June 25, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “Islam 101”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 25th day of June 2018 and I'm delighted to have back on the program

Dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he is going to be discussing today

Islam 101 and we are also going to be promoting an exciting event actually two exciting events coming up in the very near future in fact they're coming up next week.

We are going to be promoting the fact that Dr. Costa is going to be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island located in Medford New York on Sunday July 1st and then the

Friday following that Friday July 6th from 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m Dr. Costa is going to be leading a seminar a free seminar orchestrated by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and my friends over at New Covenant Church NYC and that seminar that free seminar in New York City is going to be on the topics of defending the faith in a post -modern society and also the dangers of the impacts of cultural

Marxism on society in the church. Those are the two topics that are going to be addressed on Friday July 6th 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m at the First Baptist Church of New York City a historic church going back to the 1700s at least back to the 1700s perhaps earlier and that is located on the corner of 79th street and Broadway in Manhattan and I'm urging you all who are able to get there especially those who live in New York City and Long Island and Connecticut and New Jersey especially you folks

I'm urging you all to be there Friday July 6th 6 30 p .m

at First Baptist Church of New York City and I'm also urging all of you who can get there no matter where you live if you have the financial resources to get in a train plane or automobile please get there we would love to see you but it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

Tony Costa. It's always a pleasure to be with you it's always a pleasure.

Great and we have two co -hosts today we have first of all my friend who is a very valuable and vital financial supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I'm speaking of my friend

Anthony Uvino who is the founder co -founder of New York Apologetics and it's always a joy to be working with him on various projects for the furtherance of the kingdom and it's great to welcome you back as a co -host

Anthony Uvino. Thanks Chris I appreciate it look forward to the conversation this is going to be great.

Yes and we also have co -hosting the program today a new friend of mine who is cooperating with me on arranging this event coming up on July 6th in New York City with Dr.

Tony Costa Andy Woodard and he is the lead pastor of New Covenant Church NYC and it's great to have you back as a co -host as well

Andy Woodard. Thanks Chris it's great to be back on the program. And if anybody wants to join us our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we are going to be discussing

Islam 101 today and so perhaps there are some of you who are

Muslims and you are too fearful or too embarrassed or whatever the reason is that you would not like to identify yourself

I understand that or if any other reason that you want to ask a question anonymously if it's about a personal and private matter we will welcome that but if it's not about a personal and private matter please give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Well first of all very briefly Dr. Tony Costa if you could tell our listeners for those of them who have not heard of you before tell them about Toronto Baptist Seminary please.

Yes Toronto Baptist Seminary is a reformed Baptist seminary in the city of Toronto and it was founded by the late

Dr. T .T. Shields who was also one of the pastors at the Jarvis Street Baptist Church also in Toronto and so we're a seminary that is we're privately funded and we train men and women in theology and various disciplines in Christian academia and we also train men for the ministry and so we send men out into the pastorate and including missionaries as well and I'm very happy to report that a number of my students that graduated from the seminary are now teaching apologetics and also reaching out to Muslims around the world such as Zaire in Africa I've got another one in in Turkey so it's a wonderful wonderful seminary and we have students come in around the world from the

United States and every known part of the world have come to Toronto Baptist Seminary. Great and the website for anybody listening is tbs .edu

tbs .edu. Anthony Uvino tell our listeners in a summary form something about New York Apologetics.

Well New York Apologetics is a ministry an organization set up to make a defense of the Christian faith on college campuses high schools churches we want to train people to be able to give an answer for the hope that lies within them most importantly with gentleness and respect so we go in and we teach them the evidences for the existence of God obviously in accordance with scripture we can see so many things in the world that we live in that have

God's fingerprints all over them because God created the world so for me it's kind of an easy argument it's not difficult to explain it at all.

Well the website for New York Apologetics for those of you interested in pursuing learning more about that ministry go to NewYorkApologetics .com

NewYorkApologetics .com and the two words New York are spelled out they are not abbreviated

New York N -E -W -Y -O -R -K Apologetics .com. Now Pastor Andy Woodard tell us about this new church plant in Manhattan New Covenant Church NYC.

Hey thanks Chris my name is Andy Woodard I'm the lead pastor founding pastor of New Covenant Church NYC which is a

Reformed Baptist church plant in the Midtown East side of Manhattan. Right now we're just a couple blocks south of the

Empire State Building but anticipating moving to a new location this coming Sunday. If you are in the

New York City or Manhattan area we'd love to have you come but keep a close eye on the website for the address as I'm having that conversation tomorrow hopefully with the prospective new landlord.

Great well oh and the website for New Covenant Church NYC is

NCC .NYC NCC for New Covenant Church dot NYC for New York City.

Dr. Tony Costa you wanted to address a primer on Islam as we are calling it

Islam 101 today. There is still so much confusion amongst

Americans and amongst brothers and sisters in Christ and in fact if somebody sounds like they're washing dishes or whoever it is if you could please or stocking shelves at a grocery store or something if you could please stop so we can have a total silence in the background.

Dr. Costa there's still as I was saying a lot of confusion about Islam not only amongst non -Muslims but we are getting reports that vary widely and contradict each other even from Muslim representatives that we see in the media and varying degrees of commitment and nominalism to that religion so I think even though we have addressed things like this on the program before I think that it is important to revisit them especially since we hear about Islam and Muslims in the news almost every day and so first of all let's start off with something that we should say right off the bat especially since lately we have been hearing things about the the cult known as the nation of Islam in the news with its head current head

Louis Farrakhan. This is a completely different religion as much as Louis Farrakhan and the and the adherents or members of the nation of Islam want to claim that they are

Muslims nothing could be further from the truth this cult in fact is guilty of the the most serious sin that Muslims believe one can commit an impardonable sin known as shirk because the nation of Islam believes that God is a black man and just as Christians believe that Jesus Christ was

God in the flesh the Muslims have a false god in the flesh but that is still a violation of their most serious sin listed amongst the most grievous and wicked sins that Muslims can commit am

I right? Yes you're absolutely correct Chris the nation of Islam or the black

Muslims is definitely a cult of Islam it began in the United States under Wallace Fard and black

Muslims or nation of Islam adherents believe that Wallace Fard was Allah himself in the flesh that he was

God himself in the flesh and the movement really got started with Elijah Muhammad. Elijah Muhammad if you notice his name he uses the name

Elijah because he is the one who is supposed to have pointed to Wallace Fard as Allah in the flesh and also claims the name

Muhammad as he was the main spokesperson if you will the prophet if you will for Wallace Fard and the nation of Islam is virtually a black

KKK it sees white people as white devils and God is black all the prophets were black

Jesus was black Muhammad was black and so they have a very very racist view of white folks and even

Muslims themselves consider them apostates if you remember Malcolm X was a follower of the nation of Islam a very vocal speaker for the nation of Islam and also

Cassius Clay who converted became Muhammad Ali he later left the nation of Islam like Malcolm X did and Malcolm X joined the mainstream

Sunni Islam and later he was killed by adherents of the nation of Islam for doing so so you're absolutely right the nation of Islam is uh it's it's it's uh as un -Islamic as a

Jewish fortune cookie well actually

I have a friend named David Rubin who's a Jewish Christian and I still don't know if he was joking when he said this but he said that his favorite

Chinese restaurant was a Jewish Chinese restaurant called Genghis Cohen but anyway uh

I'll have to one of these days get the truth out of David to see if that was actually a real place um and uh yes so Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali both left the nation of Islam in fact didn't

