September 2, 2004

Harold Camping’s New Date Setting and Failed Predictions

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

And good afternoon, welcome to The Dividing Line. It is a hot one out there today. I was just on my motorcycle and I am now starting to see the brilliance of Harold Camping. You know, I mean, I had to stop at this one stoplight and you just sort of sit there, you know, and it's...

What is the temperature? Let's see here. It says it's only 105 at the moment. It seems a lot hotter than that, but you sit there and you just wait for that light. And there's 1 ,100 cc's throb away down there and the heat comes up and your feet are on fire because they're sitting on the pavement and that light just sits there.

And I started figuring, you know what? 2011 sounds good. 2011 sounds good to me. Did you hear about that? I still need to blog this. But there's a new date. I had heard this a couple of weeks ago, but last night I got in the car.

I was heading down to a prayer meeting. And I don't do this purposefully. I've dealt with Harold Camping. Harold Camping is beyond correction. He's, you know, there's nothing really left to say about Harold Camping.

If you can believe that guy's absolutely whacked out interpretations of things, then, you know, you're not really going to... What I have to say isn't going to make much sense, let's put it that way. And so I don't go listening to him.

He's on here locally. But I don't listen. I mean, it was bad enough having to listen to him so much and preparing to write the book years ago. But I have one of those really cool new things that you can plug in, like your MP3 player or your CD player.

You plug it into this thing and it broadcasts to your FM radio in your car. So it's like 88 .1, 88 .3, 88 .5, and 88 .7 or something like that. So I was about to tune it over to 88 .1, which is where I have mine set.

And lo and behold, there was Harold Camping. And the caller was asking good questions. And so I thought, all right, let's listen for a while. And basically the caller was asking about his new date. And so I got to hear him specifically say, yes, well, when we read the Bible, we see that God is telling us that we are in the tribulation period.

And we know we are in the second part of the tribulation period from reading the Bible. And we know from what God is telling us that everything will be wrapped up in 2011, seven years from now. So I'm hearing him talking about 2011.

And the guy is asking him some good questions like, didn't you say something about 1994? And, of course, we've got the, well, we didn't know everything we know now. There's been so much light that's been revealed.

And who knows, maybe more light will be revealed in the future. And so maybe we'll have to make some adjustments. He has made, I mean, we're talking, he has given himself so many outs on this one. Of course, how old will he be in 2011?

Will he be about 95 or something? I mean, please. And so anyway, he was, one of the things he said at one point last night was, I love to learn from the callers, and I'm very happy to learn from people when they speak from the Bible.

But when my critics criticize me, they don't show me from the Bible where I'm wrong. So I would like to hear from the Bible. And it's like, oh, Harold, please. Utterly and completely beyond any type of dialogue, interaction, you know, the lights are on, nobody's home, vacancy signs out, but there's no room left.

I mean, it's just, there's no communication there, just completely. So anyway, 2011, start making your plans now. There's just, there's no end. And you know what? There's going to be people doing the same thing that they did in 1994 for 2011.

I mean, I've talked to folks back on Long Island, people who sold stuff, and they were, they were, what was the, they bought a, they rented a plane. And they had a big banner made and had this plane flying around Jones Beach in Long Island.

About 1994, repent, 1994 is at hand, and stuff like that. And, you know, I mean, people who were selling their houses, and I met people, I started going back to, what, 96? And so it was only, you know, a very short period of time after that.

But I met people who were just then recovering from their commitment to Harold Camping. And, you know, they had not yet recovered financially from what they did as a result of that. And so, you know what?

It does not matter that he pulled 1994. It does not matter that he has demonstrated himself to be completely untrustworthy as a Bible teacher, completely incapable of accepting correction, completely clueless as to what hermeneutics means or exegesis or anything else.

There's going to be people who are going to fall for it again, what, 17 years later. I just, there is no end. It seems today the wackier, goofier, stranger, more inane your teaching is, the more likely you're going to gather yourself a nice big group that's going to just open their wallets wide and throw it your direction.

I was saying to a friend of mine yesterday, in light of various things going on right now, that I said, brother, sounds like the only ones left are you and I. And I'm starting to worry about you. There is insanity all around us.

It is just really, really odd. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. And let's, let's, well, yep, let's go ahead and do it.

That's the Spanish Inquisition. I am usually referred to as the master. There are some who call me...

Yes, indeed, it is time for our favorite, favorite segment on The Dividing Line today. Dave Armstrong on Catholic Answers. And boy, I'll tell you, if you've been to Dave's blog recently, Dave's just playing along with the game.

You know what I mean? Yes, indeed. And what is the question for today? It is, how can you self-destruct two times on your own blog? I'll tell you. James White's three-ring sophistry circus, his critique of my radio talk on solo scriptura.

And, you know, I feel, sometimes I feel sorry for old Dave, because Dave just, no matter what he does, he's just going to prove that what we're saying is right. You know, he has to go back to, you know, talk about, well, we had this huge postal debate.

Postal debate. Yes, postal. I like postal. In fact, here's postal .wave. This is what postal .wave sounds like. Special delivery. Yes, he goes postal. Postal debate. We didn't have a postal debate. He wrote me some letters years and years ago.

I wrote him some letters back. That becomes a debate. Boy, that is absolute pure desperation. It truly is. So, anyways, we've got another entry on the blog. And all Dave's doing is just demonstrating that what we've been saying for a long, long time is actually true.

But we're going to go back to Dave Armstrong's appearance on Catholic Answers. And if I recall, I may skip past some of this if it sort of stops in the middle of the sentence. Don't worry about it. But we're coming up to a commercial break, as I recall.

And it was interesting what commercials you have on Catholic Answers. Let's see if that's where we were. All right. Well, I'll tell you what.

We have two more. I'm just going to mention them here. And we'll get into them a bit later on in the program. Good Lord willing, we have phone lines here. So we are going to start taking some calls for Dave Armstrong in a moment.

Point number nine is that Paul assumes that his passed-down tradition is infallible and binding. We'll ask Dave about that before the show ends. And number ten, sola scriptura is a, as Dave says, a radically circular position.

We'll have him explain that as well. But these are the points we wanted to make on today's program. Again, as we open up a phone line, you're welcome to join us, 888 -318 -7884. Why we need more than the Bible, that is our topic of discussion here on Catholic Answers Live with Dave Armstrong.

You who are on hold will start taking your calls when we return in just a moment. Catholic Answers Live is brought to you in part by the support of Siena Communications. Thank you, Siena Communications.

Siena Communications is a uniquely Catholic-owned and operated company. Committed to responsible corporate citizenship. Providing high-quality products. Skip ahead here. Siena-group .com and the like.

Every one of them can be answered when you have recourse to Catholic Answers' brand new Papacy Learning Guide. Papacy Learning Guide. Call the number you have today, 888 -291 -8000. Or log on to www .catholic .com.

I need that. Rich, put that on the list. Steve Ray and Dennis Walters combined to produce what may be one of the single most thorough yet concise resources ever published that deals with the papacy and why Jesus left his church in the hands of one man and his successors for 2 ,000 years.

One man and his successors for 2 ,000 years? Wait a minute. How come there was no singular papacy in Rome up until the middle of the second century?

Oh, we don't talk about that. And it's brand new from Catholic Answers. Yours is waiting right now. When you call 888 -291 -8000 or visit us online at www .catholic .com. Along with your learning guide, when you purchase that, we'll throw in the accompanying evangelization guide absolutely free.

Which you can fold up in the shape of a hat.

You'll deepen your own understanding and appreciation of the papacy while arming yourself to answer virtually any question you might be asked about it. Call 888 -291 -8000 or visit us online at www .catholic .com.

It's that easy. And you're on your way to a deeper, more accurate understanding of what may be the most important office any mortal man can hold. The Catholic papacy. The papacy learning guide. And your free accompanying evangelization guide from Catholic Answers.

They're brand new. Get a hold of them today by logging on to www .catholic .com or by calling 888 -291 -8000.

You can log on to www .catholic .com any time of the day or night. We have dozens of informative tracks dealing with every aspect of the Catholic faith. They're loaded with scriptural and historical support for what we believe is Catholic.

Don't be a stranger. Come by our website any time you wish. You can also listen to our radio program live each day. That's like 1972, isn't it? Or access previous programs in our archive section. Be sure you bookmark catholic .com and invite others to do the same.

Catholic Answers, the Papacy, and the Claim That Jesus Left His Church to One Man

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It's time to introduce our keynote speaker this evening. That would be...

Who is our keynote speaker? Hey, Spark Gunner, forget something? Do you need the Speaker's Bureau at Catholic Answers? Ah, yes. One of your favorites from the radio could be at your next event. Catholic Answers Live.

Do you think if we asked him to... No, no, no. All right. Nice to have you with us on the program today. Ending the week here with Dave Armstrong, Catholic apologist, convert to the faith in 1991. Why we need more than the Bible is our topic.

When we have an open phone line after we start taking some calls, you're welcome to join us with any question or comment or concern you might have about this very important issue at 888 -318 -7884. Let's start off with John, line one in Toledo, Ohio.

John, you're on with Dave Armstrong.

Welcome. Hi. Hi, Dave. My question is why... I was a Catholic by upbringing, and now I am with a Methodist church. And I wanted to know why it is that we need more than the Bible or the Scripture and our belief that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior as, for example, using the Catholic Church or being a Catholic.

Why would we need more than Bible or Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior? Well, because I think the points I was giving before shows that that's the biblical teaching. So if you have the Bible, you also have tradition and the church because the Bible teaches those things.

Except, Dave, we've already seen that there was nothing in that tradition that wasn't in the Bible and that your use of tradition was circular and that you made a number of errors there and that we believe in the church, just not the church you believe in.

So that really didn't answer the question, did it?

That was the points I gave. In fact, in Methodism, I understand that...

Go back. You know what that sounds like? Read my book. Isn't that what it is? I already made that point, so... Read my book.

There you go. They have what's called the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, which authority rests in Bible tradition, reason, and experience. I think it's either tradition or church, but you may have heard that if you're a Methodist.

Because the Methodists came from the Anglicans historically, and Anglicans have a high view of tradition also. They accept especially the first four councils of the church. It would be the short answer to that.

I want to make sure, John, that we have your question clear. You mentioned something about Catholics believing that we need more than Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Certainly that is not the Catholic position.

I don't know if you misspoke or perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying, but was that something you were...

When one, at least when I read the Bible, what it says to me, for example, in Colossians, when he's trying to dispute gnomism with the Colossian church, he talks about Jesus Christ being sufficient. In many thousands of other places in the Bible, if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, that is sufficient to believe that's the gift of eternal life that we're given.

And that I'm having difficulty finding anything else. In the Bible, granted, I'm somewhat of a novice at it, that says that I need a particular church other than the fact that all I need to do is accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Yeah. Well, the topic isn't salvation. No, we believe we're saved by Jesus. We don't believe you're saved by the church. We believe that Jesus set up the church and that it has authority.

Isn't the church the very minister of redemption, through which grace, sacraments, stuff like that's done?

Hmm, interesting statement. One verse I could give real quick here would be 1 Timothy 3 .15, which I lost in my notes.

1 Timothy 3 .15 is about the church as the pillar and foundation of the truth. Pillar and foundation holds something else up. And that's what it's about there, Dave.

I hope that helps you out. It says the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. That's what I just said. Correct, yeah. Yeah, so that's one quick verse where it mentions the church. And I gave the Jerusalem Council.

That was binding on all Christians at the time.

Yeah, as a part of Scripture, yes it was. Apostles inspired, yes, good.

All right. Irrelevant now, but hey, what can I say? Paul the Apostle went out and he proclaimed the decrees of the council.

So that's church authority. Yep, church does have authority.

Not infallible authority. I liked all the references you made to those, and I'll look at those. But this is a searching question more than a, you know, saying it's one way or the other. Well, go to my website.

There's a lot on there, and I think you'll find something to work through there.

Why don't you give that? Just go to my website. It's there. It's there somewhere.

It must be. I've written so much stuff. Get that website out real quick, Dave.

Okay, it's www .biblicalcatholic .com.

All right, www .biblicalcatholic .com. John, I also strongly encourage you and welcome you to call us. Call us. We'll be glad to proselytize you. I'm going to give you that phone number, because we have a staff of folks there who can take all the time that you need.

We'll give you only one sign of all the responses.

Believe you me. Questions, concerns, objections, anything after another. And that phone number is 619. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these things. So please do that, and do give us off the air sometime. We appreciate hearing from you today.

Let's go to line 3J, Birmingham, Alabama.

Let's listen to Jay, and then we'll wrap up for the day. How are you guys doing?

Pretty good, thanks. Hi, Jay. Great, great. Actually, my question just kind of kept developing as I was holding on. One thing I'd like to say in charity to the person that just called before. I mean, if you believe in sola scriptura, as nice as it is to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, that passage can't be found in the Scripture, to my knowledge.

That's not necessarily the formula to become a Christian. You can't find that in Scripture.

Sounds like this Catholic is saying you must find the exact words for it to be true. That would be odd if you then tried to prove the papacy from the Scriptures, too.

I guess the initial reason for my call is I was recently reading something on infant baptism from the early church fathers. I think it was dated 215 A .D., which was at least 200 years before the Bible was ever canonized.

Oh, the Bible was canonized? Oh, I think we have an improper understanding of the canon there, don't we? There was a debate about infant baptism.

No, there wasn't. Not in 215. It wasn't whether or not we should baptize our infants. It was whether or not we should wait until the eighth day.

Notice, no references given. I just love apocryphal references. Why not sooner? But, of course, we will have a challenge with this. I'm sure Dave Armstrong will say, well, where were you discussing that?

We want to make sure that we're accurate in our statements. Let's listen.

The point I'm trying to make is if you use Scripture alone, you miss out on so much of what the apostles learned from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit.

Oh, really? Is that why when I debated Mitch Pacwa, I asked him, can you tell me a single word that Jesus ever taught that has been officially defined by the Roman Catholic Church? Nope. The apostles?

Nope. So, debates in the early church, who gets to tell him that that particular passage he didn't bother to tell us about is actually a direct representation of what Jesus and the apostles taught. I mean, every time we point to stuff in the early church fathers that's against what Rome taught, what are we told?

We're told, well, that's just their personal opinion. They were a private theologian there. But then when you find something you think supports what you're saying, even though I don't have a reference here, then all of a sudden that's what Jesus and the apostles taught.

I think we've got a double standard here. What do you think?

That they handed on to us, which has lasted over 2 ,000 years, or right at 2 ,000. And when you look at Christianity as a whole, over 30 ,000 different Christian denominations, Christianity is the most disseminated religion.

Now Dave knows there are not 30 ,000 denominations. He's got to know this. So is he going to correct the man?

Of all the religions. And it's because each individual Christian thinks that he can read the Bible for himself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and come to a perfect knowledge.

Is this guy sitting in another office over at Catholic Answers just calling in?

Is that what's going on here? Really, when you look at it, it's a self-refuting doctrine. Just as Patrick Madrid says. To be fair to Protestants, we shouldn't caricature their position as me, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit.

There are people that believe that. Who? They do believe that tradition has some authority. Sola Scriptura is saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority in a way that church and tradition are not binding.

And that's why Martin Luther... But what was that, Dave?

What do you mean they're not binding? You mean binding on the level of Scripture? But what's trying to be said there? That they have no authority? That's where you get a lot of confusion. He's out now, you know.

He stands in a diet of warmth. And he says here at the end, unless you convince me by the Bible in plain reason, he assumes that it's a Bible alone position. And he's saying that councils can be wrong and so forth, and the church can be wrong and not infallible.

You mean he said they contradicted each other, which happens to be a fact.

And that was really the radical break. But even Luther wasn't totally against tradition because he believed in a number of things that Catholics believe. And Lutherans don't like the Immaculate Conception and a high view of real presence.

So I just want to make clear that there's a lot of caricature of Sola Scriptura.

Including the 30 ,000 denomination things? We didn't hear about that.

And the best Protestant writers will actually critique what they call Bible only, an extreme position of it that doesn't care about tradition whatsoever. So thanks for calling.

Yeah, Jay, thanks for that phone call. Appreciate that. Going to move on here. We'll have that open line, 888.

I think we'll stop it right there. You know, I appreciate at least that Dave tried to say something there because obviously the caller was just, you know, that's sort of like the seminar callers you hear on the national talk shows where they're just reading along with something.

But I appreciate that. At least that was somewhat helpful. So let's give kudos where kudos are due.