May 1, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa & Dr. Kirk MacGregor on “Calvinism vs. Molinism: A Discussion Between Two Brothers in Christ Who Disagree Over How Scripture Explains God’s Sovereignty & Man’s Freedom”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of.

Humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this first day

of May 2018 and I'm delighted to have not only a first -time

guest but also returning guests on the program today.

We're going to have a fascinating discussion I'm sure on a subject that we have never

addressed in all the years that we've been broadcasting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio going all the way back to

2005 and part of that is because I've just become familiar with

the theme that we are going to be discussing today in recent months perhaps

actually maybe a little bit longer ago than that maybe two years ago I began to hear

about Molinism.

I had no idea that this theological perspective existed and we are going to

have today as our theme Calvinism versus Molinism a discussion

between two brothers in Christ who disagree over how scripture explains God's sovereignty

and man's freedom.

We have first of all a very first -time guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Kirk

McGregor.

He is a Molinist and he is the assistant professor of philosophy and religion at McPherson

College.

He's also the author of Luis de Molina the Life and Theology of the Founder of Middle

Knowledge and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio Dr. Kirk

McGregor.

Great and we have representing Calvinism on the program today.

My friend Dr. Tony Costa who's been a guest on this program a number of times and has also been a

participant in Iron Sharpens Iron Radio events including a debate we orchestrated

between Dr. Tony Costa and the Roman Catholic apologist Robert St. Genes.

We've also had Dr. Tony Costa as our featured speaker at one of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

pastors luncheons not long ago but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

Tony Costa and I do

as well and then another dear friend of mine who is returning today he is going.

To be co -hosting this program with me.

His name is Anthony Eugenio and he is co -founder of New York Apologetics.

He's also a member of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island located in Medford, New York

where my very dear friend Pastor Richard Jensen serves as the under shepherd over that

flock.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Anthony.

Eugenio.

Thanks Chris.

I'm looking forward to this co -hosting this new co -hosting gig I have.

I hope I don't blow it.

Well you know what I'd like for each of our participants to do before we go into their opening presentations.

They're going to each give a 10 -minute opening presentation to define what

they believe in regard to God's sovereignty and man's freedom.

And then they will each have 10 minutes to rebut those opening statements.

And then we are going to go to listener questions and also questions that I may

have and that Anthony Eugenio may have and keep in mind.

Anthony since I cannot see you I cannot see you frowning or waving your arms

violently.

So if you want to ask a question and you see a lull or an opening just move right

in there and ask a question.

Don't wait for me to to ask you to ask a question.

And so first of all Dr. Kirk McGregor tell us something about McPherson College

briefly and something about your role.

There

as

assistant

professor

of

philosophy

and

religion.

College

is here

and

the website for.

Our listeners interested in that is mcpherson .edu.

That's m -c -p -h -e -r -s -o -n dot e -d -u.

Tell us a little bit about your book that you've written.

If I'm not mistaken I think it may be the only modern biography

on Molina.

I may be wrong about that but tell us about Luis de Molina the life and.

Theology

of

the

founder

of Middle

Knowledge.

Well

I

know

that you

would be

very

you would

feel

very.

Much at home in Carlisle Pennsylvania because there are Church of the Brethren and Brethren in Christ

congregations all over the place that I think that is the dominant

denomination around here next to the United Methodists with a close runner -up the Church of God

Findlay Ohio denomination.

They far outnumber the Calvinists around here.

But Dr. Tony Costa now if you could tell us something about your role as professor of.

Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Yeah sure.

A Reformed Baptist Seminary you mean?

I'm sorry?

A Reformed Baptist Seminary you said a Reformed Baptist Church.

Okay probably right

yeah.

Local theology

religions with a specialization in Islam in particular

writers.

And

I know that the website is

tbs .edu.

That's tbs correct for torontobaptistseminary .edu.

Dot edu and I would strongly recommend my dear friend

Dr. Tony Costa for a guest speaker at your church.

He has truly delighted and edified the

audiences or the congregations wherever I have arranged him to speak

including at my my pastor's luncheon.

In fact you'll be I think pleased to know Tony that

a local Church of Christ minister Chris Croats who was at the pastor's

luncheon where you were the speaker the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon.

He was so profoundly blessed and edified by your presentation that he

organized his own conference with Brad Harub that

involved some similar themes that you spoke on but would delve more heavily into the creation versus

evolution debate.

But you every single person that I know who attended

that that luncheon was just profoundly blessed and I look forward to you returning

to this area.

And you have also written a book that is in print I believe it is.

Published by

Peter

Lang publishing.

Could

you

tell us

about

that?

Great.

And if

anybody

wants to

learn.

More about that book you can go to peterlang .com peterlang .com and just to let you

know ahead of time that Peter Lang Publishing is not exclusively a Christian publisher

it's an academic publisher that really runs a very broad spectrum and happens to

include some conservative Christian books but that is probably a

minority of what they publish.

It's a it's a very highly academic based publishing house.

In fact that's where I first discovered Dr. Joel Beeky's doctoral dissertation on assurance

before it became republished in a more popular form.

But we are going to now have our representatives today our participants

give a 10 -minute explanation of their theological position and we are going to start

by our Molinist guest today Dr. Kirk McGregor if you could.

Well

thank

you

Kirk

McGregor and we are going to go to a very brief station break.

Before Dr. Tony Costa gives his opening statements.

If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own which we will be taking during the second hour

our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z

-e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and

private matter so don't go away we'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa's opening

statements explaining Calvinism.

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Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in.

We are having a discussion today between a calvinist and a mulanist.

Representing calvinism today is dr tony costa professor of apologetics of islam

of apologetics and in islam at toronto baptist seminary and representing mulanism is

dr kirk mcgregor assistant professor of philosophy and religion at mcpherson college and author of luis

de molina the life and theology of the founder of middle knowledge.

And now we are reaching or have reached the point when dr.

Tony

costa is

going

to give his 10

-minute

opening

presentation.

Thank you

so

much.

Albinism or

does

not

deny

that

humans

are

committed

and

so

we

have

to

understand

from

even

our

perceived.

The

one

who

utterly incapable of creating

enough

himself for the

mind that is set on the flesh

indeed

cannot.

And so a number of things we have to take away from this

mind the sinful mind.

It does not submit to god's law not because it will not but

cannot please god.

So unregenerate people cannot please god.

They cannot submit to the law of god they cannot even understand the things of god.

As first corinthians 2 14 points out the natural person does not accept the thing and

he is not able to understand

them because ninthians 118

tells us

that

the way

to choose into

life

that

is.

Thank

you

very

much

uh

tony.

And

now i

am going

to

allow each

of

our

participants.

We are going

to.

Take our 10 -minute rebuttal sections that's 10 minutes each after the

midway break because time won't permit us to do it during this first hour since we have to go to

a break at 4 54 pm eastern time.

So uh dr kirk mcgregor if you could ask a question of dr costa

and he will answer and then.

We'll

have dr costa

ask

you a

question.

So dr

mcgregor.

And

now

uh

dr

costa you can

ask

dr.

Mcgregor a question.

Yes.

Doctors a

counter -referent

the council of.

Don't you think it's quite.

Uh don't.

You

think

it's

quite

interesting

that molina

as a

generation

and

social

justice.

Well

uh

now

uh.

Anthony eugenio who is my co -host today uh he is co -founder of new york apologetics.

He is going to ask a question of both of our participants and if you could just very briefly

uh describe new.

York apologetics.

Before you ask ask your questions.

Uh.

Thanks chris.

New york apologetics is a training organization uh dedicated to uh defending the christian

claims.

Uh we go to high schools colleges churches.

Uh train them up in the apologetic arguments uh give

them ways to or even people who are in the cults like

jehovah's witnesses and mormons.

Uh we try to give them the information they need uh to make a defense for

this.

And what's the uh.

What's the website for new york apologetics.

Www .newyorkapologetics .com.

Great.

And now your question with that.

Yes here we go.

Um my question is actually for both of them.

I'd like both of them to to respond to this.

Um did god decree a world in which adam would sin.

