August 4, 2022 Show with Rev. Ricky McCarl on “An Anglican’s Critical Observations of the Conversion of Beth Moore to Anglicanism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fourth day of August 2022.

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Anybody who has listened to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio long enough knows that I love to have the opportunity to interview

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Anglican ministers when they are biblically sound and faithful to Christ and his word, and it is my pleasure to do so again today.

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Today we have as our guest a returning guest, Reverend Ricky McCarl. He is a hospice chaplain and vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we're going to be discussing something fairly controversial today.

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We're going to be hearing an Anglican's critical observations of the conversion of renowned

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Southern Baptist author and public speaker, Beth Moore, to Anglicanism, and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons and in name only.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Ricky McCarl. Well, hello.

02:36

How are you? I'm doing fantastic, brother. And I'm amazed that whenever I have conversations with evangelicals of any background, they could be

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Reformed Baptists such as myself. They could be Presbyterians. They could just be from the broader spectrum of evangelicalism.

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They are in a state of total mystery when it comes to Anglicanism. They don't know what to think.

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And obviously it's likely because, as you well know, there is a wide spectrum of ministers and churches and congregants who are from a wide spectrum of theology and ideology and practice and so on.

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So because of that, tell our listeners about Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and be as descriptive as you possibly can.

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Sure. Well, I will say that what you have described is what I call the frustratingly beautiful things of Anglicanism.

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We are an odd assortment of characters. Our church recently had transferred into the

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Reformed Episcopal Church, which is a sub -jurisdiction of the Anglican Church of North America, from an

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ACNA diocese, specifically the Diocese of Pittsburgh. So we're now a

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Reformed Episcopal Church. And of course the history of the Reformed Episcopal Church is long and storied.

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We were founded in the 1870s in response to the

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Oxford movement and ritualism in the church. And we have held consistently to the authority of the

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Bible for all that time. So we are excited that there are other

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Anglicans out there who are, you know, holding firm to the historic teachings of the church and the scriptures and to be in fellowship with them is a good thing.

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However, you know, coming to Good Shepherd, we found that, you know, there are some differences between the

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Reformed Episcopal Church and the ACNA, despite being a part of the ACNA. And a lot of those differences have been resolved.

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But it took a lot of time and effort, and we're quite happy. One of the big issues for us, of course, was women's ordination.

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That's not an issue in our parish, but I do know it is an issue in other dioceses and other parishes throughout the province.

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Yes, I am a firm believer in exclusively male headship in the church and male headship in the home.

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And I'm always mystified when I have the occasion to meet from the

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Anglican Communion men that I agree with on nearly every single issue except for perhaps a small handful of things that are uniquely

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Anglican. But as far as the scriptures are concerned, we agree on nearly everything, and I, being a

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Reformed Baptist, would really only find objection to the 39 articles in the area of baptism.

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Sure. But then they will tell me that they are egalitarian as far as leadership in the church, and that just absolutely blows me away.

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I can't understand that. Yeah, I mean, there's a long—well, not a long history of that.

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I mean, it all started in the 1970s. Forgive me for not knowing proper dates.

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I was always bad at that in history class. But yes, that's really a recent development in the history of the church, and it was really the

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Episcopal Church that drove that whole thing, and unfortunately the ACNA has some carryover with that.

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I do know when ACNA was formed, some of those ladies renounced their ordinations and became laypeople.

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Well, they were already laypeople, but I digress. But yeah, that's an issue that we're continually working through as a church.

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And by the way, I sometimes—and I know that some of my listeners may be tired of hearing me repeat myself—I sometimes rib my

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Anglican friends and say that I actually believe in all of the 39

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Articles of Religion, because it doesn't—or they don't actually mention infants in regard to baptism.

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It just says children. So if a child repents and believes, I am more than happy to see that child baptized.

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There you go. I actually had a funny story with the 39 Articles. I was visiting a nursing home here locally some time ago, and it was a

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Presbyterian home, and I assumed Presbyterian meant PCUSA. And I was chatting with the chaplain a little bit, and he says,

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What church are you with? And usually I'll just say, I'm an Episcopal minister, because people don't really know what an

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Anglican is. I know sometimes I get calls at the church that, you know, for the

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Anglican Church, various different ways of pronouncing that. But I said,

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I'm an Episcopal minister, and he said, Oh, I used to love the Episcopal Church when they affirmed the 39

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Articles. And I said, Well, actually, I'm a Reformed Episcopalian, and we do affirm the 39

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Articles. And it turned out he knew all about the REC, and was a big supporter of our seminary in the past.

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And you never know when you're going to run into a friend. Yeah, amen. In fact, one of my dearest friends, who is now in Heaven, Dr.

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Robert J. Cameron, he was a graduate of Reformed Episcopal Seminary. He eventually became an

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Orthodox Presbyterian pastor, but he was for quite some time a

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Reformed Episcopal minister. And just to confirm a little bit about the

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Oxford Movement, since you mentioned it before, about how the Reformed Episcopal Church denomination founded, or why, in protest to the

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Oxford Movement. And I know that the Oxford Movement shares a lot in common with the

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Puseyites and the Tractarians, being very favorable to nearly everything

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Roman Catholic, with the exception of the primacy of the papacy and the infallibility of the papacy.

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But that's specifically why, if I'm not mistaken, the

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Reformed Episcopal Church began in protest to that growing influence of Anglo -Catholic theology and practice into the

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Episcopal Church. Am I right? Yeah, there's actually a good book by the historian

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Alan Gelza called For the Unity of Evangelical Christendom. I believe that's the name of the title.

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And that's the history of the Reformed Episcopal Church. It's required reading at the seminary, so we've all read it.

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But it's a great history, so if anyone's interested in looking at that. And Alan Gelza, you might be familiar with him from the

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History Channel. He's a Lincoln scholar. Wow, I've got to get a hold of that book. Yes.

