Matt Slick Live: September 19, 2024

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The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

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When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live! For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. Welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live!

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If you want to give me a call, it's easy. All you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276 and I want to hear from you.

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Give me a call. You can also send me an email, if you want, to info at karm .org,

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info at karm .org, and just put in the subject line, radio comment, radio question, something like that, and we can get to it.

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All right, so today's date is 9 -19, September 19th, 2024 for the podcasters.

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We've done, over the years, I've been doing radio for now, I don't know, 20, 21, or 22 years,

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I can't remember. And so I've done, I think the estimate was 6 ,000 shows, 5 ,000, 4 ,000,

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I don't know, just a lot. And, you know, it's what it is, so, doing a lot of work, and if you want to give me a call, like I said, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276,

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I want to hear from you, give me a call, and that's that. Okay, so there we go.

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Well, let's see, got that going, got this going, and not sure what's going why what, so I'm not going to worry about that right now.

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We don't have any callers coming, I'm going to get to some of the emails that people have sent me, and I got a hate mail, too,

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I got a hate mail, I did, I got a hate mail, and tomorrow is hate mail day,

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Friday, so I'm looking forward to it, I'm so tempted to do it now, but I'm not going to. Alright, so what

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I'm going to do is do that tomorrow, looking forward to it, love hate mail. Alright, I think that is it, so someone says the sound is a little bit low, but everything is right, everything is good, and should be fine, so just testing everything, and like I said, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276, you can also email me info at karm .org,

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put in our subject line, radio comment, radio question. Alright, we got Alberto calling, and Mike, yes, everything is right,

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I don't know what's going on, I don't know why it's not working, folks, but it is, everything is set right. Alright, this is what it is, so I'll have to work on that later during the break.

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That's better? Oh, okay, good, alright, well, that's a good sound. Alright, let's get to Alberto, from Georgia, Alberto, welcome, you are on the air.

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Yeah, yes, good evening, my question is, I hear a lot of pastors and Christians say that Jesus died for a past, present, and future sin, but can we actually find that phrase or that verse in the

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Bible? No, we don't find any place that it says that Jesus died for past, present, and future sins.

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But what we do find is that He bore our sin in His body on the cross, and logically, if He did not bear the sin of those in the past and those in the future, then they can't be paid for.

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So it logically is necessary that Jesus paid for our sins, past, present, and future, from Him, past, present, and future, and for all of our sins, because all of our sins presently today, are for the future situation to Christ, so, okay?

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Because He's the eternal high priest who lives forever, that's why it applies to that, basically.

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Well, He's the high priest, out of His priesthood is why we have an intercessor, we have an atonement.

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But the specific issue of whether or not He was bearing the sin of all people at all time, that's a question.

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Now, I don't believe He bore all sin of all people, for one reason, is in 1

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Samuel 3 .14, God says that He has sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquities of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.

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So, when we talk about this online, in chat rooms, and people tell me that Jesus bore the sin of every individual,

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I raise that verse up to them and say, what do you do with that? And the only halfway competent response they have is, it's just talking about during the animal sacrifice period, but it doesn't say that.

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They have to change the wording to make it fit their thesis. Okay, go ahead. But for me,

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I never looked at it that way, that Jesus died for everybody's past. I always looked at it, once you accept the

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Lord as your personal Lord, then He died for my past, and my present, and future sin, as a believer, not as an unbeliever.

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That's why I would look at it that way. Well, that would be a problem. That would be a problem. So, I need to address this, and people need to hear this.

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The sacrifice of Christ is not made effective based on what we do. It's made effective based on what

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Jesus did. Colossians 2 .14 says, He canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was hostile to us.

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He took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. So, the canceling of the sin debt was done at the cross.

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It's not canceled when you believe. Now, this is really shocking to a lot of people, because they're not familiar with biblical theology and the nature and extent of the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

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In Colossians 2 .14, He canceled that sin debt at the cross. It's not canceled when you believe.

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You're justified when you believe. Logic requires further questioning, to say that if He canceled the sin debt for people at the cross, that's what

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Colossians 2 .14 says. And 1 Peter 2 .24 says, He bore our sin in His body on the cross.

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So, He bore our sins. He died with our sin there. The atonement is paid for, and the canceling of the sin debt is done at the cross.

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But most people, because they're humanist in their philosophy and have been taught this from churches, from diapers on up, they teach that once you, in your wisdom and your ability, you choose

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Jesus, then the cross becomes powerful and effective. And that's humanist philosophy, and that needs to be just buried.

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It needs to be able to get rid of that. But this necessitates a doctrine that most people are not familiar with.

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And this necessitates the idea that Jesus only legally bore the sin of the elect. He came down for the ones that He came to cancel the sin debt for.

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It's canceled. And then when He grants that we have faith, Leviticus 1 .29, that faith is in Christ, John 6 .29,

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and then, therefore, when we have faith, we're justified, Romans 5 .1. So, this makes perfect sense biblically, but most people don't want to have that because they believe in the blonde -haired, blue -eyed,

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Caucasian surfer Jesus dressed in a woman's nightgown asking permission for you and your wisdom to let

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Him into your heart. And this is a false doctrine that's taught in a lot of churches today. So, you know, yeah, okay.

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Okay, I've got another quick question. I know I've got another quick question, that's good. I know we've discussed it before, but the wine,

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I spoke to other pastors, they say that in the Greek, that when Jesus, when He drank wine in the

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Last Supper, it was just grape juice, you know, squeezing the grape juice from the grapes. And it was not fermented in the process.

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Like, when Jesus created the first wedding, the wedding that came in, when He created wine, and it was the last wine, the wine tasted, oh, that's the best wine we ever tasted.

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But also, I hear other people say, well, Jesus had a habit of drinking wine daily or as a part of His life.

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Now, let me just touch on this. Okay, look, look, He didn't make...it wasn't grape juice. And the teetotalers who say that Jesus didn't make wine and that Communion Supper wasn't wine, and John 2, when

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Adam and Cain wasn't wine, I wish they would just stop talking. I wish they would just stop it.

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It's ridiculous. So, when you go to Proverbs 31 .6, it says, give strong drink to him who's perishing and wine to him whose life is bitter.

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Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more. Obviously, this is alcoholic beverage that's being spoken of in Proverbs 31, and that's a recommendation that's used as a medicinal form.

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In John 3, you'll notice, in John 3, in John 2, on the third day.

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Now, if you go to Genesis 3, and you look at the third day, that's when the plants were created. So, on the third day is when

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He was there and He created wine. The head waiter is going to be there because he's responsible for administering the alcoholic beverage called wine that would go out to the guests.

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You didn't do grape juice. You couldn't have grape juice. And the reason you could not have grape juice is because in order to have a wedding, you had to plan it in the future.

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It wasn't just, hey, tomorrow, let's get married, and let's just go to the store and buy, you know, refrigerated gallons of grape juice.

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It's not how it works. The pots were like 30 gallons, and there were six of them. This is a humongous amount of so -to -speak grape juice.

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You don't just produce that in one or two or three days. It has to be produced over a long period of time.

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And so, that meant then it was fermenting, which means it was alcoholic. That's just how it was.

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And if it wasn't fermenting, it would go bad because alcohol was one of the preservatives used to keep water pure, and wine was one of the things you could drink.

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And it was very, very, very low alcoholic content. But you could drink it all day and not really feel much, okay, unless you really slammed it, then you could.

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And they had, I'm sure they had stronger wines, too. So, when they had a wedding, one of the things you do is provide wine for the guests.

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It was real wine. These were Jews, and Jesus is there, and his first miracle is making wine.

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And just as God made things in maturity, the plants were there, the sun was there, the mountains were there, it didn't evolve over a long period of time.

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Christ also, in maturity, created the wine, and it's called wine. It's not called grape juice. I wish these guys would stop talking like this.

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I wish the people that make Jesus into the blonde -haired, blue -eyed, Caucasian surfer dude who's a teetotaler,

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I wish they would stop because the real Jesus, they might not let in their church, you know? They could see him walking in with a glass of wine.

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Sorry, you can't come in here. I wish they would just stop. What about Proverbs 23, verse 19 and 20, where it says,

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Hear, my son, and be wise, and guide your heart in the way. Do not mix with wine -biggers or with gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and drunkenness will cause a man with rags.

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Yes, don't get drunk. Don't be a drunkard. Don't do that. That's what the Bible's saying. It doesn't say you can't have alcohol.

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Just don't get drunk. Yeah, but it says, do not mix. Yeah, but it says, do not. But it also gives you, it says, do not mix with wine -biggers.

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Don't hang around with wine -biggers. Wine -biggers, no, those are the people who were addicted or alcoholics.

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They were doing this kind of thing. They were partiers. They were gluttons. Don't hang around those kind of people. That's different than...

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What about Proverbs 20, verse 1? The same thing,

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Proverbs 20, verse 1. It says, wine is a mocker, strong drink, a brawler.

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Whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. The point is, you can have alcoholic beverages.

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Don't be drunk with it. That's all that's going on, okay? So, again,

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I wish the teetotallers out there, I wish the people who have Jesus being more holy than Jesus actually was, would stop teaching this.

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It was just grape juice stuff. It is ridiculous to say that, all right? It is.

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All right. All right, thank you, sir. God bless you. Keep up the great work. Yeah. All right, man, we'll go.

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God bless. All right, all right. Now, next caller is Jeff from North Carolina.

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Jeff, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Hi.

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I was wondering if you could help me or give me a little better explanation of, in Matthew 16, and then again in Matthew 18, talks about whatever we find on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever we loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

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If you could give me an explanation, what exactly does that mean? Yes, we had the break coming up, so when we get back,

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I'll tackle it, okay? We'll talk about it, and I hope that makes sense. Okay. Thank you.

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So hold on. Okay. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned, and we'll talk about this important topic.

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We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

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Let's get back on with Jeff. As soon as he's activated by the producer, we'll get back on the air.

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If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

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Jeff, you're on the air, buddy. Okay, ready? Yeah. Thanks, Matt.

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All right. So these are verses that the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox use frequently because they like to say that their church and their priesthood has the authority to bind and loose.

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Now, if we look at the context, he says, I also, this is Matthew 16, 18,

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I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I'll build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

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I will give you the kingdoms of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed.

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Now, who's he talking to? Peter. Is he talking to all the priests and the popes and everything else that come down the line?

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No, he's not. He's talking to Peter. Furthermore, it says what you bind shall have been bound.

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This is a future, shall, and have been bound is what's called a passive participle.

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Now, I'm going to explain a little bit. So, what you loose will have been loosed.

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What you bind will have been bound. So, this is really an interesting construction that Jesus is talking about.

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When you do something, it will have been done already is what's going on in the Greek because the passive voice means it's already passed, it's passed.

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And I believe, let me get this straight. Make sure everything's right. It is the perfect, yeah, it's the perfect passive.

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Perfect tense in Greek is I have been. Pluperfect is

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I had been. So, I had been walking was doing something in the past tense that's completed in the past,

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I had been walking. Passive, excuse me, the perfect tense is past action continuing into the present.

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I have been walking. So, what it's saying here when it's passive voice, it means it's happening to you.

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And it's a participle which means it's continuing, ing, walking, talking, binding.

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And it's perfect in that it means it has been done and is in the effect of being done now.

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Which means when you do something, it's already having been done. So, this is what's going on in the

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Greek, okay, and we don't get this so much in the English unless you use a good translation like the NASB.

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So, literally last night I was talking about this with some Catholics. And this Catholic was saying, he was bringing up this verse as a matter of fact, you know, what we do, we have the authority to have been.

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I said, let me ask you, are you saying a priest in your church has the authority to forgive sins?

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And they said, yes. And he said, yes. I said, okay, is God himself obligated to forgive what the priest forgives?

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That's the question. Because they are saying that their priesthood has the authority to bind and loose.

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Well then the question is, is God obligated to bind and loose according to what the priest says? You know, obviously the answer would be no.

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Well then, what's going on for real? It's that, well, when you do it, it's already been done.

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And he's talking about Peter. When you, Peter, go forward and you say, look, your sins are forgiven, they already have been forgiven.

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Just like you, if you were to lead someone to the Lord, and you say, your sins are all forgiven, they have been forgiven.

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It's not that you're doing it, but you're proclaiming what has already been done in Christ. That's what's going on.

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Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. Matt, thank you so much.

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I really love your show. Praying for it. Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you a lot. Thank you so much. You're welcome so much.

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Well, God bless, buddy. All right. All right. All right. Now, let's get to the next longest is

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Luke from Washington, D .C. Luke, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt.

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Hello. Hi, Matt. How are you? I'm doing fine, brother. I'm doing fine. So what do you got, man?

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Yeah. The question is about the blessed assurance. But some Catholics say, what is meant by being saved, being saved, will be saved, according to some

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Christian groups. They don't have any blessed assurance. So how do you differentiate their view and...

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Wait, wait, wait. You're asking different questions. You're asking different questions. You're combining different questions, so I'm confused.

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What would be your single question you want to go to? Would they go to another question? What would that be? What is meant by being saved, being saved, will be saved?

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Being saved is used in different contexts in the Bible, and it means, as people are being saved.

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And we can look back and we can say people are being saved constantly. When it says, I am saved, it's talking about the individual who is in that present state of salvation.

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And the future will be saved is talking about those who will come to faith later on to the preaching, the teaching of the gospel.

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So justification is in this past, present, and future context, as God works through all people in all time.

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That's what's going on. Okay. So it's not like he justified once and then he was saved.

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It's not a process, right? Correct. Salvation is not a process.

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Yes. Our salvation is not a process.

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Anyone who says it's a process that you have to go through is a false convert teaching a false gospel. We are justified immediately upon faith, and upon that justification we are saved from the righteous judgment of God.

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This occurs by faith alone in Christ alone. But the false religions of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, also

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Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy all teach that salvation is a process that you go through over a long period of time as you hope to achieve and gain what you have to do.

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And this is a false gospel. It's a false gospel because it means that the blood of Christ is not sufficient in and of itself to save us.

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We have to add to what Jesus did. And this is what Satan wants you to believe. So Satan is alive and well in Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Islam and a lot of Protestant churches, too. OK. So Luke 13, 23, how do you explain

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Luke 13, 23? Luke 13, 23, let's see, 13, 23.

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And someone said to him, Lord, are there just a few who are being saved? And he said to them, strive to enter.

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And there's a few are being saved. Yeah, just a few. You know who are being saved, the few, that's who's being saved, the few.

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The same thing in First Corinthians 118. OK, the same thing, the word of the cross to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved is the power of God.

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He's just speaking generically about the Christian group as a whole, those of us who are being saved. That's all.

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OK, thank you. No problemo. OK, all right.

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OK, God bless. All right. Now, next longest waiting is

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Rebecca from Salt Lake City. Rebecca, welcome here on air. Rebecca, are you there,

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Rebecca? Hello, Rebecca. Oh, we'll have to get back.

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To her after the break. Are you there, Matt? Yes, I am. But we have a break right now. So hold on.

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I can just hold on. Hold on. Yes, I can hear you. Hold on. We have a break. We have a break. We're back after these messages.

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Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Rebecca from Salt Lake City.

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Rebecca, you're on the air. Hello, Matt. Hi. Can you hear me?

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Yes, I can. OK, first of all, I talked to you a long time ago and I said,

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Pastor Slick, and you said you weren't a pastor. But then I talked to or I've heard that.

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OK, are you? No, I used to be, but not not now. OK, because I heard you in the past talk to other people when you said you were pastoring.

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I was a pastor back in the 90s. Now I do apologetics. I've been working on my website for next month.

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It'll be twenty nine years. So that's wonderful. OK, well, you're still working with the

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Lord. Anyway, I wanted to ask you, does Jesus justify some people by faith, but he doesn't justify others?

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Now, can you explain that? That's correct. Only those who have faith are only those who have faith are justified.

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Yeah. OK. OK, so if. Then if they repent, they're justified.

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Nope. Right. Not if they repent. No repentance doesn't justify that.

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Yes. Repentance does not justify us. Faith in Christ is what justifies us.

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So isn't that what repenting is? No, no, no, no. Repenting. You can have an atheist who stops lying.

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Repentance doesn't mean that he's saved. You can have a Mormon stop lying. Doesn't mean he's saved. Or Roman Catholics stop lying.

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Doesn't mean they're saved. OK, so we're justified by their point.

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Yes, we're justified by faith. And God grants that we have faith. Likens one twenty nine.

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And that faith is in the true and living God in the person of Christ. John six, twenty nine. This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has.

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So the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Roman, they don't have the true faith in the true

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Christ and the Catholics, though they in the Eastern Orthodox, so they know who the true Christ is.

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They don't believe in justification by faith alone in Christ alone. They they have a different gospel. And same as works, they do works more.

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OK. All right. So then also if the baddest man in the world, like Hitler, if he if he repented, that wouldn't mean anything.

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He would have to love Jesus as a savior. He would have to believe and trust in the

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Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins and receive Christ. OK, that's what justifies.

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And then repentance is granted to us by God. Philippians two, I mean, second Timothy two, twenty five, twenty four and twenty five.

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So he would have to justify him even if he didn't want to. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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You can't come to Christ unless it's granted to you by the father. John six, sixty. Right. And Philippians one, twenty nine says to you, it has been granted to believe.

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So you can't come to Christ unless God the father grants it and you're granted to have faith, then that comes from God.

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And it's not a not an issue if he wouldn't want to justify what he has to because you believe that doesn't work like that.

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OK. OK, so it's not of us going to him. It's Jesus just coming to us.

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There you go. That's confusing to me when it says that Jesus is knock and it shall be open to you.

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We can't be open to anybody, anybody who believes. Yes. Oh, OK.

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So only on that premise. OK. Everyone who believes will be saved. Everyone who has faith will be justified.

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OK. That's what the Bible says. All right. Oh, OK. So when he believes in Jesus, then he's justified.

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That's correct. That's right. OK, darling. Well, you have a good game.

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You certainly have qualified that a little bit more in my mind.

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I will think about it. Thank you so much for your time and bless you. OK, you too. God bless.

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Thanks. All right. Well, let's see. Next longest waiting is

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Eric from Charlotte, North Carolina. Eric, welcome. You're on the air. All right. Thank you,

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Matt. Thank you for your ministry. Hey, praise God. Praise him. Oh, I hope

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I don't make you upset. So what I do is sometimes. Yeah, I don't

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I don't want to make you upset. I don't. It's all right. I'm already laughing. It'll be fun. Go ahead.

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Well, because I ask questions and sometimes I ask questions that are so obvious. The answer is when people see it, it gets them angry if they don't want to change their position.

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I certainly do that with Jehovah's Witnesses. I'll ask them questions and they don't if they don't like it, they just avoid, avoid or evade the answer because it's obvious where it would lead from.

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Yeah. So so just understand. I'm just being kind here. But anyway.

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OK. You said you'd get upset with kind of upset or whatever word with the teetotalers.

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You talk about the wine. I get miffed with the people who stop it, stop it, stop it.

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You know, stop teaching stuff like that. It's not biblical. Well, yeah, I get I get I get miffed with them, too.

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But I also get miffed with those who say it wasn't. Great Jews, I'm going to tell you why.

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OK, so but to do so, I got to ask. OK, so I got to ask you some questions.

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All right. So here's the first question. Do you believe that Jesus can make a wine that can't make you drunk?

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Yes or no? I don't know if that's possible. No, no, you don't.

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Well, well, let me explain. Because wine, by definition, has alcohol in it.

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Otherwise, it's not wine. So alcohol has a natural result upon us. So how could he make something that doesn't have a necessary effect?

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That's one of the properties of what that is. That's it's a logic issue. Well, well, the logic is this.

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There's several. What defines wine according to man and their standard is alcohol.

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People don't understand that grape juice can have natural alcohol.

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So here's the question. Here's the point. The question is, what percentage of alcohol is by the government, for example, classified makes it classified as a wine?

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It's seven percent. Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Oh, OK, sure.

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You have a question, OK? Because we're going to talk about percentages and we're going to go in circles. You have a specific question of the problem.

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Well, I'm trying to ask. Well, I do. But the problem is you you sort of limited the way the question could be asked because you're thinking that no alcohol, you know, can't be in.

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And so the degree of alcohol would not classify. Look, you can you can get hyper technical and say there's one molecule of alcohol.

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And you can say there's one molecule of alcohol in a, you know, in grape juice.

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And then can that get us drunk? We're not talking about stuff like that. It's not what the Bible is getting at. The Bible is getting out.

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But Jesus made wine and it was really alcoholic beverage. That's all I understand.

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Well, but at the same time, but the problem here is this is the problem that I'm having.

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Man can make, for example, non -alcoholic wine. You can do that. And I'll stop before you interrupt me.

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I'm trying to let you understand that the percentage of alcohol can be so low.

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That is, it's not going to make someone drunk, but it's alcohol. And unless three percent out three.

31:30

I mean, so it has alcohol. So it has alcohol. Right. OK. I'm trying to say that alcohol.

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So hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on. Yeah. So then you're saying the wine has alcohol in it.

31:43

Low content. I already talked about that earlier. Yeah, I already said that on the line.

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So do you have a question? Well, the question is, can an hour, can a wine have such a low enough alcohol content that it doesn't make you drunk?

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The obvious answer is yes. In that sense, yes. But then you could also have a very high alcohol content of a wine that doesn't get you drink because you take one sip.

32:10

The issue isn't that the issue isn't the amount or percentage.

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The issue is how much of that is in your system. And Jesus made wine that was alcoholic.

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Yeah, it had alcohol in it. That's all. OK, I don't know what percentage it was. I'm not concerned about it.

32:28

OK. Right. So right. I think we should just go on to the next course. OK, that's the difference. Well, the next the main difference,

32:35

Matt, is the alcohol content makes it wine. That doesn't mean that you automatically going to get drunk.

32:42

That's all I'm saying. So when people say that. I already said that. I already said that.

32:47

Yeah. Well, but I'm trying to say that you can't say that. Therefore, you know, this person is saying, well,

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Jesus didn't make wine. No, he did. But you know, nobody goes to college.

33:01

Hold on. That's all I'm saying. I get tired of preachers who say it wasn't wine, that it was grape juice. I get tired of that.

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I get tired of that ridiculous stuff. That's what I'm saying. Well, the point is, they're trying to say we're going to move along.

33:14

We're going to move along. We're just going to move along. OK, appreciate it. Oh, well, I do appreciate it. All right. So now let's get on the air with Justin from New Jersey.

33:22

Justin, welcome. You're on the air. Hello, Matt. How are you, brother? Oh, dude,

33:31

OK. That was what he got, buddy. So I don't know if you heard about the news with Dr.

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Stephen Lawson today. Yes, I did. And we had a break. Hold on. We'll get back on.

33:46

OK, buddy. Hey, folks. Whoo. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

34:08

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

34:14

Here's Matt Slick. All right. And welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Justin.

34:20

Justin, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. So the situation about Dr.

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Lawson that I thought was quite obviously heartbreaking. But the one I think the one part

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I wanted to get to was, you know, because. We had all we all know that God will grant those repentance who genuinely want to repent, but I think the part would be, would there be any issue with others judging

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Dr. Lawson by the way he had judged them through some of his most popular moments on the

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Internet, like him going out and preaching against Alistair Begg, who had given some bad information and he went out and condemned homosexuality to sin.

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I, of course, agree with that. However, he had obviously fallen into sexual morality today and there have been moments where he's been.

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Hold up. Hold on. Hold it. From what I've seen in the announcement, it says he was in an inappropriate relationship.

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That's all it says. It doesn't say it was sexual. Fair enough. So fair enough.

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That's what he says that he it says that he informed them that he voluntarily.

35:32

Yeah. So, OK, go ahead. Yeah, I don't want to cast judgment, not what

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I'm saying. I'm saying if this were to be the hypothetical, let's say adultery, just a potential hypothetical. When there are verses like Matthew 7, 1 through 2, where you know how you would judge others, people will judge you the same.

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I don't I guess my question would be, how are we to view a situation like that when a pastor has gone out and said strong statements against forms of sexual morality or at least purity and then gone out and potentially done something as heinous as adultery or at least something that was bad enough for him to be forced to step down due to him informing the elders?

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So how are we to view this and not judge someone too harshly? Here's the thing. We don't know what happened and we have to work with that and say we don't know.

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The elders know. Back when I was in seminary, there was a pastor. And he voluntarily told the elders of the church that he was emotionally involved with another woman that he was working with and he'd become very attracted to her and emotionally involved.

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No physical contact, no physical anything, nothing. He just told them, this is a problem and I have this problem.

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They then said, well, he can't be pastor. And they put him under discipline lovingly for two years and they worked with him.

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Now, is that what happened with this guy? I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no. I'm just saying without us knowing what's going on, we need to be very, very careful and not spread rumors.

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Why? Even on this radio show, I want to make sure no one says it was sexual immorality. We don't know if it was.

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Maybe it wasn't, but we can't say that. And there's different levels of inappropriate stuff that can happen.

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And you can have that just emotional commitment and things like that. And then and he brought it up. Apparently he disclosed it.

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So he's a man of integrity, at least in that regard. So that's right. We're going to be careful. Yeah.

37:28

OK. So I guess my question would be the. Even even if it's the emotional part or if it's the worst case scenario,

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I guess the part would be, how can we as Christians not fall into that fleshly trap of wanting to harshly judge someone?

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Because we all know that we're all sinners saved by God. So we don't want to harshly judge. Right. We want to have that measure of saying that was wrong, but there's still repentance.

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But it's still hard to not at least feel a little bit upset and at least ashamed of the actions.

38:01

Right. Right. Well, how about this? That's a good question. So having been alive for a long time and pushing my 68th year here,

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I've learned to be patient with people who let's use him as an example.

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Let's just say I was at some place and I met him and I could say, oh, you slime.

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If he brought it up, I'd say, well, if you want to tell me what happened, that's OK. But it's none of my business.

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The elders are taking care of it. I'll just trust the process of the elders. And I'm not going to judge anybody.

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I'm not going to say, look at you, because if the elders are the ones who are taking care of it and he's the one who volunteered it, then just let the course go.

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And that's it. That's all we're going to do. And how do we not become judgmental? Because we have to understand that by the standard that we judge, we will be judged.

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We have to be careful. And so I'd like to err on the side of grace. And so if that's it,

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I just err on the side of grace and let the procedures of the church that God has worked with to work.

39:11

That's all. OK. Right. Yeah, because that's admittedly something I struggle with as a

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Christian, even if it's on that situation, I'll see something and then I'll be angered by it. And there's a difference with having a righteous anger of hating a sin.

39:25

Right. You see, you go on the news and see something horrid happen. But then you realize, oh, I may have not murdered someone, but I hate this person in my life.

39:32

I have to repent. Right. So there's there's parts where I think we have to all realize that this was wrong.

39:37

Yes. But you have to err on the side of grace because Jesus came to save sinners. Right. And we're all sinners.

39:44

Yeah, that's for sure. You got that right. Because there's a time where you think you're doing good to read the

39:50

Bible and you just feel so convicted. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. You know, so stuff like this, if someone like the

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Roman Catholic Church, you know, they teach us flat out heresy, all that heretics, blah, blah, blah. But for example, this

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I don't know all the details. And so when you know the details, you know for sure then you can make a spiritual judgment.

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But if you don't, then you just hold back and say something was inappropriate.

40:19

Don't know what. And we've got to be careful, even as Christians, to not spread gossip by implying that he did something that we don't know he did or didn't do.

40:27

Then we can be in judgment. But the Bible says in Matthew seven, two, four, in the way you judge, you will be judged and by your standard of measure will be measured to you.

40:36

So the only times, for example, when I will just get hot and heavy on on someone to call my heretic is when they're denying the essentials of the

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Christian faith. Other than that, let's be as gracious as possible.

40:49

And that's right. I think that's an attitude we need to adopt, you know, generally speaking. Yeah. OK, yeah.

40:57

Thank you, brother. Hey, sure. No problem, brother. Appreciate it.

41:04

All right, Justin, is your last name time? My no, no, it's not.

41:11

I'm Ukrainian last name. And so when people people see it, they're. Well, I figure just in time would be great, you know.

41:18

But anyway, that would be a great last name. It would be. OK, we'll see you later.

41:25

All right. Yeah, let's get to Jermaine. Jermaine, welcome.

41:32

You're on the air. So a great show today. Oh, thanks.

41:40

Appreciate it. What do you got, buddy? Yeah, just for today, I wanted to ask about,

41:47

I guess they used to call PKs or preacher kids. I come from a family where we had a lot of preachers and a lot of people who were strong in faith.

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But even within my own family, like half went one way, the other half went the other way.

42:01

Some chose life of, you know, anti -law, we'll call it. And then some others chose to work for the law.

42:08

But is that always a fair indictment on the parents or the pastor, just because the kids choose to do whatever they want to do?

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Because I hear a lot of unfair judgments of people who the first thing they do is they look, well, look at the pastor's kids and it's like, well, you know, those kids are probably making the wrong decision.

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But I just want to hear what you have to say about that. Well, it's something I've had to deal with and we have logistics you've got to work through.

42:36

What do you do with a pastor who's raising children and they're still in the home from, say, eight years old to 16 years old kids?

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And they all, you know, for all intents and purposes are professing the faith. Well, then no problem.

42:50

What do you do if you have a 14 year old who then becomes an atheist and he's a pastor at the time?

42:56

Now, the Bible says you've got to have children who believe. So then we could say that he's the pastor is now disqualified because the child at, say, 14 or 16 became an atheist.

43:08

That would be a serious concern. This would have to be dealt with. Then what happens if he raises the children in a godly way?

43:16

They move out of the house. Ten years later, one of the children becomes an atheist. Now, is he disqualified?

43:24

In that case, for sure, I'd say, well, no, because he raised them up appropriately. They were under his control, under his headship, and they were, you know, for all intents and purposes, believers.

43:34

You can never know so much heart. And then later they chose to rebel against God on their own, independent of the household leading of what the father did.

43:44

So I would say at that point, he's not disqualified from being a pastor. So these are some of the issues to talk about.

43:52

I don't know if I've answered anything there, but you want to respond to that at all? I think that's the most fair answer.

44:02

I just really have a special place in my heart for people that get unfairly judged in ministry because I've seen where even theologians and I heard even

44:13

D .L. Moody's son had chose to go liberal. And, you know, it is just to me, it's not really fair because we do have our own minds.

44:24

And some people like to rebel against their parents. That's just the reality of the family situation. But I and I've also seen some people who absolutely look like they were on their way to hell and they wind up being on fire for the

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Lord later in life. I choose not to judge myself, but I just can't stand while I hear other folks say stuff.

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And I don't think it's a fair judgment of people who are serving in ministry. And I appreciate that.

44:52

We need and I as I say, say regularly, we need to err on the side of grace, not law.

44:58

As Christians. So I have three daughters and my oldest daughter is an atheist and she's quite ungodly, quite ungodly.

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But this came about in the past few years and she's in her 30s.

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I have another daughter and she's almost 30 and she is now into what's called the new age movement.

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I have another daughter in her mid 20s and she claims to be a Christian. OK, and they're out of the house and they're doing their part of the country.

45:30

So I can't keep tabs on them and judge them in that and say, so what do you do?

45:38

You know, what do you do? Am I disqualified, so to speak, from being a pastor? Perhaps some make that argument that's worth a discussion.

45:46

Am I disqualified from being an apologist? Some might say yes, some would say no.

45:52

These are discussions that we would have to have and discuss these things. And there are countless pastors whose children have in their adulthood have left the faith.

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Does it mean the pastors are no longer qualified to pastor because a child in their adult status left the faith?

46:11

These are tough ones. You know, these are tough ones. Right. Dr. Barnhouse is part of my morning routine.

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And since I was a little kid, I've been listening and I read where one of his granddaughters went like super liberal and almost

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Unitarian and called herself a pastor and whatnot. So that kind of stuff really opened my eyes to the realities of it's a lot more complicated than human judgment.

46:39

Then you have another situation, what if there's a pastor and he's doing a great job, he marries this great woman who's a godly woman, and 12 years later she says, hey, guess what?

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I'm I'm not a believer anymore. Now, he's disqualified. It would seem.

46:57

But is he? These are tough ones. And then what happens if she leaves him and she divorces him to no fault of his own?

47:05

Now, is he disqualified? These are not easy to get through so easily.

47:10

Legalists have a cut and dry answer. But those of us who like to err on the side of grace, it makes it more difficult.

47:17

And I like to do that err on the side of grace. How much grace can we receive from God, you know, and love and things like that without violating scripture?

47:28

OK. All right. Music, buddy. Thank you. Hey, man, you always got good conversations.

47:35

Keep calling, buddy. You're awesome. All right. Sure will. God bless. God bless. Hey, folks, we're out of time.

47:42

There's a music. May the Lord bless you by his grace. Look back on there tomorrow and we'll talk to you then.

47:48

God bless. Have a good evening. Another program powered by the