May 3, 2021 Show with Tom Buck on “The Woke Hermeneutic: A Cancer in the Pulpit”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this third day of May, 2021, and today we have a guest that I've been wanting to interview again for quite a while because of the timely nature of especially his area of expertise.

He's got many areas of expertise, but one that involves a great danger in the body of Christ, perhaps right now one of the greatest dangers facing the body of Christ that is being taught and believed by professing

Christians, even professing Christians who share, at least claim to share, our theology and our history and our doctrine and our practice.

I'm talking about everything under the umbrella of the Woke Movement, and today's guest is one of the most courageous voices speaking out against this movement, perhaps even specifically in the

Southern Baptist Convention, and might I add that there are still many very fine biblically sound, theologically faithful Southern Baptist congregations that are not collapsing by the weight of the pressure of the left to embrace the

Wokeness Movement, so I have to make sure I make that clear, but it is a growing danger there and other places as well, even amongst those that would call themselves

Reformed, but I'm speaking of Pastor Tom Buck, who is pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, and he's a board member of G3 Ministries, and he's also one of the speakers at the

Wokeness and the Gospel Conference, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth in June, and today we are going to be addressing the

Woke Hermeneutic, a Cancer in the Pulpit. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Tom Buck.

It's good to be with you, Chris. Thanks for having me today, and excited to talk to you this afternoon. Well, why don't you let our listeners know, for those of our listeners who have not yet heard you on this program or elsewhere, let our listeners know something about First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas.

Well, we're located in East Texas, about an hour and a half from Dallas. This church has been here for quite a while, since 1876, so it's a strong Southern Baptist Church here in this part of Texas.

I've been here for just a little over 15 years. I've been senior pastor here, and I'm thankful for the ministry that God's given us, and we are looking forward to continuing to preach the gospel and speak out against anything that's a threat to it, like the movement of Wokeness.

Great, and I understand that your church is a theologically Reformed Baptist Church?

We are. We're Reformed in our Soteriology and Ecclesiology as well, so very thankful for this church and its continued faithfulness to God's Word.

If anybody wants more information about the First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, that website, and I'm hoping that we remember to repeat that later on in the broadcast as well, but the website is

FBC, for First Baptist Church, Lindale, L -I -N -D -A -L -E .com.

That's F -B -C, Lindale .com. Tell us also about G3 Ministries, the organization on which, or one of the organizations on which, you serve as a board member.

Well, G3 Ministries, as you know, began as a conference several years ago, and this last year we have launched beyond a conference of G3 Ministries, where we are wanting to help equip churches.

We're in the process now of growing this, but we'll have our conference every other year, but we are having it this fall,

September 30th through October 2nd, and we are going to be, hopefully, be publishing literature that will be helpful to churches as they grow healthy churches, and then we're also doing expository preaching workshops, which

I'm in charge of, and oversee those, and that is where we train pastors in how to handle the

Word of God rightly and teach them the exegetical skills to preach expository.

So we're thankful. Dr. Josh Bice is the head of G3 Ministries, and it is growing, and we're excited about the coming days and how we will be able to help equip churches.

And you might want to write this down, folks. The next G3 conference, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth, will be in Atlanta, Georgia, once again, and the dates are

September 30th through October 2nd. The website is G3conference .com,

G3conference .com. The theme is Christ is supreme over all, and there will be over 20 speakers at this conference, and you'll be hearing the ads during this program that give you a lot more detail.

Another website to remember, which is basically connected with G3conference .com, is

G3min .org, G -3 -M -I -N, short for ministries .org,

G3min .org. Now, more relevant to our discussion today, there is a

Wokeness and the Gospel conference coming up in Texas, and more specifically in Denton, Texas.

I'm very excited about that for a couple of reasons. Number one is I'm excited to be there at a conference featuring such powerful and gifted speakers on a very important subject like Wokeness and the

Gospel. But also, the conference is being held geographically, very close to where my oldest brother lives, my brother

John, who lives in Justin, Texas, and I have not seen my brother since 1998, since the funeral of our father.

So I am looking forward to be there to see my brother pray for my brother John. He has cancer, he has critical stage emphysema, and he has an inoperable aneurysm.

So he needs your prayer, and he also needs your prayer for salvation. It is not very clear if my brother understands the

Gospel and embraces it, so I'd appreciate your prayers. But also, I'm looking forward to seeing my friend

Mac Tomlinson, who pastors nearby, right in Denton.

Do you know Pastor Mac Tomlinson? I do not. Oh, you gotta get to know him, and I'm hoping he'll be there.

Yeah. He is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and he is a

Reformed Baptist as well. A great guy, a wonderful brother, and I'm sure you would love meeting him.

So, tell us more about the Wokeness in the Gospel Conference and what your specific topic will be there.

Well, we have several speakers. We are subtitling the conference to be on the new moralism and incompatibility with the cross, and we have

Dr. Owen Strand, who is going to be our main keynote speaker, if you will. He has a book coming out very soon.

It should be in July or early August at the latest on the issue of wokeness.

Daryl Harrison will be there as well, and he is with Grace to You Ministries.

He's the dean of social media there, and then he's also one of the voices for the Just Thinking podcast.

Pastor Tommy Nelson, who is the pastor at Denton Bible Church, will be speaking. Several other people, including myself, will be there, and it's

June 11th and 12th, and there's still plenty of time to register. This is going to be an exciting conference that's going to help people get their minds around this topic of wokeness, because a lot of people, just your lay

Christians, are having a hard time understanding what it is, the impact it's having in our churches, and why it's a danger.

Too many people are thinking that it's something that we're making too much of, but it is creeping into the church.

It's already there, and its tentacles are spreading far and wide. Yes, and folks, you might want to take out your calendars and mark down a few important dates, because they are dates that I am going to be interviewing other speakers who are being featured at the

Wokeness in the Gospel conference. Let's see here. On Monday the 17th of May, I'm going to be interviewing

Tommy Nelson, and on the 21st of May, which is a Friday, I'm going to be interviewing

Owen Stran on the book that our brother Tom Buck just mentioned, and on the 25th of May, which is a

Tuesday, I have Rodney C. Brown on the program, and then on Thursday, the 27th of May, I have

Daryl Bernard Harrison returning to the program as well, so mark those dates on your calendar.

If you want me to repeat that later on after the program, just send me an email, and I'll give you the information on those dates and speakers.

Well, the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit. Now, most of my listeners,

I'm sure, understand what a hermeneutic is, but we do have new

Christians listening. We have people outside of the Christian faith. I know this term is not exclusive to Christianity.

Hermeneutic can be used, that phrase or that concept, can be used for any literature inside and outside of Christianity and inside and outside of religion, but tell us specifically what a hermeneutic is, and then tell us what the woke hermeneutic is.

Well, to be as basic as possible, hermeneutic, when we think of biblical hermeneutics, is the method that we use by which to discover the original meaning of the text.

What did Paul mean when he wrote the Ephesians, and whether chapter 1, verses 3 to 12, if we're looking at that, what was

Paul saying, and what does he mean by the words that he wrote?

And so, if we're going to understand what he means, what Christians, evangelicals, for centuries have looked at to understand what the text means is looking back at the historical grammatical hermeneutic, we would call it.

And what we mean by that is that we say, what did the original, what was the original pit of the author, and how would the original audience have understood the meaning of his words?

So we have to examine the grammar of the text to understand the words of that day, both of the original author and the audience, and we have to understand that a text doesn't mean what

I think it means. I can't interpret it through the lens of my own understanding of things, but I have to go back and understand what it meant to them then.

And it can never mean to us now what it did not mean to them then.

The danger with the wo -kermeneutic is that identity of the reader becomes a central part, if not the main part, of understanding what the text means.

So you will begin to hear individuals talk about, or you will hear them talk about today, that you will best understand what the

Bible means when you surround yourself with other people of different ethnicities or a different gender that, for instance,

I've heard it said that by a professor at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, that as a white male,

I will be limited in understanding what the Bible is saying, and I need the voice of others around me.

I need the voices of women. I need the voices of other ethnicities so that in community we can come to understand what the

Bible means. And what

I was saying before about the dangers of this woke movement not only involves people promoting it, which is,

I would imagine, the greatest danger, but there is also a significant danger in the fear that I have witnessed amongst like -minded brethren in all other areas, or most other areas of theology and practice, the great danger of the fear of publicly associating yourself as being an opponent of this movement.

I know people who are perhaps just as opposed to it as you and I are, but they don't want that to be known.

They don't want their sermons that may have mentioned anything negative about it to be recorded or made publicly known.

They don't want to have anything quoted by them in opposition to this.

They want to stay, as far as the public eye is concerned, they want to stay as far away from this issue as they possibly can.

Do you think that in our day and age, Christians who are as opposed to this as we are have the liberty to just stay out of the fight like this?

No, I don't, because it's going to infect, and it is infecting the church.

It's infecting your average church member, and it's a good example of,

I believe it was Spurgeon who said that discernment is not simply knowing the difference between right and wrong, but knowing the difference between right and almost right.

And it sounds almost right when someone says, hey, we need to have other voices, we need to study the

Bible in community. I don't disagree with those things regarding if we are all using the same hermeneutic, where we're looking back to understand the text in its original meaning, not through everybody bringing their own cultural lenses to the table and talking about what a particular text means.

We certainly need, when it comes to application of Scripture, to understand other cultures, understand others' backgrounds, and how we might rightly apply what the text means.

But we've got to be careful, because if this hermeneutic begins to take over, it'll creep into our pulpits, it'll come into sermons, and it'll be so undetectable on the surface that, or at face value, that people will be infected with it before they know it, and they will not know how to study their

Bibles any longer. So we need to be training our people, as a pastor, we need to be shepherding our people to know how to identify between right and almost right.

And I think one of the most dangerous cancers, as you're calling it, in the Church today is this woke hermeneutic.

Now, what would you say, if there are any, let's start off the deeper look into this situation, what would you say are some issues being raised by proponents, advocates, of the woke movement that are healthy and good things that would be wise for the

Church to include in our preaching and teaching, and our books, and our lectures, and our seminaries, that may have been overlooked in years past, or may possibly even opposed in years past?

Is there anything, like for instance, I think you and I would agree that as much as you and I despise most of what is under the umbrella of liberalism, and that is, by the way, folks, different than leftism, they are two different things, but as much as we may despise much of the fruit, the bad fruit of liberalism, we would agree, in fact, we would agree with James, who wrote the

Epistle, that the physical needs of the poor must be taken care of.

We would agree that racism is a sin from the pit of hell, so much so that Moses' sister was struck leprous by God as a punishment or as a chastisement when she was speaking with bigoted thoughts against his

Ethiopian wife, and other places in the Scripture, and in fact, we would include in that, even in the

New Testament, the Judaizers were basically bigots, anti -Gentile bigots, so we see some right things that came out of, they didn't come out of liberalism, but they were championed by liberals when conservatives really should have been championing them.

It shouldn't have been liberals championing integration and all that kind of thing, that it seems that most of the loudest people involved in the civil rights movement were liberals, and even extremely and seriously heretical liberals, and at the very least, their voices were louder and more part of the limelight, if you will, where the conservative voices of those believing in biblical inerrancy and so on were much more quiet, it seems to me, and maybe you could correct me if you think

I'm wrong, but what about the woke movement? Is there anything that the church at large swept under the rug that we should have brought to the surface and highlighted that they are almost exclusively promoting?

Well, I don't know that I would say that they're exclusively promoting, but if I look at the Southern Baptist Convention, which

I'm a part of, there's no doubt that the history of this convention has a period of history and time when there was deep -seated ethnic partiality, ethnic hatred tolerated, ethnic partiality practiced, and that is something that the convention needed to address.

I believe they did. Maybe we did not, you know, maybe it is that we need to look and see if we have addressed it as fully as it needs to be addressed, but the problem with the woke movement is that it comes along and it attempts to deal with the partiality of the past with employing partiality in the present, and it creates greater division rather than bringing about true healing, forgiveness, repentance that leads to forgiveness, all of those things that we see in the gospel.