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And just to quickly remind my listeners, one of the reasons why I love interviewing biblically faithful Anglicans and Episcopalians when

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I have the opportunity is that my father's side of the family was

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Episcopalian primarily. My mother was Roman Catholic. I was raised in the

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Roman Catholic Church. And my father converted to Catholicism when I was about 17.

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And most of his family, his brothers and cousins and so on, remained

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Episcopalian. And I remember my Uncle Donald, who passed,

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I think, a decade or more ago. He lived up in Washington State, and he was so disgusted by the liberalism that had destroyed, to a great degree, the

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Episcopal Church that he was contemplating converting to Roman Catholicism.

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And I remember I was going on a massive search for biblically faithful Episcopal parishes as close to him as possible and could not find one.

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And what began in me a burden to make sure that people were aware of biblically sound, thoroughly

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Protestant, biblically faithful Christ -honoring Episcopal and Anglican churches before they made the leap into Rome, which

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I believe is a very sad state indeed. I would consider it apostasy.

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But I try to let people aware that there are biblically faithful Episcopalians and Anglicans out there, if you do enough searching, because I know that there are people who do love the liturgy and so on.

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But I just want to give our listeners your website in case they either live in Harrisburg or are visiting

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Harrisburg or if they have friends and family in Harrisburg that they want to either visit themselves or have their loved ones visit this church.

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GoodShepherdAnglican .net, Good Shepherd Anglican. Well, you, some time ago actually, and we didn't have the opportunity to get you on the program until today, but some time ago, you wanted to address, as I've already mentioned, your critical observations of the conversion of renowned

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Southern Baptist author and public speaker Beth Moore to Anglicanism and also a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons in name only.

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And if you could, for our listeners who are unfamiliar with Beth Moore, who is she?

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Yes, I'm amazed by how many people actually are unfamiliar with Beth Moore's work.

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I was speaking with a couple of clergymen in our diocese and they were unfamiliar with her, which is actually probably a good thing.

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Beth Moore was a household name growing up in evangelical circles.

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A lot of the ladies used her Bible studies, used her books and whatnot in their own personal devotions.

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And I've been concerned about Beth Moore for 20 years. It's kind of weird to be able to say that you've been concerned about somebody for 20 years, but I guess

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I'm old enough now to have that experience. But yes, she's from the

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Southern Baptist Church. She calls herself a Bible teacher, not a pastor. But like I said,

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I've been concerned with some of that for some time. And recently, we learned that she left the

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Southern Baptist Convention, in part because of what she perceives to be, and these are my words, what

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I perceive her to have perceived to have been some very too conservative tendencies, some fundamentalist tendencies.

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And she's come into the ACNA. I don't know the parish.

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It's a parish down in Texas. I'm told it's Anglo -Catholic, but I don't know how

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Anglo -Catholic they actually are. And I know she's been serving as a verger at the altar.

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She's not preached there, but she has at various times been platformed by that diocese.

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She's done some teaching for them at their diocesan council, and she was to speak at the vergers conference coming up sometime this month down in Texas.

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I just generally have some concerns with that, especially given things she said on Twitter about the

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Southern Baptist Convention. And really and truly, this isn't about her. This is about any ex -evangelical who comes to Anglicanism with the idea that we're less stringent theologically than whatever tradition they're coming from.

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For whatever reason, there's this idea that Anglicans don't really have a theology.

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You can make it what it is. And so a lot of times evangelicals will bring some of their evangelical baggage with them.

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I mean, I know of clergy who will not baptize infants, and that's quite peculiar for an

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Anglican, not so much for a Reformed Baptist like yourself. But for an Anglican, that's a strange sort of thing.

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Really? An ordained Anglican minister, rector? Yes, there's a couple floating around, but they're a minority for sure.

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Are they independent ministers? Because there are Anglican churches that are not officially connected to any...

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No, they would be a part of the ACNA. I will say, which is off topic, but there's

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Anglican churches that aren't connected with an Anglican jurisdiction. I don't really know how that works, considering that our

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Anglican polity is focused around the bishop and being connected with the diocese.

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But I do know that there are some independent Episcopal and Anglican churches out there in the world.

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I just don't know how that works practically. Well, I know one of the issues that seriously concerned many conservative evangelicals over Beth Moore was that she had become full -blown egalitarian and publicly identified as such, where women have the full right to be leaders over men and teachers of men in the church.

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What else can you say about Beth Moore that would ring any alarm bells?

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Well, that's always been my biggest concern with her. But then after the 2016 election, she has had some pretty negative things to say about people who voted conservative in that election.

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I don't want to get too political here. That's not the point that I'm trying to make.

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But what I will say about that is, and I've said this to a number of people, there were a number of people who voted in that election the way that they did for a whole host of reasons.

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Not everyone voted conservative in 2016 for the candidate that was running because they're alt -right, or they're racist, or whatever the label is that people throw on them.

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But that's an accusation she has raised a couple of times in her tweets and her online presence.

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And I find that a little concerning, especially since my parish is conservative, votes conservative, and like I said, for a myriad of reasons, not because they're bigoted or anything like that.

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I find that rhetoric troubling, and I see that in other places, not just with Beth Moore.

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I mean, we can talk about David French or any other number of evangelical quote -unquote thought leader.

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Russell Moore for that. There's any number of former evangelicals that we can talk about that has leveled that accusation against conservative

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Christians, and I just don't think it's fair or right. Now, what do you see as a danger from Beth Moore coming into the fold of the

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ACNA when they already have a practice of ordination?

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Well, it is my understanding that that diocese does not ordain women, that that parish does not ordain women.

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I don't anticipate them doing that, given who the bishop is.

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I think for the most part they're a pretty solid conservative diocese, although I don't know them real well.

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But I do think that given some of the egalitarianism that Beth Moore has spoken of in the past, that this will give those egalitarians already in the church more license to hold their erroneous views.

