The Law and Gospel distinctions

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Black sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night.

A misprint with the sixth sense, been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.

My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dot sign and my

John Hancock on the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is

I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight.

Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

I'm within the deep end and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the

Reformed, I'm just another Baptist, baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist, host to child of Reformation society.

We don't need your education. Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men, cigars, bourbons, and beer cans.

Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men, making Reformation great again.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

No, you won't around me. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Open Air Theology.

We are live. If you have not clicked on to our YouTube channel, I would ask that you do so.

Get on there. Hit the like button. Share what it is that we are doing.

My name is Jeff Rice. I am one of the pastors of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church here in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

I'm here with my good buddy, Brayden. Haps isn't with us today. Brayden, introduce yourself. Yeah, I am

Brayden Patterson. I pastor a small church in southern Idaho. If you live near the area,

I would love for you to come check out Valley Baptist. Husband of Emily. We have two kids, one along the way right now.

And then also, Reformed Ex -Mormon is my YouTube channel. I'm just super blessed to be here. I'm a part of Open Air Theology.

Just still coming down from my Cloud 9 experience of being at the From Shadows to Substance with Jeffrey Rice and Haps Addison, which

I'm really bummed about that Haps isn't here right now. So he's still traveling home to California. So he's been no man traveling.

Yeah, definitely. And if y 'all will stay to the end of the program, we're going to be talking about the highlights of the conference, and then we'll be announcing the theme of the next conference.

So I hope you're ready to have that conversation, Brayden. Absolutely. So our subject for today, we're just going to jump right in it just for the sake of time.

And so we'll have plenty of time to talk about our our experience at the conference.

And then the theme for the next one, our theme for today is the law and gospel distinction, the law and the gospel distinction.

And I'm going to give two quotes just to show how important it is for the law and gospel distinction.

Charles Spurgeon. Everyone should know if you don't know who Charles Spurgeon is.

Get off here. Get off here. Just go read a book.

Good Lord. Google his name. Charles Spurgeon says this. If you understand the difference between the law and the gospel, you are a master theologian.

Theodore Baza, Calvin's successor, says this. We divide the word into two parts.

One is called the law and the other is called the gospel.

All right. The law and gospel distinction. We see Luther has a law, had a law and gospel distinction.

Calvin, Theodore Baza, all the reformers. Again, we just heard from Charles Spurgeon.

This is a Lutheran and reformed and by reformed, I mean reformed

Presbyterian and reformed Baptist. This is a reformed and Lutheran doctrine.

Right. You cannot be reformed and you cannot be Lutheran if you deny the law and gospel distinction.

There are some that would say that it's all law and it's all gospel. Well, ladies and gentlemen, that's not reformed theology.

And that is not biblical. If everything is all law, then there is no gospel.

And if everything is all gospel, then there is no law. And so one of the things that I hope that we're able to do today is to show that there is law in the new covenant.

And also that there is gospel in the old covenant. We want to show that there is a clear distinction between the two and that they are not the same thing.

I can keep going if you want me to, Brayden. Yeah, you just, you broke in at the end there for me. So I missed the last 10 seconds of what you just said there.

Oh, I'm sorry. Turn the mic over to me right there. I missed it if I, if you were. Well, I was just kind of, you know, speaking and thought that you would get excited.

I'm coming in right now. I'm coming in hot. I was just saying that, you know, they're not the same.

Yeah, no, they're not. I mean, even if, go ahead. I was going to say, I didn't come prepared with any quotes tonight and they are not the same.

I think that like, and I think we're going to see that develop a little bit by us saying that Jesus Christ lived the life.

We cannot live right there, right there. That shows a law gospel distinction by saying that he died the death that we deserve.

That's showing a law gospel distinction. The fact that we've been risen with him shows that, that it's not our doing.

It's not because of us keeping it. It's not us that is doing this. The law gospel distinction has to be maintained within the

Christian theology. Yeah, it absolutely does. So what we really have here to get,

I guess you would say, wordy is the imperative versus the indicative, right?

The imperative is do. So when someone tells you to do something, that's an imperative, right?

And the indicative is done. So if I told you, hey,

I just got done cooking a meal. If I tell you, which you won't ever hear that come out of my mouth, right?

Ask my wife. Well, let me just put it to her. So when my wife says supper is done,

I don't interpret that as I need to get in there and do something to cook myself a meal, right?

It's an indicative statement. Supper is done. That means it's finished.

Yeah. So the imperative is the law. Do do something.

You must do something. That's the law. And the law of God commands us to keep it in order to live.

Right. And we are called to keep it perfectly. According to Matthew chapter five, verse 20.

Listen to this. For unless I mean, excuse me. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So right here, we're told that we are to keep the law perfectly in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If you know anything about the scribes and Pharisees, these gents were really good at keeping an outward appearance of the law.

Right. That's where Jesus comes in in Matthew chapter 25. And as he lays down this idea of keeping that outward appearance, he goes and he breaks into, let's say, anger, lust, you know, things that are not outward appearance that everyone is guilty of.

Right. And he's using the law to condemn everybody. The indicative is gospel.

And in the gospel, God sent his son and he kept the law in our place.

This is where you are touching on. And the good verse to look at for that would be second

Corinthians chapter five, verse 21, which says. He made him speaking of God, the father made him got a son who knew no sin to be seen on our behalf.

Listen, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Now, notice what happens there. Remember, I said earlier, if my wife said, hey, suppers, suppers done.

I don't interpret that by thinking, hey, I need to go in here and cook me some supper. No, I need

I need to be ready to eat. She's telling me whatever it is that you're doing, stop it and feast on what

I just prepared for you. That's what this verse is saying, that that Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin so that I could become the righteousness of God in Christ.

And I would say that, again, this is not something that me and Braden are inventing.

And there's lots of biblical leaders.

I would call them leaders in the church, voices in the church today who are reformed and who also who are

Lutheran that are teaching these same things. And so what I'm about to say is not new to me.

I can't tell you who I got it from, but I can tell you I didn't make this up. OK, so so here's a good way to remember the law and gospel distinction.

I'm going to say this and I'm going to turn it over to Braden. The law is what

God requires and the gospel is what God provides.

Let me say that again. The law is what God requires. Do this.

The gospel is what God provides. It's done. It's finished.

I'm looking real fast to see because then I didn't I recently make a little quote about that with you that I think

I send it to you. The law is what God requires. The gospel is done.

No, I love it, brother. That's that's right on. I when you were talking about how the Pharisees viewed themselves,

Luke 18 on the on the the parable of the tax collector and the

Pharisee in verse nine. So Luke 18, verse nine and on. It's just been a verse that's been on my mind for a little while.

It says he also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt.

So so this is something that I think is really I actually just have been working on on a paper for my seminary, which

I was working off of a thesis that I said that that pride was sown within our nature at the fall of Adam.

Right. And I think this is this text shows it right. Like they're viewing others with contempt because they see themselves.

They're using the ladder or they're using the law like a ladder so that they can elevate themselves and look down on others.

And so the Pharisee, the Pharisees are viewing themselves as righteous.

And check out what it says. So two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood and was praying these things to himself. OK, we'll wrap back around to that here in just a moment.

He says, God, I thank you that I'm not like the other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

And I would pause right there and ask, is being a swindler or is not being a swindler, not being unjust, not being an adulterer?

Are those all good things? And they are right. This when you read this, we would walk away thinking that this

Pharisee was a just, moral, religious man. We would walk away with that conclusion.

And it says, I fast twice a week. I pay tithes to all that I get. But the tax collector standing some distance away was even unwilling to lift his eyes to heaven, but was beating his chest saying,

God, be merciful to me, the sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

And so what I would point out in here is to the person that thinks that the law and the gospel are entwined together and that one must obey it through a faith plus work salvation in that sense, or a faith plus works, even sanctification in that sense.

If we're not leaning upon the righteousness of Christ, we're leaning upon something else. We're letting go of that cross and we're looking for the fig leaves.

If we're not leaning and holding on to the cross, that cursed tree, we're going to be looking for the fig leaves to cover ourselves just like our father

Adam did. And so this man, the Pharisee, first of all, prays to himself.

He's made himself and his righteousness, his obedience to the law, an idol. And he's utilizing it as a way to look down upon others.

Whereas the sinner sees his sin in the law and requests from God to be justified.

And that's what Jesus says, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. Right there, that needs to be a clear law gospel distinction, in my opinion.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely has to be. Again, if you go back to where I quoted earlier, Romans chapter,

I mean, excuse me, Romans is good, but speaking of Matthew, Matthew chapter 5, it says,

For I say to you that unless your righteousness, this is your own righteousness. So what does righteousness mean?

Righteousness means law keeping. Yep. Right. That's what that means.

Unless your law keeping surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So right here, God has given us a scale to judge ourselves by when it comes to keeping

God's law. He says, if you're not doing it better than the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

And ladies and gentlemen, there's only one who has ever done better than the scribes and Pharisees because not only did he keep the outward appearance, but he also kept the inward reality of the law.

And then he did not lust. He did not get angry for no reason. And it's speaking of Jesus Christ.

And so what I want to look at real quick is I want to look at why it's important for believers when we read our

Bibles to have a law and gospel distinction. And I got written down right here.

I put it's important for you and I, when we read the Bible to know what is the law, meaning what is it that God requires?

What is the gospel? What is it that God provides? And I want to real quickly,

I stated this in the beginning, show from the Old Testament as well as the

New Testament. Law and gospel.

Now, Brayden, I know that you agree with everything I'm about to say. Amen. When Adam and Eve felled in the garden,

God gave a gospel proclamation. Did he not? Amen to that. Yes, he did. And this is in the old covenant.

Yep. God gave the gospel proclamation about the seed that was going to crush the head of the serpent while only bruising his heels.

Genesis 315. Proto -evangelium. Yeah. That one was coming from a woman who would bruise the head of the snake while only bruising his heel.

Abraham is told that his offspring would inherit the land and all the nations of the world would be blessed through that offspring.

Abraham's great -grandson Judah was told that the scepter would not pass from him.

All this stuff that I'm saying right here, this is gospel. This is good news. This is stuff that's done for them.

Moses was told to tell the people, his people, the

Jews, that a prophet like him was going to rise up from among his brothers and that the people who see this prophet are to listen to him.

This prophet coming is a gospel proclamation. This is good news.

This is something that God's going to do for him. David, who would go on to be King David from the tribe of Judah, think for a second the scepter will not pass.

He was told that one of his offsprings would keep the law of God and sit on the throne forever.

All these were promises, and all these promises point us to Jesus Christ, who is the gospel.

Jesus kept the law, and through his resurrection, he sits on the throne of David right now in heaven at the right hand of God.

Jesus, who had to be made like his brothers in every way, he who was the greater builder than Moses, he who is

King of kings and Lord of lords, and through his death he stripped

Satan of the power of death. Ladies and gentlemen, this is gospel. Remember, we just came off of this conference.

All these things were a shadow pointing to the substance of Jesus keeping the law.

So whenever we see in the Old Testament gospel, these gospel promises that are given to us in the

Old Testament, they are shadows that stop at the feet of Jesus Christ because he is the substance.

He fulfilled the gospel promises given to us in the Old Testament.

And likewise, real quick, I want to show the law in the New Testament. Listen to this.

If you don't think the New Testament has law, you haven't read your Bible. You must love the Lord your

God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.

Deny yourself. Take up your cross. Here's a good one from Jesus. Follow me.

You must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

Brayden, how are you doing with those? That sounds like a lot of law to go through right there.

I was actually, I was just in Matthew 19 with Luke 19. Where was I just at?

Matthew 19 with where he's telling the rich young ruler, go and sell all that you have and follow me.

And the rich young ruler isn't able to do it. Those are laws that he's giving to the people, commandments.

He's giving them the law. Let's just take one of those. Of course you haven't loved the

Lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, with all of your mind, with all your strength. Of course you don't have the ability to deny yourself perfectly and take up your death sentence, right?

Of course you can't be perfect as your heavenly fathers, as your father in heaven is imperfect.

But Jesus said, follow me. And listen, if you're listening to us right now, excuse me,

I want to ask you something. How are you doing with following Jesus?

Come on, I want some tension. I want somebody sweating. How are you doing? Because if you say that you're doing good, you do not read your

Bible. You do not understand your Bible. You do not understand who you are, who it is that you are.

As Christians, we're both saint and sinner, right? We can't even do the positive commands given to us by Jesus.

We need his aid and assist. We need the gospel.

We need to hear, this is what we need to hear, gospel.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God. I want you to notice the two things.

I'm just going to use those two things. I'm going to turn it over to Brayden again. Jesus said, follow me.

Is that law or gospel? If you say gospel, you're not a master theologian.

If you say gospel, you're not a master theologian according to Charles Spurgeon. That is law.

Now here's another one. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing.

It is the gift of God. It is not a result of works so that no one may boast.

What is that? Is that law or gospel? If you say that's law, again, you are not a master theologian.

You do not know how to read your Bible. Ladies and gentlemen, that is gospel. The law is what

God requires. Follow me. The gospel is what God has provided.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And it is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God so that no one may boast.

My mind is jumping around a thousand places right now immediately. I'm sorry, brother. No, it's good.

It's good. Immediately I'm thinking simultaneously justified, yet still the sinner. Like what you just brought up, that we're saved by the gospel, yet we're a saint and we're a sinner in these ways.

And we have to remember the reason that we are a saint or the reason that we're justified was even Dr. James White in that message that he gave on Sunday at your church.

It's like the snow that's covered the dung pile, right? It wasn't that the dung pile made itself justified.

It wasn't that the dung pile produced anything that was of worth. We've been covered by that which is of worth. And that's because Jesus Christ was able to obey that law perfectly.

Even in God's commands that I would that ye should be perfect, even as my Father in heaven is perfect, right?

Perfection is not something that's earned. Perfection is something that starts day one and continues on. If you've ever broken a single one of the laws, you're guilty of them all.

And there is nothing that you can do that you can do that will ever erase that sin that you've previously committed.

Therefore, you are never going to be perfect if you're not already perfect.

Does that make sense what I'm saying? You can't go from breaking

God's law to then being able to be obedient to it to then erase the law that was previously committed. Day one, because of Adam, your nature, you have fallen and you are in need of someone else to come and be your new representative.

And that's what we're talking about when we're saying that we're justified. When Jesus says, do

X, Y, and Z things, those things have to have a clear line drawn in the sand that that is a law.

That's something that Jesus is telling me that I have to do. And even if I thought

I was doing it, I'm going to be just like the Pharisees and use it as a ladder and look down on others. I don't do those things.

I'm not perfect. I can't ever become perfect, yet I can be covered by the one that was perfect.

The gospel. I can have my death there with him on the cross. Me be buried with him.

Me be risen with him. Me being seated with him in the heavenly places. Somebody had just quoted in here, or had said, the things

I want to do, I don't. And the things that I do, the things that I don't want to do, I do.

Paul, right? It's Paul. Romans 6, I believe that's where it's talking about.

Is it Romans 7? I apologize. Yeah, Romans 7. Let me just read a couple of these verses here.

So, verse 1 and on it says, Or do you not know, brothers, for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law is the master over a person as long as he lives, for the married woman has been bound by the law to her husband while he was living.

But if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she'll be called an adulteress.

But if her husband dies, she is free from the law. Now, let me pause there. This husband that it's making reference to is speaking about Jesus Christ.

The husband that dies is speaking about Jesus Christ. So that she will not be an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

So my brothers, you also were made to die to the law through the body of Christ.

He paid the penal code that you are deserving of to the law. So that you might be joined to another.

To him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.

So when Christ rose from the grave, we've now been married to him in that sense. We've been joined together with him in that sense.

And every time that we are trying to go back to the law as a means of justifying ourselves, as a means of being a ladder to look down on others, as a means of whatever it is, when we let go of that cross, when we step out of the empty tomb, when we get away from the gospel, we then go back to the first husband, the law.

We become an adulterer of our spiritual husband, Jesus Christ, in those senses. And there's a real danger in doing these things.

And it's shortly after this, that's where that quote would then come in. That the things I don't want to do, I do.

And the things that I do want to do, I don't do. Paul is making reference in here that the things that he finds himself continually doing is him being this raised from birth

Pharisee, Hebrew of the Hebrews, is he keeps on falling back into this old way of wanting to obey the law.

And Paul himself is saying, I've got to cut that off. I've got to stop doing that. I'm in Christ. That's my identity now.

Most people will look at that as if it's talking about daily sins.

Let's say anger, lust, or whatever it is. But we would say that no, this is the law.

That the law, him being a Pharisee of the Pharisees, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, like this is that thorn in his flesh.

It's that thing that's pulling him back as he's trying to live a life trusting in the finished work of Christ.

He still has this law kind of yanking him back. And I think that's why we see such harsh, firm language with these things.

That if you think you're justified by the law, Christ died needlessly. If you think righteousness, no, we're justified apart from these things.

It's over and over and over and over again. And so once you understand the difference between the law and the gospel, once you understand there's a difference, there's a distinction, it's kind of like, again,

I'm not speaking for everyone because I know that we probably have people that watch us that are not

Reformed. But once you start understanding Reformed theology, whether it be

Calvinistic or Covenantal, you see it everywhere.

Once you discover something in Scripture, it's really hard to find a book in a chapter that you don't see it in.

And I would say the same thing with this. And I would also want to bring up that tonight's conversation, if taken by itself, might be confusing.

But next week, we're going to be really, really diving in to the three uses of the law.

So the three uses of the law. We're going to try to leave no stone unturned.

So we want to really give to you a robust Reformed outlook of God's law and how it is that it is applied.

If you remember from previous episodes, we have spoke against something called, dun, dun, dun, the

Ottoman. You just said it. Don't say it two more times or something will appear on the podcast.

False politics will appear. Oh, yeah, that's right. So what we want to do is to show what

Orthodox Reformed theology has always taught concerning this. And so whenever we do get back into the subject of theonomy, you'll understand why it is we say that this is not for the church.

And it's especially it's not for those who are Reformed, whether it be

Presbyterian or Baptist. And I would say that Baptists are the true reformers.

OK, so I figure I'd punch everybody in the mouth right there.

You just did. It's all good. It's all good now. All right.

So concerning the law and gospel distinction, I want to just go back real quick and I want to lay down that definition of the imperative and the indicative.

Right. So the imperative, which is the law, it means do this, do something such as follow me and follow me would be a positive law.

This is something that's good. Like you don't have to go into the Mosaic covenant, the

Mosaic law and grab something from it. And, you know, to to to make a point like you can take a positive law, a good law.

Should we follow Jesus? Yes. All day, every day. But we in within in and of ourselves fell miserably.

But to understand that by him telling us to do something that he has given us a command.

And because it's a command, it is an imperative and it means to do.

And by inference, it mean it's it's law. Can I interrupt you real fast on just something on that?

If if if if a Christian says that following that come follow me, that Jesus commands them to do with that, if they mix that with the gospel, what are we going to have

Christians doing? We're going to have Christians boasting about how they follow Jesus better and how they know that they're the true.

We all know that I follow Jesus better than Brayden, right? No, because I hold the gospel law distinction.

I know Jeff does a better job than I do. Right. No, no. But like, truly, truly, we're going to I was just playing. OK, I appreciate that.

I know that you know that I'm just talking to this audience. OK, OK. It's true.

I was just playing. No, I don't. I don't either. But seriously, like we're going to have people.

We have pastors that are going to start putting steps behind their pulpit. We're going to have pastors that start standing on the pulpit.

We're going to have pastors that start putting ladders on their stage. Right. So that they can elevate themselves above other

Christians. Right. And so, like, that's the danger when we start not if when we start confusing and confounding these things, that we're going to utilize them in the same way that the

Pharisees would utilize the law as a means of being justified over another person. I was begging for mercy from God.

And that's truly the danger of pride within our nature, is that we want to hold on to something that we think that we can justify ourselves, not even just before God about, but something

I can justify myself before Jeff about. And that's dangerous. That's dangerous.

Yeah. Yeah. Very good point. So, again, the imperative is do.

The imperative is law. Do this and live. The indicative is done.

The indicative is Jesus on the cross and his very last words when he says it is finished.

That is the gospel. Everything that was required for the redemption of mankind was finished on that cross.

When death blow is given. Yeah. When the when the wrath of God and the mercy of God met and the wrath of God that I deserve fell on Jesus and the mercy of God that I don't deserve can come to me because it is finished.

He has lived the life that I could not live and has taken the punishment that I deserve and his death and through his burial and resurrection.

He has pronounced victory over what he has done.

And he sits at the right hand of the throne of David. Right. So with that said, if you mix the two,

I think I think it was Michael Horton and Michael Horton has a really good book on this. For some reason,

I can't remember the name. I'll try to remember and put it in the show notes. Has a real good book about this, but but but but he

I believe he coins a word and it's called Glosspool.

Who did this? Michael Horton. Oh, that doesn't sound right.

Yeah. Glosspool. Glosspool. Yeah. Glosspool. Yeah. If you take the indicative and the imperative, the law and the gospel and you put them together, you have

Glosspool. It's neither the law and it's neither the gospel. It's not good. There's no such thing.

You cannot have the law and the gospel to mix together. You have to you when you read your

Bible, you have to understand that there's a distinction. There's some of it's the law and the others is the gospel.

Again, to quote Theodore Beza, this is Calvin's successor, right?

This is one of the main reformers. We divide this word right here.

You know, you're looking at it right here. This word, the Bible, we divide this word into two parts.

One is called the law and the other is called the gospel, the gospel.

You have to understand when you read the Bible, some of it, some of what you're reading is the law.

And the next week we'll kind of look in. We'll look at the third use of the law.

And we'll see like the those positive laws such as follow me.

And we'll see that these are things that that that we as Christians, we need to be following Jesus.

But we also need to understand that this is something that's impossible for us in and of ourselves to do.

Right. Whenever whenever I am doing good.

Right. So whenever Jeff on his best day, ladies and gentlemen, that's not Jeff. That's that's

Christ in me, the hope of glory. All right. When Jeff picks out his hand and says, hey, what's what are you guys doing?

It's trouble every time. It's trouble every time. Right. I made

I made a I'm like, well,

I was going to I won't save it for next week. I'll just say it now. I might have said this before.

I've said it that I said it in our church as I was preaching that the

Christian life is a dog race. It's if you can imagine a greyhound lining up.

Yeah, I think I've said this on this episode. You have these greyhound dogs lined up and then all and then they're surrounded by other dogs are surrounded by a crowd.

There's, you know, their owners along the sideline.

And all of a sudden, a mechanical rabbit pops up and takes off. And those dogs, all that they're doing is they see that rabbit.

They're focused on that rabbit and they begin to chase that rabbit. Ladies and gentlemen, that's the Christian life.

When we're living our life in Christ, we're looking to Jesus Christ the same way as those greyhounds are looking to that mechanical propelled rabbit.

And if that if one of those dogs take their eyes off of that rabbit, when I last time I said this on the show,

Braden said they're going to bump into another dog. Right. Oh, that's what's going to happen when we're living our lives.

We need to be focused on Jesus Christ. And that's what third use of the law is all about.

And we'll get into all that stuff next week. Yeah. Yeah, I again,

I and I I appeal to that paper that I'm writing right now. And as I said previously, as soon as we let go of that bloody cross, we go and we seek out a means of hiding ourselves in the midst of fig trees.

We run to justify ourselves just as Adam did in the garden.

We will seek any means possible to do so. And in that can be an appeal to something that seems good to us.

It can be an appeal that sounds good to us. I mean, to Adam and even the garden in that example, again,

I'm naked. I need to cover myself. I need to do this. I need to do this. I can I can make fig leaves.

I can cover my nakedness. Those things sound somewhat good to do.

You're trying to right your wrongs. Right. You're trying to you're trying to do this and this and this. Right. But the reality is that every time we let go of the cross, we seek out a means to justify ourselves.

And that is that is wrong. We need to we need to be continually pressing our our hands, our body against that cross, because that's the only place where salvation reigns.

And I think by doing such, we're going to live certain ways that we're going to stay in our lane as a

Christian. Right. We're going to we're going to run that race. We're not going to bump into each other because our eyes are all focused on that same prize.

Our eyes are all focused on that cross. And I think that that's what it is.

By living a faithful new covenant, living a faithfully faithful filled life as a new covenant member is one that that continually remembers how sin was paid for, how how our transgressions have been wiped away.

Yeah, I agree, man. I think you pointed out something really, really good concerning law and gospel distinction when it comes to the garden.

The law was them making their own fig leaves.

Yep. The gospel was God coming down, slaughtering an animal to clothe them with.

And he doesn't he doesn't say, hey, Adam, go ahead and pick back up those fig leaves to cover the rest of your body or to do something that I didn't do for you.

Right. They walked out of there with blood dripping on them with the new sacrifice that was given there.

They walked out. They were cast out of the garden with those things on them. Right. Like when we're in this world as ambassadors, we must not bear the fig leaves.

We must bear the sacrifice. Yeah. I agree, man.

So I think a lot of what we're going to say are, you know, so we'll end it there.

I just conference talk. Yeah. Well, I mean, before we end it,

I just want to ask one question. We'll get into the conference talk.

And then next week, as we're breaking through, as we're as we're walking through the.

The three uses of the law, I'm sure we're going to be reaching back into this episode and reminding you of the law and gospel distinction.

Yeah. But the question that I want to ask is, do you want to be a master theologian?

I really want you to ask yourself that. Like, I don't care who you're in front of. You know, ask yourself, do

I really want to be a master theologian? And if you do, you must have a distinction between the law and the gospel.

Now, this is something that I've told several people in my congregation and people that have asked me questions.

One thing I believe we need to do is we need to get out of the echo chamber. I don't know who it is that you listen to, but I mean, even to us, right.

If you listen to us regularly, I don't want to be a hindrance on anyone.

My first advice would be get out of the echo chamber, test everything that we're saying with Scripture.

Amen. When you read your Bible, read your Bible with your confession, whether it's 1689, 1646, whatever it may be.

Read your Bible with your confession. Also read your Bible and your confession along with church history while studying church history.

Also, while you're reading your Bible and your confession and studying church history, read and study the creeds.

And ladies and gentlemen, I believe that when you do that, you're going to have a robust theology.

You're going to have a long gospel distinction, and you're going to be held into the three uses of the law.

And you're not going to need what's called dun dun dun. Don't say it.

That's the second time. Oh, man, we only got one time left. All right, I'll stop there and we're going to move on to conference talk.

Brayden, man, I tell you what, brother, I mean, we've known each other for a year.

Yeah, we've been talking via the Internet and having a podcast and texting back and forth.

And so we finally got to meet face to face, you, me,

Habs. And we had that conference and you were able to meet the members of my church, my other elder,

Pastor Cal. And then it was just it was just a sweet time. Man, we got to to meet and hang out with so many men and.

Who who love the Lord and hang out, go out to eat, go to the cigar shop.

I mean, it was just amazing. If you asked me if you asked me how good

I thought it was going to be. It wouldn't have been I wouldn't know.

There's no way I could imagine it being as good as it was. No. Right.

This was our first conference. I was scared to death that no one was going to show up.

And man, it was the first day. There was a good turnout.

Second day, a better one. A third, even a better one. Yep. And then it was just a a wonderful time.

And the Lord, it was wonderful to get to meet you in person, face to face.

Brayden walked in, he lifted me over his head. I wish

I didn't put you back down either. Should have brought you back to Idaho with me. So what was your thoughts of everything?

Well, just to kind of recap on what you just said there. I can't thank the people of your congregation enough.

It was such a blessing to be able to worship God with them, to see them come alongside their pastor and support them in the ways that you were trying to go about things.

I walked away so encouraged by your co -elder, your deacon, all the people in your church.

It was truly a blessing to see that. That was one thing

I walked away from this conference from, was just a renewal and knowing. Because if we stay in our echo chamber, even in the idea of I know that where I preach at,

I preach the gospel continually. I know that my preaching post right now where I'm at, praise the

Lord, I'm trying my best to exalt Christ. Trying my absolute best to do so.

I fell miserably, don't think I'm trying to boast right now, but I know that I'm trying my hardest to do it.

I do fail. I know that there's a few other churches around these areas that do such. And so then just to go to Tennessee in this small church next to a tattoo shop and hear yourself and these other men and these believers all coming and exalting

Christ was just like, God is good. God is so good to see. That was so wonderful to see.

And so I was so encouraged, just renewed in the spirit. I was exhausted as all get out the next couple of days, but I was so ecstatic just to know that Christ was being preached and was being exalted in other parts of the world, in other parts of the

United States. That was fantastic. The fellowship, oh my goodness, brother. I know that we've only known each other for a year, year and a half now, right?

It just felt weird. This is the Jeff I've been talking to the whole time.

And it didn't add anything. It was fun being there in person, but it was just like, man, these are exactly what we do on podcast nights.

This is exactly how we act. It was just cool that there wasn't any phoniness there.

It was just immediate brotherhood, right? And I got to say, we had dispensational premillennialists there.

We had historical premillennialists. We had historical idealist premillennialists. We had amillennialists.

I know, I didn't know that existed, but it exists. We had amillennialists. We had amillennialists, postmillennialists, theonomy, non -theonomists.

We had, like I said, Presbyterians, Baptists, and everybody.

It was some of the most deep theological conversations I've ever had. And everybody was in great fellowship the whole time.

Even in disagreements, even in our disagreements. Yeah. Especially with Andrew.

That's who I was thinking of, Andrew. Praise the Lord that we have Andrew praise the

Lord that Andrew is a brother of ours. I'm so grateful to God that I know Andrew.

Yeah, it was remarkable. It was not not remarkable, unremarkable, like, like just being around that atmosphere.

The preaching was truly like the cherry on top the substance was the fellowship, and maybe it like one corner of the frosting was

James White's debate, like, like, truly, it was it was just amazing.

It was I mean, I mean, I mean, I don't want to take anything away from the debate. The debate was great, you know, debate. Yeah, the debate was great.

But yeah, a lot of people traveled in just for the debate. And let me tell you something. They missed it.