So you take, for example, that in a particular book talked about removing the stain of racism from the

Southern Baptist Convention, one of those that I believe is steeped in woke ideology, or this, at least, his statement is steeped in what woke ideology purports, and that is that he said the

Southern Baptist Convention will have the stain of racism until Jesus returns.

So there's this perpetual, ongoing penance that needs to be paid rather than there being the offer of forgiveness.

So wokeness does not bring unity. It divides because you can never really be forgiven of the past.

The only way that you're going to be able to move forward is for the white voices, particularly white males, to stop talking and begin to defer to women or to people of different ethnicities.

So there are things, I think, like that, that we need to be promoting the voices of brothers and sisters that have sound theology.

But the way that it's being approached is not a biblical worldview at all. And we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Tom Buck on the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit, send those questions by email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And if you just tuned us in and you want to be more informed about how you write your question, we are interviewing

Tom Buck today, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas.

And our theme is the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit. We are also promoting the Wokeness and the

Gospel Conference. And if you want to find out more about that conference, I think

I may have forgotten to announce the website in my introductory remarks.

It is wokenessandgospel .org, wokenessandgospel .org.

No word the in there, just wokenessandgospel .org. So send us your emails to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is

Tom Buck, Pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, board member at G3 Ministries, and one of the speakers at the

Wokeness in the Gospel Conference in Denton, Texas, coming up next month.

We are speaking about the woke hermeneutic, a cancer in the pulpit, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Before I go to any listener questions,

Pastor Tom, I want you to spell out some of the most crucial areas of great harm to the body of Christ that the woke movement is either consciously or unconsciously promoting and spreading.

Well, one of the areas is the division that it's causing, because rather than uniting, it is dividing the cult up by ethnicity.

It is destroying the oneness, I believe, the understanding, the oneness that we have and the unity we have in Christ, and that he created out of Jew and Gentile, one new man, and it focuses upon our differences rather than focusing upon what unites us in Christ.

I think that when it comes to the topic of woke hermeneutics, one of the greatest damages it's doing is it's preventing people from coming to understand the true meaning of the text, and it's teaching people that the

Word of God can be used like Play -Doh in your hand to be twisted and formed into whatever meaning you want it to be, to support whatever idea you have.

So, those are two of the things that just right off the top of my head when I think of the area I'm speaking on that is critical to the church today.

And we have Russ in Rowlett, or Rowlett, Texas, perhaps you being from Texas know how to pronounce that,

Tom? Rowlett. Rowlett, okay. Russ from Rowlett, Texas. How do you think sexuality will play out in the woke hermeneutic as ministries like Living Out gain traction?

Can you even explain what Living Out is? Well, Living Out is a group that was founded by Sam Mulberry and Ed Shaw, and their goal is to help people that have, in their words, same -sex attraction, who want to live out in the open, that they have that sinful attraction, yet at the same time want to not live the lifestyle that comes along with that.

That being said, there's a lot of issues that are problematic with Living Out, but that would probably be for another time, and I think you and I have talked about this before in the past.

But if we think about it in the terms of woke hermeneutics, it's already beginning to be that the position of someone who is a same -sex attracted to read into the text things that they see from their viewpoint, their standpoint.

So you could take a really extreme example. His first name is

Brandon Robertson, I believe is his name, and he's much further than Living Out. He's an openly practicing homosexual who claims to be a

Christian pastor, and he just recently posted something where that he is interpreting

Jesus' words when he speaks to the woman about even a dog, the

Master gives the dog crumbs, and when she says that to him, and then he says to another individual that, why should

I give to, I think he says to her, why should I give that, which is to dogs what has been for God's people, and he accuses

Jesus of being racist in that passage, because he reads into it. Yes, he's gone public about that.

He reads into that text and says that even Jesus had the racial, ethnic partiality of his day that caused him to call

Gentiles and this particular woman a dog. So, I mean, this is, that's pretty destructive, but the homosexual,

LGBT, whatever letters that you might want to use, are employing this hermeneutic in their camp as well.

So, aren't there varying degrees of wokeism, for lack of a better term, that, in other words, it's not a monolithic group, is it?

I mean, you have those in the group that would say that what you just read, quoted, spoke about, they would agree that it's an abomination and that it's damnable.

Absolutely. So, how is this related to wokeism?

Well, even when it comes to the issue of how you interpret the Scripture, there's going to be a broad spectrum.

The problem is that if you employ this hermeneutic at one level, how do you turn around and tell

Brandon Robertson that he can't apply it at his level? So, let me just define one thing for us, that if we go outside of evangelicalism, we just look at why are they employing this type of hermeneutic.

They're employing it based upon what is called positionality, sometimes it's called standpoint theory, positional theory, but to give a definition from using

Dr. James Lindsay, he says, positionality is the notion that personal values, views, and location in time and space influence how one understands the world.

And he goes on to say, one's gender, race, class, and other aspects of identities act on the knowledge that the person has about things.

So, within critical theory, within wokeness and the worldview, they say that those who have a particular gender or race or class are going to be able to know things and see things and understand things better than other certain gender, race, and class.

For example, a white male does not understand the world as clearly as it really is than, say, a black female, because the black female has experienced certain things in life that give her a perspective to understand things that the white male could never understand.

Does that make sense? Oh yeah. Okay, so now let's just transfer that over to, here now the language in 2017 that Jarvis Williams, the professor at the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, here's what he said about interpreting the

Bible. Remember, Lindsay says, and positionality teaches, that your gender, race, class helps you understand the world.

Here's what he wrote about hermeneutics. He said, I suggest, and I'm quoting,

Bible readers do the following to help arrive at the biblical author's intent.

Rigorously study the Bible with people from different races, ethnicities, social postures, and genders.

Do you hear it? It's right there. It's the same ideology, but it's taking that worldly concept and then it's moving it into the world of hermeneutics and saying, this is how we come to understand what the meaning of the text is.

And so here, yes, would Jarvis Williams disagree with Brandon Robertson? Absolutely. I believe he would emphatically, unequivocally say that Brandon Robertson's interpretation is heretical, but Brandon Robertson is using the exact same technique that Jarvis Williams is using.

Well, by the way, thank you, Russ, in Rowlett, Texas. And I believe you're a first -time questioner.

So if you provide for me your full mailing address there in Texas, you'll receive a free

New American Standard Bible, courtesy of the publishers of the NASB.

And also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com, who ship out all their winners, their free books,

Bibles, and other things that they win by virtue of submitting questions. Thanks a lot. We hope that you submit more questions in the future,

Russ. We have an anonymous listener who says, Some of my closest friends are members and pastors within the

Southern Baptist Convention who fall into that category you mentioned earlier of not being in favor of the woke movement and social justice and intersectionality and all those other heretical concepts, but they are terrified to be public about their opposition to it.

Can you name some of the key figures that would be promoting this stuff that would be typically, or at least in the past, beloved by most conservative

Reformed evangelicals? And also, I tuned in late so I did not hear this, is your church a member of the

Southern Baptist Convention? And do you think that this will ultimately result in a split?

Well, our church is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and there are trusted voices of the past, if you will, that we have looked to be those who would stand strong for the truth who are now seem to be problematic.

So I just mentioned Dr. Jarvis Williams at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and directly quoted him from 2017 where he's pushing a standpoint of a hermeneutic or a wokeness hermeneutic.

You have the same thing happening at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary where Dr.

Danny Akin uses the same type of terminology. And I'll just quote from him.

He says, I've been teaching in either a Bible college or seminary now for over 30 years, and when I teach hermeneutics, one of the things that I point out is that we all have essentially different standpoints.

He then goes on to say that he comes to the Bible, and here, listen to the language of this.

He comes to the Bible as a white male who comes from the deep South which rocks all of convictions.

He goes on to say, I suspect that I read the Bible differently than, say, a lesbian woman of a different ethnicity who lives up in the

Northwest and is committed to a patheistic worldview may view the Bible. Well, I mean, the language that he uses there is gender, class, and race.

It's totally embedded in this type of wokeness hermeneutic or standpoint epistemology.

So we need to wake up and realize that if men are being trained in these seminaries to interpret the

Bible this way, they're eventually going to show up in our pulpit. So I think that if we don't stop this, it is going to split the convention, because those of us who are committed to a faithful interpretation of the

Word of God, we cannot continue to allow this to go on, because it's going to split sooner or later, because it's going to lead to a progression of liberalism in the sense of how the

Bible no longer means what it originally said, but means to whoever's preaching at the moment, and it's extremely dangerous.

Now, one of the seminaries where many faculty members over the history of Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio have been interviewed, and even very recently, is

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. How shaky is the ground that Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is planted on?

I mean, what I see is an amazing thing that a seminary that was plucked, that was rescued from leftism, that nearly destroyed the entire convention, and was rescued and brought back to conservative hermeneutic and biblical inerrancy, of course, even after that, there was always the divide, the very strong and vociferous divide between Calvinists and what they would call the traditional interpretation of Scripture, what we would call

Arminian or non -Reformed. But it seems interesting how that denomination and seminary were rescued from leftism, and the fact that the danger of this movement taking control there is quite astonishing.

How shaky is that ground? Do you think that there is hope for that being purged, the woke movement being purged from that institution?

Well, I want to be very clear, particularly when I talk about Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, there are many good men that teach there, same,

I can believe, as Southeastern. The problem is that there seems to be an unwillingness to directly confront these issues and to correct them when they arise.

So, again, we just go back to Dr. Jarvis Williams. He is an extremely intelligent man.

He knows what that words mean things, and so he wrote this in an article called

Intersection of Anemone and Biblical Interpretation. So why is this not being corrected?

Why is this not, why is he not being rebuked? Why is he continued to be employed if he doesn't have better theological sense than this to teach a, the definition of hermeneutics is absolutely antithetical to what we have always believed, that the heart of the practice of hermeneutics is to seek to arrive at the original meaning of the biblical text, which is embedded in objective truth, not subjective experiences of the reader, but the objective truth that's rooted in the original author addressed to the original audience.

You have Dr. Matthew Hall that has made some strong statements regarding his approval of critical, of issues of critical theory.

He talked about that at one point that he is a white supremacist,

I believe the word he used, but he certainly talked about how he'll, he will wrestle personally with white supremacy his whole life.

Jarvis Williams spoke with him in a video where they both are talking about how

CRT, and Jarvis Williams talks about how knowledgeable Matthew Hall is in CRT.

Now, both of them have been quiet recently, and Matthew Hall wrote an article not too long ago where he said, no, no, no,

I don't embrace CRT, but has never dealt with the statements that have been made in the past.

So I'll tell you what we need. If we're going to be able to have any confidence and be able to escape the shakiness that is at the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Southeastern and other places, is for there to be total transparency about this.

And part of that transparency is to say, what has been said in these settings is absolutely out of line with what we believe theologically, and we have corrected it, and that there needs to be full, open repentance on these issues.

And until then, there's going to be a shakiness in the confidence. Well, let me conclude the question with, the answer of your question with this.

If there's any shakiness that I can tell you 100%, it's my confidence in their institutions based on the lack of transparency and the mixed messages we get in the teaching regarding wokeness and CRT.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. If you would like to join us during this midway break, send in a question to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And please be patient with us because this midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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Thank you again, Rickie. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

Vody Baucom, Justin Peters, Daryl Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. Here's what

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. I have to tell you, I'm one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. As host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

Chris a true friend and man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please never forget, folks, how important solid -ground -books .com

is to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio's existence. They are a premier, a primary, a vital sponsor of this program.

Without the funding that comes through their advertising dollars, we might likely be forced to go off the air.

It is that important to us, barring a miracle from God financially, I don't think that we'd be able to stick around much longer without solid -ground -books .com

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And keep in mind, folks, you're not only going to be doing solid -ground -books .com a favor by buying books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a favor by keeping a major advertiser happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from solid -ground -books .com

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purchase frequently and generously, and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I want to thank all of you who have been doing that, and Mike Gaydosch, the founder of solid -ground -books .com,

is thrilled that many of you have been purchasing books from them, not only on an ongoing basis, but some of you have recently discovered them through this program and have been purchasing many books from them, and I just want to thank all of you from the depths of my heart.

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Before I return to our interview with Tom Buck, who is pastor of First Baptist Church in Lyndale, Texas, board member at G3 Ministries, and one of the speakers at the

Wokeness in the Gospel Conference, I just have a few important announcements to make. First of all, please mark your calendars to attend the

Wokeness in the Gospel Conference. I will be there, God willing, myself,

Manning, and exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from June 11 through the 12th at the

Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas. For more details on that conference, go to WokenessinGospel .org,

WokenessinGospel .org. Also, mark your calendars and register as quickly as possible for the

G3 Conference. The G3, or the three Gs, I should say, stand for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

I think I got them in the right order. It is always an absolutely extraordinary conference, and I'm not exaggerating in the slightest bit.

I'm sure that even my guest Tom Buck can attest to that fact. Isn't the G3 Conference a mind -blowing annual event?

Absolutely is. I was going to the conference before I ever came on the board of G3 Ministries.

It's a highlight of my year, and it's probably the best theological conference that I have ever attended, and I'm thankful for it.

And I felt that way from the beginning, and I'm proud to be a part of it. Amen. Well, thank you for that commendation.

And if you want to join me there, I will be Manning and exhibitors booth there.

This will be my fourth year in a row. Go to g3conference .com. There are over 20 speakers there.

They have, every year, the longest and deepest list of profound and gifted and powerful speakers on their roster.

It's utterly amazing how they are capable of getting such a lineup every year.

And this year, those speakers include the aforementioned Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a dear friend of mine since 1995.

Stephen J. Lawson, Conrad M. Bayway, another very dear friend of mine since 1996, who

I just interviewed last week. Paul Washer, what a powerful preacher he is. John MacArthur, one of my modern -day heroes for certain.

Josh Bice, the founder of the G3 Conference. Anthony Methenia, who is

Paul Washer's pastor. Hensworth Jonas, not a very famous name, especially in broader evangelicalism, and not even in Reformed circles.

But if you don't know Hensworth Jonas and never heard him preach, you've got to discover this man. What an extraordinary preacher he is.

I had the privilege of hearing him preach at my own church, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. What a dear brother in Christ.

I've also interviewed him, and you can look up that interview on the Iron Trippin's Iron website archive.

Just type in the search engine, Hensworth, H -E -N -S -W -O -R -T -H.

I've never interviewed anybody else by that name, so his interview will come up. Justin Peters, my dear friend of many years of Justin Peters Ministries.

It was such a joy to even have him in the studio when I was broadcasting out of WNYG. On Long Island, New York, early on in the history of Iron Trippin's Iron Radio.

Joel Beakey, another dear friend of mine going back to 1991, and Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You Ministries, the ministry of John MacArthur, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker, co -host of the

Just Thinking podcast, and more. That's g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

I also want you to pray, this is a very important prayer request, for Voti Baucom.

You hear in the ads, at least some of the ads, that Voti Baucom is on the roster for the

G3 Conference. Well, now there is a question mark next to that, because I don't know if you've heard, many of our listeners have, but Voti had, unfortunately, a serious health setback, which required quadruple bypass surgery, and thankfully, according to my latest report from Dr.

Conrad Mbewe, who labors with him in Zambia, Africa, at the African Christian University and Kabwatha Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, according to Dr.

Mbewe, who speaks with him every single day, Voti is recovering well, but he is not out of the woods.

So please continue to pray for him, pray that he is strong enough and healthy enough to remain on the roster for the

G3 Conference this fall, and also, much more importantly, that he remains on this planet to bless his family, his wife and children, and the body of Christ for many more years to come on this earth.

What a blessing to the body of Christ. Isn't Voti one of the most powerful and important voices today, Pastor Buck?

Oh, no doubt about it, especially on this particular topic. There's not anybody that understands what's happening better than he does, and so his book,

Fault Lines, that is doing such a fabulous job right now, and even on the charts for popularity and purchase, everybody needs to get a copy of that if they want to understand what's going on in the

Church right now regarding critical race theory and wokeness. Amen. So pray for Voti Baucom.

Also, folks, if you want this program to remain on the air, please go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click

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Please, folks, remember I don't want my listeners siphoning money away from their regular giving to their own local church where they are a member in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

In other words, don't punish your own church financially by blessing us financially. Never do that. Also, if you are really struggling to survive, do not put your family in financial peril by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God and Scripture to provide for your church and family. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God and Scripture.

But, having said that, if you love this show and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands providing for church and family, and you have plenty of money sitting around collecting interest in the bank, plenty of money for recreational purposes, trivial purposes, well, please, if you love this show, please spare some of that money and provide it for us so that we can keep going here and continue this program.

We have between 30 ,000 and 40 ,000 people downloading this program every month, and yet there is a comparative handful of people that give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I want to thank that comparative handful, mind you, from the bottom of my heart for your generosity.

We also could not exist without your generosity. I want to thank all of you who have been giving not only monthly and even more than monthly for many years, and also the new donors that we have.

Thank you so much. But if you haven't given and yet you love this show and you're able to give, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate. Now, finally, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet

Earth, and I've helped many people in our audience from all over the world find churches sometimes right around the corner from where they live.

You might be in that category as well. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

I need a church in the subject line. And I want to thank our listener in Pāhoa, Pāhoa, I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that, or Pāhoa, Hawaii.

I will get to you or we will respond to you with your request for a church as soon as I can.

I hope I'm pronouncing that city right. Merced, California, I will try my best to get you church recommendations near those two areas.

Thank you for submitting those requests. And that's also the email address to send in a question to Tom Buck, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who wants to know, I have heard that the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary's faculty was forbidden to sign the paper on social justice, that Josh Bice was a key figure in drafting.

Is this true? Well, I mean, I can't speak to that personally.

There have been those that have said that they were at least strongly encouraged not to.

Dr. Mohler has said that he did not forbid anyone from signing it. So, at the end of the day, we just have to take individuals at their word.

I don't have any first -hand knowledge one way or the other. Okay, well, I guess it's a sad commentary, though, that people were strongly urged not to sign it.

We have, oh, thank you, by the way, John in Bangor, Maine. We have

Dallas in Lindale, Texas. I attend a Christian college in Jacksonville.

I don't know if that's Florida or Texas. Some of my professors have started talking, let's see, have started talking pro -being woke.

I don't know if that's grammatically correct. What are some things that I can do to help determine what is right and wrong?

Are some questions I can ask? I guess he means what are some questions I can ask to make them think a little bit more about it?

Well, I think that the first thing we need to do is get grounded in the truth. Before we try to understand an ideology that's worldly,

I think we've got to get a Biblical worldview. If we don't have a sound, solid Biblical worldview where we understand what the

Scriptures teach, we are not going to be able to really address or even recognize when something comes up that is faulty.

And so the place to begin is that. Know the Word of God so that you'll be able to not only recognize it, but then you will know how to speak to those things.

For example, if someone begins this very common within wokeism to talk about how that we need to be practicing partiality, they might not use that language, but they might say something to the effect that if we're going to be able to move forward, that we've got to have those who are of this particular ethnicity be silent and allow the voices of this particular ethnicity to be platformed and become more prominent.

Well, that is a view of partiality. What makes someone right or wrong is not based upon the color of their skin, their ethnic background, whatever that may be.

God's Word is the standard for everything. So we need to be able to recognize when somebody's speaking language that's antithetical to what

Scripture says, for example, with partiality. So I would begin by getting to know your Bible better, and then you'll be able to recognize views of the world that are incorrect and be able to address them better.

Thank you, Dallas. And I believe you are a first -time questioner. Please give me your full mailing address so that you can receive a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the

CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who always ship out our winners their

Bibles and books and other products because of their submitting questions. Thank you so much,

Dallas. Now, I have said on this program before in relationship to this topic, and perhaps you can either clarify, confirm, or even reword what

I said or refute what I said, but I believe that some of the key areas here of sin that the woke movement is championing, and two or three of the main reasons why

Bible -believing Christians should reject this movement is that it involves slandering people, accusing them of being guilty of sins that might have never even entered their mind.

We're all sinners, but not everybody is racist, and certainly that is not a part of their genetic code or something by sheer virtue of their melanin content.

So it's about bearing false witness and slandering. It's also about vengeance.

I believe that a lot of this seems to be nothing more than vengeance, a promotion of the fact that this country is guilty for having practiced chattel slavery for centuries, and we, even after the

Civil War, continued or began the

Jim Crow laws in the southern states of this country, and bigotry and prejudice obviously is a national and global thing in some sense, but people are, basically, it sounds to me, even if they would never word it this way, they're purely wanting to take revenge, and the vengeance, ironically, that they want to take has as its victims people who have nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow or racism of any shape or form.

I'll give you an example. My family, my mother's family, came from Poland in the 1930s,

I believe, or actually 20s, perhaps. My father's side of the family came from Norway on his father's side and settled in Brooklyn in the 1860s.

My ancestors did not own slaves. If any of my father's ancestors owned slaves, they would have been white because they would have been

Vikings. So why would I be held responsible for this or anybody else in this country who had nothing to do with this, even if their parents or grandparents, well, obviously not their parents at this point in time, but their grandparents were slave holders.

What does that have to do with them now? Isn't this about, to a large degree, slander, vengeance, and eclipsing the gospel?

Absolutely. In fact, one of the things that it does is, whether it is intentional or unintentional, it leads to the coddling of sin rather than the confrontation of sin within the hearts of those who feel that they have been mistreated or marginalized.

So they nurse grievances, for example, rather than being taught to extend forgiveness, whether that other person comes to honestly deal with whatever issues you think they're guilty of or not.

It creates an environment, as you've already pointed out, that it slanders someone and calls them a white supremacist.

Maybe someone who's not had a racist thought at all, but they're called a racist simply because they are identified with a particular ethnic group.

There's nothing in Scripture that would point to that being a

Christlike, gospel -centered way of viewing our world. So I believe that it perpetuates sin.

It even excuses sin. Let me give you one example. Dr. Carroll was speaking at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

He was brought in to teach the Latino hermeneutic, and so he was teaching about how to understand the

Bible through the lens of a Hispanic immigrant. So he takes the story of Abram and Sarah when they're at the border of Egypt, and as you know,

Abram lies about who Sarah is, his sister, and all of the problems that leads to.

Well, here's what he says. If you want to understand, he says, the true meaning of the text, you put on the

Latino migrant lens, and let me quote, he says, desperation yields audacious, even scandalous action.

If you have to lie or put people in danger to get across the border, then that is what must,

I'm still quoting, must be done. Survival is the end game. Too much is at stake to have reasoned moral discussion to decide between easy solutions.

So that's how he's interpreting the deceptive acts of Abraham. Rather than saying it was sinful, he excuses those actions because that's what migrants, immigrants, as he says, are forced to do because of the circumstances of the oppressors who oppress the migrants coming across the border.

Now just think the damage that that does. Rather than calling upon someone to repent of their sin of lying, repent of their sin of deception, you tell them, no, it's okay to lie in certain circumstances if you can excuse it based upon your standpoint of what you're experiencing in your own life.

It's dangerous what's taking place. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, and she wants to know, should one leave a church only because it may have been overcome by woke teaching, even though all of the other theology and practice involved may be biblical?

Well, I think that's an oxymoron, if you will. If someone is totally overtaken with wokeness, their theology is no longer biblical.

I don't mean that to be smart -aleck at all, the person who's asking the question. But I agree with Owen Strand.

You can ask him this, and he'll answer it the way I've heard him say it publicly, that if you're involved in the church that's been overcome with wokeness, you need to find another church.

Now, first you go and you ask questions to see if maybe you're misunderstanding things, but if it truly is employing the ideologies of wokeness, it is anti -gospel.

So they're at the very best, they're speaking out of both sides of their mouth. So I think that if a church is overtaken in it, and it has left

Orthodox doctrine, and it is going to infect every area of theology in that church eventually, it's already against sound theology.

Thank you, Susan Margaret. Keep listening in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, and spreading the word about Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, Have you heard responses from proponents of the woke movement?

To the question how they, as Bible -believing Christians and believers in inerrancy, could publicly align themselves with those that hate

Christ and his word and the gospel, to a much larger degree than their own brothers and sisters in Christ, and side with them on issues such as the woke movement.

How do they even respond to such a thing? Well, I think that they would say that's not what they're doing.

I think what they would say is that the issue, let's just take the issue of reparation.

That particular issue would be argued by some within the woke movement that, well, that's just a biblical concept.

Again, this is how they twist the scriptures with the woke hermeneutics.

They say, Well, look at Zacchaeus. He is one who, once he gets his heart changed for the gospel, is willing to pay reparation.

And so they say, We're employing something that's already taught in the gospel, it's already taught in the scriptures, so we're not aligning ourselves with the world.

But the problem is, to get to where they are, they twist what the Word of God says, because Zacchaeus was not repaying based upon what his ancestors did.

His children weren't asked, or his grandchildren asked, to repay what he had stolen from others.

He took personal responsibility. But yet they take text like that, and they assuage their conscience to say,

I'm not aligning myself with a lost concept, lost world, I should say, and their concepts.

This is embedded already within scripture. So I think they're self -deceived, to be honest with you.

Well, in that same vein, I'm not going to mention the person only because I don't have the direct quote, the exact wording in front of me, so I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth.

But there's a key proponent of wokeism that has publicly said that he has to be more concerned about his alliance with those of the black race, or those with black skin, than those who share his

Christian faith. Isn't that an absolutely abhorrent worldview and mindset?

Yeah, I don't have the exact quote either. I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember reading that when he publicly said that.

I hope and pray that if we were to interview him that he would clarify that, not meaning what it certainly sounds like it means.

But yes, he said very clearly that, at least if we take his words at face value, that he, first and foremost, is going to relate to this world according to the color of his skin.

That is totally antithetical to the gospel, especially when you read that there's neither Jew nor Gentile, there's not

Barbarian or Scythian. Those things are no longer our identity. Our identity is in Christ alone.

In fact, if you want to go with what Peter said, we are of a chosen race.

We are of a new race that is made up of Jew and Gentile that has nothing to do with our worldly ethnicity at all.

So it's anti -gospel in every aspect. Now one thing that I would love to ask folks that are proponents of wokeism is that if they find, and obviously we would share their assessment, that chattel slavery,

Jim Crow movement, overt racial hatred, and even hidden racial hatred of any kind, this is all an abomination.

So in their worldview, where it seems that they desire those with white skin and those who are heterosexual men to be treated exactly in the abhorrent way or close to it, that Blacks, tragically, with the treatment with which

Blacks and other minorities have experienced in this country, how long is that supposed to go on before it is an exact mirror image of what happened in the past?

I don't even understand how they could be advocating it because what's the difference between whites being treated in a

Jim Crow -like fashion than Blacks? Am I making sense here or am

I rambling? I don't think you make total sense, but they're trying to correct partiality of the past, of course, you know, egregious partiality and wickedness, with partiality in the present.

And the only way that we correct sin of the past is righteousness from this point forward.

And we don't deal and correct the unrighteous acts of the past with unrighteous acts in the present.

But again, the worldview's driving this. I think what some of them might say is that, well, we're not saying that there needs to be some type of Jim Crow laws or something of that nature in treatment of whites, but I think what they're saying is that the entire system that is set up, that was built to oppress

Blacks, that still today every white person benefits from and every Black person lives under the oppression of that.

And so that the system has got to be totally destroyed. And there has to be a new system that is a new equity, if you will, that would be established where that is no longer based upon white males, but it's a plurality of ethnicities and an equality among both genders and so forth and so on.

So they set this world view up to say we've got to, the only way we can undo the past is to totally destroy the systems that are around today because of what happened in the past.

But it seems though that some, I'm not saying that every single person who claims a woke worldview is saying this, but it seems fairly dominant, at least in the media and the public eye, that some of the things that they advocate now are indeed mirror images of Jim Crow.

Like for instance, Blacks getting preferential treatment who have applied for any job in any career, having preferential treatment over whites.

Patients in hospitals, a Black person perhaps with a sprained wrist will get preferential treatment in the hospital over a white man having a heart attack.

We could go on and on. And it seems that Asians are included as victims of this discrimination or bigotry.

So isn't that just a smokescreen that they're saying that they're not mirroring Jim Crow and other atrocities of the past?

Absolutely, I agree. That's why when I say partiality, correcting the partiality of the past with partiality in the present.

It's not righteous. God forbids it. But they believe that, well, if we're 100 years behind and whites are 100 years ahead, the only way to fix that is if we employ these practices that are partiality in order to get an even playing field.

Well, that's not biblical at all. And the only way to correct it is for us to begin living righteously where we no longer treat one another with partiality.

Paul, or not Paul, but James didn't say when he said, you're showing partiality to the rich over the poor.

He didn't say, well, what you need to start doing next week is give the best seat to the poor and make the rich sit on the floor.

That's not how he addressed the issue, to counteract the partiality. How you deal with it is you stop being partial across the board.

That's the only way you correct it. So there's nothing in Scripture whatsoever that would substantiate what they are trying to employ regarding fixing this problem that they see in the world.

Now, one of the things that adds credibility to the charge that this woke -ism is really primarily, not exclusively, but primarily an invention of the evil minds of white leftists, even though there are many black voices who are a part of it, that it's primarily a white phenomenon, a white driven phenomenon.

One of the evidences of that to me, and I've brought this up in other programs, but the issue of homosexuality and everything under the umbrella of LBGTQ being brought into this conversation about woke -ism,

I, before moving to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, lived in New York my whole life. And one thing that I found very interesting is that the majority of black folks, especially professing black

Christians, but not necessarily exclusively Christians, but it seemed that the black community, by and large, in general,

I mean, just like everybody else, they're individuals, they don't all think in lockstep, but it seemed that the majority, no matter how liberal they may have voted, and no matter how liberal the political candidates are that they supported, or perhaps they're actually a political figure themselves, an elected official that has many liberal views and elements to a worldview, they seem to be, though, however, in spite of all that, very opposed to same -sex marriage and issues that support homosexuality.

It seems like a real disconnect there. I don't know if that's your experience in the

South, but that's what I've witnessed growing up in New York. Any comments about that?

No, absolutely. There is this desire to want to employ the ideology of critical theory to the aspect of ethnicity or race, and ignore the fact, and they are even moving into the gender issue, like with egalitarianism.

What they don't realize is that the social justice train and the train of wokeness, it has not just the issue of race as one of the boxcars, but it has the issue of egalitarianism, and it has the

LGBT issues with it. They all go together, because the ideology looks at who are considered the marginalized and the oppressed, and those that are marginalized and oppressed have to be, their voice is more important, has to be elevated, and so those who are cisgender, for instance, those who are heterosexual, those are the oppressors of all of those within the

LGBT community. So what they're wanting to do is they're wanting to employ an ideology that pulls all of that baggage with it, and piecemeal it out and say, we can only apply it to the race category.

That's problematic, because they're not going to be able to be successful in that, because that same ideology plays right across the board.

Our only hope is to apply the scriptures as being sufficient to address each and every one of these areas, and the moment that we allow an ideology to come in, as Paul warns, it will take us captive, and it will lead us down a path that will be destructive to the gospel.

And we have to go to our final break. Send in your email now with a question if you intend to, because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least. City and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. We'll be right back. Hello, dear ones.

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Welcome back. Tom Bucks, before we take any more listener questions, if you could summarize that which you believe to be most essential, what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this topic,

Wokeness in the Gospel, before we depart the program today? Well, I think that, as I mentioned earlier,

Colossians 2 -8, that Paul commands that we not be taken captive by worldly ideologies. And we've always got to be on the alert for worldviews that enter the

Church that are a threat against the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not enough that we stand for what is the truth, we have to fight against that which is an assault upon the truth.

So you need to get educated in what we're talking about. This is not something that is a side issue or an issue that's being overblown.

It's not a real threat. You need to get up to speed. You need to be reading on this so you can understand it and articulate it in an intelligent, informed way.

So I commend people to read Bodie's book on Fault Lines. I commend them to get

Owen Strand's book that's out, will be coming out later. But above all, I encourage everybody to attend, if they can, the

Wokeness in the Gospel conference. It's going to be in Ditton, June 11th and 12th, just coming up in a few weeks.

It'll be worth every minute of your time, and you'll be able to walk away having your mind around what is the problem, what is the threat to the gospel, and how do

I arm myself to fight against that threat to the

Church of Jesus Christ. And we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, who says, keep in mind

I am not in total agreement with many of my independent Baptist fundamentalist friends, especially those that are anti -Calvinist and King James only.

But there is a truth that they repeat, that fellowship with darkness is nothing that should be a part of a

Christian life. How do you and your fellow Southern Baptists who remain in that denomination defend being a part of that denomination when there is so much horrible and ugly teaching permeating the group?

Well, I am thankful that there is pushback. It seems to be taking place even within the convention, and I want to just quickly say that I'm thankful that Dr.

Mohler and the other presidents did issue a statement that critical race theory is not compatible with the

Baptist faith and message. I do think it needs to go further, and we need to root out anyone who is correct, if they're not willing to be corrected, or root them out if they are going to continue teaching it.

But I admit that I've struggled with this because it would be easier to walk away.

It would be much easier in many respects to do that. But one of the things that has caused me to have hope is the resurgence, the conservative resurgence that took place in the past, that we will be able to stand and bring about a new resurgence to push out these ideologies that have taken root in some areas.

And there's $60 billion worth of assets that is possessed by the Southern Baptist Convention, and I'm just not ready yet to walk away and leave those assets behind.

I would rather do what we can to retain those to be used for the good of the kingdom, rather than being turned over to eventually watch things drift in a direction that is going to be,

I think, as liberal as it was back when the conservative resurgence occurred. So everybody has to, their own conscience, make that decision.

I know that there are some that have already departed, but we're doing what we can to try to rescue what the convention like it has been done in the past.

And let's see here, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who asks, what is, in your opinion, the greatest summary of an apologetic against those that are proponents of the woke movement that you can tell them to reassure them that you are indeed not a racist, but that they are promoting, even if unconsciously, racism and bigotry themselves?

Well, I think that, you know, I don't know if there's one particular passage, but I would say for sure that when

Paul tells us that there's neither Jew nor Gentile, there's neither male nor female, he says neither barbarian or Scythian, when we look at the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is something that unites us, that focuses not upon our differences, and certainly doesn't focus upon our ethnicities is what defines us.

What defines us is that we are one in Christ. And so when I look at someone of a different ethnicity, what matters to me should not be the color of their skin or their ethnic background, but do they know the

Lord Jesus Christ? If they are, then I'm one with them. I know long, when we come and we sit around the

Lord's table, all of those things disappear when we gather around the

Lord's table, because our oneness is based in our identity with Jesus Christ.

So you're either in Adam or you're in Christ, and therefore

I look at anything that divides us in the church away from our oneness in Christ is antithetical to the gospel and is in and of itself inherently wicked.

Well, I want to thank you for doing such an excellent job on a very controversial issue,

Pastor Tom. I want to remind our listeners that the conference that we've been speaking about,

Wokeness and the Gospel, which is being held in Denton, Texas, you can find out more about that conference at Wokenessandgospel .org,

Wokenessandgospel .org. And once again, the dates for that conference are

June 11th and 12th. I intend to be there. I am scheduled to man an exhibitor's booth there, and I hope that as many of you as possible can join me there.

Also, if you want more information about the First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, where Pastor Tom Buck is the pastor, go to FBCLindale .com,

F -B -C for First Baptist Church, L -I -N -D -A -L -E .com. And of course, don't forget about the

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, September 30th through October 2nd, where I will also be manning an exhibitor's booth and the conference for which

Tom Buck is on the board of directors. Go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com.

Thank you so much, Pastor Tom, for being my guest today. I look forward to many frequent returns by you to this program.

I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who took the time to write. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater