DA Carson

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Riding, Technology Nostalgia, and a Carson Conference Recording

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line. I was riding early in the morning and of course. Actually this morning is gorgeous. But as the summer wears on we had a freaky weekend. I mean that was like March in May for us and in the Phoenix area.

But as the summer wears on you have to get up earlier and earlier and earlier. Or you will be a crispy critter by the time you get back. And of course and by August doesn't matter when you get up. Doesn't when the low temperature in the morning is 93 degrees.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter when you get up. You're gonna be a crispy critter when you get back Once that fiery thing in the sky starts beating on you, you don't do much riding of that. Anyways, I was riding and I Normally when I'm riding I'm listening to heresy it's my job, you know.

But I didn't I don't know last time I was loading up the iPod shuffle and I was I'm lucky that I got one of the iPod shuffles before they stopped making the pretty ones now they make are these Really ugly pastel things mine is bright burn your eyeballs out orange and they don't make those anymore and My wife's is bright burn your eyeballs out pink now, I guess that's just too radical.

Maybe it's not earth friendly or something. I don't know but all you got are these dorky looking pastel shuffles now, but anyway shuffles are the greatest things ever designed for people who ride bikes.

I remember so clearly a Couple decades ago riding that bike with a big old, you know radio, you know in the back, you know, almost. Or or a big old CD player or even before that the the cassette tape player.

With the with the you know, two or three double-a batteries and stuff sitting in your you know. It's got a big old lump on your back. And that's that's what you were listening to. Yeah, they were big they had to be and.

It was the Sony Walkman. Remember that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, it'd be really small.

Oh, yeah small and light and compact, you know, and now you look at the shuffle and just go. It's a postcard. It's postage post stamp side. Anyway, so last time I was loading up the shuffle. For some reason I forget.

I don't even remember how I got it. I'm sure it was somebody in the channel posted a URL and I downloaded a bunch of. I guess Carson and Horton did a Conference together somewhere. I think it was in Albuquerque sometime recently and Blue Odin doc riding with the reel-to-reel strapped to his back.

The sad thing is when I was in high school even before I started doing radio I was recording music on reel-to-reel. And and there are so many today who have no idea what reel-to-reel means and these are the big 12-inch.

These are the huge ones. We're in the small ones. They're massive. Anyway, I've now started whenever you say something like this everybody in channels. Let's go. Well, I remember my first computer was an Atari and it had a 300 baud modem.

And everybody starts trying to outdo the other person as to how old they can demonstrate themselves to be Technologically was and it's sad. Anyway. But it happens all the time. What was I saying, oh, yeah, so I've downloaded Carson stuff and.

So the last two rides I've done. I've been listening to get Carson and He told a story today. That was really funny. Well, it wasn't really funny it. Carson has an interesting way of speaking. The guy is obviously, you know brilliant and I've really enjoyed his presentations and and it's been very useful and stuff and.

But he you know, he he's got that British thing going on. Because he's spent so much time over there in schooling and things like that and still uses a whole lot of British Terms. And I'm gonna hear from my dear brother Roger Brazier about this but what was it he said about when you when you get rid of a Like the Prime Minister something something about turf him out or something.

I'd never heard I'd never heard this before maybe Roger Roger Justin my two English translators could explain these things to me. I'm not sure what the background of that that one is, but anyway, it's it's you know Kick him out of office, but it had something to a turf.

I'm not not really sure what that was, but I'm sure that I'll hear from Roger about that. Anyway what he was talking about today was the justification and Romans 3 and stuff is great. But what was really interesting?

Was he told a story about CH Dodd now now this is where I have to explain stuff because Hopefully most people in the listening audience did not have to go To fuller seminary for their first master's degree like I did obviously Dodd you you need to know who Dodd was even if you're never going to bother to read liberal 20th century early to mid 20th century writings.

CH Dodd was extremely influential in what I would sadly identify as the Den the the decline I was gonna say denigration that wouldn't be a proper term the decline of Evangelical theology in the United Kingdom and Europe and in the United States liberal.

Whose writings of course were very highly esteemed at fuller seminary when I was there. That's how I was exposed to him and Carson was talking about the the Greek term Translated propitiation which he has an interesting time even pronouncing properly which is rather interesting.

He struggled a number of times with it. I think it's just because it just does not do well in the with the British accent type thing. But to a propitiation is the term and he was talking about why that's the best way to translate it and he was right I was really glad to hear him saying many of the same things.

I've said for years and years on that subject and It's always good to hear somebody else saying the same thing. It's encouraging, but he told the story about CH Dodd and Dodd was Influential in the translation the New English Bible and He was one of the chief people behind pushing the translation expiation rather than Propitiation and he didn't even like expiation.

He preferred what was it that he said it was Remedy the remedy for defilement. That was what he wanted to render it as was remedy for defilement and he was talking about Dodd's argument that It can't mean propitiation because God was already propitious toward us and that he had sent his son.

So it can't the whole idea Goes back to this European British idea of the last century that the idea of God having wrath Is just not a good thing we don't we don't want to have a God who has wrath and that has Wide ramifications in the decline of evangelical theology over there and as a result over here The Atlantic Ocean is somewhat of a buffer, but not a really good one things leak through eventually and So He was he was mentioning, you know, Dodd just did not like this idea of propitiation or expiation.

And as they were working on the New English Bible as they were working through that very section of Romans he said he was heard to mumble under his breath as They were going through the section. What's balderdash?

And It just struck me because he then repeated a limerick That sort of in a rather British way illustrated somewhat of the arrogance of a British theologian to question Paul's understanding of these things and in essence God's understanding of these things which was humorous, but The point was here you again see how a single individual can have a tremendous impact upon well a continent an entire language group.

Just because of obviously a tremendous intellect and yet a real problem with a fundamental biblical teaching. And that is the wrath of God. Carson had taken the time in this section to go through the bad news the catena of passages in Romans 3 10 through 18.

I don't think Steve Gregg would have liked what do you Carson had to say about that? But anyway, and he had gone through the bad news the sinfulness of man the universal sinfulness of man and so on and so forth.

And he had debunked the idea that the Old Testament God's God of wrath Rather badly tempered. I think was the term he used of him Over against the the loving God of the New Testament and any he said that's not true.

He said you might say that that both God's wrath and God's love are ratcheted up was the term He used in the New Testament but it's the same God and it's the same wrath and the same love and he went through passages in the New Testament where God's wrath is found and so on and so forth, but It was especially interesting to to hear a discussion of of one of the men who was most influential in Well, and and this is where this is where I'm different than Carson because Carson wouldn't necessarily use this terminology.

But I will and therefore it makes me a mean terrible horrible nasty person but poisoning an entire generation of theologians against biblical truth and We're still living with it today and while there are a lot of folks in evangelical churches today who would not You know, they wouldn't agree with Dodd in the sense of they wouldn't agree with his liberal views of things.

Functionally, they still they still agree with him they preach as if they would still agree with him and what I mean by that is the complete lack of Preaching on the wrath of God today. Now obviously there are people who are imbalanced there are people who You know the fire and brimstone preacher who knows nothing but that Is not balanced and that's why you need to proclaim the whole counsel of God.

But when there is in the counsel of God something as fundamental as his wrath You dare not abandon such things just simply because it is a culturally Uncomfortable to speak about such things and so it was interesting this morning to listen to him Discuss that particular issue and how it even ends up.

Yes. It does even end up touching on the translation of God's Word and it's another good reason to have multiple English translations rather than just one To be able to filter those things out because I hate to tell you this but there is no translation committee that is without its biases and If you cannot learn or do not have the opportunity to learn the original languages multiple English translations can be extremely Helpful along those lines eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Upcoming Blog Change and the Mormonism Discussion

I have more of the Steve Ray program lined up, but Before the program started today, I just sort of threw it out to our channel what I should to discuss today and Someone who will I'm not going to make the announcement quite yet but be watching because there is going to be a Little bit of a change on the blog coming and I'm excited about that and We're just let me just tell you we're just waiting for For angel to finish some work Before we make the announcement that can sort of give you an idea.

Yes angel still exists. I hadn't heard from angel in a long time. I haven't had to tell angel. I said angel, dude. You know some of those those tunes that you sent in the past, you know, just nailing certain people just you know.

Did you not hear my debate with another Achmed? Ah Can you can you think of? Anyone who is a more of a caricature in real life than another Achmed? I mean, you know what? I thought of something angel might not be able to handle another Achmed because he's already a tune.

He doesn't have to do anything. He's already a caricature. How do you caricature a caricature? You know? What's cool about angels insight in these things is that he can caricature someone and you can still recognize who they are.

But if you're already a caricature, how do you do that? You know, it's sort of like Chris Arntzen who cannot imitate me. Now Chris Arntzen can imitate people like David King As long as you have an accent which David says he does not but I Would love to hear him do Ordo and channel boy.

She would be fun, but She he cannot do an imitation of someone if they don't have an accent and people in Arizona, we pretty much defy that because everyone here came from someplace else and so we all you know eventually if you hear long enough, and I've been here for 30 34 years this summer.

Your accent if you had one just gets Destroyed and it's not around anymore. So he can't he can't imitate me so but he can't imitate others. So I wonder if angel would struggle with another Achmed anyhow.

I threw it out and I was directed to a By someone who will have something to do with that future announcement something along those lines an interesting URL To Mormonsarechristian .blogspot .com. And It's been a while.

You know last summer. We spent some time talking a little bit about Mormonism and Every once in a while something will cross my path. I do have a few RSS feeds and You know months and becoming the president and Hinkley dying and and How many prophets have I seen now.

Kimball. Kimball was present when I said when I first started studying I think Yes, Kimball Benson. No, it didn't go straight from him there. Huh? No, no. Anyway, it's been a few. It's been a few. I still say to this day if Joseph Smith saw the way that they were they were doing this.

He'd roll over in his grave because he clearly did not intend it this way. But anyway. You know, I keep up with some stuff that's going on. But it's just not where I am right now. If we were still going out to Mesa if we were still going up to Salt Lake City.

And who knows it if the King James only folks got tired and decided to go away I would love to get a chance to witness to folks again, but you know It is fascinating to come compare and contrast The Mormonism of today with the Mormonism of The 1980s when I started studying the LDS faith.

There is a religion in transition and what kind of transition. Well, it's not transition directed by truth. That's the problem the foundations are just not there and Where it's going to go what's going to become anybody's anybody's guess and It's it's actually gotten harder and harder.

To witness to Mormons because they're less and less convinced of what they actually believe and A post-modern Mormonism truth is bad enough when you had the squishy squishy wishy testimony to deal with.

Even though it was connected to yeah, but I still believe there's one true church type of a thing now. You get this post-modern Gooey gooey type stuff and you put together with all the emotionalism and it's it's it is not easy to deal with at all.

And so once a while stuff comes across my my desk or my screen actually and I look at and go man. There's still a whole lot of work to be done there. There's still so much work that needs to be done amongst to Jehovah's Witnesses and and Mormons and yet both groups are really struggling.

I mean both came out of a culture Where there was right and there was wrong and when there's not right and wrong anymore and You have to rely upon the Spirit of God to change people's hearts and their theology ain't gonna really allow that.

Wow. That must be real real rough and it's reflected in their numbers. It's reflected in their growth numbers or their lack of growth numbers and I think it's reflecting a lot of Churches today, but I was sent to this particular website.

And I started reading through this presentation. I was just like Wow I'll just read some of it here the Church of Jesus Christ. This is interesting the Church of Jesus Christ LDS. What happened what happened LDS?

What happened to just saying Latter-day Saints? It's a very odd way for a Mormon to identify their church Church Jesus Christ LDS is Often accused by evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and therefore not being a Christian religion.

Well, of course the real statement is believing in the wrong Christ not believing in any old Christ, but the Christ for the Bible. This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's theology relating to baptism.

The Godhead the deity of Jesus Christ in his atonement. Well, that's not a new approach. No, is it someone might remember that wasn't that long ago that people like Daniel Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks were putting out books like offenders for a word which managed to mangle and massacre the early church and We demonstrated that not that they would ever Interact with that type of thing, but I just love the amazing statements that are made here under baptism.

Early Christian churches practiced baptism of youth not infants by immersion by the father of the family the local congregation had a lay ministry and early Christian Church has been reconstructed at the Israel Museum and The above can be verified as if there's just like one.

It's we all know. That's exactly how they did it and wow, it looks just like us. Isn't that interesting? The church Jesus Christ LDS continues baptism and a lay ministry is taught by Jesus's apostles.

Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred and prohibiting non-christian Christians from witnessing them. No citations are given and. And you just you just anyone even slightly familiar with the wide range of things in the early church just looks at this and goes.

Wow. Talk about naive. Where where are you getting this stuff? I Remember when was it sometime around? 1983 or so an LDS missionary giving me the the 17 points of the true church card, you know and You these young guys going out there and just very confidently making these claims that you just know they have no idea.

Well, that's true or false, but they've been told it and they believe it and they're gonna repeat it. And then what happens when you show them actually, it's not quite that simple. No, if there was nothing there about Priesthoods or anything like that at all.

Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred. How about secret? That's the other part of it that goes with it, you know and prohibiting non-christians from witnessing them. I guess that's supposed to be sort of a veiled idea of the temple and so on so forth.

Which Christians did not build despite the best efforts of LDS Paul just to come up with reasons for saying otherwise under the Trinity. A Literal reading in the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ his son being separate divine beings united in purpose.

All that monotheism stuff we don't know where it came from it must have come from the Greeks. To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane? Um the father and who was speaking to him and his apostles in the mouth transfiguration the father.

Which is who is identified as Yahweh as the son identified as Yahweh and things like that. The Nicene Creed's definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin.

Really Is that so. Is that where homo is yes came from was some translating Greek Latin Greek Romans manuscripts in the Latin the scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity. Which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father Son Holy Spirit.

The oldest versions of the epistle of 1st John read. There are three they bear witness the water and the blood in the three or one scribes later add the father and the word in The spirit and remain in the epistle when it was translated in English for the King James Version according to dr. Bart Ehrman Chairman of the religion department of UNC Chapel Hill.

He no longer believes in an I seen Trinity. That's why I think Our channel regular found this maybe it was just searching on airmen or something and pulled this up. That's where it came from. I Think there are times even there are times even I have to defend Bart.

What in the world does any of that have to the Council of Nicaea absolutely positively nothing but our writer certainly Is is trying to make the case that it does. And it says scholars agree whenever I hear that.

You're you're just about to get snowed here comes here comes snow job number one scholars agree that early Christians believed in an embodied God it was neoplatonist influences that later turned him into a disembodied spirit.

Yeah. Them monotheistic Jews believed in an embodied God. Yeah, he had a body and all the rest that stuff. Yeah, okay there you go, so it just goes on from there and Divinization and tries to throw Athanasius in there and nothing much has changed along those lines.

Have they. Not not really. I love this kind of argumentation under the deity of Christ. Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. Well, of course Mormons also hold firmly to the deity of everybody who becomes exalted as a God.

Remembers the Church of Jesus Christ LDS. Jesus is not only the Son of God, but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001. Yeah here goes Barna is now going to be. Hey statistics can be used 97 of times statistics can be used to say 50 of anything I mean A Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 of American Catholic Catholics Lutherans and Methodists 28 of Episcopalians agreed that Jesus was without sin 70 of Mormons believed Jesus was sinless.

There's an argument for you. Whenever you throw the Catholics the Lutherans and the Methodists together to come up with a statistical argument Once again get ready to to Run into something that's really worthless.

Then we had the stuff about the atonement and the garden Stuff like that and So on so it was it was an interesting if somewhat very very naive article, but it's you know It's still out there and that stuff that we've been dealing with for many many years is still there.

So it still makes you wonder just a little bit How these folks are Promoting their message now in that they live in a society where this kind of stuff Just doesn't it just doesn't fly the idea of truth or false now you didn't there wasn't anything in here really about true church versus false church stuff like that and It did send you off to Jesus Christ at LDS Org slash son of God slash English, I wonder following that if there's gonna be any discussion of the actual sonship of Jesus which of course is one of the big issues just this last year with the Romney Candidacy and who knows there are people talking Romney VP and if Romney was chosen as VP You'd you'd have a lot of You know fundraising Possibilities with Romney as your as your VP then once again all those issues would come bubbling back up the surface and Once again, you'd have all the folks in the media saying it doesn't matter what his religion is.

He's a Christian just move on and no discussion. No meaningful discussion taking place within the mainstream media of the actual substance of LDS theology in comparison with the substance of Christian theology.

Because what is the primary? Given assumption of the mainstream media that when it comes to the matters matter of religion truth and false True what is true? And what is false is irrelevant because there is no such thing as truth and truth and falseness in religion all opinions are equal with each other and Therefore that matter.

Doesn't matter what Joseph Smith said it doesn't matter what the LDS temple ceremony is presented for years and years and years. None of that none of that stuff at all matters. And so we just don't even worry about it.

So we'll see. I mean, I don't know if that's gonna happen from what I've been told They don't get along at all, but then I we end from what I've been told John McCain doesn't get along with almost anybody.

We will see it it could prove to be an interesting interesting fall in more than one way Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is phone number when we come back from taking a break we're gonna listen to a few more of the texts that we as Protestants do not hear in regards to the Eucharist according to One of the greatest living apologists for the Roman Catholic Church Who is not one of the foremost biblical scholars of the Catholic Church like Tim Staples is but he is one of the leading Catholic apologists in the world today none under none other than Jerusalem Jones himself Steve Ray.

Here on the divine line. We'll be right back. Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce.

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Steve Ray on the Eucharist and the Once-for-All Sacrifice

And welcome back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Ashley's fans are complaining that there weren't any Ashley Man. You know that sort of does indicate we might ought to think of maybe getting some new one.

I think we ought to we ought to go for the big stuff and see if we might be able to get Milo to To cut a commercial for us. Don't you think that would be. Yeah I'll be big. I'm just not sure what he would charge.

I mean, do you think maybe a trip to the to the big buffet would would would cover it? I don't know if we could afford that. We do. That's true. A double-decker plate that Milo uses might be might be a little bit rough on us there, but.

See Milo coming to charge you two for two or three or four. That's right. That's right. Well.

Yeah, but I what would we have him advertise though? What would Milo be good at advertising? I'm trying to think pulpit crimes might be interesting. That would be being I'm trying to think of the books or that you know the one thing we would not want Milo to advertise.

It'd be any of this. Don't see the connection there. It'd be a little bit dangerous. I think. But anyhow Milo actually is. We could have him do the road to Emmaus.

Toronto to Emmaus, yeah, we could. I'm not sure mispronounced the. That's true. That's true.

He might describe it as a travelogue instead of what it's actually about lodge something. Yes Milo wouldn't stay in travel lodges. He's too big for that. He is the original Farm rock and roll superstar type guy, but anyways Milo's business manager is actually in channel listening to all this right now.

Well, we'll have to see we'll have to see if we can't get Milo to kind of cut a commercial for us. And it might not even be a commercial on something. We actually carry. That's that's not really necessary, but Yes, Milo's wife is named Emma after all I'm not sure what that has do anything, but anyhow back to Steve Ray who Oh, I was gonna really make a statement there, but I better better be very very careful at this point I was gonna say something about a connection between The seriousness of Milo's music and the seriousness of Steve Ray's apologetics, but anyways Realizing that of course Milo is the king of parody.

The scary thing is when people listen to him and don't get the parody part. That's that's when you go. You should probably stick to K light 98 .7 FM where you don't have to worry about words. But and it's K light still around think a light exists a more.

No. I think they went Spanish KQyt that's what it was member quiet. Yes, that was back before Phoenix was as large as is now all right back to Steve Ray and what was going on is Sometime last week he was on Maria Somebody to Mayo's program.

Sorry about that. I've really Teresa to Mayo. I think that's who it is whatever I Only had time to record portions of it, and that's why I didn't have the whole thing, but she's going through verses that evangelicals never hear in regards to the Eucharist, and we've been looking at some of those and Just going to pick up with where we left off last time.

Which is the next verse first Corinthians 10 21. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons? You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. These are just a few of the verses that we're talking about this morning that Steve started to see.

Or didn't see when he was still in the Protestant denominations, and he. Okay.

So we both have a doctrine of the Lord's Supper we we both recognize that Christ gave to the church a Command to observe the supper isn't the difference between what we think's going on and isn't the real issue the fact that Roman Catholic sacramentology determines its Soteriology at that point that is the very nature of the atonement the kind of the idea of a Representation the idea of the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice.

I mean if you're really gonna want to make an impact on Serious Protestants, why don't you make arguments against their real concerns about these things? That's that's something that I has struck me over and over again the reason that I do apologetics and The reason the vast majority of Roman Catholic apologists seem to do apologetics are very different.

We have different audiences. We have different intentions and what we do. I want my arguments to be against the best that Rome has to offer. I want to You know present that kind of argumentation rather than just make my side go rah-rah, I mean You could tell earlier remember last time Steve Ray was talking about, you know They always have to get in something to where you can look at the fundamentalist and go.

Oh, they're hateful people. See, they're anti Catholics. And he said we we called the the the wafer the the cookie Christ remember he mentioned something like that see If you if you want to get You know sort of appeal to the the baser nature of people then that's how you do it.

You use that kind of Terminology that kind of language and it gets your side all riled up and maybe that'll mean that the offering at the end of your Presentation will be bigger than it would be. Otherwise, I don't know.

But why not actually deal with with what the other side has to say now, like I said last time I did You know mention that Steve Ray finally after a while after a hammering away on Baptist glasses as if Roman Catholics didn't have them of course don't have Baptist glasses Catholic glasses, but Finally admitted that well, you know the primary reason that they believe these things is they don't see an explicit biblical Teaching concerning the concepts of transubstantiation things like that.

That was partly true I'm glad we finally got to that point. The real issue was If your entire theology results in Christ being His death being represented and please notice I keep saying that I didn't say represented.

I said represented because there is the idea of a limitedness to the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice of the mass in old-style Catholic theology and As a result, you know, my argument has been for years and years and years it can't be a Representation of the one sacrifice of the cross if it does not accomplish what the one sacrifice of the cross accomplished now, of course that it calls for Protestants to actually have a thoroughly biblical doctrine of the Atonement and many do not Certainly we can see that the kind of Traditionalistic shallow Conservative I only you know, what was the what was the old song?

It's in the I Don't know and I don't care dude. I do that's in the Bible who knows where the other do that. Yeah. That was that was the little song that we came up to describe the the kind of attitude that exists among amongst many people who Just don't take the time to seriously engage the Word of God.

It's not it's not that they don't have the opportunity They just they're very happy just to have you know, a real surface level Religiosity and then just go on from there. They don't want it to impact the rest of their life or anything like that and Don't want to get involved in studying the Bible and if and people if the people do.

Well, you know, it just seems a little extreme to them. And and so they just sort of dismiss that type of thing we can certainly see how that kind of of Protestantism is pretty much helpless in making much of the inroads Against any serious religious position by anybody else.

But that's certainly not the best that quote-unquote our side has to offer. So I'm not sure why you'd always focus upon it was in a number of them.

And now of course, he is one of our greatest apologists Catholic apologists to date and we're taking. I did I hear that?

He is one of our greatest Catholic apologists to date. Now it's one thing to say that you're one of the greatest Catholic apologists today. Because that limits the range and now you're just comparing him to Jimmy Akin and Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and Mitch Pacwa and Peter Stravinsky and people like that and he's Up there at the top.

But to date means the holiest the church. Now, I'm really hoping she meant to say today. Because if I'm sorry, but if Jerusalem Jones is at the top of the list of the entirety of church history Then maybe Tim Staples is well the foremost.

And The world has gone nuts in the process. Yes, and in your calls and your questions.