May 1, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa & Dr. Kirk MacGregor on “Calvinism vs. Molinism: A Discussion Between Two Brothers in Christ Who Disagree Over How Scripture Explains God’s Sovereignty & Man’s Freedom”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on Calvinism vs. Molinism

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Chris Arnson. Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of.

Humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this first day of May 2018 and I'm delighted to have not only a first-time guest but also returning guests on the program today.

We're going to have a fascinating discussion I'm sure on a subject that we have never addressed in all the years that we've been broadcasting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio going all the way back to 2005 and part of that is because I've just become familiar with the theme that we are going to be discussing today in recent months perhaps actually maybe a little bit longer ago than that maybe two years ago I began to hear about Molinism.

I had no idea that this theological perspective existed and we are going to have today as our theme Calvinism versus Molinism a discussion between two brothers in Christ who disagree over how scripture explains God's sovereignty and man's freedom.

We have first of all a very first-time guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Kirk McGregor. He is a Molinist and he is the assistant professor of philosophy and religion at McPherson College. He's also the author of Luis de Molina the Life and Theology of the Founder of Middle Knowledge and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio Dr. Kirk McGregor. Great and we have representing Calvinism on the program today.

My friend Dr. Tony Costa who's been a guest on this program a number of times and has also been a participant in Iron Sharpens Iron Radio events including a debate we orchestrated between Dr. Tony Costa and the Roman Catholic apologist Robert St. Genes.

We've also had Dr. Tony Costa as our featured speaker at one of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors luncheons not long ago but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

Tony Costa and I do as well and then another dear friend of mine who is returning today he is going.

To be co-hosting this program with me. His name is Anthony Eugenio and he is co-founder of New York Apologetics. He's also a member of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island located in Medford, New York where my very dear friend Pastor Richard Jensen serves as the under shepherd over that flock.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Anthony.

Eugenio. Thanks Chris. I'm looking forward to this co-hosting this new co-hosting gig I have.

I hope I don't blow it. Well you know what I'd like for each of our participants to do before we go into their opening presentations. They're going to each give a 10-minute opening presentation to define what they believe in regard to God's sovereignty and man's freedom.

And then they will each have 10 minutes to rebut those opening statements. And then we are going to go to listener questions and also questions that I may have and that Anthony Eugenio may have and keep in mind.

Anthony since I cannot see you I cannot see you frowning or waving your arms violently. So if you want to ask a question and you see a lull or an opening just move right in there and ask a question. Don't wait for me to to ask you to ask a question.

And so first of all Dr. Kirk McGregor tell us something about McPherson College briefly and something about your role.

There as assistant professor of philosophy and religion. College is here and the website for.

Our listeners interested in that is mcpherson .edu. That's m-c-p-h-e-r-s-o-n dot e-d-u. Tell us a little bit about your book that you've written. If I'm not mistaken I think it may be the only modern biography on Molina.

I may be wrong about that but tell us about Luis de Molina the life and.

Theology of the founder of Middle Knowledge. Well I know that you would be very you would feel very.

Much at home in Carlisle Pennsylvania because there are Church of the Brethren and Brethren in Christ congregations all over the place that I think that is the dominant denomination around here next to the United Methodists with a close runner-up the Church of God Findlay Ohio denomination.

They far outnumber the Calvinists around here. But Dr. Tony Costa now if you could tell us something about your role as professor of.

Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. Yeah sure. A Reformed Baptist Seminary you mean?

I'm sorry? A Reformed Baptist Seminary you said a Reformed Baptist Church.

Okay probably right yeah. Local theology religions with a specialization in Islam in particular writers. And I know that the website is tbs .edu. That's tbs correct for torontobaptistseminary .edu.

Dot edu and I would strongly recommend my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa for a guest speaker at your church. He has truly delighted and edified the audiences or the congregations wherever I have arranged him to speak including at my my pastor's luncheon.

In fact you'll be I think pleased to know Tony that a local Church of Christ minister Chris Croats who was at the pastor's luncheon where you were the speaker the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon.

He was so profoundly blessed and edified by your presentation that he organized his own conference with Brad Harub that involved some similar themes that you spoke on but would delve more heavily into the creation versus evolution debate.

But you every single person that I know who attended that that luncheon was just profoundly blessed and I look forward to you returning to this area. And you have also written a book that is in print I believe it is.

Published by Peter Lang publishing. Could you tell us about that? Great. And if anybody wants to learn.

More about that book you can go to peterlang .com peterlang .com and just to let you know ahead of time that Peter Lang Publishing is not exclusively a Christian publisher it's an academic publisher that really runs a very broad spectrum and happens to include some conservative Christian books but that is probably a minority of what they publish.

It's a it's a very highly academic based publishing house. In fact that's where I first discovered Dr. Joel Beeky's doctoral dissertation on assurance before it became republished in a more popular form.

But we are going to now have our representatives today our participants give a 10-minute explanation of their theological position and we are going to start by our Molinist guest today Dr. Kirk McGregor if you could.

Well thank you Kirk McGregor and we are going to go to a very brief station break.

Before Dr. Tony Costa gives his opening statements. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own which we will be taking during the second hour our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter so don't go away we'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa's opening statements explaining Calvinism.