Elijah Muhammad's son also leave the nation of Islam and go yeah into a convert to Sunniism correct that's correct right well that speaks a lot there um but uh yeah it is really um a bizarre cult and unless I hate to give benefit of the doubt to the nation of Islam but in your comparison to the

KKK I'm not aware even though they might have equal rhetoric that's equally racist and hateful and bigoted and anti -semitic as well uh in fact praising of Hitler as well both both uh the nation of Islam in fact um many of our listeners may be surprised that Elijah Muhammad in the 60s invited at least once it may have been twice or more but at least once he invited uh

George Lincoln Rockwell to speak at their event at Madison Square Garden and George Lincoln Rockwell was the founder of the

American Nazi Party and he had a friendship with uh Elijah Muhammad because they both were separatists and they both believed that the mainstream of American society and media were misleading both blacks and whites into believing that integration was good and proper and and both both sides were separatists and both sides loved

Hitler yeah they're both yeah they're basically like Pilate and Herod becoming friends in order to get rid of Jesus and uh they both worked for the same end they wanted uh they wanted whites only and the other side wanted blacks only and so uh they were basically working for a common interest but uh but the nation of Islam uh did not go to the extent that the

KKK did and actually killing black people and hanging them or killing white people there has been yeah sorry yes they haven't gone to that extent of calling for the death of black of the white people that is but uh there there have been clear uh threats that uh that the white the white man is is eventually doomed oh yeah and and Louis Farrakhan actually very recently said in a speech that whitey is going down you know and he was taking great glee and the thought of white people perishing uh but anyway uh so we we just wanted to make that clear because of the fact that um the nation of Islam has been brought up in the news more frequently than uh normal lately uh because uh i think especially because Fox News has been bringing up the fact that uh no one ever really called

Barack Obama or Jesse Jackson or many of the other uh prominent figures in in uh the civil rights movement of the 21st century uh or uh black activism of the 21st century they very rarely bring them uh or hold them accountable for their friendship with uh with uh

Louis Farrakhan flipped my mind for a minute and they uh in fact they're

Louis Farrakhan has enjoyed a friendship with quite a number of liberal elites which the thing that's really remarkable and crazy about that is that Louis Farrakhan uh shares the

Muslim and Christian and Orthodox Jewish abhorrence to things like homosexuality uh and feminism and other things uh and yet the liberals seem to adore him because he they know that he has the ears of a significant constituency in the black community yes and that is uh that's part and parcel of the whole cultural

Marxist agenda so that uh they're seen as minorities and the the oppressor in this case is the uh white

Anglo -Saxon uh Christian Protestant Christian so anything white Christian Protestant is considered oppressive in uh in the cultural

Marxist paradigm well let's start with our main thesis today uh

Islam 101 and the what are the main points of Islam that our listeners should become aware of and we'll also eventually hopefully have time to get into how

Muslims differ amongst themselves because it is well known uh

I don't think anybody really denies this that Muslims especially in the Middle East where there is uh um

Sharia law in various places and theocracy and Islamic theocracy in various places that Muslims are killing

Muslims more than any other people that they they kill or persecute so obviously there are differences among them and we can get into that as soon as possible but let's start off where you want to start off on the on the main points of Islam well let's first begin by defining our terms the very important the word

Islam is an Arabic word that means to submit or to surrender and therefore

Islam is the religion of submission to Allah and Allah is the

Arabic word that is used for the deity for God Allah literally means the god in Arabic from Alila and Islam is believed to be the religion the original religion the religion of all of God's prophets and Adam is believed to have been the first prophet so Adam is regarded a prophet in Islam and all the biblical prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Jonah, John the

Baptist, Jesus, and the disciples they are all believed to be Muslims and the word

Muslim is an Arabic word that's related to the word Islam in Arabic it means one who submits and Muslims believe that all human beings are virtually born

Muslims so they're really closet Muslims they don't know that they're Muslims because according to the

Quran in chapter 7 we're told there that when Allah God created

Adam he brought forth his progeny all his descendants and they all came before Allah and Allah entered into a covenant with them and the covenant was basically

Allah said am I your lord so he's addressing the sons and daughters of Adam and they we say yes you are we testify that you are lord our lord and then

Allah says remember this for this shall be used against you on the day of judgment and so the Quran sees everyone as Muslim the problem

Muhammad taught was that people are led astray by their parents and so people go off into false religions like Judaism and Christianity and and all other religions and Islam is primarily not a religion of salvation

Islam is a religion of guidance and so to be rightly guided is to submit to Allah and to obey his prophet now the

Muslims believe that God sent Allah sent 124 ,000 prophets to all the people in the world and they all came with the same message basically worship

Allah and submit to him and they believe that that was exactly the same message that Jesus conveyed

Jesus himself was a Muslim prophet and Jesus came with the same message the last prophet

Muslims believe was sent to the world was Muhammad he was born in 570 AD died in 632

AD and Muhammad is called in the Quran the seal of the prophets he is the last of all the prophets and so to become a

Muslim you have to do basically you have to confess the shahada which is the the creedal affirmation that says la ilaha illa illah

Muhammad Rasulullah there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and if you say that confession with sincerity of heart before two or three witnesses you are ipso facto a

Muslim and to be a Muslim you have to believe in five articles of faith I'm just going to quickly enumerate them we can go into them later if you'd like but you have to believe that there's only one god you have to believe in the scriptures you have to believe in the angel you have to believe in the prophets and you have to believe in the last day they also hold to five pillars the first one is shahada which

I just mentioned the creed of Islam there's no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger they also believe that praying five times a day is part of the pillars of Islam fasting during the month of Ramadan which they just recently finished celebrating is mandatory for every

Muslim paying the zakat in Arabic which means alms giving they give alms which is about 2 .5

percent of their income to the cause of Islam which can also include jihad and the last one is the

Hajj the pilgrimage where once in a Muslim's lifetime he or she must go to Mecca in Saudi Arabia to the

Kaaba to fulfill the ceremony the ritual of the pilgrimage running around the Kaaba seven times and doing a number of rituals and so that's basically

Islam in a nutshell now you've brought up an interesting thing and I'm a novice when it comes to this subject even though I have seen the great ones involved in debates with Muslims including our mutual friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and David Wood and you and others but I'm still far from being an expert on this issue but aren't there even uh battles being fought and acts of terrorism being conducted between fundamentalist

Muslim groups over the Kaaba that you just mentioned because one group views it as an idol and it would seem that that would actually be logical for the way

Muslims have a great disdain and in some ways rightly over using images in worship they have been known for destroying

Buddhist and Hindu statuary and idols and so forth when they take over an area but isn't even the

Kaaba something that they disagree on well all Muslims hold the

Kaaba to be sacred because it is the house of Allah it is the first house built by Adam and then subsequently destroyed by and profaned by pagans and then it was rebuilt by Abraham and his son

Ishmael and the Kaaba is considered the most sacred spot on the earth in Mecca it's considered the navel of the earth the center of the earth just like Jews regard

Jerusalem at the center of the world but the point that you raise is a valid one Chris in the sense that Muslims are you there

Chris just want to make sure yes I'm still here yes yes just want to make sure I just pressed the button on my phone just want to make sure um that you make a valid point

Muslims usually refer to Christians as cross worshipers they're the ones who worship the cross um and of course we don't worship the cross although you do find elements of that in Roman Catholicism and in the

