June 2, 2025 Show with Zach Maxcey on “An Overview of the Upcoming John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennesee”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the second day of June 2025.

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Those of you who listen to my program regularly will know that I am a

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Reformed Baptist. I'm a member of a confessional covenantal

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Reformed Baptist congregation in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and many of my closest friends are also confessional covenantal

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Reformed Baptists, but I've also maintained friendships for as long as I've been a born -again believer with those from a theological camp known as New Covenant Theology, which has a lot in common with confessional covenantal

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Reformed Baptists, but there are some distinctives. And I am not one of those who believe that this issue should be a cause, not the fellowship, with our brethren who disagree over these matters.

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In fact, it grieves me deeply when I hear that there are brethren out there who have that state of mind and opinion and that level of sectarianism.

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And I find it quite interesting that sometimes the closer you are to brethren in Christ in matters of doctrine and theology, sometimes the differences that you have with them are more monumental in the minds of many.

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I can recall, for instance, a covenantal confessional Reformed Baptist, one particular bookstore that was very prominent.

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They would sell books by John MacArthur, a dispensationalist, but they wouldn't sell books by New Covenant Theology authors.

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So that's kind of an odd thing in my mind. I've learned a great deal from many men in ministry who are from the

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New Covenant Theology background. One of my modern -day heroes was

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John Reisinger. I used to attend the John Bunyan Conference in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and then later in New Ringle, Pennsylvania.

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I did attend one at their new location for the Bunyan Conference, Franklin, Tennessee, and actually was given the honor and privilege to moderate the

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Q &A with the audience and the speakers. So I hold that memory very dear in my heart.

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But today we have joining me again a returning guest who is from the

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New Covenant Theology camp. His name is Zach Maxey, and he's president of Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology.

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And today we are going to be having Zach provide an overview of the upcoming 2025

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John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee, and the theme will be Israel—past, present, and future.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Zach Maxey. Brother Chris, it's great to be with you.

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Always a pleasure. And I do remember when you shared the question and answer panel.

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It was a good time. Yeah, I enjoyed it very much, and it seemed that the audience and also the panelists enjoyed it a lot as well.

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So why don't you remind our listeners about Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology.

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So Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology is a successor to the seminary that I graduated from, so Providence Theological Seminary, which was in Colorado Springs.

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And it closed its doors in 2017. I graduated in 2012.

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But just because of low enrollment, and then we were also competing against seminaries that are very well established and very solid.

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So one in particular, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which is a great seminary, and I've recommended quite a few people to go there.

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And so we found that we wanted to work alongside them, not against them. And so we decided to transition the seminary into an institute.

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And so, at least for right now, the Lord has seen fit to provide openings for us to come alongside of like -minded churches.

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So we've hosted many conferences. We've hosted so many conferences down in Texas. We, of course, have our annual conference that's down in Franklin, Tennessee.

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So it started off as the Council of Biblical Theology for PTI, but now has transitioned as the successor to the

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John Bunyan Conference of Old. And we look forward to really building bridges.

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So not only within New Covenant Theology, because as any theological system,

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NCT is not monolithic by any stretch. And so we're trying to build bridges internally.

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And then, of course, build bridges with our Reformed Baptistic Brethren and other members of the

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Reformed community, and just continue to press forward the principle of semper reformanda, so always reforming.

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And so holding to the doctrines of grace, holding to the solas of the Protestant Reformation, and then just trying to work together to come to an even better understanding of the

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Scriptures through the power of the Holy Spirit. And being able to agree to disagree in disputable matters of the faith.

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So I echo what you said earlier, where it does grieve me in particular when brothers decide to end fellowship over disputable matters of the faith.

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We want to lock arms in the essentials, and we want to be able to agree to disagree and have

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Christ -like discussions and debates about disputable matters of the faith. But that's really the goal of the

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Institute, is to build bridges. And then, years from now, if the Lord does allow the opportunity to open back up as a theological institution, if conditions change, then we would go from there.

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But at least right now, we just view ourselves as partnering with other like -minded New Covenant theological churches.

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Yeah, and I remember that as strong as the late

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John Riesinger was in his beliefs about New Covenant theology, he was ironic enough and gracious enough on occasion to have

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Covenantal Reformed Baptists speak at the John Bunyan Conference, one of whom,

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I don't know why his name escapes me, he, I believe, was of British background, and I believe he may have pastored in Canada.

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I know that he was at one time Kirk and Stephen Willems' pastor, I believe, and maybe you remember his name, but I don't.

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But he is also in eternity with Christ now. Perhaps if anybody listening remembers his name, they will send me an email with a reminder of this brother, because I remember how powerful a preacher he was.

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But I just remember John. I mean, John knew that I was also from a Covenantal Reformed Baptist church, and he never treated me with suspicion or disdain.

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I was always warmly welcomed at the conferences, and he always came on my program when

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I invited him. One thing that I noticed over the years is that both sides of this divide have maligned and slandered the other side with exaggerations, distortions, and outright falsehoods about what the other believes.

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And so those kinds of things should never be permitted. And Chris, if I can interject, it's funny you say that, because I have a lot of folks in the

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NCT side of things that want me—because I'm currently working on my doctorate very slowly, and I've had to pause it.

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So I teach at a classical Christian school in Middleborough, Massachusetts, and I teach a variety of subjects, and I love it.

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I teach Greek, I teach the high school Bible, I do some of the Western civilization, so I just absolutely love it and love teaching.

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Prior to that, I worked for Best Buy, and I was able to get a little bit more of my doctoral work done.

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But a lot of my NCT brothers have come alongside, and basically you need to shift what you're working on and really contribute to this discussion between Reformed Baptists and New Covenant theologians.

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And it's funny you said what you said earlier with the maligning, because that certainly took place, and that grieves me when

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I read about it. But I think also that that maligning happened due to some misunderstandings.

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So, for example, I'm shifting my doctoral work to focus on really what is the division between— or has

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NCT understood the First London Baptist Confession as well as they claim to?

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Because NCT folks really grasp onto the First London because— 1644. 1644.

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And just because of its length, it doesn't go into as much detail as the 1689 does.

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Now, that being said, I think we in NCT, I think that we have attempted to pull the 1644 over to our side.

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Because I've shifted my doctoral work, and I'm going to try to get it approved by this coming summer.

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And I think what happened was folks like Walt Chantry and then some of the folks that John Reisinger and other

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NCT folks were interacting with early on, when the 1689 was basically rediscovered and folks were really delving into it to see the distinctives between it and the

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Westminster, I think, at least in some of Walt Chantry's writings, he's reading the concept of the

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Covenant of Grace from the Westminster into the 1689 a bit.

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And then I think New Covenant Theology did the opposite, whereas we attempted to read New Covenant Theology into the 1644.

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And I don't think those two covenants, or those two confessions, mind you, I don't think there's a sharp divide in what they teach.

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I think they're very close in line, because the signer that signed both of them,

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I have yet to find any really strong theological shift in his own position.

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And so I think that the 1644, I think we've probably overstated what it is in New Covenant Theology, hoping to really grab hold of a confessional, and it's a great confessional statement.

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I think we've read too much into it, because I think that the 1689 and the 1644 are very much teaching the same thing.

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Yeah, from what I understand, and I don't know if this story I've heard is in error, but I have heard that the reason that the 1689

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London Baptist Confession even came into existence was an effort to demonstrate to the

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Presbyterians that Baptists were not an oddball cult, and they purposely copied, not in a underhanded way, it wasn't plagiarism, but they intentionally copied nearly all of the

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Westminster Confession and included it in the 1689

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London Baptist Confession, with the exception, obviously, of things that were uniquely

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Baptist. Things involving church government, things involving the ordinance of baptism, and so on.

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And so there you have that. So that's what

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I have heard. And the men, as you said, that were involved in the framing of the second

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London Confession, who were also a part of the first, it's not because they changed anything, they just wanted to offer that more vivid olive branch to the

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Presbyterians. And of course, it also includes some of the doctrines that were available in the

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Savoy Declaration, the Congregationalists' Confession of Faith. Absolutely.

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But I just hope that, and I do see a greater warmth and a greater willingness to work together and enjoy fellowship between the two groups than I've ever seen.

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When I was first saved in the 1980s, that was very rare outside of my own church, even though my church was a

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Covenantal Confessional Reformed Baptist church, we had some

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New Covenant men like Tom Wells speak at our church, and there were a couple of others.

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Tom Smith, who eventually actually became an

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Anglican minister, but he was at the time, in the 80s, a New Covenant Theology Baptist pastor, and we had others.

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My pastor was not so sectarian that he did not welcome into his pulpit men that he had so much in common with that he believed were gifted preachers.

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So I just thank God for that. That was Mike Gaydosh, my very first pastor as an evangelical, after I was saved out from Roman Catholicism.

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And even today, some of my dearest friends in Covenantal Reformed Baptist churches, like Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, they've had

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Tony Costa preach there. Tony, as you well know, is a New Covenant Theology man, because he has preached at the

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John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee, and others. So I'm glad to see that that is occurring.

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I hope it starts occurring in an even greater way. And people who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace,

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I'm not saying that we should be so open and loose in our standards that we invite anyone into the pulpits of our churches, but at the same time, if we believe in the sovereignty of God, we've got to stop being so paranoid over the fear of, oh, we can't have that person speak for us because they believe this or that, and they may draw people away from our church into that thinking.

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Now, it's ironic that Reformed Baptists routinely have Presbyterians preach in their pulpits.

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And they have taken, not that this was their goal or intention or anything, but there have been many

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Reformed Baptists who have left Reformed Baptist congregations and become Pato Baptists, starting with their admiration of Pato Baptist preachers.

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For some reason, we have no fear of that, and yet we tend to be hyper -paranoid about things that I think are even less seriously different.

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To have folks from the New Covenant theology, and I'm sure that that occurs in New Covenant theology churches too, where they would never in a million years have a 1689 man in their pulpit.

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But hoping that this program can just be another example of how brethren can have enough humility and also discernment and recognition of the gifts and the valuable contributions that we can make to the body of Christ, even if we disagree with each other over things.

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And I'm not even saying that they're trivial differences. I'm just saying that... And by the way,

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I want to make sure our listeners know, we'll God willing be repeating this later on, but we were just mentioning the

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Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant theology that is hosting this upcoming

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John Bunyan Conference to be held at Grace Church at Franklin, who actually are sponsors of this show in Franklin, Tennessee.

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The website for that organization is ptinct .org,

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ptinct .org. And the website for Grace Church at Franklin, the location where the

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John Bunyan Conference will be held is gracechurchatfranklin .org,

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gracechurchatfranklin .org. What is the exact or what are the exact dates of the John Bunyan Conference?

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Yes, sir. So it will be Sunday, June 22nd, 2025 to Wednesday, June 25th, 2025.

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So on Sunday night at the conference, we're going to have arrival and registration at four to six and we'll have two messages

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Sunday night. And then the conference will end Wednesday at 8 .30

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p .m. Great. And we'll repeat that later on. And it's interesting that we are talking about a desire for greater unity between New Covenant theology

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Baptists and Covenantal confessional reform Baptists, because the theme that you have chosen,

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Israel, past, present and future, is a theme where there is an enormous agreement between the two groups of Baptists.

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Wouldn't you say that many, if not most of the time, that there is complete agreement over these issues?

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I would absolutely agree. One of the reasons why this theme was chosen by myself and the board was at last year's conference, if you remember.

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So in April was when Iran attacked Israel with the 40 missiles. And so that was fresh in everyone's mind.

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And then so it triggered a lot of conversations about Israel at the conference. And then the other reason why it was chosen is because NCT shares way more in common with the reformed tradition, but it also has some commonalities and dispensationalism.

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And then so our hope is to try to bridge the gap between the reformed camps and then the dispensational camps.

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And of course, Israel is a major topic of discussion and a major area where the reformed tradition disagrees with dispensationalism.

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And so we would agree with the reformed tradition with regards to Israel, the vast majority of them.

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And then we would differ with certain aspects about Israel with dispensationalism. And because, as I remember from my attendance at the

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John Bunyan conferences, especially when they were being held in Pennsylvania, there was quite a diverse group of folks there that all claimed the title of New Covenant theology.

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And this is an area where there wasn't really a monolithic representation especially because you had disagreement over, you had all millennialists there.

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And one of my favorite speakers and authors, Fred Zaspel, was at least at the time a historic premillennialist.

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I don't know if he still is, but there were definitely differences on how the state of Israel and the future is to be viewed.

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But anything more you care to say about that? Oh, certainly.

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So I would say even now there's still significant disagreements within NCT.

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Again, it's not monolithic when we deal with Israel. So just to give you an example, I know

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John Reisinger, through his writings held that Galatians 6 .16, meaning the

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Israel of God, applied to the church or believers. And peace be upon them who keep this rule, even the

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Israel of God. And so John, in his writing on Galatians, interprets that contextually going through the entire book, where your birthright doesn't matter, but faith matters.

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Circumcision doesn't matter, but faith matters. And that's the point of difference between John Reisinger and then my mentor,

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Dr. Gary Long, who passed away this past summer, where Dr. Long believed that Galatians 6 .16,

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the Israel of God, actually applied to an elect remnant of Israel that was going to come to faith right before the

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Lord Jesus returns. And so even that. And then we've had board members who are also historic premillennialists.

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Most of us are probably Amels on the board, if I were to say. But that's one of the reasons why we stuck away from that particular issue.

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So Revelation 20, we didn't deal with that one. We tried to deal with some of the other more prominent ones related to Israel and prophecy.

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And then how do we deal with these certain texts and whatnot? Yeah, well, there are obviously, as you know, people who would believe both of those descriptions of Israel in the future are true.

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Both those that believe the church is a holy nation, royal priesthood, and also who believe in an optimistic hope of ethnically

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Jewish people coming to Christ in masses, both amillennialists and postmillennialists very often have that understanding.

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Yeah, absolutely. So definitely NCT is not monolithic on that.

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So we tried to stick away from the rapture and whatnot in the millennium and then stick to other passages where we can really build an exegetical contextual argument around.

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Well, we're going to our first commercial break right now. If you have a question for Zach Maxey on the theme, we're going to be addressing

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Israel, past, present, and future, which is the theme of the next John Bunyan conference.

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Well, welcome back. My guest is Zach Maxey, and we are discussing the upcoming

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John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee, on the theme, Israel, Past, Present, and Future.

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If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence. If you live outside the

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USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We have a question from a very dear friend of mine.

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I usually don't give out the full names of listeners who write in questions, but in this case, since he is a pastor,

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I always like to plug churches that I greatly appreciate, and pastors for that matter.

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Pastor Jason Contino of Harborview Christian Church in Port Jefferson, Long Island.

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He has three questions. I'll read them one by one for you, Zach. Could Zach give us some recommendations for books to share with people interested in learning more about or sharing

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New Covenant theology with others like Blake White, David Gay, etc.?

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Sure. At the top of my list, I'll just name off some that were really instrumental to my understanding of NCT.

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The first is a real easy primer to read. It's called What is New Covenant Theology by Blake White.

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He basically goes through and talks about seven of the essentials that are not necessarily unique to NCT.

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It just happens to be that these seven grouped together, that particular arrangement and association is unique, and one of the unique things about NCT.

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Everything from one plan of God, which we have in common with our Reformed brethren, but also that the

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New Testament interprets the Old, which of course we share with the Reformed, but then it goes into things that we would differ with our

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Distanciationists as well, and some of the things that we have in view. So What is New Covenant Theology is a very good one.

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One of the other good ones would be a classic, in my opinion, from John Riesinger, The Four Seeds of Abraham.

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That was a very eye -opening book with just the questions that John is asking in the book, and basically goes through and talks about the physical seed, the spiritual seed, the special seed, which is, of course,

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Christ, and then the believing physical seed, which is the believing remnant of Israel. So going through The Four Seeds and discussing all of those things.

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The other one, some might take a little issue with this, but I would say

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Kingdom Through Covenant. Now, Peter Gentry and Stephen Wellam, at least in the original version of Kingdom Through Covenant, would say that progressive covenantalism, which is what they hold, was a subspecies of New Covenant theology.

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They have since dropped that association, where they no longer call it that.

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But I will say, speaking for the board of PTI -NCT, everything that is in Kingdom Through Covenant, written by Gentry and Wellam, we agree wholeheartedly with.

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So I would still view it, although some would make more of a distinction that that's progressive covenantalism.

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At least PTI entirely agrees with that. Even my mentor who founded PTS, Dr.

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Gary Wong, would say that he agrees with all of that, and that's NCT. So those are the three that come to mind, but Blake has tons of other works, so does

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John Reisinger. I'm going to be laboring this summer to publish my master's thesis that I wrote when

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I was at PTS, which is a New Covenant view of Daniel 9, 24 -27, so the 70

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Weeks Prophecy. But those would be the three I would recommend. What is New Covenant Theology by Blake White, Four Seeds of Abraham by John Reisinger, and then

38:16

Kingdom Through Covenant. Great, and Pastor Contino's second question is, do you recommend a church search engine to help people find

38:30

New Covenant Theology churches, like Cross to Crown Ministries? Yes, I would go through something like that.

38:40

So I know Doug Gooden, who heads up Cross to Crown. We know each other personally. I mean, his resources are great for finding an

38:48

NCT church. I know Jeff Volker also does something similar at In -Depth

38:54

Studies. We actually also have our own list at PTS and PTI, so when folks reach out to me.

39:03

But I mean, I wouldn't be so exclusive going back to what we were originally saying.

39:09

So if you can find an NCT church, if you're a particular advocate of New Covenant Theology, by all means, avail yourself of it.

39:18

But I mean, I would still recommend any solid Nine Marks church where you have solid biblical exegetical preaching, the doctrines of grace being preached, the sacraments being practiced.

39:32

So I would still recommend that. But if you can avail yourself of an NCT church and you hold a

39:38

New Covenant Theology, by all means. And last but not least, any commentaries or study

39:45

Bibles that you can recommend that are New Covenant Theology friendly or supporting of biblical theology, i .e.

39:54

D .A. Carson, Thomas Schreiner, etc.? I would say

40:02

Tom Schreiner's commentary on Galatians is excellent. So I had to use that for seminary, and I still use it to this day when

40:10

I'm referencing the book. I would say his other work,

40:16

The King and His Beauty by Tom Schreiner is great. I mean, there's a whole variety.

40:26

There are no books that are exclusively NCT. There are plenty of folks who do lean that way but have not embraced the term.

40:36

So if you can remember back to the Master's Seminary, their seminary journal put out a series on New Covenant Theology.

40:47

And although they were kind of Frankenstein -y New Covenant Theology, where they were kind of taking from one and then trying to put it together, because NCT is not monolithic, so it sounded a little more discordant than what

41:01

NCT actually is. They were fair in their critique, and not to say that they were unfair with the other stuff, but they were fair in their critique that NCT is a theology of the

41:13

Internet, in the sense that there's no institution that's exclusively devoted to NCT like PTS was, which is the forerunner of PTI.

41:24

So if the Lord does shift

41:29

PTI back to that route to reopen as PTS and then begin publishing things like that, that would be something potentially that could take place.

41:41

But in lieu of that, this is why I do not see a sharp distinction between New Covenant Theology and progressive covenantalism, which is that system of theology that's really promoted by Dr.

41:55

Stephen Wellam out of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So PTI agrees wholeheartedly with progressive covenantalism.

42:03

So again, they have Kingdom Through Covenant, they have a book called Progressive Covenantalism, and so those are also very helpful guides in terms of that.

42:16

He also has a book called, I think it's called From Beginning to End, Christ Through the

42:24

Scriptures. I could be off on that title. But as I understand it, Dr.

42:29

Wellam is also working on his own systematic theology right now at Southern, as I understand it.

42:36

So given how PTI NCT agrees with progressive covenantalism to the extent that it does, and it does not view a sharp distinction between the two, that would be something that, when it comes out, would be excellent.

42:50

And I'm unaware if that has actually been published yet. Now, this is a question of my own since Pastor Contino brought up D .A.

43:00

Carson. D .A. Carson was also one of my modern -day heroes.

43:07

I've interviewed him at least once, enjoyed the interview very much. But I was thrown for a loop when he developed that close relationship he had with Tim Keller and joined forces with Tim to create the

43:25

Gospel Coalition, which is definitely a number of steps to my left.

43:32

And I always had difficulty to in any way promote the teaching of Tim Keller.

43:42

I'm not saying that everything he taught was off base, but definitely some of the things he taught were dangerous.

43:52

For those of you who don't know, he passed away not all that long ago, several years ago at least,

44:00

I believe. But do you know of anybody who might have been on friendly terms with Dr.

44:08

Carson, whoever asked him about that strange alliance? No, I do not.

44:17

I know my mentor, Dr. Wong, I think had some meetings with Dr. Carson, but it was nothing extensive where that particular subject came up.

44:29

But I'm also familiar with those concerns that Tim Keller, so I understand what you're talking about.

44:35

But I don't know of anyone who engaged Dr. Carson on that. Okay. And by the way,

44:42

I highly recommend the aforementioned

44:48

Gary Long, who also went home to be with the Lord. Was that a year ago or so?

44:55

Yes, it was last early July. Okay. Well, I highly recommend his book,

45:02

Definite Atonement. I'm assuming you could get that on Amazon, perhaps other distributors.

45:09

I have purchased and given away many copies of that book, Definite Atonement by Dr.

45:15

Long. And also, anybody that cares to listen to a fairly recent—wow, it was a year ago.

45:25

I can't believe it. Almost a year ago. July 31st of 2024, was the last time

45:33

I interviewed Dr. Stephen J. Wellam, along with Levi Secord, on political engagement in light of the lordship of Christ.

45:43

It was actually a three -part interview. That was part one of the three parts.

45:53

So you can look that up in the search engine of ironsharpensironradio .com and just type in Wellam, W -E -L -L -U -M.

46:02

And the last time and only time that I have ever been to the

46:08

Franklin, Tennessee, version of the John Bunyan Conference. I had the wonderful pleasure of having lunch during a break with the

46:20

Wellam brothers, Kirk and Stephen, and it was really a great time of fellowship.

46:27

So I hope to have both of them back on the program.

46:34

Let's see. Oh, let me plug Pastor Jason Contino's website.

46:41

Anybody who lives in Port Jefferson is traveling through there, visiting that area in eastern

46:49

Suffolk County, Long Island. Or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who are living in that area, recommend them to visit harbourviewchristian .church,

47:02

harbourviewchristian .church. And really love that brother,

47:08

Jason Contino, whose family owned Amado's Restaurant, which is no longer in existence.

47:15

But Amado's Restaurant was well known on Long Island, New York. It was in Amityville, Long Island, where I was born and raised.

47:23

It was well known to be one of the finest Italian establishments in New York.

47:30

And that would include New York City. And celebrities dined there.

47:36

And they also have the infamous connection of having Mafiosa dining there.

47:43

It was Carlo Gambino, one of Carlo Gambino's favourite restaurants. But it was a great place.

47:52

And that was the very first restaurant where I took my late wife,

47:58

Julie, out on a date. That's where we had our very first date during a blizzard. But anyway, just reminiscing here.

48:09

Thank you for your questions, Pastor Contino.

48:15

Let's see here. We have another listener in Rutland, Vermont.

48:24

We have Neil. And Neil wants to know,

48:33

How do you counsel getting involved in conversations with dispensationalist

48:40

Messianic Jews and others who are very highly sensitive about their views of the current state of Israel being actually a fulfillment of biblical prophecy?

48:54

Wow. Neil, thank you for the question. That's a great question. I've had similar questions from my students.

49:01

I would say you can try to use particular touch points that are occurring in the news, because it seems like Israel is constantly in the news.

49:17

Like I mentioned before, last year at the conference I was in was when Iran launched those 40 missiles over into Israel's airspace, and they shot them down.

49:28

And then, of course, we had the attacks in October 8th, and vicious and savage.

49:37

And then, of course, the conflict that's still raging between Israel and Gaza.

49:43

So it seems like Israel is constantly in the news. I would suggest using one of those as a touch point to take them to the

49:52

Scripture, or asking them why they think that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and then just asking them to take you to the specific text, and then just sitting down and just trying to have a dialogue.

50:12

And this is part of where wisdom comes into play, because even in non -eschatological matters, folks can get really defensive when it comes to disputable matters.

50:25

So whether it's Calvinism versus Arminianism, whether it's the sacraments with baptism, so Credo versus Pado, and then also with eschatology.

50:35

And so it's trying to have wisdom and the guidance of the

50:40

Holy Spirit of knowing when and how to ask those questions. But my advice would be to take folks to the

50:47

Word, whether it's Isaiah 53 with a non -Messianic

50:52

Jew, or to go to the promises of Abraham and how do you understand this, and then take them to the

50:58

New Testament and what it says specifically with regards to Christ and the land promises.

51:06

You could take them to passages that talk about Jerusalem being a cup of trembling for the nations, and then discussing what that means, and then other prophetic passages.

51:17

But I think the key thing is to gently take them to the Word. And as my mentor said, he used to always say,

51:25

Dr. Long would say, with the spirit of Priscilla and Aquila, when they took Apollos and basically gently instructed him in the training of the

51:34

Scriptures. And it's really the Holy Spirit is going to be the one to convince. It's not you.

51:40

It's not me. And so the more that they hear of him through his Word, I think the more successful that endeavor will be.

51:51

Yeah, I'm sure you would agree with me that the reason why this is such a highly sensitive matter is that there are many

52:00

Christians who from the moment they became born -again believers, or they may even have been raised in dispensationalist or Messianic Jewish homes.

52:13

And by the way, from what I've heard, somebody may correct me if I'm wrong, I've heard that the vast majority of people who are in Messianic Jewish congregations are actually

52:25

Gentile believers. But I've heard from many of these brethren who

52:34

I've known for years, that's all that they have ever been taught, is that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

52:47

And the only motivation anyone could have to deny that is anti -Semitism. So they are very sensitive.

