Debate: Does God Exist? # 8

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00:00

Therefore, logic evolved. Well, so that's pretty good.

00:10

That's good. But what you're basically saying is logic is the result of chemistry of the brain, right?

00:18

That's what you're saying. So then, why is it that we should obey it, since all that you're saying that it really is is nothing more than the result of chemical reactions and you're programmed to say that.

00:30

And it doesn't mean that it's logical or illogical. It just means that it's chemical.

00:36

Then logic loses its transcendent nature and essence. It becomes a product of human development.

00:42

And brain chemistry, which I've already shown, is not the way to handle it. It can't do it. I'm sorry?

00:48

It doesn't have to be transcendent. It just is. Whether you think it's true or not doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it is true or not.

00:55

It simply is. That's the nature of what transcendence is. See, folks, this is a good example of something.

01:01

He and I disagree, respectfully. I'm goth -y tonight, if he wants a drink, I can just stay up all night. But the thing is, so he disagrees with me.

01:07

Fine, okay? Well, that just demonstrates that the human mind is not the product of absolute transcendent logical thought.

01:15

Because if it were, then why is it he, right, and I'm wrong, or vice versa? It wouldn't be. I don't know how logic evolved, and neither does

01:23

Matt. The fact that he thinks he does doesn't mean he does, but let us remember that whatever he thinks is the answer and whatever he says to you is, according to him, only the operation of the chemistry of the brain.

01:36

So don't pay any attention to what that man behind the curtain says. He's only operating with chemistry of the brain.

01:44

That's quite a bit, you know. Mr. Kagan.

01:52

Edwin, please, okay, yes. Earlier, you compared logic to language and lumped them all together in a group of things that man invented.

02:05

And language is, is invented by man. We made that up, we came up with the alphabet and grammatical structure and the jobs that nouns perform and the agreement rules between subjects and verbs, and over time, those things do change.

02:21

Latin evolved into French, and then we got English from a hodgepodge of a bunch of different languages, and 500 years down the road, we're going to have a bunch of different languages, and language changes, and that's okay because language isn't an issue of true and false.

02:39

It's not an issue of valid and invalid. It's not an issue of sound and unsound, but logic is.

02:46

And when we talk about logic, we deal with things that are either true or false, and the validity of arguments, and then the soundness of them.

02:57

And, oh, well,

03:04

I don't, how is comparing logic and language apples and apples?

03:10

Because 500 years down the road, we're not just going to suddenly decide to throw out the law of non -contradiction.

03:17

That's always going to be true. A has to be A, and it has to be either true or false.

03:23

That's not going to evolve into something else. Logic is true. Ever studied

03:29

Euclidean, okay, thank you. And thank you for thanking. If you ever studied

03:35

Euclidean geometry, and then maybe non -Euclidean geometry, let me give you an example of how logic may or may not always be.

03:44

Have any of you ever read the definition of purgatory in the Catholic encyclopedia? How do we know there's a purgatory?

03:51

Tell you how we know there's a purgatory, because people pray for the souls of the dead, and if there was no purgatory, they'd be wasting their time, and God doesn't want them to waste their time.

04:02

Therefore, there is a purgatory. Now, do you follow that? Okay, now, if you want to see also how the rules of logic evolve, and go awry, and go astray, please read

04:15

Alice in Wonderland, and Through the Looking Glass. They are not children's books, but they are magnificent satires on formal logic.

04:25

Alice, at one point, said, I try to believe five impossible things before breakfast, and to believe in non -contradictory propositions.

04:34

That's the whole idea of the, Alice getting bigger and smaller, the expanding and the contracting universe.

04:41

It was once logically proved that there are canals on Mars. It was proved logically by the logic of the time that Giordano Bruno should be burned to death for heresy.

04:53

It was logically proved that the witches of Salem were affected by, I've recently learned, by the way, that my spouse is a direct descendant of one of the witches of Salem, one who'd already had children when she was executed, of course, and that does explain a great deal.

05:08

But, but, if the logic and the truth of the Catholic Church was true, there would have been no

05:14

Protestant Reformation. If the logic of Aristotle was absolutely true, there would have been no

05:20

Enlightenment and no Renaissance. Come on, grow up. Of course, logic changes and evolves.

05:25

I wish we had all the answers. I don't. There is uncertainty in the world. Get used to it and live with it and try to learn new things.

05:34

Thank you. Thank you. Whether you study

05:44

Euclidean geometry or non -Euclidean geometry necessitates that you use logic in order to properly understand it.

05:51

This presupposes the validity of logic. So you were talking about logic evolving.

05:57

Great, show me the transitional forms of logic. Show me which logical principle exists in any system of thought that somehow didn't survive, but worked for a little while while other transitional forms of logic developed.

06:07

You're using the term of evolution. Demonstrate how it evolves. And just because you can say so -and -so thought the

06:14

Earth did this or didn't do that, who cares? Logic is what we use to demonstrate that those opinions of the past are wrong in the first place.

06:22

So logic itself is the undergirding principle by which we validate and invalidate principles, ideas, and even erring beliefs.

06:30

See, the issue is the laws of logic don't change. When has a law of non -contradiction ever been invalid?

06:39

If it does not, you cannot posit any place or time where it's invalid, where it somehow is no longer true, then

06:47

I win because I'm brown -haired, six feet tall, but that's damn slick, and that's why. It wouldn't work, would it?

06:53

Because logic doesn't dictate that that would be the case. Go ahead. Anyone in response to that or next question?

07:00

Oh yeah, you just proved the flying spaghetti monster, so thank you. May I respond to that?

07:05

There's no such thing as a flying spaghetti monster because a monster has to be able to scare you. Spaghetti isn't that scary. How do you know that?

07:16

You don't think that the God who says kill all the women and their children and bring the young ones who've not known a man to you so you can have fun, well, you don't think that's scary?

07:26

That is scary. And what's wrong with that? From your atheistic perspective, you have no moral objectivity by which to judge whether that is right or wrong.

07:34

Oh, come on. Folks, if you want to set up a debate on that and moral objectivity, we'll find out.

07:39

Any time, any time. Okay, let's set up one, okay? Set it up. Bring it on. Do you all want to carry that on a little further or next question?

07:47

Okay, all right. First of all, I would be terrified of a huge mass of flying spaghetti. Just, I'm just saying, that would scare the crap out of me.

07:57

Mr. Slick, Mr. Slick, I'm curious how it is that you use logic to prove the existence of God only subsequently to use

08:06

God to prove the existence of logic. I believe philosophers refer to that as a glaring logical fallacy of begging the question.

08:13

Did I do that? I believe, I may have missed the argument. I addressed in my opening argument that I am not beginning with the assumption that God exists, but I used logic and saying logic does exist.

08:24

Here's what logic is, I defined it, gave three principles that we have of logical absolutes, then defined that since these things are transcendent and conceptual by nature, therefore, since we don't have concepts that exist without a mind, we must have a mind that reflects those transcendent conceptual entities, therefore, that mind, logically, which is transcendent and absolute, would have to be called

08:43

God. Perfectly logical. So I concluded God existed, but I didn't beg the question. Does that reduce itself to using logic to prove that logic proves

08:53

God's existence? Oh, now that's a good question. I still believe he begs the question, go for it.

08:59

But yes, we all have to have certain begging the questions in a worldview. Yeah, I just think that's.

09:05

Logic being one of them. Do you want me to respond? I think this young man has a great future in philosophy.

09:11

If you major in philosophy, be sure to get a T -shirt that says, do you want that with fries?

09:20

No, I think it's covered. We do, I suppose, to believe in God, we do need to beg a few questions. You have to beg the existence of logic to begin to have a discussion on whether or not he exists.

09:30

How do you validate logic, but by using logic? You use logic to validate or invalidate what the evidences are and how to interpret them.

09:41

You have to have logic a priori. So you're saying that's a presupposition, logic's a presupposition?

09:48

Yes, you have to assume the validity of logic. How would you not assume the validity of logic to have any argument to begin with?

09:54

Edwin, do you buy that, that we all have presuppositions we bring to the table? I think everybody has presuppositions.

10:00

They change all the time. Now, everybody is born an atheist. Let's get that clear, okay?

10:06

The question is not when did you become an atheist? You were born an atheist. The valid question is when did the

10:12

God talk get poured into your innocent, naive little brain? And that's what you need to start overcoming, okay?

10:25

You guys see the assumption, begging the question? How does he know that everyone's born as an atheist?

10:31

I'm going to make a statement, and now it's true, and you clap, does it make it so? No, just because someone believes it doesn't make it so, right?

10:40

Demonstrate to me objectively that someone is born, all people are born atheists. How do you know the content of God is inherent in people since the majority of people over the world believe in God?