Orthodox Church uh but Muslims when they do the Hajj when they circumambulate around the Kaaba seven times they they finish by caressing and kissing the black stone which is on which is on the corner of the

Kaaba and this was a point of discomfort for early Muslims because one one companion of Muhammad Omar when he was doing the

Hajj and going around the Kaaba he looked at the rock and he said I know I know that you're nothing but a plain rock but I saw the messenger of Allah kissing you and therefore

I just I will do the same and so because Muhammad caressed the black stone and kissed it

Muslims when they performed the pilgrimage also do the same and so one thing we need to ask our Muslim friends is how is it that you charge

Christians with worshiping the cross which they do not it's simply a symbol where whereas you caress and kiss a dead black stone and so this was definitely a pagan practice that was done by the

Arabs the pagan Arabs that simply crossed over into Islam and in fact Chris there are four pillars that I mentioned to you four of those pillars were already practiced by the pagans and Muhammad simply incorporated them the prayers five times a day the pilgrimage uh doing uh

Ramadan fasting and also the zakat those four pillars were already practiced long before Muhammad so I'm wrong to think that there is some

Islamic sect that is persecuting or at least threatening terror on others because of the the black stone that they believe had fallen from space correct correct correct all

Muslims regard that as sacred okay how many Muslims that that oppose that practice okay

I don't know where I am getting that maybe I'm the only one it could be the Quran only the

Quranist which is a small group within Islam or they're not violent though almost like the soul no they're they're like the full of scriptura uh point of view they think only the

Quran uh should be uh their authority they should have no hadith no no other literature but the

Quran and so they may be the ones who may object to this practice but overall there is no violence or terrorist acts committed over this okay and uh of course uh their their version of sola scriptura uh is is very problematic whereas the true practice and belief in sola scriptura doesn't even resemble you cannot really have

Islam without the hadith and so on you really correct you really cannot hold to the

Quran alone and be a historic Muslim correct because the

Quran without the hadith is absolutely meaningless that you don't know what's going on in the Quran because it makes references to people's names and places that it doesn't define them it doesn't it doesn't explain them and so what the hadith does is it fills in the blanks it tells us what's going on when this surah or this chapter of the

Quran was revealed and why uh so without the hadith the Quran is basically unintelligible all right we're going to go to our first break and when we return

Anthony Uvino I know that you can only be with us for an hour so I'm going to ask you to ask a number of questions if you have several you know at least uh three of Dr.

Costa because of the fact that you'll be leaving at about uh 4 54 p .m

eastern time so I want to give you the opportunity to ask your questions before you have to leave the program early and anybody else who would like to join us our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away god willing we'll be right back with Dr.

Tony Costa and Islam 101 after these messages from Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

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Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is

Chris Arnes and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is

Dr. Tony Costa he is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary he is also involved in two events coming up in New York next week he is going to be speaking first of all at the

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Medford New York he's going to be speaking there

Sunday morning July 1st and then the following Friday we are going to be having a seminar a free seminar in New York City featuring

Dr. Tony Costa at the First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway a very historic

Baptist Church in fact one of its early pastors in the 18th century John Gano was the personal chaplain to George Washington that shows you how historic this church is but they are allowing us to use their facilities for this event and I am arranging that in cooperation with New Covenant Church NYC and we have today as co -hosts the pastor of that church

New Covenant Church NYC Andy Woodard he is co -hosting along with Anthony Eugenio and Anthony Eugenio is the founder of New York Apologetics but the the conference theme that is coming up there's actually two main sessions on Friday night

July 6th starting at 6 30 p .m. defending the faith in a post -modern society and then followed by the dangers of cultural

Marxism's impact on society in the church to be followed by a question and answer session with the audience that afternoon at 12 there is going to be a lunch a small lunch a gathering of pastors and church leaders at a at a location that is yet to be determined so if you'd like to attend that send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and we will keep you posted as to where that small gathering for lunch will be before the seminar our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question for Tony Costa or if you have a question related to the seminar the free seminar in New York City that you want to ask me off the air or I could answer it on the air as well that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

if you could Anthony Eugenio of New York Apologetics since you are only on with us for the first hour if you could please ask some questions of Dr.

Costa while you have the opportunity Sure well I understand that Muslims deny the deity of Jesus but it seems that even with a cursory reading of the

New Testament Jesus claims to be God the full gospel writers in the first opening paragraphs claim that Jesus is

God Peter Paul James all claim that Jesus is God so do Muslims deny that he made that claim or do they think that he made that claim and it was a mistake?

Muslims deny that Jesus ever made the claim that he was God and in the Quran Jesus is cited as saying worship

Allah my Lord and your Lord and Jesus also warns that whoever associates partners with Allah is guilty of the unpardonable sin and so in the

Quran Jesus is repeatedly pointing out that that the only one to be worshipped is

Allah and the Quran also makes references to the disbelievers are they who say that Christ is that Christ is or Allah is

Christ the son of Mary and there are references also to those who claim that Jesus is the son of God in chapter 9 verse 30 of the

Quran it says the Christians say that Jesus is the son of Allah and then it says these are the sayings of their own mouth and may

Allah curse them so the Quran is very well aware the writer of the Quran or the writers of the

Quran are very well aware of Christian orthodoxy they know the claims of the

Christian church in regards to the Trinity and the deity of Christ and so in the Quran Jesus makes it very very clear that he is nothing more than a man and that the only one that should be worshipped is

Allah. Now when you say that the current scholarship

I think that's what you said but maybe I misheard you but Muslims today at least those who are scholars and apologists know full well what the claims of Christianity are but wouldn't you say that it is clear from history and clear from the

Quran that Muhammad or whoever inspired that book the

Quran whether an individual or Satan himself they did not really know what

Christian doctrine was or is in all points because they have a false description of what the

Trinity is in the Quran? Yes very much so they were aware of the

Christian claim that Jesus was the God -man they were aware of the Trinity but the problem is as you rightly noted is that Muhammad never understood the doctrine of the

Trinity or the Christ because in the Quran the Quran suggests that Christians believe that God that the

Trinity by the way the Quran never uses the word Trinity it uses the word Falafel which in Arabic means three it never defines what it means by three but it definitely doesn't mean the

Trinity and what the Quran says or suggests is that Christians worship

Allah Mary and Jesus and that the Quran also states how can

Allah have a son when he has no consort and so the idea there is that when

Muhammad heard Christians say Jesus was the son of God he took that literally that God fired a son through the

Virgin Mary I think Muhammad got Christians confused with Brigham Young of the Mormon Church that's what the

Mormon Church believed that the father actually sexually had relations with with Mary to bring about Jesus but Muhammad took those claims very seriously and literally and so what you find in the

Quran Chris is that there is a misrepresentation of Christian theology and this raises another question if God did in fact inspire the

Quran wouldn't God know what Christians actually believed so it seems that the

Quran seems to suggest that if it is inspired by God how is it that God who inspired the

Quran got the Trinity wrong and got the belief in the deity and sonship of Christ wrong right oh by the way uh

Anthony Uvino I want to make sure that you have all the questions that you have asked before you leave yeah um

Tony did you say that that Muslims believe that Jesus is the son of Allah no what

I said was that the Quran in chapter 9 verse 30 the Quran charges Christians with making the claim that Jesus is the son of Allah and then the

Quran proceeds to say this is nothing but their own uh their own ideas they they they are simply repeating what the disbelievers used to say and then the

Quran invokes a curse on them it invokes Allah to curse the Christians and also the

Jews incidentally the Jews and the Christians in the Quran are called the people of the book and uh and so because they're people of the book whenever the

Quran refers to the people of the book it's making reference to Jews and Christians so no the

Quran does not say that Jesus is the son of Allah or the son of God it says that Christians make that claim and they are in error okay so when the

Old Testament prophesies about a coming messiah who would be God in the flesh do they see that and deny it how do they they get around those scriptures like isaiah 9 7 it's very interesting question athlete because the title of Jesus in the

Quran is Isa Al -Masih which means Jesus the messiah and then it says

Ibn Maryam the son of Miriam the son of Mary so throughout the Quran Jesus is mentioned 25 times in the

Quran by name incidentally Muhammad has only mentioned four times by name Jesus is 25 times and Moses is 80 times so there's something strange going on there because Muhammad is the last prophet you would think that there would be much more mention of Muhammad than any other prophet but that's beside the point uh

Jesus is called Isa Al -Masih so they do believe uh in opposition to Judaism that is modern -day

Judaism that Jesus is the messiah however when Christians point to the Old Testament like Isaiah 9 6 and Jeremiah 23 6 and Micah 5 2 all those passages referring to God coming in the flesh what the

Muslims do in this case is they actually side with the rabbis and try to disprove the messianic prophecies including

Isaiah 53 by the way they side with the rabbis in trying to refute that those

Old Testament passages are referring to the messiah so they're willing to grant that Jesus is the messiah but then they'll pull the rug under his feet and say but you know the

Old Testament prophecies are irrelevant to his messiahship so you're absolutely right Tony the reason why the early

Christians the Jewish Christians who follow Jesus came to see him as as fully godfully man was because the prophets spoke of him as divine and human but the

Muslims consider the Old Testament to be corrupt uh and the New Testament um insofar as it contradicts the

Quran but uh what you will find people like my good friend Dr. Shabir Ali and others will actually uh join forces with uh the rabbis and actually use their arguments they use the arguments of Jews for Judaism for example that try to debunk so -called what they believe are

Christian misappropriations of Old Testament prophecies about Jesus huh wow that's amazing anything else

Anthony uh no I mean when do they do they think that the

Jews got it wrong when they picked up stones to stone him because him a mere man claimed to be god or do they just say that that was one of the corrupted texts that appears in the

New Testament they will say that it's one of the corrupted texts the gospel of John is in the doghouse when it comes to Islam the way they look at John is they'll say well

John is the latest of all the gospels and so what you find is you find the the evolutionary idea that with Mark you have a very low view of Jesus a low

Christology and then as you go through Mark excuse me Matthew and Luke as Jesus is uh a character begins to evolve to a higher degree and then by the time you get to John he's in the beginning he's the word and the word becomes flesh by that time they'll say that the picture of Jesus has been so changed that he's no longer the lowly

Galilean prophet but Paul the Apostle Paul oh my goodness or they the

Apostle Paul with a vengeance and they will actually tell you that Paul actually invented

Christianity and corrupted the message of Jesus and so what they've done is they've used the old liberal arguments from the 1930s that pits

James against Paul and pits Jesus the the Jewish prophet the the

Jewish movement of Jesus with Paul the the corrupter the one who brought the

Gentiles into the church and and and corrupted the message of Jesus and so you have to understand that Muslims have their hairlines on Paul yeah in fact if you if you ever see

James White's very first debate with a Muslim that I orchestrated on Long Island at Bible Baptist Church of Syosset which has a different name today he debated

Hamza Abdul Malik who was a convert from some kind of Baptist upbringing it may have been nominal

I don't remember but he during the debate whenever the

Pauline epistles were addressed Hamza's answer to them was well

Paul Paul was just messing around with them Corinthians Paul was just messing around like what what do you mean he's just messing around yeah and here's the irony the irony is if you read

Ibn Ishaq who is the first biographer of Muhammad he wrote what's called the life of the prophet

Ibn Ishaq actually spoke favorably of the Apostle Paul and said that he was a disciple of Jesus and that Peter and Paul went to Rome to take the message of Jesus to Rome and so the early

Muslims had no issues with Paul it was the later Muslims who when they started studying the New Testament a little more closely they started to realize that the bulk of the

New Testament at least 13 of its letters almost half of the New Testament is written by the

Apostle Paul and they bought into this old 1930s argument that people that said things like W .C.

Bauer for example who said that James and Paul were at loggerheads with each other and unfortunately this old argument has that's really passe when it comes to 21st century scholarly studies is still held by Muslims that James was faithful to Jesus and Paul was basically the guy who came around and messed everything up you mentioned another thing that jogged something in my memory when you said that the

Quran describes Christians and Jews as people of the book it's another from what

I can remember it's another example of a very serious problem that Muslim apologists have just as they're just as when they are presented with the false definition of the trinity that exists in the

Quran which is supposed to be an inspired text they have a problem with the fact that the

Quran and correct me if I'm wrong the Quran teaches that anything from God cannot be corrupted and yet today they will tell you unashamedly and unhesitatingly that the

New Testament is corrupted so they have they have to explain how that what they once believed was from God the book people of the book how did this book become a corrupted how do they answer that well it's interesting because if you look at the

Quran the Quran never claims that the Bible or the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians has been corrupted textually what it does is the

Quran accuses the Jews not the Christians it accuses the Jews of corrupting the meaning of the text not the text itself now there's a difference

Chris between corrupting the text and corrupting the meaning of the text the

Quran charges the Jews with twisting the words of the Torah not with changing the book itself and so what you find in the

Quran is that it keeps pointing back it says look Jesus received the

Injil the gospel Moses received the Torah the Torah the law David received the which is the psalms and that these are the words of Allah in fact in chapter 5 of the

Quran it says to Christians all people of the gospel out in jail all people of the gospel judged by that which

Allah has revealed in the gospel now the question is how are Christians supposed to judge what

God has revealed in the gospel if the gospel has been corrupted so Allah is directing us to corrupted scriptures which is ludicrous makes no sense so what that tells us

Chris is that when chapter 5 of the Quran makes the claim that Christians are to judge by what God has revealed in the gospel the presumption is that the gospel the

New Testament was still with them now Muhammad dies in 632 do we know what the

New Testament looked like in the times of all in the time of Muhammad absolutely we have Codex Sinaiticus Codex Vaticanus both of them from 325

AD that is over 200 years prior to Muhammad and we when we look at the

Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus the New Testament is virtually the same New Testament we have today with all the references to the deity of Christ his atonement on the cross and so forth and so we've got the

Islamic dilemma here Chris the Quran points us to the Bible and and but then when we go to the

Bible the Bible condemns the message of the Quran because it contradicts the Bible so what are Muslims supposed to do well by the time you get to the turn of the millennium just after 1000

AD one famous one famous Muslim scholar came around and said we cannot trust the writings of the

Jews and the Christians because they have twisted the words with their own hands and it was from that time forward

Chris that we begin to see this wholesale rejection of the Bible as a corrupted text so that means we have to wait 400 years before Muslim scholars began to denigrate the text of the

Bible and call it into question prior to that they respected the Bible they believed that it was

God's Word and so Muslims today will tell you without a blink that Christians and Jews conspired to change the

Bible remove references to Muhammad in the Bible add words like the Son of God into the

Bible put words into the mouth of Jesus and so forth and this conspiracy is is so is so preposterous because what it would mean is all

Jews and Christians around the world would have to gather all the known manuscripts and unearthed manuscripts that have been buried and change them unanimously altogether wholesale but the fact of the matter is

Chris we have manuscripts that differ from each other in hundreds of years apart and they say the same thing there was no wholesale corruption so our

Muslim friends are in a bit of a bind here because history simply does not support their contention and from what you said they even changed their original condemnation of of the scriptures from the twisted meaning to the actual changing of words and deleting of words yes well that's what that that's what they charge uh the

Jews in particular right but but but wrong the Jews but it still is still it's still it still results in a corruption of something from God which supposedly could not happen well this is it that's exactly right the

Quran says no one can change the words of Allah well it's the the New Testament if the gospel and the

Torah is the Word of God uh just like the Quran then how is it that anyone could change the words of Allah here's another question

Chris if God can preserve the Quran why can't God preserve the Bible right if it is his word then why can't he not preserve the

Bible as well right and so what happened to the original gospel and so you get a bit of a

Da Vinci code approach here because the NGO was simply taken up to heaven and and we don't have the original gospel anymore uh and and so again this this is the stuff that that fiction is made of well

Anthony Euvenia we I know that you have to leave us now uh can you please tell us the times when

Dr. Tony Costa will be preaching or speaking at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford Long Island on Sunday July 1st well he'll be doing the uh

Sunday school which begins at 9 45 a .m and then he will be preaching in the service which begins at 11 um also he'll probably be staying for fellowship and we're just going to have him talk as much as possible during that time too so uh come on down to Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford Long Island 9 45 is the uh

Sunday school and 11 a .m begins the uh service well he better not get laryngitis by you overworking him because he's got a an event in New York City that Andy Woodard and I are

Chris we're going to give him a lot of tomato sauce up here to keep his throat nice and smooth yeah you worry about he better not get botulism he better not get botulism from anything you feed him there plenty of good food all right we're going to tell you all about it because you're going to miss it yep well well uh

New York apologetics uh website again is newyorkapologetics .com newyorkapologetics .com

and there is no abbreviation there the words New York are spelled out thank you so much Anthony Euvenia and we look forward to the next time you are a co -host or guest or on Iron Radio thank you again brother and uh

Dr. Costa we look forward to seeing you soon yes likewise thank you Anthony God bless all right we're going to our midway break right now it's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City Florida requires a 12 -minute break between our two major segments so please use this time to write down your questions for Tony Costa on Islam and also write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can properly patronize them and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away God willing we're going to be right back with Tony Costa and more on Islam 101 after these messages from our sponsors

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First of all, as I mentioned earlier, this Sunday, Dr. Tony Costa, who's our guest today, will be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, this

Sunday, July 1st, in their morning Sunday school and worship service. If you want more details, go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net, and you can also call them at 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711. Then, the following Friday, Dr.

Costa will be speaking at a free seminar that is being orchestrated by New Covenant Church, NYC, in Manhattan, and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are collaborating on a very important event, this free New York City seminar, which will be held at the historic

First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway in the

Upper West Side of Manhattan. The sessions include defending the faith in a postmodern society, the dangers of cultural

Marxism's impact on society and the church, and a Q &A with the audience.

That, once again, is Friday, July 6th, 630 to 10 p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City on West 79th and Broadway in Manhattan.

There will also be an intimate gathering of pastors and church leaders with Dr.

Costa over lunch that day at 12 noon at a location that we have yet to determine.

For more details, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And you can also call New Covenant Church NYC at 646 -770 -2282.

646 -770 -2282 or email them at nccnycinfo at gmail .com.

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Then after that we have coming up in August, my friends at Fellowship Conference New England are going to be having their next event in Portland, Maine, and I hope as many of you who live within traveling distance to Maine can get there and attend this conference

August 2nd through the 4th. That's the Fellowship Conference New England, August 2nd through the 4th at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. And the speakers include

Tim Conway, pastor of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas. Pastor Mack Tomlinson who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Jesse Barrington who is also my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from 4 to 6 p .m.

eastern time. Pastor Jesse Barrington is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

And Pastor Nate Pickowitz who is an author and pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

He is my guest this Thursday the 28th of June immediately following Dr.

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Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Dr. Nichols will be on with us for the first half hour and Nate Pickowitz will be on for the remaining 90 minutes.

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Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th, the G3 Conference is being held at the

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Mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions. I will have an exhibitor's booth there, as I have for the last two years.

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Vody Baucom, they include Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. Owen Strand, who is my guest on Wednesday, the 27th of June, Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary is where Owen Strand serves on the faculty.

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Without you guys we would not be here and I thank you so much for appreciating what we do. And now we are returning to our subject at hand,

Islam 101, with our guest Dr. Tony Costa. And Dr.

Costa is Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he's also speaking in New York and we will repeat that information on the two

New York events later on during the remainder of this program. Please send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Andy Woodard, do you have any questions for Dr. Costa before I move on to any of our listener questions?

What would you recommend as a, let's say you're in a cab and you sit up front next to the cab driver like Uber or something and he's a

Muslim, what would you recommend as a good way to go about that conversation with a

Muslim cab driver where you have about 10 minutes to talk? I would, that's a good question

Pastor. I would begin by talking about my testimony, share your testimony with them, the relationship that you have with God.

It's really important to share the fact that you have assurance of your salvation. Many Muslims do not have assurance of their salvation.

There is no savior in Islam, there is no atonement in Islam, and so they're basically on their own.

It's a works -oriented religion and it's based on a merit system that says if your good works that way, your bad works, then

Allah will permit you to enter into Paradise. But outside of that, there is really no assurance of salvation.

What I would also focus in is the relationship that you have with God and the peace that you have with God.

This is very important. The idea of being at peace with God through Jesus Christ and also the relationship that we have to God as father.

In Islam, Allah or God is not the father of anyone.

He's not the father of Jesus Christ, he's not the father of any Muslim. So the idea of God being a father is considered blasphemous in the

Quran. The paradigm in the Quran is that God is the master and that the

Muslim is the slave, and so in Islam you've got a master -slave relationship. So what you want to do is show the loving relationship that you have with God, that you can approach

God as father, but you only do this because of what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross.

Now, of course, you have to realize that we're using the same terminology. We're using words like Jesus, we're using words like God.

You need to keep in mind that to the Muslim, Jesus was only a prophet. He's a Muslim prophet. What you want to do is show that Jesus is much more than that.

So testimonies are very powerful ways of sharing the gospel, and what

I would do is show a real, genuine interest in this person.

Even though you've got 10 minutes in the cab, show genuine concern, because let's face it, Jesus was a friend of sinners and a friend of the marginalized, and so we're called to love those who are outside of our camp.

And so sharing the love of God with them, showing that you have a genuine interest in that person you're speaking to, and just say something like, you know what, it was wonderful to talk to you, and what is your name?

My name is so -and -so, and I will pray for you. And so I think that is a wonderful way to get started.

And if they want to continue conversation, get their name, get their number, have a coffee, meet together for a coffee, or when they're on their break or something.

So this is going to take time. We need to invest time with our Muslim friends. It's not an overnight thing.

It's going to take time, and I can assure you from my own experience that Muslims make the best

Christians. They're the most passionate Christians I've ever met. Yeah, all great advice.

I have a lot of Uber drivers in Carlisle, Pennsylvania here who are from Africa for some reason, and I will start off the conversation, where are you from?

And if they say Carlisle, I'll say, I mean originally. And then

I will say, well, I happen to be a member of Grace Baptist Church here in Carlisle. Are you a member of any kind of faith or religion, etc.?

That's how I start the ball rolling, and I will ultimately include a lot of what

Dr. Costa just said as well. Do you have any follow -up question before we go to the listeners? Yeah, another one would be, so let's just say, hypothetically speaking here, or I have a friend who has this situation.

So let's say there's a student who comes to New York City from a restricted -access country, and he is

Muslim, and he is from that country, so it's illegal for him to convert to Christianity. He has been witnessed to countless times by believers in that country, and he's being connected to a hypothetical church in New York City.

What would you advise as ways to keep the ball rolling with that gospel witness, but also to help him remember the seriousness of his situation where, like, you know, it's illegal for him to convert, and it could risk his life if he were to do that?

Yes, well, many Muslims who hear the gospel and whom God touches and grants repentance to, they count the cost.

They do understand that in Islam, the penalty for apostasy is death, and also over 91 % of honor killings are actually done by Muslims, usually against other

Muslims who convert, or for other reasons, sexual impropriety. So I think we have to be very sensitive here, especially when they're minors, that is, they're under their parents' authority.

But again, we cannot compromise the gospel. To become a Christian is basically to ostracize yourself from the

Islamic community, and also to put yourself under the condemnation of apostasy.

So I don't take this very lightly. At the same time, I don't compromise the gospel. There's a reason why the

Lord Jesus told us that to follow Him meant to take up the cross daily, and people who carried the cross were those who were doomed to die, and they carried their crosses to the place of execution.

And so it's a huge sacrifice for Muslims when they give their lives to Christ, because they know what it means.

And so I think this is where the Church has to come alongside of the new brother or sister in Christ, and do what they can to protect them if necessary, and also be prepared for the fact that they may be kicked out of their own homes for this.

And so it's a very sensitive issue, but at the same time, it's something that we as the

Church have to be prepared to take care of. Anything else,

Andy, before I move on to our listeners? Andy, are you there?

The tractional model of—can you hear me? Now I can. Yeah, yeah. So you're saying that the speaker -sensitive, attractional model of Church is the way to go, then, right?

I'm not a big fan of speaker -sensitive. I think he was saying that as a joke.

Yeah, it's a joke. But it's a segue to what I just need to say, that there is a movement out there, sometimes called

Chrislam, where you have missionaries out in the Muslim world who are telling Muslims to still continue to go to the mosque, continue to still do the five prayers, but to pray to God as Father in the name of Jesus.

And so there's this compromise going on, which I think is unbiblical, and we don't want to be like that.

We don't want to say, look, you're going to become an undercover Christian, just pretend to be a Muslim on the outside. That is not biblical.

That is not the way to go. So we have to keep in mind that God is absolutely sovereign, even in the redemption of his people in the

Muslim world, and also we need to trust him for the provisions necessary to help a new brother or sister in Christ.

Amen. Well, we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who asks, are you familiar with Dr.

James R. White's book, What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran? That's an excellent book, and I do the same.

Yes, I'm familiar with it. I have read it, and I also, every time

I teach a course on Islam, I'm teaching one this year at Toronto Baptist Seminary, I always make Dr.

White's book on the Quran a required reading. Yeah, it's so good that even his harshest critics have complimented the book and really have found it flawless for the most part, even those that have been seriously critical.

Some who have been so critical, I think that they must be on LSD or something, but I've routinely and typically heard, even from his harshest critics, that his book is excellent.

Well, thank you, Tyler. Very well put. Yeah, thank you, Tyler, and keep listening to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and spreading the word in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Oh yeah, and you better, Tyler, in Mastic Beach, you better be there on Friday, July 6th at 6 .30

p .m. at the First Baptist Church in New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway for Dr.

Tony Costa's event there. In fact, you should also, since it's even closer to you, go to Medford to the

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island on Sunday morning, July 1st, but make sure you get to both events, especially since I'm the one running the one in New York City with Andy Woodard, I'm putting more emphasis on that one, and so we hope to see you at both events,

Tyler, from Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. We have Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and Ted says,

I'm struggling to achieve balance in my relationship with Muslim co -workers and friends between not compromising my

Christian witness and not being an over -officious jerk.

Dr. Costa mentioned Ramadan earlier. What some listeners might not realize is that this month -long fast just ended and that there is a special celebration during which

Muslims will feast, and who can blame them after going 30 days without food during the daylight hours in the summer, but I am compromising, but am

I compromising my Christian witness by wishing them, and I don't know if I, I've never seen this phrase before,

I'm not versed in Arabic, but it looks like it says Eid Mubarak.

Yeah, Eid Mubarak. Eid Mubarak, I'm sorry. Eid Mubarak, yeah. Yeah, well, very good point.

I think we have to keep in mind what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9, that I become all things to all people that I may save some of them, and so to the

Jew I become as a Jew, to those without the law I become as one without the law, and so in one sense we become a

Muslim to Muslims without having to compromise the Christian faith. Now, Eid Mubarak is simply a greeting that you give to Muslims when they end the 30 -day fast of Ramadan, and so there's nothing necessarily wrong in greeting them just as much as a

Muslim says Merry Christmas to you during the Christmas season. Although Muslims are forbidden from celebrating

Christmas, they generally don't have a problem wishing their Christian neighbors a

Merry Christmas, and so usually what you do at the end of Ramadan, there's usually, the way they break the fast is they also, there's a tradition of serving dates, and so what a friend of mine used to do at a ministry to Muslims up here in Canada is at the end of Ramadan he would purchase some dates at a local grocery store and he would visit his

Muslim neighbors and present it to them and he would use that as an opportunity to share his faith with them and to share the gospel.

So there's nothing compromising by wishing them a happy Eid. Now let me ask you a question about that.

Knowing, for instance, the origins of Kwanzaa, knowing that the man who invented this false holiday was a vehement hater of white people and Jesus Christ and Christianity, I would never say to anyone happy Kwanzaa.

Now of course if I were to say happy Kwanzaa to anybody, it would actually, I would have to find the five white liberals that actually celebrate

Kwanzaa. I've never met a black person in my life that celebrates Kwanzaa. Right, in that case

I wouldn't greet them with happy Kwanzaa for the reasons you just enumerated, that it's not really a religion and that it was started by a psychopath.

Yeah, but what I mean is, is there something inherent to the

Muslim festival that you mentioned or that a listener mentioned that would make it a compromise for a

Christian to bring it up favorably? I don't think it's a compromise.

For instance, if there was a day celebrating the origins or the existence of the

Qur 'an, I would never wish someone a happy Qur 'an day, etc.,

if there was such a day. So I don't know what this feast entails. Well, it's basically, it's just, it's really a feast of breaking the fast.

And yes, during Ramadan, it celebrates the sending down of the Qur 'an.

That's the 30 -day month where they believe the Qur 'an was sent down. But Eid marks the break of the fast, and they celebrate that with a lot of goodies and food and dates and so forth.

And so it's really a standard greeting that is said during the break of the fast.

So what I'm saying is, there's nothing wrong with making that greeting, but I would take advantage of it, just as Paul used the altar to the unknown

God in Acts 17 as a stepping stone to reach out to the

Athenians that he was preaching to. And so if I were to say that greeting to my Muslim friends,

I would say something like, can you tell me a little bit more about what

Ramadan is all about? And then you could start talking about your faith and entering into a dialogue.

And so I see it as a great opportunity to break the ice and start a conversation going with our

Muslim neighbors. Oh yeah, I just remembered the people, if I were to wish anyone a happy Kwanzaa, it would be the staff at the marketing department of McDonald's.

But we are going to our final break right now.

And if anybody wants to join us, now is the time to do so or forever hold your peace. We do have a few of you still waiting to have your questions asked and answered.

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We are now in our last 20 minutes of our discussion today with Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

We are discussing Islam 101. We have as our co -host

Andy Woodard, pastor of New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan, and if you'd like to join us, our email is chrisaronson at gmail .com,

chrisaronson at gmail .com. And if you could go into a little bit more about how a person in the understanding of the

Islamic religion is saved, and then before we go off the air, before we run out of time,

I also want you to give us some kind of an understanding of why some of the major sects of Islam, even those that are considered fundamentalist

Muslims, are killing each other. What are the differences that would drive them to that serious level of terrorism and hatred and murder?

In terms of Muslims and how Muslims are saved, Muslims believe that the idea here is that they have to merit their way into paradise.

And the idea is that your good works should outweigh your bad works.

And so in the Quran, the last day is described as a day in which everyone's deeds will be measured on a scale.

And if your good works outweigh your bad works, you enter paradise. If it doesn't, you go to hell.

So the Muslims also do believe in eternal punishment in hell. However, the issue in Islam is that there really is no certainty about salvation.

There is no real assurance. There is a hadith that says that a person may live, a Muslim may live a moral life, and then they'll come near to death, and then

Allah's decree or verdict will fall, and they will become an unbeliever and be sent into hell, and then vice versa.

Someone can live a very reprehensible life, and then they come to death's door, and then Allah's decree falls, and they become a believer.

So Muslims do believe in the concept of predestination, but it's not based on any given purpose.

It's simply Allah's will. Allah's will in the Quran is very clear. Allah's whim.

I'm sorry? Sounds like Allah's whim. Correct, correct.

Yeah, there's no set purpose. It's just whatever Allah thinks and does is all that matters. But there is one guarantee in the

Quran that assures Muslims that they will have immediate entrance into paradise, and that is in chapter 9 of the

Quran, verse 111, where it says that those who slay and are slain in the way of Allah, to them we have promised the gardens.

And so the one true way into paradise is if a Muslim dies in the act of jihad as a shaheed, which is a martyr.

In the Quran it says, So that is the one guarantee outside of the day of judgment where a

Muslim does have assurance of salvation if he dies for Allah and jihad. In regards to your second question that you were asking, can you just repeat that again,

Chris? The second question was about... Because of the fact that there are Sunnis, there are

Shias, there are different kinds of Muslims that are fundamentalists, and yet they kill each other.

And they seem to be believing in so many of the same things. And then also, a group that has become very popular, even though it's a minority group, the reason why it's become very known is because they very often are the very pundits or media representatives that we see on Fox News and other places, the people who are in the

Ahmadiyya, who are the... They are the only group that I know of that is theologically...

has a basis for them being peaceful. Right, right. And they are persecuted by all of them, all of the other

Muslims. Oh yes, very much so. The reason for that is because they regard each other as apostates.

And so Sunnis regard Shia as apostate, the Shia regard the Sunnis as apostate, and they both regard the

Ahmadiyya as apostate. But there's also other groups, the Yazidis, for example. ISIS had targeted the

Yazidis, which is a small Islamic group in Iraq. And also we have the

Ismailis and other groups. The Baha 'i faith is also something that came out of the Muslim faith, but it has some new additional features.

The reason why they will fight each other, Chris, is because the Quran calls on Muslims to wage jihad against the hypocrites.

And the hypocrites are those in the Islamic community that have either apostatized in certain theological aspects, or they are claiming to be

Muslims, but they are not actually practicing Islam. And so the Quran does call on Muslims to wage jihad against those who are mere professors of faith, but do not actually practice their faith.

And that is why many Muslims die under Islamic terrorism, because many of them that die are considered to be apostates and hypocrites.

And so that's the main reason. The reason they will fight is because they regard the other to not be truly

Muslim, but are actual apostates. Now I know that one of the reasons I have heard—well,

I shouldn't say I know, because you've already corrected me on some of my erroneous thoughts. But I have heard,

I believe, that one major group, I believe it may be the Sunnis who are accusing the

Shias of some kind of a mysticism. Perhaps you could explain further what I'm talking about. No, it's actually the

Sufis. They accuse the Sufis of mysticism. The Sufi Islam is basically—it's almost like a new age version of Islam.

It is based on immediate mystical experience with Allah. And, of course, we have the famous dancers that are associated with Shia Islam, dervishes, as they're called.

And they go into this ecstasy, almost like a Pentecostalism, charismatic, euphoric ecstasy, where they have union with Allah.

And they were condemned. They're condemned by Sunni Islam, in particular, because of that mystical idea.

And because some of their founders have made some statements that verge on shirk.

So one of their famous leaders once made the claim that he was al -Haqq. And al -Haqq, in Arabic, means the truth.

And so this leader among the Sufis claimed to be the truth, and he was killed by the

Sunnis, because they claimed that that was one of the 99 names of Allah that he had appropriated to himself.

Interestingly enough, our Lord, in John 14, 6, also claimed to be the truth, and the way, and the life.

So why is there so much animosity and tension and hatred between Sunnis, not

Sufis, but Sunnis and Shia? Well, Sunnis are 85 % of the world's

Muslims. They're the dominant denomination, if you will, in the Islamic world. Shias are about 15%.

The reason why is it's over the question of succession of Muhammad's leadership.

So before Muhammad died, the Shias claimed that his cousin and son -in -law,

Ali, was to be the rightful successor. He was to be the rightful leader of the Muslim empire.

But there was another group who comprised of the Sunnis who said, Muhammad had designated that his close companions were to lead the

Islamic empire. So you have people like Abu Bakr, and Umar, and Uthman, and also

Ali was counted among them. But the Shia, the word Shia in Arabic means a party, the party, the party of Ali.

The Shia argued that, no, it should be the family of the Prophet. The family of the Prophet should be the rightful successor.

And about 20 years into Islam, after Muhammad's death, about 20 years later, there was a faction between the

Sunnis and the Shias. They fought very bitterly over this. And Ali's grandson,

Hussein, was killed by the Sunnis. The Shias blame Aisha, the youngest wife of Muhammad, for this split.

There was a lot of bad blood between Aisha and Ali. And that began to materialize later on in Islamic history, when the party of Ali wanted

Ali alone to be the rightful heir to Muhammad. So it really comes down to a question of succession.

And also, the Shias do hold to some different views that the

Sunnis hold to. They have their own hadith. The Sunnis have their own hadith. And so there's some differences as well in how they worship.

And going back to the Ahmadiyya, they believe that their Messiah has already come, correct?

And that's one of the reasons that they are viewed as heretics, apostates, and that they truly back up their reasons for being peaceful, because they say their

Messiah who returned abolished all violence that is recorded in the

Quran. Well, yes, in the 19th century, middle of the 19th century,

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an Indian born Muslim. And he claimed to be not just the

Messiah. You have to understand as well, Chris, that he claimed to be the second coming of Jesus Christ.

They're not looking for the second coming of Jesus Christ. They believe that he has come in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. And also, he claimed to be the

Mahdi. He claimed to be the Messiah that the Jews are looking for. In other words, he claimed to be the promised deliverer of all the world's religions.

He is also the Buddhist Maitreya, Lord Maitreya that the Buddhists are waiting for. And so the same claim that the

Baha 'is make about Bahá 'u'lláh, that he is the Messiah, the second coming of Jesus, the

Ahmadiyyas make the exact same claim for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. And it's interesting, when

I had lunch with an imam in the Ahmadiyya, or Ahmadiyya, or however you pronounce that sect's name.

Ahmadiyya. Okay, when I was invited to lunch at an

Indian restaurant by an imam, he was saddened and taken aback that I believed he, unless he repented and turned to Christ as his only hope for eternal life, his only

God, and his trust alone in the finished work of Christ on the cross,

I told him that if he did not do that, he would be going to hell. I said it in a very calm and loving way and compassionate way, but I told him that, and he was...

Did you say it with a smile? No, I don't think I was smiling. But he was saddened by that and taken aback, because he did not view me as someone who was going to hell.

So I started to think that this must be also a universalist group of some kind, or a pluralistic one at the least.

Well, we have to be careful here, because they do hold to the Qur 'an, they do believe in hell as well, in eternal punishment.

Oh, they do. Their motto is love for all, hatred for none. That is their motto.

But they do believe people are going to hell. Oh yes, absolutely. Oh, okay. Even in the Qur 'an. The Qur 'an mentions hell, and the

Hadith also mentions hell. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says some very nasty things about Jesus in his writings.

We have his books translated into English, and he said some very nasty things about Jesus.

And so when Muslims talk about Jesus, they usually speak about Jesus as a way to reach out to Christians, and their goal is to convert them to the

Ahmadiyya movement. That is their ultimate goal. They want you to recognize Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as the second coming of Jesus.

He is the promised deliverer, and therefore you should believe in him. Now why did this imam tell me he believed

I would go to heaven? Well, I'm not sure why he would tell you that, but they do hold to the

Qur 'an, they do believe in the Qur 'an. There's also a view that some Muslims hold,

Chris, that everyone who dies goes into the fire, and that some of them will be there only temporarily.

So you almost have a quasi -purgatorial view here of hell amongst the Muslims, that every

Muslim will taste the fire, and then eventually they will come out of it. So some

Muslims will hold to this view, others will not. Okay, interesting. Um, we have

RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, in the countries of the earth where Muslims are most populated, which countries have the specific sects that you mentioned?

Like, for instance, in Saudi Arabia, I believe that the largest sect of Muslims, if not the exclusive one, are the

Sunnis, and therefore I'm wondering what are the other countries that are dominated by Muslims, which of the groups are the dominant ones?

Well, Saudi Arabia is predominantly, if not completely,

Sunni. There are some Shias, but they're usually very secretive, because they know the position of the Sunnis against them.

So the Shias will go there and do the Hajj pilgrimage, but many of them do it undercover, if you will, pretending to be

Sunnis, but they're not, they're actually Shia. So Saudi Arabia is pretty much Sunni.

Pakistan is predominantly Sunni. Where you have a mixture of Sunni and Shia, you'll find them in Iraq.

That's why you notice there's been a lot of attacks back and forth in Iraq between Sunnis and Shias. There's also,

Lebanon is predominantly Shia, but there are some Sunnis there as well. Same thing with Syria, there are some Sunnis and some

Shias there as well. So outside of Saudi Arabia, Indonesia is predominantly

Sunni. Malaysia is predominantly Sunni. But in these other countries, like Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, you will find a mixture.

But the Sunnis are usually the minority in Iran.

Iran is predominantly a Shia Islamic Republic. Is that the largest nation in the world where the

Shia would be predominant? Correct, correct. Lebanon would probably be a close second, but Iran is definitely, it's run by the

Islamic Republic, which is Shia, by the Ayatollahs. Okay, we have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, is

Shiite Muslim just another way of saying Shia, or is it a different group? The same thing.

It's the same thing. Okay, thank you, CJ. And by the way, RJ and CJ, since you're both in New York, you better be in New York City on Friday, July 6, 6 .30

p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City in the corner of 79th and Broadway to see and hear

Dr. Kosta speak there. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, in your average mosque in the

United States, are Muslims who are members of those mosques typically ecumenical, meaning that they are both coming from Sunni and Shia and other groups gathering under one mosque, or do you typically have separate mosques for each of those sects here in the

United States? They're separate mosques, definitely separate mosques. So you'll have

Sunni mosques, Shia mosques, Ahmadiyya mosques. So no, they don't have ecumenical meetings.

If you look in Iraq, if you want to see what happens, look at what happens in Iraq when Sunnis and Shias go at it.

But no, they're separate. Well, I want you now, Dr. Kosta, to summarize in about two minutes what you most want our listeners to remember today before we go off the air.

Well, I want our listeners to remember, particularly the Christian ones, that we have a duty to our

Muslim neighbors, whether we like it or not. Muslims are coming to North America, into the

West, and they're coming in droves. And we should not ignore that Islam is both religious and political at the same time.

It's not like Christianity, which regards the separation of church and state. Islam sees everything as one.

And so we need to understand the mindset that Muslims believe, that they are ultimately accountable to Sharia law, which is the

Islamic law. We must not be ignorant of that. And that there is an element of jihad in there that is attacking the

West and attacking Judaism and Christianity. So what I want us to realize is that we need to love our

Muslim neighbors. I take the word Islam to mean I sincerely love all Muslims. And so I think that we have to think very clearly and learn about Islam, become educated about Islam, so we can better communicate the

Gospel with our Muslim friends. And we need to remember that we have to share the

Gospel with our Muslim friends. Are they enemies of the Gospel? Yes, so is every unbelieving person in the world.

But I believe God is bringing them to the West, in one sense. The mission field is outside our door, and therefore it behooves the

Church of Jesus Christ to take the life -giving Gospel to these people. And so when you see a

Muslim person in your neighborhood, the first reaction should not be a reaction of fear. Our reaction should be,

Lord, show me some way or show somehow some way that that Muslim can hear the

Gospel and come to Christ. I think that is a much better approach. Yeah, in fact, when I had two debates in the heart of New York City in Queens between Dr.

James R. White and Muslim Imams, the majority, the vast majority, 95 % of those events that were in a church that held a thousand people and they were standing room only, the vast majority were

Muslims, and many of them you could tell were the stricter sect of Islam or from the stricter sect because many of the women were wearing burqas with only slits for eyes and so on.

And those people were extremely peaceful. There was no eruption of anger or violence.

So I just wanted to let people know that to further bolster what you were saying. And I want to make sure that our listeners know about, once again, about the event that you are going to be speaking at.

That's Friday, July 1st. I'm sorry, Friday, July 6th at 6 30 p .m.

at First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway. And Pastor Andy Woodard, if you could give your contact information one more time for our listeners to contact you.

Yeah, my personal email address is pastorandy .nyc .gmail .com

and I can be reached by phone at 646 -770 -2282.

That is pastorandy .nyc .gmail .com and 646 -770 -2282.

Yeah, so we hope to see you there, all of you, who are capable of being there on Friday, July 6th, 6 30 p .m.

at the First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway, featuring Dr. Tony Costa on defending the faith in a post -modern society and on the dangers of cultural

Marxism in the society and the church. And you can also email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com

if you want more details. I want to thank you so much, Dr. Costa. I want to thank you, Andy Woodard, once again, for being my co -host today.

I want to thank all of you who listened, especially those who wrote in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater