May 3, 2021 Show with Tom Buck on “The Woke Hermeneutic: A Cancer in the Pulpit”

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The Woke Movement and the Need for a Biblical Response

And today we have a guest that I've been wanting to interview again for quite a while because of the timely nature of especially his area of expertise. He's got many areas of expertise, but one that involves a great danger in the body of Christ, perhaps right now, one of the greatest dangers facing the body of Christ that is being taught and believed by professing Christians, even professing Christians who share, at least claim to share, our theology and our history and our doctrine and our practice.

I'm talking about everything under the umbrella of the woke movement. And today's guest is one of the most courageous voices speaking out against this movement, perhaps even specifically in the Southern Baptist Convention.

And might I add that there are still many very fine, biblically sound, theologically faithful Southern Baptist congregations that are not collapsing by the weight of the pressure of the left to embrace the wokeness movement.

So I have to make sure I make that clear. But it is a growing danger there and other places as well, even amongst those that would call themselves Reformed. But I'm speaking of Pastor Tom Buck, who is pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, and he's a board member of G3 Ministries.

And he's also one of the speakers at the Wokeness and the Gospel Conference, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth in June. And today we are going to be addressing the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Tom Buck.

It's good to be with you, Chris. Thanks for having me today and excited to talk to you this afternoon.

Well, why don't you let our listeners know, for those of our listeners who have not yet heard you on this program or elsewhere, let our listeners know something about First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas.

Well, we're located in East Texas about an hour and a half from Dallas, and thankful for the ministry that God's given us to speak out against anything that's a threat to it.

Great. And I understand that your church is a theologically reformed Baptist church?

We are. We're reformed in our soteriology and faithfulness to God.

If anybody wants more information about the First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, that website, and I'm hoping that we remember to repeat that later on in the broadcast as well, but the website is FBC, for First Baptist Church, Lindale, L-I-N-D-A-L-E dot com.

That's F-B-C, Lindale dot com. Tell us also about G3 Ministries, the organization on which, or one of the organizations on which you serve as a board member.

Well, G3 Ministries, as you know, began as a conference. They're G3 Ministries where we are wanting to every other year, but we are going to be, hopefully, be publishing literature that will oversee those.

And that is where we train pastors. Thankful, Dr. Josh Spice is the head, excited about the coming days.

And you might want to write this down, folks. The next G3 conference, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth, will be in Atlanta, Georgia, once again. And the dates are September 30th through October 2nd.

The website is G3conference .com, G3conference .com. The theme is Christ is supreme over all. And there will be over 20 speakers at this conference, and you'll be hearing the ads during this program that give you a lot more detail.

Another website to remember, which is basically connected with G3conference .com, is G3min .org, G -3-M-I-N, short for ministries .org, G3min .org. Now, more relevant to our discussion today, there is a Wokeness and the Gospel conference coming up in Texas, and more specifically in Denton, Texas.

I'm very excited about that for a couple of reasons. Number one is I'm excited to be there at a conference featuring such powerful and gifted speakers on a very important subject like Wokeness and the Gospel.

But also, the conference is being held geographically very close to where my oldest brother lives, my brother John, who lives in Justin, Texas. And I have not seen my brother since 1998, since the funeral of our father.

So, I am looking forward to be there to see my brother, pray for my brother John. He has cancer, he has critical stage emphysema, and he has an inoperable aneurysm. So, he needs your prayer, and he also needs your prayer for salvation.

It is not very clear if my brother understands the Gospel and embraces it. So, I'd appreciate your prayers. But also, I'm looking forward to seeing my friend Mac Tomlinson, who pastors nearby, right in Denton.

Do you know Pastor Mac Tomlinson?

I do not.

Oh, you got to get to know him, and I'm hoping he'll be there.

Yeah.

He is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and he is a Reformed Baptist as well. A great guy, a wonderful brother, and I'm sure you would love meeting him. So, tell us more about the Wokeness in the Gospel conference, and what your specific topic will be there.

Well, we have several to be on the new moralism and its incompatibility with the cross. And we have Dr. Owen, he has a book coming out very soon, it's the latest, on the issue of wokeness. Darrell Harrison will be there as well, and he is with Grace to You Ministries, social media there, and then he's also one of the voices for the Just Thinking podcast.

Pastor Tommy Nelson, who is the pastor at Denton Bible Church, will be there, an exciting conference that's going to help people get their minds around. A lot of people are, a lot of just your lay Christians are having a hard time understanding what it is, having, it's a danger.

Too many people are thinking that it's, we're making too much of, but it is, it is creeping into the church, it's already.

Yes, and folks, you might want to take out your calendars and mark down a few important dates, because they are dates that I am going to be interviewing other speakers who are being featured at the Wokeness in the Gospel conference.

Let's see here, on Monday, the 17th of May, I'm going to be interviewing Tommy Nelson. And on the 21st of May, which is a Friday, I'm going to be interviewing Owen Strand on the book that our brother Tom Buck just mentioned.

And on the 25th of May, which is a Tuesday, I have Rodney C. Brown on the program. And then on Thursday, the 27th of May, I have Daryl Bernard Harrison returning to the program as well. So mark those dates on your calendar.

If you want me to repeat that later on after the program, just send me an email and I'll give you the information on those dates and speakers. Well, the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit. Now, most of my listeners, I'm sure, understand what a hermeneutic is.

But we do have new Christians listening. We have people outside of the Christian faith. I know this term is not exclusive to Christianity. A hermeneutic can be used, that phrase or that concept can be used for any literature inside and outside of Christianity and inside and outside of religion.

But tell us specifically what a hermeneutic is and then tell us what the woke hermeneutic is.

Well, to be as basic as possible, hermeneutic, when we think of biblical hermeneutics, is the method that we use by which to discover the original meaning of the text. What did 1, verses 3 to 12, if we're looking at that, what was Paul saying?

And what does he mean by the words that he was saying? And what we mean by that is that we say, what did the original, what was the original tent of the author? And how would the original audience have understood?

We have to expand the words of that day, both of the original author and the audience. And we have to understand that, and it can never mean to us what it did not. The danger with the woke hermeneutic is that identity becomes a central part, if not the main part, of understanding what you will begin to hear other people of different ethnicities.

I've heard it said that by a professor, as a white male, I will be sane, and I need the voice of others around me. Unity, we can come to understand what the Bible is.

And what I was saying before about the dangers of this woke movement, not only involves people promoting it, which is, I would imagine, the greatest danger, but there is also a significant danger in the fear that I have witnessed amongst like-minded brethren in all other areas, or most other areas of theology and practice, the great danger of the fear of publicly associating yourself as being an opponent of this movement.

I know people who are, perhaps, just as opposed to it as you and I are, but they don't want that to be known. They don't want their sermons that may have mentioned anything about the Bible to be recorded or made publicly known.

They don't want to have anything quoted by them in opposition to this. They want to stay, as far as the public eye is concerned, they want to stay as far away from this issue as they possibly can. Do you think that in our day and age, Christians who are as opposed to this as we are, have the liberty to just stay out of the fight like this?

Right, and almost right. And it sounds almost right, because, hey, we need to study the Bible regarding if we are all using the same hermeneutic. Looking back, everybody bringing their own to the table, we certainly need to apply what to take.

We've got to be careful, be infected with it, and they will not know how to study their Bibles any longer. So we need to be training our people to know how to address today, is this woke hermeneutic?

Now, what would you say, if there are any? Let's start off the deeper look into this situation. What would you say are some issues being raised by proponents, advocates of the woke movement, that are healthy and good things that would be wise for the church?

To include in our preaching and teaching, and our books and our lectures, and our seminaries, that may have been overlooked in years past, or may possibly even opposed in years past. Is there anything, like for instance, I think you and I would agree, that as much as you and I despise most of what is under the umbrella of liberalism, and that is by the way, folks, different than leftism, they are two different things.

But as much as we may despise much of the fruit, the bad fruit of liberalism, we would agree, in fact, we would agree with James, who wrote the Epistle, that the physical needs of the poor must be taken care of.

We would agree that racism is a sin from the pit of hell, so much so that Moses's sister was struck leprous by God as a punishment or as a chastisement when she was speaking with bigoted thoughts against his Ethiopian wife and other places in the scripture.

And in fact, we would include in that, even in the New Testament, the Judaizers were basically bigots, anti-Gentile bigots. So we see some right things that came out of, they didn't come out of liberalism, but they were championed by liberals when conservatives really should have been championing them.

It shouldn't have been liberals championing integration and all that kind of thing that it seems that most of the loudest people involved in the civil rights movement were liberals and even extremely and seriously heretical liberals.

And at the very least, their voices were louder and more part of the limelight, if you will, where the conservative voices of those believing in biblical inerrancy and so on were much more quiet, it seems to me, and maybe you could correct me if you think I'm wrong.

But what about the woke movement? Is there anything that the church at large swept under the rug that we should have brought to the surface and highlighted that they are almost exclusively promoting?

Well, I don't know that I would say that they're exclusively promoting, but if I look at the Southern Baptist Convention, it's deep-seated ethnic reality, tolerated ethnic partiality practice needed to address, I believe they did.

Maybe we did not, you know, maybe it is that we need to look and see if we have addressed it as fully as it needs to be. The problem with employing partiality in the present, it creates great leads to forget.

You take, for example, removing the stain of racism from steeped in woke ideology, and that is that it needs to be paid. Rather than there being the bring unity, it divides because you have given of the past the only way that the white voice promoting the voices.

And we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Tom Buck on the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit, send those questions by email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And if you just tuned us in and you want to be more informed about how you write your question, we are interviewing Tom Buck today. Pastor of the First Baptist Church of Lyndale, Texas. And our theme is the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit.

We are also promoting the Wokeness and the Gospel Conference. And if you want to find out more about that conference, I think I may have forgotten to announce the website in my introductory remarks. It is wokenessandgospel .org, wokenessandgospel .org.

No word the in there, just wokenessandgospel .org. So send us your emails to chrisarnson at gmail .com and give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

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Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Tom Buck, pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, board member at G3 Ministries, and one of the speakers at the Wokeness and the Gospel Conference in Denton, Texas, coming up next month.

We are speaking about the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Before I go to any listener questions, Pastor Tom, I want you to spell out some of the most crucial areas of great harm to the body of Christ that the woke movement is either consciously or unconsciously promoting and spreading.

One of the areas is the division that it's causing, because rather than uniting, dividing, throwing the oneness, I believe, the understanding, the oneness that we have and the unity we have, binning people from coming to understand the true meaning of the text, and it's teaching people that the word of God can be used like play-doh in your hand to be twisted and formed into whatever meaning, whatever idea you have.

And we have Russ in Rowlett, or Rowlett, Texas. Perhaps you being from Texas know how to pronounce that, Tom.

Rowlett.

Rowlett, okay. Russ from Rowlett, Texas. How do you think sexuality will play out in the woke hermeneutic as ministries like Living Out gain traction? Can you even explain what Living Out is?

Well, Living Out, Sam Mulberry, that being said, there's a lot of issues that are problematic with living for another time, and I think you and I, it's already beginning to be that someone who is to read into the text things that they see from their view.

So you could take a really, excuse me, and he just recently posted something where that he is interpreting Jesus as one. She says that to him and he acknowledges, and then he says to another individual that I think he says to her, why should I give?

And he accuses Jesus of being racist in that passage because he reads in that even Jesus, woman and dog, whatever letters that you might want to use are employed this.

So aren't there varying degrees of wokeism, for lack of a better term, that, in other words, it's not a monolithic group, is it? I mean, you have those in the group that would say that what you just read, quoted, spoke about, they would agree that it's an abomination and that it's damnable.

Absolutely.

So how is this related to wokeism?

Well, even when it comes to the issue of how you interpret the scripture, there's going to be a broad spectrum. The problem is that if you employ this hermeneutic at one level, and that he can't apply it at his level.

Let me just define one thing for us that if we go outside of wokeism, we just look at why are they employed? They're employed based upon what is chronality. Chronality is the location in how one understands and he goes on to say one's gender, race, class, on the knowledge of a person, what the knowledge that the world view.

They say that those who have a particular gender or race or class are going to be able to know things. A white male really is then say a black female because the black female has experienced a white male could never understand.

Oh yeah.

Now let's just transfer that over to the language in 2017 that Jarvis Williams, a professor at the Southern Bible Theology, about interpreting the Bible. Remember, Lindsay says, and positionality teaches, the race, class, that I suggest, and I'm quoting, Bible readers do the social postures.

It's right there. It's the same ideology, but it's taking that worldly concept and then it's moving it into the world of hermeneutics and saying this is how, what makes it. And so I believe he would emphatically, unequivocally say that Brandon Robertson.

Well, by the way, thank you, Russ in Rowlett, Texas. And I believe you're a first time questioner. So if you provide for me your full mailing address there in Texas, you'll receive a free New American Standard Bible, courtesy of the publishers of the NASB.

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Thanks a lot. We hope that you submit more questions in the future, Russ. We have an anonymous listener who says, some of my closest friends are members and pastors within the Southern Baptist Convention who fall into that category you mentioned earlier of not being in favor of the woke movement and social justice and intersectionality and all those other heretical concepts, but they are terrified to be public about their opposition to it.

Can you name some of the key figures that would be promoting this stuff that would be typically, or at least in the past, beloved by most conservative, Reformed evangelicals? And also, I tuned in late, so I did not hear this, is your church a member of the Southern Baptist Convention?

And do you think that this will ultimately result in a split?

Well, our church is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and there we have seen those who would stand strong for the truth who are now, seem to be problematic. So I just mentioned from 2017, where he's pushing a standpoint, you have the same thing happening at Southeastern Baptist theology.

Akin uses the same type of terminology, says. I've been teaching in either a Bible college or seminary now for over 30 years, and when I teach hermeneutics, one of the things that I point out is that we all have and say, he comes to the Bible and hears of the Bible as a white male, say a lesbian ethnicity, who the language that he uses there is gender, class, and race.

It's totally hermeneutic, or stand to wake up, and are being trained in these seminaries to, if we don't stop, I continue to allow this to go.

Now, one of the seminaries where many faculty members over the history of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio have been interviewed, and even very recently, is Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. How shaky is the ground that Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is planted on?

I mean, what I see is an amazing thing that a seminary that was plucked, that was rescued from leftism, that nearly destroyed the entire convention, and was rescued and brought back to conservative, hermeneutic, and biblical inerrancy.

Of course, even after that, there was always the divide, the very strong and vociferous divide between Calvinists and what they would call the traditional interpretation of Scripture, what we would call Arminian or non-reformed.

But it seems interesting how that denomination and seminary were rescued from leftism, and the fact that the danger of this movement taking control there is quite astonishing. How shaky is that ground?

Do you think that there is hope for that being purged, the woke movement being purged from that institution?

Well, I want to be very clear. There are many good men that teach there, same, I can believe, as Southeastern. The problem is that there's... Why is he not being rebuked? Why is he continued to be employed if he doesn't have, say, I've always believed that the heart of the practice hermeneutics is typical meaning of the biblical text, which is embedded in objective truth, not some small, obvious fall that has made some strong statements regarding his...

He talked about the word he used, but he said he will wrestle personally with white supremacy his whole life. In a video where I recently, and maybe not too long ago, where he said, no, no, no, I don't embrace been made in the past.

So I'll tell you what we need. If we're going to be able to have any confidence in other places, is for there to be total transparent to say in these settings, it needs to be full. And until then, there's going to be a shakiness and shakiness that I can tell you 100 messages regarding wokeness.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. If you would like to join us during this midway break, send in a question to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And please be patient with us because this midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize geographically this program and all of their programs to Lake City, Florida.

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Hi, I'm Phil Johnson,.

Host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur. I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

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