Certainly.

Or did god decree a world in which adam would.

He knew adam but adam could do.

Other one.

And then in the calvinist.

So dr mcgregor you would answer.

And

tony theology

on superlative

syrianism or

infallibility syrianism.

I think

that god decreed a

world

decreed

anything

because he so

i don't

think it was a case of god creating.

Great.

Um well

we have to go

to our midway break now and when we return from a midway break.

We will have both uh dr mcpherson i'm sorry dr mcgregor.

Dr mcgregor and dr costa give their 10 -minute rebuttals

and you can also during this break.

By the way please be patient with us because this is an elongated station break.

Grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida who airs this program every day

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and now.

We are back to our special program today that we are addressing for the very first

time ever on iron sharpens iron radio molinism.

We have had at least one maybe a couple of guests that were molinists in their

personal understanding of the sovereignty of god and man's freedom.

But that wasn't the topic that we addressed.

This is the first time we have ever addressed this as a topic for the entirety of the program.

And this is a discussion between two brothers in christ who disagree over how scripture explains god's

sovereignty and man's freedom.

We have on the program today for the very first time dr kirk mcgregor who is a molinist.

He's also assistant professor of philosophy and religion at mcpherson college and author of luis de

molina the life and theology of the founder of middle knowledge.

And we also have uh representing calvinism dr tomy costa

who is a professor of apologetics in islam at toronto baptist seminary.

And joining me today as a co -host is anthony eugenio co -founder of new york

apologetics.

And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail

.com.

C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the usa only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own pastor or congregation

over this issue.

Or there's some reason that really compels you to remain anonymous.

Then we will allow you to remain anonymous.

But if it's just a general question that doesn't affect your life personally in any dramatic way then please give us your first

name city and state and country of residence.

Now we are going to have our 10 -minute rebuttal uh sections

during the the program today.

And we are going to start with the molinist and uh if you could

uh begin dr kirk mcgregor with your 10 minutes of rebuttal.

All

right.

Dr

tony

costa

it's

your

time

for

10 minutes of rebuttal.

Thank you so much and thank.

You really enjoyed our.

I could not help

feel

that uh i think

we have to.

That's the the

uh knows the end from the beginning that god dr william

craig who

is a

dear

friend

of mine

whom i know

personally

factors of

creaturely freedom

that happens

that there are truths about how people would really choose under differences

to not look like the god of abraham isaac

and jacob.

I think this is

thinking an argumentation.

I also did

mention aristotle's

quality and

actuality

doctor to

define what

we

think.

There's any need to go into philosophical distinctions about being

unforgivable and and tying that

into god's

middle

knowledge.

I

think the

context is that

whether or

not

that's

the i don't think

god

the author

of evil uh

first john

1 5 says that god is light and in him there is no darker

that that

man i and

i believe

in

compatible with the actions of men including evil

can very

mean impugn god's

character because

they were

simply acting

in

accordance

with

their

said

about

i know

dr

mcgregor

points on 1836

one who

that i'm

not

denying

i

just

cannot

help a thing with

the

jesuits

not to go back to the

basics.

Well we have to

go to our

final break.

It's going to be very brief and if anybody would like to join us with questions for our two guests

both kirk mcgregor the molinist and dr tony costa the calvinist our email

address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

If you've just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next 25 minutes to come

we have been discussing and will continue to discuss calvinism versus molinism a

discussion between two brothers in christ who disagree over how scripture explains god's sovereignty and man's freedom.

And our participants have been and will continue to be the molinist

dr kirk mcgregor assistant professor of philosophy and religion at mcpherson college and dr tony

costa the calvinist professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary.

On air with me as my co -host today is anthony eugenio founder co -founder of new york

apologetics.

And if you'd like to join us on the air speak now or forever hold your peace because we

are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

What i'm going to do is i'm going to ask my own two questions one for each of our guests

and actually each of our guests can respond to that can respond to the

other guests answer as well.

And then we'll have anthony eugenio and i taking

turns reading questions that we received either before or during the show.

My questions from the audience that came in have all been submitted

during the live broadcast.

