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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arnton.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth. Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of April 2016 and I'm delighted that we have returning to our program one of my favorite guests of all time Phil Johnson the executive director of Grace to you, which is the radio TV and publishing ministry a world-renowned of evangelist pastor and author John MacArthur.
Today Phil is going to be discussing Mormons are they our brothers or a mission field and this was largely spurred on by an article that Recently came out by Richard Moo the president of Fuller Theological Seminary who also wrote a book on this issue who seems to have a much softer view again on the orthodoxy of Mormonism Than our guest does and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.
Phil Johnson. Thank you, Chris. Good to be here and in studio with me is my friend and co-host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.
Hello once again and.
Before we go into the discussion Phil if you could for those of our listeners I mean, it's very unlikely that our listeners don't know who John MacArthur is. But you never know because we do have on occasion some new Christians listening.
And we also have some non-christians listening even Muslims on occasion. So why don't you tell our listeners about grace to you?
All right, John MacArthur is pastor of Grace Community Church of the Valley in Sun Valley, California that's in the Los Angeles area and He has been on the radio. We've opening his sermons on the radio since 1979.
And.
So grace to you the radio broadcast has be Bible teaching programs on Christian radio.
Yeah, he is certainly one of my favorites and one of my favorite authors and He is just a breath of fresh air in this day and age of compromise and so on. And you have Written or co-written some books yourself.
I know the law and Liberty book that came out not long ago was.
Featuring one of your chapters. Yeah, that's right. I don't write much of my own. I've contributed chapters to a few of those symposium style books. And I've actually had a couple of books published one in Italy and a couple in India.
But I don't write much because I'm actually a book editor. My background is Publishing and I devote most of my time Editing material with John MacArthur. Handful of people read it and it goes out of still be in print and being read by people.
Well, it's always a pleasure to have you on the program and You wanted to talk today about? Mormonism because there seems to be voices within the evangelical community that are attempting to soften the severity with which evangelicals and fundamentalists and conservative Christians have toward Mormons.
Some of it may have to do with Mitt Romney having run for president in the last election and people trying to rally behind a voice that was comparatively conservative in the race at the time, but.
This.
Was really sparked. This discussion that you wanted to address today was sparked by a an article by Richard Moo. Why don't you tell our listeners? Something about him. I know that he's president of Florida Theological Seminary, but would he really be within the.
The.
The realm of evangelicalism. Is he a full-blown liberal. Where would you place him?
I'd put him somewhere between evangelical and liberalism. Probably I certainly more liberal than I would normally Want to have anything to do with of course for a fairly rapid decline starting in the maybe in the 1950s.
Maybe as early as that by by the mid 1970s, they Virtually embraced a kind of neo-orthodox view of Scripture and denied the inerrancy of Scripture and. These days I think practically anything and everything can be taught and is being taught at Fuller Seminary.
So who will liberal he's the president to roll tendencies and I think a lot of that is reflected in this article. Yes, and.
Dr. James R. White who is no stranger to our Iron sharpens iron audience. He is a graduate of Fuller, but he was certainly one of the very few Conservatives perhaps even one of the very few regenerate people born-again believers.
They're.
Attending classes at Fuller and he would very often be a thorn in the side of his professors, but.
Yeah, that you know, there aren't many Evangelical students who escape Fuller unscathed. That's right, he definitely did and he'd be a prime example of that I think. Also, John Piper earned his doctorate at Fuller and You know, he's it probably not as conservative as James White but at least the two of them still now this article by.
Richard Moo that you. That really sparked. You're interested in discussing this today. I know that he's been Talking about Mormonism very favorably for years and even wrote a book right about dialoguing with with Mormons.
What was this. A recent article that perhaps was more?
Radical in his favoritism towards them. Yeah, actually it's dated May of 2016. So I gather that the print edition of the magazine that he wrote it for isn't out yet. For first things and first things is a an organization that was started by Richard John Newhouse a Roman Catholic convert who was close friends with Charles Coulson who was also You know pretty strongly ecumenical in his thrust and I said years ago If you do what they wanted to do with the Roman Catholic Church and basically break down the barriers Between Catholicism and Evangelicalism Let's ignore the doctrines that divide us and embrace one another as if you know We're all one if you could do that with Roman Catholicism.
Why couldn't you do it with Mormonism and and now there's a fairly aggressive campaign? To do that very thing and I think that's I think that dr Moo is going to become one of the chiefs already has really become one of the chief spokesmen do with Mormonism what evident they want to a little turn it of religion.
That's interesting to my knowledge.
I don't even think the Liberal World Council of Churches includes Mormons as a part of their umbrella churches, but I'm assuming Richard Moo is is not a an idiot. He's a president of a seminary and even Liberals can be quite brilliant.
Is he? Overlooking some glaring differences that are known to people who even have a cursory knowledge of Mormonism.
I mean, yeah, I don't think it's a question of ignorance I think he's just deliberately sort of closed his eyes to some rather major differences. He had lots of others frankly would like to sort of dispense with all of the Distinctives that came out of the Protestant Reformation do away with all the Protestant confessions of faith and take the church back to where the only standard, you know of orthodoxy would be the Apostles Creed and and perhaps the Nicene Creed or or you know, maybe a handful of early ecumenical creeds and.
Mormonism would pass.
I.
Made this comment yesterday that If you if you want to do that, then we might as well open the doors to Jehovah's Witnesses as well. Because they basically follow the same theology as Arius the fourth century heretic who? Denied the deity of Christ and defended himself by saying look I can sign Every statement in the Apostles Creed.
I agree with every single sentence of the Apostles Creed. How can you say I'm unorthodox just because I don't believe in the deity of Christ and that was one of the first early You know sort of trials among the church.
How much heresy are we going to admit. How specific should our creedal statements be, you know? Where where does essential truth begin and end so that if someone holds to a point of doctrine that is Apparently unorthodox.
How do you how do you know? Where do you draw the line between? Orthodoxy and and absolute unbelief. And Dr. Moo raises that very question in the article and then basically argues that it should be a totally minimalist standard that we shouldn't have rigorous whom we won't certain about doctrines like just every theological eye and crossing every theological tea as if.
These are minutiae the things that different differentiate us between Christianity and well, the fact of the matter is as you know.
Mormon theology deviates from Biblical Christianity even in far greater ways or for more ways I should say than just the gospel alone. They they are not even monotheists.
Yeah, of course, but you see that's that's the issue that Dr. Moo raises in this article. He Singles out one dogma of historic Mormonism and that is what's known as the Lorenzo Dow other The Lorenzo snow couplet.
It's a couplet that says and you've heard this if you've ever listened to any critique of Mormon Doctrine you've heard this couplet as man now is not once was as God now is man may be. That's like. That's a tenet that sort of distills the Mormon perspective of God and man the president and prophet of Latter-day Saints.
I'm magazine so waffle on the question of how important is that couplet? Is that really a canonical Mormon truth? Do we believe it any and he said some sort of typically Postmodern said well, I don't know whether we really teach that or how much we emphasize it or or a seat.
It was it was almost as if Every other sentence in his every other sentence in his statement. He gave to Time magazine was I don't know. Well, I don't know. I don't know if we really emphasize that. I don't know how how Prominent that is in our teaching etc, etc, and it made it sound like he's not really sure.
