DA Carson

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line.

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I was riding early in the morning and of course Actually this morning is gorgeous.

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But as the summer wears on we had a freaky weekend I mean that was like March in May for us and in the

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Phoenix area But as the summer wears on you have to get up earlier and earlier and earlier

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Or you will be a crispy critter by the time you get back And of course and by August doesn't matter when you get up Doesn't when the low temperature in the mornings 93 degrees

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Anyways, it doesn't really matter when you get up. You're gonna be a crispy critter when you get back Once that fiery thing in the sky starts beating on you, you don't do much riding of that.

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Anyways, I was riding and I Normally when I'm riding

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I'm listening to heresy it's my job, you know But I didn't

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I don't know last time I was loading up the iPod shuffle And I was I'm lucky that I got one of the iPod shuffles before they stopped making the pretty ones now

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They make are these really ugly pastel things mine is bright burn your eyeballs out orange and they don't make those anymore and My wife's is bright burn your eyeballs out pink now.

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I guess that's just too radical. Maybe it's not earth friendly or something I don't know, but all you got are these dorky looking pastel shuffles now, but anyway shuffles are the greatest things ever designed for people who ride bikes

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I Remember so clearly a couple decades ago riding that bike with a big old, you know radio

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You know in the back, you know almost the boombox Or or a big old

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CD player or even before that the the cassette tape player

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With the with the you know, two or three double -a batteries and stuff sitting in your you know

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It's got a big old lump on your back. And that's that's what you were listening to. Yeah, they were big they had to be and That was the

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Sony Walkman. Remember that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, it'd be really small Oh, yeah small and light and compact, you know, and now you look at the shuffle and just go.

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It's a postcard It's posted post stamp side. Anyway, so last time I was loading up the shuffle

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For some reason I forget. I don't even remember how I got it. I'm sure it was somebody in the channel

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Posted a URL and I downloaded a bunch of I guess Carson and Horton Did a conference together somewhere.

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I think it was in Albuquerque sometime recently and Blue Odin doc riding with the reel -to -reel strapped to his back

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The sad thing is when I was in high school, even before I started doing radio I was recording music on reel -to -reel

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And and there are so many today who have no idea what reel -to -reel means and these are the big 12 -inch

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These are the huge ones. We're in the small ones. They're massive Anyway, I've now started and whenever you say something like this everybody in channels.

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Let's go Well, I remember my first computer was an Atari and it had a 300 baud modem

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And everybody starts trying to outdo the other person as to how old they can demonstrate themselves to be

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Technologically wise and it's sad. Anyway But it happens all the time

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What was I saying? Oh, yeah, so I've downloaded Carson stuff and so the last two rides

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I've done I've been listening to get Carson and He told a story today. That was really funny.

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Well, it wasn't really funny it Carson has an interesting way of speaking the guy is obviously, you know brilliant and I've really enjoyed his presentations and and it's been very useful and stuff and But he you know, he he's got that British thing going on Because he's spent so much time over there in schooling and things like that and still uses a whole lot of British Terms And I'm gonna hear from my dear brother

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Roger Brazier about this but what was it he said about when you when you get rid of a

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Like the Prime Minister something something about turf him out or something. I had never heard

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I'd never heard this before maybe Roger Roger Justin my my two

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English translators could explain these things to me I'm not sure what the background of that one is, but anyway, it's it's kick him out of office, but it had something to a turf

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I'm not not really sure what that was, but I'm sure that I'll hear from Roger about that Anyway, what he was talking about today was the justification and Romans 3 and stuff is great

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But what was really interesting? was he told a story about CH Dodd now now this is where I have to explain stuff because Hopefully most people in the listening audience did not have to go

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To Fuller Seminary for their first master's degree like I did obviously

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Dodd you need to know who Dodd was even if you're never going to bother to read liberal 20th century early to mid 20th century writings

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CH Dodd was extremely influential in what

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I would sadly identify as the Den the the decline I was gonna say denigration that wouldn't be a proper term the decline of Evangelical theology in the

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United Kingdom and Europe and United States liberal Whose writings of course were very highly esteemed at Fuller Seminary when

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I was there. That's how I was exposed to him and Carson was talking about The the

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Greek term translated propitiation which he has an interesting time even pronouncing properly

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Which was rather interesting he struggled a number of times with it I think it's just because it just does not do well in the with the

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British accent type thing But to a propitiation is the term and he was talking about why that's the best way to translate it and he was right

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I was really glad to hear him saying many of the same things. I've said for years and years on that subject and It's always good to hear somebody else saying the same thing it's encouraging but he told the story about CH Dodd and Dodd was

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Influential in the translation the New English Bible and He was one of the chief people behind pushing the translation expiation rather than propitiation and He didn't even like expiation.

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He preferred. What was it that he said it was Remedy the remedy for defilement

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That was what he wanted to render it as was remedy for defilement And he was talking about Dodd's argument that it can't mean propitiation because God was already

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Propitious toward us and that he had sent his son so it can't the whole idea goes back to this

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European British idea of the last century that the idea of God having wrath

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Is just not a good thing. We don't we don't want to have a God who has wrath and that has

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Wide ramifications in the decline of evangelical theology over there and as a result over here

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The Atlantic Ocean is somewhat of a buffer, but not a really good one The things leak through eventually and So He was he was mentioning, you know

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Dodd just did not like this idea of propitiation or expiation and As they were working on the

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New English Bible as they were working through that very section of Romans he said he was heard to mumble under his breath as They were going through the section.

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What's a balderdash? And It just struck me because he then repeated a limerick that sort of in a rather British way illustrated somewhat of the arrogance of a

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British theologian to question Paul's understanding of these things and in essence

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God's understanding of these things which was humorous, but The point was here you again see how a single individual can have a tremendous impact

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Upon well a continent an entire language group just because of obviously a tremendous intellect and yet a real problem with a fundamental biblical teaching

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And that is the wrath of God Carson had taken the time in this section to go through the bad news the

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Katina of passages in Romans 3 10 through 18. I don't think Steve Gregg would have liked what do you

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Carson had to say about that? but anyway and he had gone through the bad news the sinfulness of man the universal sinfulness of man and so on and so forth and He had debunked the idea that the

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Old Testament God's God of wrath Rather badly tempered. I think was the term he used of him

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Over against the the loving God of the New Testament and any he said that's not true

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He said you might say that that both God's wrath and God's love are ratcheted up was the term

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He used in the New Testament but it's the same God and it's the same wrath and the same love and he went through passages in the

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New Testament where God's wrath is found and so on and so forth, but it was especially interesting to to hear a discussion of one of the men who was most influential in Well, and and this is where this is where I'm different than Carson because Carson wouldn't necessarily use this terminology

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But I will and therefore it makes me a mean terrible horrible nasty person but poisoning an entire generation of theologians against biblical truth and We're still living with it today.

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And while there are a lot of folks in evangelical churches today who would not You know, they wouldn't agree with Dodd in the sense of they wouldn't agree with his liberal views of things

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Functionally, they still as they still agree with him. They preach as if they would still agree with him and what

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I mean by that is the complete lack of Preaching on the wrath of God today

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Now obviously there are people who are imbalanced there are people who You know the fire and brimstone preacher who knows nothing but that Is not balanced and that's why you need to proclaim the whole counsel of God But when there is in the counsel of God something as fundamental as his wrath

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You dare not Abandon such things just simply because it is a culturally

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Uncomfortable to speak about such things and so it was interesting this morning to listen to him Discuss that particular issue and how it even ends up.

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Yes, it does even end up touching on the translation of God's Word and it's another good reason to have multiple

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English translations rather than just one To be able to filter those things out because I hate to tell you this but there is no translation committee that is without its biases and If you cannot learn or do not have the opportunity to learn the original languages multiple

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English translations can be extremely helpful along those lines eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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I have more of the Steve Ray program lined up, but Before the program started today,

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I just sort of threw it out to our channel what I should to discuss today and Someone who will

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I'm not going to make the announcement quite yet but be watching because there is going to be a

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Little bit of a change on the blog coming and I'm excited about that and We're just let me just tell you we're just waiting for For angel to finish some work

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Before we make the announcement that can sort of give you an idea. Yes angel still exists

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I hadn't heard from angel in a long time. I haven't had to tell angel. I said angel, dude

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You know some of those those tunes that you sent in the past, you know, just nailing certain people just you know

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Did you not hear my debate with another Achmed? Can you can you think of Anyone who is a more of a caricature in real life than another

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Achmed? I mean, you know what? I thought of something angel might not be able to handle another

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Achmed because he's already a tune He doesn't have to do anything. He's already a caricature.

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How do you caricature a caricature? You know? What's cool about?

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Angels insight in these things is that he can caricature someone and you can still recognize who they are

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But if you're already a caricature, how do you do that? You know, it's sort of like Chris Arntzen who cannot imitate me Now Chris Arntzen can imitate people like David King As long as you have an accent which

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David says he does not but I Would love to hear him do Ordo and channel boy.

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She would be fun, but She he cannot do an imitation of someone if they don't have an accent and people in Arizona, we pretty much defy that because everyone here came from someplace else and so we all

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You know eventually if you hear long enough, and I've been here for 30 34 years this summer

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Your accent if you had one just gets Destroyed and it's not around anymore

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So he can't he can't imitate me so but he can't imitate others So I wonder if angel would would struggle with another

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Achmed anyhow. I threw it out and I was directed to a

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By someone who will have something to do with that future announcement something along those lines an interesting

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URL To Mormonsarechristian .blogspot

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.com and It's been a while, you know last summer we spent some time talking a little bit about Mormonism and Every once in a while something will cross my path.

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I do have a few RSS feeds and You know months and becoming the president and Hinkley dying and and How many prophets have

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I seen now Kimball Kimball was present when

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I when I first started studying I think Yes, Kimball Benson No, it didn't go straight from him there

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Huh? No, no. Anyway, it's been a few It's been a few

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I still say to this day if Joseph Smith saw the way that they were they were doing this He'd roll over in his grave because he clearly did not intend it this way.

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But anyway You know, I keep up with some stuff that's going on But it's just not where I am right now

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If we were still going out to Mesa if we're still going up to Salt Lake City And who knows it if the King James only folks got tired and decided to go away

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I would love to get a chance to witness to folks again, but you know It is fascinating to come compare and contrast

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The Mormonism of today with the Mormonism of The 1980s when

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I started studying the LDS faith There is a religion in transition and what kind of transition will it's not transition directed by truth.

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That's the problem the foundations are just not there and Where it's going to go what's going to become anybody's anybody's guess and It's it's actually gotten harder and harder

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To witness to Mormons because they're less and less convinced of what they actually believe and A post -modern

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Mormonism truth is bad enough when you had the squishy squishy wishy testimony to deal with Even though it was connected to yeah, but I still believe there's one true church type of a thing now

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You get this post -modern Ooey -gooey type stuff and you put together with all the emotionalism and it's it's it is not easy to deal with at all

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And so once in a while stuff comes across my my desk or my screen Actually, and I look at and go man.

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There's still a whole lot of work to be done there there's still so much work that needs to be done amongst to Jehovah's Witnesses and and Mormons and yet both groups are really struggling.

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I mean both came out of a culture where there was right and there was wrong and when there's not right and wrong anymore and You have to rely upon the

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Spirit of God to change people's hearts and their theology ain't gonna really allow that Wow That must be real real rough and it's reflected in their numbers.

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It's reflected in their growth numbers or their lack of growth numbers and I think that's reflected in a lot of churches today, but I was sent to this particular website and I started reading through this presentation.

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I was just like wow I'll just read some of it here the

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Church of Jesus Christ This is interesting the Church of Jesus Christ LDS What happened what happened

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LDS? What happened to just saying Latter -day Saints? It's a very odd way for a

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Mormon to identify their church Church Jesus Christ LDS is often accused by evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and therefore not being a

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Christian religion Well, of course the real statement is believing in the wrong Christ not believing in any old Christ, but the

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Christ for the Bible This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early

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Christianity's theology relating to baptism The Godhead the deity of Jesus Christ in his atonement Well, that's not a new approach.

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No, is it someone might remember that wasn't that long ago that People like Daniel Peterson and Stephen D.

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Ricks were putting out books like offenders for a word which managed to mangle and massacre the early church and We demonstrated that not that they would ever

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Interact with that type of thing, but I just love the amazing statements that are made here under baptism

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Early Christian churches practice baptism of youth not infants by immersion by the father of the family

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The local congregation had a lay ministry an early Christian Church has been reconstructed at the Israel Museum and the above can be verified

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As if there's just like one it's we all know that's exactly how they did it and wow

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It looks just like us. Isn't that interesting? The church Jesus Christ LDS continues baptism and a lay ministry is taught by Jesus's apostles

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Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred and prohibiting non -christian Christians from witnessing them

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No citations are given and and you just you just Anyone even slightly familiar with the wide range of things in the early church just looks at this and goes

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Wow Talk about naive Where where are you getting this stuff?

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I Remember when was it sometime around? 1983 or so an

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LDS missionary giving me the the 17 points of the true church card, you know and You these young guys going out there and just very confidently making these claims that you just know they have no idea

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Well, that's true or false, but they've been told it and they believe it and they're gonna repeat it And then what happens when you show them actually, it's not quite that simple

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No, if there was nothing there about Priesthoods or anything like that at all Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred

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How about secret? That's the other part of it that goes with it, you know and prohibiting non -christians from witnessing them

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I guess that's supposed to be sort of a veiled idea of the temple and so on so forth which Christians did not build

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Despite the best efforts of LDS Paul just come up with reasons for saying otherwise under the

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Trinity a Literal reading in the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ his son being separate divine beings united in purpose

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All that monotheism stuff we don't know where it came from it must have come from the Greeks To whom was

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Jesus praying in Gethsemane? Um the father and who was speaking to him and his apostles in the mount transfiguration the father

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Which is who is identified as Yahweh as the son identified as Yahweh and things like that The Nicene Creed's definition of the

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Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin Really Is that so is that where homo is yes came from was some translating

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Greek Latin Greek Romans manuscripts in the Latin the scribes embellished on a passage explaining the

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Trinity Which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is father son and Holy Spirit the oldest versions of the epistle of 1st

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John read There are three they bear witness the water and the blood in the three or one scribes later add the father and the word in The spirit and remain in the epistle when it was translated in English for the

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King James Version according to dr. Bart Ehrman chairman of the religion department of UNC Chapel Hill.

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He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity That's why I think our channel regular found this

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Maybe it was just searching on airmen or something and pulled this up. That's where it came from I Think there are times even there are times even

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I have to defend bar What in the world does any of that have to the

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Council of Nicaea absolutely positively nothing but our writers certainly Is is trying to make the case that it does

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And it says scholars agree whenever I hear that You're you're just about to get snowed here comes here comes snow job number one scholars agree that early

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Christians believed in an embodied God it was neoplatonist influences that later turned him into a disembodied spirit

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Yeah Them monotheistic Jews believed in an embodied God.

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Yeah, he had a body and all the rest that stuff. Yeah, okay ah, there you go, so it just goes on from there and divinization and tries to throw

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Athanasius in there and Nothing much has changed along those lines have they? Not not really.

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I love this kind of argumentation under the deity of Christ Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ Well, of course

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Mormons also hold firmly to the deity of everybody who becomes exalted as a God Remembers the Church of Jesus Christ LDS.

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Jesus is not only the Son of God, but also God the Son Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001.

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Yeah, here goes Barna is now going to be Well, hey statistics can be used 97 % of times statistics can be used to say 50 % of anything.

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I mean Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 % of American Catholic Catholics Lutherans and Methodists 28 % of Episcopalians agreed that Jesus was without sin 70 % of Mormons believe

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Jesus was sinless There's an argument for you Whenever you

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You throw the Catholics the Lutherans and the Methodists together to come up with a statistical argument once again get ready to to Run into something that's really worthless

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Then we had the stuff about the atonement and the garden stuff like that and So on so it was it was an interesting if somewhat very very naive article, but it's you know

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It's still out there and that stuff that we've been dealing with for many many years is still there

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So it still makes you wonder just a little bit How these folks are

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Promoting their message now in that they live in a society where this kind of stuff just doesn't it just doesn't fly the idea of truth or false now you didn't there wasn't anything in here really about true church versus false church stuff like that and It did send you off to Jesus Christ at LDS org slash son of God slash

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English I wonder following that if there's gonna be a discussion of the actual sonship of of Jesus which of course is one of the big issues just this last year with the

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Romney Candidacy and who knows there are people talking Romney VP and if Romney was chosen as VP You'd you'd have a lot of you know fundraising possibilities with Romney as your as your

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VP and Once again, all those issues would come bubbling back up to surface And once again, you'd have all the folks in the media saying it doesn't matter what his religion is.

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He's a Christian just move on And no discussion no meaningful discussion taking place within the mainstream media of the actual substance of LDS theology in comparison with the substance of Christian theology

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Because what is the primary? Given assumption of the mainstream media that when it comes to the matters matter of religion truth and false

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True what is true? And what is false is irrelevant because there is no such thing as truth and truth and falseness in religion all opinions are equal with each other and Therefore Doesn't matter doesn't matter what

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Joseph Smith said. It doesn't matter what the LDS temple ceremony is presented for years and years and years

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None of that none of that stuff at all matters. And so we just don't even worry about it So we'll see

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I mean, I don't know if that's gonna happen from what I've been told They don't get along at all, but then I we end from what

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I've been told John McCain doesn't get along with almost anybody It doesn't really

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Don't really matter a whole lot where the other so We will see it. It could prove to be an interesting interesting fall in more than one way

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It's seven seven seven five three three, three, four one is phone number when we come back from taking a break

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We're gonna listen to a few more of the texts that we as Protestants do not hear in Regards to the

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Eucharist according to one of the greatest living apologists for the Roman Catholic Church Who is not one of the foremost biblical scholars of the

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Catholic Church like Tim Staples is but he is one of the leading Catholic apologists in the world today none under none other than Jerusalem Jones himself

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Steve Ray Here on the divine line. We'll be right back Hello everyone, this is

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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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And welcome back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning Ashley's fans are complaining that there weren't any

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Ashley Oh Man you know that sort of does indicate we might ought to think of maybe getting some new one

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I think we ought to we ought to go for the big stuff and see if we might be able to get Milo to To cut a commercial for us.

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Don't you think that would be yeah, that's why I thought would be big I'm just not sure what he would charge

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I mean, do you think maybe a trip to the to the big buffet would would would cover it?

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I don't know if we could afford that We do That's true a double -decker plate that Milo uses might be might be a little bit rough on us there, but See Milo coming to charge you two for two or three or four.

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That's right. That's right well Yeah, but I what would we have him advertise though? What would Milo be good at advertising?

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I'm trying to think pulpit crimes might be interesting That would be being I'm trying to think of the books or that you know the one thing we would not want

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Milo to advertise It'd be anything Don't see the connection there be a little bit dangerous,

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I think mm -hmm, but anyhow Milo actually is We could have him do the road to Emmaus Toronto to a mess yeah, we could

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I'm not sure mispronounced the that's true. That's true He might describe it as a travelogue instead of what it's actually a lodge something yes

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Milo wouldn't stay in travel lodges. He's too big for that. He is the original Farm rock and roll superstar type guy, but anyways

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Milo's business manager is actually in channel listening to all this right now So we'll have to see we'll have to see if we can't get

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Milo to cut a cut a commercial for us And it might not even be a commercial on something. We actually carry That's that's not really necessary, but Yes Milo's wife is named

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Emma after all I'm not sure what that has do anything, but anyhow back to Steve Ray who?

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Oh, I was gonna really make a statement there, but I better better be very Very careful at this point.

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I was gonna say something about a connection between The the seriousness of Milo's music and the seriousness of Steve Ray's apologetics, but anyways

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Realizing that of course Milo is the king of parody The scary thing is when people listen to him and don't get the parody part.

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That's that's when you go You should probably stick to K light and ninety eight point seven

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FM where you don't have to worry about words But and it's Kayla still around think a light exists a more. No. I think they went

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Spanish K Q YT, that's what it was remember quiet.

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Yes. That was back before Phoenix was as large as is now All right back to Steve Ray, and what was going on?

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is Sometime last week he was on Maria Somebody to Mayo's Program sorry about that.

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I've really Teresa to Mayo. I think that's who it is whatever I Only had time to record portions of it, and that's why

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I didn't have the whole thing, but she's going through verses that Evangelicals never here in regards to the

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Eucharist, and we've been looking at some of those and Just going to pick up with where we left off last time

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Which is the next verse first Corinthians 10 21 you cannot drink the cup of the

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Lord and the cup of demons You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons

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These are just a few of the verses that we're talking about this morning that Steve started to see Or didn't see when he was still in the

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Protestant denominations, and he Okay So we both have a doctrine of the

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Lord's Supper. We we both recognize that Christ gave to the church a

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Command to observe the supper isn't the difference between what we think's going on and isn't the real issue the fact that Roman Catholic sacramentology determines its

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Soteriology at that point that is the very nature of the atonement the kind the idea of a

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Representation the idea of the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice. I mean if you're really gonna want to make an impact on Serious Protestants, why don't you make arguments against their real concerns about these things?

36:14

That's that's something that I has struck me over and over again the reason that I do apologetics and The reason the vast majority of Roman Catholic apologists seem to do apologetics are very different.

36:27

We have different audiences We have different intentions and what we do. I want my arguments to be against the best that Rome has to offer.

36:35

I want to You know present that kind of argumentation rather than just make my side go rah -rah.

36:44

I mean You could tell earlier remember last time Steve Ray was talking about, you know They always have to get in something to where you can look at the fundamentalist and go.

36:54

Oh, they're hateful people See they're anti Catholics and he said we we called the the the wafer the the cookie

37:01

Christ Remember he mentioned something like that see if you if you want to get

37:08

You know sort of appeal to the the baser nature of people then that's how you do it you use that kind of Terminology that kind of language and it gets your side all riled up and maybe that'll mean that the offering at the end of your

37:22

Presentation will be bigger than it would be. Otherwise, I don't know But why not actually deal with with what the other side has to say now, like I said last time

37:30

I did You know mention that Steve Ray finally after a while after a hammering away on Baptist glasses as if Roman Catholics didn't have them of course don't have

37:40

Baptist glasses Catholic glasses, but Finally admitted that well, you know the primary reason that they believe these things is they don't see an explicit biblical

37:50

Teaching concerning the concepts of transubstantiation things like that. That was partly true

37:56

I'm glad we finally got to that point. The real issue was If your entire theology results in Christ being

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His death being represented and please notice. I keep saying that I didn't say represented.

38:09

I said represented because there is the idea of a limitedness to the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice the mass in old -style

38:24

Catholic theology and As a result, you know, my argument has been for years and years and years it can't be a

38:33

Representation of the one sacrifice of the cross if it does not accomplish What the one sacrifice of the cross accomplished now, of course that it calls for Protestants to actually have a thoroughly biblical doctrine of the atonement and many do not

38:49

Certainly we can see that the kind of Traditionalistic shallow

38:58

Conservative I only you know, what was the what was the old song?

39:05

it's in the I Don't know and I don't care dude. I do that's in the

39:10

Bible. Who knows where the other do that? Yeah That was that was the little song that we came up to describe the the kind of attitude that exists a lot amongst many people who

39:23

Just don't take the time to seriously engage the Word of God. They it's not it's not that they don't have the opportunity

39:28

They just they're very happy just to have you know, a real surface level

39:34

Religiosity and then just go on from there. They don't want it to impact the rest of their life or anything like that and Don't want to get involved in studying the

39:42

Bible and if and people if the people do Well, you know, it just seems a little extreme to them. And so they just sort of dismiss that type of thing we can certainly see how that kind of of Protestantism is pretty much helpless in making much of the inroads

39:58

Against any serious religious position by anybody else But that's certainly not the best that quote -unquote our side has to offer

40:08

So I'm not sure why you'd always focus upon it was in a number of them And now of course, he is one of our greatest apologists

40:13

Catholic apologists to date and we're taking I did I hear that? He is one of our greatest

40:19

Catholic apologists to date Now it's one thing to say that you're one of the greatest

40:26

Catholic apologists today Because that limits the range and now you're just comparing him to Jimmy Akin and Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and Mitch Pacwa and Peter Stravinskas and people like that and he's

40:40

Up there at the top But to date means the wholist the church now,

40:47

I'm really hoping she meant to say today Because if I'm sorry, but if Jerusalem Jones is at the top of the list of the entirety of church history

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Then maybe Tim Staples is well the foremost And The world has gone nuts in the process.

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Yes, and in your calls and your questions So, please keep them to the Eucharist eight seven seven five seven three seventy eight twenty five again eight seven

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Five seven three Head real quick.

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Yeah, I skipped ahead looking for Something other than that Remember that one

41:34

Catholic connection coast to coast and around the world through EWTN global Catholic radio Seven seven five seven three, it's a lot of footnotes

41:43

Document it well and the whole last third of the book the last Probably 60 pages or 70 pages are all about the

41:51

Eucharist I start with the Old Testament passages than the New Testament passages and then the first five centuries of the church and In the book crossing the

42:00

Tiber the whole last third of the book is on the Eucharist Demonstrating that the

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Catholic Church has taught and always has taught both Following the tradition of the

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Old and the New Testament all the way through the centuries till today So somebody wants to learn more about this

42:17

I really think that's one of the best sources because I do Do a very systematically through the

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Old and the New Testaments all the passages related to it Especially the ones that is the Baptist I used to use against Catholics I now go back to those verses and show how all of those verses are very distinctly

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Catholic versus not Protestant verses All right, let's go what is a

42:38

Catholic or a Protestant verse anyways Be that as it may

42:44

Obviously you you have the assertion. It certainly sounded there and it is funny.

42:49

It is well not funny. It's it's sad to know that What many of these guys say in front of their own audiences is different than what they will say in a debate with me now of course

43:02

If you'd like to hear what Steve Ray would say in a debate with me Here's what he'd say about the Eucharist. That's because of course

43:10

Steve Ray's not going to debate me on anything But You hear what's being said here and they'll go ahead and they will they will in essence say

43:23

And they do this on all sorts of subjects to do it on papacy. So la scriptura here on the Eucharist Mary You know you name them.

43:30

They will very gladly lead their Audiences to think that there is a universal consensus on these things and they know better They know better.

43:42

They know they can be challenged So when they make their presentations in a debate all of a sudden the target which used to be this big is

43:52

Shrunk down to something this big because they're gonna make a different presentation When they're in the debate and they're gonna they're gonna make the target you can shoot at a whole lot smaller

44:02

And if you point out well, you know, you've said well But you know, we need to look to the official teachings of the church and the church has never said this

44:11

So in a debate if the church has never said this then I can't criticize it even if they've said it themselves in the past and Said it in front of Catholic audiences.

44:23

It's it sounded to me like he was talking about how there's this universal teaching

44:29

Now obviously Roman Catholic scholarship, which they might identify as liberal scholarship,

44:35

I suppose I'm not sure Identifies and this is why

44:40

Newman had to come up with this the idea of development and That it wasn't something that just came into full existence, but it developed over time

44:50

Now, is that what they're saying? Doesn't seem to be in especially in essence

44:57

You listen to raise Abuse of Ignatius that I've documented on my youtube page and you'll see on the blog

45:03

I've already posted this but you'll see on the blog as it appears some responses to Ben Douglas on this subject You know, he says hey

45:10

Ignatius clearly taught here. It is. It's the body and blood. This is transplantation blah blah blah

45:16

Well, that's not what Ignatius taught and that's that's not any serious reading of Ignatius But when you're in a

45:22

Catholic context, it seems like you can just get away with well almost anything Getting lots of calls as we always do for Steve asking you a favor

45:29

If you could keep your questions or your comments to the topic of Eucharist, which is what in other words don't preach

45:35

We're studying and reflecting on this morning And this is a part two of our series Verses I didn't see as a

45:41

Protestant Steve Ray as our guest the last time we talked with Steve we discussed baptism We're talking about Eucharist this morning

45:47

Dave calling from New York State. Hi Dave. Good morning So, how are you now listen in folks if you want to again once again realize the importance of Discussing these things than your church fact

46:00

I just mentioned this in passing you cannot go to listen to this because we didn't record it, but I had a

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Vista explosion on Sunday morning. I was going to be playing since I was preaching.

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I was gonna be playing another part of a debate and And The system simply would not provide audio just decided it wouldn't do it.

46:22

I've fixed one of the two programs by Downloading a whole new version of it and now it seems to work.

46:27

But anyway, so all of a sudden I'm standing there and I have No idea what in the world.

46:33

I'm gonna do here, you know Thankfully our deacon Jim Broyles from the back of the room said, you know a couple weeks ago you were talking about Matthew 16 and you were talking about the the keys the kingdom and stuff like that and you made some comments and I think that you sort of made up at the end of the hour and I think there'd be a lot of interest in Expanding on what it was you were talking about.

46:55

So I spent the whole time Going over Matthew 16 19 the keys of the kingdom

47:00

Isaiah 22 went through the process of demonstrating that the Isaiah 22 argument doesn't hold water because of Revelation 3 7 and and the

47:08

Messianic nature of the key versus the keys and some Genesis great response key keys doesn't matter

47:14

Yeah, you know that the it doesn't matter exegesis of of the issue and you know did all this just off top my head but you know stuff from back in the 90s and debating the issue of the papacy and stuff like that and I just sort of hope that people just wouldn't fall asleep and and we'd move on from there alone lo and behold,

47:33

I go back Sunday evening to preach Sunday evening and Find out from one of the members there that they had visitors with them who were

47:40

Roman Catholic and They were barely able to contain themselves our members from from doing the fist pump in the air thing.

47:48

Yes Yeah, all right You know

47:56

Situation I didn't know I I Literally, I was staying there staring at my

48:01

Greek text all I had was a Greek text because that's I was preaching from that morning and I What am

48:07

I gonna do? Where am I gonna go here? Because the the computer failed me and ended up doing

48:13

Matthew 16 19 and they said I couldn't have been better Couldn't couldn't have been more perfect. So Evidently God can use

48:20

Vista the same way. He uses Satan in other places as well So that's what that's what happened in that guy

48:29

Excellent, I have a question. I'm a convert as well from a being a Baptist Thank you very much and you know, my family is heavily part of my family's heavily in the

48:41

Protestant faith and my brother -in -law was actually a Baptist youth minister or or pastor and Their big verse that they would always throw at me.

48:52

Unfortunately, I'm driving so I can't give you exact scripture reference But it's in Hebrews, I think and it says Christ died once and for all, you know, sort of that one sacrifice type of Now here

49:06

I'm gonna play this whole thing I think we've got just enough time to do it It's it's fairly long, but I want you to hear this isn't actually that bad.

49:14

It's not as it's not as fancily fancily, it's not to presented with as much floweriness as I've heard

49:23

Scott Hahn do it But how would you respond to this? how would you respond to because here's a good question and that is the once for all nests of the sacrifice of Christ now by the way

49:38

If you're gonna present that text make sure you realize that that's a it's a temporal adverb

49:43

Ha pox once for all or f a pox depending on which which one text in Hebrews. We're looking at here He didn't give a specific one.

49:49

It's a temporal adverb. What's temporal adverb? It refers to time It's not once in place of all people.

49:55

It's once for all time. That's what the term is and If you're gonna present this to this fellow who has converted

50:03

Roman Catholicism I would hope you would present it not just simply as once for all but then you would then

50:09

Contrast that with the repetitive nature of the old sacrifices.

50:14

It perfected. No one in Hebrews chapter 10 That's how you make it the most effective Little practical apologetics are but listen listen here.

50:24

This is the common response you need to this is what Catholics are listening to So you need to hear it.

50:29

So, you know how to respond sacrificing him over and over again on the altar Don't you Catholics know your Bible?

50:36

Times in Hebrews and it says at once in first Peter How many times does it have to say it before you quit offering

50:42

Jesus over and over again on your altars? That's right. That's what I hear Well, I'll tell you how you deal with that day.

50:51

First of all, it's absolutely right in space and time Jesus was crucified once and for all in Jerusalem in the end of the

50:59

Holy Sepulcher today And he did it there in the year around 30 AD. So absolutely he died once and for all in space and time, however

51:09

God is not in space and time. He is outside of space and time He created space and time like a bubble and then at one point in time

51:17

God The second person of the Trinity went came right into that bubble He had created and became part of space and time and there he died in Jerusalem and 30

51:27

AD on the cross once and for all he rose from the dead Ascended back into heaven who came right back out of the bubble and he's now seated in eternity outside of space and time with the father

51:38

So now how do we look at it? There's two different realms of reality here There's space and time where he died once and for all but in God's eyes

51:47

Every event is an eternal event And so the way I realize is the first time I ever sat in a

51:53

Catholic Church, January 1st of 1994 I saw all of this like a revelation because there

51:58

I saw the priest up there doing his thing from my perspective the first time I ever saw this taking place in front of my eyes, but I remembered in Revelation Chapter 13 verse 8 and in the two best

52:10

Protestant translations the King James and the NIV It says that Jesus Christ was crucified before the foundations of the world and I said to myself

52:20

Wait a minute. I used to say to Catholics He's crucified once and for all but if he was crucified once and for all in 30

52:26

AD in Jerusalem Then how could he have been crucified before the foundations of the world? Said again

52:32

Steve Revelation 13 8. Okay. That's what I just want to make sure He was crucified before the foundations of the world and it doesn't just say in God's mind

52:41

It says he was and so here I had to think of myself. Wait a minute outside of space and time It's an eternal event and then in Revelation 5 5

52:50

It says that Jesus is like that He is the Lamb of God standing on an altar in front of the throne of God and it says he's standing as a lamb

52:59

Slain a Passover lamb you take a knife You'd slice his throat hang him up over the altar by his back legs until all his blood drains out

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But John looks into eternity future and he sees a lamb Jesus Christ on this altar before the father as the sacrifice

53:15

The slain lamb, but still alive And so I said my goodness if Jesus was crucified the

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Lamb of God slain in Jerusalem in 30 AD Then how could he still be on the altar in front of God's throne in eternity future with his throat slit the sacrifice?

53:31

How can that be eternity past in eternity future and then at first John chapter 2 verse 2

53:37

It says that he is our perpetuatory sacrifice. Not that he was but that he is our

53:44

Perpetuatory sacrifice so eternity past eternity future and right this moment whether it's today or tomorrow

53:51

He is our sacrifice and I said to myself, that's what it is. The Eucharist is a

53:57

Representation of a already existing sacrifice that is before the eyes of God for all time and eternity

54:04

It is an eternal event to God And so when we come to mass on Sunday, it is not offering

54:11

Christ again and again a new sacrifice What's happening is it's being represented as the one and only sacrifice that is always before the eyes of God And so eternity comes slamming down through space and time and there on the altar

54:25

We are partaking of eternity part of that one and only sacrifice of Christ.

54:31

It's being represented Now the way you look at it is the Sun this morning. I got up and I saw the Sun come up Now, is it a new

54:37

Sun? Does it God give us a new Sun every day? Is it like a new sacrifice over and over again?

54:42

No It is the same Sun if you go in the space shuttle outside of our atmosphere And you get away from the earth you see that the

54:49

Sun is there all the time But we don't see it there all the time. It's kind of like an eternal event Every morning it's represented to us, but it's not a new

54:58

Sun It's the same one and every day the sacrifice of Christ is represented to us on the altar but if you go outside of the earth into outside of the space out away from space and time look at it from God's perspective that Sacrifice is always there.

55:13

But every morning it's like the Sun coming about it's being Represented to us on the altar and that's how you deal with that question

55:20

Yeah, I Wish I had kept the recording going because you get the wow, that's oh, man

55:27

Oh, wow type of response to all of that That's what you're gonna hear now, you're not gonna get the bloop stuff too much the bloop and the bubble stuff

55:36

This is the bloop bubble defense but and honestly the

55:41

Sun thing and the shuttle thing Does Make you just chuckle just a little bit

55:51

Because you're like what but you know, okay leaving those parts off What you're gonna get is since Christ himself is an eternal person

56:03

Then the sacrifice is eternal. Well, what does that mean?

56:10

Revelation 13 8 can be Translated in more than one way and in fact

56:15

I was watching as people in channel were popping it up in Greek in the channel and Looking at it and it can be translated as the

56:22

King James of the NIV has it or can be translated like the New American Standard in most other translations understand that the the from the foundation of the earth is in reference to the writing of the book of life not

56:35

To the being slain from the foundation earth, but that's not really the issue Because there really isn't any question that the sacrifice of Christ is an absolute certainty in God's sight and in Romans chapter 8

56:51

The golden chain of redemption is all in the past tense as well We have been glorified, but we know that we actually haven't yet experienced that So as it means does that mean that we have eternally been glorified?

57:03

I mean, would that make any sense? and I Really think that the the weight of this argumentation is

57:11

Is something I've seen before and this is something that Jerry Matta ticks was good at doing he he doesn't really end up answering most of the questions that are asked of him, but it is the lengthy fast

57:24

Repetition of Bible verses which most Catholics are not able to follow because they just don't know their Bibles to begin with That is impressive enough to make it sound like an answer is actually given

57:34

But no answer was given because the objection to the repetition of the sacrifice has to do with what the sacrifice accomplishes and If he has to admit that the sacrifice does not perfect any of those for whom it is made and that it has to be

57:55

Represented over and over again Then you can talk about bloops bubbles in space shuttles until the cows come home and you actually haven't addressed the issue and That's how

58:07

Catholic apologists do Catholic apologetics So anyways, that's the last of that I recorded

58:13

So I'm sure there was more we could look at and I'm sure that knowing Steve Ray he will keep himself out there throwing this stuff out right and left and When challenged will just ignore the challenges, that's how it's done folks

58:28

But we will keep doing the challenging because that's what we're supposed to do. We'll see you on Thursday Lord willing.

58:34

God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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