And i have their names and locations.

I don't know if anthony has the names and locations but i know that he has a list of questions that came up

while promoting this program.

But my questions are.

And i'll start with uh i will start with uh

uh dr kirk mcgregor uh my question is do you believe

that evil things uh horrible things wicked

things have been at any time ordained by god

himself.

And not only would i include the most dramatic example of that the execution of

jesus christ the only perfect and sinless human that ever walked the face of the

earth.

But also uh we have an example i think that is quite startling.

And second samuel chapter 12 where nathan the prophet

is exposing david for being guilty of adultery and murder

and through the through the prophet nathan the lord is

speaking and he says to david this is what the lord says out of

your own household.

I am going to bring calamity on you before your very eyes.

I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you and he

will sleep with your wives in broad daylight.

You did it in secret.

But i will do this thing in broad daylight before all israel here you have god

saying that he is going to do these things and these are horrible and wicked things including

adultery.

So if you.

Could

answer

my

questions

about

god's

decreeing

evil

acts.

Now

just

one

follow

-up

question

real.

Quick in regard to something like the crucifixion of christ which

although he willingly and voluntarily laid his life down and had complete

sovereignty and power over the whole circumstances those around him certainly didn't know that and they in

essence murdered him.

That was an event that had to happen it it was a a

necessity in order for the sins of his people to be saved.

Was god just looking through the corridors of time and knowing

that jews would cry out for his death and roman soldiers would nail him to a cross or was this something

that was specifically.

Decreed

before

the

foundation

of

the

world.

And

tony

if you

could

respond

to

that

before i

ask.

You a

question yeah i i

would

not

see

that i

cannot help but

think of actually like us

fully comprehend what

that means.

You need to be very cautious here

gentiles

and

bring

about.

His purposes.

Okay now my question for you dr costa is uh actually in regard to a scriptural

uh text that dr kirk mcgregor cited earlier and it's an

interesting passage because on its surface it

appears to contradict both calvinists and arminians.

In certain areas it appears to clearly contradict the arminian understanding

of and i'm not saying that dr mcgregor is an arminian necessarily but i'm just saying that the arminian

concept of the universal parity of god's love for humanity it's

and his desire that each and every human of who is ever born and or will ever be born that they

enter into eternal life with christ.

It seems to contradict that.

But it also seems to contradict the calvinist understanding of total depravity

and his inability man's inability to please god by offering to him

a faith that saves him before he's regenerate.

And this is the passage and i'm going to start earlier in the text than dr mcgregor

than where dr mcgregor began in first thessalonians 2 beginning at verse 13.

For this reason we also constantly thank god that when you receive the word of god which you heard from us

you accepted it not as the word of men but for what it really is the word of god

which also performs its work in you who believe for you brethren became imitators of the churches of god

in christ jesus that are in judea for you also endured the same sufferings

at the hands of your own countrymen even as they did from the jews who both

killed the lord jesus and the prophets.

And out they are not pleasing to god but hostile to all men

hindering us from speaking to the gentiles so that they may be saved with the result that they will always fill

up the measure of wrath of their sins.

Now this is an english translation.

Obviously does the greek require that in

the text hindering us from speaking to the gentiles so that they may be saved.

Does that greek necessitate that without these

christians sharing the gospel with the gentiles these specific christians sharing the gospel with these

gentiles that they will be lost that it's depending upon the

acts and efforts and words of men to usher these gentiles into

eternal life.

Does the greek require that that understanding of it.

Well that'd be specifically verse 16.

First the solonians 2.

Yeah they are not pleasing to god but hostile to all men hindering us from speaking to.

The gentiles so that they may be saved.

Uh again i

i see this as

and so

the way i

would see that.

Yes what i meant is does the greek indicate that without

the efforts of men these people are certainly doomed.

And the other flip side of the coin is could the preaching of the gospel

to a reprobate person bring them to eternal life.

The greek.

The greek might let.

I mean i'm sorry the english might lend one to believe that one may be

saved without being regenerate.

If you follow what i'm saying maybe

one may come to faith without being regenerate.

Is what i meant.

I meant the.

Phrase.

No no.

Can they come to faith without being regenerate.

Absolutely not right.

But the greek is.

The greek they're so ambiguous that it it allows for a more calvinistic understanding because the.

In the english reading of it it seems like an arminian proof text.

Okay because

that's why i.

Said earlier it both seems to contradict calvinists understanding of some point but also arminians

because arminians believe that god wants every single person to be saved.

So right there seems to be a a

conflict with both views but anyway um yeah.

Dr mcgregor.

Dr mcgregor can you respond to.

That as well.

Yes uh.

16 that well that was the last verse that i read i started at 13.

And i thought that was the verse that you brought up earlier.

Perhaps i was wrong but it's still.

It still plays within the construct

of my

my

question.

Okay

that's

fine and

now we're.

Going to take some uh listener questions as many as we can take and i already know that we need a part two.

Uh i hope that you all can return for part two and we could discuss what date that will be after the show is over.

But uh let me start with mark in a way to hello.

Uh can i get one in there real quick.

Okay uh we do have a long line of people who have written in from my audience but.

Go ahead all right.

Listen.

Um before um.

Professor mcgregor said that god decrees something it is certain but not necessary.

So my question would be with regards to the possible that the crucifixion

wouldn't happen wouldn't god's decree.

Every.

The decree of god would be certain and necessary by the very fact that he decreed it

because otherwise men could overturn god's decree and god's decree be worthless.

She would be.

Is was it necessary for jesus to go to the cross based on god's decree.

Both.

He is

actually

because.

Well

one

thing

that

i

have

to

ask that

may.

Uh make it more clear as to how you to disagree.

Uh is that does god.

And i'll ask specifically dr mcgregor does god ordain anything

that he does not know through his omniscience his creatures will already do

anyway.

Does god decree anything without

because of his omniscience knowing that this is something they will do anyway.

It almost seems like the way now that could be just because of my stupidity and that won't be the first time that's the

result of a confusion on my part.

But it almost seems as if in order to protect the righteousness of god

you are saying something that seems really close to an arminian understanding

of the the sovereignty and providence of god and so on.

And his decrees that you it seems.

You are saying that god doesn't ordain something to happen unless he knows

because of his omniscience.

And i know that you don't like the corridors of time analogy.

But you seem to be saying that he doesn't decree anything unless he knows that these

wicked humans will do these things anyway.

As far as.

As far as evil acts

i'll bet you you're.

You're probably speaking of one.

You're probably speaking of wonderful things that you view as blessings.

I'm specifically speaking about evil acts.

Like the murder of jesus.

Wow i

always thought

that the

anabaptists

were uh historically.

Arminians uh i didn't know that they existed before jacob arminians but i mean i always said

right but what i meant was just like some might say that luther had calvinistic views even though he

was a reformer before luther.

Uh before he before calvin was.

But anyway we were running out of time and my brains are leaking out of my ears right now.

But i think we definitely need a part two if you guys are all agreeable because we don't have any time to answer any of

our listener questions now so we will discuss that after we go off the air.

And i want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

First of all we have uh dr kirk mcgregor.

Uh the uh website for mcpherson college is mcpherson .edu and that's m

-c -p -h -e -r -s -o -n .edu and you can find out more information about dr mcgregor on the

faculty link on that page.

And dr tony costas uh seminary where he is on the faculty that is toronto

baptist seminary is tbs .edu tbs .edu.

And uh do either of you have any additional contact information to share with our listeners.

Okay repeat that

please.

Yeah your voice disappeared.

Your voice disappeared.

Repeat that again please.

Okay and dr costa any additional information.

Yeah they can

contact me

and anthony uvinio.

Uh new york apologetics please give us the website uh

www .newyorkapologetics .com and you.

Could reach me at anthony a -n -t -h -o -n -y at newyorkapologetics .com.

Okay uh keep your ears.

Open for uh part two of this discussion.

I want to thank everybody who participated in today's show and those of you who have written in questions but we didn't have time

to ask or have them answered.

But we will uh god willing when we have a part two of this broadcast.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a

sinner.