That's an important Mormon dogma and that's what dr. Moo has seized on those ambiguous statements given to a secular Reporter and he basically says, you know, that shows that Mormonism may be moving towards a more orthodox view of God.
Well, the fact is. The prophet name was Hinckley, by the way, and you can look this up by good. He made a statement. Media have been kind and generous to us. He says this past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive favorable press coverage.
With a few instances misquoted and misunderstood and I think that's to be expected. None of you he's speaking out to more as you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.
I think I understand them thoroughly and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the church. So he's saying look, whatever you read in Time magazine.
It's clearly what he's referring to. Don't take that at face value. I thoroughly understand that doctrine and basically he's assuring them that he stands behind. What in the press. I think it's fair look at that and say this has all the earmarks of a massive Church has their doctrine.
It's their strategy, right? They used to say we are the only true church we should of the true church and and Nobody else has it right now. They've switched their say to evangelicals is what we're just like you we're not that different.
We believe most of the same things that you should embrace us as as alternative Denomination and and not reject us as non-christians, but embrace us as brothers and they're they're desperately looking for Evangelical acceptance literally come to your door and want to teach you privately what Mormon doctrine really is.
Yeah, well as I said to you not long ago just a couple of months ago I while strolling down the street here in my New home when I say new home, it's about three years now in Carlisle, Pennsylvania I could tell from about 50 yards away that there were some young men who were Mormons and I could tell by their white Shirts black ties and black pocket badges and haircuts.
Yeah, so I yelled out to them Hey, are you Mormons and they stopped in their tracks and said yeah, we are so I said, hold on a minute. And I got up when I caught up with them. I had a conversation with them and They had a completely different Sales pitch if you will then I heard years earlier when I invited Mormons into my living room to discuss Theology and so on these young men were saying in a very stilted and robotic and rehearsed way You have probably heard that we believe that we are the only true church, but that is not true at all.
We're Christians just like you are, you know, and they started in with this very ecumenical Routine and I told them you do realize that this is a very very new Concept in your religion, don't you? Don't you you do know that this is almost a hundred and eighty degrees polar opposite to what your church Used to teach up until fairly recently.
Yeah, yeah when I was a young person who's been back in the 1960s and some Mormon missionaries came to our house and because my father was Friends when he was in the Navy with a man who was Mormon and had a personal relationship with this guy.
He let them in and let them go through the Mormon spiel with us and I remember they had it was old-fashioned stuff a slide projector and and Little package stories that tell you the story of Mormonism and all of that and it is a Completely different approach than they are taking today, but it's not and I can't stress this too much.
It is not a Mormon doctrine that's changing Strategy and there's a reason for it. You more or less hinted at it. It's it's definitely tied with politics in an era when you know We see our Society melting down morally and culture embracing more and more secularism there's been a lot of pressure on all all religions to sort of combine their cloud and get together and oppose things like abortion and homosexuality and some of the You know great moral issues that are being debated.
We stand together on these things the argument goes so so let's Let's set aside the areas where we differ and combine our clout. And it's a very seductive way of sort of getting around what the Bible says we ought to do when someone comes Proclaiming a different Christ or preaching a different gospel.
Now I think it would probably be a good idea not that we have to be exhaustive about this but for people who are Wondering why are they making such a fuss about Mormonism after all it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, isn't it?
Well, let's go with the big one to start with. I already mentioned that they're not even monotheist Mormons. Believe correct me if I'm wrong that if they are faithful Mormons They will become gods of their own planet after they die, correct.
Yeah, that is the That is I believe what virtually all rank-and-file Mormons are taught and believe that is the point of the couplet that whether Mormons really believe it, but you can read any Mormon literature and pretty much all of it stresses this idea that as As man now is God once was that there's a huge problem in that.
Because it essentially denies the transcendence of God. He's he's really no different. Ultimately. He's just more advanced than you and me, but but really of the same Species of God and we will eventually if we're faithful the Mormons say become like him.
Which of course can't possibly be monotheistic in any sense.
Exactly.
Yeah, in fact, I'm going to give a plug to a new documentary that's available. In fact the Reverend buzz Taylor and I were both Invited to participate in this documentary doing voiceovers of famous Mormons.
But that was a whole lot of fun. The Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City where my friend Jason Wallace is the pastor. He did an extremely professional Documentary really top-notch that should be broadcast on different television networks but it is a basically a documentary that exposes.
Contradictions and the deceptions and The deceit and the secrecy of Mormonism since its inception in the 19th century. And Going to what we were just talking about the denial of monotheism. There one of the quotes right from the mouth of Bruce McConkie who was considered an apostle He said that it was one of the greatest heresies That has ever existed is to teach that God meaning God the Father did not have flesh and bone and blood just as we do and Then keep in mind.
They're not talking about the incarnation of Jesus Christ. They're talking about God the Father there. Right, and the thing that's the very valuable about this video is that it's filled with direct quotes, right?
From famous Mormons mouths Mormons who were Apostles prophets presidents of their religion and so on that that video can be found at LDS video. LDS video and it's a really fine job that Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church has done.
One of the other things that is very dishonest that Mormons continually say in public. That this this video brings out is that they do not criticize other religions and You have the whole the whole religion is founded on on Joseph Smith declaring that all the other Christian denominations were false and You do still have missionaries going all over the world.
Telling the story of how Joseph Smith was allegedly divinely told this truth quote quote that all of the other denominations that were in existence including Presbyterianism which He came out of the Presbyterian Denomination is a false religion, but that that that is just another part of their PR campaign that they are the the truly loving and friendly and Irenic folks as opposed to we.
Who are attacking them?
Right. Yeah, and it's got a lot of mileage for them as well. I think one of the reasons Mormonism Grew so much in the past 40 years or so that Mormons are typically clean-cut people with with You know a high sense of morality and not you don't you don't typically associate Mormons these days with any kind of Sin that was one of the these days have more or less learned that More easily gained them a hearing and converts and they've they've done a good job with that.
And what's a shame it now is to see non Mormons. Sort of assisting in that campaign to make Mormonism seem like it's mainstream when it really isn't at all. By the way, why are you recommending things?
Let me recommend something to for those especially who may have read a dr Article and thought whoa, this is new and interesting and maybe compelling there's an answer to it by Rob Bowman online. You'll have to do a Google search for it.
But Rob Bowman BOW man. He didn't search for his response. Sorry mo by Rob Bowman, and I it's it's very helpful in answering the arguments set forth here by Richard and.
I can't resist this joke. But I think that Richard Moore's article is utter nonsense. I'm sorry, I couldn't I couldn't resist. But now obviously you've already touched on it, but the the whole concept of salvation and how one and inherits eternal life polar opposite polar 180 degrees opposite to biblical Christianity with Mormonism, isn't it?
Passion on this issue. There are some leading Mormon apologists who are you know, I've linked arms with Richard Moore and a few other evangelical leaders to try to lead this campaign and they in the early days I haven't seen him do it too much anymore because I've I've tried to answer them every time I've seen it.
But they like to quote John MacArthur as if he's sympathetic to their point of view. Principle of Sola Fide. Oh my the doctor of justification by faith alone and they the early some of the early one of them was a local attorney who's a Mormon guy who wrote a book called biblical Mormonism and the subtitle is responding to evangelical criticism of Latter-day Saints theology and He wrote this book and he he had gone through I think fairly superficially superficially a lot of evangelical writers.
He quotes for example from the Schofield study Bible, and I think he quotes Charles Ryrie and Whatever, but some of these guys imagined that engine that must also be works. For justification, of course what John MacArthur argued was that yes, we are justified by faith alone but those who are justified will be being sanctified so works are the fruit of The faith by which we lay hold of our justification and if works don't follow then you have to examine your faith and ask Is it genuine faith?
They they read it as I said rather superstitious superficially and and You know Tried to quote John MacArthur or refer to his books on the Lordship issue as if who agrees with us that justification that faith alone is not a sufficient right and that's.
They misread Dr. MacArthur just as the Those who who reject Lordship salvation misread dr. MacArthur, but for different reasons. They were right exactly.
That debate but nevertheless they they both twist and misread what he has to say. In fact a few of these guys actually came out and had a meeting with John MacArthur in the early 90s. Before it was really crystal clear what the What the goal was and used the fact that John had agreed to actually meet with him and have a conversation with him to imply in Comments that were posted all over the internet that somehow John MacArthur was.
Was.
Supportive of and encouraging about this between Mormonism and evangelicals and of course John had been to issue a statement saying that that is not at all what this meeting was about.
And so.
We're going to our first break here. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen and gmail .com. If you could please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence.
We would appreciate that. Of course, if it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we will welcome your question. Nonetheless, so we look forward to hearing from you and your questions After these messages, so don't go away.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Orns and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you The radio TV and publishing ministry of dr. John MacArthur. We're talking about the theme Mormons our brothers or a mission field.
And this was spurred on largely by a recent article by Richard Mu who is president of Fuller Theological Seminary who is trying to blur the line of division between Christians and Mormons. If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Orns and at gmail .com Chris Orns and at gmail .com.
And we do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Tyler Who says with Mormonism. The problem obviously is a false Christology would you say denying the inerrancy of Scripture leads to all heresy?
Well denying the authority of Scripture definitely to all heresy I think there are heretics who actually would give some kind of verbal lip service to the inerrancy of Scripture and Also once you've denied the inerrancy of Scripture you have denied the authority of Scripture.
I think the real issue here is the authority of Scripture. Is Scripture authoritative and is it a sufficient authority that the Problems with Mormonism begin with the fact that they have this extra biblical scripture Ultimately really isn't allowed to local body that you you know, you're claiming is Inspired as well as it's fresher newer Material you have to.
You have to read the Bible through the lens of the Book of Mormon and that will Create all kinds of problems for you because the Book of Mormon doesn't itself does not correctly interpret Scripture, right?
In fact, they will say very openly that the Bible can only be trusted as far as it has been accurately accurately Translated and they don't believe that any right English translation has been thoroughly accurately translated and they believe that the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Grace great price and the Doctrine and Covenants all supersede the Bible.
By the way, obviously a no-brainer that any everybody listening should look up and and Purchase and read is James White's book is the Mormon my brother because that's actually right on the subject. We're speaking about is the Mormon my brother.
Where which you can order through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who Sponsor iron sharpens iron at CV BBS comm Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm and you could obviously also go to James White's website a o m i n org That stands for Alpha and Omega ministries a o m n o r g.
One thing that was interesting in my encounter with a young Mormon Elder slash missionary years ago in my living room he agreed with everything that I had said about Mormonism much to the embarrassment of.
His.
Colleague that accompanied him. There was an older Mormon man that I thought was going to be the brains of the two but it turned out that the young man knew more knew a lot more than the older man and The older man kept sticking his foot in his mouth saying that Mormons don't believe that and the younger man was affirming That oh, yeah, we do we do believe that but one thing that he He dug his heels in about as he said.
He just totally Got outraged when I said that Brigham Young taught as dogma that The God the Father actually tabernacled in flesh or became came to earth in human form and had intercourse with Mary the mother of Jesus in order to impregnate her and That this is that they're teaching that the Christ was not conceived by miraculous work of the Holy Spirit at all.
It was a act that took place just like any other human is conceived by Parents. And he that's when he said, oh, wait a minute that you're out of your mind with that one and he started gathering up his belongings and I Challenged him to verify that when he left.
And that is irrefutable teaching that can be easily Proven and documented through through Mormon through a little bit of cursory Mormon research.
Yeah, one of the difficulties in critiquing Mormonism is they Mormonism hasn't really frequently have living prophets. So It seems to me that Mormon dogma is a bit fluid in the sense that It is common to be speaking with a Mormon and say well, this is what you know, Brigham Young taught and yeah.
But we don't all believe that, you know. So it's pretty hard to really nail down any any Mormon teaching and and insist that This is this is that's exactly what dr Moo is doing with this article. He's saying sure you can find lots of Mormon sources that quote the Lorenzo snow couplet, but that doesn't mean all Mormons believe it or that that's what the church officially teaches and It's not like even Roman Catholicism where you can always go to the Catechism, you know the official catechism and say right here it is in your Catechism in the writings of visual Mormon has his own idea of what the church actually teaches.
Yeah, one of the things that they really have a hard time getting around is the Mormon teaching prior to the 1970s that blacks could not enter into the Mormon priesthood. They could not be members of the Mormon tavern tabernacle choir they in fact it was taught.
That Mormons would at the very best their very highest hope that were for blacks with that they would be the servants of lights in the celestial kingdom, but they conveniently Had to abandon that teaching or lose their tax-exempt status so much in the same way.
That they abandoned polygamy because the government the government was threatening to seize their property and arrest them. They conveniently changed their teachings.
Absolutely a pattern with Mormonism and that's why you have a lot of offshoot Mormon cults. Who some of them still practice polygamy and and have various other ideas and each of the each of the small? subcultures that they're the true Mormonism and.
It's a it's it's a surprisingly diverse ideas split. And you can find sources for what I all say pragmatic reasons. They abandoned polygamy that was a polygamy official Mormonism with the view early treated as Canonical law now is done away with and let's pretend.
We never taught this right. That's the thing about let's pretend.
We never taught it. Yeah, and of course we all of us involved in today's program. We would abhor the Segregationist and racist teaching of the Mormon past so it's not like we're disappointed that they reversed their opinion.
We just are trying to point out that.
The prophets must have failed in their divine disappointment. Yeah, that's exactly my disappointment. Is that in it lies in the fact that they won't. That is proof that this wasn't in.
Yeah, this Mormon young man in my living room when I was having this little Discussion with him back in the 90s. I guess it was When I brought that up the racist teachings of Mormonism's past. He said oh, who are you to talk?
You're a Baptist and there are Baptists in the Ku Klux Klan. Well, I said to him very quickly. Yeah, and there'll be Baptists in hell. Is Joseph Smith or Brigham Young who taught these racist things as divinely inspired truth.
Are they going to be in hell. And he and he had no answer for that. Obviously, there's a huge difference between Professing Christians and even genuinely Christian people who Act sinfully or an act in contradiction to the scriptures.
There's a big difference between that and Something that is claimed to have been divine prophecy infallible inerrant prophecy, right. And in fact my co-host buzz Taylor was a Student at Bob Jones University that doesn't have the greatest Reputation in its past in regard to race relations.
That was all happening when I was there. What you mean they had the segregationist policy when you were there.
They lost their tax-exempt status while I was there. That was when you're in heat of the battle.
They they forbid dating right. Interracial dating, you know, yeah and.
Is there anything else that we should address before maybe even moving on to the larger picture of why this Richard Moo article is disturbing. Is there any specific tenets of Mormonism that we need to go to?
Before we move on because I think that there's a larger problem here about what Christians are supposed to embrace as.
Things.
That are or should I say what things that Christians are to view as as nominal minimal and trivial unimportant for the sake of quote-quote brotherly love and kindness and Friendliness and so on. That's basically seems to be at the heart of what's going on here that yeah.
The big issue if if anybody if anyone wants more help with Mormonism actually James White is a better Source of that even that I am and you recommended his book already No, men org Mormonism. Yeah, dr. White's ministry actually began.
Primarily as a ministry whose efforts were focused on refuting Mormonism. Because he lives in Arizona where Mormonism is just as prevalent as Catholicism would be in other parts of the country. Mormonism is probably the primary cult that the people in that area the southwest area.
Right would be. I think the biggest problem really that I'm hearing today though is the problem of the lack of discernment on Christians.
Part.
I can just hear John MacArthur talking about you know, the lack of discernment that we're experiencing here. Yeah.
Yeah, and the tremendous pressure that there is to set aside as many doctrines as possible and and have just a minimal core truth that we that we all affirm together and then Embraer decide our differences.
It's that that position is to repudiate the practice. That's true. If that's really what we ought to do about theology proper, you know, maybe even I. Don't theology proper it's pretty much what everything else we can set aside and and regard as just to go back evil view or even yeah, the.
Seems that the climate that increasingly gets more dominant in our culture as each year passes is. That to be critical and to use proper judgment is.
All.
Judgmental ism. It's it's arrogance. It's pride. It's sectarianism and It's we are the ones that are viewed as being out of step with the character of Christ. As opposed to people who have their arms stretched wide open willing to embrace.
All who claim the name of Christ, right? Well, and of course that goes far beyond Religious even issues even. That's a that's the drift of thinking in the world today. It's the whole idea behind, you know, what we the notion that nothing is really certain.
So we shouldn't be dogmatic about anything. It's okay to believe whatever makes you feel good. But don't say that anybody else is wrong about anything and that's why we're at a point where you know. Somebody can say I believe I'm a dog born in a man's body.
And you're supposed to end that you know. You believe it too for for the sake of not injuring this man who who self identifies as it as a puppy.
This is the thing that escapes people that work or that they just deliberately refused to. To realize is plainly there in Scripture is that Christ and his Apostles and the Authors of Scripture the men that were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit.
They all were very serious about doctrinal aberrance aberrancies and people who drifted from what the Apostles doctrine was. This was not a trivial matter and and kindness and gentleness and.
Irenic character did not trump teaching at any point. In fact, that is that is the central theme of one of the shortest, but most important John and John is writing of course John was the one apostle.
John is often known as the Apostle. That's what Jesus called it. And there's a there's stress throughout the gospel of John and all three and yet and he's writing second John to a woman who was apparently Known for her hospitality and she she would it seems a house and toward to itinerant Men who so what do I do when someone came of Christ, but he teaches a different doctrine and here's how John answered her.
This is from 2nd John verse verses 10 and 11 if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching Do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked work.
So he's saying to her look if you house and encourage and and even even greet. He's talking there about a honor them or encourage them in any way. Then you actually become a partaker in their wickedness worse wick of all human pursuits.
And we think how wonderful these religious types are all. False religion is the worst of all evils, right?
Yeah, that's why I'm very hesitant when I when I hear people like Bill Maher Blaming religion for the ills that plague the world and many Christians and conservatives will say oh, no, you're wrong Mr. Maher, I'm not too quick to join with those Christian and conservative voices Opposing what he's saying.
The problem is that Bill Maher would include Christianity true Biblical Christianity in that group, but but he's very right when he says that religion Is a is probably one of the major things that has caused evil in this planet, yeah, he's right.
He's exactly right. In fact, the only thing the only worse than The only thing that's down in the direction. He wants to go with it, right? But he's absolutely right in what he's Brown and you can see that.
And of course, there are things that are Religions that are not identified as religions. I.
Mean even even me like secularism. A.
Secular humanism is one climate climate. Yeah. All right. Yeah.
Doctrines of demons.
Well.
Let's move to a even more controversial issue when it comes to this whole area is What is the? Evangelical Christian to do with our dear friend Billy Graham. You will be quickly vilified and ostracized and viewed as a nut or a.
Cultic.
Pharisee if you Criticize Billy Graham in any way in the wrong circles. Or in the wrong company. I remember years ago. I was at a Christian function and dared to criticize the Billy Graham Association primarily because of the rampant Ecumenism that was taking place where a Roman Catholics and liberal Protestants and so on were being Invited to participate in the Crusades.
Not to be in the audience at the Crusades. But to be on the platform of the Crusades. How are we to? View this. Because it's more than just a man. It's a phenomenon. Because of the fact that he has in many respects Demonstrated many Christlike characters and has as far as anyone knows been totally free from Scandal in regard to sexuality and finances and so on.
So there's many things to admire about this man. But what what can you say about this?
Really dangerous ecumenism that has become a blueprint for.
Evangelicalism. Yeah, and and to be clear you do have to appreciate Billy Graham for his reputation as someone who is free from any kind of scandal or You know the sort of gross hypocrisy that you see nightly on Christian television.
He was never when he preached the gospel It at least he did preach the gospel. It was a full of his preaching wasn't sophisticated. You give him credit for those things. But I think you have to say when you look at the effect of doubt lots of people who is evangelistic were Indisputable that he weakened the stance of evangelicalism completely and and often like you said on the plot show an interest you have known I think one of this idea that we the need for precision in our teaching and our theater make the evangelical movement reflected in Christianity Today magazine and their drift to think one of the One of the guys who got the but not a huge fan of his philosophy of ministry.
In fact, I'm I'm Inclined to be very critical of it. And I think a lot of what is wrong With the evangelical move combined with the fact as you said be to disagree publicly with something Billy Graham had done or said.
Well, let me just ask. You're saying you believe it started with Billy Graham. Yet many I've talked to including myself would take it back even further and say that it was more like Charles Finney who started it.
Yeah, I mean you're right about that. And you could also say that DL Moody was a contributor to the trend but I you know Graham was the first one who who included Roman Catholics in okay, you know into the mix and preach a version of the gospel that managed to you know.
Go by the leading Roman Catholic ears without in any way challenging what they taught or believe. Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Yeah, no, and what. In what sense were you speaking of Finney? I know that he had a false gospel.
Was any any was in some ways worse because he didn't get the gospel, right? He he was a Pelagian Legion, I think he truly understood the gospel and and all that. And and I mentioned Moody. I should explain that as well.
He had a sort of ecumenical tendency. Very similar to Billy Graham's but the Moody Bible Institute, which is my alma mater and I don't want to be too critical. They went liberal. Bible Institute really was the influence of RA Torrey Moody's Ecumenical ten.
Billy Graham, I think looked at all that and said, you know Take the barriers off and go full bore ecumenical. We can get bigger audiences that way. We'll reach a bigger constituency that way. It'll give us more influence and more hearing and it doesn't matter if we compromise a little bit.
If it means more people are going to hear the gospel I mean, I think his motives were we're not utterly sinister. I think he wanted more people to hear the gospel and his pragmatic sense of what works.
Told him that would be a good thing to do and but the effect of it has been steadily over the years and it's not. That many years, you know, I think he started ecumenical evangelism including Catholics.
It's sometime in the 1950s. We're talking less than 70 years ago and and now look at where we are where the president of Fuller Seminary is. Saying, you know, you're theology prop even if there's a question polytheistic or orthodoxy and and it Today is as yeah.
And we'll be picking up right where we left off when we return. After this station break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
We do have a couple of people who have already written questions and we'll get to you as soon as possible. So don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.
Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Who am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.
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This is Chris Zarnes and if you've just tuned us in for the last hour and the next hour to come. Our guest today is Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you. Which is the radio television and publishing ministry of dr. John MacArthur?
Today we have been discussing a theme Mormons are brothers or a mission field. And it's actually a much larger issue than that. It has to do with why? Evangelicals are becoming more and more aggressively ecumenical.
Even with those that deny the very gospel or even deny monotheism. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris arms in at gmail .com. Chris arms in a gmail .com before I go to a couple of our listeners who have already Written in questions.
I just want to remind you that our friends at P and R publishing also known as Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing who are the newest sponsors of iron sharpens iron radio? They wanted me to let you know that the their pastors retreat That they are holding in cooperation with the Alliance of confessing Evangelicals is taking place May 9th through 11th and Harvey Cedars Conference Center on the Jersey Shore in New Jersey.
Dan Doriani and David Powelson are two of the speakers at this Pastors retreat. Both men have been guests on iron sharpens iron and if you want more details on attending this pastors retreat Titled the faithful shepherd go to Alliance net org Alliance net org and click on Events at the top of the page and that will list.
You'll be taken to a list of a whole bunch of events, but scroll down to the faithful shepherd Conference or pastors retreat May 9th through 11th. I also want to remind you That the iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon is being held a week from tomorrow.
That's Thursday April 28th at the beautiful and recently renovated Thornwald mansion of quite a historic building here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania dating back to 1909. I believe it was once a mansion that was the site of lavish entertainment of national politicians celebrities and societies elite and We are as far as we know according to the current owner We are the first Christian group to have a meeting in there at least for the purpose of Spreading the gospel and of of enlightening and educating pastors and entreating pastors to a wonderful time of fellowship relaxation and edification and this is all free of charge.
You'll get free lunch. You'll get not only a message by David Wood who is an expert on Islam David has debated Muslims all over the world and is probably one of the most thoroughly knowledgeable apologists in the area of Islam today a convert from atheism to Christianity but you'll also be hearing a word from Pennsylvania State Representative Stephen Bloom who is a very strong Bible-believing Christian unashamed of the gospel Has an unwavering commitment to his Christian faith.
That he does not hide in public, which is a refreshing thing to see and hear. He's been a guest on my program a couple of times and.
So.
Also every pastor that attends there is going to be leaving with a heavy sack of books that have been donated by publishers from all over the United States and the United Kingdom and In fact our guest today Phil Johnson made sure that our Pastors in attendance are getting a book.
Can you tell us about that book Phil?
It's John MacArthur's latest major book. Sounds like a great conference to it. Yeah, I wish you would in fact.
I would love for have you as the speaker at one of our future, you know.
If I didn't have a looming deadline, I'd be there. I can tell you it's worth it for the books and the meal alone. Yeah, it sounds like it and not only that but the messages. So.
Yes, and if you want more information on that email me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you are a pastor or a man in ministry leadership. And I'm including deacons. I'm including people who are running a parachurch organizations and so on.
Email me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. You have to RSVP by this Saturday. And if you know anybody that either is in Carlisle, Pennsylvania or is willing to travel there who is Can be identified as a man in leadership.
Send them over to me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and have them register for the luncheon. So we hope to see you there. We're looking forward to it we have.
A.
Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan. He says what are your thoughts on? Cobelligerence such as Evangelical leaders signing the ECT document. Well, that's. I wonder if Jeff really knew the answer to that question before.
But in fact, dr. MacArthur and the late D. James Kennedy and RC Sproul did a wonderful Presentation opposing the ECT document. Yeah back to when it first came out. On the John Ankerberg program, I believe that was yeah.
Yeah, you know the concept of cobelligerence Sounds good and benign. The idea is look we agree with Mormons and Catholics on the great moral Debates that are taking place today. We we they would agree with our position that Homosexuality is Immoral and so why not?
Become Cobelligerence with these link up on the issues We agree with and combine our political clout and our voices to agree on by our efforts Evangelicals have been doing for 30 or 40 years now, and I was wary of it from the start I'm more opposed to the idea than ever because what invariably happens is you Mormons and whatnot to deal with these political issues and in order to hold the Coalition together you have to downplay or silence your convictions on the central issues of Scripture the gospel because if you if you want to make the gospel clear and and plain you're going to have to stress be offended by that or disagree in it in a Argument has always been that there's nothing more Important about who Christ is and what the gospel is and if we can't agree on those things actually counterproductive and And confusing to unite on lesser matters just for the sake of political clout and if you look back over the past 30 years efforts you have to say that all of the combined cloud of Catholics Mormons evangelicals Jewish people all of us who oppose abortion hasn't really so far Gotten us any traction in overturning abortion laws, you know, right so weakening of the evangelical movement's Theological stand in the 70s.
There just wasn't the sort of willingness to All evangelical attitude has changed and not only that but what the world thinks we're saying is grossly confused if you ask the typical Secular listener and the message that comes out of the evangelical mainstream for the past couple of decades.
What is evangelicalism? What does it mean to be an evangelical? They're going to describe it to you in political terms. They see us Primarily as a political block. Yeah, right. They don't hear our theological message because We've been downplaying it.
Yeah, I can even remember being on a train and recognizing that the local United Methodist pastor in my town was on the seat right across the aisle from me and I introduced myself to him. I told him I told him that I knew and was friends with a Evangelical United Methodist pastor in a neighboring town.
Was wondering if he knew this pastor and his response was Well, there are. There's a divide amongst United Methodists. There are some that are more of.
Bill Clinton type and there are some that are more of the Jerry Falwell or actually he said more of the George Bush type. That's what he said some of who are the more of the Bill Clinton type and some that are more of the George Bush type.
I would be more of the Bill Clinton type. I mean he was. He wasn't even using Christian terminology or biblical terminology. Yeah.
About politics right, and so I thought that was quite it's the wrong message to be sending the world frankly and. And now in this election year in particular When you've got the perception is that the evangelical movement is pretty solidly behind Donald Trump who is you know a more what can I say this?
I mean you you're broadcasting to people with New York values. Morally speaking he is as odious as any of the Democratic Candidates, I mean just politics aside regardless of what his political views are.
Yes on a personal level here's a man who boasts about his adulteries who acts like a six-year-old in his interactions with people he disagrees with. Nothing about him that a Christian ought to look at and admire and say this is who I want to be our leader and yet.
The message the the world gets from evangelicals is that we think he might possibly be the answer our culture needs.
It's shameful. It's shameful. Yeah, and I I have never been Attacked of course in writing and I'm speaking about. I've never been attacked more viciously in my Christian Life since becoming a born-again believer in the 80s by other Christians.
Like I have been after posting anything negative on the Internet about Donald Trump I've been utterly amazed and taken aback by even.
Theologically reformed people yeah, I had the same experience. I I don't normally say anything about politics and my comments about Donald Trump weren't political. It's about his character. It's about how he acts and and and particularly about his casual attitude towards his own adultery.
While he's saying I'm the greatest of all Christians, but he says I've never had to ask forgiveness from God. This is so Anti-christian and forget the politics of it. I don't care what his politics are and I commented on that and just a blast of resistance from You know Christian people on the Internet, and I'm thinking you know it's odd.
I could say any number of Theologically controversial things and never get that sort of passionate Response and and so it shows you that Evangelicals are very very passionate about politics. But they really don't care about doctrine and and that's why I say the church today really is at a worse state than.
Now I could be wrong, but I think Abraham Kuyper coined the phrase cobelligerence may be wrong.
You may have you know he was a Dutch reformed guy who was you know in my view probably too involved in politics. He became the The Prime Minister of Holland.
He he led a movement that and those cases Calvinists with him theonomists today that Christ is Lord of all culture and so Christian should be involved in six is Is a realm that we need to sort of. Holland did a lot of good things in fact I've got some of his books.
And and he was a great theologian as well of Holland today. And then ask yourself did all of that energy that the the Dutch Calvinists put into politics a hundred years ago. Really do Holland any good?
Well I guess according to those who love smoke and pot it did.
But.
Having said all that Aren't there areas where you believe? that there should rightly be some kind of interaction and cooperation between Between true born-again Bible-believing Christians and those who are outside of our Theology but have some kind of common goal in the in society like for instance if you vote the likelihood is that you are very often voting for somebody who's not even a Christian at all even if even if they profess to be and And unless you become like an Amish person or some other group that does not get involved in Any way shape or form with the political arena aren't you in some ways being involved with co-belligerence?
Well yeah, except. I don't like that term because I think there's an agenda with those who use it. There's no question that I mean that we're. I think the Amish approach is is wrong Paul says to the Corinthians look I'm not asking you Absent ourself from I'm not suggesting that there's anything Sinful about voting or being involved in politics and particularly if that's what God has called you.
But what I am saying is don't let the don't let political issues or political strategies Become the priority message in your life over the gospel if if anything you're doing in politics. It becomes an incentive for you to tone down the gospel or back away from Mentioning Christ, then you're doing it wrong and that happens all the time.
I mean Christians in politics even the best Christians in politics put them on the spot and ask him why do you oppose? Homosexuality and they will try to give you a lot of humanistic arguments and philosophical arguments about This or that or the issue pornography just recently came up so now we oppose pornography because For health reasons, you know, you know, but not moral reasons and see as Christians.
We have to say none of the morality of this is important as well. We oppose Homosexuality because it is contrary to the design. He is our creator and our Lord and therefore we're accountable to him for our fundamental morality and You know, that's why homosexuality and I think Christians get the message upside down and actually we become Ashamed of the gospel he would never do and.
We do have I'm not sure what our listener Jeff and Clinton Township means by this because it's just Two words, it's or three words. It's molar at BYU.
Yeah, I know what he means. I guess Al Moller visited Brigham Young University and yeah, he spoke there about I guess four years ago.
Yeah, okay, and I know that Ravi Zacharias did as well. In fact, Richard Moo was the one that introduced Ravi Zacharias at that event. Now should a Christian. I didn't I didn't hear. What?
Al Moller said he gave them the gospel. I appreciate that about Al Moller. I don't know that I would have You know encouraged him to accept what they did in John MacArthur's office trying to spin that into a PR coup to imply that John MacArthur's having brotherly conversations with Mormons.
It was predictable that on the Mormon side. They would take Al Moller's appearance and try to spin it as if you know. He's he's pursuit. I listen to that message and he did give the gospel. In fact, I think it was in that message where he he made a statement that I thought was Kind of profound to agree on the abortion issue and certain things in our culture that we're all being persecuted for and he says we May go to jail together, but he says I don't believe we're going to go to heaven together.
Wow. And he gave him the gospel. So he was that clear about it, and I appreciate that about Moller and although again if if you had asked me beforehand, do I think it's a good thing for him to go there?
I would have said so you you're not in favor of Accepting invitations like that. Even if you could be bold like Moller was well, I wouldn't make a general rule about it. No. It it depends on the nature of the invitation and What my concern there is I think the Mormon Church in recent years?
Has a pretty clear track record of trying to spin events like that into public relations. Right for themselves and I would if I accepted that invitation and and under certain circumstances I can envision where I might.
If I could do something or say something or or guarantee that they are not going to cloud. They're not going to use the fact that I spoke with regard to the question of whether Mormonism is truly Christian or not and and there's just no doubt about that with.
Without Moller you can listen to the message. He's very clear that he and he was clear with them that he does not regard Mormonism as for that. I wouldn't be. Even though maybe I wouldn't have done the same thing that he did.
Well, what about Robbie Zechariah? Did you hear what he said there? Yeah, I didn't listen to his whole message. I read some critiques of it and it did sound to me like he was a little bit waffly like he wasn't as bold I'll Moller was and making it clear to the people in attendance that he did not regard I don't know.
I didn't listen to the message. That's with the.
We do have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania. Who says I have heard that Franklin Graham is Much more biblically faithful and consistent than his father. Is this true? The only thing that I can say is that I know that Franklin Graham at least highlighted the fact that Muslims were involved in the terrorist attacks at 9 -11 on 9 -11 and was much more aggressive at Speaking out against that specifically as a Muslim terrorist attack, but I've been very disappointed by his accolades being Lifted up before Popes and him saying publicly that Pope John Paul 2 is certainly in heaven and that he was a One of the greatest Christian heroes of the 20th century and so on.
What what do you have to say about?
You know, I haven't listened that closely to Franklin Graham to really be able to speak intelligently on it. It has been my impression that he is something less of an ecumenist and less of a and there have been times when I've read things he said and heard things he said and He said then there are other times when I think why in the world would he say that?
So again, I I'm not an expert on her or endorse him.
Yeah I could just say that I heard him out of his own mouth after John Paul to died. Saying that he knew with certainty that he was in heaven and that he was a one of the greatest heroes of Christianity in the 20th century.
So obviously that's very disappointing to say the least.
And it is I think you have to say that that kind of thing is the fruit of his father's Ecumenism, I think you'd probably discover if you could pull People who are faithful in their attendance at evangelical churches.
I'm not talking about peripheral Evangelicals like usually come up in the polls if you took the core of the evangelical movement the most faithful churchgoers and pulled them I fear you'd find the majority of them Would share that perspective that you know Catholics they're believers just like we are they may have a different denomination.
But and see all that has shifted Dramatically, I remember vividly when when I first Grace you had a partnership for years with the Martin Lloyd-Jones Recordings Trust in England and When I first began to talk to The Lloyd-Jones the leadership of the trust over there One of the questions they asked me was you know where we stood on?
Ecumenism and the the drift of the ecumenical movement of particularly partnerships with Roman. I told him at the time this was like 1980 in the 1980s. It was a probably around 88 or 89. And I told them at the time I didn't know of any leading evangelicals who other than Chuck Colson who were in favor of Catholic evangelical date on that and think either things have Dramatically shifted since the late 90s the late 80s naive at the time.
And I think probably both things are true that I was a little naive I that I I assumed most American evangelicals were as Wary of ecumenism as I was hold that fantasy anymore because it seems to me that today's evangelicals are maybe even more Enthusiastic about ecumenical alarm in the late 1960s.
When did you come to Christ?
1971 okay. See. I came to Christ in 74 so, you know, we're about the same age Relatively speaking and it seems to me overall that even back then. Even though the problems existed, of course, I admit I was one most naive people then.
I had no religious background hardly, you know before that.
The understanding of the gospel has Really diminished since then also back then when I came to Christ. There was a lot of easy believism and stuff. But at least people knew that, you know, Jesus died for sinners because we all sinned and you know, we were culprits, but in today's Evangelicalism we're the victims and.
Well, man's really nuts. I don't know if people really believe that people that men are basically sinful anymore. Even in the churches. So there's so much that has changed That you would expect our Associations to change with it because those things aren't as important anymore as they used to be.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's just the speed with which it's changed has. Absolutely. Yes, you know. Back to this article by Richard Moore. One of the things he implies is that just singing a song in praise of Christ is is a sufficient Expression of faith in order for somebody to be saved, you know a new sacrament.
Wow.
So, you know, I think he'd be happy to hear and see. I don't take that perspective at all. If I walked into a church where I knew heresy was taught and the gospel was denied and heard them Borrowing one of the great hymns of the faith and singing it it would irritate me.
It wouldn't encourage me to think that you know, here's a bunch of people who deny the gospel and yet they're hypocritically mouthing words. That you know, they don't believe that that I'm not the least bit encouraged by that.
But I think I think Richard Moore's perspective would be wrongs that so they can't be all bad. Yeah.
Yeah, I remember years ago attending my nephew's confirmation Ceremony at his Catholic Church. I was not even a believer then but I can remember them singing Amazing Grace This Roman Catholic Church. Oh.
Yeah, I recently attended an unbeliever's funeral and it was the same thing. This guy was into All sorts of New Age stuff and everything and not not at all. No indication ever that he was a believer. Yeah, and you know, they sang Amazing Grace and and I thought it it's it's a shame that in his lifetime He didn't embrace the meaning of that song, but you can't be encouraged by that.
I mean the one of the most Condemnations from God in the Old Testament is These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Yeah, and we have to have that we have to keep that perspective that God hates lip service religion.
You know, you know and to be encouraged because people who deny the gospel are singing hymns. They have sound doctrine in them is is backward thinking utterly backward thinking. Maybe I'm passionate about that because I actually grew up going to Sunday school.
And it was a Methodist Church where in Sunday school. We were taught basically don't take the Bible too. Seriously. These are myths and Moral tales that we can learn the morality from but don't don't believe yet, then we'd sing some of the great hymns of the faith and And I would mouth the words as well and until I became a believer.
I had no clue what I mean.
I think the most graphic example of that that really illustrated it was the fact that they played Amazing Grace on the bagpipes at mr. Spock's funeral.
I mean, what did they know about that song really? Yeah, we all know that spot was Pelagian. Anyway, we got to go to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.
Chris Ornson at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us with a question Send your email now because we're running out of time. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages. So don't go away.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes in if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes. Our guest has been Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you Which is the radio television and publishing ministry of dr John MacArthur and we are discussing basically.
Ecumenism gone wild is really the broader theme of what we're talking about. It started out as a discussion on Mormons brothers or mission field. If you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We have a listener. We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. Who says in regard to Billy Graham Is it more that what he does after he preaches the gospel to undermine it is more of the problem with him?
Or is it an actual doctrinal? aberrancy that he believes.
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think so. I I I don't know that I have ever heard him preaching. Say anything that was her while he's preaching. Say anything I would disagree with. It's just stuff between you know like when the famous interview that he did with Robert Shuler when he he seemed to be encouraging Shuler and.
It's not the only time he's. And I think that that under obviously undermines the gospel that he preaches. And What he does preach is Simple enough. I don't want to say simplistic because I think you listen to Billy Graham.
Normally in an evangelistic message you are going to hear the gospel. And he doesn't shy he wouldn't necessarily touch on the issue of the exclusivity of Christ. And that would be my big question. Conscious faith in Christ is Faith in Christ in a state of confusion and undermine Woody.
And I think it's a good yeah.
He seemed to be very clear in that interview with Shuler that he believes in the the pluralistic Understanding that Christ is necessary for salvation, but faith in him on this earth is not. Right that that seemed to be clearly what he was saying because he was talking about people almost unconsciously having faith in Christ who were Adherents to other religions non-christian religions, right?
And there are people who that's exactly what they teach. And he seemed to be affirming that that you know saying well.
Whether the whether the.
Islamic guy knows it or not the one he has faith in is Christ, you know, and so therefore that's good enough. I that's so far from how Christ taught and what the Bible says that. I. It boggles the mind.
It boggles the mind and it is a matter of deep concern for a few decades there in the 20th century. You just could not raise questions about Billy Graham or his teaching or practices. He was a evangelical icon and not to be touched.
But I think because he's said so many of these things, you know in a little easier to be Oprah him.
Yeah, in fact when Larry King specifically and Larry King for those of our listeners who don't know he is married to a Mormon woman but he asked Billy Graham specifically, how do you feel about the Mormons and.
His answer was I have no problem with those people now, obviously. Some and people did put a spin on that trying to defend him. Well, I don't have a problem with Mormon people. It's the theology, you know, I mean, come on.
Give me a break. Everybody knew what that was supposed to imply. He was putting a seal of approval on.
Mormonism. Yeah, but like I said, I think it's a deliberate ambiguity. I I'm not sure I would find it hard to believe that Billy Graham really thinks that it's fine and dandy. If you're a Mormon that's close enough to the Christian faith that you should be okay.
I mean may believe that. I don't know but that's definitely the impression He left and the fact that he didn't make it clear had to be intentional. He's not an ignorant man, right?
Well, what one of the ways that I Think that what he what Billy Graham has said that undermines the truth that he is proclaimed is Perfectly found in his message at the National Cathedral after 9-eleven he gave a gospel presentation to a mixed group of people representing many different religions, but he completely diffused the power of his proclamation of that gospel.
Because but just by a simple phrase that he said before he gave the gospel. He said Now I'm going to speak to the Christians here in the audience. This is for the Christians which completely diffused the power of that message to the Muslims the Hindus the Sikhs the Wiccans and all these other people that were there and that's why they gave him a standing ovation.
Yeah, if he had told them they needed Christ and that they needed to put their trust in his death and resurrection That would have the the reaction would have been entirely different I'm convinced I Don't think that they would have given him a standing ovation as he as he left the podium that day if he had Purposely and obviously given the gospel to those of other religions.
Yep. Yep. We do have let's see here we have. Where was it? I lost it here. Oh Okay, we have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who is asking are you saying that Roman Catholics and Mormons are all going to hell.
If you want to answer that Phil, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it like that because I don't know I mean obviously Jesus said faith as much as a mustard seed Will save you and I think there are a lot of people who are in the Catholic system Who maybe maybe identify themselves as Catholics, but and the fact that they've actually read Scripture.
It's possible conceivable to me that someone in the Catholic Church Who's a member of the Catholic Church might actually believe enough of the gospel to be redeemed. But I will say this if they understand Catholic teaching and that's what they believe if they're good Catholics.
Then they've rejected the gospel because the official the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church. Their mere declaration is that if you believe that the righteousness of that you can be justified before God Solely on the grounds of Christ's righteousness, then the Catholic Church says you're anathema.
So you're not permitted to trust in Christ alone and believe that salvation is by grace through faith alone. The Catholic Church you have to add your own works in the form of Observing the sacraments and kind and there's a treasury of merit from Mary and all the Saints right and all that merit from from yourself and for Mary and the Saints has to supplement the righteousness of Christ if you're going to Be redeemed and so for them Justification is a long process.
It's really never complete until you finally get out of purgatory. That's why they have to have purgatory because they don't believe That you have you you you need a perfect righteousness to get into heaven.
Jesus was very clear about that and the Catholic Church doesn't believe that you can acquire a perfect righteousness by imputation and so you have to Supplement the righteousness of Christ either here on earth or you get to heaven that that's a rejection of shall not come in or in Christ Jesus and You can't really I'm saying is not a comment about every single person who identifies himself as a Catholic.
What I'm saying is about Catholic Church teaches is Antithetical to the gospel and therefore if you believe that you've rejected the gospel, right? I had one.
Humorous.
Anecdote I have to say about that whole issue is when dr. James R. White was debating father, Mitch Pacwa and During the cross-examination period father Pacwa Asked James white. Do you? consider me your brother in Christ and James just simply put well, if you are trusting in the gospel as Trent defines it I cannot embrace you as my brother because there's no hope in that gospel and the Council of Trent clearly anathematizes those Who embrace the gospel as I believe it to be true from the scriptures, right?
They not only anathematize those who believe in justification by faith. They anathematized anybody who believes. Settled assurance is possible in this life. If you are if you have assurance of your salvation if you really believe you are going to heaven then in the Catholic Church.
You're anathematized right. And then when when James White said that the Apostle Paul when he used that term Was clearly speaking about those being condemned to hell and father Pacwa said yes. But how does the Roman Catholic Church define that term and James said well if you have a different Definition in the Apostle Paul, you've got a real problem there.
So obviously you didn't answer.
Catholicism also encourages what they call implicit faith. It's a ignorant kind of faith where basically you don't need to know what the church believes. You just have to believe that the church is right, right?
And so they're actually encouraging people to to have this implicit faith in what they don't understand in a way I. That's why I think the Catholic Church is probably Loaded with people who have a minimal understanding of Catholic doctrine because you don't have to understand what the church teaches.
You just have to affirm it.
And in.
In the grace of God if some of those people trust Christ Alone for their salvation because they're ignorant of what their church teaches then.
Yeah, I like to remind my Catholic friends who will accuse me of being an anti Catholic bigot. When these conversations arise, I remind them that long before I was born the Council of Trent condemned Me for what?
I believe the gospel to be so you guys started this argument here and you know, therefore and another thing that is just confusing to the mix is That you have a Pope who's the most liberal Pope that they've ever had but even Popes before him muddied the waters and so did Vatican to but the difference is that That a an opinion of a Pope is not binding dogma is and the Council of Trent is Catholic dogma right, and that cannot change in fact as liberal as The current Pope is he has never renounced the Council of Trent nor can he without toppling the whole doctrine of papal infallibility?
Going back to that same question when the the are Mormons all going to hell, well, I I can even remember a An anecdote that James White told about a lady who was Mormon and James was bringing to her attention their beliefs of Mormons becoming gods and many other things that she and she was shocked by these things.
It turns out that the lady was a Baptist convert to Mormonism and she converted without knowing what they actually taught as far as those really Outlandish and extremely heretical and blasphemous.
Teachings, so I'm a snap the willingness of people to nurture their own ignorance Absolutely astonishes me particularly when it gets to the spiritual matters, which really are are the most important things we believe and know.
Why would you want to exist in ignorance, but a lot of people do and. So I wouldn't say, you know that every Roman Catholic I meet I'm certain they're going to hell but I will say that every Roman Catholic I meet I'm certain they don't understand the gospel because if they did if If they really thoroughly understood it, they wouldn't but sure.
Well, how do you. How do you?
View the the excuse that I remain in the Catholic Church to be a witness to them and and even I know a person who Is a convert to evangelical Christianity from Mormonism who remained in the LDS cult for 20 years and he said That he remained there much for the same reason and also because he was fearful of losing his wife and children.
He admits now that that was wrong, but How do you buy that argument that I'm there to be a voice of the truth? That's why I remain there.
Yeah, I mean you hear that all the time. I I was as I said, I was sort of in that denomination who's doubt that. But they stay in for that reason. They think they they could reach people or maybe turn the denomination around and all I can say is in the history of the church I can't think of one example where that's ever happened where a denomination that became a part.
So it just doesn't happen and it's naive to think disobedient. Also know that when somebody says something like that He's not a real student of the Old Testament because I can't imagine Someone trying to give the excuse to God that he hangs around the the Baal temple So that he can minister to Baal worshippers.
That's a very good point.
If Elijah didn't take that approach then I'm not going to either. And and you could even say in the.
New Testament. Well, I'm a Judaizer. Not really because I agree with the Judaizers. Well, that's actually a very good example.
I mean and in fact J. Gershom Machen had a very good observation on that. He says when you analyze the difference between Paul and The Judaizers the it's really a simple difference in the order Saludis do do good works.
Necessarily precede justification or follow it. That's the whole gist of their disagreement on one point of the order Saludis and yet he anathematized them because That was an error that actually changed the whole meaning of the gospel and and You know eliminated grace.
It's the very same error frankly that that you have deeply embedded in the Roman Catholic system. You can just imagine can't you that if Paul were ministering today, there would be hordes of Evangelical leaders admonishing him not to be so hard on the Judaizers.
Look how much stuff they have, right? Why can't you make common cause with him? Why can't you encourage what they have right instead of rebuking what they get wrong because it's only this one little point that they get wrong.
That would be the argument.
We do have an anonymous listener who says aren't you turning the simplicity of the gospel into? Salvation by theological precision.
That's a common argument and no because I think the gospel is very simple. But like I like I said, it was that was Paul's argument as well. It was it depends on the on the on and if you're attacking justification by faith you're attacking the linchpin of gospel truth and the whole and and so yeah, you do have to make an assessment you can't Anathematize everybody for every little disagreement.
I mean I have lots of Presbyterian friends and we disagree on the mode and meaning of baptism. I wouldn't anathematize them because that isn't a issue that goes to the very heart of the gospel. So there has to be a hierarchy of truths going back to the original thing.
We talked about There has to be a hierarchy of truth. There has to be that some some truths are Essential and primary and Paul speaks of that in first Corinthians first Corinthians 15 when he talks about the matters of first importance and if if those issues the matters that are of first importance are attacked or compromised then we have to draw the line at That point and scriptures very clear on what some of those things are.
It can't be a different Christ. And it can't be a different gospel somebody who proclaims a different gospel have fellowship with you. Just can't we're forbidden by scripture from doing that. It doesn't mean if you disagree with me on You know, we ought to observed like that without and honestly despite the fact that people love to point out that there are hundreds and maybe thousands of Protestant denominations historic Protestants evangelical Protestants who centuries done a Remarkable job of unity with one another despite there We do worship the same Christ and we embrace one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.
It's when you want to knock down the the basic the fundamental barriers that make us evangelical. You've reached the point where we can't We can't celebrate the faith of one another because what you believe in what I believe are so that we we simply can't affirm one.
And we're out of time and I know that grace to use website is gty .org. And what's the website for the Spurgeon Archive?
Spurgeon .org, but I you know, I've turned that over to Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. So they run it now.
Well, I want to thank you so much Phil for being on the program and I look forward to your return. Thanks for having me and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions on the next. Iron sharpens iron radio.