52:54

In fact, we'll pick up on that when we return from our midway break. Once again, if you have a question of your own, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

53:03

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

53:12

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

53:21

Don't go away, we're going to be right back. This is

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Italy in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino and thanks for listening. Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris' Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Free Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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today, and make sure you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to Zach Maxey and our conversation on the 2025

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. Last but not least, if you're not a member of a

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Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, like Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee, no matter where in the world you live,

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So please, if you are in that category, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Zach Maxey on our theme today,

01:12:03

Israel Past, Present, and Future. Send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:12:09

Give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. But right before the break, we were talking about how unfortunate it is that there are many of our brothers and sisters in Christ, primarily from dispensational and Messianic Jewish backgrounds, who equate amillennialism and postmillennialism with anti -Semitism.

01:12:39

And if you do not believe that the current state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, and we are to view, in fact, those who are ethnically

01:12:57

Jewish still as the chosen people of God, not those from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation who

01:13:06

God calls to himself, whether they're Jews or Gentiles, but uniquely and specifically, and only the

01:13:12

Jews, are considered by many as God's chosen people. If you disagree with that, you are often labeled an anti -Semite.

01:13:21

If you want to pick up there, Zach, and give us your thoughts. No, I would definitely agree.

01:13:29

Pardon me. I have not ever been accused, with myself being an amillennialist,

01:13:37

I've never been accused of anti -Semitism. I have been confronted by some dispensationalists who believe, well, if you're an amillennialist,

01:13:48

Zach, then you believe that God has broken his promises to Israel. And I don't think that's a good argument.

01:13:58

Because it's a question of hermeneutics, of how do we understand those promises and how they're fulfilled.

01:14:06

It's not a question of theology proper. Do I actually believe God has broken his promises?

01:14:12

Well, if you're a Bible -believing Christian, the answer, of course, is you do not believe that God has broken his promises.

01:14:19

And so it's a potshot. And so we need to have the insight to recognize questions without resorting to pejoratives, whether it's anti -Semite, whether it's you believe

01:14:32

God breaks his promises, to actually have a hermeneutical discussion about that.

01:14:38

And it's unfortunate that those pejoratives get thrown around. But, of course, I've had that potshot thrown at me several times, where you believe

01:14:46

God has broken his promises to Israel. I'm like, no, I don't believe that at all. God is fulfilling his promises in Christ to his people, to believing

01:14:55

Jew and believing Gentile. But God certainly has not broken his promises. The question is, how do we understand the fulfillment of the promises?

01:15:05

But I would agree with everything you said. Yeah, I cannot recall ever having somebody point a finger at me and saying, you,

01:15:15

Chris Arnzen, are an anti -Semite. But a dear friend of mine who I've had on this program, who is now in heaven,

01:15:22

Marty Fromm, a Jewish believer, he loved me, he loved being on my show, but he believed that amillennialism, my eschatological view, is anti -Semitic.

01:15:38

He not only told me that personally, but he mentioned it on the air sometimes. He didn't believe that there was any way around escaping from that identity of anti -Semite, if you were amill or even post -mill, which is quite odd, because optimistic amillennial and post -millennial

01:16:04

Christians have a more hopeful view of the future of the Jews than the dispensationalists do.

01:16:12

Because they believe that... How many is it? Two -thirds will be destroyed during the tribulation?

01:16:22

Yeah, that's typically the number that's thrown around out of Zechariah. Right. So, you know, it's strange that that slander...

01:16:32

And now, of course, there are many people, both left -wing and right -wing, who are anti -Semites, who hate the current state of Israel.

01:16:46

And by the way, just because you have a political point of view that does not believe

01:16:54

America should be financially supporting the nation of Israel in any of their military conflicts does not make you an anti -Semite.

01:17:05

You might be an anti -Semite, but that doesn't equate to that.

01:17:13

But it's a crazy world that we live in when these left -wing men in drag are wearing the garb of the

01:17:28

Palestinians and having all kinds of anti -Israel chants when, if they were under Sharia law in any

01:17:37

Muslim country, they'd be executed if they didn't stop what they were doing as far as being homosexuals and so -called transgendered and drag queens and all that.

01:17:48

Absolutely. Well, let me go to a listener question. And this is another listener that I'm going to mention his full name because he's an elder, and I've known him for years.

01:18:01

When I first met him, I believe he was a music minister at a church on Long Island, and today he is one of the elders at Harvest Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona.

01:18:15

His name is Peter Muth, and he has a question, and I'm looking for it right now.

01:18:23

And while I'm looking for it, I will repeat our email address, chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:18:30

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Okay, here it is. Can Zach give me a quick New Covenant theology summary regarding his view of Galatians 4, verses 21 through 31, which is

01:18:46

Paul's allegory of contrasting Sarah and Hagar, who represent two covenants and two lineages of Abraham in this text, as well as the

01:18:58

Jerusalem below, the Jerusalem above, and the

01:19:04

Jerusalem above. Yes, I would agree in Galatians 4, with John Reisinger's position on that.

01:19:15

So you have Hagar, who is said to signify Mount Sinai, and her offspring who are in slavery under the yoke of the law, a law that they can't keep.

01:19:28

And we're told that there are two covenants being contrasted there.

01:19:33

So you have the Old Covenant there. And then, of course, you have the woman who is rejoicing, who is, of course, we would attribute to Sarah, who symbolizes the

01:19:44

New Covenant. And I think what you have going on there, you have a physical Jerusalem on the earth, which, of course, is typological of the spiritual

01:19:57

Jerusalem that is now in heaven with the resurrection, ascension, and glorification of Christ.

01:20:05

And so you have, similar to what's going on in 2 Corinthians 3 -4, where you have two covenants being contrasted, where in 2

01:20:15

Corinthians 3 -4, the Old Covenant brings death and has less glory than the

01:20:21

New Covenant, you have a similar contrast between Hagar, who is symbolic of the

01:20:28

Old Covenant, and Sarah, who is symbolic of the New Covenant. Or at least how the

01:20:33

Abrahamic Covenant is fulfilled in the New Covenant. And so I would view that allegory essentially being fulfilled with the

01:20:45

Old Covenant being transitioned into the New Covenant, or you could say, you could use the term superseding, or you could use replaced, but the

01:20:53

Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant. And then as Hebrews 8 -13 says, the

01:20:59

Old is getting ready to pass away, that was completely fulfilled.

01:21:05

It was inaugurated and, of course, completed at the cross, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, but then when the

01:21:12

Temple was destroyed, it was completely ended. So I do view a contrast between a physical seed of Abraham that is an unbelief, is what you see with Hagar and Ishmael, and then you have a believing seed, which is both not necessarily believing physical seed only, but it's also spiritual seed that is coming from Gentile stock.

01:21:37

And so the offspring of Sarah in that allegory would be believing Jew and believing

01:21:43

Gentile, whereas Ishmael is the unregenerate Israelite. Okay.

01:21:52

Well, thank you, Peter. And if anybody wants more information on Harvest Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona, go to HarvestBibleAZ .org.

01:22:09

HarvestBibleAZ .org. Let's see. We have

01:22:15

Hans in Denton, Texas. And I've been to Denton, Texas.

01:22:22

I went to a wonderful Bible conference there at Denton Bible Church several years ago and had a great time.

01:22:30

Unfortunately, it was in August, and I felt like I was going to be roasted alive.

01:22:40

But his question is, many dispensationalists say that Ishmael is the father of the

01:22:49

Muslims. Do you believe in this way of separating Jew and Gentile as far as where their lineage lies?

01:23:03

Budge, I'm sorry, I think they meant Jew and Muslim. It certainly is possible.

01:23:11

I'm familiar with that particular view. You certainly have to.

01:23:18

I don't think anyone alive could possibly trace out those genealogies, to be exact.

01:23:24

But it wouldn't surprise me if what we're seeing now with some of that conflict is perhaps that, or at least looks like it.

01:23:32

But I would even argue that what's being spoken of in Galatians 4 there, since we're contrasting the two covenants, and Ishmael stands for the unregenerate

01:23:45

Israelite, at least in the book of Acts, you see everywhere where Paul goes, and he's persecuted by both

01:23:54

Gentiles, but he's also persecuted by unregenerate Israelites. And so you have some

01:24:00

Jews who believe, and you have Gentiles who believe, who come over and a church is founded.

01:24:06

And so I would tend to see the fulfillment of the Ishmael versus Isaac conflict there as more going back to Genesis 3, where you have the elect versus the non -elect, or the seed of the woman versus the seed of the serpent.

01:24:24

So it's the regenerate versus the unregenerate, and where Ishmael is persecuting

01:24:30

Isaac. So I don't necessarily view it—I'm familiar with that, but I would view it more in the lines of how

01:24:37

I think Paul is intending that allegory in Galatians 4. Great, great question.

01:24:47

Say hello to everybody in Denton, Texas for me. One thing that occurred to me in an effort to diminish the slanderous rhetoric that those who do not believe the current state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, that those of us who have that view, that the current state of Israel is not a biblical fulfillment of prophecy, are anti -Semitic, one way to somewhat quell that line of thinking is that it may be a shock to many.

01:25:40

Some of you already know this. But initially, in the late 40s and 1950, when the modern state of Israel was established, the

01:25:55

Jews that were supporting that were liberal and secular Jews. The conservative

01:26:01

Orthodox and Hasidic Jews were universally opposed to it, especially the

01:26:09

Hasidics, because they said it was a manufactured false state of Israel that could only be ushered in by the coming of the

01:26:18

Messiah. They don't believe the Messiah has come. In fact, most

01:26:24

Hasidic Jews today, I think some of them, after the nation was established, they gave in to the modern state being truly

01:26:40

Israel and a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. They're, of course, talking exclusively of Old Covenant Hebrew Scripture prophecy.

01:26:52

But most of the Hasidics are still vehemently opposed to the existence of the current state of Israel.

01:27:02

Now, some of them are loony tunes because they will link arms with these leftist activists and spew all kinds of hateful things against Israel, saying the same things as neo -Nazis would say, which is totally bizarre.

01:27:22

But that's to show you that having that as a belief, that the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, is not innately or in and of itself anti -Semitic.

01:27:37

Do you have anything to say about that, Zach? No, I agree. I think, ultimately,

01:27:46

I agree with everything you're saying. So, just to view the founding of Israel in 1948 and then the preceding

01:27:53

Balfour Declaration, to not view those as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy,

01:28:00

I don't think implies any hatred for the Jewish people, which is what anti -Semitism is by definition.

01:28:08

And I would take it even back to the Old Testament Scriptures, which, of course, the

01:28:14

Jews accept. And, of course, in New Covenant theology and even in the Reformed camp, we would hold that the

01:28:21

New Testament has interpretive priority over the Old Testament. And the reason why

01:28:27

I bring this up is at least three of the messages relate to Ezekiel 36 to about Ezekiel 48.

01:28:37

So, Brother Mo Bergeron is going to be speaking on Ezekiel's temple.

01:28:43

I'm going to be speaking on Ezekiel 38 and 39, which is Gog and Magog. So, if you're familiar with the

01:28:49

Left Behind series, it's taken to be a literal invasion of a reconstituted nation of Israel by Ethiopia, Iran, and Russia.

01:29:00

And I don't think that's how you're supposed to read the text, and that's not how the New Testament uses the reference to Gog and Magog.

01:29:06

Now, to the preceding chapters, which is what dispensationalists use to claim that 1948, the reconstitution of Israel, is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, they will bring up the inauguration of the

01:29:24

New Covenant in Ezekiel 36 and then the Valley of Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37.

01:29:32

And there's a problem with that, in my opinion, and I think most

01:29:37

Reformed folks and NCT folks would hold this, is that the modern state of Israel is in unbelief, and they do not accept the

01:29:46

Lord Jesus as their Messiah. And that's a big problem for an interpretation of Ezekiel 36 and 37, when the

01:29:54

New Covenant is inaugurated, and Yahweh says, I will remember your sins no more,

01:29:59

I will put my Holy Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues. And then in 37, you have a picture of this

01:30:07

New Covenant, where you have a Valley of Dry Bones, Ezekiel is preaching to the bones, and then you have the bones form up, then you have sinews, and then

01:30:16

Ezekiel preaches to the wind, which, of course, ruach in Hebrew can mean both spirit, in reference to the inner man, similar to nefesh, it can also mean the

01:30:28

Holy Spirit, or it can mean the wind. And so the spirit entering these reconstituted hosts of Israel has not occurred yet, if we're accepting a literal interpretation.

01:30:42

But the Reformed folks and NCT folks would argue that it has happened, it just didn't happen in 1948, it happened at Pentecost, when the elects from all over the

01:30:54

Mediterranean, so you had believing Jews that are drawn back to celebrate Pentecost, you have the outpouring of the

01:31:00

Holy Spirit, you have—and Reformed folks would differ with me on this part— where you have the inauguration of the

01:31:06

Church, and where it is formed, but we would argue that that is actually the fulfillment of Ezekiel 36 and 37, which means that it has nothing to do, in my opinion, with the refounding of Israel in 1948.

01:31:24

And that's how the New Testament appears to use it, and then the New Testament uses Ezekiel 38 and 39, which comes immediately next.