Yep. You got only you only got one course of the eight course meal that was served those days like it was and it was a good meal.

It was a great day. Absolutely amazing. Like, the whole thing was, again, man, it's surpassed.

I'm just, you know, just just being there and listening, you know, because I sit front row and Brady and you set front row with me, and listening to all those men and women sing hymns and psalms.

Right. It was so powerful, so powerful. And I was just, man,

I was just blown away. The praying every day. Yeah, like preaching was

I'd look over and Brady, he's crying like a little schoolgirl. That's a fact. Like, I just was wiping my ears.

I was like, I'm just gonna start wasting tissues. I'm just gonna let it go. The preaching was second to none.

Second to none. And I've been telling people all, you know, constantly. I love the big conferences.

We're going to the G3 conference. Our business is going to have a booth there. But, but again, you need to be going and listening to people that you haven't heard before.

Yeah. And these guys at the conference who no one listens to, but me, and they're probably their congregation, because I listen to them all regularly.

Second to none. There's a reason why I, throughout my week, listen to these guys.

Phenomenal preachers. And again, for the most part, theologically, we don't agree on everything.

But that's where the, the, the, the, the lunch fellowships and the dinner fellowships and hanging out the cigar shop was so much fun.

Right? We were arguing like schoolgirls. There was a group of guys that would walk by and be like, what are you guys doing here?

You know, we're brothers. And there was a group of guys that came over and they came and asked us, they were like, we have never heard in our lifetime, such a deep conversation about what you guys are talking about right now.

Like, you guys are more than welcome to join us. They're like, nope, we're good. It was amazing. Yes. So an ex gangbanger, an ex

Mormon and an ex Jehovah's witness walk into a cigar shop. And before you think

I'm about to tell you a joke, that's, that's really what happened. It's fact.

Yeah, it's fact. I was the ex gangbanger. I was there. And I found out from Brady that not only was

I an ex gangbanger, but I was also an ex cult member. Higher up cult member too.

Yeah. Higher up ex cult member. Yeah. Jeff was telling me stuff. I was like, dude, you were in a cult.

Like you were in more of a cult than I was in a cult. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, man.

It was such an amazing time, man. Oh man. So I'm thinking next year to have it in March.

The weather will be a lot better and we'll be able to really do some street preaching.

That one night was really, really cold. Oh, it was freezing that one night. Hurricane, like not hurricane, tornado warnings that night.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're out there. We're out to eat and we can hear the tornado siren. I can't let this guy get sweeped away in the wind.

Okay. Post -Tenebrous Lutz Bible rebinding. Go check him out.

All right. So you want to talk about the next conference? Yeah, let's hear it.

All right. Well, I know the theme. Have you gotten a title yet for it or are you still working on the title?

Well, the theme is the title of this. Okay. Well, go on and announce it.

Let's hear it. Do you know it? I'm on the edge of my – I thought I know it, but now you're making me question if I know it or not.

I don't want to look like a fool when I announce what's not the conference. Do you read the text messages?

Not always. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, dude. Absolutely, I do. All right. The last time

I heard about it, it was the – because did it get changed from what the TV show to now something else?

Yes, yes. Okay. Okay. You see, I'm happy I didn't say it because I would have said something else. Because I didn't want any confusion.

I think confusion is good. Yeah. Well, of course you do. You're an ex -Mormon. Mormons don't have law and gospel distinction.

Nope. They're not master theologians. They're like manure -filled theologians.

I'm thinking the theme of the next conference is going to be called,

Why Calvinism? That's right. Why Calvinism? Do you remember now?

I do remember now. I really do read all the messages. Trust me. I promise. Why Calvinism? Yeah.

We really want to look into – there's been several

Calvinism conferences, and we want to make this one not like those.

We want to look at – we definitely want to explain the historical part of Calvinism, how it fits into orthodoxy, but why it's important.

Why is having a Calvinistic theology important?

We're going to really dive into that. We're going to answer a lot of objections, and we're going to try to get someone to come and debate.

Maybe Layton Flowers. I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. We're hoping to find an opponent that's against Calvinism who would be willing to come and debate.

Why Calvinism is going to be the next one. I got a gentleman.

What's the name of his podcast that he does, the guy that just had

Layton Flowers on? Conversations with a Calvinist. Conversations with a Calvinist. Yep, yep, yep.

It's a dead man walking podcast, but Conversations with a Calvinist. Yeah, so we're going to have

Conversations with a Calvinist. Keith Foskey, I think is how he said his last name.

Yep. We're going to have him to come and explain the Calvinism of Luther, the

Calvinism of Luther. So we're really going to be diving into Reformation theology concerning Calvinism and maybe looking at some of Augustine, the

Calvinism of Augustine. And we're going to definitely excuse me, go over the five points.

We're going to definitely look at how to apply the doctrines of grace in witnessing how to apply the doctrines of grace in everyday living.

So it's going to be good. Yeah. So be looking out for it.

I plan on getting a website put up for open air theology here in the next month or so.

I'll take some of the money that I got from the conference to open it. And we're going to start advertising, doing most of our advertising, launching from this website.

Anything you'd like to add? No, I think that hopefully in the future that that's where hopefully we can start making a show that's just on Facebook right now, more into a true podcast where you can find it on different platforms.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So through the website, once we get the website, excuse me.

I got sick really bad last Wednesday. I went to the phone store, went to look at a phone and started messing around with a phone that I really wanted.

It's one of those ones that were on display. And then after whenever I got home that night,

I was working on my sermon. I started feeling a tickle in my throat. And so I think from playing with that phone that, you know, hundreds of other people

I've played with that day, I picked up something. So I still have a little cough.

Yeah, I still have a little cough, but I definitely feel better. Praise God.

Yeah. Because you had a high fever, too, and it was over 104.

Yeah. So why Calvinism? Why Calvinism?

I think it's going to be good. It'll be real good. Yeah. Trying to think of all trying to think of all the topics that we could do.

How many are we going to do like the same thing? Three days, four days, maybe three days. We're going to do three days,

Thursday, Friday and Saturday. And then we'll have preachers and everything.

I'm not sure yet. Okay. I'm not sure yet.

We'll talk. We'll talk. Yeah. We have to figure out how many messages. We already know that there has to be five messages concerning the doctrines of grace.

And so I'm thinking we'll do those five all in one day. So Friday, like this last conference, we had five messages.

And so we'll have five messages on Friday. We have four on Thursday, five on Friday.

And then we had one on Saturday, along with the question and answers.

I definitely want my topic to be Calvinism inside the new covenant. Something like that.

That would be my hope. I could talk on something like that. That would be really cool. Yeah. I think that's fantastic.

Yes. Yeah. Now I'm thinking. Now I'm thinking.

I should have said that one. No, I got it. It's mine. Steal it. Yeah. So we're not really sure yet exactly all the topics.

This is something that we'll have to kick around. But we definitely don't want it to be like anything else you can click on.

Yeah. Which I think that's kind of what we did with the From Shadows to Substance conference.

We were like, man, we got to find something that no one. Like something not just to be controversial for controversy, but we got to find something that is a need.

That's something that a lot of people would love to come and see and be a part of. From Shadows to Substance was a fantastic.

I walked away from there feeling so edified just on the scriptural exposition.

And so then something on Calvinism, I think, would be right on that same path, right?

On that same sidewalk of people that come to this should walk away edified with everything that preachers are saying.

And maybe probably hit on that quote where Charles Spurgeon.

And again, I'm not saying this to pick a fight. Charles Spurgeon said that Calvinism is the gospel.

Yeah. And so maybe one of the messages could be the gospel in Calvinism.

Yeah. And so where someone is basically using the doctrines of grace to pull from it what

Charles Spurgeon meant when he said those words. We don't think that Charles Spurgeon was speaking flippantly, right?

We think that there was a purpose behind him saying that. And so maybe extract from that what he is saying to show what we think he meant by that.

I think that would be a good. That would be a really good. That would be really, really good.

I could only imagine that there's some Calvinists that use that in the wrong means. And I know

Arminian would like totally take that off the sidetracks and say, oh, well, that's not right. Right.

And so, like, that would be really applying. Yeah. Now my mind's like going 100 miles per hour just thinking about my topic and all the other topics that we could discuss on something like that.

Having Keith there to talk about the Calvinism of Luther would be fantastic. Having a debate would be super, super cool.

Well, John Coble, if you come, brother, I'll preach whatever you want me to preach about.

Oh, yeah. John Coble. Yeah, that's a good idea. He's the guy that got me started street preaching.

Oh, really? Yeah. So when I when I when I first met him, I was we had rented a booth at a flea market.

And as people were walking by, we would we try to hand them a gospel track and have conversation.

And John Coble had come up behind me and I was I was speaking to someone witnessing the gospel and maybe even got, you know, a line going and was talking to several people.

And after the and after everyone had left, I turned around and I was like, OK, this guy seems interested.

I want to witness to him. And I try to hand him a track and witness to him. He said, hey, I'm one of you guys.

And man, we became such good friends after that.

And that's cool. Yeah. So he at the time, he wasn't doing a lot of one on one witnessing. And me and Jamie Terry, Jamie, remember he was on our podcast.

We weren't doing any street for a guy. Yeah. Yeah. We thought about it, but we were too scared. And John was going out on the regular, just open air preaching.

And so John would hang out with us and and come witnessing one on one with us.

And then eventually he got us to go downtown and stand on a box and yell at people. And it was it was amazing.

I was so terrified. What's this guy got me doing? Yeah. Now I love it.

That's cool. That's really cool. Well, man, you want to end it right there? Yeah, we'll end it right there.

Just by way of reminder, next week, we're going to do the three the three uses of the law.

And we'll kind of pick back and forth through what we spoke about tonight. But remember, all you that all you guys that study the

Bible, if you want to be a master theologian, listen to Charles Spurgeon. You must have a law and gospel distinction.

If you do not have a law and gospel distinction, you will not be a master theologian. And if you claim to be reformed.

But you don't hold to the law and gospel distinction. Listen to me. You're not.

You're not reformed. You're not historical. You're something else.

That's just how it is. But I love everybody in the Lord. You got any last words? Oh, I run to the cross, not the fig trees.