August 4, 2022 Show with Rev. Ricky McCarl on “An Anglican’s Critical Observations of the Conversion of Beth Moore to Anglicanism”

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Anybody who has listened to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio long enough knows that I love to have the opportunity to interview Anglican ministers when they are biblically sound and faithful to Christ and his word, and it is my pleasure to do so again today.

Beth Moore, Anglican Identity, and the Problem of Conversion for the Wrong Reasons

Today we have as our guest, a returning guest, Reverend Ricky McCarl. He is a hospice chaplain and vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we're going to be discussing something fairly controversial today.

We're going to be hearing an Anglican's critical observations of the conversion of renowned Southern Baptist author and public speaker, Beth Moore, to Anglicanism, and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons and in name only.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Ricky McCarl.

Well, hello, how are you?

I'm doing fantastic, brother. And I'm amazed that whenever I have conversations with evangelicals of any background, they could be Reformed Baptists such as myself, they could be Presbyterians, they could just be from the broader spectrum of evangelicalism, they are in a state of total mystery when it comes to Anglicanism.

They don't know what to think. And obviously it's likely because, as you well know, there is a wide spectrum of ministers and churches and congregational or congregants, I should say, who are from a wide spectrum of theology and ideology and practice and so on.

So because of that, tell our listeners about Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and be as descriptive as you possibly can.

Sure. Well, I will say that some Episcopal churches, you know, a lot of those different churches, it took a lot of time and effort.

Yes, I am a firm believer in exclusively male headship in the church and male headship in the home. And I'm always mystified when I have the occasion to meet from the Anglican Communion men that I agree with on nearly every single issue except for perhaps a small handful of things that are uniquely Anglican.

But as far as the scriptures are concerned, we agree on nearly everything, and I, being a Reformed Baptist, would really only find objection to the 39 articles in the area of baptism.

Sure.

But then they will tell me that they are egalitarian as far as leadership in the church, and that just absolutely blows me away. I can't understand that.

Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, that's... I do know...

And by the way, I sometimes, and I know that some of my listeners may be tired of hearing me repeat myself, I sometimes rib my Anglican friends and say that I actually believe in all of the 39 articles of religion because it doesn't, or they, don't actually mention infants in regard to baptism.

It just says children. So if a child repents and believes, I am more than happy to see that child baptized.

There you go. I actually had a funny story with the 39 articles. It was a Presbyterian PCUSA church are you with? And usually I'll just say, you know, ways of pronouncing that. But I said, well, I'm an Episcopal minister.

And he said, well, I used to love the Episcopal church when they affirmed the 39 articles. And I said, well, actually, I'm a Reformed Episcopalian, and we do affirm the 39 articles. And it turned out he knew all about the REC and was a big supporter of our seminary in the past.

And you never know when you're going to run into a friend.

Yeah, amen. In fact, one of my dearest friends who is now in heaven, Dr. Robert J. Cameron, he was a graduate of Reformed Episcopal seminary. He eventually became an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor, but he was for quite some time a Reformed Episcopal minister.

And just to confirm a little bit about the Oxford movement, since you mentioned it before, about how the Reformed Episcopal church denomination founded, or why, in protest to the Oxford movement. And I know that the Oxford movement shares a lot in common with the Puseyites and the Tractarians, being very favorable to nearly everything Roman Catholic with the exception of the primacy of the papacy and the infallibility of the papacy.

But that's specifically why, if I'm not mistaken, the Reformed Episcopal church began in protest to that growing influence of Anglo-Catholic theology and practice into the Episcopal church. Am I right?

Yeah, there's actually a good...

Wow, I've got to get a hold of that book.

Yeah.

And just to quickly remind my listeners, one of the reasons why I love interviewing biblically faithful Anglicans and Episcopalians when I have the opportunity is that my father's side of the family was Episcopalian primarily.

My mother was Roman Catholic. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church. And my father converted to Catholicism when I was about 17, and most of his family, his brothers and cousins and so on, remained Episcopalian.

And I remember my Uncle Donald, who passed, I think, a decade or more ago. He lived up in Washington State, and he was so disgusted by the liberalism that had destroyed to a great degree the Episcopal church that he was contemplating converting to Roman Catholicism.

And I remember I was going on a massive search for biblically faithful Episcopal parishes as close to him as possible and could not find one. And what began in me a burden to make sure that people were aware of biblically sound, thoroughly Protestant, biblically faithful, Christ-honoring Episcopal and Anglican churches before they made the leap into Rome, which I believe is a very sad state indeed.

I would consider it apostasy, but I try to let people aware that there are biblically faithful Episcopalians and Anglicans out there, if you do enough searching, because I know that there are people who do love the liturgy and so on.

But I just want to give our listeners your website in case they either live in Harrisburg or are visiting Harrisburg or if they have friends and family in Harrisburg, they want to either visit themselves or have their loved ones visit this church.

Goodshepherdanglican .net, Good Shepherd Anglican. Well, you, some time ago actually, and we didn't have the opportunity to get you on the program until today, but some time ago, you wanted to address, as I've already mentioned, your critical observations of the conversion of renowned Southern Baptist author and public speaker, Beth Moore, to Anglicanism, and also a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons in name only.

And if you could, for our listeners who are unfamiliar with Beth Moore, who is she?

Yes, I've been concerned about Beth Moore for 20 years. It's kind of weird to be able to say that for 20 years, but I guess I'm not a pastor. But like I said, I think what she, per DNA, Anglo-Catholic, I just generally have some, and truly, this isn't about her.

This is about any idea that Anglicans don't really have a theology. You can mail full baggage with them. I mean, I know for an Anglican, not so much for a Reformed Baptist like yourself, but for an Anglican, that's a thing.

Really? An ordained Anglican minister, rector?

Yes, there's a couple floating around, but they're a minority for sure.

Are they independent ministers? Because there are Anglican churches that are not officially connected to any...

No, they would be a part of the ACNA. I will say Anglican churches that aren't connected with an Anglican jurisdiction, I don't really know how that works. But I do know that there are some independent Episcopal and Anglican churches out there in the world.

I just don't know.

Well, I know one of the issues that seriously concerned many conservative evangelicals over Beth Moore was that she had become full-blown egalitarian and publicly identified as such, where women have the full right to be leaders over men and teachers of men in the church.

What else can you say about Beth Moore that would ring any alarm bells?

My biggest concern with her, too political here that I'm trying to make, but what I will say, a number of people who voted in that election, the 16, but that's an accusation she has raised a couple of times in her tweets and her online presence.

I find that a little concerning. I find that rhetoric troubling, and I see that in other places, not just with Beth Moore. I mean, we can talk about David French, thought leader, Russell Moore for that, any number of former evangelicals that we can talk about that has leveled that accusation against conservatives.

Now, what do you see as a danger from Beth Moore coming into the fold of the ACNA when they already have a practice of ordination?

Well, it is my understanding that that diocese does not ordain women, that that parish does not ordain women. I don't know who the bishop is. He's egalitarian, but then you've got those dioceses that do.

If we keep bringing egalitarian...

The Difference Between Growth for the Right Reasons and Growth for the Wrong Reasons

Well, we're going to our first break right now, and if anybody has a question for Pastor Ricky McCarl, please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, perhaps. You are in a congregation where the primary teachings may be in conflict with my guest's teachings, or you might even be a minister in that you are beginning a journey of theological transformation, and you are beginning to question what the other leaders of that congregation or even denomination...

And you don't want to draw attention to yourself. You don't want to draw attention to your identity. I can understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but please, if it's just a general question, give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We are going to be right back, right after these messages, with more of Reverend Ricky McCarl of Good Shepherd Anglican Church and our topic for the day, which is, in Anglicans, critical observations of the conversion of renowned Southern Baptist author and public speaker, Beth Moore, to Anglicanism, and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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And that was the voice of my very dear friend, Reverend Roger Salter, another Anglican. He is the rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a biblically faithful church strictly adhering to the 39 Articles wholeheartedly to anyone.

