there's a statement against culture uh...

40:27

that wouldn't necessarily be the case where where orthodoxy has been in vogue for many many many decades or centuries or in some places millennia uh...

40:35

so uh... yeah that is that is an issue that comes up because i know uh... the june upcoming june issue of table talk supposed to be on orthodoxy i'm like wow what are they going to say?

40:46

well i think the reason that uh... sproll and ligonier did that is because a debate broke out on their uh...

40:54

internet discussion board on the subject of orthodoxy and all the orthodox in the internet uh...

41:00

every orthodox is a modem uh... landed on that uh... that uh... discussion board and in fact one night in prasapalagia on our our chat channel all the sudden we had about eight orthodox people come flying into the room they all came at the same time uh...

41:16

they're all coming from an orthodox channel so we knew this was what's called an invasion and so we're sort of asking him so well uh...

41:24

what brought you all over here and uh... so on so forth and finally somebody said well we were told you all were discussing orthodoxy in light of the sproll uh...

41:33

ligonier message boards and wanted to come over and talk with you about it and so they all landed in mass well we weren't discussing it actually someone was just pulling a joke on somebody uh...

41:42

but uh... yeah they there has been quite amount of discussion about and that probably prompted them to go you know we need to make some statements about this uh...

41:49

credenda agenda did something along those lines there is an article last year the year before in the

41:55

CRI journal but still there's almost no full -length book to book size treatments on the subject at all anywhere and uh...

42:03

there is a need for that i just don't think i'm necessarily the one that's uh... needs to try to have to have the uh...

42:09

i connect orthodox that might help it might help well hey thank you very much for calling in today uh...

42:14

dennis we appreciate your comments and uh... your faithful listening thank you medical property god bless thanks five oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixties the phone number we're gonna take a break we'd like to hear from you when we get back and welcome back to the dividing line my name is james white and we're inviting your phone calls today in fact don on a mobile has called and when you're on a mobile time is money hello don how you doing don on a mobile are you there here do you hear me?

42:49

I hear you now how you doing sir? the conversation is very interesting to me today uh...

42:54

i've traveled eighty nations of the world and so i've seen a lot of the different versions of religion even though i am of a certain denomination it's been interesting for me to be able to speak in many different denominations but i'm wondering if there isn't something going on in the world that's beyond just all this uh...

43:12

doctrinal friction that sometimes we are exposed to and if we really realize that the enemy of our soul is trying to confuse us to a point and cause such division amongst even whether it's orthodox catholic or protestant or jewish uh...

43:29

to the point uh... that he's dividing the church against itself what would you say that the church includes uh...

43:35

those four groups uh... i'm using the broad sense of that i know it's a broad sense of that you're talking about those who are born again salvation as opposed to you know church doctrinal creed and etc but uh...

43:55

for example i've seen uh... pentecostalism tied in with uh...

44:01

the roman catholic church uh... i've seen uh... uh... pentecostalism tied in with uh...

44:08

orthodox churches in names you know my various travels around the world and there's such a duke's mixture of everything uh...

44:16

no wonder people become confused in these things and that's uh... that's my concern i'm wondering is there a place that we as a body of true of believers now of course we can get an argument what constitutes a true believer but if you take the word of god basically uh...

44:33

you know and basic salvation and basic substance usually there's a there's a line of a golden thread amongst all groups that we can agree to that we need to take a look and i'm not being critical of what you're trying to discuss today because i think it's healthy uh...

44:49

you know from a theological concept and from a biblical study concept but i am concerned as i've traveled the world and seen this and uh...

44:58

i've seen the eastern orthodox church and i've seen the divisions uh... and i've seen the multiple divisions of them uh...

45:05

we'd pick on a certain evangelical group and say they're heinz 57 varieties but i can tell you you can go to almost all denominational groups and find the same varieties nowadays if you travel the world well fundamentally i think that the uh...

45:20

the basis of unity is in a unity of faith in the unity of truth and the only source that we can go to that is unchanging cross -cultural uh...

45:29

and uh... absolutely certain is the word of god and unfortunately in uh...

45:36

most of these groups uh... there is a there has overtime developed a doctrinal assertion uh...

45:42

that in in essence the scriptures become secondary in their authority to whether it be tradition or some sort of liturgy or or whatever it might be uh...

45:51

that's what ends up happening and i think that uh... i think you're right that there is something afoot in the world but i think that that is it's not so much uh...

46:00

uh... causing divisions as those divisions are the result of that action over time and uh...

46:07

you know jesus said that's uh... in his high priestly prayer sanctify them in the truth thy word is truth not uh...

46:14

traditions about his word or anything else and so i i really think that's the direction that uh...

46:19

that we need to be looking for unity between folks is uh... i fully concur with what you're saying because i agree with you know from a theological a conceptual point of view and there and who are we though to put uh...

46:33

tradition uh... when we put and to criticize those who put tradition above the word of god when so many uh...

46:40

who claim the infallibility of scripture also put certain aspect of tradition and culture above the word of god well there's there's no there's no uh...

46:47

way to deny that uh... our our proclamation that truth is weakened when we are inconsistent in examining our own traditions uh...

46:55

but my hypocrisy if i have committed that doesn't change the truth that the word of god can be the only foundation and of course if i'm going to tell others that you need to examine your traditions by the word of god i need to do the same thing uh...

47:11

and i think i've been very consistent anyways uh... over the years and uh... challenging the audiences that i speak to uh...

47:18

that's just because you say you believe in sola scriptura do you actually practice it do you put it into practice do you examine your own traditions your own beliefs in light of the word of god so yeah i i think that is a a very good point and i appreciate that donna help you uh...

47:33

save your phone bill a little bit because we've got other folks uh... on the line i need to get to robert in phoenix robert how you doing yes sir my comment is uh...

47:42

regarding eastern orthodoxy uh... it's akin to uh... roman catholicism uh...

47:48

i know that you uh... have stated that it's impossible to separate from the culture but you can't see uh...

47:53

their orthodoxy in the writings of their saints and the icon worship in the emphasis placed on that and we cannot delineate and separate uh...

48:01

that as true believers and certainly uh... the problem is that uh... while we can specifically focus upon rome's teaching on justification for example and we can discuss issues of what justification means in roman catholicism in regards to the mass the atonement so on so forth uh...

48:19

it's it's far more difficult to do that with eastern orthodoxy because you don't have an authoritative body uh...

48:26

to come out with the council of trend or vatican one or vatican two or or dogmatic papal decrees on such and such of a of an issue uh...

48:35

you basically have to look more to the liturgy and the practice in the prayers uh... to come up with the the basis of your of your delineation so uh...

48:44

yes there's obviously uh... parallels and similarities in regards to liturgy and things like that but i had the roman catholic the uh...

48:52

both roman catholics and the orthodox with whom i have dialogue uh... have also been very sensitive to some fundamental uh...

48:59

issues that separate them not just the papacy and the the issue the bishop of rome and not just the marion dogmas uh...

49:06

because uh... while eastern orthodoxy i think has an unbiblical view of mary it does not have and nearly as high an exalted view of mary dogmatically anyways as uh...

49:17

rome does but they've also point to issues of what salvation itself really is and uh...

49:23

differences in understanding there and of course again we can't assume that either roman catholicism or eastern orthodoxy are monolithic uh...

49:32

monolithic organizations that have just one particular viewpoint you're gonna find people have different viewpoints as well uh...

49:39

do we know anything about their hierarchy or their church structure and i'll take that off the air oh sure thanks a lot for calling appreciate it well we do uh...

49:47

in fact uh... at least at this point there is very clearly a much more ancient uh...

49:53

basis for the eastern orthodox viewpoint than there is the roman catholic and that is uh... they have patriarchs they have uh...

50:00

particular cities and uh... the the bishop of the church in that city uh...

50:05

is the one who has uh... uh... a higher authority shall we say but they believe in collegiality uh...

50:11

this goes back in history if you can sort of think of a map of europe for a moment in your mind uh...

50:17

in the east you had a number of major cities that were called patriarchates and that included alexandria jerusalem antioc and what is now known today as constantinople and so these particular they had they always had to be balancing these bishops against one another the only patriarchate in the west was rome and it's interesting that roman catholicism ends up developing the idea one main leader eastern orthodoxy you have a number of leaders who are equal with one another and they lead in collegiality they lead with with uh...