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I mean, this is a constant struggle that we in the Reformed Episcopal Church and other dioceses have with the

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ACNA. I know the Diocese of Fort Worth doesn't ordain women. There's a whole myriad of dioceses that don't do this, but then you've got those dioceses that do.

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And I know there are people who are hoping that women's ordination will just be an issue that dies out over time, but if we keep bringing egalitarian voices into the church,

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I'm not sure that's going to happen. It almost bolsters the argument.

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Well, we're going to our first break right now. And if anybody has a question for Pastor Ricky McCarl, please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. You are in a congregation where the primary teachings may be in conflict with my guest's teachings, or you might even be a minister in that you are beginning a journey of theological transformation, and you are beginning to question what the other leaders of that congregation or even denomination, and you don't want to draw attention to yourself.

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You don't want to draw attention to your identity. I can understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but please, if it's just a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

22:34

Don't go away. We are going to be right back right after these messages with more of Reverend Ricky McCarl of Good Shepherd Anglican Church and our topic for the day, which is an

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Anglican's critical observations of the conversion of renowned Southern Baptist author and public speaker

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Beth Moore to Anglicanism and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. And that was the voice of my very dear friend,

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Reverend Roger Salter, another Anglican. He is the rector at St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a biblically faithful church strictly adhering to the

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, for Wednesday, August 10th, 4 to 6 p .m.

34:41

Eastern Time. We're now back with my guest today, Reverend Ricky McCarl, who is vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we are discussing an

34:54

Anglican's critical observations of the conversion of Southern Baptist author and public speaker

35:00

Beth Moore to Anglicanism and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons in name only.

35:08

Now, there are congregations and even denominations who are so excited about numeric growth that they really don't care about who joins their ranks just as long as they see more people in their pews and more people putting money in the plate, and perhaps even especially if it's somebody that's a well -known speaker that may draw more people into that congregation or denomination.

35:43

Why is it that you are not among those that loves to see, quote -unquote, conversions for the sake of growth and the communion where you serve?

35:58

Well, I think, honestly, everybody wants to see their churches grow numerically and see people coming to the knowledge of the truth.

36:07

I don't know anyone who would say, oh, I'm perfectly happy with, you know, my small little tiny parish and never reaches out or does anything like that.

36:16

That's not the case. I guess my concern as a pastor is that people come to us for the right reasons, come to us not because they're trying to escape something, but because they're trying to come to a more fuller understanding of something they're coming to, whatever that is.

36:41

And usually it's the liturgy that attracts people to us or, you know, the 39

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Articles or something like that. But, I mean, I don't think that it would be accurate to say

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I'm not concerned about growth. I just want to see people coming for the right reasons.

37:01

Right, right. And I didn't mean to imply that you weren't concerned about growth. There are some people who could care less.

37:07

And I have told people, I have told

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Roman Catholic people who have begun bouncing around visiting evangelical churches,

37:23

I have asked them, why are you visiting evangelical churches? And I love it when

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I hear that people are coming under the conviction of God, that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.

37:37

Absolutely. Or they hear, because the ministers there really open up and teach the Bible, where you only hear a five -minute homily in the

37:46

Catholic Church. Those kinds of things I'm happy to hear, but one should never convert purely or even predominantly because of where a certain, or should

38:01

I say how a certain congregation makes them feel.

38:09

Obviously good feelings are a great part of it, to feel welcomed and loved and cared for.

38:16

That's a good thing, and that's a good element of a church to be manifesting when they have visitors and so on.

38:27

But when that's the only reason, you know, I love this church, I want to join it because they have a potluck lunch every second

38:35

Sunday of the month or whatever it is. They have so many programs for the kids.

38:41

And, you know, you could go on and on, but their concerns have nothing to do with salvific reasons, with major biblical reasons, with major doctrinal reasons that may even have eternity attached to them.

38:59

Does it concern you that there may be a lot of folks who love the smells and bells, who love the way they feel when they go to an

39:13

Anglican church, and I'm not sure where on the ladder of low versus high church, maybe you can give us a little more detail on that.

39:23

You are, and your congregation, a good shepherd. But, you know, there are people who, there are aesthetic reasons why they change churches or even convert that really have nothing to do with their soul.

39:39

And I was wondering if that concerns you, that there is a phenomenon where people just love the mystique and the religiosity or the feeling of being in a church that is more highly liturgical.

39:52

Sure, yeah. I will say, first off, I love a good potluck. I am a returned man.

40:00

I do. That's just not enough. I mean, I'm preaching through Revelation right now, and we're just in the beginning phases of the book, and there's a lot of negative things that Jesus has to say to the seven churches in Asia.

40:20

And one of the things that I highlighted here recently in a sermon was that love for the 1928 prayer book or the 1662 prayer book isn't enough.

40:32

There needs to be conversion of the soul. You need to have a fervent love for Christ and Christ's truth.

40:43

And one of the core things about Anglicanism, classical Anglicanism, is that we're about word and sacrament.

40:51

And so it's not about feelings and emotions. It's not about smells and the bells. It's about word and sacrament.

40:59

It's about the objective truth of God's word in the gospel. And so we're at Good Shepherd.

41:05

We're on the high church end of the spectrum. We are not Anglo -Catholics. The Reformed Episcopal Church gets accused of that a lot.

41:14

I like to tell people we are Catholic in the way of, like,

41:21

Mercersburg theology. We are still very much 39

41:26

Articles Anglicans. We are still very much Reformed Christians. Our liturgy is just a little bit higher than what you might find in some low church, more

41:38

Reformational Anglican parishes. But the nostalgia, the feelings that people get, that's just not enough to be practicing

41:52

Anglicanism, because the whole point of Anglicanism is to affirm the faith once handed down by the apostles.

42:03

And I think that's probably my biggest concern here, is that you see a lot of people who convert to Anglicanism because they have preconceived notions about us that probably aren't necessarily accurate.

42:17

And I have met individuals who will, even though they believe in the gospel, even though they are apparently, by their thoughts and words and deeds, are regenerate, they will join themselves with even a liberal

42:41

Episcopalian church, purely because they love the liturgy. And one person who has really made that clear,

42:50

I don't know him personally, I love his show most of the time, vast majority of the time, but Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

42:59

He is known for making fun and even mocking

43:06

Episcopalianism, and yet he remains an Episcopalian because he loves the liturgy.

43:13

That was his only reason that he, obviously, makes him feel good, makes him feel religious or something. But first of all, why don't you provide for our listeners the main tenets that you think must exist within either a congregation or parish or denomination for it to be rightly called

43:36

Anglican? Right, and I think that's a very important question. I think that speaks to our identity, and I know people get tired of hearing about the debate about Anglican identity, but that's an important question that we need to nail down.

43:53

The Episcopal Church will tell you that Anglican identity is contingent upon their connection to the

44:00

Archbishop of Canterbury. And earlier in the program, you said something about the Anglican Communion. I want to make it clear that the

44:07

Anglican Church of North America and the Reformed Episcopal Church are not member churches in the Anglican Communion.

44:13

The Archbishop of Canterbury recognizes us as valid clergy, but we're considered, and this is a loaded term itself, ministry partners, not part of the

44:28

Anglican Communion. And I would go so far as to say we're not in any ministry partnership with the

44:34

Church of England at all anyways. They're very much apostate at this point.

44:40

Perhaps I used the wrong phrase when I was speaking of communion. I did not mean the official

44:47

Church of England. Right. I mean, we do have connections with GAFCON, the

44:54

Global Anglican Futures Conference, which is those Anglican primates in Africa and Asia, the

45:02

Middle East, who are biblically Orthodox and are still part of the Anglican Communion.

45:08

So that's our connection there. But, again, as far as provincial status, the

45:15

Anglican Communion does not recognize us as a part. But I don't think that that's accurately depicting

45:23

Anglicanism, that connection with the Archbishop of Canterbury, especially if the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't an

45:29

Anglican. The thing that makes an Anglican an Anglican is the formularies, the

45:35

Book of Common Prayer, the Ordinal of 1662, specifically the 1662

45:42

Prayer Book, the 39 Articles, the

45:47

Books of Homilies. Those are the things that make us Anglican. Those are our patrimony.

45:55

Those are the things that the Anglican reformers handed down to us. And I think a lot of churches that call themselves

46:03

Anglican have significantly departed from those things. And that's been detrimental to their character as a church.

46:15

I mean, I think a big part of the problem we see in liberal

46:22

Anglicanism and even to some extent in Anglo -Catholicism, and this is going to get me in trouble with my

46:27

Anglo -Catholic friends, but I'm going to go there, is to call the formularies historic documents, that destabilizes the church.

46:39

And so what has happened is our Anglo -Catholic friends have said, the 39

46:45

Articles are a historic document, you know, confessional way, and they go in the route of Anglo -Catholicism, and then the liberals grab a hold of that and say, okay, they're not a confessional document, so we can believe whatever we want.

47:01

And they might even use church fathers to justify their position. They might use

47:08

Second Vatican Council theories and ideas as their model for doing things.

47:18

I mean, the 1979 prayer book, for example, is not a historic

47:23

Anglican prayer book. That's the prayer book used in most of the Episcopal churches, and it's a tragedy.

47:29

It's a nightmare. But I think that has a lot to do with why we are where we are today.

47:37

And you mentioned before that there are people who you believe have converted or want to convert to Anglicanism, thinking that they will be receiving and experiencing something entirely different than the reality.

47:52

I'm sorry, I don't understand how you mean. Well, I believe you said before, there are people who have wrong expectations when they convert to Anglicanism.

48:08

They're thinking of something in their mind, a picture they got somehow that is false.

48:15

If you could maybe give us a few reasons why that would be. One of the concerns

48:21

I have is one of these things called three streams Anglicanism. Three streams

48:27

Anglicanism is kind of an innovation from the last century. It's this idea that there are three streams within Anglicanism, the

48:37

Catholic stream, the evangelical stream, the charismatic stream.

48:45

I think that doesn't have any basis in historic

48:52

Anglicanism. There have always been, there's been a wide variety in Anglicanism.

48:59

I remember some time ago you had my friend Archbishop Peter Robinson on and he talked about how

49:05

Anglicanism is the middle way between Lutheranism and the Reformed. But there are a lot of people who think that Anglicanism is the middle way between Rome and the evangelical.

49:18

Right, often phrased the via media. Right, we're the via media between Lutheranism and, some would say,

49:27

Wittenberg in Geneva. So that's how classical

49:32

Anglicanism was formulated. You'd have a wide variety. You'd have Lutheran Anglicans, high churchmen, and you'd have

49:38

Reformed Anglicans, low churchmen in the Church of England, and the Elizabethan settlement brought those things together.

49:48

But I think that things have become so wide in Anglicanism that you really get, quite frankly, confusion, more so than a streamlined, that's probably not the best term for it.

50:05

So I think that's a big part of the problem is viewing

50:11

Anglicanism as an anything -goes sort of thing. And I think there are voices out there who promote it that way.

50:19

I mean, the late Thomas McKenzie in his book, The Anglican Way, I think that book misrepresents a lot of what

50:28

Anglicanism is really supposed to be and produces a lot of confusion.

50:35

And then you have Tish Harrison Warren who has produced a lot of books on liturgy, liturgy in the night.

50:45

Not that I want to promote these books, but I'm not. But I think what those books do is they muddy the waters a little bit about what actual

50:54

Anglicanism is. And so you get people, and I'll get them in the parish, who have all these preconceived notions because of all these multiple voices, and they end up being, in time, dissatisfied with how things are.

51:12

It's not what they expected it to be. They were expecting Roman Catholic light, praying to the saints and all of those things.

51:23

And then they find out that we don't have a monstrance and we're not bowing down to the host. And we actually are following the

51:30

Thirty -Nine Articles, and they find that a disappointment. By the way, does the

51:35

Episcopal Church USA, the main line largest in identifying itself as Episcopalian, which

51:43

I don't know if I could say with absolute certainty that the majority of it is apostate, but certainly a significant element of it is, do they still on paper claim to adhere to the

51:58

Thirty -Nine Articles? Because I believe at one time, to be ordained into the

52:04

Episcopal Church, you had to pledge some kind of an allegiance to those articles, even after they had become sort of a relic amongst

52:15

Episcopalians. Sure, I can't really speak to that. I have not ever been a part of the mainline

52:25

Episcopal Church, nor do I ever intend to be a part of the mainline Episcopal Church. I do know that there are some good clergy in the

52:33

Episcopal Church. I think of George Conger with Anglican Unscripted, Anglican Inc.

52:39

It's a new program for Anglicans, essentially. He's a good, solid, orthodox, evangelical

52:45

Anglican within the Episcopal Church. But I can't speak to whether they still require affirmation to the

52:53

Thirty -Nine Articles for ordination. I do know I had to sign a document stating that I affirm the

52:59

Thirty -Nine Articles and the other formularies in the Reformed Episcopal Church, but I can't speak to the

53:05

Episcopal Church. What I will say about the Episcopal Church is they are really trying to rid themselves of orthodox clergy.

53:16

I mean, recently they brought Bishop Love up on charges for refusing to allow gay marriages in his diocese.

53:28

In fact, could you pick up on Reverend Love, because we have to go to the midway break right now, but pick up right when we return.

53:34

Sure. Okay, folks, this is a longer than normal break. Please be patient and send in your questions to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

53:41

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Ricky McCarl right after these messages from our sponsor.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Aronson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my guest,

01:08:31

Reverend Ricky McCarl of Good Shepherd Anglican Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, I have a few very important announcements to make.

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First of all, if you are as concerned about the heresies of Joel Osteen, a notorious false teacher and televangelist, dangerously so, then you might want to find out more about an event that's going to be held this

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Saturday at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx, New York. If you especially live near the five boroughs of New York City or can travel there this

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Saturday, Joel Osteen is going to be speaking, unfortunately, at Yankee Stadium.

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And Soul Fishing Ministries, a really sound and solid biblically faithful parachurch ministry connected to Grace Baptist Church in Queens, New York, they are going to be there as an evangelical witness, a biblical witness with tracts and other ways of evangelism at this

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Joel Osteen event this Saturday. So, if you want to find out more about it, go to soulfishingministries .org,

01:09:54

soulfishingministries .org, and click on events. You'll have all the information that you need. Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airways,

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful church like Good Shepherd Anglican Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, no matter where you live on the planet

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I've helped people find churches, sometimes just a few minutes from where they live. So if that is you, if you are unfamiliar with a

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and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line.

01:13:19

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Reverend Ricky McCarl. He is, as we were saying before, a vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we are discussing an assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons and in name only.

01:13:41

Just out of curiosity, when it comes to the very well -known conversion of Beth Moore from the

01:13:51

Southern Baptist Convention to Anglicanism, do you have any reason to believe that she did not enter into this new religious experience knowing about what

01:14:06

Anglicanism is about? There are people who sometimes convert because they know they can get lost somewhere, or maybe not even convert, but just go from one congregation to another because they know they can get away with teaching and believing and behaving in the way that they really want to without being ostracized or disciplined or being put under a spotlight that they can get lost, if you will.

01:14:38

Do you know what the specific situation is with Beth Moore without obviously impugning her with motives that she doesn't have?

01:14:50

Yeah, I'm hesitant to comment on the orientation of someone's heart.

01:14:57

I don't have the power to see in anyone's heart, let alone someone

01:15:02

I don't even know personally. I will say that what I see externally,

01:15:10

I mean, she has said publicly that she left the Southern Baptist Convention because of their conservatism, and I don't really know what to make of that.

01:15:25

Especially when the Southern Baptist Convention is so polluted with the woke movement. Yeah, I mean,

01:15:33

I would imagine she was probably on that woke end of the spectrum.

01:15:40

And of course, all of the denominations are dealing with that to some extent.

01:15:46

I mean, we have our own problems with that in the ACNA. I am so thankful that both

01:15:53

Archbishop Beach, our primate, and my presiding bishop,

01:16:01

Bishop Ray Sutton, last year both came out against wokeism in the

01:16:06

Church to some controversy. So at this point, that doesn't seem to be the direction that we in the

01:16:14

ACNA and the Reformed Episcopal Church are going to go, but it does bring the question up, why would someone leave a conservative denomination for their conservatism and go to another conservative denomination?

01:16:27

I mean, to the best of my knowledge, the Anglican Church of North America and the

01:16:34

Southern Baptist Convention have very good relationships. So that is a curiosity to me as well.

01:16:42

I don't exactly understand that. All I can say is that I do know that a number of people leave conservative denominations for the

01:16:52

ACNA thinking that we're going to be less theologically stringent, less theologically rigorous.

01:17:02

They can hold to their views of women's ordination and egalitarianism here without any sort of trouble, and I don't think that that's an accurate depiction of where the

01:17:15

ACNA is. I like to tell people, when they say, oh, the ACNA ordains women,

01:17:21

I like to tell people that we allow for the ordination of women in some diocese.

01:17:26

It's an exception to the rule rather than the rule. But I think because it happens, people think that that's where we are.

01:17:35

Somewhat recently, within the past four or five years, the province put out a study on women's ordination, and the study said that women's ordination was an innovation and had no warrant in Scripture.

01:17:53

So that's an official statement from the church. So I'm not really sure

01:17:59

I understand. I don't understand why people think they're going to be able to get away with the things they think they're going to get away with in Anglicanism.

01:18:10

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who doesn't really have a question, but he has a humorous anecdote.

01:18:19

He said, when my wife and I were first attending an Anglican congregation back in Pennsylvania, they had a fish fry or roast beef dinner or some such fellowship meal on a

01:18:30

Saturday evening. Since we were still new, we were introducing ourselves to people and asking about them and their church experience.

01:18:40

We asked an older couple sitting across from us, So, are you folks members of St. Paul's?

01:18:46

The husband somewhat curmudgeonly responded, Nah, we're Presbyterians.

01:18:52

We just came for the food. Well, good. We love

01:18:58

Presbyterians and the ACNA and there's a number of Presbyterians who occasionally visit

01:19:04

Good Shepherd. I think of our friend Dave Waterman, who is a regular attender.

01:19:12

I have a great affection for Dave and his ministry in the area.

01:19:18

There are others as well. We have a wide spectrum at Good Shepherd.

01:19:24

My postulant likes to call himself a Puritan. I chafe at that a little bit, but like I said, we do love our

01:19:36

Presbyterian brothers and sisters. Ted adds to this email, and I'm assuming he is speaking of your comments about three streams

01:19:48

Anglicanism. He says, Your guest is absolutely right about muddying of the waters.

01:19:55

Sometimes they think that the blues legend Muddy Waters should be the patron saint of the

01:20:01

Anglican communion in the U .S. Yes. Like I said,

01:20:08

I'm preaching through Revelation and Jesus says, I wish you were warm or cold, but you're neither warm nor cold.

01:20:16

You're lukewarm and I'm going to spit you out of my mouth. I'm mindful of the fact that I wish that people were either

01:20:22

Anglo -Catholic or Reformed, not some sort of weird hodgepodge of chaosness.

01:20:30

Now, you just said you're preaching through Revelation. I'm assuming that you do, I don't know if it's exclusively, but you do conduct expository preaching?

01:20:42

Yeah, in the summer months, I usually will preach through a book of the Bible, but during what we call ordinary time,

01:20:51

Trinity time, I preach through a book of the Bible. But when the church calendar is going,

01:20:56

I like to try and stick with the lectionary as we're trying to tell the story of Jesus, the gospel in calendar form, as I like to say.

01:21:08

So, when Advent gets here, I'll start preaching through the lectionary again, and then

01:21:14

I'm looking maybe to pick up with 1 Corinthians next summer. Now, I'd like you to give your own words of warning, of challenge to ministers within the

01:21:39

Anglican identity. I want you to warn and challenge them about what you think are the greatest dangers that you see encroaching upon even the conservative communions.

01:21:55

It's interesting to witness in history how different groups, denominations, fellowships, there's like a pendulum that goes back and forth.

01:22:06

Like, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention that we've been speaking about. They went through a purging in the 1980s where liberals were removed from positions on faculties and removed from their pastoral offices.

01:22:28

It was a cleansing, if you will. And now, you see, the

01:22:35

Southern Baptist Convention has finally reached a point where it is fairly universally a conservative and biblically faithful denomination with divisions among them regarding Calvinism and Arminianism and so forth, but still they've finally achieved a reasonable level of fellowship that had integrity attached, where there weren't actually apostates in authority in their midst.

01:23:10

And once they come to this place, they've invited the woke movement into their midst.

01:23:17

It's just mind -boggling to me that this is occurring. So, do you have anything to say about your fellow ministers who identify themselves as Anglican in this regard, of any kind of warning about the things you see on the horizon or things that you already see occurring?

01:23:38

Well, I have some very grave concerns about the social justice gospel being preached, wokeism, critical race theory.

01:23:50

I know that's a loaded term. All of those things are rearing their ugly heads, and I do believe that there's heresies subtly mixed in with those ideologies.

01:24:06

And I'm not prepared to expound upon that any more than to say that, but I do believe that there's a lot of danger out there.

01:24:17

I will say that we've had divisions and discord in the Church since the

01:24:22

Book of Acts, and we will continue to have divisions and whatnot in the Church. I'm not so naive that I think that we're going to be able to have a perfect Church this side of Heaven, but I do think that we need to stand firm on the

01:24:37

Word of God, that we need to stand firm for truth, and that we need to not be afraid to do that.

01:24:45

I know that the world is becoming more and more hostile to truth, but I think preachers need to be about the business of preaching the unadulterated gospel.

01:24:58

They need to be just putting it out there and letting the chips fall where they will, knowing that God will care for us, that God will provide for us.

01:25:09

I've seen that in my own life in ministry, and I just want to encourage all clergy to continue to do what is right and what is biblically faithful.

01:25:22

Now, earlier in the program you had begun to explain the origins of the

01:25:31

Reformed Episcopal Church being a response against Romish beliefs and practices in the

01:25:40

Episcopalian church at large, known as the

01:25:45

Oxford movement, and do you see a resurgence of that aberrant church life and teaching

01:25:59

Romish in its identity and practice? Do you see a resurgence of that even among people who are part of a group that actually has its very founding in leaving that and protesting it?

01:26:14

Well, I will say I don't think that's ever gone away, but also

01:26:20

I want to say this with this caveat, the Oxford movement was kind of a mixed bag.

01:26:28

The Newmanites, the followers of John Newman, I would call

01:26:34

Anglo -Papalist, will say the Mass in Latin, their preference would be for the

01:26:43

Anglican mitzvah opposed to the prayer book, but there are Anglo -Catholics who love the prayer book tradition, are kind of not afraid of their

01:26:57

Protestant heritage, I'll say. So when you're talking about Anglo -Catholicism, it's kind of a hard animal to pin down because there's so much individualism in play there.

01:27:08

I mean, I know some good Anglo -Catholics that are co -belligerent in the war against women's ordination and woke -ism.

01:27:16

I know some good Anglo -Catholics who are lovers of the prayer book and the

01:27:22

Anglican patrimony, and I know Anglo -Catholics who are two bad decisions away from joining the ordinary to the personal chair of St.

01:27:30

Peter. So that's kind of a hard thing to pin down for me.

01:27:36

I will say in the Reformed Episcopal Church, though, we still very much are Reformed Episcopalians.

01:27:42

It is required of the clergy to affirm the Declaration of Principles, which were written in response to the

01:27:52

Oxford Movement. So whatever high churchmanship you see in the Reformed Episcopal Church is going to be rooted in our

01:28:01

Reformational heritage. I was just talking with another minister today, or yesterday, and we were talking about some of the concerns we have with some of the

01:28:12

Anglo -Catholic jurisdictions out there in the continuing church. Those are conservative

01:28:18

Anglican churches that aren't associated with the ACNA. And the issue we have with the

01:28:24

Missal being used instead of the Book of Common Prayer, essentially that's a departure from Anglicanism.

01:28:32

The Book of Common Prayer is our patrimony, it's our heritage. To leave that behind is going to be detrimental to our faith and how we live that faith out in our daily lives.

01:28:46

Yes, and we do have an anonymous listener who has a question. Do you have an acceptance of people who may be

01:28:57

Baptists or Presbyterians who are beginning to visit your congregation and may even join it, even though they have not accepted

01:29:08

Anglicanism as a whole, but they just find you to be the most biblically faithful church within a reasonable driving distance, they like your preaching, they view you highly as a shepherd, and they have come to befriend members of the congregation.

01:29:26

They have found a home there. Do they need to be Anglican to actually become members? No, actually our church organist is a

01:29:34

Baptist, and her husband's a Baptist minister. He's retired, and they came to our church because we're a small mission church, church plant, and they wanted to help a small church plant, and so they have been instrumental.

01:29:50

Her husband teaches Sunday school, so I joke we have a Baptist preacher teaching Sunday school.

01:29:57

She plays the organ beautifully. She has enriched our worship so much.

01:30:02

I'm so thankful for her. And like I said, in addition to Dave Waterman, we have a number of Presbyterians who come into our parish regularly.

01:30:13

I have good friendships with your pastor, Johnny Miller, and other

01:30:21

Reformed Baptists in the area. In fact, it's funny, when I came to Good Shepherd two and a half years ago,

01:30:29

I was looking for ministerium meetings to go to, and I went to the local

01:30:34

Harrisburg ministerium, and it was, you know, liberal UCC ministers, and Lutherans, and a couple

01:30:42

Presbyterians, PCUSA Presbyterians, and I hated every second of it, and so I find my most warmest and fondest times of fellowship are with Reformed Baptists.

01:30:57

And that might be because I grew up Baptist myself, but no, we welcome anyone who wants to come and worship with us.

01:31:08

We don't require membership for communion. We practice an open communion to anyone who's baptized in the triune name of God, and as long as they're in good standing with their local church, and we allow them to participate in the life of the church and in the ministry of the church.

01:31:25

And I'm so thankful for those non -Englicans who are a part of our mission in the

01:31:32

Harrisburg area. By the way, since you brought up our mutual friend David Waterman a couple of times,

01:31:39

I want to give a plug to the website of the parachurch organization to which he so enthusiastically belongs,

01:31:49

Christian Businessmen's Connection. Your website is cbmc .com

01:31:56

cbmc .com, which stands for Christian Businessmen's Connection, cbmc .com, and you can find out where the most local branch of that nationwide organization can be found.

01:32:11

They have a specific website right here in this area as well, in Pennsylvania, and you can find out all of that information at cbmc .com.

01:32:23

Let's see, we have another listener. We have,

01:32:29

I was just looking at it, CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. Every time

01:32:37

I mention Anglicanism or Episcopalianism to a friend, even a

01:32:43

Christian brother, the very first response 99 % of the time is, they're just like Roman Catholics, aren't they?

01:32:51

How do you respond to that frequently uttered phrase, at least in my experience? Yes, it's interesting because sometimes

01:32:59

I will get, in the past I've known people who have gone to Anglican churches and then moved into a

01:33:09

Roman Catholic church, and one of the questions we want to ask is, do you actually believe that transubstantiation, devotion to the

01:33:19

Mother of God, prayer to saints, all of those things, they're not found in Anglicanism.

01:33:27

I mean, if you read the book of 39 articles, we call those vain things repugnant to the

01:33:35

Word of God. So, I can see why people think that on the exterior because,

01:33:42

I mean, I vest in a chalice for communion, and we use a chalice, and we do burn incense on Sunday morning, but like I tell people, we have a

01:33:53

Reformed theology, and this is why I attract so many Presbyterians, I think.

01:34:00

I don't think that's an accurate depiction of Anglicanism classically, and like I said,

01:34:08

I understand why people think that, but that's one of the reasons why I come on your show. I want to try and correct some of those misconceptions.

01:34:19

The Roman Catholic Church, if you're looking at the Roman Catholic Church and Anglicanism externally, and just on a surface level, sure,

01:34:30

I can see why people would think that, but when you dig deeper, there's no possible way that that's the case.

01:34:38

In the 1800s, I believe it was Pope Leo X, I forget the Pope's numbers, but he wrote

01:34:45

Apostolicae Curiae, which was a papal bull invalidating Anglican orders, and he invalidated

01:34:52

Anglican orders on the basis of our understanding of the priesthood.

01:34:59

We have a different understanding of the priesthood. We have a different understanding of the sacraments. We are different, very much so, and I think that's something that we need to have more conversations about, because I think people are afraid of us, because externally we look

01:35:19

Roman Catholic. And we joke sometimes about our former presiding bishop,

01:35:26

Bishop Riches, used to talk about Romaphobia. People would just get concerned as soon as you brought a candlestick out, or if you had a processional across.

01:35:37

Those things are just external. The deeper things are very much different. Our friend in Moundville, Alabama, Ted, just chimed in, and he,

01:35:49

I think, is just correcting. I just saw it in front of me. Oh, here it is.

01:35:55

That was Leo VIII who issued that bull. There you go. Thank you.

01:36:00

I appreciate good historians. We have

01:36:06

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who wants to know, is

01:36:12

Jerusalem an Orthodox hymn that we should sing?

01:36:18

I know it has its roots in the Anglican Church in the 20th century, and it was composed by William Blake, but I don't know anything about Mr.

01:36:29

Blake, and the lyrics seem to be strikingly familiar with the heresy of Anglo -

01:36:35

Israelism, but I don't know if I'm overstepping on that. Yes. Well, that's actually one of my favorite hymns.

01:36:46

The folks who hold to Anglo -Israelism use that hymn.

01:36:55

I do not believe that that hymn was written for that purpose.

01:37:02

I suppose we should talk a little bit about the hymn. Sure. In fact, when I was a teenager,

01:37:08

I used to love hearing, of all people, Emerson Lakin Palmer sing that.

01:37:14

Yes, sure. Sure, yes. One of my favorite biblical saints is

01:37:20

Saint Joseph of Arimathea, because in addition to being in ministry,

01:37:27

I also work as a funeral director, and he is the patron saint of funeral directors.

01:37:33

I love his story, but his story is a mystery to us.

01:37:41

There is an old, ancient tradition in the Church that Saint Joseph of Arimathea was actually the uncle of our

01:37:49

Lord, and he was a tin trader, and at that time period, tin came from Britain, and so the legend goes that he took his nephew, our young Lord, on a trip to England to do business, and so that's kind of where that hymn comes from.

01:38:11

There are elements there of the heresy of the whole

01:38:19

Israeli movement in England, the idea that the royal families defended from King David and that they're the true

01:38:30

Israel and all that, that's a part of their nationalism, but I think that's a hogwash.

01:38:42

I don't know any Anglican who actually holds to that, though I'm sure there are some peculiar people in the

01:38:49

Church that do that. That'll probably get me into trouble anyway, but I do love that hymn.

01:38:56

I love the legend, but what I will say about that is that it's a legend. I don't know that there's any biblical basis for it.

01:39:04

Well, there is no biblical basis for it, but I don't know that there's any historical basis for it in reality.

01:39:10

There's something very hauntingly beautiful about hearing a choir sing that. Sure. And I will say that our

01:39:19

Lord is the creator of the universe, and who's to say he didn't at some time in ancient days walk upon England's mountain greens?

01:39:30

But I don't know that that happened in the first century. And in contradiction to the

01:39:36

Mormons, he did not walk the grounds of the North American continent.

01:39:42

No, indeed. Indeed, yes. We're going to go to our final break right now.

01:39:48

It's going to be much more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, please send it in immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:39:55

because we're rapidly running out of time. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:40:03

USA. Only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal or private matter, don't go away. We'll be right back with Rev.

01:40:10

Ricky McCarll. ... ...

01:40:55

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Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

01:53:30

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

01:53:38

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

01:53:46

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

01:53:53

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the

01:54:03

Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

01:54:13

God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

01:54:19

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

01:54:24

Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

01:54:32

Bible. Hi there. My name is Jordan Too and I am the Executive Director of the Baptist Publishing House.

01:54:37

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound

01:54:43

Bible study resources. Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor and for good reason.

01:54:49

We are Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the

01:54:56

Word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

01:55:03

May God bless you. And Reverend Ricky McCarl, if you could summarize what you most want etched upon the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

01:55:14

Yes, I've given some thought to that, and I just want everyone to know that the whole situation in Anglicanism is a little bit more complicated than meets the eye, and I want people not to give up on us because I think what we have to offer the

01:55:30

Reformed world is rich, and there are still those of us in the church who are fighting the good fight and standing firm for the faith, so don't give up hope on Anglicanism and continue to pray for all of us as we go through these intramural battles in the church, and especially pray for us at Good Shepherd Anglican Mission in Harrisburg.

01:56:00

Amen, and we have time for one more brief question. I have an

01:56:06

Anglican minister friend who will only use the

01:56:12

Book of Common Prayer from the 16th century. I believe it may be 1552.

01:56:20

He says he refuses to use the 1928 version. Is there any reason for this?

01:56:26

Yes, there are some Anglicans who believe that there are latent forms of Roman Catholicism in the 1928 prayer book.

01:56:36

This is a difficult question for such a short period of time. The 1928 prayer book comes to us from the

01:56:44

Episcopal Church of Scotland, the Scottish Episcopal Church. It has in the communion, the

01:56:52

Eucharistic service, the invocation, which the 1662 prayer book leaves out.

01:56:59

The invocation asks the Holy Spirit to come and bless the bread and the wine.

01:57:07

It's kind of a redundancy, but some Reformed Anglicans don't prefer it.

01:57:15

The official prayer book of the Reformed Episcopal Church is the 1662 prayer book.

01:57:23

Some of our parishes used the 1928 because that was the prayer book so widely used in the

01:57:29

American church. I understand the position on the 1662.

01:57:38

I'll just say I affirm the 1662 prayer book as a formulary.

01:57:43

It's a confessional document. It's the

01:57:49

Anglican prayer book. Well, we are out of time. I want to make sure that our listeners have your website once again,

01:57:56

GoodShepherdAnglican .net. GoodShepherdAnglican .net,

01:58:02

and that is the website of Good Shepherd Anglican Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I want to thank you so much,

01:58:10

Reverend Ricky McCarl, for being such an excellent guest today, a very informative guest. I look forward to your return to the program.

01:58:18

I look forward to seeing you. I hope that you are able to squeeze into your schedule the upcoming Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon in Loisville, Pennsylvania, in Perry County.

01:58:30

That's Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. I'd love to see you and the men from Good Shepherd there in attendance.

01:58:39

And we typically do have several Anglican ministers show up at these events.

01:58:47

And I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

01:58:53

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater