Is It Wrong to Call Women Whores?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is it wrong to call women whores?

02:10

Now Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us to read? Isaiah 121 says,

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How the faithful city has become a whore. She who was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her, but now murders.

02:24

There you go. Okay, okay. So, obviously the Bible seems to have a category for whore, right?

02:33

Okay, so, you know, basically a large part of why we wanted to talk about this is because there's been a bit of a, we'll call it a spirited discussion online about a certain tweet that went out from Eric Kahn where he essentially was accusing,

02:52

I think mostly fathers, but at least parents in general who send their daughters off to college to rack up a bunch of debt and to become what he described as well -used mattresses.

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And I'm sure we can all understand what he's insinuating there. But it seemed to kick off a little bit of a, he seemed to kick a little bit of a hornet's nest.

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Not necessarily as big a hornet's nest as we kicked a few months ago. You know, so Eric Kahn, he's still got a ways to go in terms of, you know, saying things that are controversial and true at the same time.

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But, you know, he's making progress and we got to pat him on the back for that, you know. That's silly.

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Anyway, you know, so he puts this tweet out and it upsets a lot of people.

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You know, I mean, I saw people like writing poems about how they were well -used mattresses and, you know, like Jesus, you know, he had redeemed them and essentially trying to, you know, discredit what

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Eric Kahn was saying. And, you know, so a lot of people really sharply disagreed with him in terms of his wording, saying that it was unkind, it was unfair, it wasn't a helpful way to speak about women in general.

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And so, you know, thinking about the response to something like that, it really seems like people are kind of put off when you insinuate that any woman is behaving like a whore.

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Is that right, Tim? Yeah, I mean, basically, it seems like this is a word that enrages people, so that's for sure.

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So why is that, though? I mean, you know, you just read a Bible verse where God was, you know, was calling the

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Israelite nation, his chosen nation, a whore. He was saying that his chosen people were behaving like a whore.

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So it seems like, you know, if you're familiar with the Old Testament at all, you're going to realize that that's not like an isolated thing.

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Like, that happens over and over again, that God compares his people to a whore.

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He compares other nations to behaving like a whore. And so, this is not like a new thing.

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This isn't a one -off type of thing. So it seems like God has a category for that, but then for some reason, a lot of people in modern times, especially in the

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Christian communities, they get really off -put when you call someone a whore, when you use any sort of descriptive language that would force you to seemingly think the way that God speaks about people who are unfaithful.

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So why is that the case, Sim? Yeah, I mean, depending on the translation that you look up, this is a word that,

06:14

I mean, can be used over 100 times in the Bible. So this isn't really... Which is a significant amount.

06:20

Yeah, I think I looked it up in the LSB or something along those lines when I first did it, and I think it was 114 times the term whore was used in general.

06:30

So that translation was preferred. Looking it up in the ESV right now, there's 76 verses with 91 references that are used that all sound the same way.

06:44

So when you said that God called his people whores, I mean, it was a...

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You said there's verses in the Old Testament where God called people whores. It was a bit of an understatement because,

06:55

I mean, this may be one of the most frequent things he calls them, okay? I mean, they weren't all that faithful, you know?

07:07

Right, right. So this is kind of the go -to word that God uses to describe spiritual adultery in the

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Old Testament of his people against him. And as you're reading through the

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Pentateuch, you'll see that Moses at that point, who is writing for God, is basically predicting that people are going to whore after other gods, and that's just the way he describes it.

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So, I mean, you could just read verse after verse after verse that say the same basic things.

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So Exodus 34, 14, and you take their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods, and make your sons whore after their gods.

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I mean, this is the way that the Old Testament talks. Leviticus 17, 7. So they shall no more sacrifice their sacrifices to goat demons after whom they whore.

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This shall be my statute forever for them throughout their generations. You can just,

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I mean, the issue is you can read this, and this is just a descriptive adjective of Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness as compared to whoredom in different ways.

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And God goes into great detail just describing how disgusting this actually is in different ways.

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So part of what's happening is when you... Society has basically remarkably changed their instincts on this issue over the course of my lifetime.

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So growing up, I mean, there is still social stigma attached to a woman being promiscuous in general.

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So even more so than a man. Like if a woman was promiscuous, she would be called a whore. She would be called a slut.

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There would be adjectives that are used like that to describe her character. And that was something that was just very common for me.

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Like for people, for me to hear growing up, like people describing women in that way who sleep around.

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And there was just this understanding that you don't want to really marry a girl who's like a slut.

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You don't want to marry a girl who's a whore. And then part of the problem is that right now if I say those things right now, me even saying those words, these words that are in the

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Bible over and over and over again, like it feels internally like I blaspheme something.

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So it feels like I've said something wrong. It feels like whatever I've done, I've done something fundamentally immoral, like I've uttered a blasphemy.

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And you should think about what that indicates about the society that we live in. Meaning, you could watch

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TV shows right now and movies that constantly take the Lord's name in vain and that are filled with all kinds of cuss words.

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So the kind of cuss words that we weren't allowed to say growing up. So all your four letter words that we weren't allowed to say growing up, all those things.

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Like right now people are more, the issue is people are more offended if you say like the word whore or slut or something like that.

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If you say those words, they're more offended by that than if you were to take the Lord's name in vain or pretend to take the

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Lord's name in vain, you know by one of the various replacements or something like that that we have. But they respond like you say something like you just say the word.

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I'm not even attaching it to any individual. I'm just saying, I'm just using the word in order to answer your question about how

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Christians should think about these things. So I haven't even attached it to anyone in particular. I'm not like talked about anyone in particular.

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I'm not like pointing up to a picture of someone and saying, or, or, or, or, or, or anything like that.

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I'm just, I'm just, I'm trying to like, there's a word in the Bible that was used, you know, in the

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SV 76 times. And now that's become so taboo to the point where people treat it as if it's like far worse than any, anything you can think of.

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And that's, so what that tells you is that I, this is one of those inescapable concepts.

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Like, what that tells you is that, you know, every society is going to have blasphemy laws and it's not whether or not you're going to have blasphemy laws, it's which blasphemy laws are you going to have.

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And right now, this is one of the worst words you can say in our society. So things have over the course of my lifetime, this word has become like, it's gone from being maybe a little bit in impolite, possibly crude, but slightly crude, but useful, right?

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Like a useful societal mechanism to identify certain destructive patterns of behavior. It's gone from that to now it's like the utter, like one of the chief blasphemies you can say.

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And then if you say it, you watch the temperature in the room drop and everyone gets very uncomfortable because they know that a law has been transgressed, you know?

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So there's a law that's been transgressed in saying the word, but then they're not intuitively thinking to themselves, that's weird that we're so offended by this right now.

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Why are we so offended by this when this is? Yeah. So much. And what's really interesting is when

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I, when I read the, that tweet that everyone was, you know, getting all bent out of shape over,

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I remember thinking, I remember thinking the way that, you know, the way that he worded it, calling women who go off to college and who are, you know, incredibly sexually active, have multiple, you know, sexual partners throughout college, calling them well used mattresses.

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I thought was a, when I read that part, it made, I felt like I was being encouraged to think about sexual immorality in a way that God would want me to think about sexual immorality, meaning like I was grossed out by it.

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You know, like I found it gross, you know, think thinking about like that, that sort of descriptive word.

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And, but then it seemed like everyone else was just getting offended, you know, totally offended by it.

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And a lot of them, you know, a lot of that seemed to come from people who as far, you know,

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I don't, I don't know this for sure because I don't know any of these people, but it sounded like it was coming from people who were that way.

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You know, whether, whether it was in college or, you know, some former part of their life, but then it sounds like God has, you know, probably delivered them out of those things now.

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And so, but then they're still getting defensive over it, which is strange, you know, because, because, you know, like,

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I mean, we, we all have sins in our life that, that we, that we partook in before we were, before we became

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Christians. But, you know, I have, I mean, I have all kinds of sins that I would partake in before I became a

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Christian. And, you know, thankfully the Lord's been sanctifying me and, and, you know, bringing me out of those things.

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But then I don't, you know, I don't know that there's anything that I did before I was a

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Christian that I would hesitate to admit that I did. And, and call, you know what it is and use, like, use like the most degrading terms for it because I don't feel shame over it anymore.

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Right. Do you get what I'm saying? But then it feels like a lot of, it feels like a lot of these people are responding in like a shameful way.

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Like they're still feeling shame over it. Does, does that make sense? Yeah.

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So, so is that why people are getting so upset about it? Or is there, you know, is there more to it? What, what's the deal here?

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There's so much going on. You're like, how much time do we have?

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How long do we want to make this? Do we want to make it a couple hours? What? No, I mean, there's just so much going on in this topic that I don't even know where to start.

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Like I, my brain wants to go in 10 different directions at once because what you're observing is bizarre on the face of it.

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So it's like, it's absolutely bizarre. I mean, it's bizarre in every single way imaginable. And there's almost no ability right now to have a sane discussions with individuals about this very thing.

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So this is just a topic that you can't really talk through. And a lot of people are emoting.

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And part of what's happened is so many people have been trained to emote about this. so there's, there's a lot of things that are happening.

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So, so part of, let me see if I can list a few of the things that are conspiring to produce this bizarre kind of reaction, which should be on the face of it.

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Bizarre. So anyone with a biblical worldview should be able to look at the Bible and say, okay, well, like if God uses this word, you know, 91 times to 114 times, depending on the translation, you know, whether or not you're going to use this phrase whore or, you know, prostitute or whatever else, like God uses this phrase and it's not like a polite phrase, right?

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So it's not that. So if God does that, and when you're living in a society that is just totally unhinged by the use of this, then something has gone amiss.

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So what, like I'm saying, I think there's, there's a, there's a variety of things that have conspired to make this, to create this kind of situation to where the stamp, you know, so many people are reacting in the wrong way.

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So part, part of what's happening is that the standard, you know, I mentioned that there's blasphemy laws now, like thou shall not take, we're, we're triggering, we're, we're flying a foul, even having the conversation.

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So like say, saying whore or something like that now is considered about as bad as saying the

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N word or something like that. It's, it's about that bad, you know? So basically there's a standard there that has something weird has happened.

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And it's weird in both cases that both of those kinds of expressions are far worse things that people can say than taking the

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Lord's name in vain. Like that's just bizarre, you know? But, but what's happening here is that slut shaming, like the idea.

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So there's this idea of slut shaming, like you can't slut shame basically. So like with the, so as society has changed, the new rule is that like what's described as slut shaming is like the ultimate evil.

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You can't do that. You can't do that at all. part of, you know, well, why is that happened? Well, a lot of that is because, you know, female promiscuity rates are on the rise.

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So that's, that's obviously true. So like it right now, it's just a foregone conclusion that pretty much almost every girl, you know, out there is going to be and is going to be fornicating before marriage.

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That's just the reality. Like that's just the stats. That's just what the numbers bear out. So what's happened is like post -sexual revolution, you know, you're living in a pornographic society.

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Ladies right now are sleeping around. That's just what it is. I can, and with much greater frequency than, you know, you can, it has been, you know, in her country.

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Like, so those are just the raw stats. But then, you know, with, you know, part, part of what's happened is with the rise of critical theory, you have any, anyone who is perceived as a victim class, they can't be shamed.

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They can't be blamed, right? So what's, what's happening is that men are seen in our society as the ultimate villains, because they're the ones who are like, they're the patriarchy that's hidden behind the scenes that needs to be smashed.

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And so what's happening is that you have a lot of things that are conspiring to create the situation where in any kind of, you know, fornication, like voluntary fornication that's happening in university campuses or wherever it's happening, you're living in a society right now that views men as villains and women, innocent victims.

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Okay. So then like the calculus that happens is that every time two people voluntarily fornicate, it's the man's fault.

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Okay. So it's basically the man's fault and you can't blame the woman in any way.

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And then she, like men are by definition because they're like issue. You think about these things as it relates to power dynamics and are involved in any kind of encounter.

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The guy is going to be viewed as the rapist because he's stronger than her. Yeah. And like the, you know, even going so far as like,

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Hey, a woman can revoke her consent even after, you know, like it, like it's already been, it's done and gone and then they can still, you know, well, now that I've thought about it,

20:00

I never wanted to do that. I felt slightly pressured, you know, or something like that. Or no, I don't feel good about it anymore.

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Or you didn't call me next week or whatever, whatever it is. Like, like the issue is now at this point, um,

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I can, none of that's good. I mean, like hookup culture is bad. Like, and you know, there's a sense in which it's like, well,

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I play stupid games, get stupid prizes, but it's all nonsense, right? Like it's all like the rules are all nonsense.

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Like the Bible has rules for what constitutes rape and what constitutes consensual fornication.

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And they don't involve like, issues of just determining the gender of the person, a priority and making assumptions about power dynamics and everything else.

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But so you think about what's happening is promiscuity is on the rise. Okay. And then you're in an egalitarian society that basically demands that you have to view men and women as the same.

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So at the view of men and women as fundamentally same in every kind of way. Okay. And so then you're trying to hold them to the same standards.

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And so there used to be like in a, you know, a double standard as it relates to, it would be worse for a lady to sleep around than for a man.

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And now like, we're trying to remove that kind of assumption. And basically it's all the same.

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Okay. So it's all the same. And then it's the man's fault. And then, you know, women are going to do it anyways. And then because women are victims, you can't shame them.

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You can't blame them. You have to have their back, right? You have to basically take their side in every way. And so you take all those things together.

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And what you have is you have a situation where our society is basically just shouting at people to say,

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Hey, like woman is like liberated. She's, she's a liberated female, right? So she doesn't, she doesn't need a man.

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She's created independent of man. She doesn't need him. She's just okay by herself. Whatever she does, she needs to be encouraged and validated and affirmed, you know, for who she is.

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Right. Right. And so then, so basically, and because she's a victim, you have to treat her like a victim in every single one of these encounters.

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And so all of those things are conspiring to produce this situation where like slut shaming is like the worst thing you could possibly do right now, which is really,

22:05

I mean, it's pretty strange. If you think about it, like how, how can you at the same time, and I've wondered this so often, but how can you at the same time be, you know, the greatest victim there is, and also empowered and, you know, independent, those things, those feel like two contradictory things to be experiencing at the same exact time.

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Well, I mean, and it's totally bizarre, but then you think about it, like, that's like, that's,

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I mean, it doesn't, it just not meant to make any sense. Okay. And that's why you have the mess you're in.

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But then think about it, like, you know, on the opposite side, if a guy like sleeps around with a lot of women, you, there's any number of like pejoratives that you could use to describe that guy.

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Okay. Like, meaning like, he's not like you, there's no, like, um, there's no ceasefire on slut shaming as it relates to men.

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Do you see what I'm saying? Right. Yeah. Like none of the rules apply to, to men like to, so to a man who's like a player or whatever, or like you, you, you can, he, you can, you can say whatever you want to say about him.

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You can call him an abuser. I mean, that's kind of the typical way that you, you know, you, uh, people go with the abuse kind of language is that, but like, he's fair game, but the woman is totally off limits.

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And these kinds of encounters. And so now in order, and just to be clear, I mean, we're not trying to encourage that, you know, we're not trying to say that it's like,

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God views it as okay or permissible for a guy to be sexually immoral.

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You made my qualification for me. Okay. Well, you know, yeah. But, you know, it's like, yeah, obvious.

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Like, I mean, it feels like we shouldn't even have to say that because the Bible is very clear, but then, you know, it sounds like, what you're saying is, is not that,

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Hey, it's okay for the guy to do it. It's not okay for the girl to do it. It's just to say that it's not okay for either of them to do it, but it is okay to shame the guy who is doing something wrong.

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And it's not okay to shame the girl who is doing something wrong. And so like the issue is the moment you point out those kinds of inconsistencies, people think that you're speaking out of some kind of bitterness or you have some kind of chip on your shoulder, or you have some, but like the issue is like, that's not what's happening.

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What's happening is, is that you have to open your eyes and you have to look at what's happening. And you say, Hey, does this make sense?

24:32

You know, is this logical? I guess it's reasonable. Or so when you notice these dramatic shifts in the way that you are allowed to talk to particular genders on these topics, like when you notice that, you have to say, well, what's going on?

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And is that good or not? You know, does that honor the Lord, that there's this massive double standard like this?

24:54

So, what's happening is, you're living in a society right now that demands that you praise a woman's independence and her sexual independence and her sexual liberation.

25:06

You have to praise that, and then you basically turn men into the biggest rapists, by definition, scoundrels.

25:14

And so, there's just a massive double standard, and then you have to praise that. Petey And I want to say, I said that word liberation, but then it's obviously not a liberation in any way, whatsoever.

25:25

It's just... Jared You're free to be a slave. Petey Yeah, you're free to be a slave to sin. Congratulations.

25:31

How great. Jared Well, I mean, it's the liberation that Satan promised that resulted in the fall, right?

25:36

So it's that kind of liberation. Hey, you can be free, you know, but literally, you know that you're shackled like a slave to your sin. So, the issue...

25:43

So, part of what's going on is that dynamic. There's a dynamic where you can't shame a woman for being promiscuous anymore, okay?

25:52

But you can with a man, because he's a rapist, and he's a man, and who cares, right? He's a villain by definition.

25:59

You can't with a woman. So part of it's that. Now, then what's happening, there's another layer that's happening onto that, okay?

26:06

So, what you have is you have like the red -pilled, the manosphere kind of types who are saying, hey, this isn't really good for society, right?

26:20

This isn't good for society, and it's like particularly hard on women. So when women just sleep around, you know, when women become, in the language of Eric Hahn, well -used mattresses, when that happens, it really, it seems to mess with women a lot more than it messes with men.

26:39

And it keeps women from really being able to, you know,

26:47

I'm not wanting to say this like in some sort of absolute language, but I mean it really, like the greater degree to which a woman sleeps around before marriage, the harder it is for her to enjoy intimacy with her husband, the harder it is for her to like attach emotionally to her husband.

27:01

Like it, like these things are real, and you're not really allowed to talk about them, but then the red -pilled people are talking about them.

27:08

So like you have the red -pilled people who are basically the ones who are out there saying, hey, we need to return to what we lost in a certain sense, like we need to start praising virginity again.

27:18

And one of the things that happened before is like we used to shame whores, right? So we shamed women for being whores.

27:24

And they didn't want to be a whore, so they didn't sleep around with anyone who asked, okay? So like that shame was like a mechanism that kept people afraid, right?

27:36

So we still have, like the issue is we still have those mechanisms right now, like we have those mechanisms, and like just think about how you respond to a pedophile.

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So when, like right now, like with the person who rapes a child or something like that, once a pedophile, always a pedophile, you're going to get that scarlet letter your whole life, that's who you are, that's your identity, that's like it doesn't matter if you become a

27:59

Christian or not, like that's how society is going to view you, that's who you always are going to be, you're always going to be viewed with a cloud of distrust and suspicion and everything else.

28:09

Now without commenting on like whether, fully on whether or not that's like a desire, like that's the way to handle sins of any kind, you know,

28:20

I think there's obviously a category for sexual or some of you in the Bible to where you can be free of these permanent lifelong scarlet letter kind of things if you legitimately repent and all that, but like the issue is we have a category for like people being so afraid of getting that label on them that it actually prevents them from doing the wicked things in their hearts, okay?

28:42

Right. So like that, like the shame that's attached to that sexual sin is still in the minds of people, like there's,

28:51

I'm sure there's been plenty of person who, you know, minor attracted person, what a joke, who didn't act on it because they didn't want to be on a sex offender list the rest of their whole life and didn't want to have that kind of thing coming down upon them, right?

29:05

And so in that way, like the Bible does have a category for shame as a sexual mechanism that prevent, like is a curve to immorality in that way, so you know, in the language of the

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Old Testament, like with capital punishment laws and everything else, all would hear and fear and never again do such wicked things.

29:24

There's categories for like shame in the Bible, there's categories for punishment in the Bible. When Miriam disrespected

29:30

Moses, you know, God shames Miriam, if her father had not spit in her face, wouldn't she have to go outside the camp, you know, for 12 days or whatever it was.

29:42

You know, so he gave her leprosy and she had to go outside the camp in order to shame her because what she did was fundamentally embarrassing.

29:49

So we've basically, part of what's happening is we have categories for these kind of things. It used to be attached to whoredom, like particularly for women, like because of how destructive it is for women in particular, like meaning like how much it, like they're not made to give themselves to every man, they are made to attach to men, you know, so and particularly attach to men they give themselves to, and the more they attach to people and attach to people, they lose the ability to keep on doing that as much as they, like it's gonna be a hard road, you know.

30:19

So like the issue is we used to shame that, we're not allowed to shame it anymore, okay? And so now the red pill people, the manosphere people, they're basically saying, hey, you know, it's not good for like women to sleep around, like virginity is good, and then they're coming along saying, yeah, you know, we want women without tattoos who are virgins, who know how to cook, and you know, like, which

30:44

I mean, it's just largely just sane biblical stuff, you know, like that's. Yeah. Homemaker type, yeah.

30:51

I mean, that's largely sane, but then part of the problem is that, right, so here's what's happening. So you have two, you have a clash that's happening.

30:57

So you have the thou shalt not slut shame women to live impulses that people have, you have the red pill kind of guys who, you know, manosphere kind of guys who are saying, hey, no, we need to make, you know, whoredom shameful again, right?

31:12

And I'm largely on board with that project, like somehow like if you want society to shift, you have to share the gospel and transform the society for sure.

31:21

But I mean, how you do that, you know, what's gonna happen when the society is transformed is that virginity won't once again be prized and whoredom will be shameful again.

31:32

And so you have to get to a point where it's shameful again. But then what's happening is you have like a bunch of Christian women who were formerly promiscuous and this is a dynamic that you're talking about.

31:43

So they're formerly promiscuous and they're responding to the situation in more of an emotional way and less of a logical way, okay?

31:53

So what's happening is, and it's mostly the ladies who are getting worked up about it, like they're responding in an emotional way because it's like, hey,

32:00

I was forgiven. I don't want to wear the scarlet letter my whole life. And what the red -paled guys are doing is they're basically looking at them and saying, hey, once a whore, always a whore.

32:08

You wear the scarlet letter for the rest of your life. What they're doing is they're treating them just like we currently treat pedophiles.

32:14

Does that make sense? Yeah. And then like there's a massive overreact, like there's a massive reaction to say, hey, you know,

32:21

God forgave me of that. Such were some of you. I don't have to be, you know, whoever my name is, the harlot for the rest of my life.

32:28

God forgave me and restored me and cleaned me up, you know? So but then, you know, at that point, basically the, like the manosphere is kind of an overreaction the opposite way and to like a dramatic, you know, 180 that we've taken as a society.

32:47

And then you don't have anyone who's calm, clear -headed in the middle saying, hey, we have to figure out how to make fornication shameful again.

32:57

So step like we have to actually make it shameful again. And what that's going to mean is that like we have to get to a point where we view this as a really bad thing.

33:07

Like we do other sexual sins, right? And so we have to get to a point where we like we do view this as deeply shameful.

33:14

And then we also have a category for forgiveness. But it's not just like a cheap forgiveness, like, hey, you, you slept with 50 people and it's like it never happened, man.

33:26

You know, like I, I don't, I guess you're a virgin again, I guess you're, yeah, I mean, there's like, like, there has to be some way for people to like, wake up and say, hey, it would actually be good for society if we once again turn this into a taboo in order to make everyone afraid, like to not go down that road, because there's so many problems down that road too.

33:47

So there's just so what's happening is you have people who are overreacting to the manosphere basically, and throwing the baby out of the bathwater.

33:55

And then they just sound like a bunch of raving feminists at that point, as it relates to this point where it's just like, they're just, and they don't even realize what's happening, like that they're just being maneuvered into this spot where they're like, holding up the banner to the thou shalt not slut shame.

34:11

You can't do that under any circumstances, because, because, you know, like what you don't want to do is you don't want to put like a repentant person in the position to where they may feel the slightest, you know, tinge of shame over their past actions or something like that.

34:27

So basically, what you have to do is you have to kind of give, give women like an absolute blank check to sleep around with no consequences, because, you know, as the logic goes, if they may want to come to Christ one day, and then they want to, and if they do come to Christ one day, then they can all be wiped clean.

34:46

And so what you lose is you lose any ability to like discourage it on the front end.

34:52

Does that make sense? Because you, because you're, because you, you know, in the minds, they can't, they don't have a category for saying, hey, we have to figure out how to discourage this on the front end and not just like clean up the mess afterwards, you know, and there is a big mess afterwards.

35:08

And so, so basically, you're in this situation where you're basically saying, hey, yeah, you know, go, you know, do heroin for years and drink, because I wouldn't want you to feel bad if you repent one day and come to Christ as if you did anything wrong.

35:24

So, I'm basically just going to give you a blank check to do all that, you know, and so like any, there's no mechanism you have basically of saying, hey, this is really bad, don't do it, and people should be horrified if you do, you know, kind of thing anymore.

35:36

Right. Right. Now, I saw a lot of people were also arguing that, hey, you know, you know,

35:45

I don't want to like, it seemed like a lot of people were saying, hey,

35:51

God wants us to marry whores. Pete Yeah. It seems like they were arguing that.

35:58

I, there's a part of my brain that wants to refuse to, like, I must be misunderstanding what they're saying, but there's, you know, there's, they're encouraging people to think about marrying someone who has, you know, who has been with multiple sexual partners as if, well, it kind of like you said earlier, as if they are a virgin, as if they are just as equally desirable as a virgin, as someone who's never had a sexual partner before.

36:28

And in my mind, it seems a lot more like it is objectively, I mean, just, just objectively better.

36:36

So not, so not, it's not up to personal preference, you know, it's not up to like this or that.

36:44

It's, it's objectively better to marry someone who is a virgin as opposed to someone who has been sexually active, you know, for however long, however many partners they've, they've had, what, you know, however high their quote -unquote body count is, like, it's objectively worse to marry the person who has had multiple sexual partners.

37:09

So, is that, you know, is that something we see in the Bible? Is that the way that people should think about it?

37:15

Like, hey, it is objectively, you have, you know, you have two women equal in every way, uh, except, which

37:24

I think you have to, you know, I think that's probably impossible in reality that they're equal in every way simply because of, of this difference in, you know, one's a virgin versus one has been sexually active.

37:38

But let's just, you know, let's just pretend that that can be true. It's still objectively better to pursue the one who remained a virgin.

37:49

Is that right? Um, yeah. I spent all that time,

37:56

I spent all that time laying all that out, you know, spelling everything out and then, and then you just give me a, yeah.

38:04

It's, um, so what's happening is you're not allowed to do the move that you make.

38:09

So, you're not allowed to say, you know, Ceteris Paribus, all other things being equal, you know, virgin or not virgin, virgin is better.

38:16

So, what's happening is you're not allowed to do that. But then that's like, essentially, and this is what's like, where the manosphere and a lot of like the, you know,

38:26

Christian women in particular online, they're just talking past each other. So, men are making those, like most of the manosphere, they're making the kind of qualification that you just made.

38:36

So, they're basically saying all other things being equal, like this is obviously more desirable than the other thing, that's what they're saying.

38:42

And, you know, but so then what's, um, what it's being heard on the other side, particularly, you know, from ladies is, um, that, you know, you're just, you're damaged goods and you're done and, you know, there's no hope of redemption for you.

38:57

That's who you're always going to be and everything else. And I mean, I just, I think there has to be some way to regain a sense of the obvious.

39:07

So, I mean - Pete Well, you know, I mean, it's the same as any other sin. I mean, like any other sin, you have to accept the consequences of your actions, you know, here in this world right now.

39:21

So, if you're a murderer and you get caught murdering and you get sent to jail for life and then you become a

39:29

Christian, you know, while you're being sent to jail, you should be able to say, hey,

39:34

God has forgiven me, you know, for committing murder, but he has not freed me from the worldly consequences of my own sin and I'm okay with that because, you know,

39:49

I understand that ultimately I am forgiven, but I have to pay for what

39:55

I've done here now in this life and there's consequences to it. And it's like that with any sin now and every sin might not have the same, you know, magnitude of consequences like committing murder, for example, but it just seems like that should be the normal response for a

40:14

Christian who understands, you know, who understands the gravity of what they've done, but then for some reason we don't have that sort of expectation when it comes to someone who's been, you know, who's been sexually active outside of marriage.

40:33

Yeah, it's a bizarre thing to think about in general and part of what's happening is you have, you just have a thoughtlessness, like just an inability to make basic category distinctions and part of what's happening is just men and women are different.

40:48

So, men are often when they're talking about these kinds of topics, they're talking about them in a logical way, they're talking about them like based on what's logically consistent and they're thinking about these things more in terms of principle.

41:03

But then, you know, ladies when they're talking about these things, they're primarily talking about them through the lens of emotion at this point.

41:10

And men and women are different. So, women have the, like when they're talking about this kind of topic, it is like being filtered through this lens, like this emotional reaction that they're having, but the reaction is designed to protect the weak and, you know, the perceived victim.

41:25

So, like the whole game on the woman's side of things is they're thinking about this through the lens of like sheltering women from harsh truths that are uncomfortable and unpleasant.

41:36

So, they're playing like the mama bear role where they're just trying to protect the child from danger. Does that make sense?

41:42

Pete Sure, yeah. Jared The man is basically trying to protect them from danger too, but then the issue is he's trying to protect them through the truth, okay?

41:51

Pete Yeah, he's trying to protect them from the real danger. Jared Right, the real danger. So, the Bible talks about like faithful the wounds of a friend and profuse are the kisses of an enemy.

42:01

And what's happening here is that a lot of women will just lie to each other in order to shield them from these harsh realities or whatever.

42:10

And it's just, I saw one of those internet things that scrolled on Twitter where the guys were, like you had the girls who were rating the guys, girls who were rating each other and then the guys who were rating the girls or whatever.

42:25

And you had like the over, like all the girls, they rated the most overweight girl the most attractive, okay?

42:33

Pete Girl, you're a 10. Don't let nobody tell you you're not a 10. You're a 10.

42:39

Jared They all had to rate each other, right? So, the girls, like they all rated the overweight one the most attractive.

42:45

So, they got in the line or whatever from least attractive. They put her up there in order to shelter her from the truth.

42:51

But then when the guys rated them afterwards, she went to the back of the line. Now, I mean, it's just one of those things where it's just like,

43:01

I don't know what, like you can lie to women, but you're not helping them, you know? So, if you tell them to sleep around, there's no consequences to that.

43:08

They're going to make an equal marriage partner with everyone else. All you're doing is lying to them. And so, like you may get all the women around you to say it, but that isn't like if you want to get married one day, then they're not really the ones you have to convince.

43:21

So, I mean, like, you know, guys, you can be mad at the way guys think all day long, but like they just think the way they think.

43:33

But so, but you think about this on any other axis. I mean, like, think, so you have, you know, ceteris paribus, all other things being equal.

43:40

You have two godly Christian men. One has like a job that makes $30 ,000 a year.

43:46

The other one has a job that makes $100 ,000 a year. Who's the better marriage partner? Well, obviously the $30 ,000.

43:55

All right. So, but then that's, you would only say a person only would say that if you're trying to protect, you know, the poor guy who didn't maybe make the best decisions from feeling bad.

44:09

Yeah, he went to college instead of becoming a welder or a plumber or something. Yeah, that's true too.

44:16

But I mean, that's still, but you see what I'm saying? Like all other things being equal, who's the better marriage partner?

44:21

Obviously the guy who makes more. Why? Well, because, you know, man is his job to provide for a household and he's obviously going to do a better job than the other guy.

44:31

And so all their things being equal, that's the desirable trait, but you can do this on any access, on any axis, right?

44:37

So whether you're talking about moral acts or non -moral kind of issues, like this is just the way it works now.

44:43

But then when you think about like how these things actually work in the Bible, I mean, God set up the whole sexual ethic in the old covenant based on the reality of trying to at all costs guard people's virginity.

44:55

Like that's the whole thing, man. Right. Like, I mean, that's the whole thing. And that's where you, you know, as you read the

45:00

Bible, you run across some very uncomfortable laws for today.

45:06

I mean, like, you know, if we've already stepped on, you know, a lot of anthills or whatever, I mean, just imagine the kind of things that are actually in the

45:14

Bible as it relates to this topic. So like, meaning like if a woman gets married to a man, right?

45:23

And the man doesn't find evidence of virginity, meaning she had slept around, they were told to stone her to death with stones, like kill her, right?

45:32

If a guy in under the old covenant, if a guy were to sleep with a girl, they were told to get married, right?

45:41

Yeah. Like if a guy were to like actually rape a girl in the old covenant, they're told like he has to marry her, right?

45:51

The father can refuse it, but he has to marry her essentially and pay for her. And he's not allowed to divorce her his whole life in that way.

45:59

So like that's in the Bible, like, and you're not allowed to talk about it, but that served the function essentially, like those kinds of passages, they serve the function of basically saying, hey, you can't just sleep around, okay?

46:13

So once you sleep with a girl, like something spiritual is happening, there's a joining there that happens, you need to recognize what happens in a legal way.

46:22

Like that's the way the old covenant is set up. So like a woman sleeping around like and not letting anyone know, and she's betrothed to a man, she gets killed, right?

46:31

Like the whole Old Testament economy is basically set up to guard this issue of virginity in that way in some very strict ways.

46:41

And so it was obviously important to God, and he says that sexual sin is like a unique kind of sin, you know, this unlike all other sins, and it would obviously be better for a society if everyone would get married having only slept with one person.

46:55

That would obviously be the best thing for a society. There would be far less wounds and dishonor, there would be far less guilt and shame and condemnation.

47:03

You know, there'd be far less out -of -wedlock pregnancies, there'd be far less abortions.

47:10

I mean, can you imagine like if we somehow figured out as a society to make it normal that everyone would marry a virgin, right?

47:20

The thing that stands in opposition against that is this idea that, well, you can't shame people if they don't make that choice anymore, right?

47:31

Right, yeah. Obviously, that's the thing that's standing in the way of like getting to a society where your kids could grow up and basically have options to marry people who save themselves for marriage is because we basically just said, hey, it's unrealistic.

47:46

It's not going to happen anymore. We're just too far. The rot's too far gone. There's nothing we can do about it.

47:52

So now what we need to do is like forget playing defense anymore and just be ready to comfort people after they do what they're going to do, right?

48:04

Right, yeah. So it's just a mess. There just has to be some way to restore some sense of shame to couples who are doing shameless things, individuals who are doing shameless things.

48:18

There has to be some way to restore a sense of shame and guilt to it, but it's not going to be found by just like pretending as if, yeah, the girl who slept with 50 people is just as good of a marriage partner as the one who didn't sleep with anyone.

48:35

It's like, well, that isn't really the way it works here. That doesn't feel like it's the same.

48:42

No, I mean, obviously, if you had to pick between a pagan who's a virgin and a woman who slept with 50 people who was a

48:51

Christian, I mean, obviously, yeah, you go with the Christian at that point. Or hold on, you know? Yeah, so it's not like the end -all be -all criteria.

49:00

But I mean, you can't pretend as if God didn't treat it with the utmost seriousness in the

49:09

Old Testament and in the New. So if you do that, you're just kind of ignoring basically the whole sexual ethic of the

49:17

Bible. Now, my last question quickly, and it's one that we've covered before, but I wanted to ask it again just because it kind of feels like one of those questions that we're just going to have to answer over and over and over and over again for years and years and years before people start coming around to a better understanding of the

49:37

Bible. But you have examples like, I think, Hosea, the prophet

49:42

Hosea, where God tells him, commands him to go marry a prostitute, you know, someone who would be defined as a whore.

49:53

So that is obvious proof that, you know, this whole conversation that we've just had has been a waste of time, and we're totally wrong.

50:03

Right, Tim? Jared That's the provisionalist perspective. I don't know if that's like the Leighton Flowers fan account or something like that, but what that is, but they were making that argument essentially that, hey, you need to go reread, you know,

50:17

Hosea, where God tells Hosea to marry a whore. It's like, yeah, I mean, come on, you have to actually read the story, man.

50:26

Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, you got to read the story. Like, this wasn't like a go -do -like -wise.

50:36

This was an object lesson, right? So he gets the prophet to do the shameful thing, to marry this whore, to show them what it's like for him to be married to them, right?

50:48

And it wasn't like a, oh, well, I love you so much. This wasn't like a plan.

50:55

Hey, you know, Israel, I want you to be like me and go marry someone in the midst of their whoredom or something like that.

51:01

Like, you need to go find the biggest prostitute you can find. Pete If you want to honor me, you better.

51:08

Jared In fact, it would honor me more. Oh, no, I mean, that is not the point at all.

51:15

Like, that was like, that's just totally not the point. The point was just to say, hey, I'm going to get this prophet to do this shameful thing, to be an object lesson to the people so they could see, you know, what they're like, you know, and what they're like as a woman who he marries the prostitute and, you know, has kids with her.

51:33

He tries to turn her into a housewife or whatever. And she leaves him and he goes back to her. He tries to fix her, but that's not, you know, so, you know, the

51:42

Bible does say, marry whom you will only marry in the Lord. And certainly, like whatever

51:47

Hosea is doing, it's not a command for Christians to marry, you know, women who are defined by gross immorality in the hopes of trying to clean them up or something like that.

51:56

But yeah, no, I mean, just to bring it around full circle, this is one of those topics where. Pete Wait, wait, real quick.

52:03

Is he the same prophet that was commanded to cook his own feces? I don't think that was Hosea. I can't remember who that was, but.

52:10

So, should we be obeying that one? Was that another go and do likewise? Go and do, yeah. Go and do likewise, but.

52:19

Imitate Hosea as he imitates God. Oh, no. Oh, okay.

52:25

Anyway, moving on. Bring us back, bring us back. Yeah. The issue is, you know, with what's happening is right now, there's this absolute rule that the left has, you know, forced upon Christians here to where it's viewed as more shameful to call a woman like what she actually is, right?

52:51

Like in that way, like to accurately describe her behavior than to like for her to actually engage in that behavior.

52:57

And that tells you that something's wrong, right? Yeah. So, like, if it's more shameful to accurately describe the behavior, like the used mattress kind of thing, right?

53:07

If it's more, like, it's more shameful to accurately describe it than to actually engage in it. And that tells you that our sense of right and wrong is just fundamentally skewed at this point.

53:18

Yeah, absolutely. Like we need to get to, we need to get to a point again where it's deeply embarrassing and shameful to engage in that behavior.

53:28

And, you know, that's not an enemy of like repentance. Like the issue is that, you know, what

53:34

Satan's plan is, is to keep people from ever experiencing guilt and shame and condemnation at all.

53:41

And when you do that, you are preventing them from, like you're basically teaching them to suppress the conviction of the

53:48

Holy Spirit. That's what you're doing. So, you're basically just teaching them to harden their conscience, to sear their conscience and not be sensitive to conviction anymore.

53:57

And when you do that, I mean, there's no, there's no need, like those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick,

54:02

I didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Like we need to bring guilt and shame back.

54:07

Like that's what we need to bring. Now, not in the manosphere kind of way. Like we're not, not to where it's just like, hey, permanent shame and condemnation forever.

54:14

You're used, you know, damaged goods, whatever, like forever. I mean, there needs to be a, there needs to be some way to say, hey, you're engaging in things that are destructive and deeply shameful, and you need to repent of that.

54:27

And they're wrong. And then at the same time, hey, when you do repent, like we're going to, we're going to rejoice just like the angels in heaven are going to rejoice.

54:36

But at the same time, you know, just as, like there has to be some way of saying like the obvious, like just as like if you have a homosexual who repents of his sins and believes the good news comes to Christ after having 200, you know, partners, gay partners or something like that, yeah, it may be that, you know, most of the

54:58

Christian women who didn't do anything like that, they may be a little wary of you and a little bit cautious around you and want to see a long track record of repentance.

55:09

And like, so if you think about that only as it relates to the individual, like the responsibility to that individual, you might think, well,

55:17

I guess we need to just not make that a factor in anything that we're thinking about at all, unless we create some kind of two -tiered system in the church or something like that.

55:26

But then if you're thinking about it at a broader level, you know, as it relates to the health of society, yeah, you know what?

55:32

It would be better if we could all just start to make these things shameful again so that people would be too afraid to do them, okay?

55:39

Pete Right. Jared So they'd be too afraid to do them. And then like the issue is, you know, like people, you know, the messier your past is, you're going to look for someone who also has an equally messy path and God connects those two people together, cleans them up together and everything else that's generally the way it works.

55:54

But then it would obviously be better for society, for individuals not to just say, hey, let me go out and find the person who's sinned the most and the most reprehensible and heinous ways in order to be an example of the gospel.

56:06

I mean, like what you, like you don't, I joked to Brown with that, with the, like general, you just have to restore some sense of sanity.

56:16

I mean, it's like, hey, boys, let's go to the, you know, the brothel and go find some wives that we're going to try to evangelize here or something.

56:23

It's like that isn't, I mean, that isn't the plan here, you know? So there has to be some way to say, hey, yes,

56:30

God can forgive you. Yes, God can cleanse you. Yeah, you don't have to wear that badge of shame forever. Yeah, he can take your guilt, he can cast it in the sea and, you know, remember it no more.

56:39

And at the same time, it's like, yeah, you know what? Like if you go on a murder spree, you may cut off some of your marriage prospects and for good reason, you know?

56:48

It's like, yeah, I probably wouldn't encourage my daughter to, you know, marry the first convicted con, you know, ex -felon that she can, because he, you know, he seems nice or whatever.

57:01

Like, it's like, well, honey, we need to exercise a lot more caution with this one and watch this for a lot longer time and make sure that this is legit, you know?

57:10

And so, I mean, that's just part of life and that's just the way life works is that, hey, when you engage in scandalous sin, there may be a long road that it takes to help everyone to see that this is legit and this, you know, that you're a fundamentally different transformed person to the degree of heinousness that your sin has and that's just part of it, you know?

57:30

So, I just think people have to quit thinking about these things so emotionally and start thinking about them more clearly for sure.

57:37

Pete Okay, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on. So, thank you,

57:43

Tim, for walking us through that and answering a bunch of my questions. Hopefully, the conversation was something that can provide a lot more clarity on the situation and, too, like I think you said a lot earlier in the episode, serve as sort of the sane person in the middle who's not going so far to say, like, hey, you know, once a whore, always a whore.

58:08

There's no room for forgiveness. This is the unforgivable sin, you know, Christ's blood cannot cover this, you know, this can't, you know, there's no life, there's no eternal life for this person after they've committed this kind of sin and, you know, not, but then also not being on the other side that's saying, like, hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with behaving this way and you are just as desirable as the person who has zero sexual partners and any man who tells you otherwise is just a, you know, a bigot or a, you know,

58:43

I don't even know what they name call, I guess like a, yeah, a manosphere type guy or something, but our hope is that this conversation can be the reasonable middle ground that's saying, hey, maybe we just trust what

58:59

God has said, you know, and recognize that there is forgiveness while also recognizing that there are worldly consequences to sin and they can last even as long as a whole lifetime, you know, and that's just the reality of sin.

59:16

Sin is ugly, sin kills, sin destroys things and, you know, we all have to deal with the consequences of our own sin.

59:24

So, hopefully the conversation has been encouraging for you guys and has answered a lot of those questions.

59:31

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59:38

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