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We're now back with my guest today, Reverend Ricky McCarl, who is vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we are discussing an Anglican's critical observations of the conversion of Southern Baptist author and public speaker Beth Moore to Anglicanism and a general assessment of those who convert for erroneous reasons in name only.

Now, there are congregations and even denominations who are so excited about numeric growth that they really don't care about who joins their ranks, just as long as they see more people in their pews and more people putting money in the plate, and perhaps even especially if it's somebody that's a well-known speaker, that may draw more people into that congregation or denomination.

Why is it that you are not among those that loves to see, quote-unquote, conversions for the sake of growth in the communion where you.

Serve? Well, I think I'm really happy with, you know, my small little tiny parish. I guess I tend to escape something, but because of the liturgy that attracts people to the, you know, but I mean, I don't think that it would be accurate to say I'm not concerned about growth, people coming for the right reasons.

Right, right, and I didn't mean to imply that.

You weren't concerned about growth. There are some people who could care less. And I have told people, I have told Roman Catholic people who have begun bouncing around visiting evangelical churches, I have asked them, why are you visiting evangelical churches?

And I love it when I hear that people are coming under the conviction of God, that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, or they hear, because the ministers there really open up and teach the Bible, where you only hear a five-minute homily in the Catholic Church.

Those kinds of things I'm happy to hear, but one should never convert purely, or even predominantly, because of where a certain, or should I say, how a certain congregation makes them feel. Obviously good feelings are a great part of it, to feel welcome and loved and cared for, that's a good thing, and that's a good element of a church to be manifesting when they have visitors and so on.

But when that's the only reason, you know, I love this church, I want to join it, because they have a potluck lunch every second Sunday of the month, or whatever it is. They have so many programs for the kids, and you know, you could go on and on, but their concerns have nothing to do with salvific reasons, with major biblical reasons, with major doctrinal reasons that may even have eternity attached to them.

Does it concern you that there may be a lot of folks who love the smells and bells, who love the way they feel when they go to an Anglican church, and I'm not sure where on the ladder of low versus high church, maybe you can give us a little more detail on that, you are, and your congregation, a good shepherd, but there are people who, there are aesthetic reasons why they change churches or even convert that really have nothing to do with their soul, and I was wondering if that concerns you, that there is a phenomenon where people just love the mystique and the religiosity or the feeling of being in a church that is more highly liturgical.

First off, I love a good potluck. I am a retentive man, I do. I mean, I'm preaching through Revelation right now, and we're just in the beginning phases of the book, and one of the things that I highlighted here recently in a sermon was that love for the 1928 prayer book or the 1662 prayer book isn't enough.

There needs to be, you need to have a fervent love for Christ and Christ's truth, and one of the core things about Anglicanism, classical Anglicanism, without feelings and emotions in the Gospel, the Reformed Episcopal Church gets accused of that a lot.

I like to tell people we are Anglican, the feelings that people get, that's just not enough. Be practicing Anglicanism, because the whole point of Anglicanism is by the Apostles. And I think that's probably my biggest concern here, is that you see a lot of people who practice Anglicanism because they have preconceived notions.

And I have met individuals who will, even though they believe in the Gospel, even though they are apparently, by their thoughts and words and deeds, are regenerate, they will join themselves with even a liberal Episcopalian church purely because they love the liturgy.

And one person who has really made that clear, I don't know him personally, I love his show most of the time, vast majority of the time, but Tucker Carlson on Fox News, he is known for making fun and even mocking Episcopalianism, and yet he remains an Episcopalian because he loves the liturgy.

That was his only reason that he gets it, obviously makes him feel good, makes him feel religious or something. But first of all, why don't you provide for our listeners the main tenets that you think must exist within either a congregation or parish or denomination for it to be rightly called Anglican?

