March 6, 2024 Show with Zach Maxcey on “The Blessed Hope: Its Nature & Implications”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day of March 2024.

Before I introduce my guest for today and our topic, I want to remind you that I will be the emcee for the next

Grace Christian Academy of Long Island fundraising gala. That's going to be held next

Friday, March 15th at 7 p .m. at the Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin, Long Island, New York.

And many of our listeners may immediately remember the name Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin because that's where I began the decade -long debate series known as the

Great Debates on Long Island featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Roman Catholic opponents.

The first several of the debates were held at the Coral House before we outgrew it and had to move to a larger facility.

But if you would please try to attend this, not only for the benefit of Grace Christian Academy, which is a wonderful classical education

Christian school on Long Island, but also to see me.

I would love to see as many of my listeners there as possible, those that I already have met.

And also I would love to see some of you face -to -face for the very first time. Once again, that's going to be held next

Friday, Friday of next week, March 15th, 7 p .m. at the

Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin, Long Island. And if you want more information about this event and to register, go to their website

GCALI .com. That's G -C -A for Grace Christian Academy, L -I for LongIsland .com.

G -C -A -L -I .com forward slash GALA, G -A -L -A.

And you will have all the information that you need to register for this event.

But today, I am thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest.

His name is Zach Maxey, and Zach is president of Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, and he's also an elder at Grace Covenant Church in Portsmouth, Rhode Island.

Today, we're going to be addressing the blessed hope, its nature, and implications from Titus 2, verse 13.

And we're also going to be announcing the upcoming 2024 John Bunyan Conference to be held in Franklin, Tennessee next month.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Zach Maxey. Brother Chris, it's a pleasure to be back.

How are you doing? I'm doing wonderful, thanks be to God. Always better than I deserve. So, why don't you tell our listeners, for the sake of our listeners who have not yet heard you on the show, tell us about the

Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology. So, the

Institute, so, my fellow laborers and I, we refer to it as P -T -I -N -C -T, but the full is exactly what you spelled out, so Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology.

And it was basically born out of Providence Theological Seminary. So, back in 2007, the seminary

PTS, and that's where I graduated from with the Masters of Divinity, we found out that it was at the right time where it was difficult to have in -house students, and we found that we were competing with great institutions like Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and they were beginning to embrace what could be called

New Covenant Theology, but they've moved away from that term, embracing more progressive covenantalism.

So, they were coming from kind of the same theological, let's say, understanding that's in NCT from the likes of John Reisinger, and so these were gentlemen like Dr.

Peter Gentry, Dr. Stephen Wellum. And so, we found out that we discovered that we were competing against the likes and just with the resources, and then so we decided to close doors of the seminary, and Lord willing, if the conditions are right and he sees fit, we may open back up to be an educational institution.

But we shifted gears, so not to be working against institutions that are great, like Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and others that we would be very much in align with, but we would also try to partner with local churches that are either looking to know more about New Covenant Theology or our

New Covenant Theological Churches, as we might say, and just we've hosted many conferences, so conferences done in Texas and other places.

We have the main conference in Tennessee, and so it's carrying on this, what the

Dallas Council of Biblical Theology used to be, so back in decades ago, that my mentor,

Dr. Gary Long, carried on, and so he used to be the president of PTS, Providence Theological Seminary, and then handed it over to me for PTI.

So, the big thing is our mission is really to partner with like -minded folks in New Covenant Theology, partner with like -minded churches, also expand

New Covenant Theology, and just to highlight some distinctives, so we hold to New Covenant Theology, viewing it to be a middle road in between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, a via media or a middle way, as it's called, so we embrace certain elements of both systems, and yet we would have distinctives where we would differ in Christian love with our brethren on both sides.

And PTINCT also embraces what we would call Reformed Soteriology, so the doctrines of grace or Calvinism, and also

Baptist Ecclesiology. So, we partner with like -minded individuals, like -minded churches, we host the conference and the like, so.

Great. If anybody wants more details, go to PTINCT .org,

PTINCT .org. Now let our listeners know about Grace Covenant Church in Portsmouth, Rhode Island.

Yeah, so we have a small body of believers, so I'm one of the elders with our pastor,

Stephen Bailey, and so we took a hit after COVID where we had sadly some folks who decided not to return because just the ease of having, you know, the

Zoom sermons and having that ease kind of, it pulled some people away from us, so we're still a small body, we're looking to grow, inviting people constantly, we're on nine marks, but we're still meeting in our pastor's home, and so we're hoping that the

Lord will bless, and I occasionally fill in for the teaching when Pastor Steve needs a break or is away or things like that.

And if anybody lives in or near Portsmouth, Rhode Island, and you'd like to visit this church, go to Grace Covenant Church, P -O -R -T -S -R -I, for RhodeIsland .org.

That's Grace Covenant Church, P -O -R -T -S -R -I .org.

Now tell us about the upcoming John Bunyan Conference. So this year's

John Bunyan Conference, so the 2024 JBC, is going to be held

Sunday, April 14th, with the first message beginning at 7 o 'clock, and so that first message is going to be by Dr.

Ted Bear from MovieGuide .com, and he's going to be addressing the

Christian and the TV film industry, so how is a Christian supposed to navigate entertainment?

Is there a way that we can view movies and TV shows that are more glorifying to God and more edifying and more virtuous and more pious in terms of the

Christian faith? Then it will continue through Wednesday evening, so Wednesday, April 17th, 2024.

On Monday, we have speakers like Pastor Greg Van Court, he's the pastor at Dayspring in Austin, which is a

New Covenant church and one of the founding churches of Providence Theological Seminary. We also have several brethren from the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, many or two of whom

I've actually interacted with via email, but I've never met personally, but I have read some of their writings, so this is

Dr. Richard Lucas. He will be speaking on the hope for theological rapprochement among Calvinistic Baptists, So, focusing on what unites us and can we build bridges doctrinally with all the things that we do agree on that are not only the essentials of the

Christian faith, the hypostatic union, the Trinity, the inspiration of Scripture, we also agree on Baptist ecclesiology and reformed soteriology, so are there ways to come more in alignment doctrinally?

So, this would primarily be addressing progressive covenantalism slash

NCT with, say, 1689 Baptists. Later that evening, so Tuesday or Monday evening, sorry, from 7 to 8,

Pastor Blake White will be speaking on Romans 8, and the theme of this conference that I haven't mentioned before is the glorious hope of Christ in the new covenant, and the reason why the board wanted to focus on that message in particular was with everything going on and how interesting these times are in which we live and, you know, how many anxieties, you know, hang over our heads.

It's very easy to take our eyes off of the things of heaven and get distracted by these things, and so we as the board at PTI NCT wanted to have a message of encouragement for the church, so focusing on hope, so the hope in Christ that awaits us, and so Greg Van Court's going to be giving an overview, so he was on the program,

I believe, yesterday, so an overview of true hope, so what does the Bible say in the

Old Testament and the New Testament, and how has that worked forward in Christ? Later that evening, so Monday evening,

Pastor Blake White's going to be talking about the hope of the new creation in Romans 8, so where the creation yearns expectantly to be released from its bondage of decay, and we're like that because when the creation is liberated from its bondage of decay, we're going to be resurrected, and so that particular hope.

Tuesday, we have Dr. Brent Parker, so another one of the brothers from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he's going to be speaking of the hope of the new exodus, so of course, a very typological message going back to the original exodus and how it points forward to Christ, so not just a, of course, the

Israelites' exodus was from physical slavery and death and the tyranny of Pharaoh, whereas the new exodus in Christ is an exodus from sin, death, and the like.

Then we'll have Brother Rene Frey, who is from Canada, he's going to be flying down and speaking on the incarnate

God as our glory and our eschatological hope, and so with each of these messages, it's just going to take that focus on the virtue of hope and then what it means for the

Christian life. Pastor Gary George, who I believe has already been on the program this week, he's going to be speaking on near -death experiences and a false hope in another gospel, and I think what,

I haven't spoken with Gary at length about this, but I presume with all of the stories that come out about near -death experiences and folks who have written about these things, that really

God put a tug on his heart to actually address this, what's the biblical response to this, or do these stories match up with what is revealed in Scripture, and should we take them at face value, or how should we assess them?

Then I will be speaking, so Wednesday morning, on what you addressed earlier, so Titus 2 .13,

so the blessed hope, so referring to, of course, the return of Christ, and so its nature and its implications, so the nature of Christ's return and the implications specifically in that particular text, and then we'll have a question and answer panel where folks can actually send in questions to the church via email, or we actually do have a messaging function on the

PTI website, so if you are watching remotely, because Grace Church does have a

Ustream video where you can see the messages streamed live, if you're unable to physically attend the conference, you can actually write in with questions if you had those for that, and then we'll finish it off that evening with Pastor Bill Sasser talking about the hope of the

Proto -Evangelium, so Genesis 3 .15. Great, and if anybody wants more information about the conference, you can go to the same website that I originally mentioned earlier, which is ptinct .org,

ptinct .org, and I can say personally, having attended one of these conferences, well,

I've actually attended a number of them, because I began attending the original

John Bunyan conference, starting in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and then in New Rengal, Pennsylvania, from the late 1980s to the mid -1990s, and I had nothing but the most wonderful memories from those times of fellowship with the

Brethren there and edification, but as far as the new John Bunyan conference in Franklin, Tennessee, I've been to one of those and actually had the honor and privilege to moderate the

Q &A with the audience, which was a very wonderful and memorable experience for me, and I have interviewed most of the speakers, either recently or in the past, there was only three.

A third of them that I have not yet had the privilege to interview, Dr. Brent Parker, Dr. Richard Lucas, and Renee Frey, the others, all of the others

I have had on the program. But this subject at hand for us today is, as we already said,

The Blessed Hope, Its Nature and Implications, from Titus chapter 2, verse 13, and if you wouldn't mind reading that portion of scripture for our audience before we delve into it.

Absolutely. So I'll start in verse 11 of Titus 2 and then read through 14, and so it says in Titus 2, 11 to 14,

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self -controlled, upright, and in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great

God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness, and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Praise God. Well, what was it about this text that compelled you to say,

I have got to include this as a part of this conference coming up in April?

I speak predominantly, so a little of my background, I think this has been shared on previous programs, so when

I became a believer, it was in a Presbyterian church, but one of the youth mentors was a dispensationalist, and so I was getting kind of both covenant theology and dispensationalism at the same time, which was a little confusing, and so over the years that gradually got sorted out, and then

I was able to think in more consistent categories, because it was just kind of a blend. That sounds like Donald Gray Barnhouse's theology.

I think he was somewhere in the middle of both worlds with that, wasn't he? Yeah, if memory serves correct,

I believe he was. And so I mention that just because coming out of, let's call it a pseudo -dispensationalist, because I've never been a full dispensationalist, but I think all

Christians, as we look forward to the return of Christ, do have an interest in eschatology, and of course that can usually manifest itself in a very inordinate focus on charts and things like that, and having all of our ducks in a row and knowing exactly what's going to happen, and so I even went through that phase myself.

But what really struck me with this is—so my daytime job, in addition to the stuff with PTI, is

I teach at a classical Christian school, and although Aristotle is not necessarily addressing hope from a biblical perspective,

Aristotle describes in his rhetoric when he talks about different emotions and different virtues, elpis, which is hope, that it's just like memory looks back on things past, hope looks forward to the future.

And so depending on the nature of the hope and what the object of the hope is, it can fill us with confidence, it can fill us with assurance.

He would also describe this as empowering us. And so at least coming from that perspective,

I think we Christians can actually agree with Aristotle somewhat on a general basis there.

And so when we look forward to the return of Christ, which this passage calls the blessed hope, it fills us with confidence, it fills us with assurance, it takes our eyes off of the here and now and points them to heaven, where our focus should be.

Not that it should be, you know, figuring out what so often we see, okay, who is the

Antichrist? You know, when is the when is the return going to be in trying to calculate the date?

Because those are all foolish pursuits in many ways. But but to be ready.

And I think the emphasis of when Jesus talks about the blessed hope in other passages, so his return, the emphasis is always being ready for when he returns.

And in many of those contexts, whether it's in the Gospels. So, you know, Matthew 24,

Matt or Matthew 13. So he's talking about being ready and setting your.

Setting your focus on the things that God wants you to do when he returns. So not being an idle worker, but launching into the task.

And so what what is our task? Our task is to expand the kingdom of God. It's to preach the gospel.

To others around us and to expand the kingdom that way, if the Lord sees fit to to to regenerate them.

But it's also to, as this passage tells us, it's it's to actually it's to be motivation.

And so that's another area that I think we would generally agree with Aristotle. That it's it can provide a motivation or a confidence.

And in this way, the passage is actually telling us the grace of God has appeared. And the purpose of it is to instruct us and to train us.

To renounce ungodliness, worldly passions, to be self -controlled. And to live godly lives in the midst of a very evil age.

I mean, and all we have to do is turn on the TV or listen to the news to know how wicked our current age is.

It always seems like it's getting worse. And while we're doing that by God's grace and empowered by his

Holy Spirit, we're waiting expectantly for Christ's return. And we're supposed to be ready for that return.

In other words, living a godly life, pursuing him. And and then just waiting expectantly, preaching the gospel and expanding the kingdom.

And that's what we're supposed to be about. And I think very often we focus too much on the nature of the return itself and wanting to understand all of the aspects of the second coming.

And yet we miss some of these implications. Well, if we have this hope, as it as it says a little later on in the passage, those who have this hope purify themselves.

Those who have this hope seek godliness. Those who have this hope in them, the return of Christ, they live like they actually believe that he is returning.

So so I tell my students at school all the time, the test of whether you really believe what the scripture is saying is, are you living it?

And granted, living it imperfectly, because none of us, you know, walks perfectly with the Lord.

But but the measure of whether we truly believe what the scripture is telling us and what Christ is telling us, are we putting it into action, empowered by the

Holy Spirit and trusting God in faith? And so and so part of that, if we have this hope that he is going to return and we do as Christians.

And so we look forward to that. And because we believe he is returning, we're going to live accordingly, that he will find us doing what he has tasked us doing when he returns.

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, send in your email to Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We will be right back with Zach Maxey after these messages from our sponsors.

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We're now back with Zach Maxey, and we are not only promoting the upcoming

John Bunyan Conference, which is being held next month in Franklin, Tennessee, but we're also discussing the theme,

The Blessed Hope, Its Nature and Implications, taken from Titus 2, verse 13.

And did you want to complete your thought from before we went to the break, or do you want me to take a listener question?

Are you there? Yes, you can go ahead and take a listener question, that's fine.

So I was able to complete my thought. Okay, we have actually two questions from Alex in Orlando, Florida, and I'm going to give—I rarely do this, but since Alex happens to be the founder of a wonderful ministry that I want everybody to learn more about,

Vessels for Christ, I'll give his full name. Alex Wright of Orlando, Florida, who is with vesselsforchrist .org.

He has two questions. Number one, I have heard a Presbyterian brother say that New Covenant theology is heretical.

When he said this, it seemed that he was referencing how it was defined years ago.

Is there a distinction between New Covenant theology advocates years ago and ones now?

How would you deal with this charge if one of our Presbyterian brothers accused you of that?

So there is a book that I have. The name escapes me right now because I'm not in my office, but I do believe

I know the book. At least the author was believing that he was a Presbyterian author, so we're probably referring to the same one.

The name escapes me of the book and the author. But I would probably say this.

I think that N .C .T. So I'll answer this one of two ways.

So you have something more recent. So there was a brother, Steve Lair, and he ended up leaving

N .C .T. And so in one of his books, and I don't know if you actually believe this. I never met

Steve, but he actually proposed. So it was a question about the law.

And so how do we understand at least some advocates in N .C

.T. And N .C .T. is not monolithic on how we view which laws still apply.

Now, generally speaking, just to be fair to Steve, I would say that there is a group within N .C

.T. that believes that all Old Testament law is canceled. And so it no longer applies.

Unless it's repeated in the New Covenant. Yes, unless it's repeated in the New Covenant.

So all of those 613 laws that you would find in the Old Testament Torah, unless they do find a recurrence or an expansion or a repetition in the

New Testament, that they would just be canceled and they no longer apply. There is a camp within N .C

.T. that holds that. P .T .I .N .C .T. does not. And Steve Lair was one who held that.

And he began asking certain questions because then if the

Seventh Commandment, thou shalt not commit adultery, is still repeated in the New Testament.

And then so he started asking questions. Well, is is it then feasible since we no longer have the

Levitical guidelines and the Torah guidelines on marrying a close relative? Could I theoretically marry my sister or a close relative and not be incest?

Now, you can imagine that that caused a huge hubbub. And I remember well, theological circles.

And so the problem, I think, with the underlying presupposition with Steve's position on that, which

I reject, is that it's much more nuanced than just canceling all

Old Testament law. Now, now, of course, folks in covenant theology understand the tripartite division of the law.

So the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ. Then we're no longer theocracy.

So the national or governmental institutional laws no longer apply. So the moral law is carried forward.

Now, N .C .T. does not hold to that. Now, the way it's been defined and it was defined by my mentor and those around.

So Dr. Long. Is that as a system of covenant law, the

Old Covenant, we are no longer under the Old Covenant. So as a system of covenantal law,

Christians are not under the law of Moses. However, that being said, the law of Moses is a part of Old Testament scripture.

And so we don't we're not Marcianites, nor do we advocate this, where we just get rid of our

Old Testaments and cut it out. Because, of course, we N .C .T. and N .C

.T. is not this is not unique to N .C .T., but this happens to be one of kind of the real solid distinctives of N .C

.T. is that we believe in the maxim of interpreting the Old Testament through the lens of the new.

Specifically in Christ, so we don't get rid of our Old Testament. We just view all of scripture.

Through the lens of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so how this works out specifically with Steve Lair's question is, well, how would the

New Testament understand sexual immorality that is forbidden in the

Seventh Commandment? Well, we don't just get rid of our Old Testaments. Those would still apply.

We still don't marry close relatives. We still don't commit bestiality or incest or or,

God forbid, those those types of perversions because that command that has been repeated.

And I would argue elevated because now it's no longer just the act itself. It's it's now you will not even look with lust upon another person.

So it's been elevated, at least how folks in N .C .T. understand it as as Christ, the new lawgiver.

So long story short, that kind of distinctions where we're just completely getting rid of the

Old Testament and it's no longer informing in some way how we understand commands in the

New Testament, I think, is very erroneous. So Steve and Steve Lair caused a huge ruckus with that position and then has since left

N .C .T. And I'm not sure what the particulars of where he went. I've heard either like an Anglican or a

Lutheran. He embraced Lutheranism or Anglicanism. So.

And I would also say there was also some there was also some friction between the late

John Riesinger and even his brother, Ernie Riesinger. Right. And by the way, I don't know if you know this.

Ernie is the founder of the church where I'm a member. OK, I did not know that.

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Ernie founded that church in, I believe, 1957.

It was definitely the 50s. And then he eventually moved to Cape Coral, Florida, where he served many years at Grace Baptist Church down there.

But he was he was the founder. Yeah. And although although the friction that I refer to between the two

Riesinger brothers doesn't it doesn't come close to at least like any, in my opinion, theological error like we have with with the question that Steve Lair asked.

But there was there's friction between the N .C .T. understanding of things like the law and the

Sabbath with folks from either the 1689 camp and the Presbyterianism or the

Presbyterian camp. So I would I would argue there's and I would also say this to a

Presbyterian brother. There is so much stuff that we agree on. There's so much stuff that we agree on the essentials of the

Christian faith. So the Trinity, hypostatic union, inspiration, we would hold to the solos as well.

At least all of the folks in N .C .T. that I am in contact with hold to the five solos, the doctrines of grace, a

Baptist ecclesiologies. Pardon me. So there are certain things where we would differ theologically.

But those would be in the areas of disputable matters, not heretical. So I think that's a for lack of a better term.

I haven't finished going through that book. But but some of the conclusions I would completely disagree with, because it's taking it's taking disputable matters of the

Christian faith and it's turning them into essentials and then declaring those who don't agree with one's interpretation of certain disputables as heretics.

And I don't think we as Christians should be doing that. I think that's I think it's very uncharitable. I think it's very on Christlike.

And I think we do more damage when we when we treat other brothers like that.

So one of one of the popular or I won't say popular, but one of the phrases that really struck me when

I was in seminary and my students can probably quote this back to me because I say it all the time in class. But it's in the essentials unity in the non essentials liberty in all things charity.

And so all of the differences between New Covenant theology and covenant theology and dispensational theology, none of those are essential to the

Christian faith. And if we can remember that without making straw men or like pot shots or or making, you know, appeals to authority that don't exist and just fallacies in our reasoning, we all do this to to to our own extent because none of us are perfect in our logic.

But but if we can remember that we're we're with the differences between these three groups, we're dealing with disputable matters that we can actually sit down and have a discussion.

OK, which interpretation is closer to the God intended meaning of the text and the

God inspired meaning of the text. And so I would if I if it comes to me,

I'll think of the book, the title of the book, but it was by a Presbyterian brother. So the brother who asked the question is probably referring to that book.

And of course, in general, you unfortunately have many people in the

Christian faith spanning the spectrum of theology who make public statements about someone else's theology without really doing their homework and knowing what that theological system they're critiquing really teaches.

And we've got to always remember that bearing false witness against our neighbor that that goes for anybody.

And, you know, we're not we're not supposed to exaggerate or make false statements about anybody.

And the I was as I was telling

Brother Van Court yesterday, I have many fond memories of of the

John Bunyan conference. But I did meet people on both sides of the divide that were misrepresenting each other.

I met New Covenant theology advocates who were accusing covenant theologians as being on the border of or even crossing the border of Judaizing.

And I've met covenant feel theology advocates accusing the

New Covenant men as antinomian. And I would have to rectify both of those mischaracterizations on an ongoing basis.

I was a member of and still am a member of a confessional 1689 covenant theology reformed

Baptist Church. I was saved in one and I'm still a member of one at a different congregation now that I moved to Pennsylvania.

But my precious late wife, Julie, before we were married was a member of a

New Covenant theology church. And that's how I really began attending the Bunyan conference and forming very close friendships with people on both sides of the divide.

So we've got to really stop misrepresenting our brethren and misrepresenting anybody for that matter.

And really do our homework if we if we are going to make public statements. And the whole concept about New Covenant theology being antinomian that conjures up lawlessness and living licentiously and living unrepentantly.

But I know full well that New Covenant theology does not teach that in any way, shape or form.

Yeah, absolutely. And if I can add two things because they just came to me while you were speaking. So since since I mentioned

Steve Lair, if you remember, I think this was four or five years ago that the

Masters Theological Seminary Journal, they did. I think it was a four part series on New Covenant theology.

I didn't know. And well, they did a survey. So it was so they quoted

Dr. Long. They quoted Dr. Riesinger or John Riesinger. I don't think it was a doctor. They quoted.

Steve Lair as well. And so there's a there's theological significant theological differences between what

Dr. Gary Long held, what Riesinger held and what Steve Lair held. And and and Jeff Volker was also quoted in there.

And so you had this really I don't want to say patchwork, but it was is a little haphazard because it wasn't coming from a consistent source.

And I'm not I'm not casting aspersion on any motivations for to to the

Masters Seminary Journal because I love that journal. But since they were just quoting very different sources from different assumptions, it the.

I can see how some people, if they read that, they would come away with, oh, I want to stay away from New Covenant theology entirely because there's just problems.

So, like, I can understand that. And and to the degree that they were quoting that they didn't put anything out of context, it's just when everything kind of came together in there, it leaves you this picture like this.

This doesn't seem theologically consistent, if that makes sense, or cogent, a cogent system of theology.

And. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

I think I lost my other point while I was just speaking. But but, yeah, I completely agree. We need to be very careful how we represent others.

And to the best of our ability, we need to make sure that we're quoting them correctly. And this is a principle that I learned from some of John Newton's writings that I try to get my students to do.

And I tried to do this myself. Is that before you actually when they're writing papers in the

Bible classes that I teach before they actually begin critiquing the position.

So if they're writing about. So in my systematic theology class,

I have one of the papers I have to write is on an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. Then a second paper is on a disputable doctrine of their choice.

And then the third is about a heresy. And so even with the heresy. I emphasize you need to make sure that you understand the heresy to the degree that one of the heretics would basically say, yep, that's exactly what

I hold in. In a way, you're earning the right to critique the position. And once you do that and earn the right, then proceed with Christian love and proceed biblically and then analyze, refute, critique and uphold, depending on what you're what you're dealing with.

But you earn the right to critique stuff. So you make sure that you're quoting them correctly. And Alex, be patient with us because we're going to have

Zach answer your question. Your second question after our midway break. Send in your questions to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

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Last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid, biblically faithful church, no matter where you live in the world, a church like Grace Covenant Church of Portsmouth, Rhode Island, well,

I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, all over the planet Earth, find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, that may be you too if you are without a biblically sound church home.

So let me know, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line, that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Zach Maxey, that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA, and Zach, the second question that was submitted to us by Alex Wright of Orlando, Florida, with vesselsforchrist .org,

he originally intended this question for Gary George, because he knew that Gary is an open air evangelist, but we ran out of time, and we couldn't read this question for Gary, so he asks,

Have you noticed an uptick on heresies and attacks on the Trinity in your evangelism encounters?

It seems to me that there has been an increase, and I would love to know your thoughts on this.

Are you there, Zach? Yes, so, sorry about that. I would, to answer for Gary, I would believe he'd probably say yes, because even in my own encounters,

I'm less of an open air evangelist than Brother Gary George is, and the

Lord has definitely gifted him to be an evangelist, and he's able to do it very skillfully, very blessed, and preach the word powerfully with the

Spirit. I think he would say yes, though. The reason why I say that is because even some of the things that I have seen in my own, just interacting with, not necessarily my students, but folks on the periphery, of our church, or folks who

I've considered, or just even some of the, like, even some of the folks on YouTube, who would probably style themselves as influencers, quite a few of them,

I've stopped listening to quite a few of them, just because when they start talking theology, if they're talking about politics or cultural things, and then they start, they claim the name of Christ, and then they start talking about essential doctrines of the

Christian faith, and we're not talking about ancillary, disputable matters, stuff like the Trinity, you clearly hear this modalism that comes out, you even clearly,

I've heard some Arian takes, that Christ is created, and he's not fully

God, and so I think it is on the rise, and I think that stems from the fact that,

I don't think you could call the United States a Christian country, but since its inception, you have a very

Christian set of roots, so like the pilgrims, and the Puritans, and Jonathan Edwards, and that whole set of Christian roots, but at the same time, growing up alongside it, you have the terrors, that are coming from a secular perspective, or philosophical, or humanistic, and things like that, but I would say, since we've taken the

Bible out of schools, even the average American, at least their, let's call it a theological acumen, or even their knowledge of basic Bible stories, is completely diminished, almost, and so it's almost like, if they go to church, or they hear a street preacher, they're hearing many of these stories for the same time, it's very similar,

I would imagine, to when Paul goes to Athens, and he's reasoning with the philosophers, who are coming with their own completely different pagan worldview, and he's attempting to reason with them, and I think that's a good picture, at least of what the

United States looks like right now, and may the Lord be merciful to our country, I mean, his true nation, his true chosen new covenant people is the church,

I believe, but he tells us to pray for our respective countries and communities, and so may the

Lord have mercy upon the United States of America and its citizens, may he turn hearts to the

Lord Jesus. Yes, I have had conversations with a number of people who are theologically sound brethren in Christ, particularly from, you know,

Reformed, Sovereign Grace, Calvinistic backgrounds, who dedicate much of their lives and time to open air evangelism and preaching, and they have told me that they are grief -stricken and troubled deeply that they are, they believe, in a minority in regard to open air evangelism when it comes to theological soundness, and very rarely are there fellow

Calvinists out there doing the open air preaching, and you have all kinds of heresies, and another thing that seems to be very common, sadly, is that many open air preachers have no connection to a local church, they're not a member of a local church, they're not under the authority of elders in a local church, and they are really mavericks, lone wolves, if you will, and very often teaching all kinds of dangerous things, so I just thought

I'd throw that out there, and of course, please don't discount anybody you see open air evangelizing because there are a growing number of solidly

Reformed, Sovereign Grace -believing Calvinistic men doing this. So I don't know if you have any comments about what

I just said there. No, no, I would agree wholeheartedly,

I have less of experience compared to Gary George with open street preaching, open air preaching, but I would agree, at least from what

I can see in the local area around here, whether it's the state of Massachusetts where I live or the state of Rhode Island where the church that I attend is placed, and even just nationally, you can just really see that these heresies are sinking in because people not only don't know the word of God, but even if they are reading the

Bible or have been exposed to some modicum of theology, like you just said, many of them are mavericks and are not coming under the authority of biblical elders to come alongside them in the spirit of Priscilla and Aquila and show them the correct way of how to understand these eternal truths.

So I would agree wholeheartedly with that. Well, returning to our main theme that we opened up during the first break after introductory comments and so on, the blessed hope, its nature and implications from Titus chapter 2 verse 13.

We do have a listener named Trish who lives in Walker, Wisconsin, and Trish asks, do not people very often get confused when we use words like hope because in our common modern vernacular that usually means that you're not certain about something, but optimistic.

And very often you will have people giving heretical responses. For instance, if you ask a

Roman Catholic the question, do you believe you're going to heaven? The very common response to that question is,

I hope so. So perhaps we should clarify what exactly is meant when it comes to hope in the scriptures.

Oh, absolutely. That's a great question. So, I mean, we're always on dangerous ground when we start to isogeet at least our understanding of certain words and concepts into the scripture.

And we need to actually take the time to pause and to even question our assumptions.

So am I reading myself into this text? Am I understanding into this text? And at least how the

Bible uses hope, it's not something that is unclear or uncertain. So for example,

Jesus himself is called the hope of Israel in the book of Acts. So I take that passage at the very end of the book of Acts when the book is being wrapped up, when he says,

I've done nothing but preach, or it's toward the ends of Acts, sorry, that I've done nothing but preach the hope of Israel.

That's Christ. So Christ is the second person of the Trinity, 100 %

God, 100 % man. He is absolutely coming back. This is not just something that we have a vague notion or we have a vague expectation.

This is something that, this is the hope that is, I would say it's a spirit -wrought hope.

And because it's a spirit -wrought hope, so everyone who has experienced the grace of God in a salvific way, because there is such a thing as common grace, the unbelievers, that God deals with towards them.

But those who have experienced the spirit -wrought, salvific grace of God in salvation have a spirit -wrought hope.

And it's an absolute certainty. It's an expectant waiting. It's an intense waiting.

It's 100 % certain. Now we might be a little uncertain, okay, when is this going to happen?

Because we're not told. We're not told when he is going to return, nor do we need to know when he's going to return.

No one knows the day or the hour. And even in the opening of the book of Acts, you know, these things the father determines when the disciples ask when he is going to return and set up the kingdom for Israel.

And so we may be unclear about when it's actually going to occur, because none of us know.

Or we might be unclear on the exact, so certain elements of what's going to happen, like the exact sequence of events.

But in terms of the certainty of the event, it is 100%. And I absolutely believe it's a spirit -wrought hope that is given to believers by the

Holy Spirit of God. Because you have these three virtues, the so -called, you know, church virtues or the spiritual virtues.

So I'm referencing the classical virtues, so of wisdom, of courage, of temperance, of justice.

And so those are the cardinal virtues that we see referenced in, you know, classical works like Plato that were harnessed into eventually classical

Christian education, which is what I am a part of in my day job. But we also have the three spiritual virtues, which are faith, hope, and love.

And 1 Corinthians 13 holds those three together, but of course the greatest of the three is love.

Because hope is eventually going to give way to a realization when the event actually happens, so we're no longer looking forward to it, we're experiencing it.

And then faith is a belief in things, a certain belief in things that have not been seen yet.

And so both of those are going to give way when Christ comes back and is reunited with his bride, you know, or united with his bride in a very physical sense.

So we're going to be in his presence, the resurrection's going to happen, we're going to receive deathless, immortal bodies, we're going to be,

I think, I believe we're going to be filled with the Holy Spirit, just like we should have always been. We're going to be learning directly from God himself for all of eternity.

And I can't think of anything more exciting than when you pause to consider what it's going to be like when he returns, when

Christ returns and when he makes all things new. And granted, we may differ on the sequence of events.

So for example, and I was going to get into this with the nature of the event itself, but I think that particular verse, when we say the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great

God and Savior, so some would actually separate those two things. So dispensationalists sometimes separate them.

So the blessed hope is the rapture, the secret rapture. And then what's sometimes translated as the appearing of the glory or the glorious appearing.

So you can see this in like the Left Behind series, because one of the books is actually called The Glorious Appearing, where there's other references in the

Left Behind series that the blessed hope was the secret rapture that takes place towards the beginning of that series.

But I don't think that's how we're supposed to take that text. I think those two terms are synonymous.

They might be emphasizing a different element of the return of Christ, but they're the same thing.

They're the same exact event. And we see this throughout the New Testament. So our dispensational brothers would see a distinction, for example, in 1

Thessalonians 4, and it talks about the, when it uses the verb harpatsamatha, which sometimes they colloquially call as the harpazo, as a synonym for the rapture.

And then when it breaks over to 1 Thessalonians 5, when it's talking about the day of the

Lord, then they generally will hold. And I used to hold this, at least

I was slightly dispensationalist with my eschatology at one point. And so then chapter 5 is talking about the final return of Christ at the end of the seven -year tribulation period of Daniel's 70th week.

But I don't think that's how we're supposed to read it. So you have the same description. So 1

Thessalonians 4 uses parousia, the Greek word for coming. Parousia is also used in 1

Corinthians 15. It's also used in Matthew 24. And there are so many similarities between those different texts that are speaking of the return of Christ.

There's references to trumpets. There's references to gathering by angels. There's reference to shouts.

So this harkens back to, I'll say the Feast of Israel, because it does appear that the

Feast of Trumpets, so Tishri 1 on the Jewish calendar, is just like the Passover on the

Jewish calendar, was typological of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and we're covered by his blood, and he's our

Passover lamb. And then Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection. And then Pentecost, you have the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit. I think with Tishri 1, so the Feast of Trumpets, the day of the shouts or the day of the trumpets, you have that terminology connected with the return of Christ.

And the very interesting thing about that particular feast on the Jewish calendar is because it's when the moon is in a new moon phase.

And so when that first sliver of the moon appears, that's when the trumpet would be blown. Well, the only way that they know that that new moon has come is by expectantly watching to see the evidence of the new moon.

And it has this idea of being about the Lord's work, what he calls us to, and also expectantly waiting in a confident expectation, a 100 % confident expectation that he's going to return.

And so I believe that passage is actually, when it says blessed hope, it may be it's emphasizing the fact of the hope of the resurrection, the hope of our being united with the

Lord Jesus, the hope of the resurrection of all creation. And so I know our dispensationalist brothers and even some historic premials would separate.

So the rapture, the seven -year tribulation period, generally speaking, the second coming and then the millennial kingdom. Well, myself as a

New Covenant theologian and other Reformed brethren, so the 1699 camp and the Westminster camp would view that all of these events are going to happen very close in proximity to each other.

The Lord Jesus is going to return. He's going to defeat his enemies. He's going to gather his people. Then the judgment is going to take place.

And then God is going to recreate the universe in a new heaven and a new earth.

And then you're going to have the eternal state. And I personally hold and I personally believe, and granted, this is a disputable matter of the faith.

So I won't get in a fight with anyone. But I do think that the scripture is pointing to certain, there are certain indicators in Romans 8 that when our resurrection is going to occur, then when the creation is liberated from its bondage of decay.

So if you want to call it the entropy of the universe or the decay of the universe, which was brought about by Adam's fall, when that's removed, we're going to be resurrected at the same time,

Romans 8 seems to be saying. And so I think the blessed hope in my estimation is the same thing as the glorious appearing.

It's just emphasizing two different aspects of the event itself. Excellent. We have

Camelia in central Islip, Long Island, New York. And Camelia asks, when we are sharing the gospel with people that we meet or even know very well and love, sometimes they will respond when they are going through some kind of a great trial in their life that we can give them no comfort or hope because we have not walked in their shoes and experienced things exactly as they have.

How do we respond to such replies to our efforts at evangelism? I think that that's a case of wisdom.

And what I mean by that is, you know, when you're reading the Proverbs and two

Proverbs seem to be saying the exact opposite. And I'm not advocating situational ethics, but what

I am advocating is Christians need to conduct themselves as wise as serpents, as harmless as doves.

And so sometimes, when we're trying to give hope and encourage family members or friends who have gone through some sort of significant trauma, sometimes we just need to be there for them and especially pray.

Now, we should be preaching the gospel of hope to them. We should be doing that. But when, if a response is given, well, you can't possibly understand what

I'm going through. You know, sometimes I don't necessarily think we need to respond in kind because obviously

I think, well, this may not be obvious, but I think we as Christians, I think we as Christians, if we believe that the word of God is true and God has created us, then we can speak with authority that the word illuminates us with.

But at the same time, I don't think we necessarily need to respond in kind and say and get in.

We should just be there loving the person, caring for the person, and then just being a faithful witness.

So continuing to offer the hope of the gospel if the Holy Spirit is pleased to use that, then as it says in John 3, 16, the spirit blows upon whom he will.

And we just need to be a faithful witness. I don't think we necessarily need to respond. And, you know,

I reject that claim because you see that manifesting itself with regards to the woke community and cultural

Marxism or even the abortion debate. So a man cannot speak with authority on the whole issue of abortion because a man cannot give birth to a child.

And of course, we as Christians know that that's ludicrous because we have the word of God behind us.

And so we're speaking with his authority. So I think it would be the same thing in that particular case. We don't necessarily need to throw it back in their face.

That's probably the last thing. And not to say that the person who put in the question is advocating that, but I'm just using an extreme for the sake of discussion.

But I think we just need to be there. We need to be a faithful witness. We need to be loving. We need to be kind, continue to preach the gospel.

And even if they respond with that, what's really going to change them is the gospel itself. So this is like, this might be slightly off topic, but so in this year,

I'm teaching biblical apologetics and worldview. And so I say to the students, you know, at the cross of Christ, you had three groups of people that are all looking at the same event, the same data.

They're looking at a young Jewish man being crucified on a Roman cross.

You have three groups of people there, all of which are approaching that event from very different worldviews.

And so one group, of course, the Romans, aside from the centurion who proclaims that he's the son of God, surely this is the son of God.

But the other Romans believe they're executing a malfactor or a criminal. And then you have the

Jewish priests there who believe, OK, well, this man is getting what he deserves because he was a blasphemer.

And then you have a third group there, of course, the believers, so John and the women who are at the cross, they're looking up and seeing their savior crucified on a cross.

And so we can be looking at the same event, but approach it radically different.

And so all that to say, I don't think we necessarily need to throw it back, but just to be a faithful witness, hold out the hope.

If the spirit is pleased, they will respond. But of course, I reject that argument because where the word speaks,

Christians can speak. Amen. Amen. We have time for one more question before our final commercial break.

We have Chloe, who lives in Toronto, Canada, and Chloe asks, there is a tension, it seems, in the way that Christians should live between looking forward to and anticipating with great optimism the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great

God and Savior, Jesus Christ. But at the same time, there are those who have an eschatology, such as a post -millennialist, who believes that the return of Christ is far off into the future, which robs one of the intimacy of that return.

Of course, there are those who have a pre -Trib eschatology, who have the attitude of why polish the brass in a sinking ship, and they believe with certainty that Christ will return in the very near future, and therefore don't believe in putting much effort into doing anything to change the culture around them.

How do we maintain a balance with this in the Christian life? That's a very good question.

So you're dealing with a tension that we resort to when we don't recognize that tension.

I would actually use a scriptural example. I'm pretty sure the apostles, so when

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, this generation will not pass away until these things begin to happen.

Or you could also translate that aorist verb there, until these things happen, which is why the dispensationalists of course hold some of the particular views that they do.

But I wouldn't be surprised that the apostles probably thought the Lord was going to return in their lifetime.

But you don't see them breaking away and forming a monastery or pulling completely away from the culture.

You see them going out in the power of the Holy Spirit. You see them preaching mightily. I mean, we don't know if Paul made it to Spain, but he writes about, you know,

I want to get to Spain to share the gospel there too. And so it's just constantly moving to the next because more and more people need to hear this message.

And so I think we need to have that same mindset. You know, even if we believe or are convinced that the

Lord is going to return in our own lifetime, you show your belief and your expectancy.

Well, if the Lord is going to return in my lifetime, I want to make sure that I'm doing what he has called me to do. And I think that's the mindset that the apostles did and I think that navigates against the extremes of completely just, okay, well, you know, the world's just completely unsalvageable.

I'm not going to try to engage anything or we just put it remote like some folks do.

And then we just focus on the here and now. So I think that Titus 2 in particular talks about those implications.

Well, if we actually believe and we have this hope, not only are we called to live a godly life and to focus on living a godly life and having a godly family and raising godly children, if the

Lord has given those to us, but also to devote ourselves to whatever he has called us to do. So for me, at least right now, being a schoolteacher at a classical

Christian school, you know, one day that can change. The Lord could call me into the pastorate or, you know,

Chris Arnzen, what you're doing with your radio show, what the Lord has called you to do. And so I think we look forward to that.

But because we look forward to that, we want to make sure that we are servants that when the master returns, we're doing what he wants us to do.

And then so we don't have to be ashamed. Yeah. And I think you see that that example with the apostles.

In fact, we could be face to face with our master tonight, even if our eschatology has him coming in the distant future because we may die tonight.

Yeah, we may be face to face with him, not in his second coming, but in when we are standing before him after death.

So people, people have to remember that we have to go to our final break right now.

And if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com will be right back.

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G -A -L -A Also, if you're a man in ministry leadership, I invite you to attend the next

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free pastor's luncheon, which will be held Thursday, June the 6th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is

Perry County, Pennsylvania. My guest speaker for the very first time is Dr. Joel Beakey, founder and president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

And not only is admission free and the lunch free and your time of fun, fellowship, rest, relaxation, recreation, and edification by a powerful message from Dr.

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to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest, Zach Maxey, and send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Zach, before I go to any listener question,

I'd really like you to summarize what you most want to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

So, Chris, I believe what I would want people to most take away from anything that they've heard is that Christians should have hope.

And so and we have a spirit wrought hope. And so very often we will take our eyes off of the things of heaven and take our eyes off of God's word with all of the things that are swarming around us.

And yet we don't ask for so many things that, like, for example, the fruits of the spirit.

So I say this to myself. I say this to my students when some of when some of my students come back and say, well,

I can't actually, you know, control myself to do that. I'm like, well, you know where self -control comes from, right?

Are you asking for it? And so and so that would apply to hope because although although hope is not listed in the fruits of the spirit,

I do believe the hope that we have that the 100 percent certainty that Christ is returning.

It's spirit wrought and it's wrought in us the moment we become a believer because that's what our heart longs for.

We long to be united with the one that we were created for and how we express that is in obedience.

So not to completely separate ourselves from the world, but to pray for those around us to so that the kingdom of God can be expanded and also to devote ourselves to whatever the

Lord has called us to do, whether that's be a pastor, whether that's in whatever manner of work, but to devote our hearts as if we're working for the

Lord and also to please Christ by living a holy life and to become more like him.

So because the whole goal of our salvation, as it says in Romans 8, is to be conformed to the true image of God who is

Jesus Christ, to be conformed to the image of his son. And so that hope and God's grace and the spirit within us empowers us to focus on the here and now and maintain that tension of expectantly waiting, but living in such a way that we're interacting with people for eternal, with eternal consequences for their salvation.

So that's what I would want folks to take away from. Great. We have a question and this may be a first time questioner.

We have Christine in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania. My question is, when the marriage supper of the

Lamb will be? So that's a good question.

I would say that's, that is a disputable matter of the faith, depending on which particular theological schema you're coming from.

So I would say dispensationalists would tend to take the marriage supper of the

Lamb. I have heard at the secret rapture, so that takes place in heaven.

So prior to the final seven -year tribulation period. And so while dispensationalists hold that the wrath of God is being poured out upon the surface of the earth, and then the

Lord is returning to Israel and saving a remnant from Israel, and then coming back and then setting up the

Millennial Kingdom, I would hazard a guess they would say the marriage supper of the Lamb would occur at the pre -tribulation rapture.

Now, I personally hold, like I said before, I think, and I think most Reformed folks do hold to a variety of this, that all of these events, so the actual elements of Orthodox Christian eschatology, the essentials that you must believe are

Christ is returning visibly, bodily, in power with great glory, that he is going to defeat his enemies, that he is going to execute the general resurrection, so the resurrection to eternal life for the righteous, the resurrection to damnation for those who do not know

Christ, and then you have the final judgment and you're going to have the new heavens and the new earth, so the eternal state for the righteous and then the eternal state for the wicked.

I personally hold that those are happening in rapid succession. And so I would say that the marriage supper of the

Lamb takes place in eternity. And so we're using marriage language because the church is the bride of Christ and Christ is our husband, and so we're going to be united with him eternally.

And so marriage, of course, in this life on earth is a picture of that great union between God and his people for all of eternity.

So I think the marriage supper of the Lamb is not necessarily a specific event where we're gathered around tables and rejoicing, although it could be that.

I think it's more describing the joy and the realized hope and the realized faith and the actual...

I mean, we're going to experience God in a way that we have never experienced him before. And in the resurrection, we're going to be thinking the thoughts we should have always thought.

We're going to be loving each other the way we should have always loved. We're going to be loving God the way that we should have always loved.

And so when there's nothing coming in between us and God and us and each other, that's what

I think the joy that's being encapsulated in that term, the marriage supper of the Lamb.

So I think it's the eternal union with God and his people. We're out of time. Thank you, Christine.

And if you are a first -time questioner, send me your full mailing address because you've won a free

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John Bunyan Conference, April 14th through the 17th at Grace Church in Franklin, Tennessee.

For more details, go to ptinct .org, ptinct .org.

Thank you so much, Zach, and everybody else who listened to the program and sent in questions especially.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.