WLC & Molinism then More from Russell Moore's interview with Andy Stanley

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:34

Well greetings, welcome to the dividing line unusual time unusual day. I just mentioned on Facebook basically,

00:42

I looked at my calendar and realized oops, I Sort of forgot how I had scheduled things.

00:48

It's you know, we got back just well less than 24 hours ago from the cruise in Alaska and so It's easy when you've been gone that many days to Completely become discombobulated as to what you're doing and when you're supposed to be doing it.

01:04

So I said, hey the nice thing about doing the dividing line is we do it when we want to do it and We don't have a network we have to contact and it all ends up in Serenadio and voila you end up with a

01:17

With the dividing line in your iTunes feed or however else you do it And I have to remind myself.

01:22

I need to talk a little more quietly today. Yes, I did I realized

01:28

I was picking up a little something on the boat, but I was fighting it and it didn't impact me at all

01:35

But once we got to the airport and stuff, I knew yeah, yeah, we're it's nothing major I still did a 50 mile bike ride this morning, but I can feel it it yeah, when you spend that much time in airplanes and on ships and shaking hands and Talking to people

01:55

You're gonna come down with something, but we'll hopefully fight it off fairly Fairly quickly, so I had so much that we need to get to Stay quiet James.

02:06

You don't have to talk so loudly. There's a microphone right there Since we have so much to get to it doesn't go any farther.

02:13

Oh, no, it doesn't If I pull it a farther it goes This does

02:22

Anyway We've been on the ship together too long, that's all

02:28

I can say just you know, you know, whatever too much to get to and couldn't allow some of these things to languish too much longer without getting to them, but Don't like to start off on on a negative note, but have to make mention

02:50

Ah One of the mornings on the on the the cruise

02:56

I got up and I Saw a notification on Facebook those of you who watched the

03:06

Presentations on Facebook that was not planned by the way, none of us had had the idea that the onboard

03:13

Wi -Fi would actually work well enough to You know, especially while at sea to make that happen, but that's what that's what we did and So some of you may have heard me discuss this briefly

03:30

On One of the last sessions. I'm not sure if you if it might have been the last session.

03:35

I'm not sure But I saw a notification from Jeff Durbin a lot of you know

03:43

Apollygia and the church over there I saw a notification when

03:48

I got down to my cabin one morning about the totally unexpected passing of a very young member of Apollygia Sarah Arrington I Immediately contacted my daughter and found out that yes.

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She of course knew her. She was evidently just a servant servant just Seven children

04:18

And An infant that was only three weeks old and the theory is that it was a blood clot from the birth that You know, they don't know yet, but they'll make they may find out

04:32

Whatever it is the schedule Later in the week as to when we say we're gonna do a dividing line

04:41

Thursday or Friday that's gonna be totally dependent upon when that funeral is

04:46

I'm gonna do everything I can to be there and But just a just a

04:53

You know, I don't what you're supposed to say is just a tragic situation. What is tragedy? What what does that mean how do

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Christians address something like this I I Contacted Jeff who also was out of town when this happened.

05:07

That's very difficult Both I think Jeff and Luke were up in Iowa as I recall and That made it very difficult for them.

05:16

I'm sure as well but You know what what can

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I do in a situation like that and so I offered about the only thing that I can offer He's got a lot of work to do this week.

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It's always tough when you're gone at all And then when you have something like this and all the arrangements and the funeral itself and just just wipe you out

05:42

So I will be speaking at Apologia on Sunday and at PRBC So I'm doing morning

05:49

PRBC afternoon Apologia evening Let's hope the traffic is good from Tempe to Phoenix in the evening because I'll be doing all three services and we'll be trying to address as best

06:07

I can the You've died and your life is hidden with Christ and God what how do we live that out in situations like this, so Please pray for the

06:18

Arrington family. There is a link if you do some searching. I May have already shared it on my list.

06:25

In fact, I did. Yeah There is a link for for helping out because obviously, mr.

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Arrington seven kids and a three -week -old infants and I Times like that.

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This is really where your theology will determine how you Deal with these situations. I'm not gonna

06:46

I don't have the energy to go into What I probably should at this time

06:53

You know, I wrote a book on grieving but it really wasn't meant to address this aspect it was very very practical it wasn't meant to be a theological tome, but How Well, our theology will determine our apologetics and our theology will determine how we view the providence and will of God and It's amazing how many times

07:21

Something like this will cause people who in the rest of their theology Don't have any room for the sovereignty of God And it's all about the autonomy of man

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But you have something like this happen and all of a sudden we're quoting Romans 8 28 right and left well, there's a theology under Romans 8 28 and There's such a disconnect for many people to try to move from I live my life without believing the absolute sovereignty of God and the will of God and I live my life asserting the

07:57

Autonomy of man and then all of a sudden when I'm faced with the deep and dark and difficult times.

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I Can't find any comfort in the autonomy of man because there isn't any there's no purpose.

08:13

There's no reason and You know when we talk about trusting

08:19

God even in the dark times why would you trust

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God If he didn't see this coming, what are you trusting him for to just try to make something good come out of this

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I Mean this here this especially is where I find open theism to just be repulsive to me

08:42

Can you imagine the open theistic God right now? Oh Man, what am I gonna do?

08:49

I I don't even know what to say about something like that. You have to live out your theology at this time

08:56

You have to you have to When you're talking about trusting God Trust him to do what

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You know this is where you really you enter into the depth of the character of God in Having to recognize that there are depths to his purposes and his intentions that are beyond what we can begin to understand and that's where That the childlike element of the faith comes in that is based upon a commitment that his character is such

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I'm gonna trust him even in these incredibly dark times but then it's also where the very depths of faith and maturity of faith comes in to know his character to know that we can trust him in that way and to see

09:41

Back as you look back through your life how many times? you saw his character being

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Illustrated to you and how many times you learned the lessons that you? Said at the time you'd never forget and we often we often do so prayers for the

09:59

Arrington family Paula Guia for Pastors Durbin and Pearson and their their work amongst the people there, you know,

10:08

I Jeff and I are supposed to be in Australia The end of next month, you know barely

10:13

I think it's right out a little little over a month for me Well, it's what's what's yeah a month from tomorrow month from tomorrow

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And I I've tried to tell folks Jeff Goes morning noon and night.

10:30

I don't know how he does it If he's not careful pretty soon he's gonna look older than me

10:36

Because he is going morning noon and night and with that beard he'll look like Moses.

10:45

Thank you rich How do you know exactly what

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Moses look like you and you know this see speculation it's dangerous thing theological speculation going on on the other side of the window, it's a

11:03

Dangerous thing one of the things by the way that that summer told me was she never missed an episode of the dividing line and That means means the world to me and So our audience is lesser today than it was before so Appreciate Everything God's given to us appreciate every day

11:31

Appreciate every person in your life You just never know and the fact is folks.

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We look at a situation like this and it's just oh a young mother and seven children every time any one of us gets into that rolling contraption of gears and Flammable liquids and plastics and metal and go hurtling down the road

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We so take God's goodness for granted. We so take his safety for granted

12:06

And something like this happens. We say I'll never do it again Yeah, I've said that too many times myself you will you will so anyway prayers for the

12:19

Arrington family, please Another one of those incredibly difficult situations that Just you you don't know what words to say and at times like this to be honest with you the only words that avail at times like this were the words that were spoken and Taught and believed in the years before this

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Now is not the time to be playing catch -up There will be time later on for application

12:48

There'll be time later on for questions, but the words that mean the most are the words you've come to believe before the tragedy strikes and I think that's an important thing to keep in mind.

13:00

So I Want to get to stuff that happened

13:09

While we were gone pretty much right as we left Some more stuff developed in the

13:16

Andy Stanley Frank Turek Norman Geisler What is the church?

13:21

What is apologetics? What is the relationship the church to the Bible those of you who know church history and Certainly as people are going to be

13:37

Maybe rereading some books or doing some fresh reading between now and October of next year over the next year for the anniversary the 500 anniversary of the

13:45

Reformation this issue will come up and If you read about the Reformation you will discover very very quickly

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That much of what calls itself quote -unquote Protestantism non Roman Catholicism today bears very very little resemblance to the

14:02

Reformation Especially on foundational issues and especially regards the relationship of Scripture nature of Scripture And relationship

14:11

Scripture and the church what we are getting from the mere

14:18

Christianity folks the evidentialists from my perspective, here's my thesis if you have a

14:27

Unbiblical theology regarding the nature of God Which is what?

14:32

Arminianism is it's going to result in a sub biblical apologetic and Then that's going to decay the highest view of Scripture These things go together and the high view of Scripture that especially

14:52

Became part and parcel of the apologetic of the Reformation against Rome see vast majority of evidentialists never deal with Rome They never deal with Rome.

15:01

They don't deal with Rome's Best apologists they don't do deal with Rome's best Argumentation and I I don't think it's surprising that you know a number of the folks we're talking about now have connections to SES and You know

15:17

Norman Geisler has come out in defense of Andy Stanley and Where where did all those people convert to Rome from?

15:24

There's a reason for this. It's it's a holistic thing. There's connections. You know, you can you can try to dismiss them go

15:29

Oh, no. No, that's nothing to do with that. No, we no. No, that's nothing. It's it's there. There's a reason for it the high

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In -depth view of Scripture that came out of the Reformation is not generally a part of Arminian synergistic

15:44

Stuff. I mean just look at Roger Olson. I Mean his view of Scripture is so low

15:51

How low can it go is really the question it is so low in comparison to even to be honest with you if you look at the clash the post -reformation class clash between the

16:02

Jesuits and The Calvinists basically or the Lutherans there were some

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Lutherans out there Chemnitz was out there doing this thing, too, but You look at that the clash the view of Scripture was held by both sides considerably higher considerably higher than that Which is hold by held by Roger Olson by by a long shot and so Many times the

16:34

Arminian position as I said, the Arminians that the best the Arminians have to offer tend to be extremely

16:46

Philosophical in their orientation first and foremost and so they end up with a very much less than Reformation level view of Scripture and you'll see that if you will be doing some reading in preparation for The celebration of the

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Reformation coming up so a Lot of this stuff developed

17:11

While we were away, and I haven't had a chance to address it, so I'm gonna get to that But first I wanted to play a clip

17:19

That I did manage to download while on the ship we had Gotta admit the the

17:25

Internet's gotten better and better It's amazing what I was able to do bouncing off satellites, that's

17:32

That's something um, but I I grabbed The Reasonable faith podcast questions on the moral argument and animal suffering

17:45

I Just happen to look over and notice that was title and I actually played this

17:51

I Played I don't remember if it was right at the beginning of a session or before a session

17:57

I don't remember which on the on the ship so some of you may have heard it But a lot of you weren't able to necessarily follow all that so Was it a part of a session?

18:05

Yeah, didn't do a long a Long period of time

18:11

I noticed that one of the Co -hosts of a particular podcast which will remain nameless is whining

18:22

In the in the chat channel It's not like and then he uses my Nick is exactly fallen over himself to tune into their webcast and I'm wondering if I have a video of the little the little violin playing anywhere

18:40

I'm not sure that I do, but I'd only play it for him his other co -host Well his other co -hosts trying to take over the chat channel so the two of them together

18:49

I'm not sure what's going on there Anyway having been distracted by Opening up the the channel there.

18:56

Oh by the way one last thing Thanks to everybody who was in the group on the cruise. It was a great group.

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We had a great time together There was great questions. You know one night we had decided

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That we were gonna Not have an evening thing. I forget what what what it was why it was or whatever, but I Said well, you know

19:18

I'd like to I'd like to do a little more. I'd like to talk about a particular subject a little bit more and So we didn't even have the room scheduled so we went out

19:27

Outside and it was raining and so we had to be undercover and had to get blankets out

19:35

I'd still say the vast majority of everybody came out even for that and Had great questions, and we're you know

19:42

I never got interrupted by a falling asleep even though the ship was sometimes rocking Though it was super smooth sailing

19:50

I mean in comparison to everything that bet in the past That was that was nothing we had one night where There was a little rockin and rollin going on and that was that was about it

20:01

I have to say in it was wonderful to kind of feel like you can just put a bookmark in the calendar and time stands still and It really was the

20:12

I feel the consummate definition of a retreat It was wonderful to be able to just get away

20:19

Look at the tasks in front of us before God and at the same time have wonderful fellowship

20:26

It was and I know Marianne absolutely loved being on on as well. Yeah Yeah, my son was along he went down a record -length zip line got some good pictures of that and Yeah, it was beautiful.

20:40

It was great and Lots of encouraging statements made to me yesterday as we were parting the ship about how much the ministries meant to people and made some good friends and Basically everybody came along found out that rich, and I are pretty much

20:57

What you see is what you get member of the old whizzy wig remember what whizzy wig meant what you see is what you get other than The utterly shocked looks on some people when

21:09

I did show up formal night in my kilt Formal kilt They thought that was a myth that that was a story

21:18

Oh, they're really shocked what happened and it's like new. Nope. I I have two of them and There are pictures on Facebook my wife and I and my son and that that that be a kilt that was made at McKenzie's menswear in downtown

21:37

Glasgow it is Formal and it is wonderful. Yes, sir that you actually came in afterwards and taught the next session

21:45

In that kilt was on Facebook and people were like I never actually thought that was real.

21:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like It's the only time I ever get to wear it No one's asked me to perform a wedding in it yet Just wait till you get the first email says so You were

22:08

Scottish would would Would James White? Officiated our wedding and a kilt.

22:14

Yeah Well, we'd have to match the colors though. You can't have clashing tartans That would be that would be bad.

22:22

But anyways We got somebody in channel saying I got married in my formal kilt.

22:27

Well, very good I wish I had had one back then But I was only 19 and I didn't know anything about my heritage much at that point in time

22:35

So didn't have one but great folks. Thanks for the encouragement It was it was a great time

22:41

Michael Fallon got some incredible pictures. I got some incredible pictures I thought a lot of the pictures I took it at Hubbard Glacier and that I've been to Hubbard three times

22:51

That was the best viewing of Hubbard. I've ever seen that was we had some great calving and what people just don't

22:59

Cannot begin to conceive of they've never been to a 70 mile long glacier Is that that is one whopping piece of ice and when it cracks

23:13

My wife kept saying it's gonna rain there's thunder. No, dear. That's the ice seriously

23:18

I mean when you put your glass you put ice in a glass and you pour something over it you hear that little cracking going on make that ice cube 70 stinking miles long and it's like thunder and We saw a calving take place which is where you know

23:36

This part comes off. And of course, there's a sound delay but the the thing is 300 feet tall and So the chunk that comes down, you know this big old huge wave that comes off and then

23:48

I saw the the resultant explosion upward shoot ice above the top of the

23:54

So is over 300 feet in the air. That was amazing. Yeah, it's just just unbelievable I thought the second time

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I saw Hubbard it was raining and foggy and it was just sort of So I was a little worried given the weather as we were sailing in but we got some

24:11

Sun came out and oh I was able to get a panoramic shot.

24:16

Yeah, I got a panoramic shot too. Yeah. Yeah, we got some good good shots. So Anyways, it was a great great time.

24:24

I have been instructed and this is this is important My My daughter

24:35

I Don't know how she changed that name there. That's interesting Anyways, my daughter wants to make sure that everyone understands that I wasn't talking about her podcast when

24:46

I was talking about these other people because They are not these there.

24:52

There's something that's different than the other Yes, one of these things is definitely not like the that's exactly right and So she's just started her own podcast.

25:02

And so I guess I'm doing what any good father would do in advertising that But she wanted to make sure we differentiate it between See someone just asked her you have a podcast now

25:14

So she will have to answer and and provide the link if there is a link yet It's so new so yes yesterday

25:23

I was not talking about you I want to make sure that You would realize I would never ever confuse you especially with that one guy in that one podcast

25:32

Who's huh? Yeah, I wasn't gonna necessarily say who but everybody knows anyway

25:41

All right on to serious things William Lane Craig I've been criticized

25:52

If you can believe that someone would actually criticize me. Actually, I'm criticized for breathing wrong by most people and I'm gonna have to Minimize Twitter now to just stay on track.

26:08

I have been criticized for some of for repeatedly reading

26:15

What's still posted from William Lane Craig? Concerning God's got to deal with the cards.

26:23

He's been dealt and the whole what's called the grounding issue in regards to the claims of Molinism and Well, you know

26:36

Either on the one side to get people well William Lane Craig. It doesn't really speak for all Molinists type thing Or what?

26:42

You're not really representing. Dr. Craig. Well, I think I am I really really do think that I am accurately representing what he's meaning there and I think he confirmed that in The most recent podcast right at the end of the podcast and again, this is the kind of thing

27:02

The link that was sent to me, especially given I was on ship and hence It's not as fast as Internet as I have at home

27:11

Obviously and there are times when it's faster and times when it's slower and things like that but Having a direct link so I can go straight to it and grab it quick and stuff really helpful

27:22

So whoever sent this to me, sorry, I don't remember who does it but thank you. You can feel good about this,

27:28

I guess I want to play Dr. Craig's comments at the end of Responding to a a letter and again, it's on the problem of evil

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Theodicy and again, if you've heard that term before theodicy theos

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God and Then dikayo the justification of God in light of the existence of evil.

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That's what theodicy is and Theodicy is a key

27:58

Apologetic issue and if you want to one really clear way of differentiating

28:04

The camps in apologetics is how do they do deal with the problem of evil?

28:11

How they deal with the issue of evil. I remember last Not last week. Remember the week before last when we played

28:18

My response to David Silverman and my interaction with him on the subject of evil.

28:24

We've played Frank Turk's Why was there such a massive difference? It shows the difference between the two sides

28:33

And so This is a question on theodicy and especially For a oh it was

28:41

Jerome Hildebrand That's the Nick anyways Who gave me the credit who is claiming credit

28:51

For the Craig Lee I need to say claiming credit because I don't remember Someone else might have

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I don't want 47 other people now jumping on Twitter going wait a minute I said that to you because I wasn't following Twitter overly closely while on the ship.

29:04

I couldn't it just wasn't really Possible to do I mean I do try to you know, sort of scroll through and see what's there but I Anyway, um, let's go ahead and listen to what dr.

29:16

Craig had to say here. I suppose I should listen long I just hate wearing this thing, but We're gonna find another way of doing it

29:25

He's talking about theodicy and other Star Trek terms, that's good that's that's Lane Lane's understanding of what's going on there and remember we blame

29:33

Lane for a lot of things, especially a recent non -debate That's another issue. Oh That would do it for the atheists if he could prove either a contradiction in the concept of God Which I've worked on to have a coherent view of theism

29:46

Or if he could show that the evil in the world made it impossible or improbable that God exists that would falsify theism now

29:55

Listen to the statement that's about to be made because I can guarantee you I could be biased

30:04

I Could be biased I admit it But I hear a very troubling

30:17

Philosophically oriented Dismissiveness in what is about to be said

30:25

You would never ever expect to hear me say something like this and you I Lord willing you never will hear

30:32

Me say something like this. This is this is a statement that really is quite

30:40

Indicative of the difference In our apologetic approaches. Here we go possible or improbable that God exists that would falsify theism

30:48

But you're not gonna falsify theism by pointing to Bible Difficulties or the theory of evolution and things of that sort that that just goes no distance to showing

30:56

God does not exist. I Think Craig talks too fast for 1 .2.

31:04

Yeah. Yeah, you're not gonna yeah Going down the road of Bible difficult. You got to understand this

31:12

Mere Christianity thing minimizing, you know, I'm not gonna we're not gonna talk about stuff in the Bible We're not gonna not gonna get into all that stuff.

31:19

This is a purposefully designed embraced tactic on the part of an entire school of apologists

31:29

Who at some point in the past got together at least the leaders did and said, you know To improve our debates we need to change what the very ground of the debate is and these atheists are are wasting all of our time dealing with biblical contradictions and issues like that and We're philosophers

31:50

You know, it's funny If You know the original language is pretty well you can answer most those things fairly quickly actually

31:59

I mean not all of them I realize but anyway You'll never hear me say that.

32:05

You'll never hear me say. Well, you know, it's a do with the existence of What do you really should say is a

32:12

God? Because once again, here is the foundational difference remember for the

32:18

William Lane Craig Approach the preponderance of the evidence points to the greater probability of the existence of a

32:27

God Then once you think you've won that debate good luck moving from a

32:35

God to the triune God of Scripture even

32:42

Even atheists have pointed out that's a big leap big big leap and And very rarely are we given a meaningful connection between the two so That's the you know, you can go with the a

33:00

God thing or the God thing that's the difference between the two sides, you know from the from the

33:07

Covenantal side the presuppositional aside the triune God Foundation of everything you live in his world you steal from him every time you

33:18

Contradict the fact you made in the image of God. That's the point of contact From the evidential aside the preponderance of the evidence.

33:26

And of course as soon as you use that term in this context, what are you saying? The rebel sinner is the judge the rebel sinner gets to be the judge

33:35

Good luck with that one Though many will say oh, but what we need the work of the Holy Spirit Yeah, but do you have a robust enough theology of the

33:42

Holy Spirit to? Recognize the Holy Spirit's necessary for regeneration before there can be true faith very very few on that side do but Anyway, all right.

33:55

We continue. I haven't even gotten to them interesting partner that just goes no distance to showing God does not exist

34:01

I get the feeling that Brian would like to ask about 15 more questions, but he asks one more here If God can create a world where the maximum number of free creatures come to him by choice

34:12

By having evil in the world Why couldn't he create a world where that same maximum number came to him freely without evil?

34:19

You may say he can't force us to freely do something But if he knows ahead of time and creates the circumstances for which we will come to him in what way is he not?

34:31

responsible Now did you understand the question? because To get the the depth of the answer and From my perspective that the danger of the answer

34:42

Means you have to understand what's being said? Remember in Mullen ism. Okay. I know I didn't tell you to take your

34:48

Advil first. I'm sorry I keep forgetting to do that, but And for some people you really know

34:56

In Craig's Mullen ism God Because he possesses middle knowledge, which is a knowledge of what any creature would do given certain circumstances

35:07

However, this knowledge does not come from God's decree. It's not because God made them that way this knowledge

35:15

Comes from someplace else That if God were to create creature X it would do certain things not because of God's decree but because that's just The cards that have been dealt there's a cosmic card dealer someplace that determines these things we don't know who he is

35:33

I just find that every time I have to explain to somebody I just go And people go wait a minute.

35:40

I thought we were talking about a Christian theory here. Well, yeah, that's the problem but Because he has middle knowledge of any possible creature, even though it doesn't come from his decree

35:53

He is limited as to what he can do he can examine all of these possible worlds

36:01

That have You know 10 billion people or 5 billion people or 20 billion people

36:13

You can you can play with the kind of world And And of course, it's just think of how

36:24

Awesome God must be and we've played places where dr Craig is talking about just think of the wonder of God's knowledge.

36:30

He's able to do this. I mean he is a big computer Because that's what we're talking about here

36:36

That he can run all of these permutations of this incredible program where you put this person in this person

36:41

And let's try this person over here Let's have this person be born under these circumstances and this person be born of that circumstance

36:46

And so what he does is he runs all of these possible universes these possible worlds and Somewhere I guess they would assume from his character

37:02

You have to have you know, if you run a computer program we had some really smart computer people in our group on the on the cruise and Had some interesting conversations over dinner about Computers and theology and stuff and If you if you think about it all those different People and all the different places you can put them in you still have to have some type of ordering principle

37:33

What do you want the program to do? What if you're examining all these worlds? What's your goal?

37:41

And that's one of the big issues Because certainly the Bible doesn't talk about any of this kind of stuff. I mean, let's just be honest

37:47

There ain't no Molinism in the Bible This is a philosophical construct comes along 1 ,500 years later to try to make sense out of a couple things, but please

37:56

Please don't insult us by saying yeah, the the Apostles meant to communicate Molinism to us. No, they didn't

38:04

So, what's what are the goals well Um Maximal number of saved people

38:13

With the maximum amount of good or the minimum amount of evil. That's the idea

38:22

So what the guy writing in has said well if you can get The maximum number of people

38:29

X whatever that is With evil why can't God do it without evil and still get the same number of people, you know, it wasn't there

38:41

You know when he's running all these simulations, I mean, he's a huge Universe simulator is what

38:48

God becomes here but The the options given to him have been circumscribed by his possession of middle knowledge, which does not come from his own decree

39:01

That to me will always be the reason Why anyone who takes biblical theology seriously is gonna have to go.

39:07

Yeah, not really on on Molinism as popular as it may be Don't work.

39:13

So there's there's the issue we press forward the answer to the question is that it may not be feasible

39:18

For God to create such a world What people often don't understand is that you can't just sort of pluck out of this possible world

39:29

Those who freely come to Christ Now, did you hear what he said? the answer to his question is

39:36

That it would not be feasible for God It's not possible God did the best he could

39:45

Given the cards he was dealt. He didn't use that terminology here. That's what he's saying. It's not feasible and Now what he's gonna explain is well

39:54

Now think about this for a second the reason That the people get saved in this world is

40:04

Not because God set his love upon them in eternity past The reason that they get saved in this world is

40:16

Because in this set of circumstances that God chose to put them in They would be saved

40:23

But if you put them in a different world, they might not be saved think about what that means the ultimate

40:31

Decider is this impersonal Program running on the basis of the cards dealt by somebody else that we don't know who it is

40:42

There can be nothing personal God can't say from eternity past.

40:48

I choose to redeem this specific people in Christ Jesus Because the identity of the specific people depends upon which world he decided to put them into and if you put him into a different World, it'd be a different people

41:02

That's what he just said And every time

41:08

I do this people go They don't really believe that do they well, hey, you know what give dr.

41:15

Craig Credit at least he talks about it Mike my experience is a lot of Molinus just sort of mumble through they they have mumble

41:24

Molanism That's hard to say mumble mumble Molanism. They just sort of mumble through it and middle -knowledge and that's how

41:30

God God knows what people are gonna do it and They don't deal with what that actually means.

41:36

At least dr. Craig is open and says It's not feasible for God Appreciate it.

41:42

I find it absolutely bone -chilling, but I appreciate it and Put them in a world of their own and leave out all those who reject

41:51

Christ Because you see once you do that, you've got a new Possible world and in that world that same group of people might not come freely to know

42:02

Christ It may be that some of them only come to know Christ freely in the actual world because of certain things that happen in the actual world related to Evil or others rejecting

42:13

Christ or something of that sort? So the point is that it's impossible to just pluck these

42:20

Saved people out of this world stick them in a world of their own and expect everything to remain the same

42:25

That's not the way it works. And so there simply may not be the

42:32

Circumstances available to God in order to create a world of universal salvation

42:37

Catch that let let's let us try that statement. Once again, this is available to I didn't go far enough back

42:45

Let's try there simply may not be the circumstances available to God in order to create a world of universal salvation

42:55

How is that not the exactly what he said earlier about the car dealer? The circumstances available to God When was

43:04

God dependent upon circumstances? What are these circumstances the circumstances are the facts that of human autonomy human freedom?

43:17

Which come from this middle knowledge which come from somehow knowing what any non decreed

43:24

To create in the first place creature is going to do in a any given context You see this is again when you hear people talking about the grounding objection, this is what we're talking about Christian theism doesn't believe anything exists that God didn't create

43:42

Except what forms middle knowledge which then Creates the very range in which the divine computer program can run to figure all this stuff out

43:54

So the circumstances just made just hasn't been given what he needed to God couldn't save everybody's doing the best he can come on Be nice to him.

44:03

He's doing the best he can I'm not the one saying it.

44:08

I'm just I'm just playing it That doesn't have other overriding Demerits, for example, maybe

44:14

God could create a world of universal salvation That has only two people in it that only exist for two minutes and then they die

44:23

Well, right maybe in that world God achieves universal salvation But he couldn't achieve a world involving this much good as much good as in the actual world

44:34

But without also this many people freely Rejecting him and his every effort to save them that just might not be feasible for God given the nature of creaturely freedom there is the key

44:50

Given the nature of creaturely freedom. It's not feasible for God given the nature of human autonomy human freedom

45:03

Which of course is another way of saying that middle knowledge That men will do

45:09

X Y & Z given these circumstances This limits and circumscribes the range of God's actions of God's freedom

45:20

God's freedom circumscribed by man's autonomy Theology matters theology matters and There you go.

45:31

There you go So I know many people

45:36

I know many people who think this is just this is the way to get past the

45:42

Calvinist Arminian stuff just do the middle knowledge thing doesn't work and If that if that gives you that kind of a

45:55

Horrific type of theology You're eventually gonna debate somebody that's gonna push you on it.

46:02

They're gonna press you on it and they're gonna say hey, it sounds like what you're saying here is such -and -so and Why not?

46:11

Why aren't you saying that and he's got to come out and be honest, you know I just did with my phone. I know you all saw me do that What?

46:22

No, I turned it down a degree in here I Have there we have a program allows me to control the thermostat and it's getting warm in here

46:30

You know why because I've got to turn the fan on so Rather than get up and well, actually, you know what?

46:36

I'm about to play a video. So voila. I'll be I'll be cooler here in a moment because I can get up and Go from there.

46:46

All right Did it did it did it did it did it Yes Casey it is confusing and believe me.

46:55

You are not the only one to say that. All right now How long ago was it?

47:04

That was it pulpit and pen or polemics report Wanted to they have too many peas one or two posted the brief clip of Dr.

47:16

Moore and Andy Stanley and when

47:24

I played it One of the things I I I've been informed was this is only a part of the interview couldn't find the whole interview and as a result

47:38

It looked like dr. Moore was just sort of sitting there Doing his thing and Wasn't really interacting with Stanley and challenging him

47:52

But I had been told that in fact there had been Challenged in the back and forth before this and then in fact

47:59

Stanley was upset by the way he was treated You didn't see that.

48:05

And of course, dr. Moore took a lot of heat on The basis of just that one thing.

48:11

I did find it somewhat ironic that dr. Moore had Unfortunately retweeted the false attacks upon me as a racist without actually knowing what he was doing but I'm not gonna return the favor and So I pointed out we played it

48:25

What other people were saying and that there's obviously more to this and I wonder why they haven't posted it yet And I'd really like to know what the rest of the interaction was, etc, etc, etc well, it was posted while we were at sea and The only way

48:42

I could grab it was by playing it streaming it and using

48:49

Some software I have on my laptop to grab it that way that's what I did and What I want

49:00

There's a lot of important stuff here and you might be saying I should be dealing with you know Islam or dealing with you know a textual critical issue or you know,

49:08

I did a lot of textual critical stuff on the ship yes, but What this

49:14

Andy Stanley thing is allowing us to To discuss and to focus on is really the the intersection of so many of the things we talked about where a synergistic non

49:31

Lordship salvation Non -reformed hence I believe and have argued many times sub -biblical theology

49:41

Joins together with a Man -centered you're the judge you get to judge

49:47

God. Here's some evidence a form of evidentialism Which I believe is non apostolic together with the

49:57

Minimalization of the faith the mere Christianity movement make the target as small as possible

50:03

You start putting it all together and now you can understand why Andy Stanley is staying up there saying it's

50:09

Christianity He's not depend on the Bible Christian. He's just a long before the Bible and we're all sitting there going. What are you talking about?

50:17

The the Apostles would never have said that you're redefining Bible You're ignoring the the

50:22

Tanakh the centrality that it had in New Testament the centrality that the the preaching of the gospel was

50:30

First Corinthians chapter 15, which is what's really funny here because The people that he is relying upon in the apologetics area

50:40

They love to talk about how there are certain scholars that identify that fragment of the early kerygma the first Corinthians chapter 15

50:51

You know, I've delivered to you which also lived to me using the language of Tradition passing on of tradition and it's the

51:00

Fundamentals of the gospel. It's not all of the gospel. It's the fundamentals of the gospel the death burial resurrection

51:06

Jesus Christ What does it say over and over again? over and over according to the scriptures according scriptures according scriptures according scripts over and over again and If that was in fact from within literally

51:21

Months weeks. I mean I would say that's just that's that's apostolic proclamation, but months or weeks of the resurrection event itself

51:28

Okay, so it's extremely early tradition love that terminology. That's great. That means the most extremely early tradition was based very firmly and totally upon saying according to the

51:42

Scriptures the very thing that Andy Stanley in this interview with dr. Moore is saying now

51:47

I wouldn't say that not in our culture today so in other words apostolic example needs to be trumped by cultural example it's what your goal is and he'll say that and And I I he's a smart guy,

52:00

I think he fully understands We've decided to do something completely different here and we are not bound by biblical parameters and what we're doing what we're doing is different and our goal is different and we'll go ahead and Own up to it and he does and So I think it needs to be just plainly stated

52:22

This is not a New Testament Church, and it's not pretending to be Well, it might be pretending to be but it's it's admitting we have a different definition of Church, and we're not gonna bother with the

52:36

Substantiation of that from the New Testament text itself That discipline stuff and and you know the involvement of the elders and people's lives, you know

52:45

You know the centrality of the preaching of the word Fact that yeah, the

52:50

New Testament teaches that it's a holy bride of Christ and it's a place of worship and and Really?

52:57

That's what the people get together to do and if unbelievers come in amongst them they

53:03

They're it's not it's not there for them For these folks they get together on Sundays for unbelievers.

53:10

It's it's a massive evangelism rally It is not worship in the sense of we are gathering to as the body of Christ to repent of our sins to call each other to repentance and a life of holiness and To gather to hear

53:28

God speak by his word. No No, that's that's not why you that's that's not what they want to do and this comes out very clearly at the beginning of the interview when pastor

53:41

Stanley reads this letter from an atheist that many many people are

53:51

Going oh, this is wonderful This I mean, this is an atheist doctor a female

53:58

Atheist doctor and she's been attracted to what Andy Stanley is saying

54:04

Well seems like she has been And don't get me wrong. God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick.

54:11

There's a bunch of people in my audience that You know, you well know That the circumstances in which you first came to hear the gospel and first made a commitment to Christ and weren't exactly ideal and you had to you've gone through a lot to Move on from there and to learn and to be discipled and to grow and you've had painful experiences where you've had to actually leave the places where you initially encountered the gospel proclamation and The reason you had to do so was because you as you came to know the

54:46

Word of God Realized that even the people that God had used to bring that message to you weren't Weren't crossing the

54:52

T's and dotting the I's and they they were not Walking straight in accordance to the truth of the gospel

54:58

That's a biblical phrase Walking straight in accordance the truth of the gospel.

55:05

It's the exact terminology that Paul uses of Peter So for those of you saying you shouldn't be criticizing

55:11

Andy Stanley, well Peter criticized Paul criticized Peter Publicly to his face because he was not walking straight in accordance to the truth of the gospel

55:22

That doesn't mean that Paul didn't think Peter was a Christian It doesn't mean that Paul hated

55:27

Peter but it does mean that Paul had a higher priority than whether he was number one on Peter's Christmas card lift and That was the truth of the gospel the phrase the truth of the gospel should be one of the greatest possessions that you have

55:49

Because God's gone through a lot to make sure you have it Really has martyrs and everything else so pastor

55:57

Stanley Reads this Letter and It simply illustrates

56:08

What the real fundamental issues are here. Does the

56:13

Bible actually tell us what the church is about is Scripture normative for defining the church or is culture normative for defining the church.

56:25

Do we have just a extremely broad basic thing regarding what the church is and then we can just Fill in You know as long as it has just a couple little things then

56:42

We look at our culture and go this is what's gonna be the the most effective. I'm not sure how you define that But the most effective in our culture is going to be to do this this and this and the

56:55

Apostles may have done that But you know what? That's Not in our culture anymore. Like look at look at how our culture hates truth

57:03

So are what you're saying is we need to find ways to sort of sneak truth into them you know sort of Sneak up on them.

57:14

Those are some of the issues that come up So let's listen to this You got it all up over there.

57:20

All right, here we go Oh, it would help to do it this way. I asked Dr. Moore if I could share this in the context is we're gonna talk about preaching and cultural engagement and one of the things that we are commonly criticized for is

57:33

Misunderstood for is our approach to church and cultural engagement and church being not just the preaching part

57:40

But the whole thing and if I think of a sermon series like a three and a half hour sermon So nobody wants to sit through a three and a half hour sermon

57:47

So we spread it out over a bunch of weeks So if you show up at the introduction week You might think do they use the

57:53

Bible if you show up at the last week? You might think do they always have people stand up and pray to receive

57:58

Christ? So you have to come for about six weeks But anyway, so this two

58:03

Sundays ago, we started a new series called who needs God and in the fall I often try to throw the net as wide as possible and the focus of this particular series is the nuns

58:12

The those that are just not affiliated 25 % population 35 % of Millennials Mostly male mostly left -leaning politically you guys know all that So I'm thinking okay the

58:22

I want to go after the people who they're not atheists But they're just they just are not affiliated don't know don't care and don't need to know

58:28

Now what's interesting to me is in the actual sermon series He's not talking about the nuns.

58:35

He's talking about people who used to make a profession of faith there is a biblical category for such individuals and there are

58:45

Biblical parameters as to how you're to deal with such individual of course those biblical parameters

58:53

Were written to churches that actually engaged in something called church discipline so you actually had objective standards and There was a concern for souls and things like that, you know today's culture someone just stopped showing up and it's just like Whatever, you know and but things would change but I find this interesting that it's just the general nuns

59:17

But in the sermon series, it's if you've rejected it because of some problem you have the Bible then you haven't had the right reason

59:25

Anyway series was about and so as a result of that I received a letter Monday and I just would read it real quick And the reason

59:32

I want to read the letter to me This is the bullseye on the target if you're wondering what are you trying to do?

59:37

And when you know when you're preaching what are you thinking about? This is it and I get great letters all the time. This one came

59:42

Monday. So I thought that's recent. It's relevant So here's a this is from a physician Okay, so this is what this is what

59:48

Stanley wants. This is what the Stanley's saying This is what we're about this is what we want

59:55

We want people to respond this way to us. Okay Dear, mr.

01:00:01

Stanley. This is just an email to the general mailbox dear miss Stanley One of the thing I have to say when we do wide end of the net preaching and services we de church

01:00:11

So on this particular Sunday, there were no prayers. There was no worship music. There was no corporate singing.

01:00:17

There was no offering There was something else we didn't do it was like Just I mean if you showed up on that Sunday, you would judge me harshly as a pastor and a preacher and that's okay

01:00:29

We we would rather be criticized by our friends that are all going to heaven with and people are trying to reach but that's a different Topic for a different day, and I'm perfectly it's not a different topic for a different day.

01:00:38

This is this is absolutely foundational. We de church we change the purpose

01:00:46

That is defined by Scripture For why the people of God are to meet in the worship of God for our self -defined

01:01:00

Goal of evangelism. We'll call it do that on a Monday do that on a Wednesday. Don't call it church

01:01:06

I would really I wanted to ask someone I know someone who might be able to find out for me

01:01:12

I would love to know What the Lord's Supper looks like? At this

01:01:19

I don't know what to call I'm sorry, but if you've got multiple campuses with screens up I Just don't see the connection between that in the

01:01:28

New Testament Church. I I'm sorry. I just don't I Mean if we only had a few pastors left on the planet, okay,

01:01:34

I might see it We got we got enough It would be okay to have somebody there

01:01:42

But what does the Lord's Supper look like? Because again, you know going back to that silly Reformation thing there were certain signs of the church

01:01:50

That that people really argued over for for important reasons and and one of them was the the right administration of The sacraments as it was discussed then in Latin I prefer the term ordinances, but bid as it may the

01:02:04

Lord's Supper and baptism I would like to know what does does

01:02:11

Andy Stanley Have sort of like this broad hey Anybody partake type view or does he see any necessity whatsoever to warn?

01:02:24

Against unworthy participation in the Lord's Supper based upon Paul's words in first Corinthians if anybody knows

01:02:34

I'd like I'd be really interested in knowing Because we have a fun here's where the the dividing line is we de -church

01:02:44

Okay Chapter and verse maybe from their perspective don't need it.

01:02:51

Don't need it This is what we have found to be effective and What will keep coming up over and over again in this conversation is what you win them with is what you win them to What you win them with is what you win them to there

01:03:11

It's it's a nice saying But a lot of people are discovering. They don't really believe that that you can win them with a bait and switch technique

01:03:23

That this is what church is and Then once you get them in well actually you know we need to do some more of this holiness and sanctification thing

01:03:34

And they're gonna put up with that Hmm Okay Trouble with that and partly is because I'm a preacher's kid right things don't bother us sometimes.

01:03:45

Okay, so having said that here's the letter Sorry, dear. Mr. Stanley. I am an atheist. I have always been an atheist

01:03:51

There have been no deconstruction of faith or particular incident that has led me to lose faith. I've just never believed

01:03:57

I will admit to praying to God when I was being towed behind a boat as a teenager And I definitely prayed for snow when

01:04:03

I was in high school and hadn't finished an assignment But that was the limit of my relationship with the church I have been the guest of many different types of churches synagogues temples, etc

01:04:12

But it's never been my thing upon moving to the south from the west coast I found out how taboo it is to label oneself atheist.

01:04:19

Okay. Hold on. I was sent a link in channel. Thank you very much This is interesting.

01:04:29

This is from communion in community group from inside North Point org

01:04:36

Many have expressed a desire to celebrate communion more frequently than the few times we corporately share in it

01:04:42

We believe that a community group is a great place for this to happen The following paragraphs are meant to give you some guidelines to make this a meaningful celebration within your group so evidently

01:04:53

It's done a few times in the public services and Then encouraged to happen in the small groups.

01:05:02

Now, of course, I've always said, you know They're into this small group circles are better than rows thing He's gonna talk about this later on circles are better than rows

01:05:08

So the the circle a small community is better than in the in the pews the rows of pews

01:05:15

I've been in a megachurch and I saw it happen the

01:05:21

Bible studies became churches and the leadership of the Bible study Ended up functioning as the pastors because that's the way it's designed you

01:05:31

You know at Dr. MacArthur's Church, they do this purposefully they have the groups and they have elders who are qualified Pastoring those groups because they realize you can't

01:05:44

John MacArthur cannot pastor 20 ,000 30 ,000 people he can't be in their lives in that way.

01:05:50

So you have a multiplicity of elders you put the people into Those groups and the natural thing that happens is those small groups become churches

01:06:03

And I saw that happen in the megachurch. I was in the thing was every year because they didn't want that to happen

01:06:09

So what they do is every year they break it up and they'd ship you off someplace else Which just tore people apart you start building natural relationships and then you know, they're gone

01:06:18

It was a mess. It was a Southern Baptist Church. It was a mess along those lines. Just anyhow so Let me see here

01:06:31

The primary purpose of communion is to take time to remember all the Lord has done for us It's time remembrance initiated by Jesus just for his death

01:06:42

Then you have first Corinthians 11 personal examination Where and how often

01:06:51

Well, this is interesting We believe that communion is a good thing for believers to celebrate not only at church or in the church building

01:06:57

But also in homes and appropriate places around the city So is this a church function?

01:07:02

Well again, let's start redefining church. That's interesting God invites to celebrate as often as we feel is appropriate.

01:07:10

So is the we here the church? The elders of the church because I believe the

01:07:15

Lord's Supper is is The people it's it's a church thing You don't just get together with some friends and break break out the

01:07:22

Ritz crackers and some grape juice Okay Any person who has believed and entrusted the

01:07:32

Lord Jesus Christ alone for his or her salvation May take communion. This means it is possible that some members of your group

01:07:39

May not want to participate So are you telling them to warn them not to it sort of sounds that way

01:07:53

We believe is important to take time to get to know one another before participating communion together Groups could share communion as early as the first six months of their group cycle group cycle sounds like Biology or something.

01:08:06

It's very weird How to do it some passages and that's about it

01:08:15

I didn't say anything specifically about warning Unbelievers or anything like that?

01:08:21

So yeah, okay. I appreciate I Appreciate the provision of That document.

01:08:30

I'm not sure it answered all my questions. But anyway, we move on seem to associate the word with soulless Moralist heartless ways of living.

01:08:38

I became immediately uncomfortable when asked what church I was a part of and honestly

01:08:45

Because I don't feel like I'm a bad person And the reactions I get from people when I tell them that I'm an atheist turn me off even further from the church

01:08:51

It cemented the idea. I had already formed about the hypocrisy of religious people and made me even more reticent to reform that opinion

01:08:59

Now what we have here is your standard atheist with your standard Atheist hypocrisy.

01:09:05

I'm not a bad person Yes, you are and so are all the rest of us and then we're gonna get a list here of the you know

01:09:12

Hypocrisy, she's seen amongst religious people Again, every one of these excuses not gonna fly very far before God That's what's what's gonna be coming remember when my grandfather was dying of cancer

01:09:26

My uncle told my mother that her father was going to hell because he was Jewish He told a grieving daughter that her dad now if he said because he's

01:09:34

Jewish, that's pretty stupid, isn't it? That's not why anybody goes to hell So so bad theology and that's that that's the church's fault.

01:09:42

Well, you know if the guy wasn't taught Then yeah But you know what the funny thing is it would be in surface level churches where people are never really taught theology

01:09:51

That they would make such statements like that, isn't it? The hell what the God I wanted to believe in loved everybody and people and held people accountable for the type of life

01:10:00

They live not some not what they blindly believed a good person Selfless and kind loving and generous would go to hell if they weren't baptized infants that die and there are stuck in limbo for all

01:10:10

Eternity I once had a Catholic friend who was so sad for me because I was going to hell

01:10:15

She shook her head sadly over her pregnant belly She was unwed and single confident that she could just go confess and be absolved while I went to hell

01:10:23

Wait, what? This girl who just stopped doing cocaine while at work and was pregnant by some fling was telling me

01:10:30

I was going to hell Because I hadn't accepted Jesus Christ. Anyway, these are a few of the bricks that built the wall between religion and myself

01:10:39

That is how the broader culture perceives us That's it. It's just you know, it's not fair, but it's true something to be fair and True at the same time obviously

01:10:50

I write this because something changed I have a dear friend and this is so important who is a member of Browns Bridge Church That's the church.

01:10:56

I'm currently pastoring in our network of churches in Atlanta She knows that I'm an atheist and she pesters me constantly to attend church with her

01:11:03

I love her, but she was driving me crazy. I begin to resent her a little bit every time she brought it up I have beliefs.

01:11:10

They're just different from hers. Not better. Not worse just different upon further reflection I realized that while it would only take one hour out of my life

01:11:16

It would make her so happy to have me by her side and then she'd leave me alone. I finally relented She told me about the atheist series.

01:11:22

Well, that's not the name of the series, but the week before You know one of the things we tease our series and so I said hey next week, you know

01:11:31

The title of the message is atheist 2 .0. That was the name of the message next week atheist 2 .0. She told me about the atheist

01:11:40

She told me about the atheist series and I agreed to go once if she bought me coffee and then shut up about it

01:11:47

We got to church and I dragged this is awesome. I got to church and I dragged my three soulless children with me.

01:11:56

I Put them in their respective classes and Marveled at the gorgeous hallways and friendly helpers everywhere

01:12:03

So what we do the sermon I said this all time the sermon begins in the parking lot and it's continued in the hallways and It's continued when you check in children.

01:12:10

The sermon begins way before we ever opens our open our mouths. Anyway, okay Did you catch that the sermon begins in the parking lot now?

01:12:18

There's When you have lived your entire life in mega churches and We know what

01:12:28

Andy Stanley has said about small churches Really doesn't think that they Much much usefulness, but when you've lived your life in mega churches

01:12:38

Look, like I said, I can at least draw from the experience I had in a mega church Yeah there was all sorts of stuff about You know greeting the people properly and the looks of the grounds and the aesthetic and and the whole nine yards when you start defining

01:12:57

The sermon which is where the Word of God Empowered and enlightened by the

01:13:05

Spirit of God is Presented to the people of God as Their communion with their

01:13:13

God that grows them and matures them and grounds them with the faith when you start confusing that with how your hallways look and the aesthetic

01:13:25

That is pleasing to a self -righteous rebel atheist You took a you took a turn

01:13:33

I'm not gonna be taken with you you you turned someplace Somewhere back there.

01:13:39

You got a different road. I I can't get on that road with him Can't get on that road with you and and I Really wonder how you got on that road

01:13:48

Friendly helpers at least they would have fun and I had iced coffee Our seats were saved by our other friends front and center.

01:13:54

Yay This is a rip. Have you noticed how good a communicator

01:13:59

Andy Stanley is? He is a very Very good communicator. He's very good at communicating humor and irony and all sorts of stuff like that.

01:14:09

Very very good I Double -check to make sure somebody didn't just make this up and send it to me I promise that this was

01:14:14

I was so skeptical and it gets better Yay, I had my arms crossed and my skeptical face fixed firmly on I was so uncomfortable

01:14:20

You could not have picked a better song to kick off the series with we kicked off the whole series with the

01:14:26

Mumford and Sons Songs Mumford and Sons song called believe and the refrain is

01:14:32

I don't know if I don't even know if I believe I don't even know If I believe I don't even know if I believe it was amazing. The music was amazing.

01:14:37

The talent was surprising Okay, I will confess never heard it. Don't know what it is, but I'm assuming it's a secular song

01:14:45

I You know, we we don't want to offend the atheist amongst us by you know

01:14:52

I'm saying a worship song or something like that about the Lordship of Christ. I mean It's got to be really careful.

01:14:57

I stuff like that. I mean, here we go I remember thinking how are they going to ruin this song by Jesusing it up?

01:15:08

They kept they kept true to the song and I was so grateful Guard lowered slightly full house loud music.

01:15:15

It does wonders I have to say the sermon you delivered was so incredibly on point I felt completely understood as an atheist not at all judged and I felt my way of thinking challenge, but not aggressively

01:15:26

There was no gotcha moment and I was expect there was no gotcha moment that I was expecting and I love this line

01:15:32

No sales pitch for God and no bids for my soul That's how truly unchurched people think and perceive us we're making a bid for their soul

01:15:45

Which we are, but anyway She can't say which we are but we need to be real

01:15:50

We don't we can't let them know about that because you know We're trying to trick them into doing something that they don't really want to do see

01:15:57

You know, we can't trust the Holy Spirit of God like, you know, regenerate somebody so we do No, don't challenge.

01:16:04

Oh, not in this culture. No gotta got to use the culture to overcome the culture I Don't agree with everything you said, but it was enough that I wanted to hear more.

01:16:15

I wanted to come back I felt good when I left in the next day I was excited to tell my co -workers and patients about my

01:16:21

Sunday morning now pause on that If you know when I talk about what's my goal for preaching for a sermon

01:16:28

My goal is for people to be so excited when they leave they want to come back the next week and bring a friend That's it.

01:16:33

That's that's the win. So she wouldn't so there's there's the goal So excited you want to come back next week How many passages of Scripture Would you have to skip over in preaching to accomplish that because the fact the matter is if you're gonna be a physician of souls, which

01:16:58

It's what's supposed to be happening in the church You're supposed to be preaching the entire

01:17:04

Council of God. Otherwise, you are guilty of their blood remember Acts 20 There are just so many passages that you're gonna have to present they're gonna make people feel really really bad

01:17:19

Not excited about coming back next week, they don't want to come back next week Again We have two completely different definitions of church.

01:17:29

I Don't know how Andy Stanley reads Acts chapter 20 and compares it to what he's doing. I Don't I don't know.

01:17:36

All I can tell you is I couldn't do that. I Can't do that and Andy Stanley say that's why you're in a church with 55 members and you always will be

01:17:50

Yeah, okay Okay, but as Paul said Hands clean hands clean no blood on my hands

01:18:00

And one of the one of the best places to go to hell from is the seats of a Baptist Church One of the best places to go

01:18:08

Atheist went to tell her patients about this church experience. I had the Mumford and songs Mumford and Sons song stuck in my head for three days and I got up willingly this

01:18:17

Sunday to attend again So she came back second week Today was a little more churchy there was praying and Church songs and yet I felt accepted and welcome it felt good as you wrapped up and led the ending prayer

01:18:35

This is this is so awesome as you wrapped up and led the ending prayer.

01:18:40

I Started to cry. I don't know why and I was horrified

01:18:48

These talks have sparked something inside of me and as you said in your prayer now, listen Here's here's where here's where we'll probably wrap up May may finish a little bit earlier than a jumbo

01:19:01

But you need to hear this Catch what's being said here. It stirred my heart

01:19:06

I'm so grateful to my friends for sharing their church with me. Now. This is so huge if your

01:19:12

Church people are not comfortable bringing their unchurched friends to church You just need to think about that and that not it may not even be your goal

01:19:20

But we create churches unchurched people love to attend. That's what that's what we're about That's why we we create churches that unchurched people love to attend

01:19:30

So what's being proclaimed there? What's the purpose of that? So what's an unchurched person well

01:19:38

Isn't isn't that someone who's in rebellion against God? And her friend knew if I can just get her there.

01:19:48

They're not gonna screw it up for me They're not gonna screw it up for her kids. They're not gonna screw it up for me Thank you for putting these talks of sparks and things out of me

01:19:56

Da -da -da -da I am so grateful for my friends for sharing their church with me and accepting me despite our differences Thank you for putting up so much time and research into your sermons and for acknowledging that atheism is a complicated belief system based

01:20:08

Upon unanswered questions, which is how I talked about atheism Is that what atheism is?

01:20:15

based upon unanswered questions Think about the entire Theology and anthropology that lies underneath what

01:20:23

Andy Stanley just glibly said That's not what atheism is It's not based on unanswered questions.

01:20:31

Now. Are there atheists who have questions that haven't been given good answers? That's true

01:20:36

That's not what atheism is How can anyone pretending to be

01:20:42

To have any fidelity to scripture say that atheism is About unanswered questions.

01:20:48

It's about rebellion against God. It's about suppression of truth It's sin

01:20:56

That first thing Totally different perspective on what man is and that's what leads to this.

01:21:05

What's gonna lead to what's about to be said I'm humbled by your congregation and the love that has been given to me.

01:21:11

So freely now I can say I am atheist, but I belong to Browns Bridge Church Did you catch that?

01:21:22

I am atheist, but I belong to Browns Bridge Church and Andy Stanley is not upset about that because he says

01:21:34

Now Two sermons in a row no scripture we get there this week maybe

01:21:41

And again, if you had dropped in on any one of those Sundays with your church filter on it, I understand this I really do

01:21:47

You may have misjudged us But it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish your goal should determine your approach and you should adapt your approach

01:21:55

Towards your goal. So that's kind of the context for preaching now Remember when we listened to the beginning of the first sermon we reviewed

01:22:09

He specifically talked about doing church whether you're a follower of Jesus or not and so What Andy Stanley has done is he has redefined the church and so once you've redefined the church as just a get -together of people

01:22:32

To talk about sort of religious things, but just to just to have some good time together you know

01:22:41

Once that's the church It's pretty easy to redefine other things too like Bible and relationship between church and Bible and All sorts of other issues along along the line, but this is this is not the

01:22:55

New Testament Church. I'm sorry. You could not defend this culturally conditioned

01:23:04

We did some surveys and this is what really works Definition of church, but and I know

01:23:10

North Point's North Point and all the rest of them I guess North Point's just sort of the umbrella over all these other campuses and all the rest of time

01:23:16

I realize it's not Southern Baptist Church, but to my Southern Baptist friends you birthed this

01:23:21

I Watched you birth it as a teenager. I Watched you birth this as a teenager

01:23:32

When the numbers Were all that mattered When the numbers of baptisms the numbers of people in the

01:23:41

Sunday school Numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers when you birthed this Because you have to redefine things

01:23:52

To make the numbers work That's all there is to it This was birthed in that culture, and I know there are some

01:24:00

Presbyterians and others that do similar things, but you birth this Guess I'll use the cough drops as I have over there

01:24:10

Unless it sneaks up on me. I think it's not there. He has no problem He has no problem with an atheist saying

01:24:20

Part of your church because he you know I imagine what he would say is well Now you know hey if she feels

01:24:29

Wanted and accepted She'll eventually get it She'll eventually hear it when is her self -righteousness and her rebellion

01:24:43

Going to be directly challenged When we think of First John to they went out from us, so it might be demonstrated.

01:24:56

They're not truly of us If you are desperately trying to keep unbelievers in how does that work anymore doesn't seem like you have the same

01:25:04

Priority that the Apostle did who thought it was really good idea that they do go out from us because we don't want people to be confused

01:25:15

What you have here is pretty simple a

01:25:23

Brother on Twitter just said church comes from the word Ecclesia which means those who are called out something

01:25:28

Andy Stanley needs to understand well Sorta That's a common error actually it's repeated over and over again

01:25:39

Ecclesia Ecc and Kaleo put together yes, but does television mean far -seeing?

01:25:46

no television has a specific meaning in our day and nobody thinks of far -seeing and By time writing a new testament no one thought of called out as the meaning of Ecclesia it meant a gathering assembly the idea of calling out again, it's just a just something

01:26:03

I've mentioned it many times before and not trying to pick on you, but It's There is everything in the

01:26:09

New Testament about the fact that the Ecclesia is Made up of holy people who are called to be different from the world around them.

01:26:19

It's not dependent upon the word it is dependent upon the teaching of the New Testament as to the nature of the church and That is something that Andy Stanley has abandoned and I think he would defend

01:26:32

The abandonment on the basis of it works in our

01:26:39

Culture and look at the 40 ,000 people watching me on Sunday as proof of that That's the reasoning

01:26:48

That's not biblical reasoning. The question is where are these people going to be 20 years from now? Where are they going to be 20 years from now?

01:26:56

When Andy Stanley is not there or something happens to Andy Stanley His theology goes off into even a wilder direction.

01:27:05

Where are they gonna be? Are they being grounded? What about the sheep that come to this place?

01:27:11

Well, they they get the food in the small groups. Then that's the church, isn't it? Not this big

01:27:18

Thing Very troubling especially because so many have come rushing to his defense come rushing to his defense and We'll take a look at some of the things that have been said in defense such as Frank Turk's cross -examined org article and Norman Geisler's article and There's some more in this video too after the letter

01:27:45

That actually was the shortest part. There's actually a longer part. I'm not sure how much that we're gonna watch but But the fact is despite the fact that dr.

01:27:53

Moore has not been very nice to me. I really You know what he did earlier this year was just really low fact matter is

01:28:02

I can't return the favor he pushed back and he pushed back appropriately and he pushed back in an orthodox fashion and There are some people who just don't believe he can do anything, right?

01:28:13

Just like it sounds like he doesn't think I can do anything, right? But again, sorry wish wish wish that wasn't the case

01:28:19

But I felt like he asked some good questions and the interaction between he and Stanley is actually educational

01:28:25

So we'll try to take a look at some of that as well tomorrow afternoon

01:28:32

Hopefully around 6 p .m. I've got a I've got a knee I'm gonna need some wiggle room tomorrow 6 p .m.

01:28:41

Eastern Daylight Time. I don't know when the is that November that it changes or something I forget when who knows when when people go play with their clocks we don't care but we do care because we end up missing things because you all play with your clocks, but Some all someday someday you all need to Do it like we do.

01:29:00

But anyways, we'll see you tomorrow sometime in the late afternoon Evening, depending on where you are here on the dividing line.