Right, and I think that's a very important question. I think that speaks to our identity. And I know people get tired of hearing about the debate about Anglican identity, but I mean that's something that we need to nail down.

The Episcopalian identity is contingent upon, and earlier in the program you said something about the Anglican Communion. I want to make it clear that the Anglican Church of North America and the Reformed Episcopaly, the Archbishop of Canterbury recognizes us clergy, not part of the Anglican Communion.

And I would go so far as to say, what's the point?

Perhaps I used the wrong phrase when I was speaking of communion. I did not mean the official Church of England.

Right, so we do have connections with GAFCON, the Global Anglican Futures Conference, which is Africa and Asia, the Middle East, who are biblically Orthodox. Our connection there, but again, Anglican Communion does not.

I don't think that that's accurately depicting Anglicanism. That thing that makes an Anglican an Anglican is the formularies. The Book of Common Prayer, the Ordinal of 1662, specifically the 1662 Prayer Book, the 39 Articles, those are the things that make us Anglican.

Those are our patrimony. Those are the things that the Anglican Reformers handed down to us. And I think a lot of churches that call themselves Anglican have significantly departed from those things. And the problem we see in liberal Anglicanism, and even to some extent with Friends, but I'm going to go there, the formularies, historic documents, that destabilizes the church.

And so what has happened in a special way, we have a confessional document so we can believe whatever we want. And they might even use church fathers to justify their position. They might use Second Vatican Council theories and ideas for doing things.

I mean, the 1979 Prayer Book used in most of the Episcopal churches, it's a nightmare. But I think that has a lot to do with why we are where we are today.

And you mentioned before that there are people who you believe have converted or want to convert to Anglicanism, thinking that they will be receiving and experiencing something entirely different than the reality.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how you mean.

Well, I believe you said before, there are people who have wrong expectations when they convert to Anglicanism. They're thinking of something in their mind, a picture they got somehow that is false. If you could maybe give us a few reasons why that would be.

One of the things I have is one of these things, this idea that evangelicals dream up, how Anglicanism is the reformed. But there are a lot of people who think that Anglicanism is the reformed.

Right, often phrased the via media.

Right, where the via media between Lutheranism and Anglicanism was formulated. And so you'd have a wide variety. You'd have Lutheran Anglicans, high churchmen, and you'd have reformed Anglicans, low churchmen in the Church of England.

And the Elizabethan settlement is so wide, you really get, quite frankly, confusion, more so than a streamlined... I think that's a big part of the problem. The late Thomas McKenzie, in his book The Anglican Way, I think that book misrepresents a lot of what Anglicanism is, liturgy in the night.

I think what those books do is they muddy the waters a little bit about what actual Anglicanism is. And so you get people, and I'll get them in the parish, all these preconceived notions because of all these multiple voices, and they end up being, in time, dissatisfied with what they are.

It's not what they expected it to be. They were expecting Roman Catholic light, praying to the saints, and all of those things. And then they find out that we don't have a monstrance in the 39 articles, and they find that a disappointment.

By the way, does the Episcopal Church USA, the main line largest denier, identifying itself as Episcopalian, which I don't know if I could say with absolute certainty that the majority of it is apostate, but certainly a significant element of it is, do they still on paper claim to adhere to the 39 articles?

Because I believe at one time, to be ordained into the Episcopal Church, you had to pledge some kind of an allegiance to those articles, even after they had become sort of a relic amongst Episcopalians.

I have not ever been evangelical, but I can't speak to whether they still require affirmation to the 39 articles for ordination. I do know I had to sign a document stating that I affirmed the 39-formed Episcopal Church, but I can't speak for the Episcopal Church.

What I will say about the Episcopal Church is that they are orthodox clergy. I mean, recently, they refused to receive...

Yes. In fact, could you pick up on Reverend Love, because we have to go to the midway break right now, but pick up right when we return.

Sure.

Okay, folks, this is a longer than normal break. Please be patient, and send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Ricky McCarl right after these messages from our sponsor.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nessie Allen 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.