01:31:31

It uses it of the eschatological battle between God and the forces of evil at the very end of time.

01:31:37

And then you go into the new heavens and the new earth, which you have this cuboid temple of New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, and she's called the

01:31:48

Bride, the Wife of the Lamb, and it just so happens that the temple in Ezekiel is laid out like a square, and just like John was taken to a mountain to see the temple,

01:31:57

Ezekiel was taken to a mountain to see the temple, and it's laid out in the same exact fashion. And so those chapters of Ezekiel, so 36 to 48, appear to follow the

01:32:08

New Testament, and especially 38 to 48 mirror Revelation 20 to 22.

01:32:14

So just taking it back to hermeneutics, and at least how Jesus taught the disciples to interpret the

01:32:21

Old Testament scriptures, I don't think you can argue that 1948 is a fulfillment of Ezekiel 36 and 37.

01:32:30

Right. The majority, especially those who are in political leadership of the modern state of Israel, the majority of them are not even believers in the sense of being

01:32:47

Jews. They're secularists, they're atheists, many of them.

01:32:54

So there's nothing uniquely God -fearing about this modern state.

01:33:02

I mean, obviously, there are people there that are. There are even Christians there. I've interviewed

01:33:08

David Zadok, who is a

01:33:14

Jewish believer, and David has been on Iron Shepherd's Iron, I believe, a couple of times.

01:33:26

But he is a pastor there in the

01:33:32

Tel Aviv area. He took the position of pastor at this church after Baruch Maoz, who

01:33:41

I've also interviewed, retired from the pastorate there. But he also, even though he is a confessional

01:33:53

Reformed Baptist, he had an unusual view that kept the question open as to whether or not the modern state of Israel was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy because, in his opinion, the signs or the things that needed to be present for it to be viewed that way may develop in the future.

01:34:23

So he was not among the majority of Reformed Baptists who would completely rule out that the modern state is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

01:34:36

But anyway, if anybody wants to listen to my interviews with David, you can go to the

01:34:43

Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio website, ironshepherdsironradio .com, and type in Z as in Zebra, A, D as in David, OK, for David Zadok, and my interviews with him will come up.

01:35:00

And the name of the church where he is pastoring is, let's see here,

01:35:11

Grace and Truth Congregation in Kanot, Israel. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right,

01:35:18

K -A -N -N -O -T, Israel. And he's also director of Hagefen Publishing, which is a ministry that is translating great

01:35:31

Christian works, including works by the Reformers and others, into modern

01:35:37

Hebrew and even a modern Hebrew Bible, New Testament, including the

01:35:44

New Testament. But now, if you could, for the sake especially of those who tuned in late, what would be a consensus of belief, especially by the speakers at your conference, if you could briefly describe

01:36:07

Israel past, Israel present, and Israel future? So, in concise summary, so I'm not exactly entirely sure where all of the speakers are on the

01:36:24

Revelation 20 question, but I will say most, if not all of them, are non -frame of lending lists of various stripes.

01:36:30

But I would say this, so most are coming from an NCT background, and so they would argue that the

01:36:40

Church has not replaced Israel, it's that Christ, who is the true

01:36:46

Israel, is the fulfillment of the people of Israel. So, in the

01:36:52

Old Testament, we're left with this dramatic tension where we would have these covenant heads, so Adam and Noah and Abraham, and then it's nationalized to the nation of Israel, and then it gets crystallized down to one individual again in David.

01:37:07

And in each of those sections of Scripture where a covenant is made, there is some sort of failing—Noah gets drunk,

01:37:15

Abraham takes Hagar, the handmaiden of Sarah, to father a child.

01:37:23

You have David sinning with Bathsheba, you have Israel with the golden calf. And so there's this dramatic tension, okay, when is the

01:37:29

Lord going to send that champion who's going to crush the head of the serpent, who is going to fulfill and be in perfect obedience with God's law?

01:37:40

And, of course, that's the Lord Jesus. And the Gospels, particularly Matthew, basically set forth

01:37:49

Jesus as the true Israel. So at his baptism is a type of the crossing of the

01:37:54

Red Sea. You also have the Sermon on the Mount as a new type of Sinai, a giving of the law, as it were.

01:38:03

You also have the choosing of the Twelve Disciples as a reconstitution of Israel with believing

01:38:08

Israel, Judas accepted, of course. And so you have various things like that where NCT, and I would argue that quite a few

01:38:16

Reformed folks, view that Jesus himself is the true Israel. And he is the fulfillment of everything that was promised, of course, we believe as Christians, but in particular

01:38:27

Israel. And so those who are connected to Jesus by faith are

01:38:33

Israel. So it's not necessarily, I would say, New Covenant theology would not, and there are some in the

01:38:40

NCT camp that would say, Oh, yes, the church has replaced Israel. I particularly don't like that.

01:38:46

I don't think it's accurate enough. I think Israel has been fulfilled by the

01:38:52

Lord Jesus. And then whoever is connected to him by faith is an

01:38:57

Israelite, as Paul says, where we are the true circumcision. Or Peter says, you are a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, where those who are connected to the

01:39:06

Lord Jesus by faith and his Holy Spirit are now the new people of God, the church, the new

01:39:12

Israel. And so that's how I would also interpret, and I think most of the speakers will be interpreting

01:39:17

Galatians 6, the Israel of God as believers who are connected to the

01:39:23

Lord Jesus. So I would say that may have been too long -winded, but I think that that would sum up most, if not all the speakers.

01:39:32

Well, let me read the list of speakers that you have. My old friend

01:39:37

Gary George, who I first met at a John Bunyan conference.

01:39:44

I think it was in the late 80s. It might have been the early 90s. Pastor Gary George is speaking on,

01:39:52

Has the Church Replaced Israel? My dear friend Pastor Bill Sasser, who I also met probably at the same

01:40:00

John Bunyan conference in Lewisburg, Kentucky, where they were originally held.

01:40:08

Pastor Bill Sasser, who actually sponsors this program as well, will be speaking on,

01:40:14

Will There Be a Rebuilt Third Temple? Renee Fry, who

01:40:19

I don't know, is speaking on Romans 11, 26, And So All Israel Will Be Saved.

01:40:28

Pastor Paul Carstens, who I have interviewed on the show, will be speaking on,

01:40:33

The Place of Israel in God's Purposes. Pastor Mo Bergeron, another old friend from the

01:40:40

John Bunyan conference in Pennsylvania days. Pastor Mo Bergeron will speak on,

01:40:46

Ezekiel's Temple, Literal or Spiritual? Dr. Joshua Griever, who

01:40:52

I don't know, will be speaking on Ephesians 2, One Man from the Two. My very dear friend

01:40:59

Dr. Tony Costa, who has become an extremely close friend of mine, who has actually preached at events that I have orchestrated and at least one debate that I arranged.

01:41:15

Dr. Tony Costa is speaking on, The Land Promise and Its Fulfillment in Christ and the

01:41:23

New Covenant. Almost said North Carolina there because he abbreviated it.

01:41:28

Sorry about that. Dr. Ron McKinney, who I know, fascinating testimony.

01:41:35

His dad was a Pentecostal pastor who was driven out of the church when he came to the

01:41:42

Darkness of Grace. And I have interviewed Dr.

01:41:48

McKinney on that story. The Early Beginnings of New Covenant Theology from John Zenz to John Reisinger.

01:41:57

That should be fascinating. And Greg Van Cort, who I've had on this program,

01:42:04

Two Ways to Tell the Bible Story. And you can find out all about that, once again, at the website of the

01:42:17

Providence Institute, the

01:42:22

Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, which is ptinct .org,

01:42:30

ptinct .org. Now we're going to our final commercial break.

01:42:37

And if you have a question that you'd like to ask, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:42:44

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:42:50

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back. I'm Dr.

01:43:01

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:43:11

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:43:19

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:43:36

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:43:43

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

01:43:52

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:43:59

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:44:08

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:44:22

I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

01:44:45

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01:45:04

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01:45:58

That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

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01:49:34

James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries, announcing that this

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September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.,

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre -Pastors

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Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

01:50:29

For more details on the Pre -Pastors Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:50:35

That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

01:50:55

Welcome back. We have Ward in Bowling Green, Kentucky, who wants to know, how do you respond to the accusation that New Covenant theology is antinomian, and please define that.

01:51:11

Yes, thank you for the question. So, antinomian comes from the merger of two

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Greek words, so anti meaning in the place of or against, and then namos, against the law.

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And so the charge is that New Covenant theology is against the law of God or somehow puts it on a lower level or denigrates it somehow.

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The way I would respond to that is—and I had a conversation, so I'll frame this in light of a conversation

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I had with my own pastor, probably about a year and a half ago.

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And so he is also a 1689er, and so we were having a conversation together.

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And so, of course, as the 1689 and the Westminster both argue, that the

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Ten Commandments were written upon the heart of Adam at creation. Now, NCT takes a slightly different take on that, because we don't believe that it was the ten that were written on the heart of Adam.

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We believe that it was the two greatest, so love of God and love of neighbor. And so, at the end of the day, in practical terms, nothing is really denigrated in that or taken down a peg or lost or hated against or replaced.

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Now, I would say this. So where the charge actually comes in is that New Covenant theology believes that the

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Old Covenant, as a system of law, has been fulfilled.

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So you do have some commands that we are no longer bound to follow. So, for instance, the ceremonial laws and the sacrificial laws.

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You also have the national or the governmental or the civic laws, which, of course, the

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Church is not a geopolitical nation -state like Israel was in the Old Testament. So, the case law to the side.

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So we're left with the moral law. And so, most of the Reformed community would hold that the moral law is the eternal moral law that is unchanging and is thereby trans -covenantal.

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So it still applies to the New Covenant believer in a slightly different way in that it's been fulfilled in Christ, but nevertheless still applies as is.

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Now, NCT believes that what

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Christ did at the Sermon on the Mount was not merely to take away a bad interpretation of and give the true meaning of the law, as is taught by a lot of Reformed theologians who

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I deeply respect. But as John Riesinger writes in his book, A New Lawgiver, NCT believes that Jesus is actually giving a new law—a higher law, a deeper law—than what

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Moses gave. So, yes, and I've been teaching through Calvin's Institutes with my students at the school where I teach, and so we were dealing with the same very question.

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But I do believe, and NCT does hold, that Jesus is a new lawgiver. And so the law of Christ has replaced the law of Moses, including the

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Ten Commandments. Now, that's not to say that we're without the law, because in 1

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Corinthians 9, 19 -21, Paul says, I'm not without the law,

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I'm under the law of Christ. Namas Christu. In law to Christ. You can translate it that way. So what's the law of Christ?

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The law of Christ is the teachings of the Lord Jesus, the explicit teachings of the

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Lord Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament. It, of course, is the example of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles in the New Testament. And then it is all of Scripture interpreted in light of the

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Lord Jesus. Now, there are folks at NCT, and I don't hold this view, that believes that all

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Old Covenant laws have been canceled, and then that's how they interpret Matthew 5, where it says,

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I have not come to abolish the law, but to build the law. I do not hold that. I hold a view similar, and the board members at PTI NCT, I think

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I can safely speak for them, they hold a view that's more consistent with progressive covenantalism, that everything, including the

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Sabbath commandment, and the Sabbath was given as a perpetual sign of the Old Covenant.

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The Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant, which we're no longer under. However, that doesn't mean that the

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Sabbath commandment has necessarily been done away with, because it's been given to us in Christ, who is our

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Sabbath. He's the Lord of the Sabbath. We rest from our spiritual labors in Him. And every day that we rest by faith in His finished work, we are thereby keeping the

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Sabbath. And thereby, Jesus does fulfill the law and the prophets.

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So, very long -winded answer, probably, but I would say that when you really come down to the end of it, in all terms of practicality, the law has not been abandoned.

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The law has not been abandoned. We just view—we have some slightly different ways of getting to the same place, hermeneutically.

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But again, we still believe that the commandments apply and that we're supposed to obey them.

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Now, we just don't believe what Jesus did at the Sermon on the Mount is just kind of casting off that interpretation and then giving the true interpretation.

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We think that Jesus is taking those commands, and He's actually taking them to a completely new level, where it's no longer, you shall no longer murder.

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It's, you shall no longer hate your brother from your heart. Or it's no longer, you shall not commit adultery.

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You shall not look with lust upon anyone. And every—you can think of others.

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You shall no longer hate your enemy, but you shall love your enemies. So, New Covenant theology would argue, again, the

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Reformed folks are saying, well, Jesus is just telling the true interpretation of Moses. Well, NCT is just saying, no, we think

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He's given a new law and a higher law that's consistent with the law that it came before, but it's replacing it and superseding it to a higher level.

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So, we still get to the same Christian ethics. So, I think the term antinomian is one that's hastily given, and nor should

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NCT folks—and I know NCT folks that do this— we should not respond by saying, oh, well, you're just a bunch of legalists.

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I don't think that's helpful either. And we are out of time. And don't forget, if you want more information about the

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John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee this month, later this month, go to ptinct .org.

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ptinct .org. Thank you so much, Zach, for being such an excellent guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater