The Swiss Minaret Ban, Religious Freedom, and Calls

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.
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It's been almost two weeks. We did sneak a second dividing line in Just sort of keep y 'all happy, but it's been a while and I've been looking forward to getting back
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I'm not really big on being gone for long periods of time somewhat of a homebody myself
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So it is good to be back with you on the program this morning including for those who are cold and shivering and the other
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You got it got a flannel shirt on a second shirt and you're cold and shivering that's It's like coming to an ice cave over here.
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Come on Well, it has the heat turned on on this side of the offices
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Yet this year. No, of course not here for yeah I don't run three years now, and I don't think it's ever turned on on this side.
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No, I mean I'm work I mean, I've never I don't know if ever switched. I don't think ever switch to the heat to find out
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I'm sort of afraid of just blow up anyways, so No, there's there's no need with all those computers
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That's right over there. Yeah, there's those two computers in there produce all the heat I need This is a desert for crying out loud, you know, so who cares big down the 60s
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Maybe even the upper 50 you're like people that move to the desert and then plant giant. No, no I'm not because do
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I have one you know, you don't be you what? Okay, you want fruit you're like them in that you want it freezing cold here.
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It's a desert No, well, then why then why is it like 40 something this morning?
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Because it's a desert the point is we're supposed to have heaters, you know, everybody we have them to be used
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No, we use all of our electrical stuff during the summer. Mr. Freeze.
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There you go. So anyway, I Like it this way. That's just how it is.
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The ladies in the family aren't Well, but that you're joining with them, okay, well whatever you want and whatever you want to do there
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Today on the program I wanted to comment about something that actually took place a few weeks ago
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And I'm just now sort of catching up with it It was the
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You know, we heard a lot about it. Well, I don't know if you did I did But it was the
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Swiss minaret ban the nation of Switzerland had a vote and They voted by a fairly wide margin to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland now
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Some people have looked at that and said ah Striking back for freedom or something like that, which makes no sense to me at all because they did not ban the building of mosques they just banned building minarets and They did so if you look at the advertisements that were used
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Very clearly it was a I'm looking at one right now. It has the Swiss you know the the white cross the red background and then it's got these minarets coming out of it that look like swords or missiles or something like that and In the foreground is this this woman in a in in the full niqab all you can see her eyes and It was an anti -muslim vote there's just there's just no question about that and They can do this because they have a rather interesting form of government there where even though Their Supreme Court in essence had already ruled on this they can override that by these these votes, which is
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What they did? now Many people have spoken out on this subject and Obviously from my perspective, here's here's what needs to be said at least from a
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Christian perspective When a government Takes away religious freedom from one religion
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Sometimes people in other religions go Yay Not realizing that that same government can then turn around and using that as precedent take your freedoms away, too and so I have as I've gotten older become considerably less trusting about governmental agencies and the intentions of those in power especially in Secular societies and Switzerland has become a thoroughly
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Secular society we would like to think that it's given its Christian history That there would be strong Christian roots and so on so forth that the fact the matter is
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When we look at Europe as a whole and Switzerland is just one example of this We see what secularism is doing and So a secular society has decided to ban a particular regional religious symbol from being built
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Now I was unaware of this, but there's a grand total of four minarets in all of Switzerland That's I think something around One every 4 ,000 square miles or something like that.
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It's just it's just there's aren't that many of them this was an anti -islam statement and as such was a curbing of religious liberties and so on and so forth and I get really nervous when governments decide to start doing things like because they're they're not promoting
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Christianity They're they're not saying well. We're Christians, so we're gonna stand against Islam No, this is a secular government a secular people saying we don't want any of this
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It's interesting this fits in with something else. I'm I want to get to they may get today may not depends on the phone calls
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We already have one one caller online And that was I was listening to the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley, and he was reviewing a debate that took place
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And this was the debate during which Richard Dawkins declined the invitation from William Lane Craig to debate and he did so by basically saying
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I I will not debate creationists and I will not debate people who are professional debaters and He says
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I'm busy Now of course Richard Dawkins is that a doubt one of the most? Arrogant condescending a non self -reflective men in the
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Western world today at least who has a Public platform upon which to demonstrate his complete inability to see how arrogant and brutish he really is
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He is worshipped by his adoring followers, which is only I think increased his his arrogance and is his hubris
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Atheists do worship all you have to do is talk to an atheist about Richard Dawkins or talk to an atheist about Richard Dawkins books
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And you will discover that the title of the very thesis of the debate They did and that is is the new atheism the new fundamentalism is so self -obviously true
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That it is so self -evidently true that it is amazing that According to the vote of the audience the the
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Christians lost of course of course majority of the people there were atheists So be that as it may the point is that in that particular debate
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Both sides agreed to the one thing that's really bad to be as a fundamentalist including a fundamentalist Christian a
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Jerry Falwell a creationist Anyone like that that that's bad, and those the only type of people that the
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Richard Dawkins will debate That's funny Richard Dawkins has admitted that religious liberals make no sense, but they're the only people who'll debate
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Because he knows that they don't really actually believe anything So he'll debate them all wants and will always look good because they don't really have a foundation upon which to stand and Given his abject ignorance of biblical history biblical languages theology philosophy and things like that he wouldn't he's he's he's
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Smart enough to not to put himself in a situation where someone would be able to just make him look as foolish as he really
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Is in those areas? But you just you just simply cannot question this man in many areas
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He is he is a religious leader Richard Dawkins is is one of the most prominent
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Religious leaders in the world today, and if you can't see how atheism is religious in its nature
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How it is it provides an ultimate? Authority it provides a system a worldview if you can't see that then you are absolutely self -deceived and blind beyond all questions so anyway going back to the issue of what went on Switzerland One of the things that hasn't pointed out is that there has been a worldwide hue and cry on The part of Well Muslims obviously about the
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Swiss minaret ban but there is a little bit of a
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Question that I would like to raise about that and and that is how can people in Saudi Arabia?
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complain about what the Swiss did Because you can't build a
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Christian Church there. You can't put up a cross there in In many
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Muslim lands That that just simply isn't going to happen and so I asked a
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Muslim scholar a man I have a lot of respect for That very question and it was interesting his response basically was well,
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Saudi Arabia does not advertise itself as being As providing that kind of religious liberty
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Switzerland does So the reason for complaint against Switzerland is that they claim to foster religious liberty
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But they're obviously acting against their principles. The Saudis are being consistent with their principles that doesn't really provide a whole lot of Solace For those in the
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West because what it's saying is Saudi Arabia is religiously intolerant and open about it
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The Swiss are religiously intolerant and they're just not as open as they need to be about it That makes it right no, of course, it doesn't make it right, but that seems to be what's being said and and that in Essence what we have here is well you in the
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West talk about religious freedom So you need to grant that religious freedom to Muslims up until the point where we gain majority
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And then we will take away all of your religious rights and only give ourselves religious rights Because that's what
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Sharia law requires and I look at that and and I go so We should be consistent in giving religious liberty to you so that you can promote your views and Your views demand that you eventually get rid of the very religious liberties that you're demanding from us we can't demand them in response and The answer would be no you cannot and so there you go how
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Then you know, what what what's the answer it? I don't think it is in banning minarets
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All that does is make people angry. It doesn't ban the mosque That you can build where you can still preach
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Sharia law I Have said many times. I don't think that secularism can stand up against a concerted
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United Muslim assault Whether there can be a concerted
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United Muslim assault is the question Muslims don't get along with themselves very well and While they might unite temporarily against the the the coffers the reality is that Very quickly they turn against each other as well.
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The vast majority of Islamic violence in the world is against Muslims. Oh Sure, they love persecuting
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Christians and everybody else too, but the vast majority of Islamic violence in the world is against fellow
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Muslims It's primarily Muslims that are dying in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Iraq and they are primarily dying at the hands of Muslims Not Americans or anybody else when massive car bombs go off In the heart of Iraq someplace.
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It's primarily Muslims that are dying and that's considered okay, if you can take a few
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Americans along with in essence and so But when it comes to secularism and and Islam You know what we're seeing in Switzerland was a you know, there's some prejudice.
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There's some racial racism there. There's no question about those things But the secular political correctness
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Just doesn't know what to do it. It lives in fear The that's why these secular countries will limit the rights and and abilities of Christians to speak out on moral issues
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But they won't do that for Muslims because they're afraid of the Muslims. They know the Christians aren't gonna kill them They know the Christians aren't gonna, you know engage in suicide bombing, but they are afraid the
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Muslims will because there is Well thousands of examples of it having happened in the not -too -distant past like today and yesterday and last week and so on so forth and So these secular governments having abandoned their
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Christian heritage in Europe really have No foundation other than well the current majority vote upon which to decide to to do anything and We're heading that way very very very quickly ourselves that that move toward Europe has accelerated rapidly
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Over the say the past 18 months or so approximately and it is frightening to likewise here the
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Rhetoric coming out of the Copenhagen conference right now on the myth of global warming. It is a myth
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It is a leftist political ploy. Nothing more than that, but And the evidence of that has been known for a very very long time
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I knew that in seminary for crying out loud but It's it's even more so known today
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But the the things that are being said the anti life things that are being said by various people at this at this
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Conference once again illustrates what happens when you abandon a Christian worldview You have to have a worldview whether it's a a well -formed worldview or consistent worldview
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These people have a worldview and it is informed by these issues and we wonder why they're willing to do radical things to an essence
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By law beat us back to the Stone Age Because we're bad because we're we're hurting mother earth.
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I mean you if you want to see religious fundamentalism look at Al Gore I mean, I mean there is religious fundamentalism on on the level of Of the
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King James only us it really is I mean the King James only us will ignore the most obvious facts right before their faces and We've documented over and over again.
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So Al Gore in the exact same way and for the exact same purpose It's it's to maintain their ultimate religious authority and for Al Gore it is his campaign to save Mother Earth this is their religion, this is what orders all their priorities it gives their life meaning and It is it is right there
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Right in front of us. It is truly an amazing thing to to observe so I Want to comment on that?
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it is It's sad for me to see people
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Who are you know, just rah -rah -rah when when something like the minaret band takes place
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Wow, we showed them Muslims What showed him what? What what does that accomplish if you if you don't the fundamental difference between the vision of Islam and the vision of Christianity That do not you know people get all and and this is what the atheists are saying in fact
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In fact, the new atheists are saying this is why they have become so aggressive and why they have spoken up is because of The fact they say look
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Christians and Muslims both Have a very similar vision for the future where their religion reigns supreme and it is part and parcel of Christian theology that Jesus Christ will return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and he will rule and reign over all of the earth.
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There will not be a vote on the subject The the UN will not be able to veto the coming of Christ Now these human institutions will have no authority in the face of the
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Creator Himself and So what is said is look that they both they all they're all saying the same thing all these monotheistic world religions say the same thing their religion is going to win out at the end and So, you know, there's really no difference between them.
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Ah, but there is We do need to recognize the similarities the
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Muslim believes that Sharia the establishment of Sharia, which Sadly is basically 7th century
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Arabian law and I saw some very disturbing pictures this morning once again of the application of Sharia in a land where a man convicted of adultery and of course convicted by what means was stoned and Stoning as it's done in those lands is is a horrible thing to see
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Where they're put into a hole and and buried up to their waist so they make an easy non -moving target and then you stand around and and bludgeoned them to death with rocks is how it works and That that law however is what
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Islam is wedded to at least Sunni Islam is wedded to as is Shia Islam and To establish that is to honor
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God and to bring peace and prosperity the world Actually, it's to drag the world backwards a long long long long long long ways
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But still that's that's that's what's supposed to be going on and people say see how is that different from Jesus?
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Returning and establishing his rule of the world and everything else Well, it's it's real simple.
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Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that is true in the judgment that's going to be dividing the people between those who had submitted to The rulership of Christ and those who had remained a rebellion and that's going to speak to their eternal state but most importantly
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When you look at the assertion that Jesus will rule and reign, how does how does
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Jesus rule and reign? We believe the kingdom of God already exists on this earth
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In the hearts and minds of those people who are submitted to the rulership of Christ It is a matter of the heart.
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It is a matter of the entire being of the person submitting the Lordship of Christ and As such it cannot be accomplished through legislative action
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It cannot be accomplished through Christians becoming the majority of a nation if anything of Europe's history has taught us anything
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It is having a majority of people who say they are Christians does not produce Christianity.
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It has never produced Christianity It will produce Mutations of Christianity but it will never produce
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Christianity because Christianity is first and foremost a Work of the
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Spirit of God by the Word of God in the heart of undeserving sinners and so It is the means of propagation of the universal nature of Christianity Versus that of Islam that is so completely different The only way that a person becomes a
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Christian is not by yelling out the Shahada in Arabic and And then there's no change of the heart there's no change of life outside of the external
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Bowing to Elements of Sharia, I Mean there is so much nominalism
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You know, I was reading this article that was pointing out all the bad things about Switzerland. I Forgot to mention that let me just read this.
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This is again a Muslim cleric Apart from the notoriety of Swiss banks and they really went after the
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Swiss banks because remember from Sharia perspective interest on stuff It's evil. And so they see that as a very evil thing
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The Swiss do have their own unique set of problems as well a particularly troubling issue is the preponderance of alcoholics amongst with youth a
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Survey conducted by government agents revealed almost 50 % of 13 year olds in Switzerland had consumed alcohol in the month before The representative survey was made another survey revealed that 14 % of 13 year olds get drunk at least once a month
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Switzerland also has one of the highest suicide rates per capita in the Western world Especially amongst young teenagers and the elderly and a very serious drug problem
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Not only is it a direct transit country for the export of cocaine heroin and other synthetics It also has a healthy domestic cannabis cultivation and one of the highest rates of drug offenses in the world a staggering 50 % of the population
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Contrasts with America which has an average almost 10 times less that of than that of Switzerland Those are all very interesting things.
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I don't question them. That's what secularism does There's no no question about that at all. But what does
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Islam do when it takes over a nation? We see today in Pakistan the Taliban blowing up schools for girls
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The the suppression of all forms of freedom It's pretty ugly very very ugly secularism demeans human life
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But Islam drags human life back to the 7th century. So which one's worse?
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Well, it depends I guess The point is that You cannot buy mere externalism
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Change a people that the Muslim lands are filled with nominal Muslims and any meaningful
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Muslim Scholar will admit that That there are so many people in Muslim lands that say the prayers they they go to the masjid
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They would call themselves Muslims. They would take up arms in defense of Islam but Islam has no impact upon their daily existence just as any
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Form of governmentally imposed Christianity never changed a single heart or a single mind in the history of the world either and That says a lot about The formal church that attempted to do that called
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Roman Catholicism So just some thoughts 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number and our lines are full
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So we'll try to start working at them and talk with Harold. Hi Harold Yes, sir, hi
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I know that you have an understanding of the new Darwinistic model of evolution and that it's one of the greatest
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Objections against the gospel today because of course, you know, according to new Darwinism there was no first man who plunged the human race into sin, but So basically
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I'm just asking you What wisdom you might have for answering a person who says that he cannot believe in the biblical meta -narrative, you know
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Ten and salvation well because of its apparent contradiction of current science well, there are a number of options at that point
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I'm not certain that the the most direct route that would immediately suggest itself is necessarily the best route simply because that kind of an objection
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Really shows a non -reflection on the part of the individual in regards to examining the many
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Problems that exist with modern neo -darwinian micro -mutational evolutionary theory
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The the fact that there are many many people from many many perspectives that are questioning
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The reality of this kind of theory in light of so much evidence so much scientific evidence that it has really just been exploding over the past number of decades in regards to Cellular biology the the complexity of life that Darwin could never have even begun to have a guest at When he created his his theories and so there
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I think there needs to be rather than just a sudden flood of Facts and issues that can be raised in regards to darwinism.
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I think there needs to be an attempt made to begin a self -reflective phase in the person's life and at the same time
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Tie Into the real Apologetic connection that we have with anyone and that is from the
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Christian perspective. We are convinced We believe that the person to whom we are speaking is Created in the image of God and that to believe what they are believing
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Specifically about the non -existence of the creator and their own non created state in the sense of created in a special way
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That That is involving the expenditure of energy it involves the suppression of a truth that they already know
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I am convinced that we have to Operate on a biblical paradigm in regards to the nature of man.
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And so you're dealing with a person man or woman Who more or less?
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purposefully more or less consciously is Suppressing the knowledge of God and this objection is a part of that suppression and By the way, it is an immoral act.
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It is not an act of neutrality It may be an act that is prompted by Abject ignorance, but it is an ignorance not of the existence truth of God, but of other issues beyond that so That that needs to be kept in mind.
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This is not a morally neutral act that they are but they are engaging him and so if there is a means by which you can bring the that suppression to light
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And in essence revive the recognition on this person's part that they are a spiritual being that they have
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More than just simply neurons firing in there in there between their ears
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They're not just a bag of chemicals bubbling and fizzing and doing various and sundry other things
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But that there is transcendent truth there is reality there is things beyond that I like to try to talk to a person and find out
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Actually, I let them talk. Have you heard the story about the young man that I spoke to at a university campus number of years ago
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Yeah, so I just let him talk I let him express And I didn't try to necessarily guide him to my conclusion
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I knew that eventually because he is what he is he is going to say what he said now It may come out at different points in the conversation, but to allow them to express their their own
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Humanity eventually they will give you what you need to say see the way you're living is
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Contradictory to the way you're believing and why is that? and sometimes that means pressing them to the the conclusions the
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The hopeless conclusions of their worldview or sometimes it involves
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Immediately with if you recognize a spiritual aspect of their response going with it from there
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Excellent. I really appreciate you appreciate your thoughts on that Well, it's
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It's something we all have to do It's not something that is simply the the purview of apologists anymore anybody in our society
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I mean if you if you start talking with somebody in a park bench in a grocery store line
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These things are to come up. We have to be thinking about how we're gonna do these things before we actually start engaging
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That's exactly right, you're right Harold, all right, I'm gonna be heading down your direction in February I believe
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I believe I know the church you're going to you're going to Rockdale Community Church Yes, uh -huh.
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Yeah. Well, I'd look look forward to seeing you there then. All right Look forward to seeing all my my Georgian friends down there.
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Oh, yeah. All right. Thank you Harold. Thank you. Thanks for calling Well, we haven't had a break for a few weeks, but is there really any reason to Okay, we'll go ahead and take our break
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Because you look disappointed there you work so hard at these things. You're ready We'll take our break and be back with a
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Jamie and Lane and your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We'll be right back Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the
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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Thank you And welcome back to the vine lines continue with our calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one one line is open
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Let's talk with Jamie. Hi, Jamie Howdy doc. I Have a question about a
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Mormon Namely, um, I'll start with this phrase yesterday. I was a
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Mormons come knocking on my door and and they I wasn't really sure what to say to them because they said, you know, we are they gave their standard line and I'm and all
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I'm thinking is you woke me up. Please go away Not it's not the most sanctified thought but you know,
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I tried to get beyond that So the first thing that came to mind beyond that was you're preaching another gospel.
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You've just admitted it they said, you know, we have another revelate another revelation have a living prophet and unfortunately,
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I think I may have been a little belligerent with them, but it made me realize that You know and I'm sitting down and talking with no length.
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I can probably Draw out some stuff, but if I only have a few minutes or at all, but it's a brief comment
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What how does one? Respond to them Really?
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I think because they literally broke off saying, you know, we're not here to argue and I'm thinking great.
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I didn't even really Say much that would have you know, maybe planted a seed later down the road or someone else could have used something and how
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How should I the Christian response them, you know in a meaningful way without preaching out? well yeah, there is a
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Actually a fair amount of information on that particular subject in the Mormonism section we
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Especially the hundred verse memorization system for for witnessing the Mormons is specifically meant to be of assistance along those lines
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I cut my teeth on learning to witness to Mormons from a Single book long long ago called on the front lines witnessing the
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Mormons by Wally Tope Wally Tope was the last person to die in the
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Los Angeles riots he was beaten into a coma outside of a Grocery store while trying to witness to looters and He was the last person to die in that violence that took place
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Where once again, you see what happens when God removes his hand of restraint and the evil of man is allowed to run free anyway
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When you have the opportunity of talking to those young missionaries Many of them today, especially are significantly more
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Postmodern than they were a while back and hence they they have very thin skins and the initial encounter can can be very difficult to Keep from resulting in someone saying well, we're not here to argue and then just just walking off There are some more missionaries there have always been some more more missionaries where if you if you offer any
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Resistance their message whatsoever. They're going to be packing up and leaving so there's not much that can be done about that but there certainly has been an increase in The the sensitivity of LDS missionaries to any kind of challenge and so From my perspective what what
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I would do if they were so bold as to come by my house, which they don't do any longer
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I wish that they would I would certainly, you know be happy to sit them down and and to talk with them for quite some time
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But when I have had that opportunity many many times in the past You you talk with them find out where they are where they're from They're never from this areas.
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They're all some someplace else. So, you know where in Utah they're from or Idaho or whatever sometimes someplace else, but that's what the majority would be coming from and You You know demonstrate to them that you are interested in in how long they've been out things like that and then
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I I personally let them know that I have studied their faith and I I do so in such a way as to not attempt to intimidate them
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But to just let them know that I feel that it's important that if you're if you're going to say something about someone's faith
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That you know it well that you listen to the best representations of it Sometimes I sort of lead into that by saying, you know,
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I I visited the MTC once and I use their language They know what the MTC is. Most people don't missionary training center
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Provo, Utah but I I demonstrate that I know something about what they believe and I If it if it seems appropriate,
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I'll even give a summary of some of the key issues And I'll mention some of the books that I've read the
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Book of Mormon. Dr. Carl's program price teachings prophets Joseph Smith marvelous work in a wonder things like that Which normally means
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I've read more LDS literature than they themselves have one of the problems with with some LDS missionaries is there well, they they really sort of think that they're elders of something and There's a certain element.
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Yeah, there's a certain element of hubris and arrogance on their part spiritual pride in essence and So Letting them know that I'm I am familiar with their beliefs
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On a pretty decent level sometimes helps keep some of that down. You have to have a goal before you start
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Which is sometimes difficult if you just open the door and there's two guys But you have to make a snap decision right then.
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What is it? I'm going to try to communicate in this My that's my question is in that situation.
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You know, what what's a good? approach I think is there's so much that's wrong with Mormonism that I'm aware of and I'm just trying to think of you know, how can
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I just say something meaningful to these men, you know? Whether or not they're gonna, you know Give me a few minutes or just say, you know, we're not here arguing to walk off I think the thing is they gave me a little bit.
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I asked him a question about the Galatians Thing and they said well, I they give me wishy -washy answer, but they responded at least
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Yeah, well, yeah, and there's there there are directions to go. I mean, I don't know that I would start with Galatians one
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That's that's my head. Yeah, that's that's pretty well gonna be letting him know exactly where you're coming from at that point, but We have always said especially as we've gone out to witness to Mormons in Mesa and up in Salt Lake City You have certain goals
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First is the nature of God who God is who Christ is and what salvation is Those are the three goals that you that you have and and you can't in a doorstep
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Conversation that is not planned to go for a lengthy period of time try to get to all three of those goals you have to figure out one and Try to go that direction
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I believe that it's best to go for the nature of God and who Christ is there are some who would say no no
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No, no, it's gospel gospel only. The problem is you're dealing with people have a wrong God and They to try they will try to fit what you're saying about the gospel of grace in with the wrong
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God the problem is the gospel of grace comes from the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob doesn't come from a exalted
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God from the planet that spins around a star named Kolob, so that's For me,
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I I want to try to introduce them to the unchanging God So that when they discover that they're changing
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God is not a sufficient grounds for faith or belief that they will remember that there was someone who introduced them to something better than that something higher than that and That's what
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I did in my first encounters with with more missionaries back in 1983
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When we met on a Monday and a Thursday When we met and when we finished on Thursday, and I knew that that was going to be it
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We had spoken for about five or six hours by that point over the two days When we were wrapping up I I said, you know,
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I had done the best I could to testify to them There was only one true and eternal God unchanging and I said
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Someday your changing God will be an insufficient basis for your Your faith and your salvation and when you want to know about the the unchanging
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God I hope you'll remember this conversation and hopefully we'll be able to talk again and That really has remained my focus.
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I remember I think I think rich was with me When I was
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I've been on with Van Hale and One of the things he said after it wasn't on the air was afterwards.
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We're standing around the studios at the station in Salt Lake City Was he said one thing
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I appreciate about you guys is You're you're saying the same things now you're saying when we first when we first met and I don't know if he meant that really
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It's a compliment He's just saying well, you know, you're just you know, you're you're beating the same drums But that to me was a compliment that we were not
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Unlike many people, you know grabbing on to salamander letters and so on and so forth
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I like that and we were sticking with what is important all the way along. No, I was there
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I remember that I and I did take it as a compliment. I think it was Intended as one. I think he he felt that you were different in that You were consistent and you were still preaching that same message and you weren't
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Constantly trying to conform your message to what was new and up -and -coming. Yeah. Yeah, so That that's the real focus.
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I think is to Introduce them to a God. They don't know they they don't know about that God and we have to allow the spirit to to work and so if if you can introduce them to that God now there are ways for example using
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Isaiah 44 24 to Give them something to really remember. They may not take literature from you.
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You may not have literature available, but if If if as I wave my arms back and forth wildly here if if I you know, sorry,
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I was trying to get the hold of Rich's attention there is I was watching something on the on the cameras that looked a little bit odd to me, but They're good.
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Okay We hope so Anyway, there are there are certain sanctified texts that can be used to to help them to see
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What the real issues are and Isaiah 44 24 is one of them for example That is a text you can go through and when they don't really have an answer for it
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You can you know, don't push them don't don't tell them to Don't put somebody in a corner where they have to try to come up with an answer that they don't have
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What you want to do is is show them that they don't have the answer But then give them the freedom to go looking for the answer and they may not do it during their mission
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They may do it afterwards you want to give them stuff That is you know, really gonna stick with them after the pressure cooker of the of the mission is over And that's not easily done, but it can be done and you're planting a seed there
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And so take a look at the hundred verse memorization system. I think you'll find that to be Quite useful.
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All right Thanks for calling. All right All right.
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Let's continue on and talk with Lane over in South Carolina.
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How are you Lane? Doing good Okay, so I've been raised kind of with an
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Arminia some point of view and I've been studying Calvinism and from what
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I can tell the New Testament definitely point towards Calvinism and predestination But one problem
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I just can't seem to understand is why would God predestined? Adam and Eve to sin and predestined to follow man and I get told this for the glory of God But I don't understand how that would glorify
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God. Okay Well, I wouldn't use the term predestination unless you're using in a very broad sense at that point
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What we're talking about here is that when God created? that he had knowledge of all events that would take place in time and That includes the fall of Adam now if a if a person wants to try to say no
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God did not know what Adam was going to do That raises all sorts of issues and so the issue of Adam and Eve and Their fall into sin is not actually simply a reformed issue if an
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Arminian believes that when God created God had full knowledge of what was going to take place including the fall of Adam and The only way to deny that is to be an open theist then the
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Arminian still has to answer the question. Why did God create in? Such a way that that was going to be the result if he knew that was going to happen
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Then why didn't he just create a different universe in which that wouldn't happen? so it's it's really a theistic question not just a reformed question as to why
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God would create in such a way that he knew that Evil would exist in the universe
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Either you have to say that he created and And he just basically tossed the cosmic dice and You know that was the result or you can go with the
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Molinist perspective of William Lane Craig and say that He didn't have a choice if he was going to create and fill heaven to a certain level
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Then he had to fill hell to a certain level to do so because there was no possible world in which
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Everyone would be saved and so there there had to be it's just it's just the only way that it was that's that's his explanation
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Or you go with the reformed explanation And that is that when you ask any of the big questions as to why
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God created? The way he created the only answer that is given to us in Scripture is found in the first chapter of Paul's epistle to the
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Ephesians Where specifically all of this is said to be to the praise of his glorious grace or specifically by This predestination takes place by the kind intention of his will first of all
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To the praise of his glorious grace now when you say I can't see how God's is glorified by the existence of evil well
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Can you see how God was glorified? through the destruction of The gods of Egypt and in the plagues because that's exactly why the plagues existed according to the
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Bible in Romans chapter 9 God did what he did and he hardened
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Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would not let the people go So that his name and his power would be proclaimed throughout all the earth that's specifically what the scriptures say and So if we we look at Pharaoh and we look at that situation, you know,
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God could have just simply Knocked Pharaoh dead for being an idolater and being a sinner
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He could have just brought his wrath to bear right then but instead he used him as the leader of a vastly idolatrous nation as a means by which
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God's power and his name would be proclaimed throughout all the earth and the Idolatry of the people would be exposed for what it was.
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And so when you think about it Lane God has There there are three choices in essence
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Three possibilities either God could save no one God could save someone or God could save everyone
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In which of those three does God have any freedom at all if he saves everyone then there's there's no freedom for him
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In the matter if he saves no one there's no freedom for him only in the salvation of a particular people can
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God Exhibit any freedom whatsoever. And I believe that that really the the answer to your question is found in the recognition
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That it is God's desire to demonstrate the full range of his attributes
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In his creative act. He is demonstrating his wrath his justice his holiness
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But he's also demonstrating his mercy his love his kindness and his grace No one receives injustice
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No one receives a an unfair response to their sin, but there are people who receive mercy and grace
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Mercy and grace however transcend the categories of justice and so When you when you talk about whether Adam and Eve whether God knew
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Adam and Eve is going to sin you either have to have a God that knows everything or You're stuck with open theism
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And I don't think there's any way to really make a meaningful case That the Bible presents a God who doesn't know what the future is
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That's that's first and foremost so any Bible believer is going to have to deal with this issue in a sober way
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I I just think that for many Armenians. They just say well, it's all free will well wait a minute if that's how
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God chose to create these things and he knew what we were gonna do with our free will and He knew that this was going to be the result and if he knew that then he either had a purpose for it
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Or he created all sorts of absolutely purposeful purposeless evil And had no purpose in any of it and I go
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He said he had a purpose in it look at look at what happened with Joseph's brothers There was a purpose and what they did yes, it was evil, but there was a purpose in it
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Look at what happens and bring a Syria against Israel to to punish them in Isaiah chapter 10
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Evil on the part of the Assyrians yes, but it still had a purpose Look at the crucifixion of Jesus evil on the part of everyone involved and yet it had the greatest purpose that we could have ever seen and so You know the
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Bible does not shrink back from from saying that the Lord accomplishes all his purposes in heaven and earth
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And that he does so not Just in spite of man's sin, but he even uses man's sin to his honor and to his glory and It's it's right there in the text you you have to struggle with it have to deal with it and to recognize that You know
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God is not limited to our human categories And in regards to his knowledge his purposes and why it is that we are commanded to worship him
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Okay, do you Have any Any follow -up question on that?
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I don't think that actually covers covers most of it. Okay. Well. Thanks for calling late. Thanks God bless fire
53:38
All right, then let's go to see where's the clock there, okay? Just gives me an idea how how much time we can dedicate here.
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Let's talk with Justin. Hi Justin. Hey doc How you doing going on? I'm a super from channel.
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Oh, okay. Oh great. You almost sound as incomprehensible as Ordo But not quite
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I've been discussing different doctrines, especially the doctrines of grace with a few of my friends one of the biggest
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Objections I have to it is well, you know, that's their interpret your interpretation. That's your opinion about the text
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I've heard we can't really know what Jesus means when he goes into the deep stuff That's for God to know and us to find out
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Us to find out what an eternity or now Yeah And um, you know,
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I showed them the text that uh that he pretty much explains You know, but you know, it goes into That that we can't know and all that kind of stuff.
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I guess I guess I want to know how to respond to that To someone who's saying the
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Bible is is on it just doesn't reveal these things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay
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Basically, I mean it sounds like you know atheist and agnostic objections. I mean it really does
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Yeah To me anyway, and I just hate to hear, you know, brother sister in Christ, you know object like that I mean, they're shooting everybody in the foot.
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Yeah That that comes from unfortunately being Exposed rather consistently to a form of preaching and ministry that does not inspire confidence in the clarity and perspicuity the
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Word of God first and foremost Certainly we recognize that the
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Bible is not an exhaustive revelation of Of every answer that the inquiring mind might want to ask.
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There's no question about that And I think we we need to recognize that the secret things belong to the
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Lord The things revealed belong to us and to our children forever. So there there is God gets to decide what he's going to reveal and what he isn't going to reveal
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But it really seems to me that you would probably find very helpful the reading of the beginning of Calvin's discussion of predestination in book three of the
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Institutes because he deals with his very objection and In essence points out that what these people are doing is
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They are they are charging the Holy Spirit with having made an error in revealing something that we really don't need to know
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If if it is revealed in Scripture, then it has been given to us for our edification and for our
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Knowledge so that we might worship God or right? God does not want to be worshipped like the pagans worship a god that they don't know
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There's no such thing as the unknown God in that in that way We are to know our
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God and therefore what is revealed in Scripture is revealed for us that we might know these things
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And that God is honored when we study his word and come to know him better And so in essence,
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I would I would say to such a person that says well, we just can't know these things Well, then why why is the
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New Testament as big as it is? Why do we have entire chapters addressing these topics?
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Why do we find even Paul? in in passing saying to Timothy That he endures all things the sake of the elect if we aren't supposed to be able to know who in the world the elect are
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When you're making that kind of it of an offhand statement the same the thing that Luke does in Acts 13 40 as many has been
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Ordained to eternal life believed they don't even have to stop and explain these things. These are basic things
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And and there's they're supposed to be understood and supposed to be known And in in reality the person saying well, we can't know about these things.
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I would suggest has a tradition that is getting in the way of basic biblical revelation and It's not that these things are too high to be known these things should be known by everyone
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And we have we have accepted a least common denominator Christianity that has actually drawn us
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Way below where we where we should be on the basic level So in essence,
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I would go on longer But the the music is just about to be starting and so I would go into how you can you know
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You should also establish that it's not a matter of just different interpretations the Bible It is a matter of allowing the
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Bible as a whole to speak for itself And when you allow that to happen, it can do so plainly.
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So hey, thanks for your call Justin. Thank you All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right. Thanks for all the good phone calls today
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I didn't even have to get into the little bit that I had queued up, but we'll get to it. Eventually. I do want to play Richard Dawkins demonstrating that when it comes to debating and intellectual issues.
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He is a coward Yes, that's all there is to it, I just I it's just amazing to me
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The not only the money but the aplomb that this man receives when he's not willing to do what he should be doing
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But we'll probably get to that on Thursday on the dividing line. Thanks for listening. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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