April 20, 2016 Show with Phil Johnson on “Mormons: Our Brothers or a Mission Field?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth. Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of April 2016 and I'm delighted that we have returning to our program one of my favorite guests of all time Phil Johnson the executive director of Grace to you, which is the radio TV and publishing ministry a world-renowned of evangelist pastor and author John MacArthur.

Today Phil is going to be discussing Mormons are they our brothers or a mission field and this was largely spurred on by an article that Recently came out by Richard Moo the president of Fuller Theological Seminary who also wrote a book on this issue who seems to have a much softer view again on the orthodoxy of Mormonism Than our guest does and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Phil Johnson. Thank you, Chris. Good to be here and in studio with me is my friend and co-host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello once again and.

Grace to You and John MacArthur’s Ministry

Before we go into the discussion Phil if you could for those of our listeners I mean, it's very unlikely that our listeners don't know who John MacArthur is. But you never know because we do have on occasion some new Christians listening.

And we also have some non-christians listening even Muslims on occasion. So why don't you tell our listeners about grace to you?

All right, John MacArthur is pastor of Grace Community Church of the Valley in Sun Valley, California that's in the Los Angeles area and He has been on the radio. We've opening his sermons on the radio since 1979.

And.

So grace to you the radio broadcast has be Bible teaching programs on Christian radio.

Yeah, he is certainly one of my favorites and one of my favorite authors and He is just a breath of fresh air in this day and age of compromise and so on. And you have Written or co-written some books yourself.

I know the law and Liberty book that came out not long ago was.

Featuring one of your chapters. Yeah, that's right. I don't write much of my own. I've contributed chapters to a few of those symposium style books. And I've actually had a couple of books published one in Italy and a couple in India.

But I don't write much because I'm actually a book editor. My background is Publishing and I devote most of my time Editing material with John MacArthur. Handful of people read it and it goes out of still be in print and being read by people.

Well, it's always a pleasure to have you on the program and You wanted to talk today about? Mormonism because there seems to be voices within the evangelical community that are attempting to soften the severity with which evangelicals and fundamentalists and conservative Christians have toward Mormons.

Some of it may have to do with Mitt Romney having run for president in the last election and people trying to rally behind a voice that was comparatively conservative in the race at the time, but.

This.

Was really sparked. This discussion that you wanted to address today was sparked by a an article by Richard Moo. Why don't you tell our listeners? Something about him. I know that he's president of Florida Theological Seminary, but would he really be within the.

The.

The realm of evangelicalism. Is he a full-blown liberal. Where would you place him?

I'd put him somewhere between evangelical and liberalism. Probably I certainly more liberal than I would normally Want to have anything to do with of course for a fairly rapid decline starting in the maybe in the 1950s.

Maybe as early as that by by the mid 1970s, they Virtually embraced a kind of neo-orthodox view of Scripture and denied the inerrancy of Scripture and. These days I think practically anything and everything can be taught and is being taught at Fuller Seminary.

So who will liberal he's the president to roll tendencies and I think a lot of that is reflected in this article. Yes, and.

Dr. James R. White who is no stranger to our Iron sharpens iron audience. He is a graduate of Fuller, but he was certainly one of the very few Conservatives perhaps even one of the very few regenerate people born-again believers.

They're.

Attending classes at Fuller and he would very often be a thorn in the side of his professors, but.

Yeah, that you know, there aren't many Evangelical students who escape Fuller unscathed. That's right, he definitely did and he'd be a prime example of that I think. Also, John Piper earned his doctorate at Fuller and You know, he's it probably not as conservative as James White but at least the two of them still now this article by.

Richard Moo that you. That really sparked. You're interested in discussing this today. I know that he's been Talking about Mormonism very favorably for years and even wrote a book right about dialoguing with with Mormons.

What was this. A recent article that perhaps was more?

Radical in his favoritism towards them. Yeah, actually it's dated May of 2016. So I gather that the print edition of the magazine that he wrote it for isn't out yet. For first things and first things is a an organization that was started by Richard John Newhouse a Roman Catholic convert who was close friends with Charles Coulson who was also You know pretty strongly ecumenical in his thrust and I said years ago If you do what they wanted to do with the Roman Catholic Church and basically break down the barriers Between Catholicism and Evangelicalism Let's ignore the doctrines that divide us and embrace one another as if you know We're all one if you could do that with Roman Catholicism.

Why couldn't you do it with Mormonism and and now there's a fairly aggressive campaign? To do that very thing and I think that's I think that dr Moo is going to become one of the chiefs already has really become one of the chief spokesmen do with Mormonism what evident they want to a little turn it of religion.

That's interesting to my knowledge.

I don't even think the Liberal World Council of Churches includes Mormons as a part of their umbrella churches, but I'm assuming Richard Moo is is not a an idiot. He's a president of a seminary and even Liberals can be quite brilliant.

Is he? Overlooking some glaring differences that are known to people who even have a cursory knowledge of Mormonism.

I mean, yeah, I don't think it's a question of ignorance I think he's just deliberately sort of closed his eyes to some rather major differences. He had lots of others frankly would like to sort of dispense with all of the Distinctives that came out of the Protestant Reformation do away with all the Protestant confessions of faith and take the church back to where the only standard, you know of orthodoxy would be the Apostles Creed and and perhaps the Nicene Creed or or you know, maybe a handful of early ecumenical creeds and.

Mormonism would pass.

I.

Made this comment yesterday that If you if you want to do that, then we might as well open the doors to Jehovah's Witnesses as well. Because they basically follow the same theology as Arius the fourth century heretic who? Denied the deity of Christ and defended himself by saying look I can sign Every statement in the Apostles Creed.

I agree with every single sentence of the Apostles Creed. How can you say I'm unorthodox just because I don't believe in the deity of Christ and that was one of the first early You know sort of trials among the church.

How much heresy are we going to admit. How specific should our creedal statements be, you know? Where where does essential truth begin and end so that if someone holds to a point of doctrine that is Apparently unorthodox.

How do you how do you know? Where do you draw the line between? Orthodoxy and and absolute unbelief. And Dr. Moo raises that very question in the article and then basically argues that it should be a totally minimalist standard that we shouldn't have rigorous whom we won't certain about doctrines like just every theological eye and crossing every theological tea as if.

These are minutiae the things that different differentiate us between Christianity and well, the fact of the matter is as you know.

Mormon theology deviates from Biblical Christianity even in far greater ways or for more ways I should say than just the gospel alone. They they are not even monotheists.

Yeah, of course, but you see that's that's the issue that Dr. Moo raises in this article. He Singles out one dogma of historic Mormonism and that is what's known as the Lorenzo Dow other The Lorenzo snow couplet.

It's a couplet that says and you've heard this if you've ever listened to any critique of Mormon Doctrine you've heard this couplet as man now is not once was as God now is man may be. That's like. That's a tenet that sort of distills the Mormon perspective of God and man the president and prophet of Latter-day Saints.

I'm magazine so waffle on the question of how important is that couplet? Is that really a canonical Mormon truth? Do we believe it any and he said some sort of typically Postmodern said well, I don't know whether we really teach that or how much we emphasize it or or a seat.

It was it was almost as if Every other sentence in his every other sentence in his statement. He gave to Time magazine was I don't know. Well, I don't know. I don't know if we really emphasize that. I don't know how how Prominent that is in our teaching etc, etc, and it made it sound like he's not really sure.

That's an important Mormon dogma and that's what dr. Moo has seized on those ambiguous statements given to a secular Reporter and he basically says, you know, that shows that Mormonism may be moving towards a more orthodox view of God.

Well, the fact is. The prophet name was Hinckley, by the way, and you can look this up by good. He made a statement. Media have been kind and generous to us. He says this past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive favorable press coverage.

With a few instances misquoted and misunderstood and I think that's to be expected. None of you he's speaking out to more as you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.

I think I understand them thoroughly and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the church. So he's saying look, whatever you read in Time magazine.

It's clearly what he's referring to. Don't take that at face value. I thoroughly understand that doctrine and basically he's assuring them that he stands behind. What in the press. I think it's fair look at that and say this has all the earmarks of a massive Church has their doctrine.

It's their strategy, right? They used to say we are the only true church we should of the true church and and Nobody else has it right now. They've switched their say to evangelicals is what we're just like you we're not that different.

We believe most of the same things that you should embrace us as as alternative Denomination and and not reject us as non-christians, but embrace us as brothers and they're they're desperately looking for Evangelical acceptance literally come to your door and want to teach you privately what Mormon doctrine really is.

Yeah, well as I said to you not long ago just a couple of months ago I while strolling down the street here in my New home when I say new home, it's about three years now in Carlisle, Pennsylvania I could tell from about 50 yards away that there were some young men who were Mormons and I could tell by their white Shirts black ties and black pocket badges and haircuts.

Yeah, so I yelled out to them Hey, are you Mormons and they stopped in their tracks and said yeah, we are so I said, hold on a minute. And I got up when I caught up with them. I had a conversation with them and They had a completely different Sales pitch if you will then I heard years earlier when I invited Mormons into my living room to discuss Theology and so on these young men were saying in a very stilted and robotic and rehearsed way You have probably heard that we believe that we are the only true church, but that is not true at all.

We're Christians just like you are, you know, and they started in with this very ecumenical Routine and I told them you do realize that this is a very very new Concept in your religion, don't you? Don't you you do know that this is almost a hundred and eighty degrees polar opposite to what your church Used to teach up until fairly recently.

Yeah, yeah when I was a young person who's been back in the 1960s and some Mormon missionaries came to our house and because my father was Friends when he was in the Navy with a man who was Mormon and had a personal relationship with this guy.

He let them in and let them go through the Mormon spiel with us and I remember they had it was old-fashioned stuff a slide projector and and Little package stories that tell you the story of Mormonism and all of that and it is a Completely different approach than they are taking today, but it's not and I can't stress this too much.

It is not a Mormon doctrine that's changing Strategy and there's a reason for it. You more or less hinted at it. It's it's definitely tied with politics in an era when you know We see our Society melting down morally and culture embracing more and more secularism there's been a lot of pressure on all all religions to sort of combine their cloud and get together and oppose things like abortion and homosexuality and some of the You know great moral issues that are being debated.

We stand together on these things the argument goes so so let's Let's set aside the areas where we differ and combine our clout. And it's a very seductive way of sort of getting around what the Bible says we ought to do when someone comes Proclaiming a different Christ or preaching a different gospel.

Why Mormonism Is Not Christianity

Now I think it would probably be a good idea not that we have to be exhaustive about this but for people who are Wondering why are they making such a fuss about Mormonism after all it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, isn't it?

Well, let's go with the big one to start with. I already mentioned that they're not even monotheist Mormons. Believe correct me if I'm wrong that if they are faithful Mormons They will become gods of their own planet after they die, correct.

Yeah, that is the That is I believe what virtually all rank-and-file Mormons are taught and believe that is the point of the couplet that whether Mormons really believe it, but you can read any Mormon literature and pretty much all of it stresses this idea that as As man now is God once was that there's a huge problem in that.

Because it essentially denies the transcendence of God. He's he's really no different. Ultimately. He's just more advanced than you and me, but but really of the same Species of God and we will eventually if we're faithful the Mormons say become like him.

Which of course can't possibly be monotheistic in any sense.

Exactly.

Yeah, in fact, I'm going to give a plug to a new documentary that's available. In fact the Reverend buzz Taylor and I were both Invited to participate in this documentary doing voiceovers of famous Mormons.

But that was a whole lot of fun. The Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City where my friend Jason Wallace is the pastor. He did an extremely professional Documentary really top-notch that should be broadcast on different television networks but it is a basically a documentary that exposes.

The.

Contradictions and the deceptions and The deceit and the secrecy of Mormonism since its inception in the 19th century. And Going to what we were just talking about the denial of monotheism. There one of the quotes right from the mouth of Bruce McConkie who was considered an apostle He said that it was one of the greatest heresies That has ever existed is to teach that God meaning God the Father did not have flesh and bone and blood just as we do and Then keep in mind.

They're not talking about the incarnation of Jesus Christ. They're talking about God the Father there. Right, and the thing that's the very valuable about this video is that it's filled with direct quotes, right?

From famous Mormons mouths Mormons who were Apostles prophets presidents of their religion and so on that that video can be found at LDS video. LDS video and it's a really fine job that Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church has done.

One of the other things that is very dishonest that Mormons continually say in public. That this this video brings out is that they do not criticize other religions and You have the whole the whole religion is founded on on Joseph Smith declaring that all the other Christian denominations were false and You do still have missionaries going all over the world.

Telling the story of how Joseph Smith was allegedly divinely told this truth quote quote that all of the other denominations that were in existence including Presbyterianism which He came out of the Presbyterian Denomination is a false religion, but that that that is just another part of their PR campaign that they are the the truly loving and friendly and Irenic folks as opposed to we.

Who are attacking them?

Right. Yeah, and it's got a lot of mileage for them as well. I think one of the reasons Mormonism Grew so much in the past 40 years or so that Mormons are typically clean-cut people with with You know a high sense of morality and not you don't you don't typically associate Mormons these days with any kind of Sin that was one of the these days have more or less learned that More easily gained them a hearing and converts and they've they've done a good job with that.

And what's a shame it now is to see non Mormons. Sort of assisting in that campaign to make Mormonism seem like it's mainstream when it really isn't at all. By the way, why are you recommending things?

Let me recommend something to for those especially who may have read a dr Article and thought whoa, this is new and interesting and maybe compelling there's an answer to it by Rob Bowman online. You'll have to do a Google search for it.

But Rob Bowman BOW man. He didn't search for his response. Sorry mo by Rob Bowman, and I it's it's very helpful in answering the arguments set forth here by Richard and.

I can't resist this joke. But I think that Richard Moore's article is utter nonsense. I'm sorry, I couldn't I couldn't resist. But now obviously you've already touched on it, but the the whole concept of salvation and how one and inherits eternal life polar opposite polar 180 degrees opposite to biblical Christianity with Mormonism, isn't it?

Justification by Faith Alone and the Fruit of Sanctification

Passion on this issue. There are some leading Mormon apologists who are you know, I've linked arms with Richard Moore and a few other evangelical leaders to try to lead this campaign and they in the early days I haven't seen him do it too much anymore because I've I've tried to answer them every time I've seen it.

But they like to quote John MacArthur as if he's sympathetic to their point of view. Principle of Sola Fide. Oh my the doctor of justification by faith alone and they the early some of the early one of them was a local attorney who's a Mormon guy who wrote a book called biblical Mormonism and the subtitle is responding to evangelical criticism of Latter-day Saints theology and He wrote this book and he he had gone through I think fairly superficially superficially a lot of evangelical writers.

He quotes for example from the Schofield study Bible, and I think he quotes Charles Ryrie and Whatever, but some of these guys imagined that engine that must also be works. For justification, of course what John MacArthur argued was that yes, we are justified by faith alone but those who are justified will be being sanctified so works are the fruit of The faith by which we lay hold of our justification and if works don't follow then you have to examine your faith and ask Is it genuine faith?

They they read it as I said rather superstitious superficially and and You know Tried to quote John MacArthur or refer to his books on the Lordship issue as if who agrees with us that justification that faith alone is not a sufficient right and that's.

They misread Dr. MacArthur just as the Those who who reject Lordship salvation misread dr. MacArthur, but for different reasons. They were right exactly.

That debate but nevertheless they they both twist and misread what he has to say. In fact a few of these guys actually came out and had a meeting with John MacArthur in the early 90s. Before it was really crystal clear what the What the goal was and used the fact that John had agreed to actually meet with him and have a conversation with him to imply in Comments that were posted all over the internet that somehow John MacArthur was.

Was.

Supportive of and encouraging about this between Mormonism and evangelicals and of course John had been to issue a statement saying that that is not at all what this meeting was about.

And so.

We're going to our first break here. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen and gmail .com. If you could please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you The radio TV and publishing ministry of dr. John MacArthur. We're talking about the theme Mormons our brothers or a mission field.

And this was spurred on largely by a recent article by Richard Mu who is president of Fuller Theological Seminary who is trying to blur the line of division between Christians and Mormons. If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Orns and at gmail .com Chris Orns and at gmail .com.

And we do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Tyler Who says with Mormonism. The problem obviously is a false Christology would you say denying the inerrancy of Scripture leads to all heresy?

Well denying the authority of Scripture definitely to all heresy I think there are heretics who actually would give some kind of verbal lip service to the inerrancy of Scripture and Also once you've denied the inerrancy of Scripture you have denied the authority of Scripture.

I think the real issue here is the authority of Scripture. Is Scripture authoritative and is it a sufficient authority that the Problems with Mormonism begin with the fact that they have this extra biblical scripture Ultimately really isn't allowed to local body that you you know, you're claiming is Inspired as well as it's fresher newer Material you have to.

You have to read the Bible through the lens of the Book of Mormon and that will Create all kinds of problems for you because the Book of Mormon doesn't itself does not correctly interpret Scripture, right?

In fact, they will say very openly that the Bible can only be trusted as far as it has been accurately accurately Translated and they don't believe that any right English translation has been thoroughly accurately translated and they believe that the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Grace great price and the Doctrine and Covenants all supersede the Bible.

By the way, obviously a no-brainer that any everybody listening should look up and and Purchase and read is James White's book is the Mormon my brother because that's actually right on the subject. We're speaking about is the Mormon my brother.

Where which you can order through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who Sponsor iron sharpens iron at CV BBS comm Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm and you could obviously also go to James White's website a o m i n org That stands for Alpha and Omega ministries a o m n o r g.

One thing that was interesting in my encounter with a young Mormon Elder slash missionary years ago in my living room he agreed with everything that I had said about Mormonism much to the embarrassment of.

His.

Colleague that accompanied him. There was an older Mormon man that I thought was going to be the brains of the two but it turned out that the young man knew more knew a lot more than the older man and The older man kept sticking his foot in his mouth saying that Mormons don't believe that and the younger man was affirming That oh, yeah, we do we do believe that but one thing that he He dug his heels in about as he said.

He just totally Got outraged when I said that Brigham Young taught as dogma that The God the Father actually tabernacled in flesh or became came to earth in human form and had intercourse with Mary the mother of Jesus in order to impregnate her and That this is that they're teaching that the Christ was not conceived by miraculous work of the Holy Spirit at all.

It was a act that took place just like any other human is conceived by Parents. And he that's when he said, oh, wait a minute that you're out of your mind with that one and he started gathering up his belongings and I Challenged him to verify that when he left.

And that is irrefutable teaching that can be easily Proven and documented through through Mormon through a little bit of cursory Mormon research.

The Fluidity of Mormon Doctrine and Its Racist Past

Yeah, one of the difficulties in critiquing Mormonism is they Mormonism hasn't really frequently have living prophets. So It seems to me that Mormon dogma is a bit fluid in the sense that It is common to be speaking with a Mormon and say well, this is what you know, Brigham Young taught and yeah.

But we don't all believe that, you know. So it's pretty hard to really nail down any any Mormon teaching and and insist that This is this is that's exactly what dr Moo is doing with this article. He's saying sure you can find lots of Mormon sources that quote the Lorenzo snow couplet, but that doesn't mean all Mormons believe it or that that's what the church officially teaches and It's not like even Roman Catholicism where you can always go to the Catechism, you know the official catechism and say right here it is in your Catechism in the writings of visual Mormon has his own idea of what the church actually teaches.

Yeah, one of the things that they really have a hard time getting around is the Mormon teaching prior to the 1970s that blacks could not enter into the Mormon priesthood. They could not be members of the Mormon tavern tabernacle choir they in fact it was taught.

That Mormons would at the very best their very highest hope that were for blacks with that they would be the servants of lights in the celestial kingdom, but they conveniently Had to abandon that teaching or lose their tax-exempt status so much in the same way.

That they abandoned polygamy because the government the government was threatening to seize their property and arrest them. They conveniently changed their teachings.