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Forward slash iron sharpens today. Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

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Study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in. We are having a discussion today between a calvinist and a mulanist. Representing calvinism today is dr tony costa professor of apologetics of islam of apologetics and in islam at toronto baptist seminary and representing mulanism is dr kirk mcgregor assistant professor of philosophy and religion at mcpherson college and author of luis de molina the life and theology of the founder of middle knowledge.

And now we are reaching or have reached the point when dr.

Tony costa is going to give his 10-minute opening presentation. Thank you so much. Albinism or does not deny that humans are committed and so we have to understand from even our perceived. The one who utterly incapable of creating enough himself for the mind that is set on the flesh indeed cannot.

And so a number of things we have to take away from this mind the sinful mind. It does not submit to god's law not because it will not but cannot please god. So unregenerate people cannot please god. They cannot submit to the law of god they cannot even understand the things of god.

As first corinthians 2 14 points out the natural person does not accept the thing and he is not able to understand them because ninthians 118 tells us that the way to choose into life that is. Thank you very much uh tony.

And now i am going to allow each of our participants. We are going to.

Take our 10-minute rebuttal sections that's 10 minutes each after the midway break because time won't permit us to do it during this first hour since we have to go to a break at 4 54 pm eastern time.

So uh dr kirk mcgregor if you could ask a question of dr costa and he will answer and then.

We'll have dr costa ask you a question. So dr mcgregor. And now uh dr costa you can ask dr.

Mcgregor a question. Yes. Doctors a counter-referent the council of. Don't you think it's quite. Uh don't.

You think it's quite interesting that molina as a generation and social justice. Well uh now uh.

Anthony eugenio who is my co-host today uh he is co-founder of new york apologetics. He is going to ask a question of both of our participants and if you could just very briefly uh describe new.

York apologetics. Before you ask ask your questions. Uh. Thanks chris. New york apologetics is a training organization uh dedicated to uh defending the christian claims. Uh we go to high schools colleges churches.

Uh train them up in the apologetic arguments uh give them ways to or even people who are in the cults like jehovah's witnesses and mormons. Uh we try to give them the information they need uh to make a defense for this.

And what's the uh. What's the website for new york apologetics. Www .newyorkapologetics .com. Great. And now your question with that. Yes here we go. Um my question is actually for both of them. I'd like both of them to to respond to this.

Um did god decree a world in which adam would sin. Certainly. Or did god decree a world in which adam would. He knew adam but adam could do. Other one. And then in the calvinist. So dr mcgregor you would answer.

And tony theology on superlative syrianism or infallibility syrianism. I think that god decreed a world decreed anything because he so i don't think it was a case of god creating. Great. Um well we have to go to our midway break now and when we return from a midway break.

We will have both uh dr mcpherson i'm sorry dr mcgregor. Dr mcgregor and dr costa give their 10-minute rebuttals and you can also during this break. By the way please be patient with us because this is an elongated station break.

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And also take this time to write in questions for our guests both dr kirk mcgregor and dr tony costa and that email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa.

And please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter that's chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away god willing we will be right back with our discussion on calvinism versus mulanism.

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You don't have to believe exactly or identically as i do. You just need to be promoting something that is compatible with what we believe here and now. We are back to our special program today that we are addressing for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron radio molinism.

We have had at least one maybe a couple of guests that were molinists in their personal understanding of the sovereignty of god and man's freedom. But that wasn't the topic that we addressed. This is the first time we have ever addressed this as a topic for the entirety of the program.

And this is a discussion between two brothers in christ who disagree over how scripture explains god's sovereignty and man's freedom. We have on the program today for the very first time dr kirk mcgregor who is a molinist.

He's also assistant professor of philosophy and religion at mcpherson college and author of luis de molina the life and theology of the founder of middle knowledge. And we also have uh representing calvinism dr tomy costa who is a professor of apologetics in islam at toronto baptist seminary.

And joining me today as a co-host is anthony eugenio co-founder of new york apologetics. And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the usa only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own pastor or congregation over this issue.

Or there's some reason that really compels you to remain anonymous. Then we will allow you to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question that doesn't affect your life personally in any dramatic way then please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

Now we are going to have our 10-minute rebuttal uh sections during the the program today. And we are going to start with the molinist and uh if you could uh begin dr kirk mcgregor with your 10 minutes of rebuttal.

All right. Dr tony costa it's your time for 10 minutes of rebuttal. Thank you so much and thank.

You really enjoyed our. I could not help feel that uh i think we have to. That's the the uh knows the end from the beginning that god dr william craig who is a dear friend of mine whom i know personally factors of creaturely freedom that happens that there are truths about how people would really choose under differences to not look like the god of abraham isaac and jacob.

I think this is thinking an argumentation. I also did mention aristotle's quality and actuality doctor to define what we think. There's any need to go into philosophical distinctions about being unforgivable and and tying that into god's middle knowledge.

I think the context is that whether or not that's the i don't think god the author of evil uh first john 1 5 says that god is light and in him there is no darker that that man i and i believe in compatible with the actions of men including evil can very mean impugn god's character because they were simply acting in accordance with their said about i know dr mcgregor points on 1836 one who that i'm not denying i just cannot help a thing with the jesuits not to go back to the basics.

Well we have to go to our final break.

It's going to be very brief and if anybody would like to join us with questions for our two guests both kirk mcgregor the molinist and dr tony costa the calvinist our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after this brief commercial break. One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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Of iron sharpens iron radio. Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study.