September 2, 2004

The world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is

The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line.

It is a hot one out there today. I was just on my motorcycle and I am now starting to see the brilliance of Harold Camping.

You know, I mean, I had to stop at this one stoplight and you just sort of sit there, you know, and it's, uh, what is the temperature, let's see here, uh, it says it's only 105 at the moment.

It seems a lot hotter than that, but you sit there and, uh, you, you just wait for that light.

And it was 1100 cc's throb away down there and the heat comes up and your feet are, are, are on fire because they're sitting on the, on the pavement and that light just sits there.

And I started figuring, you know what, 2011 sounds good, 20, 2011 sounds good to me.

Did you hear about that? I was going to, I still need to, um, I still need to blog this, uh, but, um, uh, there's, there's a new date.

I had heard this a couple of weeks ago, but last night I got, got in the car, I was heading down to, uh, down to prayer meeting and I don't do this purposefully.

I've dealt with Harold Camping, Harold Camping is beyond correction. Uh, he's, you know, there's just, there's nothing really left to say about Harold Camping.

If you can believe that guy is absolutely whacked out, uh, interpretations of things, then, um, you know, there's the, you're not really going to, what

I have to say isn't going to make much sense. It's put that way. Um, and, um, so I don't go listening to him.

He's on here, uh, locally and, um, uh, but I don't, I don't listen. I mean, it's, it was bad enough having to listen to him so much and preparing to write the book years ago, but, uh,

I have one of those really cool new, um, things that you can, you can plug in your, like your

MP3 player or your CD player. You plug it into this thing and it broadcasts to your FM radio in your car.

So it's like 88 .1, 88 .3, 88 .5, 88 .7 or something like that. So I was about to, um, to tune it over to 88 .1,

which is where I have mine set. And, uh, lo and behold, uh, there was, uh, there was

Harold Camping and the caller was asking good questions.

And so I thought, all right, well, let's listen for a while. And, um, basically the, the, the caller is asking him about his new date.

And so I got to hear him specifically say, yes, um, well, when we read the

Bible, we see that God is telling us that we are in the tribulation period and we know we are in the second part of the tribulation period from reading the

Bible. And we know from what God is telling us that everything will be wrapped up in 2011, seven years from now.

So I'm hearing him talking about 2011 and the guy's asking him some good questions. Like, um, didn't she say something about 1994?

And, uh, of course we've got the, well, we didn't know everything we know now.

There's been so much light that's been revealed and who knows, maybe more light will be, will be revealed in the future.

And, uh, so, you know, maybe we'll have to make some adjustments. He has made, I mean, we're talking, he has given himself so many outs on this one.

Of course, how old will he be in 2011? Well, he'd be about 95 or something.

Uh, I mean, please. And, uh, so, uh, anyway, uh, you know, he was, he, one of the things he said at one point last night was, um, was, um, uh,

I, I love to learn from the callers and I'm very happy to learn from people, uh, when they speak from the

Bible, but when my critics, uh, criticize me, they don't show me from the

Bible where I'm wrong. So I would like to hear from the Bible and it's like, oh,

Harold, please. Utterly and completely beyond, uh, any type of, uh, of dialogue interaction, you know, uh, the lights are on nobody's home, uh, vacancy signs out, but there's no room left.

I mean, it's just, uh, there's, there's, there's no communication there. Just, just completely. So, uh, anyway, 2011, uh, start making your plans now.

Um, uh, there's just, there's no end. And you know what? There's going to be people doing the same thing that they did in 1994 for 2011.

I mean, I've talked to folks back on long Island, people who sold stuff and, uh, they were, they, they were, uh, uh, what was the, they bought a, they, they rented a plane and they had a big banner made and had this plane flying around the

Jones beach in long Island about 1994. Repent 1994 is at hand and, and, uh, stuff like that.

And, you know, I mean, people who are selling their houses and, and I, I met people, I started going back there, what, 96.

And so it was only, you know, very short period of time after that. But I met people who were just then recovering from their, um, their commitment to, uh, to Harold camping.

And, um, you know, they, they had not yet recovered financially from what they did as a result of that.

And so, you know what? It's, it does not matter that he pulled 1994.

It does not matter that he has demonstrated himself to be, um, uh, completely untrustworthy as a

Bible teacher, uh, completely, uh, incapable of accepting correction, completely clueless as to what hermeneutics means or exegesis or anything else.

Uh, there's going to be people who are going to fall for it again. Um, what 17 years later, uh,

I, I just, uh, there's, there is no end. It seems today, the wackier, goofier stranger, more inane.

Your teaching is the, uh, the more likely you're going to gather yourself a nice big group, that's going to just open their wallets wide and throw it your direction.

Uh, I was saying to a friend of mine, um, yesterday in light of various things going on right now, uh, that, um,

I said, brother, it sounds like, uh, the only ones left are you and I, and I'm starting to worry about you. Uh, there is insanity all around us.

It is just really, really odd. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

And, uh, let's, let's, well, yep. Let's, let's go ahead and do it.

We, uh, nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.

I am usually referred to as the master. There are some who call me Tim. It is time for our favorite, uh, favorite segment on the dividing line today.

Dave Armstrong on Catholic answers. And, uh, boy, I'll tell you if you've been to Dave's blog recently,

Dave's just playing along with the game. You know what I mean? Yes, indeed.

Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

What is the question for today? It is, how can you self -destruct two times on your own blog?

I'd tell you James White's three ring sophistry circus, his critique of my radio talk on solo scriptura.

And, you know, I feel sometimes I feel sorry for old Dave because Dave just no matter what he does, he's just going to prove that what we're saying is right.

Um, you know, uh, he has to go back to, uh, you know, uh, talk about, uh, well, we had this, a huge postal debate, postal debate.

Yes. Postal. Uh, I like, I like postal. In fact, here's postal dot wave. This is what postal dot wave sounds like special delivery.

Yes. He goes postal, postal debate. We didn't have a postal debate. He wrote me some letters years and years ago.

I wrote him some letters back. That becomes a debate, but that is absolute pure desperation. It truly is.

So anyways, um, we've got, uh, we've got, uh, another entry on the blog and all

Dave's doing is just demonstrating that what we've been saying for a long, long time is actually true, but we're going to go back to, uh,

Dave Armstrong's appearance on Catholic answers. And, uh, if I recall, I may skip past some of this, if it sort of stops the middle of the sentence, don't worry about, but we were getting, getting, coming up to a commercial break as I recall.

And it was interesting what commercials you have on, uh, on Catholic answers. Let's see if that's where we were.

All right. We'll tell you what we are. We have two more. I'm just going to mention them here and we'll get into them a bit later on the program.

Good Lord willing. We have full phone lines here. So we are going to start taking some calls for Dave Armstrong in a moment.

Point number nine is that Paul assumes that his passed down tradition is infallible and binding.

We'll ask Dave about that before the show ends. And number 10, sola scriptura is a, as Dave says, a radically circular position.

We'll have him explain that as well. But these are the points we wanted to make on today's program.

Again, as we open up a phone line, you're welcome to join us. Triple eight, three, one, eight, seven, eight, eight, four.

Why we need more than the Bible. That is our topic of discussion here on Catholic answers live with Dave Armstrong.

You are who are on hold. We'll start taking your calls when we return in just a moment. Catholic answers live is brought to you in part by the support of Siena Communications.

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Catholic dot com and invite others to do the same. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It's time to introduce our keynote speaker this evening.

This would be who is our keynote speaker. Hey, forget something.

Do you need the speaker's bureau at camp again? Ah, yes. Favorites from the radio could be at your next event. What answers live?

Do you think you think if we asked him to come out at it? All right. Nice to have you with us on the program today.

Ending the week here with Dave Armstrong, Catholic apologist, convert to the faith in 1991. Why we need more than the

Bible is our topic. When we have an open phone line after we start taking some calls, you're welcome to join us with any question or comment or concern you might have about this very important issue at three eight eight eight three one eight seven eight eight four.

Let's start off with John. Line one in Toledo, Ohio. John, you're on with Dave Armstrong. Welcome.

Hi, my question is why I was a

Catholic by upbringing and now I am with a Methodist church. And I wanted to know why it is that we need more than the

Bible or the Scripture and our belief that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. And, for example, using the

Catholic Church or being a Catholic. Why would we need more than Bible or Jesus Christ is our

Lord and Savior? Well, because I think the points

I was given before it shows that that's the biblical teaching. So if you have the

Bible, you also have tradition and the church because the Bible teaches those things. Except, Dave, we've already seen that there was nothing in that tradition that wasn't in the

Bible and that your use of tradition was circular and that you made a number of errors there and that we believe in the church, just not the church you believe in.

So that really didn't answer the question. That was the points I gave. In fact, in Methodism, I understand that.

Go back, you know, you know, that sounds like. Read my book.

Isn't that what it is? Isn't that what I already made that point? So read my book.

They have what's called the Wesleyan quadrilateral with authority rests in Bible tradition, reason and experience.

I think it's tradition or it's either tradition or church. But you may have heard that if you're Methodist. Because the

Methodists came from the Anglicans historically, and Anglicans have a high view of tradition.

Also, they accept especially the first four councils of the church. So that would be the short answer to that.

I want to make sure, John, that we have your question clear. You mentioned something about, you know, Catholics believing that we need more than Jesus Christ as our

Lord and Savior. Certainly that is not the Catholic position. And I don't know if you misspoke or we perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.

But was that was that something you were. When when one at least when

I read the Bible, it's what it says to me or, for example, in Colossians, when he's trying to dispute gnomism with the

Colossian church, that's not about Jesus Christ, not gnomism in many places in the

Bible. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, that is sufficient to that's the gift of eternal life that we're given.

And that I'm having difficulty finding anything else in the

Bible. And granted, I'm somewhat of a novice at it that says that I need a particular church other than the fact that all

I need to do is accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Yeah, well, the topic isn't salvation.

No, we believe we're saved by Jesus. We don't believe you're saved by the church. We believe that Jesus set up the church and that it has authority.

Now, isn't isn't the church the very minister of redemption through which grace, sacraments, stuff like that?

That's an interesting statement. One verse I could give real quick here would be first Timothy 315, which

I lost in my notes. First Timothy 315 is about the church as the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Pillar and foundation holds something else up. And that's what it's about there,

Dave. I hope that helps you out. It says the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. That's what I just said. That's how it goes.

Correct, yeah. Yeah, so that's one quick verse where it mentions the church.

And I gave the Jerusalem Council. That was binding on all Christians at the time. Yeah, as a part of scripture.

Yes, it was. Apostles inspired. Yes, good. All right, irrelevant now. But hey, what can I say? Paul the Apostle went out and he proclaimed the decrees of the council.

So that's church authority. And yep, church does have authority. I like all the references you made to those.

And I'll look at those. But this is a searching question more than a, yeah, you know, saying it's one way or the other.

Well, go to my website. There's a lot on there. And I think you'll find something to work through there. Why don't you give that?

Just go to my website. It's there. It's there somewhere. It must be. I've written so much stuff.

Get that website out real quick, Dave. Okay, it's the three W's, biblicalcatholic .com.

All right, www .biblicalcatholic .com. John, I also strongly encourage you and welcome you to call us.

We'll be glad to proselytize you. And I'm going to give you that phone number, because we have a staff of folks there who can take all the time that you need.

And you're welcome to fire one question, concern, objection, anything after another.

And that phone number is 619 with these things. So please do that. And do give us off the air sometime.

We appreciate hearing from you today. Let's go to line 3J, Birmingham, Alabama. Let's listen to Jay, then we'll wrap up for the day.

How are you guys doing? Pretty good, thanks. Hi, Jay. Great, great. Actually, my question just kind of kept developing as I was holding on.

One thing I'd like to say in charity to the person that just called before, I mean, if you believe in Sola Scriptura, as nice as it is to accept

Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, that passage can't be found in Scripture, to my knowledge.

That's not necessarily the formula to become a Christian. You can't find that in Scripture. Hmm, sounds like this

Catholic is saying you must find the exact words for it to be true. That would be odd if you then tried to prove the papacy from the

Scriptures too, huh? I guess the initial reason for my call is

I was recently reading something on infant baptism from the early church fathers. I think it was dated 215

AD, which was at least 200 years before the Bible was ever canonized.

Oh, the Bible was canonized? Oh, I think we have an improper understanding of the canon there, don't we?

There was a debate about infant baptism. Ah, no, there wasn't. It wasn't whether or not we should baptize our infants.

It was whether or not we should wait to the eighth day. Notice, no references given.

I just love apocryphal references. Why not sooner? And so, I guess...

But of course, we will have a challenge with this. I'm sure Dave Armstrong will say, well, where were you discussing that? We want to make sure that we're accurate in our statements.

Let's listen. The point I'm trying to make is if you use scripture alone, you miss out on so much of what the apostles learned from Christ and learned from the

Holy Spirit. Oh, really? Is that why when I debated Mitch Pacwa, I asked him, can you tell me a single word that Jesus ever taught that has been officially defined by the

Roman Catholic Church? Nope. The apostles? Nope. So, debates in the early church.

Who gets to tell him that that particular passage he didn't bother to tell us about is actually a direct representation of what

Jesus and the apostles taught? I mean, every time we point to stuff in the early church fathers that's against what

Rome taught, what are we told? We're told, well, that's just their personal opinion. They were a private theologian there.

But then when you find something you think supports what you're saying, even though I don't have a reference here, then all of a sudden, that's what Jesus and the apostles taught.

I think we've got a double standard here. What do you think? That they handed on to us, which has lasted over 2 ,000 years, or right at 2 ,000.

And when you look at Christianity as a whole, over 30 ,000 different Christian denominations, Christianity is the most disseminated religion.

Now, Dave knows there are not 30 ,000 denominations. He's got to know this.

So is he going to correct the man? Of all the religions. And it's because each individual

Christian thinks that he can read the Bible for himself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and come to a perfect knowledge.

Is this guy sitting in another office over at Catholic Answers just calling in? Is that what's going on here? Really, when you look at it, it's a self -refuting doctrine.

Just as Patrick Madrid says. To be fair to Protestants, we shouldn't caricature their position as, like, me, the

Bible, and the Holy Spirit. There are some people that believe that. Who? They do believe that tradition has some authority.

Sola Scriptura is saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority in a way that church and tradition are not binding.

And that's why Martin Luther, the... But what was that, Dave? What do you mean they're not binding?

You mean binding on the level of Scripture? But what's trying to be said there? Do they have no authority?

That's where you get a lot of confusion. He's out now, you know. He stands at the Diet of Worms, and he says here

I stand, unless you convince me by the Bible in plain reason. He assumes that it's a

Bible alone position, and he's saying that councils can be wrong and so forth, and the church can be wrong and not infallible.

You mean he said they contradicted each other, which happens to be a fact. And that was really the radical break.

But even Luther wasn't totally against tradition because he believed in a number of things that Catholics believe.

And Lutherans don't like the Immaculate Conception and a high view of real presence. So I just want to make clear that there's a lot of caricature of Sola Scriptura.

Including the 30 ,000 denomination things? We didn't hear about that. And the best

Protestant writers will actually critique what they call Bible only, an extreme position of it that doesn't care about tradition whatsoever.

Thanks for calling. Yeah, Jay, thanks for that phone call. Appreciate that. I'm going to move on here. We'll have that open line.

Triple eight. I think we'll stop it right there. I appreciate at least that Dave tried to say something there because obviously the caller was just, you know, that's sort of like the seminar callers you hear on the national talk shows where they're just reading, you know, along with something.

But I appreciate that. At least that was somewhat helpful. So let's give kudos where kudos are.