Absolutely a pattern with Mormonism and that's why you have a lot of offshoot Mormon cults. Who some of them still practice polygamy and and have various other ideas and each of the each of the small? subcultures that they're the true Mormonism and.

It's a it's it's a surprisingly diverse ideas split. And you can find sources for what I all say pragmatic reasons. They abandoned polygamy that was a polygamy official Mormonism with the view early treated as Canonical law now is done away with and let's pretend.

We never taught this right. That's the thing about let's pretend.

We never taught it. Yeah, and of course we all of us involved in today's program. We would abhor the Segregationist and racist teaching of the Mormon past so it's not like we're disappointed that they reversed their opinion.

We just are trying to point out that.

The prophets must have failed in their divine disappointment. Yeah, that's exactly my disappointment. Is that in it lies in the fact that they won't. That is proof that this wasn't in.

Yeah, this Mormon young man in my living room when I was having this little Discussion with him back in the 90s. I guess it was When I brought that up the racist teachings of Mormonism's past. He said oh, who are you to talk?

You're a Baptist and there are Baptists in the Ku Klux Klan. Well, I said to him very quickly. Yeah, and there'll be Baptists in hell. Is Joseph Smith or Brigham Young who taught these racist things as divinely inspired truth.

Are they going to be in hell. And he and he had no answer for that. Obviously, there's a huge difference between Professing Christians and even genuinely Christian people who Act sinfully or an act in contradiction to the scriptures.

There's a big difference between that and Something that is claimed to have been divine prophecy infallible inerrant prophecy, right. And in fact my co-host buzz Taylor was a Student at Bob Jones University that doesn't have the greatest Reputation in its past in regard to race relations.

That was all happening when I was there. What you mean they had the segregationist policy when you were there.

They lost their tax-exempt status while I was there. That was when you're in heat of the battle.

They they forbid dating right. Interracial dating, you know, yeah and.

Is there anything else that we should address before maybe even moving on to the larger picture of why this Richard Moo article is disturbing. Is there any specific tenets of Mormonism that we need to go to?

Before we move on because I think that there's a larger problem here about what Christians are supposed to embrace as.

Things.

That are or should I say what things that Christians are to view as as nominal minimal and trivial unimportant for the sake of quote-quote brotherly love and kindness and Friendliness and so on. That's basically seems to be at the heart of what's going on here that yeah.

The big issue if if anybody if anyone wants more help with Mormonism actually James White is a better Source of that even that I am and you recommended his book already No, men org Mormonism. Yeah, dr. White's ministry actually began.

Primarily as a ministry whose efforts were focused on refuting Mormonism. Because he lives in Arizona where Mormonism is just as prevalent as Catholicism would be in other parts of the country. Mormonism is probably the primary cult that the people in that area the southwest area.

Right would be. I think the biggest problem really that I'm hearing today though is the problem of the lack of discernment on Christians.

Part.

I can just hear John MacArthur talking about you know, the lack of discernment that we're experiencing here. Yeah.

Yeah, and the tremendous pressure that there is to set aside as many doctrines as possible and and have just a minimal core truth that we that we all affirm together and then Embraer decide our differences.

It's that that position is to repudiate the practice. That's true. If that's really what we ought to do about theology proper, you know, maybe even I. Don't theology proper it's pretty much what everything else we can set aside and and regard as just to go back evil view or even yeah, the.

Seems that the climate that increasingly gets more dominant in our culture as each year passes is. That to be critical and to use proper judgment is.

All.

Judgmental ism. It's it's arrogance. It's pride. It's sectarianism and It's we are the ones that are viewed as being out of step with the character of Christ. As opposed to people who have their arms stretched wide open willing to embrace.

All who claim the name of Christ, right? Well, and of course that goes far beyond Religious even issues even. That's a that's the drift of thinking in the world today. It's the whole idea behind, you know, what we the notion that nothing is really certain.

So we shouldn't be dogmatic about anything. It's okay to believe whatever makes you feel good. But don't say that anybody else is wrong about anything and that's why we're at a point where you know. Somebody can say I believe I'm a dog born in a man's body.